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Posted to dev@cocoon.apache.org by Sylvain Wallez <sy...@anyware-tech.com> on 2002/06/06 18:29:46 UTC
Cocoon article on JDJ
There's a interesting article introducing Cocoon on the Java Developer's
Journal at http://www.sys-con.com/java/articleprint.cfm?id=1480
Notice how the author states in the intro that Cocoon doesn't have the
visibility it deserves :
>>
Apache Cocoon is one of the most interesting, innovative, and powerful
platforms for dynamic content generation, though not as well known as
the others. A subproject of the Apache XML project, Cocoon is one of the
lesser-known offerings from the folks at the all-open-source Apache
Software Foundation, having garnered less attention than some of its
more popular cousins like Struts. But Cocoon is worth a look.
<<
This once again clearly shows that Cocoon needs marketing !
Sylvain
PS : thanks to Matthew and Guido for the link.
--
Sylvain Wallez
Anyware Technologies Apache Cocoon
http://www.anyware-tech.com mailto:sylvain@apache.org
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RE: Exipires headers (was: Re: Cocoon article on JDJ)
Posted by Carsten Ziegeler <cz...@s-und-n.de>.
Gianugo Rabellino wrote:
>
> The other good news is that the whole Cocoon environment will have the
> Expires information, since it's in the objectModel. This might lead to a
> change in the cache algorithms (I'm waiting for Carsten to finish up his
> event/stream cache unification to have a look at it), taking into
> account even this information.
>
The unification is finished - for now... :)
No, seriously, it's finished and working, but what is needed now, is
feedback if all are satisfied with this approach - so there might be
some minor changes here and there.
The new component is called ProcessingPipeline.
I changed the implementation of the expires headers by moving it from
the code of the tree processor to the implementation of the
ProcessingPipeline - so you will find everything in the
AbstractProcessingPipeline now.
Carsten
Carsten Ziegeler Chief Architect Open Source Group, S&N AG
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Exipires headers (was: Re: Cocoon article on JDJ)
Posted by Gianugo Rabellino <gi...@apache.org>.
Ivelin Ivanov wrote:
> It's sad to read though that:
> 2) Cocoon is not applicable for large scale applications.
> With the new contribution for Expires response header and caching
> improvements, 2) shouldn't be a big deal any more.
> BTW, is Expires checked in already?
Definitely yes, in HEAD only. I still have to understand some quirks in
(reverse) proxy implementations, but it already works like a charm with
clients (browsers). I hope to have it working RSN ar 100% with cachine
enabled reverse proxies, but it already gives a sensible performance
boost as of now.
The other good news is that the whole Cocoon environment will have the
Expires information, since it's in the objectModel. This might lead to a
change in the cache algorithms (I'm waiting for Carsten to finish up his
event/stream cache unification to have a look at it), taking into
account even this information.
Diana: an HOWTO is on the way, I promise :-)
Ciao,
--
Gianugo Rabellino
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RE: Cocoon article on JDJ
Posted by Andy Lewis <aj...@ascii27.net>.
I'm fine with SQUID...my was relating to a way to improive perceived performance of the base
distribution....
>> From: Andy Lewis [mailto:ajl@ascii27.net]
>
>> Just a suggestion here on item 2 - take it for what it is worth.....
>>
>> The recommended way to improve performance is with something
>> like SQUID - a proxy cache. THat is
>> the approahc I take, and by all accounts it works well.
>
> If you combine Tomcat with Apache, you should be able to use the
> mod_proxypass/mod_cache if that is less invasive than installing Squid.
>
> Having an all-Java approach would of course be cool.
>
> </Steven>
--
"The heights of genius are only measurable by the depths of stupidity."
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Re: Cocoon article on JDJ
Posted by Ivelin Ivanov <iv...@apache.org>.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Noels" <st...@outerthought.org>
To: <co...@xml.apache.org>; <aj...@ascii27.net>
Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 11:39 AM
Subject: RE: Cocoon article on JDJ
> > From: Andy Lewis [mailto:ajl@ascii27.net]
>
> > Just a suggestion here on item 2 - take it for what it is worth.....
> >
> > The recommended way to improve performance is with something
> > like SQUID - a proxy cache. THat is
> > the approahc I take, and by all accounts it works well.
