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Posted to dev@cordova.apache.org by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com> on 2015/04/10 15:10:57 UTC
Github, again.
Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-Foundation-tp5722483p5722847.html
Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
> On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>
> It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP (code).
> Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google Code) or
> worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
>
> I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that most
> brands appear to feel this risk is low.
>
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015, 5:22 PM Gorkem Ercan <go...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 9 Apr 2015, at 15:38, Andrew Grieve wrote:
>>
>>> Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right now,
>>> but I
>>> will promise to post back with some formulated thoughts a bit later
>>> (some
>>> of this I'm prepping for my ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it
>>> anyways).
>>>
>>> Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not
>>> constructive.
>>> If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not for the
>>> sake
>>> of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things about
>>> others
>>> almost always ends up making you look worse than those you are being
>>> negative towards.
>>>
>>> Another angle:
>>> Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though your
>>> views are
>>> your own (although statements like "Or we could just leave the ASF"
>>> make it
>>> sound like you are representing more than that), your tone often just
>>> makes
>>> people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to
>>> contribute to
>>> a project that is full of smileys and encouragement, or one where
>>> people
>>> are negative and abrasive? It really goes a long way to keep the email
>>> tone
>>> positive even when you disagree.
>>>
>>> Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova Apache'ers
>>> (we
>>> are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful:
>>> - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us set one
>>> up.
>>> - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their shared
>>> instance.
>>> - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a
>>> collaboration
>>> between Infra and other projects that made it happen (we complained,
>>> but
>>> didn't do the work to make it possible).
>>> - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time (although
>>> we
>>> decided not to stick with it).
>>>
>>> Why can we not use Github issues?
>>> - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github.
>>> - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a conversation that
>>> hasn't happened yet.
>>> - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but do
>>> issue
>>> trackers count as "data"?
>>
>> This may actually be intellectual property related. Eclipse foundation
>> which allows GitHub to be used as primary SCM, does not allow GitHub
>> as issue tracker because it can not be covered by the Eclipse.org terms
>> of use.
>>
>>> - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have.
>>> - dev@community.apache.org would be a great place to start, since
>>> that's
>>> meant for cross-project discussion.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree, it
>>>>> is
>>>>> offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring to (and
>>>>> why *I*
>>>>> dread ever posting to this list, shame that question wasn't in the
>>>>> Stack
>>>>> Overflow survey).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based on the
>>>> tone
>>>> you're using, I can't be sure. If you're looking to make a personal
>>>> attack
>>>> on me publicly, then fine, go ahead. On this list, these comments
>>>> only
>>>> reflect my own personal views. It's clear that people don't agree
>>>> with me,
>>>> because we're still here.
>>>>
>>>> Joe
>>>>
>>>> Ross
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no additional
>>>>>> influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> participation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times. There are
>>>> clearly
>>>>> people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had to
>>>>> fight
>>>>> the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this
>>>>> project, and
>>>>> I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually leave.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the way
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to
>>>>>> propose
>>>>>> changes that work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation whose
>>>> rules
>>>>> aren't as rigid. That could work too.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just that.
>>>>>> Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there are
>>>>>> some
>>>>>> individuals who certainly do not fit into this category, but their
>>>>>> voices are usually drowned out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF. I regret that we
>>>> donated
>>>>> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been
>>>>> complained
>>>>> about so many times by our community members who have followed us
>>>>> since
>>>> we
>>>>> started this thing. However, we're stuck here now, and the people
>>>>> who
>>>> feel
>>>>> like working with the ASF are doing so. You're never going to
>>>>> convince
>>>>> everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially
>>>>> since
>>>> your
>>>>> organization has been passively aggressively attacking various parts
>>>>> of
>>>> the
>>>>> JS community for years. Honestly, I think it's a miracle that we
>>>>> haven't
>>>>> forked yet.
>>>>>
>>>>> Joe
>>>>>
>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>> From: Carlos Santana<ma...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> Sent: 4/9/2015 9:00 AM
>>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Joe,
>>>>>> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want, while
>>>>>> at the same time without being punched in the face :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marcel,
>>>>>> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you talk
>>>>>> to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova
>>>>>> developers to see if what is the possibility to use github with the
>>>>>> understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving in place
>>>> like
>>>>> I layout in my email?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana
>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
>>>>>>>> We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1. Use Github Issues
>>>>>>>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
>>>>>>>> Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create
>>>>>>>> corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing
>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>> with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at Apache
>>>>>>> hate
>>>>>> GitHub
>>>>>>> with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough problems
>>>>>>> just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would love to
>>>>>>> dump JIRA
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache
>>>>>>> infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less
>>>>>>> accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an Apache neckbeard.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache
>>>>>>>> Foundation,
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> another open source Foundation? That should not affect the
>>>>>>>> community
>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> should still continue to interface in Github.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us leaving
>>>>>>> the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed to
>>>>>>> use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi existed. One
>>>>>>> thing
>>>>>>> that I think we
>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>> communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and
>>>>>>> how
>>>>>> these
>>>>>>> stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF cared
>>>>>>> about
>>>>>> such
>>>>>>> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
>>>>>>>> <st...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As a survey it's always biased.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The problem
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> clearly
>>>>>>>>> not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this.
>>>>>>>>> They
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>> Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
>>>>>>>>> Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile web
>>>>>>>>> nor anything relative to the mobile.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> native :)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Stéphane Bachelier,
>>>>>>>>> Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
>>>>>>>>> B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
>>>>>>>>> jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>>>>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I am a developper and I use Cordova.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the
>>>>>> details
>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>> how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of the
>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>> done
>>>>>>>>>> and appreciate it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't think
>>>>>>>>>> I am
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> only one.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as
>>>>>>>>>> good as
>>>>>>>> native
>>>>>>>>>> ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> apps I
>>>>>>>>>> work on!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <Tyler@drumpants.com
>>>>> :
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I think what colors people's perception the most is the
>>>>>>>>>>> graphics
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few
>>>>>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>>>> reasons:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3
>>>>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>> ago.
>>>>>>>>> Even
>>>>>>>>>>> though it's improved so much since then, those first apps
>>>>>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>> hang
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> people's minds.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth,
>>>>>>>>>>> buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern
>>>>>>>>>>> WebKit views,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>> hard and takes a lot of work.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> * For instance, I came across an article once that
>>>>>>>>>>> recommended
>>>>>>> using
>>>>>>>>> CSS
>>>>>>>>>>> transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed
>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>> whole
>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> it. I
>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>> it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> making
>>>>>>>>>>> top-notch apps.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port
>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>> iOS-style
>>>>>>>>>>> design straight to Android without considering that Android
>>>>>>>>>>> users
>>>>>>>>> expect
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do
>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
>>>>>>>>>> michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the
>>>>>>>>>>>> score
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> low
>>>>>>>>>>>> because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> default
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional -
>>>>>>>>>>>> Git
>>>>>>>> Bash,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven
>>>>>>>>>>>> development, and
>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>>>> full
>>>>>>>>>>>> blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving
>>>>>>>>>>>> this and
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual
>>>>>>>>>>>> Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those
>>>>>>>>>>>> survey
>>>>>>>>> results
>>>>>>>>>>>> improve.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
>>>>>>> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely right :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the
>>>>>>> developers
>>>>>>>>>>>> using
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing
>>>>>> nothing
>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the
>>>>>>> JS->Native->JS
>>>>>>>>>>>> bridge.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
>>>>>>> communitcation
>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything
>>>>>>> special
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs
>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova
>>>>>>>>>>>>> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Toplak
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
>>>>>>>>>>>>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making
>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
>>>>>>> happy?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone can
>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
>>>>>>> applications
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova
>>>>>> application
>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>> another company, you're probably going to end up
>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-writing it
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> natively
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you're more comfortable with.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time
>>>>>>>>>>>>> soon, and
>>>>>>>> both
>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>>> technologies share the same property that anyone can
>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a
>>>>>>>> shitty
>>>>>>>>>>>>> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> reason,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult
>>>>>>>>>>>>> because I
>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>> Drupal
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>> care what developers say in a survey, since most
>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible
>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're
>>>>>>>>>>>>> releasing
>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
>>>>>>>>>>>> <le...@intel.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (
>>>> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
>>>>> ).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most Dreaded technologies:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Salesforce 73.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual Basic 72.0%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress 68.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matlab 65.6%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sharepoint 62.8%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LAMP 62.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perl 59.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova 58.8%
>>>>> **************
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffeescript 54.7%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other 57.3%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> % of devs who are developing with the language or tech
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expressed interest in continuing to do so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>>>> answers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>> looking
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback from those who have heard developers express
>>>>>>>> frustration
>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * There is no problem - unclear question led to
>>>> the
>>>>>>>> answer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * The problem is really about creating native
>>>> apps
>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>> JavaScript +
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HTML5
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Cordova CLI has a quality problem
>>>> (learnability |
>>>>>>>>>>>> usability |
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliability)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too hard to set up development environment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o The command CLI is too complicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Not enough learning material (documentation,
>>>> articles,
>>>>>>>> books)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too many bugs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Changes too frequently
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leo
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Freeman
>>>>>>>>>>> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from mobile
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Cordialement,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Voltaire José-luc
>>>>>>>>>> Directeur Technique
>>>>>>>>>> Netdevices
>>>>>>>>>> e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
>>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Carlos Santana
>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
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Re: Github, again.
Posted by Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io>.
Alas, no. Vote threads MUST be an email. Our original interpretation:
tagging a release by a PMC 'platform lead' === Vote… which, some may
recall, the board did not take kindly.
Moving from code to conversation def has slowed the project cadence down.
Our last major release was July 2013. There was a significant stall in
adoption but that seems to have recovered and really put wind back in the
sails for downstreams I can measure like PhoneGap. Maybe that is ok. Def a
great conversation piece.
On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 3:55 PM, Josh Soref <js...@blackberry.com> wrote:
> Tony wrote:
> > FWIW, I don¹t think that Cordova JIRA is horrible.
> > We use JIRA at Intel and have had a lot of intermittent performance
> > problems that were mostly resolved with a recent version update.
> > It seems like a lot of effort has been invested in the Cordova JIRA and
> it
> > seems (to me) like it would be a shame to move away from it.
> > I¹ll leave it at that and comment on your other thread Michal.
>
> Fwiw, we use JIRA at work, and I hate that JIRA much more than I hate
> Apache's JIRA.
>
> We also have a GitHub tracker that we use for WebWorks.
> I'm not a big fan of it, but the simplicity is a nice thing relative to all
> of the mandatory knobs in my least favorite JIRA.
>
> GitHub's linking features are vaguely nice.
>
> Note: in general, I'm a proponent of being able to review the history of
> code and being able to understand why a change was made.
> Traditionally, that involves looking at a bug tracker and reading the bug.
>
> However, neither JIRAs I've mentioned today are used that way, often
> they're
> at best Process Shepherds, and often they're just full of noise.
>
> I don't need a Process Shepherd, and if I have to have one, I'd rather it
> be
> Pull Requests.
>
> A funny thing to consider in this area:
>
> Instead of having a vote thread which people can email -- and which
> frequently spirals out of control.
> We could have a Vote RC file, and people could pull request their +1s.
>
> No one in their right mind would try to add a long comment into such a vote
> file.
>
> But, we could have a discuss thread. And we could receive emails about pull
> requests for the +1s.
>
> Such a thing could be trackable, in a meaningful way...
> And your commit message / pull request for a +1 could explain what you
> tested.
>
> > On the other hand (and this is the real point I wanted to make), the wiki
> > is horrible.
>
> > It is barely useable and it¹s poor performance is a major de-motivator
> > when it comes to editing it.
>
> Its performance definitely isn't a plus.
>
> The process of managing accounts is a bumber.
>
> I'd certainly favor a pull request model (which GitHub pages would give
> me).
>
> > There are important documents and information that only exist on the
> wiki!
> > In one of the other threads, Carlos suggested using Github wiki - it
> seems
> > like this would be a great change to me if it is possible.
> > From my perspective, this would be a far more valuable change than moving
> > from JIRA to Github Issues.
> > Just wanted to raise it since you seem to be interested in spinning some
> > of these topics off into dedicated discussion threadsŠ
>
> I've seen some projects try using GitHub pages, and I haven't seen many
> where it works particularly well.
> OTOH, I haven't seen *anything* that works particularly well.
>
RE: Github, again.
Posted by Josh Soref <js...@blackberry.com>.
Tony wrote:
> FWIW, I don¹t think that Cordova JIRA is horrible.
> We use JIRA at Intel and have had a lot of intermittent performance
> problems that were mostly resolved with a recent version update.
> It seems like a lot of effort has been invested in the Cordova JIRA and it
> seems (to me) like it would be a shame to move away from it.
> I¹ll leave it at that and comment on your other thread Michal.
Fwiw, we use JIRA at work, and I hate that JIRA much more than I hate
Apache's JIRA.
We also have a GitHub tracker that we use for WebWorks.
I'm not a big fan of it, but the simplicity is a nice thing relative to all
of the mandatory knobs in my least favorite JIRA.
GitHub's linking features are vaguely nice.
Note: in general, I'm a proponent of being able to review the history of
code and being able to understand why a change was made.
Traditionally, that involves looking at a bug tracker and reading the bug.
However, neither JIRAs I've mentioned today are used that way, often they're
at best Process Shepherds, and often they're just full of noise.
I don't need a Process Shepherd, and if I have to have one, I'd rather it be
Pull Requests.
A funny thing to consider in this area:
Instead of having a vote thread which people can email -- and which
frequently spirals out of control.
We could have a Vote RC file, and people could pull request their +1s.
No one in their right mind would try to add a long comment into such a vote
file.
But, we could have a discuss thread. And we could receive emails about pull
requests for the +1s.
Such a thing could be trackable, in a meaningful way...
And your commit message / pull request for a +1 could explain what you
tested.
> On the other hand (and this is the real point I wanted to make), the wiki
> is horrible.
> It is barely useable and it¹s poor performance is a major de-motivator
> when it comes to editing it.
Its performance definitely isn't a plus.
The process of managing accounts is a bumber.
I'd certainly favor a pull request model (which GitHub pages would give me).
> There are important documents and information that only exist on the wiki!
> In one of the other threads, Carlos suggested using Github wiki - it seems
> like this would be a great change to me if it is possible.
> From my perspective, this would be a far more valuable change than moving
> from JIRA to Github Issues.
> Just wanted to raise it since you seem to be interested in spinning some
> of these topics off into dedicated discussion threadsŠ
I've seen some projects try using GitHub pages, and I haven't seen many
where it works particularly well.
OTOH, I haven't seen *anything* that works particularly well.
Re: Github, again.
Posted by "Homer, Tony" <to...@intel.com>.
FWIW, I don¹t think that Cordova JIRA is horrible.
We use JIRA at Intel and have had a lot of intermittent performance
problems that were mostly resolved with a recent version update.
It seems like a lot of effort has been invested in the Cordova JIRA and it
seems (to me) like it would be a shame to move away from it.
I¹ll leave it at that and comment on your other thread Michal.
On the other hand (and this is the real point I wanted to make), the wiki
is horrible.
It is barely useable and it¹s poor performance is a major de-motivator
when it comes to editing it.
There are important documents and information that only exist on the wiki!
In one of the other threads, Carlos suggested using Github wiki - it seems
like this would be a great change to me if it is possible.
>From my perspective, this would be a far more valuable change than moving
from JIRA to Github Issues.
Just wanted to raise it since you seem to be interested in spinning some
of these topics off into dedicated discussion threadsŠ
Tony
On 4/10/15, 10:31 AM, "Michal Mocny" <mm...@chromium.org> wrote:
>Excellent, thank you Jim!
>
>I'll start a new thread about it!
>
>On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 10:14 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>
>> IMO, issue tracking is different, although if it does go
>> away, the migration process can be very painful. If the
>> Cordova project is willing to "risk" issue tracking on
>> an external provider, then, that is their decision and
>> it's not at the same level of concern as the repo itself.
>>
>> > On Apr 10, 2015, at 10:07 AM, Michal Mocny <mm...@chromium.org>
>>wrote:
>> >
>> > This makes sense for primary code repo, and with the latest github
>> > integrations (auto-closing PR, faster sync with upstream), it really
>> hasn't
>> > been all that painful any more (just a bit more work for committers
>>when
>> > doing PR).
>> >
>> > However, does that policy also apply to issue tracking? I think that
>>is
>> > actually the biggest hurdle -- many in the community won't opt to try
>> JIRA,
>> > issues go unreported.
>> >
>> > On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 9:34 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com>
>>wrote:
>> >
>> >> As far as I know, it hasn't happened.
>> >>
>> >> The ASF has a great reputation for having very complete and
>> >> detailed provenance; The combination of that record (well
>> >> deserved, and well earned) as well as the ALv2 license is
>> >> what makes Apache code so universally prevalent in IT nowaways.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> On Apr 10, 2015, at 9:22 AM, Raymond Camden
>><ra...@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Interesting. Thanks for sharing this. In terms of "forging"
>>authorship
>> >>> - is that something that has actually happened in the past and been
>>an
>> >>> issue, or is just something that is feared?
>> >>>
>> >>> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 8:10 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>>> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
>> >>>> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
>> >>>> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
>> >>>> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
>> >>>> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>
>>
>>http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-Foundation-tp572248
>>3p5722847.html
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
>> >>>> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the
>>IP
>> >> (code).
>> >>>>> Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google
>> >> Code) or
>> >>>>> worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting
>>that
>> >> most
>> >>>>> brands appear to feel this risk is low.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>> >>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>>
>>
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Re: Github, again.
Posted by Michal Mocny <mm...@chromium.org>.
Excellent, thank you Jim!
I'll start a new thread about it!
On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 10:14 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> IMO, issue tracking is different, although if it does go
> away, the migration process can be very painful. If the
> Cordova project is willing to "risk" issue tracking on
> an external provider, then, that is their decision and
> it's not at the same level of concern as the repo itself.
>
> > On Apr 10, 2015, at 10:07 AM, Michal Mocny <mm...@chromium.org> wrote:
> >
> > This makes sense for primary code repo, and with the latest github
> > integrations (auto-closing PR, faster sync with upstream), it really
> hasn't
> > been all that painful any more (just a bit more work for committers when
> > doing PR).
> >
> > However, does that policy also apply to issue tracking? I think that is
> > actually the biggest hurdle -- many in the community won't opt to try
> JIRA,
> > issues go unreported.
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 9:34 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> >
> >> As far as I know, it hasn't happened.
> >>
> >> The ASF has a great reputation for having very complete and
> >> detailed provenance; The combination of that record (well
> >> deserved, and well earned) as well as the ALv2 license is
> >> what makes Apache code so universally prevalent in IT nowaways.
