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Posted to dev@cocoon.apache.org by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org> on 2005/05/24 01:48:45 UTC
Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
I can't find any copyright or license information on the planetcocoon
site. Can you please point me at the relevant page.
I'm concerned as much of the documentation content appears to be direct
duplicates of materials in Cocoons official documentation or mailing
lists but I cannot find the required acknowledgement to Apache Software
Foundation. I know you are working closely with the Cocoon community so
I am sure this is only an oversight (possibly on my part).
In addition, can you tell me if Drupal is able to serve nodes as
unprocessed content. That is, can I retrieve a version of a node that
has only the content, no navigation or other such decoration.
If it is possible to do this, what license will your own original
matrials be released under?
My reason for asking both questins is that I'd like to consider adding
an input plugin to Forrest in order to assist in your stated objective
of "Every effort will be made to ensure that information generated on
Planet Cocoon will end up in the official documentation" (quote from
your home page).
Ross
Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
Mark Leicester wrote:
> I want to resolve the
> licensing issues ASAP. With the ASF license, am I correct in thinking
> that I need to simply attribute the documentation to Apache, noting
> changes as necessary? What would be a suitable wording? "This document
> is derived from, and contains portions of material originally from
> [source]"
There is a bit more to it than that, but nothing to difficult to comply
with. See section 4 of http://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0
> PlanetCocoon won't hold any copyright on original material. A
> non-restrictive Creative Commons license would seem appropriate. What do
> others think?
If you intend to donate content back to Cocoon the license will have to
be ASF2 as you donate it back.
>> My reason for asking both questins is that I'd like to consider adding
>> an input plugin to Forrest in order to assist in your stated objective
>> of "Every effort will be made to ensure that information generated on
>> Planet Cocoon will end up in the official documentation" (quote from
>> your home page).
>
>
> Yes, let's discuss import/export. I think it's important that we come up
> with some means to exchange information. If we come up with a good
> working solution then our diverse solutions to the documentation problem
> may become a community strength, and not the weakness it might initially
> appear. My thinking is that something based on RSS, with RDF might be
> the way, but then Drupal does this already so I may be biased.
With respect to export (from Drupal) as long as you can provide the
content in valid XML or (X)HTML, without the navigation and other
decoration, I can write a plugin for it. I'd like it if the format is
something "standard" either within Drupal or the wider CMS world (RDF
would be just fine). That will make the Forrest plugin more applicable
to other uses.
I'm not really concerned with export (from Cocoon). If you want to come
along to the Forrest dev list we can advise you on building a Forrest
plugin to export in your required format from a Forrest site.
> PS Ross, I really enjoy your writings at
> http://www.jroller.com/page/rgardler, is there any chance of a Cocoon
> category from your blog?
I hardly ever write on Cocoon specific topics, I suppose the Forrest
stuff could go into such a category. I tell you what I'll do, next time
I write something directly applicable to Cocoon then I'll add the
category and let you know. My hesitency is because JRoller doesn't allow
a post to be in multiple categories.
Ross
Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Posted by Mark Leicester <ma...@efurbishment.com>.
Hi Ross,
On 24 May 2005, at 00:48, Ross Gardler wrote:
> I can't find any copyright or license information on the planetcocoon
> site. Can you please point me at the relevant page.
>
> I'm concerned as much of the documentation content appears to be
> direct duplicates of materials in Cocoons official documentation or
> mailing lists but I cannot find the required acknowledgement to Apache
> Software Foundation. I know you are working closely with the Cocoon
> community so I am sure this is only an oversight (possibly on my
> part).
You are right that a lot of what is there does duplicate material from
other sources. It's not always a direct duplication; obviously we want
to do more than just duplicate the material. While some material is
indeed verbatim, there are also edits (which will become patches in due
course), and some major redistribution (the intention is to create a
single printable book).
It is an oversight - on my part - that there is not yet any attribution
to the Wiki, or to the main Cocoon documentation. I want to resolve the
licensing issues ASAP. With the ASF license, am I correct in thinking
that I need to simply attribute the documentation to Apache, noting
changes as necessary? What would be a suitable wording? "This document
is derived from, and contains portions of material originally from
[source]"
PlanetCocoon won't hold any copyright on original material. A
non-restrictive Creative Commons license would seem appropriate. What
do others think?
> In addition, can you tell me if Drupal is able to serve nodes as
> unprocessed content. That is, can I retrieve a version of a node that
> has only the content, no navigation or other such decoration.
>
> If it is possible to do this, what license will your own original
> matrials be released under?
>
> My reason for asking both questins is that I'd like to consider adding
> an input plugin to Forrest in order to assist in your stated objective
> of "Every effort will be made to ensure that information generated on
> Planet Cocoon will end up in the official documentation" (quote from
> your home page).
Yes, let's discuss import/export. I think it's important that we come
up with some means to exchange information. If we come up with a good
working solution then our diverse solutions to the documentation
problem may become a community strength, and not the weakness it might
initially appear. My thinking is that something based on RSS, with RDF
might be the way, but then Drupal does this already so I may be biased.