And it is working even better in C2.1, since the page Expires feature is in.
>
> If you combine Tomcat with Apache, you should be able to use the
> mod_proxypass/mod_cache if that is less invasive than installing Squid.
>
> Having an all-Java approach would of course be cool.
>
> </Steven>
>
>
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>
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RE: Cocoon article on JDJ
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
> From: Andy Lewis [mailto:ajl@ascii27.net]
> Just a suggestion here on item 2 - take it for what it is worth.....
>
> The recommended way to improve performance is with something
> like SQUID - a proxy cache. THat is
> the approahc I take, and by all accounts it works well.
If you combine Tomcat with Apache, you should be able to use the
mod_proxypass/mod_cache if that is less invasive than installing Squid.
Having an all-Java approach would of course be cool.
</Steven>
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Re: Cocoon article on JDJ
Posted by Andy Lewis <aj...@ascii27.net>.
Just a suggestion here on item 2 - take it for what it is worth.....
The recommended way to improve performance is with something like SQUID - a proxy cache. THat is
the approahc I take, and by all accounts it works well. Unfortunately, "out of the box" Cocoon
doesn't have that, so it appears to be really slow to some people, and therefore is viewed as not
scaling well.
Is there a pure Java solution, perhaps a servlet based proxy-cache, that could be distributed with
Cocoon? Maybe a seperate WAR that includes that functionality configured by default? Not everyone
who is serious with Cocoon will use it, but it might improve the "out of the box" performance
perception.
I kow - that is a lot of work to go to....but perception is reality......
>
> Good article. Inspiring for the new comers.
>
>
> It's sad to read though that:
>
> 1) Cocoon may not catch up with big enough user base, so there is a risk of using it.
> 2) Cocoon is not applicable for large scale applications.
>
> Those new couple books coming out this year will certainly help with 1). Are there folks that
> can help publishing more articles in the computer magazines?
>
>
> With the new contribution for Expires response header and caching
> improvements, 2) shouldn't be a big deal any more.
> BTW, is Expires checked in already?
>
>
> Ivelin
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sylvain Wallez" <sy...@anyware-tech.com>
> To: <co...@xml.apache.org>; <co...@xml.apache.org>
> Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 11:29 AM
> Subject: Cocoon article on JDJ
>
>
>> There's a interesting article introducing Cocoon on the Java Developer's Journal at
>> http://www.sys-con.com/java/articleprint.cfm?id=1480
>>
>> Notice how the author states in the intro that Cocoon doesn't have the visibility it deserves
>> :
>> >>
>> Apache Cocoon is one of the most interesting, innovative, and powerful platforms for dynamic
>> content generation, though not as well known as the others. A subproject of the Apache XML
>> project, Cocoon is one of the lesser-known offerings from the folks at the all-open-source
>> Apache Software Foundation, having garnered less attention than some of its more popular
>> cousins like Struts. But Cocoon is worth a look.
>> <<
>>
>> This once again clearly shows that Cocoon needs marketing !
>>
>> Sylvain
>>
>> PS : thanks to Matthew and Guido for the link.
>>
>> --
>> Sylvain Wallez
>> Anyware Technologies Apache Cocoon
>> http://www.anyware-tech.com mailto:sylvain@apache.org
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- Please check that your
>> question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting.
>> <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faqs.html>
>>
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <co...@xml.apache.org> For additional commands,
>> e-mail: <co...@xml.apache.org>
>>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail:
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--
"The heights of genius are only measurable by the depths of stupidity."
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Exipires headers (was: Re: Cocoon article on JDJ)
Posted by Gianugo Rabellino <gi...@apache.org>.
Ivelin Ivanov wrote:
> It's sad to read though that:
> 2) Cocoon is not applicable for large scale applications.
> With the new contribution for Expires response header and caching
> improvements, 2) shouldn't be a big deal any more.
> BTW, is Expires checked in already?
Definitely yes, in HEAD only. I still have to understand some quirks in
(reverse) proxy implementations, but it already works like a charm with
clients (browsers). I hope to have it working RSN ar 100% with cachine
enabled reverse proxies, but it already gives a sensible performance
boost as of now.