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Apr 10, 2015, at 9:22 AM, Raymond Camden <ra...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Interesting. Thanks for sharing this. In terms of "forging" authorship
> >>> - is that something that has actually happened in the past and been an
> >>> issue, or is just something that is feared?
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 8:10 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com>
> wrote:
> >>>> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
> >>>> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
> >>>> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
> >>>> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
> >>>> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-Foundation-tp5722483p5722847.html
> >>>>
> >>>> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
> >>>> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP
> >> (code).
> >>>>> Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google
> >> Code) or
> >>>>> worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that
> >> most
> >>>>> brands appear to feel this risk is low.
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >>
> >>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>
>
Re: Github, again.
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
IMO, issue tracking is different, although if it does go
away, the migration process can be very painful. If the
Cordova project is willing to "risk" issue tracking on
an external provider, then, that is their decision and
it's not at the same level of concern as the repo itself.
> On Apr 10, 2015, at 10:07 AM, Michal Mocny <mm...@chromium.org> wrote:
>
> This makes sense for primary code repo, and with the latest github
> integrations (auto-closing PR, faster sync with upstream), it really hasn't
> been all that painful any more (just a bit more work for committers when
> doing PR).
>
> However, does that policy also apply to issue tracking? I think that is
> actually the biggest hurdle -- many in the community won't opt to try JIRA,
> issues go unreported.
>
> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 9:34 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>
>> As far as I know, it hasn't happened.
>>
>> The ASF has a great reputation for having very complete and
>> detailed provenance; The combination of that record (well
>> deserved, and well earned) as well as the ALv2 license is
>> what makes Apache code so universally prevalent in IT nowaways.
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 10, 2015, at 9:22 AM, Raymond Camden <ra...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Interesting. Thanks for sharing this. In terms of "forging" authorship
>>> - is that something that has actually happened in the past and been an
>>> issue, or is just something that is feared?
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 8:10 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>>>> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
>>>> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
>>>> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
>>>> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
>>>> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
>>>>
>>>>
>> http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-Foundation-tp5722483p5722847.html
>>>>
>>>> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
>>>> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP
>> (code).
>>>>> Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google
>> Code) or
>>>>> worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that
>> most
>>>>> brands appear to feel this risk is low.
>>>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>>
>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Github, again.
Posted by Michal Mocny <mm...@chromium.org>.
This makes sense for primary code repo, and with the latest github
integrations (auto-closing PR, faster sync with upstream), it really hasn't
been all that painful any more (just a bit more work for committers when
doing PR).
However, does that policy also apply to issue tracking? I think that is
actually the biggest hurdle -- many in the community won't opt to try JIRA,
issues go unreported.
On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 9:34 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> As far as I know, it hasn't happened.
>
> The ASF has a great reputation for having very complete and
> detailed provenance; The combination of that record (well
> deserved, and well earned) as well as the ALv2 license is
> what makes Apache code so universally prevalent in IT nowaways.
>
>
> > On Apr 10, 2015, at 9:22 AM, Raymond Camden <ra...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Interesting. Thanks for sharing this. In terms of "forging" authorship
> > - is that something that has actually happened in the past and been an
> > issue, or is just something that is feared?
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 8:10 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> >> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
> >> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
> >> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
> >> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
> >> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
> >>
> >>
> http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-Foundation-tp5722483p5722847.html
> >>
> >> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
> >> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
> >>
> >>> On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP
> (code).
> >>> Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google
> Code) or
> >>> worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
> >>>
> >>> I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that
> most
> >>> brands appear to feel this risk is low.
> >>>
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>
>
Re: Github, again.
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
As far as I know, it hasn't happened.
The ASF has a great reputation for having very complete and
detailed provenance; The combination of that record (well
deserved, and well earned) as well as the ALv2 license is
what makes Apache code so universally prevalent in IT nowaways.
> On Apr 10, 2015, at 9:22 AM, Raymond Camden <ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Interesting. Thanks for sharing this. In terms of "forging" authorship
> - is that something that has actually happened in the past and been an
> issue, or is just something that is feared?
>
> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 8:10 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
>> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
>> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
>> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
>> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
>>
>> http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-Foundation-tp5722483p5722847.html
>>
>> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
>> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
>>
>>> On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>>>
>>> It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP (code).
>>> Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google Code) or
>>> worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
>>>
>>> I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that most
>>> brands appear to feel this risk is low.
>>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Github, again.
Posted by Raymond Camden <ra...@gmail.com>.
Interesting. Thanks for sharing this. In terms of "forging" authorship
- is that something that has actually happened in the past and been an
issue, or is just something that is feared?
On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 8:10 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
>
> http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-Foundation-tp5722483p5722847.html
>
> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
>
>> On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>>
>> It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP (code).
>> Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google Code) or
>> worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
>>
>> I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that most
>> brands appear to feel this risk is low.
>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Github, again.
Posted by Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io>.
I used your provenance first but clarification did come with the typically
boogyman stuff I hear. Yes those things are ridiculous as is you ignoring
my earlier emails and only responding to that. As usual.
On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 8:53 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> You said:
>
> 1. Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google
> Code) or worse
> 2. go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
>
> neither of which is the *real* reason, although #1 is,
> of course, a viable concern (disappear or start charging)
> and #2 is a complete strawman.
>
>
> > On Apr 10, 2015, at 11:16 AM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> >
> > I said as much Jim. As to FUD...
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 6:18 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
> >> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
> >> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
> >> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
> >> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
> >>
> >> http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-
> >> Foundation-tp5722483p5722847.html
> >>
> >> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
> >> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
> >>
> >>> On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP
> >> (code).
> >>> Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google Code)
> >> or
> >>> worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
> >>>
> >>> I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that
> >> most
> >>> brands appear to feel this risk is low.
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015, 5:22 PM Gorkem Ercan <go...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On 9 Apr 2015, at 15:38, Andrew Grieve wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right now,
> >>>>> but I
> >>>>> will promise to post back with some formulated thoughts a bit later
> >>>>> (some
> >>>>> of this I'm prepping for my ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it
> >>>>> anyways).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not
> >>>>> constructive.
> >>>>> If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not for the
> >>>>> sake
> >>>>> of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things about
> >>>>> others
> >>>>> almost always ends up making you look worse than those you are being
> >>>>> negative towards.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Another angle:
> >>>>> Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though your
> >>>>> views are
> >>>>> your own (although statements like "Or we could just leave the ASF"
> >>>>> make it
> >>>>> sound like you are representing more than that), your tone often just
> >>>>> makes
> >>>>> people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to
> >>>>> contribute to
> >>>>> a project that is full of smileys and encouragement, or one where
> >>>>> people
> >>>>> are negative and abrasive? It really goes a long way to keep the
> email
> >>>>> tone
> >>>>> positive even when you disagree.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova
> Apache'ers
> >>>>> (we
> >>>>> are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful:
> >>>>> - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us set one
> >>>>> up.
> >>>>> - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their shared
> >>>>> instance.
> >>>>> - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a
> >>>>> collaboration
> >>>>> between Infra and other projects that made it happen (we complained,
> >>>>> but
> >>>>> didn't do the work to make it possible).
> >>>>> - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time
> (although
> >>>>> we
> >>>>> decided not to stick with it).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Why can we not use Github issues?
> >>>>> - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github.
> >>>>> - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a conversation that
> >>>>> hasn't happened yet.
> >>>>> - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but do
> >>>>> issue
> >>>>> trackers count as "data"?
> >>>>
> >>>> This may actually be intellectual property related. Eclipse foundation
> >>>> which allows GitHub to be used as primary SCM, does not allow GitHub
> >>>> as issue tracker because it can not be covered by the Eclipse.org
> terms
> >>>> of use.
> >>>>
> >>>>> - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have.
> >>>>> - dev@community.apache.org would be a great place to start, since
> >>>>> that's
> >>>>> meant for cross-project discussion.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> >>>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree, it
> >>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>> offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring to (and
> >>>>>>> why *I*
> >>>>>>> dread ever posting to this list, shame that question wasn't in the
> >>>>>>> Stack
> >>>>>>> Overflow survey).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based on the
> >>>>>> tone
> >>>>>> you're using, I can't be sure. If you're looking to make a personal
> >>>>>> attack
> >>>>>> on me publicly, then fine, go ahead. On this list, these comments
> >>>>>> only
> >>>>>> reflect my own personal views. It's clear that people don't agree
> >>>>>> with me,
> >>>>>> because we're still here.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Joe
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Ross
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
> >>>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> >>>>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no additional
> >>>>>>>> influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> participation.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times. There are
> >>>>>> clearly
> >>>>>>> people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had to
> >>>>>>> fight
> >>>>>>> the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this
> >>>>>>> project, and
> >>>>>>> I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually leave.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the way
> >>>>>>>> they
> >>>>>>>> are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to
> >>>>>>>> propose
> >>>>>>>> changes that work.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation
> whose
> >>>>>> rules
> >>>>>>> aren't as rigid. That could work too.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just that.
> >>>>>>>> Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there are
> >>>>>>>> some
> >>>>>>>> individuals who certainly do not fit into this category, but their
> >>>>>>>> voices are usually drowned out.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF. I regret that we
> >>>>>> donated
> >>>>>>> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been
> >>>>>>> complained
> >>>>>>> about so many times by our community members who have followed us
> >>>>>>> since
> >>>>>> we
> >>>>>>> started this thing. However, we're stuck here now, and the people
> >>>>>>> who
> >>>>>> feel
> >>>>>>> like working with the ASF are doing so. You're never going to
> >>>>>>> convince
> >>>>>>> everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially
> >>>>>>> since
> >>>>>> your
> >>>>>>> organization has been passively aggressively attacking various
> parts
> >>>>>>> of
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> JS community for years. Honestly, I think it's a miracle that we
> >>>>>>> haven't
> >>>>>>> forked yet.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Joe
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Ross
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
> >>>>>>>> ________________________________
> >>>>>>>> From: Carlos Santana<ma...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>> Sent: 4/9/2015 9:00 AM
> >>>>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Joe,
> >>>>>>>> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want, while
> >>>>>>>> at the same time without being punched in the face :-)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Marcel,
> >>>>>>>> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you
> talk
> >>>>>>>> to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova
> >>>>>>>> developers to see if what is the possibility to use github with
> the
> >>>>>>>> understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving in
> place
> >>>>>> like
> >>>>>>> I layout in my email?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana
> >>>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
> >>>>>>>>>> We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> 1. Use Github Issues
> >>>>>>>>>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
> >>>>>>>>>> Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create
> >>>>>>>>>> corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing
> >>>>>>>>>> this
> >>>>>>>>>> with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at Apache
> >>>>>>>>> hate
> >>>>>>>> GitHub
> >>>>>>>>> with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough
> problems
> >>>>>>>>> just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would love to
> >>>>>>>>> dump JIRA
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache
> >>>>>>>>> infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less
> >>>>>>>>> accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an Apache neckbeard.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache
> >>>>>>>>>> Foundation,
> >>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>> another open source Foundation? That should not affect the
> >>>>>>>>>> community
> >>>>>>>> they
> >>>>>>>>>> should still continue to interface in Github.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us leaving
> >>>>>>>>> the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed to
> >>>>>>>>> use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi existed. One
> >>>>>>>>> thing
> >>>>>>>>> that I think we
> >>>>>>>> don't
> >>>>>>>>> communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and
> >>>>>>>>> how
> >>>>>>>> these
> >>>>>>>>> stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF cared
> >>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>> such
> >>>>>>>>> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
> >>>>>>>>>> <st...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> As a survey it's always biased.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The problem
> >>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>> clearly
> >>>>>>>>>>> not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this.
> >>>>>>>>>>> They
> >>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
> >>>>>>>>>>> Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile
> web
> >>>>>>>>>>> nor anything relative to the mobile.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most
> >>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>> them
> >>>>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>>> native :)
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>> Stéphane Bachelier,
> >>>>>>>>>>> Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
> >>>>>>>>>>> B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
> >>>>>>>>>>> jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >>>>>>>>>>>> :
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I am a developper and I use Cordova.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the
> >>>>>>>> details
> >>>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>>>> how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> work
> >>>>>>>>>> done
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and appreciate it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't think
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I am
> >>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> only one.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as
> >>>>>>>>>>>> good as
> >>>>>>>>>> native
> >>>>>>>>>>>> ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do
> >>>>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>> apps I
> >>>>>>>>>>>> work on!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <Tyler@drumpants.com
> >>>>>>> :
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I think what colors people's perception the most is the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> graphics
> >>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
> >>>>>>>>>> reasons:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> years
> >>>>>>>>> ago.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Even
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> though it's improved so much since then, those first apps
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> still
> >>>>>>>>> hang
> >>>>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> people's minds.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> WebKit views,
> >>>>>>>> but
> >>>>>>>>>>> it's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> hard and takes a lot of work.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> * For instance, I came across an article once that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> recommended
> >>>>>>>>> using
> >>>>>>>>>>> CSS
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> my
> >>>>>>>> whole
> >>>>>>>>>> way
> >>>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>> it. I
> >>>>>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>>> making
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> top-notch apps.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> their
> >>>>>>>>>> iOS-style
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> design straight to Android without considering that Android
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> users
> >>>>>>>>>>> expect
> >>>>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>> this.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
> >>>>>>>>>>>> michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> score
> >>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>> low
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>> default
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional -
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Git
> >>>>>>>>>> Bash,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> development, and
> >>>>>>>>> no
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> full
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this and
> >>>>>>>>> as
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> survey
> >>>>>>>>>>> results
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> improve.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
> >>>>>>>>> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely right :-)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the
> >>>>>>>>> developers
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> using
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing
> >>>>>>>> nothing
> >>>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the
> >>>>>>>>> JS->Native->JS
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> bridge.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
> >>>>>>>>> communitcation
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugins.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything
> >>>>>>>>> special
> >>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs
> >>>>>>>> which
> >>>>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>> :-)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Toplak
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >>>>>>>>> happy?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone can
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
> >>>>>>>>> applications
> >>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova
> >>>>>>>> application
> >>>>>>>>>>> from
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another company, you're probably going to end up
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-writing it
> >>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>> if
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> natively
> >>>>>>>>> because
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you're more comfortable with.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> soon, and
> >>>>>>>>>> both
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technologies share the same property that anyone can
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a
> >>>>>>>>>> shitty
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>> reason,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and at
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because I
> >>>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Drupal
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
> >>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>> we
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care what developers say in a survey, since most
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> releasing
> >>>>>>>>> isn't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <le...@intel.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (
> >>>>>> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
> >>>>>>> ).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most Dreaded technologies:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Salesforce 73.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual Basic 72.0%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress 68.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matlab 65.6%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sharepoint 62.8%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LAMP 62.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perl 59.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova 58.8%
> >>>>>>> **************
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffeescript 54.7%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other 57.3%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> % of devs who are developing with the language or tech
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
> >>>>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expressed interest in continuing to do so.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
> >>>>>>>>>> answers.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather
> >>>>>>>>>> looking
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback from those who have heard developers express
> >>>>>>>>>> frustration
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * There is no problem - unclear question led to
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>> answer
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * The problem is really about creating native
> >>>>>> apps
> >>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> JavaScript +
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HTML5
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Cordova CLI has a quality problem
> >>>>>> (learnability |
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> usability |
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliability)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too hard to set up development environment
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o The command CLI is too complicated
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Not enough learning material (documentation,
> >>>>>> articles,
> >>>>>>>>>> books)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too many bugs
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Changes too frequently
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leo
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Freeman
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from mobile
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cordialement,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Voltaire José-luc
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Directeur Technique
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Netdevices
> >>>>>>>>>>>> e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
> >>>>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
> >>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >>
> >>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>
>
Re: Github, again.
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
You said:
1. Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google Code) or worse
2. go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
neither of which is the *real* reason, although #1 is,
of course, a viable concern (disappear or start charging)
and #2 is a complete strawman.
> On Apr 10, 2015, at 11:16 AM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>
> I said as much Jim. As to FUD...
>
> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 6:18 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>
>> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
>> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
>> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
>> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
>> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
>>
>> http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-
>> Foundation-tp5722483p5722847.html
>>
>> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
>> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
>>
>>> On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>>>
>>> It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP
>> (code).
>>> Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google Code)
>> or
>>> worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
>>>
>>> I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that
>> most
>>> brands appear to feel this risk is low.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015, 5:22 PM Gorkem Ercan <go...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 9 Apr 2015, at 15:38, Andrew Grieve wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right now,
>>>>> but I
>>>>> will promise to post back with some formulated thoughts a bit later
>>>>> (some
>>>>> of this I'm prepping for my ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it
>>>>> anyways).
>>>>>
>>>>> Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not
>>>>> constructive.
>>>>> If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not for the
>>>>> sake
>>>>> of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things about
>>>>> others
>>>>> almost always ends up making you look worse than those you are being
>>>>> negative towards.
>>>>>
>>>>> Another angle:
>>>>> Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though your
>>>>> views are
>>>>> your own (although statements like "Or we could just leave the ASF"
>>>>> make it
>>>>> sound like you are representing more than that), your tone often just
>>>>> makes
>>>>> people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to
>>>>> contribute to
>>>>> a project that is full of smileys and encouragement, or one where
>>>>> people
>>>>> are negative and abrasive? It really goes a long way to keep the email
>>>>> tone
>>>>> positive even when you disagree.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova Apache'ers
>>>>> (we
>>>>> are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful:
>>>>> - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us set one
>>>>> up.
>>>>> - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their shared
>>>>> instance.
>>>>> - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a
>>>>> collaboration
>>>>> between Infra and other projects that made it happen (we complained,
>>>>> but
>>>>> didn't do the work to make it possible).
>>>>> - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time (although
>>>>> we
>>>>> decided not to stick with it).
>>>>>
>>>>> Why can we not use Github issues?
>>>>> - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github.
>>>>> - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a conversation that
>>>>> hasn't happened yet.
>>>>> - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but do
>>>>> issue
>>>>> trackers count as "data"?
>>>>
>>>> This may actually be intellectual property related. Eclipse foundation
>>>> which allows GitHub to be used as primary SCM, does not allow GitHub
>>>> as issue tracker because it can not be covered by the Eclipse.org terms
>>>> of use.
>>>>
>>>>> - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have.
>>>>> - dev@community.apache.org would be a great place to start, since
>>>>> that's
>>>>> meant for cross-project discussion.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>>>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree, it
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring to (and
>>>>>>> why *I*
>>>>>>> dread ever posting to this list, shame that question wasn't in the
>>>>>>> Stack
>>>>>>> Overflow survey).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based on the
>>>>>> tone
>>>>>> you're using, I can't be sure. If you're looking to make a personal
>>>>>> attack
>>>>>> on me publicly, then fine, go ahead. On this list, these comments
>>>>>> only
>>>>>> reflect my own personal views. It's clear that people don't agree
>>>>>> with me,
>>>>>> because we're still here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
>>>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>>>>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no additional
>>>>>>>> influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> participation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times. There are
>>>>>> clearly
>>>>>>> people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had to
>>>>>>> fight
>>>>>>> the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this
>>>>>>> project, and
>>>>>>> I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually leave.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the way
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to
>>>>>>>> propose
>>>>>>>> changes that work.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation whose
>>>>>> rules
>>>>>>> aren't as rigid. That could work too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just that.