Regards,
Mark
PS Ross, I really enjoy your writings at
http://www.jroller.com/page/rgardler, is there any chance of a Cocoon
category from your blog?
Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Posted by Sylvain Wallez <sy...@apache.org>.
Sebastien Arbogast wrote:
>2005/5/24, Upayavira <uv...@odoko.co.uk>:
>
>
>>Antonio Gallardo wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Mar, 24 de Mayo de 2005, 15:35, Sylvain Wallez dijo:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Sebastien Arbogast wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>The second important thing I notice in your remark is the argument
>>>>>that people here know Cocoon but not PHP. But it's exactly our point :
>>>>>we don't think Cocoon documentation should remain between Cocoon
>>>>>developers and that's also why we chose a PHP based CMS : because
>>>>>people are used to it, to its structures, to its customs. Right now
>>>>>it's much more natural than any Cocoon-based solution. We consider
>>>>>that documentation should not be written by developers and read by
>>>>>users... everybody should be able to participate in the same effort
>>>>>according to its own skills.
>>>>>
>>>>>Last but not least, our objective is precisely to make documentation
>>>>>writing completely independent from the unerlying technologies, so
>>>>>nobody should need to know neither Cocoon nor PHP to write
>>>>>documentation (yes a little bit of Cocoon should be useful if one
>>>>>wants his content to be useful but... you got my point)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>I'm sorry, but this is plain bullshit blabla to ease the pain of not
>>>>using our own dog food.
>>>>
>>>>Cocoon is used by some huge content management systems all over the
>>>>world. And it wouldn't be suitable to manage its own docs? People will
>>>>laugh at us and go away.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Sorry to get my spoon in this thread. Sylvain POV is valid. To make the
>>>things clear, the problem related to cocoon docs was and IS content
>>>related. No one technology is not going to automatically write the Cocoon
>>>documentation for us now. We need people that write it.
>>>
>>>We have great CMS cocoon based as Apache Lenya or Daisy. Also there is
>>>Apache Forrest. All of them can manage this task. But again the problem is
>>>not about the technology.
>>>
>>>
>>That is not correct. To use Forrest, Lenya, Daisy, or Drupal, for that
>>matter, you need to be familiar with it. Mark is familiar with Drupal,
>>so it is what he used.
>>
>>As I have said previously, people who want to write docs aren't
>>necessarily the same people who want to learn and install (or even
>>write) content management systems. If we want people to use a Cocoon
>>based CMS, then we need to give them one! I.e. install it somewhere, set
>>up the systems so that people who want to write content can just do it,
>>without having to learn to use SVN, to download Forrest, etc, etc. No,
>>just go to a website, click 'add', and start typing.
>>
>>Regards, Upayavira
>>
>>
>
>I won't enter this polemic since we have already had this discussion before and Upayavira's arguments speak for themselves.
>Sylvain and Antonio let me just ask you one single question : if those Cocoon-based CMS are so wonderful (and actually they are, but not for what we need) why is that that Cocoon documentation is still such an issue after five years of Cocoon development ?
>
>
Before writing such statements, please read the last five years of
cocoon-dev archives, little padawan.
Start here: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-dev&r=1&b=199911&w=2
Cocoon has been used for ages in large commercial but closed systems,
and we wanted to use Cocoon for our docs because we are proud of what
we've written. Now it's only recently that some usable opensource CMSes
built on Cocoon came to life. And it's even more recently (a few hours
ago AFAIU) that the Apache infrastructure can provide us with the needed
resources to host a Cocoon-based CMS at Apache.
That explains the state of our docs, along with other issues I already
taked about related to the composition of the Cocoon developper
community, which are its primary users and augment their favorite tool
when their projects require it, and have that expert knowledge that
(unfortunately) don't require that much docs.
>For you technology is not the matter. For us it is.
>
Open your ears wide: technology does matter to me. That's a main point.
I don't want and will not write Cocoon docs on a PHP-based system.
Period. Is that clear now?
>And we want to get things done now. That's it. End of this discussion for me...
>
>
Beginning of the discussion about an ASF-hosted Cocoon-powered
documentation system for us...
Sylvain
--
Sylvain Wallez Anyware Technologies
http://apache.org/~sylvain http://anyware-tech.com
Apache Software Foundation Member Research & Technology Director
Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Posted by Antonio Gallardo <ag...@agssa.net>.
On Mar, 24 de Mayo de 2005, 16:18, Sebastien Arbogast dijo:
> 2005/5/24, Upayavira <uv...@odoko.co.uk>:
>> Antonio Gallardo wrote:
>> > On Mar, 24 de Mayo de 2005, 15:35, Sylvain Wallez dijo:
>> >
>> >>Sebastien Arbogast wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>The second important thing I notice in your remark is the argument
>> >>>that people here know Cocoon but not PHP. But it's exactly our point
>> :
>> >>>we don't think Cocoon documentation should remain between Cocoon
>> >>>developers and that's also why we chose a PHP based CMS : because
>> >>>people are used to it, to its structures, to its customs. Right now
>> >>>it's much more natural than any Cocoon-based solution. We consider
>> >>>that documentation should not be written by developers and read by
>> >>>users... everybody should be able to participate in the same effort
>> >>>according to its own skills.