The other good news is that the whole Cocoon environment will have the
Expires information, since it's in the objectModel. This might lead to a
change in the cache algorithms (I'm waiting for Carsten to finish up his
event/stream cache unification to have a look at it), taking into
account even this information.
Diana: an HOWTO is on the way, I promise :-)
Ciao,
--
Gianugo Rabellino
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RE: Cocoon article on JDJ
Posted by Rick Wayne <fe...@facstaff.wisc.edu>.
On Mon, 2002-06-10 at 03:01, Matthew Langham wrote:
> Something we have noticed is the lack of Cocoon presentations at
> conferences. We have submitted 3 for the coming ApacheCon but we have
> noticed that we seem to be the only people submitting anything. Is this the
> case?
>
> And there is only 1 presentation on Cocoon at the O'Reilly OSCC in July -
> which is way tooo few!
matthew, i happened to run across this old note pursuant to some
research, and thought i'd let you know that i did a class at Software
Development West 2002, and will be submitting another for next spring.
so maybe there's a little hope!
(the research, BTW, was for an item in SD magazine's "New & Noteworthy"
column: a bit on cocoon 2.0, and another on the book, for which i thank
you and carsten!)
rw
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Re: Cocoon article on JDJ
Posted by Ivelin Ivanov <iv...@apache.org>.
Thanks for letting us know Mathew.
I hope you'll add the links to these articles and ApacheCon
presentations in the Cocoon Links pages.
Matthew Langham wrote:
> Ivelin wrote:
>
>
> Those new couple books coming out this year will certainly help with 1).
> Are there folks that can help publishing more articles in the computer
> magazines?
> <<
>
> Carsten and I have written 2 articles on Cocoon for German IT magazines this
> year. We have another one planned for xml.com in July.
>
> Something we have noticed is the lack of Cocoon presentations at
> conferences. We have submitted 3 for the coming ApacheCon but we have
> noticed that we seem to be the only people submitting anything. Is this the
> case?
>
> And there is only 1 presentation on Cocoon at the O'Reilly OSCC in July -
> which is way tooo few!
>
> Matthew
>
> --
> Open Source Group Cocoon { Consulting, Training, Projects }
> =================================================================
> Matthew Langham, S&N AG, Klingenderstrasse 5, D-33100 Paderborn
> Tel:+49-5251-1581-30 mlangham@s-und-n.de - http://www.s-und-n.de
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Cocoon book:
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735712352/needacake-20
> =================================================================
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ivelin Ivanov [mailto:ivelin@apache.org]
> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 5:45 AM
> To: cocoon-users@xml.apache.org; cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Cocoon article on JDJ
>
>
>
> Good article. Inspiring for the new comers.
>
>
> It's sad to read though that:
>
> 1) Cocoon may not catch up with big enough user base, so there is a risk of
> using it.
> 2) Cocoon is not applicable for large scale applications.
>
> Those new couple books coming out this year will certainly help with 1).
> Are there folks that can help publishing more articles in the computer
> magazines?
>
>
> With the new contribution for Expires response header and caching
> improvements, 2) shouldn't be a big deal any more.
> BTW, is Expires checked in already?
>
>
> Ivelin
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sylvain Wallez" <sy...@anyware-tech.com>
> To: <co...@xml.apache.org>; <co...@xml.apache.org>
> Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 11:29 AM
> Subject: Cocoon article on JDJ
>
>
>
>>There's a interesting article introducing Cocoon on the Java Developer's
>>Journal at http://www.sys-con.com/java/articleprint.cfm?id=1480
>>
>>Notice how the author states in the intro that Cocoon doesn't have the
>>visibility it deserves :
>> >>
>>Apache Cocoon is one of the most interesting, innovative, and powerful
>>platforms for dynamic content generation, though not as well known as
>>the others. A subproject of the Apache XML project, Cocoon is one of the
>>lesser-known offerings from the folks at the all-open-source Apache
>>Software Foundation, having garnered less attention than some of its
>>more popular cousins like Struts. But Cocoon is worth a look.
>><<
>>
>>This once again clearly shows that Cocoon needs marketing !
>>
>>Sylvain
>>
>>PS : thanks to Matthew and Guido for the link.