>>>>>>>> Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there are
>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>> individuals who certainly do not fit into this category, but their
>>>>>>>> voices are usually drowned out.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF. I regret that we
>>>>>> donated
>>>>>>> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been
>>>>>>> complained
>>>>>>> about so many times by our community members who have followed us
>>>>>>> since
>>>>>> we
>>>>>>> started this thing. However, we're stuck here now, and the people
>>>>>>> who
>>>>>> feel
>>>>>>> like working with the ASF are doing so. You're never going to
>>>>>>> convince
>>>>>>> everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially
>>>>>>> since
>>>>>> your
>>>>>>> organization has been passively aggressively attacking various parts
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> JS community for years. Honestly, I think it's a miracle that we
>>>>>>> haven't
>>>>>>> forked yet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>> From: Carlos Santana<ma...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> Sent: 4/9/2015 9:00 AM
>>>>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Joe,
>>>>>>>> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want, while
>>>>>>>> at the same time without being punched in the face :-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Marcel,
>>>>>>>> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you talk
>>>>>>>> to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova
>>>>>>>> developers to see if what is the possibility to use github with the
>>>>>>>> understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving in place
>>>>>> like
>>>>>>> I layout in my email?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana
>>>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
>>>>>>>>>> We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 1. Use Github Issues
>>>>>>>>>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
>>>>>>>>>> Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create
>>>>>>>>>> corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing
>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>> with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at Apache
>>>>>>>>> hate
>>>>>>>> GitHub
>>>>>>>>> with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough problems
>>>>>>>>> just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would love to
>>>>>>>>> dump JIRA
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache
>>>>>>>>> infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less
>>>>>>>>> accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an Apache neckbeard.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache
>>>>>>>>>> Foundation,
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> another open source Foundation? That should not affect the
>>>>>>>>>> community
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>> should still continue to interface in Github.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us leaving
>>>>>>>>> the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed to
>>>>>>>>> use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi existed. One
>>>>>>>>> thing
>>>>>>>>> that I think we
>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>> communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and
>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>> stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF cared
>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>>> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
>>>>>>>>>> <st...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As a survey it's always biased.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The problem
>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>> clearly
>>>>>>>>>>> not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this.
>>>>>>>>>>> They
>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
>>>>>>>>>>> Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile web
>>>>>>>>>>> nor anything relative to the mobile.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>> native :)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Stéphane Bachelier,
>>>>>>>>>>> Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
>>>>>>>>>>> B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
>>>>>>>>>>> jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>>>>>>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I am a developper and I use Cordova.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the
>>>>>>>> details
>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>> how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>> done
>>>>>>>>>>>> and appreciate it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't think
>>>>>>>>>>>> I am
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> only one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as
>>>>>>>>>>>> good as
>>>>>>>>>> native
>>>>>>>>>>>> ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> apps I
>>>>>>>>>>>> work on!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <Tyler@drumpants.com
>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think what colors people's perception the most is the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> graphics
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few
>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>>>>>> reasons:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3
>>>>>>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>>> ago.
>>>>>>>>>>> Even
>>>>>>>>>>>>> though it's improved so much since then, those first apps
>>>>>>>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>>>> hang
>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> people's minds.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern
>>>>>>>>>>>>> WebKit views,
>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> hard and takes a lot of work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> * For instance, I came across an article once that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> recommended
>>>>>>>>> using
>>>>>>>>>>> CSS
>>>>>>>>>>>>> transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed
>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>> whole
>>>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> it. I
>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> making
>>>>>>>>>>>>> top-notch apps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>> iOS-style
>>>>>>>>>>>>> design straight to Android without considering that Android
>>>>>>>>>>>>> users
>>>>>>>>>>> expect
>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do
>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
>>>>>>>>>>>> michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> score
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>> low
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> default
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Git
>>>>>>>>>> Bash,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> development, and
>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> full
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this and
>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> survey
>>>>>>>>>>> results
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> improve.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
>>>>>>>>> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely right :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the
>>>>>>>>> developers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> using
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing
>>>>>>>> nothing
>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the
>>>>>>>>> JS->Native->JS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bridge.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
>>>>>>>>> communitcation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything
>>>>>>>>> special
>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs
>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Toplak
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
>>>>>>>>> happy?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
>>>>>>>>> applications
>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova
>>>>>>>> application
>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another company, you're probably going to end up
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-writing it
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> natively
>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you're more comfortable with.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> soon, and
>>>>>>>>>> both
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technologies share the same property that anyone can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a
>>>>>>>>>> shitty
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> reason,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because I
>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Drupal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care what developers say in a survey, since most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> releasing
>>>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <le...@intel.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (
>>>>>> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
>>>>>>> ).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most Dreaded technologies:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Salesforce 73.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual Basic 72.0%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress 68.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matlab 65.6%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sharepoint 62.8%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LAMP 62.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perl 59.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova 58.8%
>>>>>>> **************
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffeescript 54.7%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other 57.3%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> % of devs who are developing with the language or tech
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expressed interest in continuing to do so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>>>>>> answers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>>>> looking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback from those who have heard developers express
>>>>>>>>>> frustration
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * There is no problem - unclear question led to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> answer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * The problem is really about creating native
>>>>>> apps
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JavaScript +
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HTML5
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Cordova CLI has a quality problem
>>>>>> (learnability |
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> usability |
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliability)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too hard to set up development environment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o The command CLI is too complicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Not enough learning material (documentation,
>>>>>> articles,
>>>>>>>>>> books)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too many bugs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Changes too frequently
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leo
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Freeman
>>>>>>>>>>>>> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from mobile
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordialement,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Voltaire José-luc
>>>>>>>>>>>> Directeur Technique
>>>>>>>>>>>> Netdevices
>>>>>>>>>>>> e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
>>>>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
>>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>>
>>
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Re: Github, again.
Posted by Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io>.
Jim, I'm not an antagonist. The reframing and scare quoting is not
appreciated. If I didn't see the value of the ASF I would not have proposed
incubation, pursued graduation compliance, and even stayed after hostile
members attack me personally on and off list intermittently for the past
three years and still running today!
I also do not appreciate being openly mocked by you and others externally
(yes it gets back to me!) but the good news is most people I respect
understand the issues with toxic communication and CoC was a good step in
fixing that.
At some point I'd love to see enforcement of it.
I'm not such a loser as to go to ApacheCon just to be a dick and indeed I
look forward to that pint and finding some level of reasonable discourse.
Lets end this thread. I look forward to talk f2f in Austin about
provenance, release automation, release distribution and whether or not it
is a good idea for board members should have a >1 term.
Respectfully,
Brian
On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> Not at all. I simply state that, imo, your antagonism towards
> the ASF colors your ability to be "unbiased" in this discussion,
> even when people "correct" your mistakes. I don't see how
> statements such as "typically boogyman stuff" and "shot down of course"
> and "likelyhood of these scare scenarios" as helping to drive the
> conversation at all, since it strongly implies that the reasons
> and rationale behind them are baseless, "existential" things
> and not actual risks that people actually care about.
>
> You may feel that some of these wants are "acceptable risks"...
> Thankfully, there are those who understand those risks better
> and are working to help Cordova *avoid* them, rather than
> rush into them based on inaccurate data.
>
> I'm more than willing to discuss this further over a pint
> at ApacheCon.
>
> > On Apr 10, 2015, at 12:12 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> >
> > At least the ad hominem attacks are veiled in public now. Very
> professional
> > non answer dodge there Jim!
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 9:09 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> >
> >> If there is someone who has suggestions who actually understands
> >> the concerns and understands the risks (instead of either
> >> dismissing them out-of-hand or completely misrepresenting them)
> >> then I would assume that operations@ would be more than willing
> >> to listen.
> >>
> >>> On Apr 10, 2015, at 11:52 AM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> And actually, a colleague recalled we talked about on prem w github
> entp
> >>> too. Which totally addresses the issue. It was shot down of course
> >> despite
> >>> github offering to donate to apache.
> >>>
> >>> Now maybe this is possible?
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 8:16 AM Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I said as much Jim. As to FUD...
> >>>>
> >>>> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 6:18 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
> >>>>> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
> >>>>> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
> >>>>> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
> >>>>> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-Founda
> >>>>> tion-tp5722483p5722847.html
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
> >>>>> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP
> >>>>> (code).
> >>>>>> Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google
> >> Code)
> >>>>> or
> >>>>>> worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting
> that
> >>>>> most
> >>>>>> brands appear to feel this risk is low.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015, 5:22 PM Gorkem Ercan <go...@gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 9 Apr 2015, at 15:38, Andrew Grieve wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right
> now,
> >>>>>>>> but I
> >>>>>>>> will promise to post back with some formulated thoughts a bit
> later
> >>>>>>>> (some
> >>>>>>>> of this I'm prepping for my ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it
> >>>>>>>> anyways).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not
> >>>>>>>> constructive.
> >>>>>>>> If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not for
> >> the
> >>>>>>>> sake
> >>>>>>>> of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things about
> >>>>>>>> others
> >>>>>>>> almost always ends up making you look worse than those you are
> being
> >>>>>>>> negative towards.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Another angle:
> >>>>>>>> Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though your
> >>>>>>>> views are
> >>>>>>>> your own (although statements like "Or we could just leave the
> ASF"
> >>>>>>>> make it
> >>>>>>>> sound like you are representing more than that), your tone often
> >> just
> >>>>>>>> makes
> >>>>>>>> people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to
> >>>>>>>> contribute to
> >>>>>>>> a project that is full of smileys and encouragement, or one where
> >>>>>>>> people
> >>>>>>>> are negative and abrasive? It really goes a long way to keep the
> >> email
> >>>>>>>> tone
> >>>>>>>> positive even when you disagree.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova
> >> Apache'ers
> >>>>>>>> (we
> >>>>>>>> are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful:
> >>>>>>>> - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us set
> one
> >>>>>>>> up.
> >>>>>>>> - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their
> shared
> >>>>>>>> instance.
> >>>>>>>> - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a
> >>>>>>>> collaboration
> >>>>>>>> between Infra and other projects that made it happen (we
> complained,
> >>>>>>>> but
> >>>>>>>> didn't do the work to make it possible).
> >>>>>>>> - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time
> >> (although
> >>>>>>>> we
> >>>>>>>> decided not to stick with it).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Why can we not use Github issues?
> >>>>>>>> - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github.
> >>>>>>>> - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a conversation
> >> that
> >>>>>>>> hasn't happened yet.
> >>>>>>>> - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but do
> >>>>>>>> issue
> >>>>>>>> trackers count as "data"?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> This may actually be intellectual property related. Eclipse
> >> foundation
> >>>>>>> which allows GitHub to be used as primary SCM, does not allow
> GitHub
> >>>>>>> as issue tracker because it can not be covered by the Eclipse.org
> >> terms
> >>>>>>> of use.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have.
> >>>>>>>> - dev@community.apache.org would be a great place to start, since
> >>>>>>>> that's
> >>>>>>>> meant for cross-project discussion.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> >>>>>>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree,
> it
> >>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>> offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring to
> (and
> >>>>>>>>>> why *I*
> >>>>>>>>>> dread ever posting to this list, shame that question wasn't in
> the
> >>>>>>>>>> Stack
> >>>>>>>>>> Overflow survey).
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based on the
> >>>>>>>>> tone
> >>>>>>>>> you're using, I can't be sure. If you're looking to make a
> >> personal
> >>>>>>>>> attack
> >>>>>>>>> on me publicly, then fine, go ahead. On this list, these
> comments
> >>>>>>>>> only
> >>>>>>>>> reflect my own personal views. It's clear that people don't
> agree
> >>>>>>>>> with me,
> >>>>>>>>> because we're still here.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Joe
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Ross
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>>>> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
> >>>>>>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers
> happy?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> >>>>>>>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no
> >> additional
> >>>>>>>>>>> influence. What matters around here is constructive
> contributions
> >>>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>> participation.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times. There
> are
> >>>>>>>>> clearly
> >>>>>>>>>> people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had
> to
> >>>>>>>>>> fight
> >>>>>>>>>> the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this
> >>>>>>>>>> project, and
> >>>>>>>>>> I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually
> leave.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the
> way
> >>>>>>>>>>> they
> >>>>>>>>>>> are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to
> >>>>>>>>>>> propose
> >>>>>>>>>>> changes that work.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation
> >> whose
> >>>>>>>>> rules
> >>>>>>>>>> aren't as rigid. That could work too.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just
> >> that.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there
> are
> >>>>>>>>>>> some
> >>>>>>>>>>> individuals who certainly do not fit into this category, but
> >> their
> >>>>>>>>>>> voices are usually drowned out.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF. I regret that
> we
> >>>>>>>>> donated
> >>>>>>>>>> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been
> >>>>>>>>>> complained
> >>>>>>>>>> about so many times by our community members who have followed
> us
> >>>>>>>>>> since
> >>>>>>>>> we
> >>>>>>>>>> started this thing. However, we're stuck here now, and the
> people
> >>>>>>>>>> who
> >>>>>>>>> feel
> >>>>>>>>>> like working with the ASF are doing so. You're never going to
> >>>>>>>>>> convince
> >>>>>>>>>> everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially
> >>>>>>>>>> since
> >>>>>>>>> your
> >>>>>>>>>> organization has been passively aggressively attacking various
> >> parts
> >>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>> JS community for years. Honestly, I think it's a miracle that
> we
> >>>>>>>>>> haven't
> >>>>>>>>>> forked yet.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Joe
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Ross
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
> >>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>> From: Carlos Santana<ma...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 4/9/2015 9:00 AM
> >>>>>>>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers
> happy?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Joe,
> >>>>>>>>>>> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want,
> >> while
> >>>>>>>>>>> at the same time without being punched in the face :-)
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Marcel,
> >>>>>>>>>>> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you
> >> talk
> >>>>>>>>>>> to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova
> >>>>>>>>>>> developers to see if what is the possibility to use github with
> >> the
> >>>>>>>>>>> understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving in
> >> place
> >>>>>>>>> like
> >>>>>>>>>> I layout in my email?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com
> >
> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana
> >>>>>>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Use Github Issues
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to
> create
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> this
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at Apache
> >>>>>>>>>>>> hate
> >>>>>>>>>>> GitHub
> >>>>>>>>>>>> with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough
> >> problems
> >>>>>>>>>>>> just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would love
> >> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> dump JIRA
> >>>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the
> Apache
> >>>>>>>>>>>> infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less
> >>>>>>>>>>>> accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an Apache
> >> neckbeard.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Foundation,
> >>>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> another open source Foundation? That should not affect the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> community
> >>>>>>>>>>> they
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> should still continue to interface in Github.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us
> >> leaving
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed
> >> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi existed. One
> >>>>>>>>>>>> thing
> >>>>>>>>>>>> that I think we
> >>>>>>>>>>> don't
> >>>>>>>>>>>> communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies
> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> how
> >>>>>>>>>>> these
> >>>>>>>>>>>> stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF
> cared
> >>>>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>>> such
> >>>>>>>>>>>> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more
> clearly.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> <st...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> As a survey it's always biased.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The
> >> problem
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> clearly
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand
> this.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> They
> >>>>>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile
> >> web
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nor anything relative to the mobile.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and
> most
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>> them
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> native :)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stéphane Bachelier,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> :
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am a developper and I use Cordova.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all
> the
> >>>>>>>>>>> details
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of
> >> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> done
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and appreciate it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't
> >> think
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only one.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good as
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> native
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to
> do
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> apps I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work on!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <
> >> Tyler@drumpants.com
> >>>>>>>>>> :
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think what colors people's perception the most is the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> graphics
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> reasons:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years
> >>>>>>>>>>>> ago.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Even
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> though it's improved so much since then, those first apps
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still
> >>>>>>>>>>>> hang
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people's minds.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WebKit views,
> >>>>>>>>>>> but
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hard and takes a lot of work.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * For instance, I came across an article once that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recommended
> >>>>>>>>>>>> using
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> CSS
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
> >>>>>>>>>>> whole
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> way
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better
> because
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>>> it. I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> making
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> top-notch apps.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> iOS-style
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> design straight to Android without considering that
> Android
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> expect
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> this.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> score
> >>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> low
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because over 50% of the participants are Windows users
> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> default
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova experience on Windows is extremely
> unconventional -
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Git
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Bash,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> development, and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> no
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> full
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> as
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> survey
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> results
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> improve.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
> >>>>>>>>>>>> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely right :-)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> using
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing
> >>>>>>>>>>> nothing
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> JS->Native->JS
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bridge.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
> >>>>>>>>>>>> communitcation
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugins.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if
> anything
> >>>>>>>>>>>> special
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a
> problem.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The other thing is that there are some JS
> frameworks/libs
> >>>>>>>>>>> which
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>>>> :-)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Toplak
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >>>>>>>>>>>> happy?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone can
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
> >>>>>>>>>>>> applications
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova
> >>>>>>>>>>> application
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another company, you're probably going to end up
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-writing it
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> natively
> >>>>>>>>>>>> because
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you're more comfortable with.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> soon, and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> both
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technologies share the same property that anyone can
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> shitty
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> website. We've been called the Drupal of development
> for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> reason,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and at
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Drupal
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
> >>>>>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> we
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care what developers say in a survey, since most
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >>>>>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> releasing
> >>>>>>>>>>>> isn't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <le...@intel.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (
> >>>>>>>>> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
> >>>>>>>>>> ).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most Dreaded technologies:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Salesforce 73.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual Basic 72.0%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress 68.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matlab 65.6%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sharepoint 62.8%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LAMP 62.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perl 59.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova 58.8%
> >>>>>>>>>> **************
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffeescript 54.7%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other 57.3%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> % of devs who are developing with the language or tech
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
> >>>>>>>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expressed interest in continuing to do so.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> answers.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> looking
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback from those who have heard developers express
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> frustration
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * There is no problem - unclear question led to
> >>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> answer
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * The problem is really about creating native
> >>>>>>>>> apps
> >>>>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JavaScript +
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HTML5
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Cordova CLI has a quality problem
> >>>>>>>>> (learnability |
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> usability |
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliability)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too hard to set up development environment
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o The command CLI is too complicated
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Not enough learning material (documentation,
> >>>>>>>>> articles,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> books)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too many bugs
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Changes too frequently
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leo
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Freeman
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from mobile
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordialement,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Voltaire José-luc
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Directeur Technique
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Netdevices
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
> >>>>>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> ---------
> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >>
> >>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>
>
Re: Github, again.