>> >>>
>> >>>Last but not least, our objective is precisely to make documentation
>> >>>writing completely independent from the unerlying technologies, so
>> >>>nobody should need to know neither Cocoon nor PHP to write
>> >>>documentation (yes a little bit of Cocoon should be useful if one
>> >>>wants his content to be useful but... you got my point)
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>I'm sorry, but this is plain bullshit blabla to ease the pain of not
>> >>using our own dog food.
>> >>
>> >>Cocoon is used by some huge content management systems all over the
>> >>world. And it wouldn't be suitable to manage its own docs? People will
>> >>laugh at us and go away.
>> >
>> >
>> > Sorry to get my spoon in this thread. Sylvain POV is valid. To make
>> the
>> > things clear, the problem related to cocoon docs was and IS content
>> > related. No one technology is not going to automatically write the
>> Cocoon
>> > documentation for us now. We need people that write it.
>> >
>> > We have great CMS cocoon based as Apache Lenya or Daisy. Also there is
>> > Apache Forrest. All of them can manage this task. But again the
>> problem is
>> > not about the technology.
>>
>> That is not correct. To use Forrest, Lenya, Daisy, or Drupal, for that
>> matter, you need to be familiar with it. Mark is familiar with Drupal,
>> so it is what he used.
>>
>> As I have said previously, people who want to write docs aren't
>> necessarily the same people who want to learn and install (or even
>> write) content management systems. If we want people to use a Cocoon
>> based CMS, then we need to give them one! I.e. install it somewhere, set
>> up the systems so that people who want to write content can just do it,
>> without having to learn to use SVN, to download Forrest, etc, etc. No,
>> just go to a website, click 'add', and start typing.
>>
>> Regards, Upayavira
>
> I won't enter this polemic since we have already had this discussion
> before and Upayavira's arguments speak for themselves.
> Sylvain and Antonio let me just ask you one single question : if those
> Cocoon-based CMS are so wonderful (and actually they are, but not for
> what we need) why is that that Cocoon documentation is still such an
> issue after five years of Cocoon development ?
The answer to your question is because things evolve in time. I will like
to see you 3 or 4 years ago when there was literally NO cocoon
documentation at all. Just a handfull to start. But this is not the point
now.
Being rethoric as you like, there are a lot of other question to ask. For
example, show me the documents written that does not contain info that is
not in our wiki our docs our mail archives?
> For you technology is not the matter. For us it is.
> And we want to get things done now. That's it.
Well, where are the new great docs? As you told, you want the things done
and I want to see them! ;-)
The only thing I was able to see is a lot of mail talking endlessly about
how to improve the docs and nothing more. That's all. And BTW, I already
read a lot of this mails about the same topic for years. It is really
boring.
> End of this discussion for me...
As you wish. Should I can you now, boss? ;-)
Best Regards,
Antonio Gallardo.
Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Posted by Sebastien Arbogast <se...@gmail.com>.
2005/5/24, Upayavira <uv...@odoko.co.uk>:
> Antonio Gallardo wrote:
> > On Mar, 24 de Mayo de 2005, 15:35, Sylvain Wallez dijo:
> >
> >>Sebastien Arbogast wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>The second important thing I notice in your remark is the argument
> >>>that people here know Cocoon but not PHP. But it's exactly our point :
> >>>we don't think Cocoon documentation should remain between Cocoon
> >>>developers and that's also why we chose a PHP based CMS : because
> >>>people are used to it, to its structures, to its customs. Right now
> >>>it's much more natural than any Cocoon-based solution. We consider
> >>>that documentation should not be written by developers and read by
> >>>users... everybody should be able to participate in the same effort
> >>>according to its own skills.
> >>>
> >>>Last but not least, our objective is precisely to make documentation
> >>>writing completely independent from the unerlying technologies, so
> >>>nobody should need to know neither Cocoon nor PHP to write
> >>>documentation (yes a little bit of Cocoon should be useful if one
> >>>wants his content to be useful but... you got my point)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>I'm sorry, but this is plain bullshit blabla to ease the pain of not
> >>using our own dog food.
> >>
> >>Cocoon is used by some huge content management systems all over the
> >>world. And it wouldn't be suitable to manage its own docs? People will
> >>laugh at us and go away.
> >
> >
> > Sorry to get my spoon in this thread. Sylvain POV is valid. To make the
> > things clear, the problem related to cocoon docs was and IS content
> > related. No one technology is not going to automatically write the Cocoon
> > documentation for us now. We need people that write it.
> >
> > We have great CMS cocoon based as Apache Lenya or Daisy. Also there is
> > Apache Forrest. All of them can manage this task. But again the problem is
> > not about the technology.
>
> That is not correct. To use Forrest, Lenya, Daisy, or Drupal, for that
> matter, you need to be familiar with it. Mark is familiar with Drupal,
> so it is what he used.