>>
>>--
>>Sylvain Wallez
>> Anyware Technologies Apache Cocoon
>> http://www.anyware-tech.com mailto:sylvain@apache.org
>>
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Please check that your question has not already been answered in the
>>FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faqs.html>
>>
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: <co...@xml.apache.org>
>>For additional commands, e-mail: <co...@xml.apache.org>
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Please check that your question has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faqs.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <co...@xml.apache.org>
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>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
--
-= Ivelin =-
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RE: Cocoon article on JDJ
Posted by Andreas Kuehne <ak...@yahoo.com>.
Hi Matthew,
> Something we have noticed is the lack of Cocoon presentations at
> conferences. We have submitted 3 for the coming ApacheCon but we have
> noticed that we seem to be the only people submitting anything. Is this the
> case?
I would be eager to do some presentatitions on Cocoon, but as a relative newbie ( 'till now got
just one commercial site to production ), I don't want to tap on your toes !!
But it's a problem that people don't like to have dry conceptual presentations but success
stories. Most of the companies don't want to have their internal structures presented to potential
hackers. What's your experience ?
Regards
Andreas K.
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RE: Cocoon article on JDJ
Posted by Matthew Langham <ml...@s-und-n.de>.
Ivelin wrote:
>>
Those new couple books coming out this year will certainly help with 1).
Are there folks that can help publishing more articles in the computer
magazines?
<<
Carsten and I have written 2 articles on Cocoon for German IT magazines this
year. We have another one planned for xml.com in July.
Something we have noticed is the lack of Cocoon presentations at
conferences. We have submitted 3 for the coming ApacheCon but we have
noticed that we seem to be the only people submitting anything. Is this the
case?
And there is only 1 presentation on Cocoon at the O'Reilly OSCC in July -
which is way tooo few!
Matthew
--
Open Source Group Cocoon { Consulting, Training, Projects }
=================================================================
Matthew Langham, S&N AG, Klingenderstrasse 5, D-33100 Paderborn
Tel:+49-5251-1581-30 mlangham@s-und-n.de - http://www.s-und-n.de
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Cocoon book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735712352/needacake-20
=================================================================
-----Original Message-----
From: Ivelin Ivanov [mailto:ivelin@apache.org]
Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 5:45 AM
To: cocoon-users@xml.apache.org; cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org
Subject: Re: Cocoon article on JDJ
Good article. Inspiring for the new comers.
It's sad to read though that:
1) Cocoon may not catch up with big enough user base, so there is a risk of
using it.
2) Cocoon is not applicable for large scale applications.
Those new couple books coming out this year will certainly help with 1).
Are there folks that can help publishing more articles in the computer
magazines?
With the new contribution for Expires response header and caching
improvements, 2) shouldn't be a big deal any more.
BTW, is Expires checked in already?
Ivelin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sylvain Wallez" <sy...@anyware-tech.com>
To: <co...@xml.apache.org>; <co...@xml.apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 11:29 AM
Subject: Cocoon article on JDJ
> There's a interesting article introducing Cocoon on the Java Developer's
> Journal at http://www.sys-con.com/java/articleprint.cfm?id=1480
>
> Notice how the author states in the intro that Cocoon doesn't have the
> visibility it deserves :
> >>
> Apache Cocoon is one of the most interesting, innovative, and powerful
> platforms for dynamic content generation, though not as well known as
> the others. A subproject of the Apache XML project, Cocoon is one of the
> lesser-known offerings from the folks at the all-open-source Apache
> Software Foundation, having garnered less attention than some of its
> more popular cousins like Struts. But Cocoon is worth a look.
> <<
>
> This once again clearly shows that Cocoon needs marketing !
>
> Sylvain
>
> PS : thanks to Matthew and Guido for the link.
>
> --
> Sylvain Wallez
> Anyware Technologies Apache Cocoon
> http://www.anyware-tech.com mailto:sylvain@apache.org
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Please check that your question has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faqs.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <co...@xml.apache.org>
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Re: Cocoon article on JDJ
Posted by Ivelin Ivanov <iv...@apache.org>.
Good article. Inspiring for the new comers.
It's sad to read though that:
1) Cocoon may not catch up with big enough user base, so there is a risk of
using it.
2) Cocoon is not applicable for large scale applications.
Those new couple books coming out this year will certainly help with 1).