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
Not at all. I simply state that, imo, your antagonism towards
the ASF colors your ability to be "unbiased" in this discussion,
even when people "correct" your mistakes. I don't see how
statements such as "typically boogyman stuff" and "shot down of course"
and "likelyhood of these scare scenarios" as helping to drive the
conversation at all, since it strongly implies that the reasons
and rationale behind them are baseless, "existential" things
and not actual risks that people actually care about.
You may feel that some of these wants are "acceptable risks"...
Thankfully, there are those who understand those risks better
and are working to help Cordova *avoid* them, rather than
rush into them based on inaccurate data.
I'm more than willing to discuss this further over a pint
at ApacheCon.
> On Apr 10, 2015, at 12:12 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>
> At least the ad hominem attacks are veiled in public now. Very professional
> non answer dodge there Jim!
>
> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 9:09 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>
>> If there is someone who has suggestions who actually understands
>> the concerns and understands the risks (instead of either
>> dismissing them out-of-hand or completely misrepresenting them)
>> then I would assume that operations@ would be more than willing
>> to listen.
>>
>>> On Apr 10, 2015, at 11:52 AM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>>>
>>> And actually, a colleague recalled we talked about on prem w github entp
>>> too. Which totally addresses the issue. It was shot down of course
>> despite
>>> github offering to donate to apache.
>>>
>>> Now maybe this is possible?
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 8:16 AM Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I said as much Jim. As to FUD...
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 6:18 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
>>>>> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
>>>>> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
>>>>> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
>>>>> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-Founda
>>>>> tion-tp5722483p5722847.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
>>>>> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP
>>>>> (code).
>>>>>> Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google
>> Code)
>>>>> or
>>>>>> worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that
>>>>> most
>>>>>> brands appear to feel this risk is low.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015, 5:22 PM Gorkem Ercan <go...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 9 Apr 2015, at 15:38, Andrew Grieve wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right now,
>>>>>>>> but I
>>>>>>>> will promise to post back with some formulated thoughts a bit later
>>>>>>>> (some
>>>>>>>> of this I'm prepping for my ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it
>>>>>>>> anyways).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not
>>>>>>>> constructive.
>>>>>>>> If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not for
>> the
>>>>>>>> sake
>>>>>>>> of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things about
>>>>>>>> others
>>>>>>>> almost always ends up making you look worse than those you are being
>>>>>>>> negative towards.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Another angle:
>>>>>>>> Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though your
>>>>>>>> views are
>>>>>>>> your own (although statements like "Or we could just leave the ASF"
>>>>>>>> make it
>>>>>>>> sound like you are representing more than that), your tone often
>> just
>>>>>>>> makes
>>>>>>>> people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to
>>>>>>>> contribute to
>>>>>>>> a project that is full of smileys and encouragement, or one where
>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>> are negative and abrasive? It really goes a long way to keep the
>> email
>>>>>>>> tone
>>>>>>>> positive even when you disagree.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova
>> Apache'ers
>>>>>>>> (we
>>>>>>>> are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful:
>>>>>>>> - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us set one
>>>>>>>> up.
>>>>>>>> - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their shared
>>>>>>>> instance.
>>>>>>>> - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a
>>>>>>>> collaboration
>>>>>>>> between Infra and other projects that made it happen (we complained,
>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>> didn't do the work to make it possible).
>>>>>>>> - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time
>> (although
>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>> decided not to stick with it).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why can we not use Github issues?
>>>>>>>> - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github.
>>>>>>>> - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a conversation
>> that
>>>>>>>> hasn't happened yet.
>>>>>>>> - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but do
>>>>>>>> issue
>>>>>>>> trackers count as "data"?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This may actually be intellectual property related. Eclipse
>> foundation
>>>>>>> which allows GitHub to be used as primary SCM, does not allow GitHub
>>>>>>> as issue tracker because it can not be covered by the Eclipse.org
>> terms
>>>>>>> of use.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have.
>>>>>>>> - dev@community.apache.org would be a great place to start, since
>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>> meant for cross-project discussion.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>>>>>>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree, it
>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>> offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring to (and
>>>>>>>>>> why *I*
>>>>>>>>>> dread ever posting to this list, shame that question wasn't in the
>>>>>>>>>> Stack
>>>>>>>>>> Overflow survey).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based on the
>>>>>>>>> tone
>>>>>>>>> you're using, I can't be sure. If you're looking to make a
>> personal
>>>>>>>>> attack
>>>>>>>>> on me publicly, then fine, go ahead. On this list, these comments
>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>> reflect my own personal views. It's clear that people don't agree
>>>>>>>>> with me,
>>>>>>>>> because we're still here.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
>>>>>>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>>>>>>>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no
>> additional
>>>>>>>>>>> influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> participation.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times. There are
>>>>>>>>> clearly
>>>>>>>>>> people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had to
>>>>>>>>>> fight
>>>>>>>>>> the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this
>>>>>>>>>> project, and
>>>>>>>>>> I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually leave.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the way
>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>> are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to
>>>>>>>>>>> propose
>>>>>>>>>>> changes that work.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation
>> whose
>>>>>>>>> rules
>>>>>>>>>> aren't as rigid. That could work too.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just
>> that.
>>>>>>>>>>> Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there are
>>>>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>>>> individuals who certainly do not fit into this category, but
>> their
>>>>>>>>>>> voices are usually drowned out.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF. I regret that we
>>>>>>>>> donated
>>>>>>>>>> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been
>>>>>>>>>> complained
>>>>>>>>>> about so many times by our community members who have followed us
>>>>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>> started this thing. However, we're stuck here now, and the people
>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>> feel
>>>>>>>>>> like working with the ASF are doing so. You're never going to
>>>>>>>>>> convince
>>>>>>>>>> everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially
>>>>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>> organization has been passively aggressively attacking various
>> parts
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> JS community for years. Honestly, I think it's a miracle that we
>>>>>>>>>> haven't
>>>>>>>>>> forked yet.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> From: Carlos Santana<ma...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 4/9/2015 9:00 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Joe,
>>>>>>>>>>> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want,
>> while
>>>>>>>>>>> at the same time without being punched in the face :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Marcel,
>>>>>>>>>>> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you
>> talk
>>>>>>>>>>> to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova
>>>>>>>>>>> developers to see if what is the possibility to use github with
>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving in
>> place
>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>> I layout in my email?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana
>>>>>>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Use Github Issues
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create
>>>>>>>>>>>>> corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing
>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at Apache
>>>>>>>>>>>> hate
>>>>>>>>>>> GitHub
>>>>>>>>>>>> with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough
>> problems
>>>>>>>>>>>> just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would love
>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> dump JIRA
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache
>>>>>>>>>>>> infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less
>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an Apache
>> neckbeard.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Foundation,
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> another open source Foundation? That should not affect the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> community
>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>> should still continue to interface in Github.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us
>> leaving
>>>>>>>>>>>> the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed
>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi existed. One
>>>>>>>>>>>> thing
>>>>>>>>>>>> that I think we
>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>> communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and
>>>>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>>>> stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF cared
>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>>>>>> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <st...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As a survey it's always biased.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The
>> problem
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> clearly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They
>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile
>> web
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nor anything relative to the mobile.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> native :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stéphane Bachelier,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am a developper and I use Cordova.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the
>>>>>>>>>>> details
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of
>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>>>> done
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and appreciate it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't
>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> native
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> apps I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work on!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <
>> Tyler@drumpants.com
>>>>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think what colors people's perception the most is the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> graphics
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reasons:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>>>>>> ago.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> though it's improved so much since then, those first apps
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>>>>>>> hang
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people's minds.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WebKit views,
>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hard and takes a lot of work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * For instance, I came across an article once that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recommended
>>>>>>>>>>>> using
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CSS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>> whole
>>>>>>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> it. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> making
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> top-notch apps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>> iOS-style
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> design straight to Android without considering that Android
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expect
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> score
>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> low
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> default
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Git
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bash,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> development, and
>>>>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> full
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this and
>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> survey
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> results
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> improve.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
>>>>>>>>>>>> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely right :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> using
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing
>>>>>>>>>>> nothing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the
>>>>>>>>>>>> JS->Native->JS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bridge.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
>>>>>>>>>>>> communitcation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything
>>>>>>>>>>>> special
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs
>>>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Toplak
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
>>>>>>>>>>>> happy?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
>>>>>>>>>>>> applications
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova
>>>>>>>>>>> application
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another company, you're probably going to end up
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-writing it
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> natively
>>>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you're more comfortable with.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> soon, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> both
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technologies share the same property that anyone can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> shitty
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reason,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Drupal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care what developers say in a survey, since most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> releasing
>>>>>>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <le...@intel.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (
>>>>>>>>> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
>>>>>>>>>> ).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most Dreaded technologies:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Salesforce 73.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual Basic 72.0%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress 68.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matlab 65.6%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sharepoint 62.8%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LAMP 62.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perl 59.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova 58.8%
>>>>>>>>>> **************
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffeescript 54.7%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other 57.3%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> % of devs who are developing with the language or tech
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expressed interest in continuing to do so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>>>>>>>>> answers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>>>>>>> looking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback from those who have heard developers express
>>>>>>>>>>>>> frustration
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * There is no problem - unclear question led to
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * The problem is really about creating native
>>>>>>>>> apps
>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JavaScript +
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HTML5
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Cordova CLI has a quality problem
>>>>>>>>> (learnability |
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> usability |
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliability)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too hard to set up development environment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o The command CLI is too complicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Not enough learning material (documentation,
>>>>>>>>> articles,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> books)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too many bugs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Changes too frequently
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leo
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Freeman
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from mobile
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordialement,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Voltaire José-luc
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Directeur Technique
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Netdevices
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
>>>>>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---------
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>>
>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
Re: Github, again.
Posted by Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io>.
At least the ad hominem attacks are veiled in public now. Very professional
non answer dodge there Jim!
On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 9:09 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> If there is someone who has suggestions who actually understands
> the concerns and understands the risks (instead of either
> dismissing them out-of-hand or completely misrepresenting them)
> then I would assume that operations@ would be more than willing
> to listen.
>
> > On Apr 10, 2015, at 11:52 AM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> >
> > And actually, a colleague recalled we talked about on prem w github entp
> > too. Which totally addresses the issue. It was shot down of course
> despite
> > github offering to donate to apache.
> >
> > Now maybe this is possible?
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 8:16 AM Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> >
> >> I said as much Jim. As to FUD...
> >>
> >> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 6:18 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
> >>> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
> >>> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
> >>> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
> >>> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
> >>>
> >>> http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-Founda
> >>> tion-tp5722483p5722847.html
> >>>
> >>> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
> >>> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
> >>>
> >>>> On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP
> >>> (code).
> >>>> Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google
> Code)
> >>> or
> >>>> worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that
> >>> most
> >>>> brands appear to feel this risk is low.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015, 5:22 PM Gorkem Ercan <go...@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 9 Apr 2015, at 15:38, Andrew Grieve wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right now,
> >>>>>> but I
> >>>>>> will promise to post back with some formulated thoughts a bit later
> >>>>>> (some
> >>>>>> of this I'm prepping for my ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it
> >>>>>> anyways).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not
> >>>>>> constructive.
> >>>>>> If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not for
> the
> >>>>>> sake
> >>>>>> of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things about
> >>>>>> others
> >>>>>> almost always ends up making you look worse than those you are being
> >>>>>> negative towards.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Another angle:
> >>>>>> Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though your
> >>>>>> views are
> >>>>>> your own (although statements like "Or we could just leave the ASF"
> >>>>>> make it
> >>>>>> sound like you are representing more than that), your tone often
> just
> >>>>>> makes
> >>>>>> people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to
> >>>>>> contribute to
> >>>>>> a project that is full of smileys and encouragement, or one where
> >>>>>> people
> >>>>>> are negative and abrasive? It really goes a long way to keep the
> email
> >>>>>> tone
> >>>>>> positive even when you disagree.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova
> Apache'ers
> >>>>>> (we
> >>>>>> are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful:
> >>>>>> - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us set one
> >>>>>> up.
> >>>>>> - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their shared
> >>>>>> instance.
> >>>>>> - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a
> >>>>>> collaboration
> >>>>>> between Infra and other projects that made it happen (we complained,
> >>>>>> but
> >>>>>> didn't do the work to make it possible).
> >>>>>> - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time
> (although
> >>>>>> we
> >>>>>> decided not to stick with it).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Why can we not use Github issues?
> >>>>>> - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github.
> >>>>>> - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a conversation
> that
> >>>>>> hasn't happened yet.
> >>>>>> - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but do
> >>>>>> issue
> >>>>>> trackers count as "data"?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This may actually be intellectual property related. Eclipse
> foundation
> >>>>> which allows GitHub to be used as primary SCM, does not allow GitHub
> >>>>> as issue tracker because it can not be covered by the Eclipse.org
> terms
> >>>>> of use.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have.
> >>>>>> - dev@community.apache.org would be a great place to start, since
> >>>>>> that's
> >>>>>> meant for cross-project discussion.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> >>>>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree, it
> >>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>> offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring to (and
> >>>>>>>> why *I*
> >>>>>>>> dread ever posting to this list, shame that question wasn't in the
> >>>>>>>> Stack
> >>>>>>>> Overflow survey).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based on the
> >>>>>>> tone
> >>>>>>> you're using, I can't be sure. If you're looking to make a
> personal
> >>>>>>> attack
> >>>>>>> on me publicly, then fine, go ahead. On this list, these comments
> >>>>>>> only
> >>>>>>> reflect my own personal views. It's clear that people don't agree
> >>>>>>> with me,
> >>>>>>> because we're still here.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Joe
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Ross
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
> >>>>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> >>>>>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no
> additional
> >>>>>>>>> influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions
> >>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>> participation.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times. There are
> >>>>>>> clearly
> >>>>>>>> people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had to
> >>>>>>>> fight
> >>>>>>>> the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this
> >>>>>>>> project, and
> >>>>>>>> I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually leave.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the way
> >>>>>>>>> they
> >>>>>>>>> are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to
> >>>>>>>>> propose
> >>>>>>>>> changes that work.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation
> whose
> >>>>>>> rules
> >>>>>>>> aren't as rigid. That could work too.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just
> that.
> >>>>>>>>> Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there are
> >>>>>>>>> some
> >>>>>>>>> individuals who certainly do not fit into this category, but
> their
> >>>>>>>>> voices are usually drowned out.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF. I regret that we
> >>>>>>> donated
> >>>>>>>> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been
> >>>>>>>> complained
> >>>>>>>> about so many times by our community members who have followed us
> >>>>>>>> since
> >>>>>>> we
> >>>>>>>> started this thing. However, we're stuck here now, and the people
> >>>>>>>> who
> >>>>>>> feel
> >>>>>>>> like working with the ASF are doing so. You're never going to
> >>>>>>>> convince
> >>>>>>>> everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially
> >>>>>>>> since
> >>>>>>> your
> >>>>>>>> organization has been passively aggressively attacking various
> parts
> >>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> JS community for years. Honestly, I think it's a miracle that we
> >>>>>>>> haven't
> >>>>>>>> forked yet.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Joe
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Ross
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
> >>>>>>>>> ________________________________
> >>>>>>>>> From: Carlos Santana<ma...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>> Sent: 4/9/2015 9:00 AM
> >>>>>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Joe,
> >>>>>>>>> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want,
> while
> >>>>>>>>> at the same time without being punched in the face :-)
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Marcel,
> >>>>>>>>> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you
> talk
> >>>>>>>>> to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova
> >>>>>>>>> developers to see if what is the possibility to use github with
> the
> >>>>>>>>> understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving in
> place
> >>>>>>> like
> >>>>>>>> I layout in my email?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana
> >>>>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
> >>>>>>>>>>> We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> 1. Use Github Issues
> >>>>>>>>>>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
> >>>>>>>>>>> Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create
> >>>>>>>>>>> corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing
> >>>>>>>>>>> this
> >>>>>>>>>>> with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at Apache
> >>>>>>>>>> hate
> >>>>>>>>> GitHub
> >>>>>>>>>> with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough
> problems
> >>>>>>>>>> just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would love
> to
> >>>>>>>>>> dump JIRA
> >>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache
> >>>>>>>>>> infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less
> >>>>>>>>>> accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an Apache
> neckbeard.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache
> >>>>>>>>>>> Foundation,
> >>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>> another open source Foundation? That should not affect the
> >>>>>>>>>>> community
> >>>>>>>>> they
> >>>>>>>>>>> should still continue to interface in Github.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us
> leaving
> >>>>>>>>>> the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed
> to
> >>>>>>>>>> use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi existed. One
> >>>>>>>>>> thing
> >>>>>>>>>> that I think we
> >>>>>>>>> don't
> >>>>>>>>>> communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and
> >>>>>>>>>> how
> >>>>>>>>> these
> >>>>>>>>>> stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF cared
> >>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>> such
> >>>>>>>>>> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
> >>>>>>>>>>> <st...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> As a survey it's always biased.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The
> problem
> >>>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>> clearly
> >>>>>>>>>>>> not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> They
> >>>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile
> web
> >>>>>>>>>>>> nor anything relative to the mobile.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most
> >>>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>> them
> >>>>>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>>>> native :)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Stéphane Bachelier,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
> >>>>>>>>>>>> B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
> >>>>>>>>>>>> jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> :
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am a developper and I use Cordova.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the
> >>>>>>>>> details
> >>>>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of
> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> work
> >>>>>>>>>>> done
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and appreciate it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't
> think
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am
> >>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> only one.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> good as
> >>>>>>>>>>> native
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> apps I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> work on!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <
> Tyler@drumpants.com
> >>>>>>>> :
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think what colors people's perception the most is the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> graphics
> >>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
> >>>>>>>>>>> reasons:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> years
> >>>>>>>>>> ago.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Even
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> though it's improved so much since then, those first apps
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> still
> >>>>>>>>>> hang
> >>>>>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> people's minds.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> WebKit views,
> >>>>>>>>> but
> >>>>>>>>>>>> it's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> hard and takes a lot of work.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * For instance, I came across an article once that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> recommended
> >>>>>>>>>> using
> >>>>>>>>>>>> CSS
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
> >>>>>>>>> whole
> >>>>>>>>>>> way
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>> it. I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> making
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> top-notch apps.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
> >>>>>>>>>>> iOS-style
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> design straight to Android without considering that Android
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> users
> >>>>>>>>>>>> expect
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>>> this.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> score
> >>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>> low
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>> default
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional -
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Git
> >>>>>>>>>>> Bash,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> development, and
> >>>>>>>>>> no
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> full
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this and
> >>>>>>>>>> as
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> survey
> >>>>>>>>>>>> results
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> improve.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
> >>>>>>>>>> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely right :-)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the
> >>>>>>>>>> developers
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> using
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing
> >>>>>>>>> nothing
> >>>>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the
> >>>>>>>>>> JS->Native->JS
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bridge.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
> >>>>>>>>>> communitcation
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugins.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything
> >>>>>>>>>> special
> >>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs
> >>>>>>>>> which
> >>>>>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>> :-)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Toplak
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >>>>>>>>>> happy?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone can
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
> >>>>>>>>>> applications
> >>>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova
> >>>>>>>>> application
> >>>>>>>>>>>> from
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another company, you're probably going to end up
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-writing it
> >>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> if
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> natively
> >>>>>>>>>> because
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you're more comfortable with.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> soon, and
> >>>>>>>>>>> both
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technologies share the same property that anyone can
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a
> >>>>>>>>>>> shitty
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>> reason,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and at
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because I
> >>>>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Drupal
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
> >>>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>> we
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care what developers say in a survey, since most
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >>>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> releasing
> >>>>>>>>>> isn't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <le...@intel.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (
> >>>>>>> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
> >>>>>>>> ).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most Dreaded technologies:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Salesforce 73.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual Basic 72.0%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress 68.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matlab 65.6%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sharepoint 62.8%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LAMP 62.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perl 59.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova 58.8%
> >>>>>>>> **************
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffeescript 54.7%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other 57.3%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> % of devs who are developing with the language or tech
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
> >>>>>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expressed interest in continuing to do so.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
> >>>>>>>>>>> answers.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather
> >>>>>>>>>>> looking
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback from those who have heard developers express
> >>>>>>>>>>> frustration
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * There is no problem - unclear question led to
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>> answer
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * The problem is really about creating native
> >>>>>>> apps
> >>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JavaScript +
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HTML5
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Cordova CLI has a quality problem
> >>>>>>> (learnability |
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> usability |
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliability)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too hard to set up development environment
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o The command CLI is too complicated
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Not enough learning material (documentation,
> >>>>>>> articles,
> >>>>>>>>>>> books)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too many bugs
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Changes too frequently
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leo
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Freeman
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from mobile
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordialement,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Voltaire José-luc
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Directeur Technique
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Netdevices
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
> >>>>>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
> >>>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >>>
> >>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>
>
Re: Github, again.