>
> As I have said previously, people who want to write docs aren't
> necessarily the same people who want to learn and install (or even
> write) content management systems. If we want people to use a Cocoon
> based CMS, then we need to give them one! I.e. install it somewhere, set
> up the systems so that people who want to write content can just do it,
> without having to learn to use SVN, to download Forrest, etc, etc. No,
> just go to a website, click 'add', and start typing.
>
> Regards, Upayavira
I won't enter this polemic since we have already had this discussion
before and Upayavira's arguments speak for themselves.
Sylvain and Antonio let me just ask you one single question : if those
Cocoon-based CMS are so wonderful (and actually they are, but not for
what we need) why is that that Cocoon documentation is still such an
issue after five years of Cocoon development ?
For you technology is not the matter. For us it is. And we want to get
things done now. That's it. End of this discussion for me...
--
Sebastien ARBOGAST
Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
Upayavira wrote:
> Antonio Gallardo wrote:
...
>> With the new apache zones, I think there is posible in a rasonable amount
>> of time (hours?) to setup a CMS to do the job.
>>
>> WDYT?
>
>
> Then someone should do it, and we will see where that takes us. I'll
> volunteer for the part of doing any document conversions that might be
> required.
I intend to do some experimentation over at Forrest with Daisy as the
CMS once we have Forrest 0.7 released (very soon now).
In the meantime, I will continue to work with PlanetCocoon and other
such initiatives (the Wiki for exmample) to allow any content they
create to be incorporated into the Cocoon docs, and to provide a link
back to the relevant "host" CMS.
When we have a working demo the Cocoon community can decide if they want
to use it.
Ross
Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Posted by Antonio Gallardo <ag...@agssa.net>.
On Mar, 24 de Mayo de 2005, 16:16, Upayavira dijo:
> Antonio Gallardo wrote:
>> On Mar, 24 de Mayo de 2005, 15:42, Upayavira dijo:
>>
>>>Sylvain Wallez wrote:
>>>
>>>>Sebastien Arbogast wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>The second important thing I notice in your remark is the argument
>>>>>that people here know Cocoon but not PHP. But it's exactly our point :
>>>>>we don't think Cocoon documentation should remain between Cocoon
>>>>>developers and that's also why we chose a PHP based CMS : because
>>>>>people are used to it, to its structures, to its customs. Right now
>>>>>it's much more natural than any Cocoon-based solution. We consider
>>>>>that documentation should not be written by developers and read by
>>>>>users... everybody should be able to participate in the same effort
>>>>>according to its own skills.
>>>>>
>>>>>Last but not least, our objective is precisely to make documentation
>>>>>writing completely independent from the unerlying technologies, so
>>>>>nobody should need to know neither Cocoon nor PHP to write
>>>>>documentation (yes a little bit of Cocoon should be useful if one
>>>>>wants his content to be useful but... you got my point)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I'm sorry, but this is plain bullshit blabla to ease the pain of not
>>>>using our own dog food.
>>>>
>>>>Cocoon is used by some huge content management systems all over the
>>>>world. And it wouldn't be suitable to manage its own docs? People will
>>>>laugh at us and go away.
>>>>
>>>>Sorry, I currently lack time to read this thread in full details, as
>>>> I'm
>>>>currently giving a Cocoon training to people writing a huge
>>>>document/content management system... with Cocoon.
>>>
>>>Yes, but is it the job of someone who is interested in writing docs to
>>>actually write a CMS at the same time? This seems like a bit much to
>>> ask.
>>>
>>>If someone else can offer an existing CMS that has the features they
>>>need, and can be installed and operational within a reasonable amount of
>>>time, then we'd be asking different questions.
>>
>>
>> With the new apache zones, I think there is posible in a rasonable
>> amount
>> of time (hours?) to setup a CMS to do the job.
>>
>> WDYT?
>
> Then someone should do it, and we will see where that takes us. I'll
> volunteer for the part of doing any document conversions that might be
> required.
OK. I think we need to switch to other thread this. ;-)
Best Regards,
Antonio Gallardo
Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Posted by Upayavira <uv...@odoko.co.uk>.
Antonio Gallardo wrote:
> On Mar, 24 de Mayo de 2005, 15:42, Upayavira dijo:
>
>>Sylvain Wallez wrote:
>>
>>>Sebastien Arbogast wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>The second important thing I notice in your remark is the argument
>>>>that people here know Cocoon but not PHP. But it's exactly our point :
>>>>we don't think Cocoon documentation should remain between Cocoon
>>>>developers and that's also why we chose a PHP based CMS : because
>>>>people are used to it, to its structures, to its customs. Right now
>>>>it's much more natural than any Cocoon-based solution. We consider
>>>>that documentation should not be written by developers and read by
>>>>users... everybody should be able to participate in the same effort
>>>>according to its own skills.
>>>>
>>>>Last but not least, our objective is precisely to make documentation
>>>>writing completely independent from the unerlying technologies, so
>>>>nobody should need to know neither Cocoon nor PHP to write
>>>>documentation (yes a little bit of Cocoon should be useful if one
>>>>wants his content to be useful but... you got my point)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>I'm sorry, but this is plain bullshit blabla to ease the pain of not
>>>using our own dog food.