Are there folks that can help publishing more articles in the computer
magazines?
With the new contribution for Expires response header and caching
improvements, 2) shouldn't be a big deal any more.
BTW, is Expires checked in already?
Ivelin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sylvain Wallez" <sy...@anyware-tech.com>
To: <co...@xml.apache.org>; <co...@xml.apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 11:29 AM
Subject: Cocoon article on JDJ
> There's a interesting article introducing Cocoon on the Java Developer's
> Journal at http://www.sys-con.com/java/articleprint.cfm?id=1480
>
> Notice how the author states in the intro that Cocoon doesn't have the
> visibility it deserves :
> >>
> Apache Cocoon is one of the most interesting, innovative, and powerful
> platforms for dynamic content generation, though not as well known as
> the others. A subproject of the Apache XML project, Cocoon is one of the
> lesser-known offerings from the folks at the all-open-source Apache
> Software Foundation, having garnered less attention than some of its
> more popular cousins like Struts. But Cocoon is worth a look.
> <<
>
> This once again clearly shows that Cocoon needs marketing !
>
> Sylvain
>
> PS : thanks to Matthew and Guido for the link.
>
> --
> Sylvain Wallez
> Anyware Technologies Apache Cocoon
> http://www.anyware-tech.com mailto:sylvain@apache.org
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Please check that your question has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faqs.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <co...@xml.apache.org>
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>
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Re: Cocoon article on JDJ
Posted by Ivelin Ivanov <iv...@apache.org>.
Good article. Inspiring for the new comers.
It's sad to read though that:
1) Cocoon may not catch up with big enough user base, so there is a risk of
using it.
2) Cocoon is not applicable for large scale applications.
Those new couple books coming out this year will certainly help with 1).
Are there folks that can help publishing more articles in the computer
magazines?
With the new contribution for Expires response header and caching
improvements, 2) shouldn't be a big deal any more.
BTW, is Expires checked in already?
Ivelin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sylvain Wallez" <sy...@anyware-tech.com>
To: <co...@xml.apache.org>; <co...@xml.apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 11:29 AM
Subject: Cocoon article on JDJ
> There's a interesting article introducing Cocoon on the Java Developer's
> Journal at http://www.sys-con.com/java/articleprint.cfm?id=1480
>
> Notice how the author states in the intro that Cocoon doesn't have the
> visibility it deserves :
> >>
> Apache Cocoon is one of the most interesting, innovative, and powerful
> platforms for dynamic content generation, though not as well known as
> the others. A subproject of the Apache XML project, Cocoon is one of the
> lesser-known offerings from the folks at the all-open-source Apache
> Software Foundation, having garnered less attention than some of its
> more popular cousins like Struts. But Cocoon is worth a look.
> <<
>
> This once again clearly shows that Cocoon needs marketing !
>
> Sylvain
>
> PS : thanks to Matthew and Guido for the link.
>
> --
> Sylvain Wallez
> Anyware Technologies Apache Cocoon
> http://www.anyware-tech.com mailto:sylvain@apache.org
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Please check that your question has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faqs.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <co...@xml.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <co...@xml.apache.org>
>
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Re: Cocoon article on JDJ
Posted by Mark Gaither <ma...@markgaither.com>.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sylvain Wallez" <sy...@anyware-tech.com>
To: <co...@xml.apache.org>; <co...@xml.apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 11:29 AM
Subject: Cocoon article on JDJ
> There's a interesting article introducing Cocoon on the Java Developer's
> Journal at http://www.sys-con.com/java/articleprint.cfm?id=1480
>
> Notice how the author states in the intro that Cocoon doesn't have the
> visibility it deserves :
> >>
> Apache Cocoon is one of the most interesting, innovative, and powerful
> platforms for dynamic content generation, though not as well known as
> the others. A subproject of the Apache XML project, Cocoon is one of the
> lesser-known offerings from the folks at the all-open-source Apache
> Software Foundation, having garnered less attention than some of its
> more popular cousins like Struts. But Cocoon is worth a look.
Wow, great article. Kudos to David Rosenstrauch.
Mark Gaither
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Re: Cocoon article on JDJ
Posted by Mikhail Fedotov <mi...@kittown.com>.
Hi!
> Your document contributions will be appreciated.