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
If there is someone who has suggestions who actually understands
the concerns and understands the risks (instead of either
dismissing them out-of-hand or completely misrepresenting them)
then I would assume that operations@ would be more than willing
to listen.
> On Apr 10, 2015, at 11:52 AM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>
> And actually, a colleague recalled we talked about on prem w github entp
> too. Which totally addresses the issue. It was shot down of course despite
> github offering to donate to apache.
>
> Now maybe this is possible?
>
> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 8:16 AM Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>
>> I said as much Jim. As to FUD...
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 6:18 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
>>> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
>>> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
>>> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
>>> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
>>>
>>> http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-Founda
>>> tion-tp5722483p5722847.html
>>>
>>> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
>>> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
>>>
>>>> On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP
>>> (code).
>>>> Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google Code)
>>> or
>>>> worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
>>>>
>>>> I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that
>>> most
>>>> brands appear to feel this risk is low.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015, 5:22 PM Gorkem Ercan <go...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 9 Apr 2015, at 15:38, Andrew Grieve wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right now,
>>>>>> but I
>>>>>> will promise to post back with some formulated thoughts a bit later
>>>>>> (some
>>>>>> of this I'm prepping for my ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it
>>>>>> anyways).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not
>>>>>> constructive.
>>>>>> If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not for the
>>>>>> sake
>>>>>> of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things about
>>>>>> others
>>>>>> almost always ends up making you look worse than those you are being
>>>>>> negative towards.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Another angle:
>>>>>> Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though your
>>>>>> views are
>>>>>> your own (although statements like "Or we could just leave the ASF"
>>>>>> make it
>>>>>> sound like you are representing more than that), your tone often just
>>>>>> makes
>>>>>> people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to
>>>>>> contribute to
>>>>>> a project that is full of smileys and encouragement, or one where
>>>>>> people
>>>>>> are negative and abrasive? It really goes a long way to keep the email
>>>>>> tone
>>>>>> positive even when you disagree.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova Apache'ers
>>>>>> (we
>>>>>> are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful:
>>>>>> - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us set one
>>>>>> up.
>>>>>> - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their shared
>>>>>> instance.
>>>>>> - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a
>>>>>> collaboration
>>>>>> between Infra and other projects that made it happen (we complained,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> didn't do the work to make it possible).
>>>>>> - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time (although
>>>>>> we
>>>>>> decided not to stick with it).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why can we not use Github issues?
>>>>>> - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github.
>>>>>> - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a conversation that
>>>>>> hasn't happened yet.
>>>>>> - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but do
>>>>>> issue
>>>>>> trackers count as "data"?
>>>>>
>>>>> This may actually be intellectual property related. Eclipse foundation
>>>>> which allows GitHub to be used as primary SCM, does not allow GitHub
>>>>> as issue tracker because it can not be covered by the Eclipse.org terms
>>>>> of use.
>>>>>
>>>>>> - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have.
>>>>>> - dev@community.apache.org would be a great place to start, since
>>>>>> that's
>>>>>> meant for cross-project discussion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>>>>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree, it
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring to (and
>>>>>>>> why *I*
>>>>>>>> dread ever posting to this list, shame that question wasn't in the
>>>>>>>> Stack
>>>>>>>> Overflow survey).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based on the
>>>>>>> tone
>>>>>>> you're using, I can't be sure. If you're looking to make a personal
>>>>>>> attack
>>>>>>> on me publicly, then fine, go ahead. On this list, these comments
>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>> reflect my own personal views. It's clear that people don't agree
>>>>>>> with me,
>>>>>>> because we're still here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
>>>>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>>>>>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no additional
>>>>>>>>> influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> participation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times. There are
>>>>>>> clearly
>>>>>>>> people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had to
>>>>>>>> fight
>>>>>>>> the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this
>>>>>>>> project, and
>>>>>>>> I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually leave.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the way
>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>> are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to
>>>>>>>>> propose
>>>>>>>>> changes that work.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation whose
>>>>>>> rules
>>>>>>>> aren't as rigid. That could work too.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just that.
>>>>>>>>> Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there are
>>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>> individuals who certainly do not fit into this category, but their
>>>>>>>>> voices are usually drowned out.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF. I regret that we
>>>>>>> donated
>>>>>>>> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been
>>>>>>>> complained
>>>>>>>> about so many times by our community members who have followed us
>>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>> started this thing. However, we're stuck here now, and the people
>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>> feel
>>>>>>>> like working with the ASF are doing so. You're never going to
>>>>>>>> convince
>>>>>>>> everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially
>>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>> organization has been passively aggressively attacking various parts
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> JS community for years. Honestly, I think it's a miracle that we
>>>>>>>> haven't
>>>>>>>> forked yet.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>>> From: Carlos Santana<ma...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: 4/9/2015 9:00 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Joe,
>>>>>>>>> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want, while
>>>>>>>>> at the same time without being punched in the face :-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Marcel,
>>>>>>>>> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you talk
>>>>>>>>> to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova
>>>>>>>>> developers to see if what is the possibility to use github with the
>>>>>>>>> understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving in place
>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>> I layout in my email?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana
>>>>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
>>>>>>>>>>> We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Use Github Issues
>>>>>>>>>>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
>>>>>>>>>>> Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create
>>>>>>>>>>> corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing
>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>> with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at Apache
>>>>>>>>>> hate
>>>>>>>>> GitHub
>>>>>>>>>> with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough problems
>>>>>>>>>> just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would love to
>>>>>>>>>> dump JIRA
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache
>>>>>>>>>> infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less
>>>>>>>>>> accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an Apache neckbeard.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache
>>>>>>>>>>> Foundation,
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> another open source Foundation? That should not affect the
>>>>>>>>>>> community
>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>> should still continue to interface in Github.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us leaving
>>>>>>>>>> the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed to
>>>>>>>>>> use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi existed. One
>>>>>>>>>> thing
>>>>>>>>>> that I think we
>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>> communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and
>>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>> stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF cared
>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>>>> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
>>>>>>>>>>> <st...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> As a survey it's always biased.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The problem
>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>> clearly
>>>>>>>>>>>> not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this.
>>>>>>>>>>>> They
>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
>>>>>>>>>>>> Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile web
>>>>>>>>>>>> nor anything relative to the mobile.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>> native :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> Stéphane Bachelier,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
>>>>>>>>>>>> B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
>>>>>>>>>>>> jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>>>>>>>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am a developper and I use Cordova.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the
>>>>>>>>> details
>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>>> how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>> done
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and appreciate it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't think
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> only one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> good as
>>>>>>>>>>> native
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> apps I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> work on!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <Tyler@drumpants.com
>>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think what colors people's perception the most is the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> graphics
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>>>>>>> reasons:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>>>> ago.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> though it's improved so much since then, those first apps
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>>>>> hang
>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people's minds.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WebKit views,
>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hard and takes a lot of work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * For instance, I came across an article once that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recommended
>>>>>>>>>> using
>>>>>>>>>>>> CSS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>> whole
>>>>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> it. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> making
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> top-notch apps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>> iOS-style
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> design straight to Android without considering that Android
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users
>>>>>>>>>>>> expect
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> score
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>> low
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> default
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Git
>>>>>>>>>>> Bash,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> development, and
>>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> full
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this and
>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> survey
>>>>>>>>>>>> results
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> improve.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
>>>>>>>>>> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely right :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the
>>>>>>>>>> developers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> using
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing
>>>>>>>>> nothing
>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the
>>>>>>>>>> JS->Native->JS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bridge.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
>>>>>>>>>> communitcation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything
>>>>>>>>>> special
>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs
>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Toplak
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
>>>>>>>>>> happy?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
>>>>>>>>>> applications
>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova
>>>>>>>>> application
>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another company, you're probably going to end up
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-writing it
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> natively
>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you're more comfortable with.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> soon, and
>>>>>>>>>>> both
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technologies share the same property that anyone can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a
>>>>>>>>>>> shitty
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> reason,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because I
>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Drupal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care what developers say in a survey, since most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> releasing
>>>>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <le...@intel.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (
>>>>>>> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
>>>>>>>> ).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most Dreaded technologies:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Salesforce 73.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual Basic 72.0%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress 68.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matlab 65.6%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sharepoint 62.8%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LAMP 62.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perl 59.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova 58.8%
>>>>>>>> **************
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffeescript 54.7%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other 57.3%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> % of devs who are developing with the language or tech
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expressed interest in continuing to do so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>>>>>>> answers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>>>>> looking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback from those who have heard developers express
>>>>>>>>>>> frustration
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * There is no problem - unclear question led to
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> answer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * The problem is really about creating native
>>>>>>> apps
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JavaScript +
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HTML5
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Cordova CLI has a quality problem
>>>>>>> (learnability |
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> usability |
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliability)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too hard to set up development environment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o The command CLI is too complicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Not enough learning material (documentation,
>>>>>>> articles,
>>>>>>>>>>> books)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too many bugs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Changes too frequently
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leo
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Freeman
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from mobile
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordialement,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Voltaire José-luc
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Directeur Technique
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Netdevices
>>>>>>>>>>>>> e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
>>>>>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
>>>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>>>
>>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
RE: Github, again.
Posted by "Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)" <Ro...@microsoft.com>.
Those conversations have been had. GitHub won't open the logs (and we can't expect them to given the privacy implications). Feel free to discuss again if you like - things may have changed.
GitHub enterprise is not free. My comment about cost was from memory, I've asked David to remind me of the details.
Ross
-----Original Message-----
From: brian.leroux@gmail.com [mailto:brian.leroux@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Brian LeRoux
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2015 12:17 PM
To: dev@cordova.apache.org
Subject: Re: Github, again.
being donated my guess the cost was installation and maintenance? anyhow, now that the goal posts have been moved to logs I'm fairly certain they'd open those to us as well (I'll find out)
On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 9:02 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) < Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> Yes we have discussed this. The cost is prohibitive. David Nalley as
> VP Infra has the details.
>
> Sent from my Windows Phone
> ________________________________
> From: Brian LeRoux<ma...@brian.io>
> Sent: 4/10/2015 8:53 AM
> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Github, again.
>
> And actually, a colleague recalled we talked about on prem w github
> entp too. Which totally addresses the issue. It was shot down of
> course despite github offering to donate to apache.
>
> Now maybe this is possible?
>
> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 8:16 AM Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>
> > I said as much Jim. As to FUD...
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 6:18 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to the
> >> ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up several
> >> times, and answered several times (as I was almost sure it was done
> >> here)... In any case, the following is a typical response to why
> >> Github cannot be canon:
> >>
> >>
> >> http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-Founda
> >> tion-tp5722483p5722847.html
> >>
> >> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand this
> >> issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
> >>
> >> > On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the
> >> > IP
> >> (code).
> >> > Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google
> Code)
> >> or
> >> > worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
> >> >
> >> > I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting
> >> > that
> >> most
> >> > brands appear to feel this risk is low.
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015, 5:22 PM Gorkem Ercan
> >> > <go...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On 9 Apr 2015, at 15:38, Andrew Grieve wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right
> >> >>> now, but I will promise to post back with some formulated
> >> >>> thoughts a bit later (some of this I'm prepping for my
> >> >>> ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it anyways).
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not
> >> >>> constructive.
> >> >>> If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not
> >> >>> for
> the
> >> >>> sake
> >> >>> of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things
> >> >>> about others almost always ends up making you look worse than
> >> >>> those you are being negative towards.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Another angle:
> >> >>> Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though
> >> >>> your views are your own (although statements like "Or we could
> >> >>> just leave the ASF"
> >> >>> make it
> >> >>> sound like you are representing more than that), your tone
> >> >>> often
> just
> >> >>> makes
> >> >>> people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to
> >> >>> contribute to a project that is full of smileys and
> >> >>> encouragement, or one where people are negative and abrasive?
> >> >>> It really goes a long way to keep the
> email
> >> >>> tone
> >> >>> positive even when you disagree.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova
> Apache'ers
> >> >>> (we
> >> >>> are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful:
> >> >>> - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us
> >> >>> set one up.
> >> >>> - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their
> >> >>> shared instance.
> >> >>> - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a
> >> >>> collaboration between Infra and other projects that made it
> >> >>> happen (we complained, but didn't do the work to make it
> >> >>> possible).
> >> >>> - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time
> (although
> >> >>> we
> >> >>> decided not to stick with it).
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Why can we not use Github issues?
> >> >>> - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github.
> >> >>> - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a
> >> >>> conversation
> that
> >> >>> hasn't happened yet.
> >> >>> - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but
> >> >>> do issue trackers count as "data"?
> >> >>
> >> >> This may actually be intellectual property related. Eclipse
> foundation
> >> >> which allows GitHub to be used as primary SCM, does not allow
> >> >> GitHub as issue tracker because it can not be covered by the
> >> >> Eclipse.org
> terms
> >> >> of use.
> >> >>
> >> >>> - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have.
> >> >>> - dev@community.apache.org would be a great place to start,
> >> >>> since that's meant for cross-project discussion.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> >> >>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>> Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you
> >> >>>>> disagree, it is offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I
> >> >>>>> am referring to (and why *I* dread ever posting to this list,
> >> >>>>> shame that question wasn't in the Stack Overflow survey).
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>> Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based on
> >> >>>> the tone you're using, I can't be sure. If you're looking to
> >> >>>> make a
> personal
> >> >>>> attack
> >> >>>> on me publicly, then fine, go ahead. On this list, these
> >> >>>> comments only reflect my own personal views. It's clear that
> >> >>>> people don't agree with me, because we're still here.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Joe
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Ross
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >> >>>>> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
> >> >>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >> >>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> >> >>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no
> additional
> >> >>>>>> influence. What matters around here is constructive
> >> >>>>>> contributions and participation.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times.
> >> >>>>> There are
> >> >>>> clearly
> >> >>>>> people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've
> >> >>>>> had to fight the ASF every single time we wanted to do
> >> >>>>> anything with this project, and I'm expecting us to fight the
> >> >>>>> ASF again until we eventually leave.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>> To be constructive one needs to understand why things are
> >> >>>>>> the way they are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work
> >> >>>>>> with people to propose changes that work.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different
> >> >>>>> foundation
> whose
> >> >>>> rules
> >> >>>>> aren't as rigid. That could work too.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just
> that.
> >> >>>>>> Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there
> >> >>>>>> are some individuals who certainly do not fit into this
> >> >>>>>> category, but
> their
> >> >>>>>> voices are usually drowned out.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF. I regret
> >> >>>>> that we
> >> >>>> donated
> >> >>>>> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been
> >> >>>>> complained about so many times by our community members who
> >> >>>>> have followed us since
> >> >>>> we
> >> >>>>> started this thing. However, we're stuck here now, and the
> >> >>>>> people who
> >> >>>> feel
> >> >>>>> like working with the ASF are doing so. You're never going
> >> >>>>> to convince everyone our community that the ASF is a good
> >> >>>>> thing, especially since
> >> >>>> your
> >> >>>>> organization has been passively aggressively attacking
> >> >>>>> various
> parts
> >> >>>>> of
> >> >>>> the
> >> >>>>> JS community for years. Honestly, I think it's a miracle
> >> >>>>> that we haven't forked yet.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Joe
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Ross
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
> >> >>>>>> ________________________________
> >> >>>>>> From: Carlos Santana<ma...@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>> Sent: 4/9/2015 9:00 AM
> >> >>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
> >> >>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Joe,
> >> >>>>>> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want,
> while
> >> >>>>>> at the same time without being punched in the face :-)
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Marcel,
> >> >>>>>> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can
> >> >>>>>> you
> talk
> >> >>>>>> to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million
> >> >>>>>> cordova developers to see if what is the possibility to use
> >> >>>>>> github with
> the
> >> >>>>>> understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving
> >> >>>>>> in
> place
> >> >>>> like
> >> >>>>> I layout in my email?
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser
> >> >>>>>> <bo...@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana
> >> >>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
> >> >>>>>>>> We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> 1. Use Github Issues
> >> >>>>>>>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred
> >> >>>>>>>> way Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks
> >> >>>>>>>> to create corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we
> >> >>>>>>>> already doing this with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at
> >> >>>>>>> Apache hate
> >> >>>>>> GitHub
> >> >>>>>>> with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough
> problems
> >> >>>>>>> just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would
> >> >>>>>>> love
> to
> >> >>>>>>> dump JIRA
> >> >>>>>> and
> >> >>>>>>> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the
> >> >>>>>>> Apache infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made
> >> >>>>>>> it less accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an
> >> >>>>>>> Apache
> neckbeard.