>>>
>>>Cocoon is used by some huge content management systems all over the
>>>world. And it wouldn't be suitable to manage its own docs? People will
>>>laugh at us and go away.
>>>
>>>Sorry, I currently lack time to read this thread in full details, as I'm
>>>currently giving a Cocoon training to people writing a huge
>>>document/content management system... with Cocoon.
>>
>>Yes, but is it the job of someone who is interested in writing docs to
>>actually write a CMS at the same time? This seems like a bit much to ask.
>>
>>If someone else can offer an existing CMS that has the features they
>>need, and can be installed and operational within a reasonable amount of
>>time, then we'd be asking different questions.
>
>
> With the new apache zones, I think there is posible in a rasonable amount
> of time (hours?) to setup a CMS to do the job.
>
> WDYT?
Then someone should do it, and we will see where that takes us. I'll
volunteer for the part of doing any document conversions that might be
required.
Regards, Upayavira
Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Posted by Antonio Gallardo <ag...@agssa.net>.
On Mar, 24 de Mayo de 2005, 15:42, Upayavira dijo:
> Sylvain Wallez wrote:
>> Sebastien Arbogast wrote:
>>
>>> The second important thing I notice in your remark is the argument
>>> that people here know Cocoon but not PHP. But it's exactly our point :
>>> we don't think Cocoon documentation should remain between Cocoon
>>> developers and that's also why we chose a PHP based CMS : because
>>> people are used to it, to its structures, to its customs. Right now
>>> it's much more natural than any Cocoon-based solution. We consider
>>> that documentation should not be written by developers and read by
>>> users... everybody should be able to participate in the same effort
>>> according to its own skills.
>>>
>>> Last but not least, our objective is precisely to make documentation
>>> writing completely independent from the unerlying technologies, so
>>> nobody should need to know neither Cocoon nor PHP to write
>>> documentation (yes a little bit of Cocoon should be useful if one
>>> wants his content to be useful but... you got my point)
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I'm sorry, but this is plain bullshit blabla to ease the pain of not
>> using our own dog food.
>>
>> Cocoon is used by some huge content management systems all over the
>> world. And it wouldn't be suitable to manage its own docs? People will
>> laugh at us and go away.
>>
>> Sorry, I currently lack time to read this thread in full details, as I'm
>> currently giving a Cocoon training to people writing a huge
>> document/content management system... with Cocoon.
>
> Yes, but is it the job of someone who is interested in writing docs to
> actually write a CMS at the same time? This seems like a bit much to ask.
>
> If someone else can offer an existing CMS that has the features they
> need, and can be installed and operational within a reasonable amount of
> time, then we'd be asking different questions.
With the new apache zones, I think there is posible in a rasonable amount
of time (hours?) to setup a CMS to do the job.
WDYT?
Best Regards,
Antonio Gallardo
Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Posted by Daniel Fagerstrom <da...@nada.kth.se>.
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> Le 26 mai 05, à 15:35, Steven Noels a écrit :
>
>> ...That said, next week I'll be back, and if we have our Solaris zone
>> set up and I have access to it (Antonio?), I'll set up MySQL 4.1 +
>> Daisy 1.3M2 on that zone...
>
>
> Cool. I cannot help ATM but this sounds good.
+1
Also there seem to be a lot of activity at Lenya-dev in making Doco
http://wiki.apache.org/cocoon/Doco happen on the zone
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.cms.lenya.devel/11071.
So one way or another we hopefully soon will be able to work on our
documentation on a first class Cocoon based CMS on ASF hardware :)
/Daniel
Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Le 26 mai 05, à 15:35, Steven Noels a écrit :
> ...That said, next week I'll be back, and if we have our Solaris zone
> set up and I have access to it (Antonio?), I'll set up MySQL 4.1 +
> Daisy 1.3M2 on that zone...
Cool. I cannot help ATM but this sounds good.
> ...I wouldn't bother too much with an importer, since IMHO we need a
> clean sheet to work with.
>
> OK?
Yes - people can always copy and paste from legacy docs where it makes
sense.
-Bertrand
Re: demos sites on cocoon zone
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Le 27 mai 05, à 11:10, Daniel Fagerstrom a écrit :
> ...Having all three would be nice. If I had to chose one I would start
> with trunk. That will give it some stress testing and make it mature
> faster. Also it will make us *very* motivated to fix bugs ;)...
Once we have one instance going with a mod_proxy setup, it shouldn't be
hard to add more of them, if the CPU/memory resources allow it (don't
know yet how powerful these zones are).
But if it's trunk, someone will have to setup automatic updating from
svn. Not hard but needs to be done.
Also, it might be good to run each instance under its own username, to
make monitoring or killing them easier.
-Bertrand
Re: demos sites on cocoon zone
Posted by Daniel Fagerstrom <da...@nada.kth.se>.
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> Le 27 mai 05, à 03:24, Antonio Gallardo a écrit :
>
>> ...If I becomes the root of our zone,
>> then I will be glad to provide all the necessary support to materialize
>> this effort...