> As you are probably aware Diana Shannon is driving this
> effort currently.
Of course.
> You may want to get in touch with her to obtain a list of
> pending documents.
After exams...
Mikhail
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Re: Cocoon article on JDJ
Posted by Ivelin Ivanov <iv...@apache.org>.
Mikhail.
Your document contributions will be appreciated.
As you are probably aware Diana Shannon is driving this effort currently.
You may want to get in touch with her to obtain a list of pending documents.
Ivelin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mikhail Fedotov" <mi...@kittown.com>
To: <co...@xml.apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: Cocoon article on JDJ
> Hi!
>
> > This once again clearly shows that Cocoon needs marketing
> > !
>
> Good point, but I've been trying to do some basic stuff in
> cocoon for the last few days. I was able to do all
> information I want, but at least half of that information
> come from java sources. I've been had to use full-text
> search in local copy of cvs!
>
> That's not documentation; while core concepts are clear (at
> least, I understand them), smaller parts are almost
> non-documented. Even matchers could be used as en example:
> I've been had to check out sample application to understand
> how wildcard session parameter matcher works, and don't yet
> understand how request parameter matcher works.
>
> If we don't want to frighten people right after they came
> to play with c2 their first time, those things must be
> documented. I.e. there should be centralized and unified
> documentation list for all components like matchers or
> database actions. Almost noone will look in sources
> comparing to the whole crowd of potential users.
>
> So, docs first, then (optionally) write current plans and
> components in development, including scratchpad, and then
> it will be perfect time for marketing.
>
> The best thing is that both parts (I don't count marketing)
> are very simple. Requred docs can be no more verbose than
> javadocs, i.e. context of use, parameters, short (and maybe
> long) description and examples.
>
> ps. I could try to work on it if I'll pass my current
> exams.
>
> Mikhail
>
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Re: Cocoon article on JDJ
Posted by Diana Shannon <sh...@apache.org>.
On Friday, June 7, 2002, at 12:56 PM, Mikhail Fedotov wrote:
>
>> We are perfectly aware of the issues with documentation
>
> ...and I'm aware that you are aware of it, sorry for
> bothering. :) But...
>
>> and we are moving as fast as we can to improve things,
>> believe me, also along with the forrest effort.
>>
>> I'm pretty sure that things will be better in time and
>> the fact that more and more articles come up is a
>> pretty good sign of it anyway.
>
> ...but I wanted to say that if there will be _simple_
> standardised way to document _anything_ in Cocoon in the
> same manner (no matter if it is db action or xsp
> logicheet), we can create simple encyclopedy with short
> descriptions for all basic and advanced cocoon2 elements,
> and things will more faster.
>
> I think it would be highly reasonable to create alphabetic
> dictionary of all cocoon elements no matter there they
> belongs with short descriptions of them. It should be very
> easy to maintaint it, that's why it is a good thing.
>
> This seems to be an important point - if there will be easy
> way to create simple and short documentation, more people
> will write it, and there will be more documentation.
I agree. So why not start *now*. In head and release branches already,
and coming soon on the the live site, you will find everything you need
to make a simple and short but very valuable contribution to Cocoon
docs. Contribute an FAQ, a Code Snippet, a How-To. They are deliberately
granular, designed to serve as building blocks for more sophisticated
content later. You'll find How-To instructions on how to do
everything -- authoring, patch preparation, submitting via Bugzilla.
You'll even find a few examples to get you started.
Right now, we're making the best use of existing resources, what we can
use *now*: Bugzilla, cvs, Cocoon, XML, and best of all, people (editors,
other authors, reviewers, committers) who care. Trust me, you'll find it
quick and easy, once you take a few minutes to learn how. Why wait for
Wiki when we can start writing now? I know many are excited about the
prospect of using technologies like Wiki, topic maps, CMS, etc. Well,
*none* of it will make a big difference without content. As a hungry
user myself, I can't get too much content about Cocoon. I don't care how
it arrives, how it is transformed, or how it is managed. I just want
words.