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache
> >> >>>>>>>> Foundation,
> >> >>>>>> to
> >> >>>>>>>> another open source Foundation? That should not affect the
> >> >>>>>>>> community
> >> >>>>>> they
> >> >>>>>>>> should still continue to interface in Github.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us
> leaving
> >> >>>>>>> the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd be
> >> >>>>>>> allowed
> to
> >> >>>>>>> use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi existed.
> >> >>>>>>> One thing that I think we
> >> >>>>>> don't
> >> >>>>>>> communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF
> >> >>>>>>> policies and how
> >> >>>>>> these
> >> >>>>>>> stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF
> >> >>>>>>> cared about
> >> >>>>>> such
> >> >>>>>>> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
> >> >>>>>>>> <st...@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> As a survey it's always biased.
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The
> problem
> >> >>>>>>>>> is
> >> >>>>>>>> clearly
> >> >>>>>>>>> not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this.
> >> >>>>>>>>> They
> >> >>>>>>> think
> >> >>>>>>>>> Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
> >> >>>>>>>>> Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the
> >> >>>>>>>>> mobile
> web
> >> >>>>>>>>> nor anything relative to the mobile.
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and
> >> >>>>>>>>> most of
> >> >>>>>> them
> >> >>>>>>>> are
> >> >>>>>>>>> native :)
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>>>>> Stéphane Bachelier,
> >> >>>>>>>>> Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
> >> >>>>>>>>> B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
> >> >>>>>>>>> jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >> >>>>>>>>>> :
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> I am a developper and I use Cordova.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all
> >> >>>>>>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>> details
> >> >>>>>>>>> about
> >> >>>>>>>>>> how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea
> >> >>>>>>>>>> of
> the
> >> >>>>>>>>>> work
> >> >>>>>>>> done
> >> >>>>>>>>>> and appreciate it.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't
> think
> >> >>>>>>>>>> I am
> >> >>>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>>>>>> only one.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be
> >> >>>>>>>>>> as good as
> >> >>>>>>>> native
> >> >>>>>>>>>> ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try
> >> >>>>>>>>>> to do for
> >> >>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>>>>> apps I
> >> >>>>>>>>>> work on!
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <
> Tyler@drumpants.com
> >> >>>>> :
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> I think what colors people's perception the most is the
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> graphics
> >> >>>>>>> and
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> possible
> >> >>>>>>>> reasons:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> 3 years
> >> >>>>>>> ago.
> >> >>>>>>>>> Even
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> though it's improved so much since then, those first
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> apps still
> >> >>>>>>> hang
> >> >>>>>>>> in
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> people's minds.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> * Developers are not trying hard enough for that
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> smooth, buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> on modern WebKit views,
> >> >>>>>> but
> >> >>>>>>>>> it's
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> hard and takes a lot of work.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> * For instance, I came across an article once that
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> recommended
> >> >>>>>>> using
> >> >>>>>>>>> CSS
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> transforms instead of properties like "left". That
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> changed my
> >> >>>>>> whole
> >> >>>>>>>> way
> >> >>>>>>>>>> of
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> because of
> >> >>>>>>> it. I
> >> >>>>>>>>>> think
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> like that
> >> >>>>>> for
> >> >>>>>>>>>> making
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> top-notch apps.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> their
> >> >>>>>>>> iOS-style
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> design straight to Android without considering that
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Android users
> >> >>>>>>>>> expect
> >> >>>>>>>>>> a
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> do about
> >> >>>>>>>> this.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Tyler
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
> >> >>>>>>>>>> michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> This is a really interesting survey. My take is that
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> the score
> >> >>>>>> is
> >> >>>>>>>> low
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> because over 50% of the participants are Windows users
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> and the
> >> >>>>>>>> default
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova experience on Windows is extremely
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> unconventional - Git
> >> >>>>>>>> Bash,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> development, and
> >> >>>>>>> no
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> full
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> improving this and
> >> >>>>>>> as
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Visual
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> those survey
> >> >>>>>>>>> results
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> improve.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
> >> >>>>>>> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely right :-)
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>>> developers
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> using
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> knowing
> >> >>>>>> nothing
> >> >>>>>>>>> about
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the
> >> >>>>>>> JS->Native->JS
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> bridge.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
> >> >>>>>>> communitcation
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> with
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> plugins.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> anything
> >> >>>>>>> special
> >> >>>>>>>> is
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The other thing is that there are some JS
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> frameworks/libs
> >> >>>>>> which
> >> >>>>>>>> are
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> not
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of that
> >> >>>>>> :-)
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> My point of view is, that they don't see the real
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> power of the
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> cordova
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Toplak
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >> >>>>>>> happy?
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> because
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> everyone can
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
> >> >>>>>>> applications
> >> >>>>>>>>> is
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova
> >> >>>>>> application
> >> >>>>>>>>> from
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> another company, you're probably going to end up
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> re-writing it
> >> >>>>>>> and
> >> >>>>>>>>> if
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> natively
> >> >>>>>>> because
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> that's
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> what you're more comfortable with.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> soon, and
> >> >>>>>>>> both
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> those
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> technologies share the same property that anyone can
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> create a
> >> >>>>>>>> shitty
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> website. We've been called the Drupal of development
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> for a
> >> >>>>>>>> reason,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> and at
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> because I
> >> >>>>>>>> think
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Drupal
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
> >> >>>>>>> think
> >> >>>>>>>> we
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> should
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> care what developers say in a survey, since most
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >> >>>>>> are
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> terrible
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> releasing
> >> >>>>>>> isn't
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> terrible.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> <le...@intel.com>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Survey (
> >> >>>> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
> >> >>>>> ).
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most Dreaded technologies:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Salesforce 73.2%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual Basic 72.0%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress 68.2%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matlab 65.6%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sharepoint 62.8%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> LAMP 62.2%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perl 59.2%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova 58.8%
> >> >>>>> **************
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffeescript 54.7%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other 57.3%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> % of devs who are developing with the language or
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> tech but
> >> >>>>>>> have
> >> >>>>>>>>> not
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> expressed interest in continuing to do so.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
> >> >>>>>>>> answers.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather
> >> >>>>>>>> looking
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> for
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback from those who have heard developers
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> express
> >> >>>>>>>> frustration
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> with
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * There is no problem - unclear question led to
> >> >>>> the
> >> >>>>>>>> answer
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * The problem is really about creating native
> >> >>>> apps
> >> >>>>> in
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> JavaScript +
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> HTML5
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Cordova CLI has a quality problem
> >> >>>> (learnability |
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> usability |
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliability)
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too hard to set up development environment
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o The command CLI is too complicated
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Not enough learning material (documentation,
> >> >>>> articles,
> >> >>>>>>>> books)
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too many bugs
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Changes too frequently
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leo
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Freeman
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from mobile
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Cordialement,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Voltaire José-luc
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Directeur Technique
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Netdevices
> >> >>>>>>>>>> e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
> >> >>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>> Carlos Santana
> >> >>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>
> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> ----- To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >>
> >>
>
Re: Github, again.
Posted by Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io>.
being donated my guess the cost was installation and maintenance? anyhow,
now that the goal posts have been moved to logs I'm fairly certain they'd
open those to us as well (I'll find out)
On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 9:02 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> Yes we have discussed this. The cost is prohibitive. David Nalley as VP
> Infra has the details.
>
> Sent from my Windows Phone
> ________________________________
> From: Brian LeRoux<ma...@brian.io>
> Sent: 4/10/2015 8:53 AM
> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Github, again.
>
> And actually, a colleague recalled we talked about on prem w github entp
> too. Which totally addresses the issue. It was shot down of course despite
> github offering to donate to apache.
>
> Now maybe this is possible?
>
> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 8:16 AM Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>
> > I said as much Jim. As to FUD...
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 6:18 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
> >> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
> >> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
> >> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
> >> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
> >>
> >> http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-Founda
> >> tion-tp5722483p5722847.html
> >>
> >> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
> >> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
> >>
> >> > On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP
> >> (code).
> >> > Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google
> Code)
> >> or
> >> > worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
> >> >
> >> > I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that
> >> most
> >> > brands appear to feel this risk is low.
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015, 5:22 PM Gorkem Ercan <go...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On 9 Apr 2015, at 15:38, Andrew Grieve wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right now,
> >> >>> but I
> >> >>> will promise to post back with some formulated thoughts a bit later
> >> >>> (some
> >> >>> of this I'm prepping for my ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it
> >> >>> anyways).
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not
> >> >>> constructive.
> >> >>> If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not for
> the
> >> >>> sake
> >> >>> of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things about
> >> >>> others
> >> >>> almost always ends up making you look worse than those you are being
> >> >>> negative towards.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Another angle:
> >> >>> Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though your
> >> >>> views are
> >> >>> your own (although statements like "Or we could just leave the ASF"
> >> >>> make it
> >> >>> sound like you are representing more than that), your tone often
> just
> >> >>> makes
> >> >>> people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to
> >> >>> contribute to
> >> >>> a project that is full of smileys and encouragement, or one where
> >> >>> people
> >> >>> are negative and abrasive? It really goes a long way to keep the
> email
> >> >>> tone
> >> >>> positive even when you disagree.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova
> Apache'ers
> >> >>> (we
> >> >>> are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful:
> >> >>> - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us set one
> >> >>> up.
> >> >>> - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their shared
> >> >>> instance.
> >> >>> - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a
> >> >>> collaboration
> >> >>> between Infra and other projects that made it happen (we complained,
> >> >>> but
> >> >>> didn't do the work to make it possible).
> >> >>> - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time
> (although
> >> >>> we
> >> >>> decided not to stick with it).
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Why can we not use Github issues?
> >> >>> - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github.
> >> >>> - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a conversation
> that
> >> >>> hasn't happened yet.
> >> >>> - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but do
> >> >>> issue
> >> >>> trackers count as "data"?
> >> >>
> >> >> This may actually be intellectual property related. Eclipse
> foundation
> >> >> which allows GitHub to be used as primary SCM, does not allow GitHub
> >> >> as issue tracker because it can not be covered by the Eclipse.org
> terms
> >> >> of use.
> >> >>
> >> >>> - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have.
> >> >>> - dev@community.apache.org would be a great place to start, since
> >> >>> that's
> >> >>> meant for cross-project discussion.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> >> >>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>> Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree, it
> >> >>>>> is
> >> >>>>> offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring to (and
> >> >>>>> why *I*
> >> >>>>> dread ever posting to this list, shame that question wasn't in the
> >> >>>>> Stack
> >> >>>>> Overflow survey).
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>> Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based on the
> >> >>>> tone
> >> >>>> you're using, I can't be sure. If you're looking to make a
> personal
> >> >>>> attack
> >> >>>> on me publicly, then fine, go ahead. On this list, these comments
> >> >>>> only
> >> >>>> reflect my own personal views. It's clear that people don't agree
> >> >>>> with me,
> >> >>>> because we're still here.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Joe
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Ross
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >> >>>>> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
> >> >>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >> >>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> >> >>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no
> additional
> >> >>>>>> influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions
> >> >>>>>> and
> >> >>>>>> participation.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times. There are
> >> >>>> clearly
> >> >>>>> people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had to
> >> >>>>> fight
> >> >>>>> the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this
> >> >>>>> project, and
> >> >>>>> I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually leave.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>> To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the way
> >> >>>>>> they
> >> >>>>>> are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to
> >> >>>>>> propose
> >> >>>>>> changes that work.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation
> whose
> >> >>>> rules
> >> >>>>> aren't as rigid. That could work too.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just
> that.
> >> >>>>>> Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there are
> >> >>>>>> some
> >> >>>>>> individuals who certainly do not fit into this category, but
> their
> >> >>>>>> voices are usually drowned out.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF. I regret that we
> >> >>>> donated
> >> >>>>> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been
> >> >>>>> complained
> >> >>>>> about so many times by our community members who have followed us
> >> >>>>> since
> >> >>>> we
> >> >>>>> started this thing. However, we're stuck here now, and the people
> >> >>>>> who
> >> >>>> feel
> >> >>>>> like working with the ASF are doing so. You're never going to
> >> >>>>> convince
> >> >>>>> everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially
> >> >>>>> since
> >> >>>> your
> >> >>>>> organization has been passively aggressively attacking various
> parts
> >> >>>>> of
> >> >>>> the
> >> >>>>> JS community for years. Honestly, I think it's a miracle that we
> >> >>>>> haven't
> >> >>>>> forked yet.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Joe
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Ross
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
> >> >>>>>> ________________________________
> >> >>>>>> From: Carlos Santana<ma...@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>> Sent: 4/9/2015 9:00 AM
> >> >>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
> >> >>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Joe,
> >> >>>>>> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want,
> while
> >> >>>>>> at the same time without being punched in the face :-)
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Marcel,
> >> >>>>>> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you
> talk
> >> >>>>>> to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova
> >> >>>>>> developers to see if what is the possibility to use github with
> the
> >> >>>>>> understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving in
> place
> >> >>>> like
> >> >>>>> I layout in my email?
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana
> >> >>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
> >> >>>>>>>> We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> 1. Use Github Issues
> >> >>>>>>>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
> >> >>>>>>>> Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create
> >> >>>>>>>> corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing
> >> >>>>>>>> this
> >> >>>>>>>> with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at Apache
> >> >>>>>>> hate
> >> >>>>>> GitHub
> >> >>>>>>> with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough
> problems
> >> >>>>>>> just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would love
> to
> >> >>>>>>> dump JIRA
> >> >>>>>> and
> >> >>>>>>> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache
> >> >>>>>>> infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less
> >> >>>>>>> accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an Apache
> neckbeard.
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache
> >> >>>>>>>> Foundation,
> >> >>>>>> to
> >> >>>>>>>> another open source Foundation? That should not affect the
> >> >>>>>>>> community
> >> >>>>>> they
> >> >>>>>>>> should still continue to interface in Github.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us
> leaving
> >> >>>>>>> the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed
> to
> >> >>>>>>> use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi existed. One
> >> >>>>>>> thing
> >> >>>>>>> that I think we
> >> >>>>>> don't
> >> >>>>>>> communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and
> >> >>>>>>> how
> >> >>>>>> these
> >> >>>>>>> stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF cared
> >> >>>>>>> about
> >> >>>>>> such
> >> >>>>>>> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
> >> >>>>>>>> <st...@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> As a survey it's always biased.
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The
> problem
> >> >>>>>>>>> is
> >> >>>>>>>> clearly
> >> >>>>>>>>> not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this.
> >> >>>>>>>>> They
> >> >>>>>>> think
> >> >>>>>>>>> Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
> >> >>>>>>>>> Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile
> web
> >> >>>>>>>>> nor anything relative to the mobile.
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most
> >> >>>>>>>>> of
> >> >>>>>> them
> >> >>>>>>>> are
> >> >>>>>>>>> native :)
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>>>>> Stéphane Bachelier,
> >> >>>>>>>>> Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
> >> >>>>>>>>> B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
> >> >>>>>>>>> jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >> >>>>>>>>>> :
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> I am a developper and I use Cordova.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the
> >> >>>>>> details
> >> >>>>>>>>> about
> >> >>>>>>>>>> how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of
> the
> >> >>>>>>>>>> work
> >> >>>>>>>> done
> >> >>>>>>>>>> and appreciate it.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't
> think
> >> >>>>>>>>>> I am
> >> >>>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>>>>>> only one.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as
> >> >>>>>>>>>> good as
> >> >>>>>>>> native
> >> >>>>>>>>>> ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do
> >> >>>>>>>>>> for
> >> >>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>>>>> apps I
> >> >>>>>>>>>> work on!
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <
> Tyler@drumpants.com
> >> >>>>> :
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> I think what colors people's perception the most is the
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> graphics
> >> >>>>>>> and
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> possible
> >> >>>>>>>> reasons:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> years
> >> >>>>>>> ago.
> >> >>>>>>>>> Even
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> though it's improved so much since then, those first apps
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> still
> >> >>>>>>> hang
> >> >>>>>>>> in
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> people's minds.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> WebKit views,
> >> >>>>>> but
> >> >>>>>>>>> it's
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> hard and takes a lot of work.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> * For instance, I came across an article once that
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> recommended
> >> >>>>>>> using
> >> >>>>>>>>> CSS
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> my
> >> >>>>>> whole
> >> >>>>>>>> way
> >> >>>>>>>>>> of
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> of
> >> >>>>>>> it. I
> >> >>>>>>>>>> think
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> that
> >> >>>>>> for
> >> >>>>>>>>>> making
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> top-notch apps.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> their
> >> >>>>>>>> iOS-style
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> design straight to Android without considering that Android
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> users
> >> >>>>>>>>> expect
> >> >>>>>>>>>> a
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> about
> >> >>>>>>>> this.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Tyler
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
> >> >>>>>>>>>> michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> score
> >> >>>>>> is
> >> >>>>>>>> low
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>>>> default
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional -
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Git
> >> >>>>>>>> Bash,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> development, and
> >> >>>>>>> no
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> full
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> this and
> >> >>>>>>> as
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Visual
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> survey
> >> >>>>>>>>> results
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> improve.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
> >> >>>>>>> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely right :-)
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the
> >> >>>>>>> developers
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> using
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing
> >> >>>>>> nothing
> >> >>>>>>>>> about
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the
> >> >>>>>>> JS->Native->JS
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> bridge.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
> >> >>>>>>> communitcation
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> with
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> plugins.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything
> >> >>>>>>> special
> >> >>>>>>>> is
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs
> >> >>>>>> which
> >> >>>>>>>> are
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> not
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that
> >> >>>>>> :-)
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> cordova
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Toplak
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >> >>>>>>> happy?
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> because
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> everyone can
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
> >> >>>>>>> applications
> >> >>>>>>>>> is
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova
> >> >>>>>> application
> >> >>>>>>>>> from
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> another company, you're probably going to end up
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> re-writing it
> >> >>>>>>> and
> >> >>>>>>>>> if
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> natively
> >> >>>>>>> because
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> that's
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> what you're more comfortable with.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> soon, and
> >> >>>>>>>> both
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> those
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> technologies share the same property that anyone can
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> create a
> >> >>>>>>>> shitty
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> a
> >> >>>>>>>> reason,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> and at
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> because I
> >> >>>>>>>> think
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Drupal
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
> >> >>>>>>> think
> >> >>>>>>>> we
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> should
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> care what developers say in a survey, since most
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >> >>>>>> are
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> terrible
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> releasing
> >> >>>>>>> isn't
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> terrible.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> <le...@intel.com>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (
> >> >>>> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
> >> >>>>> ).