>
> Great, thanks!
+1 :)
> I've not used solaris yet but I've worked with many different unixes,
> if you can give me access I could probably help (limited time ATM
> though).
>
>> ...As pointed before, I believe we can also setup there some cocoon demo
>> sites. I know, this is OT here, but I think it will be good to have 3
>> demos:
>>
>> 1- Current released version
>> 2- Daily SVN 2.1.x
>> 3- Daily SVN 2.2.x..
>
> Good idea, but I'm not sure if we want to have three versions there,
> maybe we should start with the release and go from there?
Having all three would be nice. If I had to chose one I would start with
trunk. That will give it some stress testing and make it mature faster.
Also it will make us *very* motivated to fix bugs ;)
/Daniel
demos sites on cocoon zone (was: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs)
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Le 27 mai 05, à 03:24, Antonio Gallardo a écrit :
> ...If I becomes the root of our zone,
> then I will be glad to provide all the necessary support to materialize
> this effort...
Great, thanks!
I've not used solaris yet but I've worked with many different unixes,
if you can give me access I could probably help (limited time ATM
though).
> ...As pointed before, I believe we can also setup there some cocoon
> demo
> sites. I know, this is OT here, but I think it will be good to have 3
> demos:
>
> 1- Current released version
> 2- Daily SVN 2.1.x
> 3- Daily SVN 2.2.x..
Good idea, but I'm not sure if we want to have three versions there,
maybe we should start with the release and go from there?
> ...How to do that? I think we have 3 posibilities:
>
> A. On the same servlet container instalation.
> B. Virtual sites. Is this posible inside a zone? I believe yes, but
> not sure...
You mean a mod_proxy kind of thing? That's what I'd suggest, there's no
reason why it shouldn't work in a zone.
The easiest thing IMHO is to just start Cocoon with "./cocoon.sh
servlet", from a script started from rc.d (dunno how it works under
solaris though), and use a specific user for this (say "demo1"). Makes
it very easy to setup and monitor.
Then, if you want to run several versions, start more instances and add
mod_proxy configs to access them.
I have some example configs that I could provide if you need them.
-Bertrand
Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> Le 27 mai 05, à 14:47, Steven Noels a écrit :
>
>> ...People interested in co-administering Daisy (users, creation of
>> variants, ACL rules, sites): please stand up...
>
>
> I haven't used Daisy seriously yet, but if it's small things here and
> there you can count me in.
I'm pretty comfortable with Daisy, I'll assist here if appropriate (I'm
not a Cocoon comitter)
Ross
Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Le 27 mai 05, à 14:47, Steven Noels a écrit :
> ...People interested in co-administering Daisy (users, creation of
> variants, ACL rules, sites): please stand up...
I haven't used Daisy seriously yet, but if it's small things here and
there you can count me in.
-Bertrand
Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 27 May 2005, at 03:24, Antonio Gallardo wrote:
> I believe, I am reading this mail with a time delay. What is clear to
> me
> is that I don't received a root password of the cocoon Solaris zone.
> And I
> don't know if the zone is already up. If I becomes the root of our
> zone,
> then I will be glad to provide all the necessary support to materialize
> this effort.
Great. Maybe I understated my own sysadmin capabilities - if Solaris is
a wee bit Unix-like, I'll find my way around and I'll be able to help
out. And I've got experience using Wrapper (tanukisoftware.org) to
deploy Java apps as services, running under their own user - I use this
extensively at cocoondev.org (on Debian Linux).
AFAIU, setup has been aborted prematurely, and infra@ folks are still
discussing ways to handle password handover. So no zone and password as
of now, but it's somewhere in the pipeline.
> As pointed before, I believe we can also setup there some cocoon demo
> sites. I know, this is OT here, but I think it will be good to have 3
> demos:
>
> 1- Current released version
> 2- Daily SVN 2.1.x
> 3- Daily SVN 2.2.x
>
> Having up demo sites are a powerful marketing tool. And I am sure all
> of
> us know that. ;-)
>
> How to do that? I think we have 3 posibilities:
>
> A. On the same servlet container instalation.
-1
> C. Diferent containers using diferent ports for each instalation.
+1
I know my way around mod_proxy and friends to set this up properly.
Seems like the box is quite powerful, so running a few Java VMs
alongside each other shouldn't be a problem. And Daisy needs 3 of them
anyhow (OpenJMS/repo server/Cocoon).
Daisy binaries come with a precompiled Cocoon distribution, so setup is
rather easy - we'll just have to juggle around port numbers.
I volunteer to hand-migrate Helma's http://cocoondev.org/handbook/
stuff, and I'll get back to the list to discuss Daisy configuration
(mostly metadata, document types, collections, branches and languages,
and how we'll configure the draft/publish/comment/ACL to make it easy
and manageable). Once we have that stabilized, and work on the
refactoring of the Daisy publishing code has started, we can look at
skinning - upsofar the contract for skin-implementors is a bit too
volatile IMO. So I'd propose to just stick with the default layout, or
only tweak the CSS.