You know what's probably going to make the biggest short term difference
with Cocoon documentation? Well, it's based on a 500+ year-old
technology known as the printing press. As a user, I can't wait to read
Carsten and Matthew's (and other) forthcoming books. Still, *everyone*
can contribute docs, and you can do it right now. Carve out a niche for
yourself as an author. If it's useful to others, your work will be
published the Cocoon's web site! Just as Cocoon provides endless
possibilities to build cool stuff, it also affords us an unlimited
amount of creative space to write about it.
Why wait?
Diana
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Re: Cocoon article on JDJ
Posted by Mikhail Fedotov <mi...@kittown.com>.
Hi!
> We are perfectly aware of the issues with documentation
...and I'm aware that you are aware of it, sorry for
bothering. :) But...
> and we are moving as fast as we can to improve things,
> believe me, also along with the forrest effort.
>
> I'm pretty sure that things will be better in time and
> the fact that more and more articles come up is a
> pretty good sign of it anyway.
...but I wanted to say that if there will be _simple_
standardised way to document _anything_ in Cocoon in the
same manner (no matter if it is db action or xsp
logicheet), we can create simple encyclopedy with short
descriptions for all basic and advanced cocoon2 elements,
and things will more faster.
I think it would be highly reasonable to create alphabetic
dictionary of all cocoon elements no matter there they
belongs with short descriptions of them. It should be very
easy to maintaint it, that's why it is a good thing.
This seems to be an important point - if there will be easy
way to create simple and short documentation, more people
will write it, and there will be more documentation. And if
there will be alot of simple documentation, writing of
complex documentation (without repeating basic stuff)
should become easier.
Is there anything like this in forrest ? If it will be
done, it should be integrated in it's structure of course.
Mikhail
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Re: Cocoon article on JDJ
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Mikhail Fedotov wrote:
>
> Hi!
>
> > This once again clearly shows that Cocoon needs marketing
> > !
>
> Good point, but I've been trying to do some basic stuff in
> cocoon for the last few days. I was able to do all
> information I want, but at least half of that information
> come from java sources. I've been had to use full-text
> search in local copy of cvs!
>
> That's not documentation; while core concepts are clear (at
> least, I understand them), smaller parts are almost
> non-documented. Even matchers could be used as en example:
> I've been had to check out sample application to understand
> how wildcard session parameter matcher works, and don't yet
> understand how request parameter matcher works.
>
> If we don't want to frighten people right after they came
> to play with c2 their first time, those things must be
> documented. I.e. there should be centralized and unified
> documentation list for all components like matchers or
> database actions. Almost noone will look in sources
> comparing to the whole crowd of potential users.
>
> So, docs first, then (optionally) write current plans and
> components in development, including scratchpad, and then
> it will be perfect time for marketing.
>
> The best thing is that both parts (I don't count marketing)
> are very simple. Requred docs can be no more verbose than
> javadocs, i.e. context of use, parameters, short (and maybe
> long) description and examples.
>
> ps. I could try to work on it if I'll pass my current
> exams.
We are perfectly aware of the issues with documentation and we are
moving as fast as we can to improve things, believe me, also along with
the forrest effort.
I'm pretty sure that things will be better in time and the fact that
more and more articles come up is a pretty good sign of it anyway.
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Cocoon article on JDJ
Posted by Mikhail Fedotov <mi...@kittown.com>.
Hi!
> This once again clearly shows that Cocoon needs marketing
> !
Good point, but I've been trying to do some basic stuff in
cocoon for the last few days. I was able to do all
information I want, but at least half of that information
come from java sources. I've been had to use full-text
search in local copy of cvs!
That's not documentation; while core concepts are clear (at
least, I understand them), smaller parts are almost
non-documented. Even matchers could be used as en example:
I've been had to check out sample application to understand
how wildcard session parameter matcher works, and don't yet
understand how request parameter matcher works.
If we don't want to frighten people right after they came
to play with c2 their first time, those things must be
documented. I.e. there should be centralized and unified
documentation list for all components like matchers or
database actions. Almost noone will look in sources
comparing to the whole crowd of potential users.
So, docs first, then (optionally) write current plans and
components in development, including scratchpad, and then
it will be perfect time for marketing.
The best thing is that both parts (I don't count marketing)
are very simple. Requred docs can be no more verbose than
javadocs, i.e. context of use, parameters, short (and maybe
long) description and examples.
ps. I could try to work on it if I'll pass my current
exams.
Mikhail
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