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most Dreaded technologies:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Salesforce 73.2%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual Basic 72.0%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress 68.2%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matlab 65.6%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sharepoint 62.8%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> LAMP 62.2%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perl 59.2%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova 58.8%
> >> >>>>> **************
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffeescript 54.7%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other 57.3%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> % of devs who are developing with the language or tech
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
> >> >>>>>>> have
> >> >>>>>>>>> not
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> expressed interest in continuing to do so.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
> >> >>>>>>>> answers.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather
> >> >>>>>>>> looking
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> for
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback from those who have heard developers express
> >> >>>>>>>> frustration
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> with
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * There is no problem - unclear question led to
> >> >>>> the
> >> >>>>>>>> answer
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * The problem is really about creating native
> >> >>>> apps
> >> >>>>> in
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> JavaScript +
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> HTML5
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Cordova CLI has a quality problem
> >> >>>> (learnability |
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> usability |
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliability)
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too hard to set up development environment
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o The command CLI is too complicated
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Not enough learning material (documentation,
> >> >>>> articles,
> >> >>>>>>>> books)
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too many bugs
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Changes too frequently
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leo
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Freeman
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from mobile
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Cordialement,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Voltaire José-luc
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Directeur Technique
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Netdevices
> >> >>>>>>>>>> e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
> >> >>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>> Carlos Santana
> >> >>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>
> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >>
> >>
>
RE: Github, again.
Posted by "Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)" <Ro...@microsoft.com>.
Yes we have discussed this. The cost is prohibitive. David Nalley as VP Infra has the details.
Sent from my Windows Phone
________________________________
From: Brian LeRoux<ma...@brian.io>
Sent: 4/10/2015 8:53 AM
To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Github, again.
And actually, a colleague recalled we talked about on prem w github entp
too. Which totally addresses the issue. It was shot down of course despite
github offering to donate to apache.
Now maybe this is possible?
On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 8:16 AM Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> I said as much Jim. As to FUD...
>
> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 6:18 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>
>> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
>> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
>> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
>> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
>> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
>>
>> http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-Founda
>> tion-tp5722483p5722847.html
>>
>> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
>> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
>>
>> > On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>> >
>> > It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP
>> (code).
>> > Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google Code)
>> or
>> > worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
>> >
>> > I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that
>> most
>> > brands appear to feel this risk is low.
>> >
>> > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015, 5:22 PM Gorkem Ercan <go...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 9 Apr 2015, at 15:38, Andrew Grieve wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right now,
>> >>> but I
>> >>> will promise to post back with some formulated thoughts a bit later
>> >>> (some
>> >>> of this I'm prepping for my ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it
>> >>> anyways).
>> >>>
>> >>> Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not
>> >>> constructive.
>> >>> If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not for the
>> >>> sake
>> >>> of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things about
>> >>> others
>> >>> almost always ends up making you look worse than those you are being
>> >>> negative towards.
>> >>>
>> >>> Another angle:
>> >>> Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though your
>> >>> views are
>> >>> your own (although statements like "Or we could just leave the ASF"
>> >>> make it
>> >>> sound like you are representing more than that), your tone often just
>> >>> makes
>> >>> people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to
>> >>> contribute to
>> >>> a project that is full of smileys and encouragement, or one where
>> >>> people
>> >>> are negative and abrasive? It really goes a long way to keep the email
>> >>> tone
>> >>> positive even when you disagree.
>> >>>
>> >>> Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova Apache'ers
>> >>> (we
>> >>> are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful:
>> >>> - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us set one
>> >>> up.
>> >>> - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their shared
>> >>> instance.
>> >>> - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a
>> >>> collaboration
>> >>> between Infra and other projects that made it happen (we complained,
>> >>> but
>> >>> didn't do the work to make it possible).
>> >>> - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time (although
>> >>> we
>> >>> decided not to stick with it).
>> >>>
>> >>> Why can we not use Github issues?
>> >>> - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github.
>> >>> - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a conversation that
>> >>> hasn't happened yet.
>> >>> - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but do
>> >>> issue
>> >>> trackers count as "data"?
>> >>
>> >> This may actually be intellectual property related. Eclipse foundation
>> >> which allows GitHub to be used as primary SCM, does not allow GitHub
>> >> as issue tracker because it can not be covered by the Eclipse.org terms
>> >> of use.
>> >>
>> >>> - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have.
>> >>> - dev@community.apache.org would be a great place to start, since
>> >>> that's
>> >>> meant for cross-project discussion.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>> >>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree, it
>> >>>>> is
>> >>>>> offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring to (and
>> >>>>> why *I*
>> >>>>> dread ever posting to this list, shame that question wasn't in the
>> >>>>> Stack
>> >>>>> Overflow survey).
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>> Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based on the
>> >>>> tone
>> >>>> you're using, I can't be sure. If you're looking to make a personal
>> >>>> attack
>> >>>> on me publicly, then fine, go ahead. On this list, these comments
>> >>>> only
>> >>>> reflect my own personal views. It's clear that people don't agree
>> >>>> with me,
>> >>>> because we're still here.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Joe
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Ross
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>>> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
>> >>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
>> >>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>> >>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no additional
>> >>>>>> influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions
>> >>>>>> and
>> >>>>>> participation.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times. There are
>> >>>> clearly
>> >>>>> people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had to
>> >>>>> fight
>> >>>>> the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this
>> >>>>> project, and
>> >>>>> I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually leave.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the way
>> >>>>>> they
>> >>>>>> are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to
>> >>>>>> propose
>> >>>>>> changes that work.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation whose
>> >>>> rules
>> >>>>> aren't as rigid. That could work too.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just that.
>> >>>>>> Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there are
>> >>>>>> some
>> >>>>>> individuals who certainly do not fit into this category, but their
>> >>>>>> voices are usually drowned out.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF. I regret that we
>> >>>> donated
>> >>>>> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been
>> >>>>> complained
>> >>>>> about so many times by our community members who have followed us
>> >>>>> since
>> >>>> we
>> >>>>> started this thing. However, we're stuck here now, and the people
>> >>>>> who
>> >>>> feel
>> >>>>> like working with the ASF are doing so. You're never going to
>> >>>>> convince
>> >>>>> everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially
>> >>>>> since
>> >>>> your
>> >>>>> organization has been passively aggressively attacking various parts
>> >>>>> of
>> >>>> the
>> >>>>> JS community for years. Honestly, I think it's a miracle that we
>> >>>>> haven't
>> >>>>> forked yet.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Joe
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Ross
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>> >>>>>> ________________________________
>> >>>>>> From: Carlos Santana<ma...@gmail.com>
>> >>>>>> Sent: 4/9/2015 9:00 AM
>> >>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Joe,
>> >>>>>> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want, while
>> >>>>>> at the same time without being punched in the face :-)
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Marcel,
>> >>>>>> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you talk
>> >>>>>> to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova
>> >>>>>> developers to see if what is the possibility to use github with the
>> >>>>>> understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving in place
>> >>>> like
>> >>>>> I layout in my email?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>
>> >>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana
>> >>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>> >>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
>> >>>>>>>> We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> 1. Use Github Issues
>> >>>>>>>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
>> >>>>>>>> Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create
>> >>>>>>>> corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing
>> >>>>>>>> this
>> >>>>>>>> with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at Apache
>> >>>>>>> hate
>> >>>>>> GitHub
>> >>>>>>> with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough problems
>> >>>>>>> just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would love to
>> >>>>>>> dump JIRA
>> >>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache
>> >>>>>>> infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less
>> >>>>>>> accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an Apache neckbeard.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache
>> >>>>>>>> Foundation,
>> >>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>>> another open source Foundation? That should not affect the
>> >>>>>>>> community
>> >>>>>> they
>> >>>>>>>> should still continue to interface in Github.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us leaving
>> >>>>>>> the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed to
>> >>>>>>> use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi existed. One
>> >>>>>>> thing
>> >>>>>>> that I think we
>> >>>>>> don't
>> >>>>>>> communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and
>> >>>>>>> how
>> >>>>>> these
>> >>>>>>> stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF cared
>> >>>>>>> about
>> >>>>>> such
>> >>>>>>> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
>> >>>>>>>> <st...@gmail.com>
>> >>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> As a survey it's always biased.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The problem
>> >>>>>>>>> is
>> >>>>>>>> clearly
>> >>>>>>>>> not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this.
>> >>>>>>>>> They
>> >>>>>>> think
>> >>>>>>>>> Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
>> >>>>>>>>> Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile web
>> >>>>>>>>> nor anything relative to the mobile.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most
>> >>>>>>>>> of
>> >>>>>> them
>> >>>>>>>> are
>> >>>>>>>>> native :)
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>>>> Stéphane Bachelier,
>> >>>>>>>>> Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
>> >>>>>>>>> B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
>> >>>>>>>>> jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>> >>>>>>>>>> :
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> I am a developper and I use Cordova.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the
>> >>>>>> details
>> >>>>>>>>> about
>> >>>>>>>>>> how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of the
>> >>>>>>>>>> work
>> >>>>>>>> done
>> >>>>>>>>>> and appreciate it.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't think
>> >>>>>>>>>> I am
>> >>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>>>> only one.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as
>> >>>>>>>>>> good as
>> >>>>>>>> native
>> >>>>>>>>>> ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do
>> >>>>>>>>>> for
>> >>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>>> apps I
>> >>>>>>>>>> work on!
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <Tyler@drumpants.com
>> >>>>> :
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> I think what colors people's perception the most is the
>> >>>>>>>>>>> graphics
>> >>>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>>>>>> interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few
>> >>>>>>>>>>> possible
>> >>>>>>>> reasons:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3
>> >>>>>>>>>>> years
>> >>>>>>> ago.
>> >>>>>>>>> Even
>> >>>>>>>>>>> though it's improved so much since then, those first apps
>> >>>>>>>>>>> still
>> >>>>>>> hang
>> >>>>>>>> in
>> >>>>>>>>>>> people's minds.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth,
>> >>>>>>>>>>> buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern
>> >>>>>>>>>>> WebKit views,
>> >>>>>> but
>> >>>>>>>>> it's
>> >>>>>>>>>>> hard and takes a lot of work.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> * For instance, I came across an article once that
>> >>>>>>>>>>> recommended
>> >>>>>>> using
>> >>>>>>>>> CSS
>> >>>>>>>>>>> transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed
>> >>>>>>>>>>> my
>> >>>>>> whole
>> >>>>>>>> way
>> >>>>>>>>>> of
>> >>>>>>>>>>> thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because
>> >>>>>>>>>>> of
>> >>>>>>> it. I
>> >>>>>>>>>> think
>> >>>>>>>>>>> it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like
>> >>>>>>>>>>> that
>> >>>>>> for
>> >>>>>>>>>> making
>> >>>>>>>>>>> top-notch apps.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port
>> >>>>>>>>>>> their
>> >>>>>>>> iOS-style
>> >>>>>>>>>>> design straight to Android without considering that Android
>> >>>>>>>>>>> users
>> >>>>>>>>> expect
>> >>>>>>>>>> a
>> >>>>>>>>>>> completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do
>> >>>>>>>>>>> about
>> >>>>>>>> this.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Tyler
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
>> >>>>>>>>>> michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> score
>> >>>>>> is
>> >>>>>>>> low
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>> default
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional -
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Git
>> >>>>>>>> Bash,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> development, and
>> >>>>>>> no
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> full
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> this and
>> >>>>>>> as
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Visual
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> survey
>> >>>>>>>>> results
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> improve.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
>> >>>>>>> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely right :-)
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the
>> >>>>>>> developers
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> using
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing
>> >>>>>> nothing
>> >>>>>>>>> about
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the
>> >>>>>>> JS->Native->JS
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> bridge.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
>> >>>>>>> communitcation
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> with
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> plugins.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything
>> >>>>>>> special
>> >>>>>>>> is
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs
>> >>>>>> which
>> >>>>>>>> are
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> not
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>> >>>>>> :-)
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> cordova
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Toplak
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
>> >>>>>>> happy?
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> because
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> everyone can
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
>> >>>>>>> applications
>> >>>>>>>>> is
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova
>> >>>>>> application
>> >>>>>>>>> from
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> another company, you're probably going to end up
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> re-writing it
>> >>>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>>>> if
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> natively
>> >>>>>>> because
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> that's
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> what you're more comfortable with.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> soon, and
>> >>>>>>>> both
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> those
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> technologies share the same property that anyone can
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> create a
>> >>>>>>>> shitty
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>> >>>>>>>> reason,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> and at
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> because I
>> >>>>>>>> think
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Drupal
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>> >>>>>>> think
>> >>>>>>>> we
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> should
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> care what developers say in a survey, since most
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
>> >>>>>> are
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> terrible
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> releasing
>> >>>>>>> isn't
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> terrible.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> <le...@intel.com>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (
>> >>>> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
>> >>>>> ).
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most Dreaded technologies:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Salesforce 73.2%
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual Basic 72.0%
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress 68.2%
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matlab 65.6%
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sharepoint 62.8%
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> LAMP 62.2%
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perl 59.2%
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova 58.8%
>> >>>>> **************
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffeescript 54.7%
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other 57.3%
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> % of devs who are developing with the language or tech
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>> >>>>>>> have
>> >>>>>>>>> not
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> expressed interest in continuing to do so.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
>> >>>>>>>> answers.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather
>> >>>>>>>> looking
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> for
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback from those who have heard developers express
>> >>>>>>>> frustration
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> with
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * There is no problem - unclear question led to
>> >>>> the
>> >>>>>>>> answer
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * The problem is really about creating native
>> >>>> apps
>> >>>>> in
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> JavaScript +
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> HTML5
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Cordova CLI has a quality problem
>> >>>> (learnability |
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> usability |
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliability)
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too hard to set up development environment
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o The command CLI is too complicated
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Not enough learning material (documentation,
>> >>>> articles,
>> >>>>>>>> books)
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too many bugs
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Changes too frequently
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leo
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Freeman
>> >>>>>>>>>>> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from mobile
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>>>>> Cordialement,
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Voltaire José-luc
>> >>>>>>>>>> Directeur Technique
>> >>>>>>>>>> Netdevices
>> >>>>>>>>>> e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
>> >>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> --
>> >>>>>> Carlos Santana
>> >>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>>
>>
Re: Github, again.
Posted by Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io>.
And actually, a colleague recalled we talked about on prem w github entp
too. Which totally addresses the issue. It was shot down of course despite
github offering to donate to apache.
Now maybe this is possible?
On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 8:16 AM Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> I said as much Jim. As to FUD...
>
> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 6:18 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>
>> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
>> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
>> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
>> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
>> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
>>
>> http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-Founda
>> tion-tp5722483p5722847.html
>>
>> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
>> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
>>
>> > On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>> >
>> > It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP
>> (code).
>> > Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google Code)
>> or
>> > worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
>> >
>> > I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that
>> most
>> > brands appear to feel this risk is low.
>> >
>> > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015, 5:22 PM Gorkem Ercan <go...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 9 Apr 2015, at 15:38, Andrew Grieve wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right now,
>> >>> but I
>> >>> will promise to post back with some formulated thoughts a bit later
>> >>> (some
>> >>> of this I'm prepping for my ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it
>> >>> anyways).
>> >>>
>> >>> Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not
>> >>> constructive.
>> >>> If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not for the
>> >>> sake
>> >>> of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things about
>> >>> others
>> >>> almost always ends up making you look worse than those you are being
>> >>> negative towards.
>> >>>
>> >>> Another angle:
>> >>> Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though your
>> >>> views are
>> >>> your own (although statements like "Or we could just leave the ASF"
>> >>> make it
>> >>> sound like you are representing more than that), your tone often just
>> >>> makes
>> >>> people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to
>> >>> contribute to
>> >>> a project that is full of smileys and encouragement, or one where
>> >>> people
>> >>> are negative and abrasive? It really goes a long way to keep the email
>> >>> tone
>> >>> positive even when you disagree.
>> >>>
>> >>> Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova Apache'ers
>> >>> (we
>> >>> are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful:
>> >>> - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us set one
>> >>> up.
>> >>> - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their shared
>> >>> instance.
>> >>> - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a
>> >>> collaboration
>> >>> between Infra and other projects that made it happen (we complained,
>> >>> but
>> >>> didn't do the work to make it possible).
>> >>> - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time (although
>> >>> we
>> >>> decided not to stick with it).
>> >>>
>> >>> Why can we not use Github issues?
>> >>> - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github.
>> >>> - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a conversation that
>> >>> hasn't happened yet.
>> >>> - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but do
>> >>> issue
>> >>> trackers count as "data"?
>> >>
>> >> This may actually be intellectual property related. Eclipse foundation
>> >> which allows GitHub to be used as primary SCM, does not allow GitHub
>> >> as issue tracker because it can not be covered by the Eclipse.org terms
>> >> of use.
>> >>
>> >>> - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have.
>> >>> - dev@community.apache.org would be a great place to start, since
>> >>> that's
>> >>> meant for cross-project discussion.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>> >>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree, it
>> >>>>> is
>> >>>>> offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring to (and
>> >>>>> why *I*
>> >>>>> dread ever posting to this list, shame that question wasn't in the
>> >>>>> Stack
>> >>>>> Overflow survey).
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>> Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based on the
>> >>>> tone
>> >>>> you're using, I can't be sure. If you're looking to make a personal
>> >>>> attack
>> >>>> on me publicly, then fine, go ahead. On this list, these comments
>> >>>> only
>> >>>> reflect my own personal views. It's clear that people don't agree
>> >>>> with me,
>> >>>> because we're still here.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Joe
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Ross
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>>> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
>> >>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
>> >>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>> >>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no additional
>> >>>>>> influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions
>> >>>>>> and
>> >>>>>> participation.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times. There are
>> >>>> clearly
>> >>>>> people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had to
>> >>>>> fight
>> >>>>> the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this
>> >>>>> project, and
>> >>>>> I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually leave.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the way
>> >>>>>> they
>> >>>>>> are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to
>> >>>>>> propose
>> >>>>>> changes that work.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation whose
>> >>>> rules
>> >>>>> aren't as rigid. That could work too.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just that.