People interested in co-administering Daisy (users, creation of
variants, ACL rules, sites): please stand up.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Posted by Antonio Gallardo <ag...@agssa.net>.
On Jue, 26 de Mayo de 2005, 8:35, Steven Noels dijo:
> On 24 May 2005, at 22:42, Upayavira wrote:
>
>> If someone else can offer an existing CMS that has the features they
>> need, and can be installed and operational within a reasonable amount
>> of time, then we'd be asking different questions.
>
> I'm at a conference this week, so e-mail access is erratic.
>
> That said, next week I'll be back, and if we have our Solaris zone set
> up and I have access to it (Antonio?), I'll set up MySQL 4.1 + Daisy
> 1.3M2 on that zone.
I believe, I am reading this mail with a time delay. What is clear to me
is that I don't received a root password of the cocoon Solaris zone. And I
don't know if the zone is already up. If I becomes the root of our zone,
then I will be glad to provide all the necessary support to materialize
this effort.
As pointed before, I believe we can also setup there some cocoon demo
sites. I know, this is OT here, but I think it will be good to have 3
demos:
1- Current released version
2- Daily SVN 2.1.x
3- Daily SVN 2.2.x
Having up demo sites are a powerful marketing tool. And I am sure all of
us know that. ;-)
How to do that? I think we have 3 posibilities:
A. On the same servlet container instalation.
B. Virtual sites. Is this posible inside a zone? I believe yes, but not sure.
C. Diferent containers using diferent ports for each instalation.
Best Regards,
Antonio Gallardo
Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
Steven Noels wrote:
> On 24 May 2005, at 22:42, Upayavira wrote:
>
>> If someone else can offer an existing CMS that has the features they
>> need, and can be installed and operational within a reasonable amount
>> of time, then we'd be asking different questions.
>
>
> I'm at a conference this week, so e-mail access is erratic.
>
> That said, next week I'll be back, and if we have our Solaris zone set
> up and I have access to it (Antonio?), I'll set up MySQL 4.1 + Daisy
> 1.3M2 on that zone.
>
> We don't have time currently to implement an xdocs importer or exporter,
> but I doubt this is an unachievable task. If anyone wants to beat us to
> it (and please do), there's the ancient JSPWiki importer in the Daisy
> SVN repo (which would need to be updated anyhow). An exporter however is
> a different beast altogether, but we make a sincere promise we'll try to
> get there in the foreseeable future. Not a question of do-a-bility, but
> rather time and priorities.
Forrest, with the Daisy plugin, provides most of the export already
(need a little more work on it to make it complete).
> I wouldn't bother too much with an importer, since IMHO we need a clean
> sheet to work with.
I agree, and using Forrest removes the need to create the importer.
We can either migrate active and accurate documents gradually to Daisy,
or we can just use them from their current location. This provides an
*immediate* start on new documentation without forking content and
without starting from a completely blank slate. In other words, exactly
what was started with the documentation review.
With respect to using Daisy with/without Forrest. Personally, I would
never replace Forrest as it allows content from different sources to be
integrated into the final documentation. In other words it allows us to
leverage content from initiatives such as Planet Cocoon if they start to
produce something worthwhile.
> OK?
We have different views about the final publication stage, but we are in
total agreement about using Daisy as the CMS, so yes, yes yes!!!
Ross
Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@gmail.com>.
On 24 May 2005, at 22:42, Upayavira wrote:
> If someone else can offer an existing CMS that has the features they
> need, and can be installed and operational within a reasonable amount
> of time, then we'd be asking different questions.
I'm at a conference this week, so e-mail access is erratic.
That said, next week I'll be back, and if we have our Solaris zone set
up and I have access to it (Antonio?), I'll set up MySQL 4.1 + Daisy
1.3M2 on that zone.
We don't have time currently to implement an xdocs importer or
exporter, but I doubt this is an unachievable task. If anyone wants to
beat us to it (and please do), there's the ancient JSPWiki importer in
the Daisy SVN repo (which would need to be updated anyhow). An exporter
however is a different beast altogether, but we make a sincere promise
we'll try to get there in the foreseeable future. Not a question of
do-a-bility, but rather time and priorities.
I wouldn't bother too much with an importer, since IMHO we need a clean
sheet to work with.
OK?
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Posted by Upayavira <uv...@odoko.co.uk>.
Sylvain Wallez wrote:
> Sebastien Arbogast wrote:
>
>> The second important thing I notice in your remark is the argument
>> that people here know Cocoon but not PHP. But it's exactly our point :
>> we don't think Cocoon documentation should remain between Cocoon
>> developers and that's also why we chose a PHP based CMS : because
>> people are used to it, to its structures, to its customs. Right now
>> it's much more natural than any Cocoon-based solution. We consider
>> that documentation should not be written by developers and read by
>> users... everybody should be able to participate in the same effort
>> according to its own skills.
>>
>> Last but not least, our objective is precisely to make documentation
>> writing completely independent from the unerlying technologies, so
>> nobody should need to know neither Cocoon nor PHP to write
>> documentation (yes a little bit of Cocoon should be useful if one
>> wants his content to be useful but... you got my point)
>>
>>
>
> I'm sorry, but this is plain bullshit blabla to ease the pain of not
> using our own dog food.