>> >>>>>> Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there are
>> >>>>>> some
>> >>>>>> individuals who certainly do not fit into this category, but their
>> >>>>>> voices are usually drowned out.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF. I regret that we
>> >>>> donated
>> >>>>> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been
>> >>>>> complained
>> >>>>> about so many times by our community members who have followed us
>> >>>>> since
>> >>>> we
>> >>>>> started this thing. However, we're stuck here now, and the people
>> >>>>> who
>> >>>> feel
>> >>>>> like working with the ASF are doing so. You're never going to
>> >>>>> convince
>> >>>>> everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially
>> >>>>> since
>> >>>> your
>> >>>>> organization has been passively aggressively attacking various parts
>> >>>>> of
>> >>>> the
>> >>>>> JS community for years. Honestly, I think it's a miracle that we
>> >>>>> haven't
>> >>>>> forked yet.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Joe
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Ross
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>> >>>>>> ________________________________
>> >>>>>> From: Carlos Santana<ma...@gmail.com>
>> >>>>>> Sent: 4/9/2015 9:00 AM
>> >>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Joe,
>> >>>>>> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want, while
>> >>>>>> at the same time without being punched in the face :-)
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Marcel,
>> >>>>>> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you talk
>> >>>>>> to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova
>> >>>>>> developers to see if what is the possibility to use github with the
>> >>>>>> understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving in place
>> >>>> like
>> >>>>> I layout in my email?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>
>> >>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana
>> >>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>> >>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
>> >>>>>>>> We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> 1. Use Github Issues
>> >>>>>>>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
>> >>>>>>>> Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create
>> >>>>>>>> corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing
>> >>>>>>>> this
>> >>>>>>>> with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at Apache
>> >>>>>>> hate
>> >>>>>> GitHub
>> >>>>>>> with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough problems
>> >>>>>>> just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would love to
>> >>>>>>> dump JIRA
>> >>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache
>> >>>>>>> infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less
>> >>>>>>> accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an Apache neckbeard.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache
>> >>>>>>>> Foundation,
>> >>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>>> another open source Foundation? That should not affect the
>> >>>>>>>> community
>> >>>>>> they
>> >>>>>>>> should still continue to interface in Github.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us leaving
>> >>>>>>> the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed to
>> >>>>>>> use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi existed. One
>> >>>>>>> thing
>> >>>>>>> that I think we
>> >>>>>> don't
>> >>>>>>> communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and
>> >>>>>>> how
>> >>>>>> these
>> >>>>>>> stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF cared
>> >>>>>>> about
>> >>>>>> such
>> >>>>>>> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
>> >>>>>>>> <st...@gmail.com>
>> >>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> As a survey it's always biased.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The problem
>> >>>>>>>>> is
>> >>>>>>>> clearly
>> >>>>>>>>> not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this.
>> >>>>>>>>> They
>> >>>>>>> think
>> >>>>>>>>> Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
>> >>>>>>>>> Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile web
>> >>>>>>>>> nor anything relative to the mobile.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most
>> >>>>>>>>> of
>> >>>>>> them
>> >>>>>>>> are
>> >>>>>>>>> native :)
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>>>> Stéphane Bachelier,
>> >>>>>>>>> Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
>> >>>>>>>>> B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
>> >>>>>>>>> jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>> >>>>>>>>>> :
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> I am a developper and I use Cordova.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the
>> >>>>>> details
>> >>>>>>>>> about
>> >>>>>>>>>> how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of the
>> >>>>>>>>>> work
>> >>>>>>>> done
>> >>>>>>>>>> and appreciate it.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't think
>> >>>>>>>>>> I am
>> >>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>>>> only one.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as
>> >>>>>>>>>> good as
>> >>>>>>>> native
>> >>>>>>>>>> ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do
>> >>>>>>>>>> for
>> >>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>>> apps I
>> >>>>>>>>>> work on!
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <Tyler@drumpants.com
>> >>>>> :
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> I think what colors people's perception the most is the
>> >>>>>>>>>>> graphics
>> >>>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>>>>>> interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few
>> >>>>>>>>>>> possible
>> >>>>>>>> reasons:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3
>> >>>>>>>>>>> years
>> >>>>>>> ago.
>> >>>>>>>>> Even
>> >>>>>>>>>>> though it's improved so much since then, those first apps
>> >>>>>>>>>>> still
>> >>>>>>> hang
>> >>>>>>>> in
>> >>>>>>>>>>> people's minds.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth,
>> >>>>>>>>>>> buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern
>> >>>>>>>>>>> WebKit views,
>> >>>>>> but
>> >>>>>>>>> it's
>> >>>>>>>>>>> hard and takes a lot of work.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> * For instance, I came across an article once that
>> >>>>>>>>>>> recommended
>> >>>>>>> using
>> >>>>>>>>> CSS
>> >>>>>>>>>>> transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed
>> >>>>>>>>>>> my
>> >>>>>> whole
>> >>>>>>>> way
>> >>>>>>>>>> of
>> >>>>>>>>>>> thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because
>> >>>>>>>>>>> of
>> >>>>>>> it. I
>> >>>>>>>>>> think
>> >>>>>>>>>>> it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like
>> >>>>>>>>>>> that
>> >>>>>> for
>> >>>>>>>>>> making
>> >>>>>>>>>>> top-notch apps.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port
>> >>>>>>>>>>> their
>> >>>>>>>> iOS-style
>> >>>>>>>>>>> design straight to Android without considering that Android
>> >>>>>>>>>>> users
>> >>>>>>>>> expect
>> >>>>>>>>>> a
>> >>>>>>>>>>> completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do
>> >>>>>>>>>>> about
>> >>>>>>>> this.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Tyler
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
>> >>>>>>>>>> michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> score
>> >>>>>> is
>> >>>>>>>> low
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>> default
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional -
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Git
>> >>>>>>>> Bash,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> development, and
>> >>>>>>> no
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> full
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> this and
>> >>>>>>> as
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Visual
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> survey
>> >>>>>>>>> results
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> improve.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
>> >>>>>>> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely right :-)
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the
>> >>>>>>> developers
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> using
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing
>> >>>>>> nothing
>> >>>>>>>>> about
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the
>> >>>>>>> JS->Native->JS
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> bridge.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
>> >>>>>>> communitcation
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> with
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> plugins.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything
>> >>>>>>> special
>> >>>>>>>> is
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs
>> >>>>>> which
>> >>>>>>>> are
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> not
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>> >>>>>> :-)
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> cordova
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Toplak
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
>> >>>>>>> happy?
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> because
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> everyone can
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
>> >>>>>>> applications
>> >>>>>>>>> is
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova
>> >>>>>> application
>> >>>>>>>>> from
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> another company, you're probably going to end up
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> re-writing it
>> >>>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>>>> if
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> natively
>> >>>>>>> because
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> that's
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> what you're more comfortable with.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> soon, and
>> >>>>>>>> both
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> those
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> technologies share the same property that anyone can
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> create a
>> >>>>>>>> shitty
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>> >>>>>>>> reason,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> and at
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> because I
>> >>>>>>>> think
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Drupal
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>> >>>>>>> think
>> >>>>>>>> we
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> should
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> care what developers say in a survey, since most
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
>> >>>>>> are
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> terrible
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> releasing
>> >>>>>>> isn't
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> terrible.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> <le...@intel.com>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (
>> >>>> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
>> >>>>> ).
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most Dreaded technologies:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Salesforce 73.2%
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual Basic 72.0%
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress 68.2%
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matlab 65.6%
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sharepoint 62.8%
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> LAMP 62.2%
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perl 59.2%
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova 58.8%
>> >>>>> **************
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffeescript 54.7%
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other 57.3%
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> % of devs who are developing with the language or tech
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>> >>>>>>> have
>> >>>>>>>>> not
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> expressed interest in continuing to do so.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
>> >>>>>>>> answers.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather
>> >>>>>>>> looking
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> for
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback from those who have heard developers express
>> >>>>>>>> frustration
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> with
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * There is no problem - unclear question led to
>> >>>> the
>> >>>>>>>> answer
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * The problem is really about creating native
>> >>>> apps
>> >>>>> in
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> JavaScript +
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> HTML5
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Cordova CLI has a quality problem
>> >>>> (learnability |
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> usability |
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliability)
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too hard to set up development environment
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o The command CLI is too complicated
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Not enough learning material (documentation,
>> >>>> articles,
>> >>>>>>>> books)
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too many bugs
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Changes too frequently
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leo
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Freeman
>> >>>>>>>>>>> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from mobile
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>>>>> Cordialement,
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Voltaire José-luc
>> >>>>>>>>>> Directeur Technique
>> >>>>>>>>>> Netdevices
>> >>>>>>>>>> e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
>> >>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> --
>> >>>>>> Carlos Santana
>> >>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>>
>>
Re: Github, again.
Posted by Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io>.
I said as much Jim. As to FUD...
On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 6:18 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
>
> http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-
> Foundation-tp5722483p5722847.html
>
> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
>
> > On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> >
> > It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP
> (code).
> > Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google Code)
> or
> > worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
> >
> > I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that
> most
> > brands appear to feel this risk is low.
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015, 5:22 PM Gorkem Ercan <go...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> On 9 Apr 2015, at 15:38, Andrew Grieve wrote:
> >>
> >>> Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right now,
> >>> but I
> >>> will promise to post back with some formulated thoughts a bit later
> >>> (some
> >>> of this I'm prepping for my ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it
> >>> anyways).
> >>>
> >>> Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not
> >>> constructive.
> >>> If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not for the
> >>> sake
> >>> of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things about
> >>> others
> >>> almost always ends up making you look worse than those you are being
> >>> negative towards.
> >>>
> >>> Another angle:
> >>> Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though your
> >>> views are
> >>> your own (although statements like "Or we could just leave the ASF"
> >>> make it
> >>> sound like you are representing more than that), your tone often just
> >>> makes
> >>> people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to
> >>> contribute to
> >>> a project that is full of smileys and encouragement, or one where
> >>> people
> >>> are negative and abrasive? It really goes a long way to keep the email
> >>> tone
> >>> positive even when you disagree.
> >>>
> >>> Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova Apache'ers
> >>> (we
> >>> are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful:
> >>> - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us set one
> >>> up.
> >>> - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their shared
> >>> instance.
> >>> - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a
> >>> collaboration
> >>> between Infra and other projects that made it happen (we complained,
> >>> but
> >>> didn't do the work to make it possible).
> >>> - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time (although
> >>> we
> >>> decided not to stick with it).
> >>>
> >>> Why can we not use Github issues?
> >>> - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github.
> >>> - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a conversation that
> >>> hasn't happened yet.
> >>> - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but do
> >>> issue
> >>> trackers count as "data"?
> >>
> >> This may actually be intellectual property related. Eclipse foundation
> >> which allows GitHub to be used as primary SCM, does not allow GitHub
> >> as issue tracker because it can not be covered by the Eclipse.org terms
> >> of use.
> >>
> >>> - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have.
> >>> - dev@community.apache.org would be a great place to start, since
> >>> that's
> >>> meant for cross-project discussion.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> >>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree, it
> >>>>> is
> >>>>> offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring to (and
> >>>>> why *I*
> >>>>> dread ever posting to this list, shame that question wasn't in the
> >>>>> Stack
> >>>>> Overflow survey).
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based on the
> >>>> tone
> >>>> you're using, I can't be sure. If you're looking to make a personal
> >>>> attack
> >>>> on me publicly, then fine, go ahead. On this list, these comments
> >>>> only
> >>>> reflect my own personal views. It's clear that people don't agree
> >>>> with me,
> >>>> because we're still here.
> >>>>
> >>>> Joe
> >>>>
> >>>> Ross
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
> >>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> >>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no additional
> >>>>>> influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>> participation.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times. There are
> >>>> clearly
> >>>>> people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had to
> >>>>> fight
> >>>>> the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this
> >>>>> project, and
> >>>>> I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually leave.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the way
> >>>>>> they
> >>>>>> are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to
> >>>>>> propose
> >>>>>> changes that work.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation whose
> >>>> rules
> >>>>> aren't as rigid. That could work too.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just that.
> >>>>>> Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there are
> >>>>>> some
> >>>>>> individuals who certainly do not fit into this category, but their
> >>>>>> voices are usually drowned out.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF. I regret that we
> >>>> donated
> >>>>> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been
> >>>>> complained
> >>>>> about so many times by our community members who have followed us
> >>>>> since
> >>>> we
> >>>>> started this thing. However, we're stuck here now, and the people
> >>>>> who
> >>>> feel
> >>>>> like working with the ASF are doing so. You're never going to
> >>>>> convince
> >>>>> everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially
> >>>>> since
> >>>> your
> >>>>> organization has been passively aggressively attacking various parts
> >>>>> of
> >>>> the
> >>>>> JS community for years. Honestly, I think it's a miracle that we
> >>>>> haven't
> >>>>> forked yet.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Joe
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Ross
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
> >>>>>> ________________________________
> >>>>>> From: Carlos Santana<ma...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>> Sent: 4/9/2015 9:00 AM
> >>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Joe,
> >>>>>> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want, while
> >>>>>> at the same time without being punched in the face :-)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Marcel,
> >>>>>> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you talk
> >>>>>> to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova
> >>>>>> developers to see if what is the possibility to use github with the
> >>>>>> understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving in place
> >>>> like
> >>>>> I layout in my email?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana
> >>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
> >>>>>>>> We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 1. Use Github Issues
> >>>>>>>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
> >>>>>>>> Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create
> >>>>>>>> corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing
> >>>>>>>> this
> >>>>>>>> with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at Apache
> >>>>>>> hate
> >>>>>> GitHub
> >>>>>>> with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough problems
> >>>>>>> just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would love to
> >>>>>>> dump JIRA
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache
> >>>>>>> infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less
> >>>>>>> accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an Apache neckbeard.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache
> >>>>>>>> Foundation,
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>> another open source Foundation? That should not affect the
> >>>>>>>> community
> >>>>>> they
> >>>>>>>> should still continue to interface in Github.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us leaving
> >>>>>>> the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed to
> >>>>>>> use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi existed. One
> >>>>>>> thing
> >>>>>>> that I think we
> >>>>>> don't
> >>>>>>> communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and
> >>>>>>> how
> >>>>>> these
> >>>>>>> stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF cared
> >>>>>>> about
> >>>>>> such
> >>>>>>> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
> >>>>>>>> <st...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> As a survey it's always biased.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The problem
> >>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>> clearly
> >>>>>>>>> not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this.
> >>>>>>>>> They
> >>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>> Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
> >>>>>>>>> Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile web
> >>>>>>>>> nor anything relative to the mobile.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most
> >>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>> them
> >>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>> native :)
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> Stéphane Bachelier,
> >>>>>>>>> Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
> >>>>>>>>> B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
> >>>>>>>>> jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >>>>>>>>>> :
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I am a developper and I use Cordova.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the
> >>>>>> details
> >>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>> how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of the
> >>>>>>>>>> work
> >>>>>>>> done
> >>>>>>>>>> and appreciate it.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't think
> >>>>>>>>>> I am
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>> only one.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as
> >>>>>>>>>> good as
> >>>>>>>> native
> >>>>>>>>>> ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do
> >>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>> apps I
> >>>>>>>>>> work on!
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <Tyler@drumpants.com
> >>>>> :
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I think what colors people's perception the most is the
> >>>>>>>>>>> graphics
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>> interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few
> >>>>>>>>>>> possible
> >>>>>>>> reasons:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3
> >>>>>>>>>>> years
> >>>>>>> ago.
> >>>>>>>>> Even
> >>>>>>>>>>> though it's improved so much since then, those first apps
> >>>>>>>>>>> still
> >>>>>>> hang
> >>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>> people's minds.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth,
> >>>>>>>>>>> buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern
> >>>>>>>>>>> WebKit views,
> >>>>>> but
> >>>>>>>>> it's
> >>>>>>>>>>> hard and takes a lot of work.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> * For instance, I came across an article once that
> >>>>>>>>>>> recommended
> >>>>>>> using
> >>>>>>>>> CSS
> >>>>>>>>>>> transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed
> >>>>>>>>>>> my
> >>>>>> whole
> >>>>>>>> way
> >>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>> thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because
> >>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>> it. I
> >>>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>> it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like
> >>>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>> making
> >>>>>>>>>>> top-notch apps.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port
> >>>>>>>>>>> their
> >>>>>>>> iOS-style
> >>>>>>>>>>> design straight to Android without considering that Android
> >>>>>>>>>>> users
> >>>>>>>>> expect
> >>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>> completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do
> >>>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>> this.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Tyler
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
> >>>>>>>>>> michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> score
> >>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>> low
> >>>>>>>>>>>> because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> default
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional -
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Git
> >>>>>>>> Bash,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven
> >>>>>>>>>>>> development, and
> >>>>>>> no
> >>>>>>>>>>>> full
> >>>>>>>>>>>> blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving
> >>>>>>>>>>>> this and
> >>>>>>> as
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Visual
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those
> >>>>>>>>>>>> survey
> >>>>>>>>> results
> >>>>>>>>>>>> improve.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
> >>>>>>> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely right :-)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the
> >>>>>>> developers
> >>>>>>>>>>>> using
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing
> >>>>>> nothing
> >>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the
> >>>>>>> JS->Native->JS
> >>>>>>>>>>>> bridge.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
> >>>>>>> communitcation
> >>>>>>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> plugins.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything
> >>>>>>> special
> >>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs
> >>>>>> which
> >>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>> :-)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> cordova
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Toplak
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >>>>>>> happy?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> because
> >>>>>>>>>>>> everyone can
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
> >>>>>>> applications
> >>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova
> >>>>>> application
> >>>>>>>>> from
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> another company, you're probably going to end up
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> re-writing it
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>> if
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> natively
> >>>>>>> because
> >>>>>>>>>>>> that's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> what you're more comfortable with.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> soon, and
> >>>>>>>> both
> >>>>>>>>>>>> those
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> technologies share the same property that anyone can
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> create a
> >>>>>>>> shitty
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>> reason,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and at
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> because I
> >>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Drupal
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
> >>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>> we
> >>>>>>>>>>>> should
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> care what developers say in a survey, since most
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>>>> terrible
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> releasing
> >>>>>>> isn't
> >>>>>>>>>>>> terrible.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
> >>>>>>>>>>>> <le...@intel.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (
> >>>> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
> >>>>> ).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most Dreaded technologies:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Salesforce 73.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual Basic 72.0%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress 68.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matlab 65.6%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sharepoint 62.8%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> LAMP 62.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perl 59.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova 58.8%
> >>>>> **************
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffeescript 54.7%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other 57.3%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> % of devs who are developing with the language or tech
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
> >>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> expressed interest in continuing to do so.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
> >>>>>>>> answers.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather
> >>>>>>>> looking
> >>>>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback from those who have heard developers express
> >>>>>>>> frustration
> >>>>>>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * There is no problem - unclear question led to
> >>>> the
> >>>>>>>> answer
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * The problem is really about creating native
> >>>> apps
> >>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>> JavaScript +
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> HTML5
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Cordova CLI has a quality problem
> >>>> (learnability |
> >>>>>>>>>>>> usability |
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliability)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too hard to set up development environment
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o The command CLI is too complicated
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Not enough learning material (documentation,
> >>>> articles,
> >>>>>>>> books)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too many bugs
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Changes too frequently
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leo
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Freeman
> >>>>>>>>>>> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from mobile
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>> Cordialement,
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Voltaire José-luc
> >>>>>>>>>> Directeur Technique
> >>>>>>>>>> Netdevices
> >>>>>>>>>> e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
> >>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Carlos Santana
> >>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >>
> >>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>
>