>
> Cocoon is used by some huge content management systems all over the
> world. And it wouldn't be suitable to manage its own docs? People will
> laugh at us and go away.
>
> Sorry, I currently lack time to read this thread in full details, as I'm
> currently giving a Cocoon training to people writing a huge
> document/content management system... with Cocoon.
Yes, but is it the job of someone who is interested in writing docs to
actually write a CMS at the same time? This seems like a bit much to ask.
If someone else can offer an existing CMS that has the features they
need, and can be installed and operational within a reasonable amount of
time, then we'd be asking different questions.
Regards, Upayavira
Re: Small CMS on top of the SVN repository
Posted by Unico Hommes <un...@apache.org>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Reinhard Poetz wrote:
> Unico Hommes wrote:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Sylvain Wallez wrote:
>> <snip/>
>>
>>> Yes it *is* about the technology. Why don't we have cool docs? Because
>>> writing them in XML is a major PITA. That's why I dislike writing docs
>>> so much.
>>>
>>> Give me an htmlarea in a webapp and I'll be happy to dump my brain. And
>>> we have this today with Cocoon.
>>
>>
>>
>> That gets me thinking that perhaps, instead of installing a ready to go
>> CMS like Daisy or Lenya or whathaveyou, we should just start right
>> there. I mean, install a minimal Cocoon with Linotype at
>> cocoon.zones.apache.org and start adding the features we want to it.
>>
>> As a start I'd volunteer to make Linotype use our SVN repository as its
>> backend. I'm sure we can find some space in our repository for that.
>
>
> My initial idea was very similar (instead of Linotyp I'd use Cocoon
> Forms with a widget styled using HTMLArea), see
> http://wiki.apache.org/cocoon/CocoonDocumentationSystem. The new flat
> structure of documents (every document is a directory with a bunch of
> documents) was designed to be easily integrated into a tiny,
> self-written CMS on top of it.
>
Exactly. The document editing side of this is really not very
complicated. We don't need a heavy enterprise level CMS for that. I very
much like the proposal on that wiki page. And I see that already some
work has been done.
I have a little time on my hands to actually implement some of the
things mentioned. My only question is what are others possibly doing in
parallel setting up some other system. I'd rather not duplicate efforts
when it turns out someone has set up Daisy somewhere by the end of this
week. If someone's that close to a working system I say we go with that.
- --
Unico
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Small CMS on top of the SVN repository
Posted by Reinhard Poetz <re...@apache.org>.
Unico Hommes wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Sylvain Wallez wrote:
> <snip/>
>
>>Yes it *is* about the technology. Why don't we have cool docs? Because
>>writing them in XML is a major PITA. That's why I dislike writing docs
>>so much.
>>
>>Give me an htmlarea in a webapp and I'll be happy to dump my brain. And
>>we have this today with Cocoon.
>
>
> That gets me thinking that perhaps, instead of installing a ready to go
> CMS like Daisy or Lenya or whathaveyou, we should just start right
> there. I mean, install a minimal Cocoon with Linotype at
> cocoon.zones.apache.org and start adding the features we want to it.
>
> As a start I'd volunteer to make Linotype use our SVN repository as its
> backend. I'm sure we can find some space in our repository for that.
My initial idea was very similar (instead of Linotyp I'd use Cocoon Forms with a
widget styled using HTMLArea), see
http://wiki.apache.org/cocoon/CocoonDocumentationSystem. The new flat structure
of documents (every document is a directory with a bunch of documents) was
designed to be easily integrated into a tiny, self-written CMS on top of it.
If I escaped my daily work for a few days I'm sure I could come up with
something useful - I'm sure this is valid for many others in this community too.
>
> This discussion has been gaining so much momentum it's clear that we
> should just start to fucking implement the doko before all this energy
> disperses because of some political standoff or people waiting for each
> other to make the first move.
>
> BTW. Where *is* Linotype? I found this
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-dev&m=110705988801725&w=2 but
> looking at http://simile.mit.edu/ I can't seem to find it. Linotype in
> the 2.1 branch seems to be somewhat broken.
Stefano moved it out of 2.2 and will release (or has already) Linotype 2.
--
Reinhard Pötz Independent Consultant, Trainer & (IT)-Coach
{Software Engineering, Open Source, Web Applications, Apache Cocoon}
web(log): http://www.poetz.cc
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Posted by Unico Hommes <un...@apache.org>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Unico Hommes wrote:
>
>
>>BTW. Where *is* Linotype? I found this
>>http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-dev&m=110705988801725&w=2 but
>> looking at http://simile.mit.edu/ I can't seem to find it. Linotype in
>>the 2.1 branch seems to be somewhat broken.
>
>
> on betaversion.org svn I host the version that runs my blog and the
> latest version, which should be RDF-based and it currently doesn't work.
Does the repository have public access, and if so could you send me a
url so I can take a look? I can't seem to find it.
- --
Unico
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Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Unico Hommes wrote:
> BTW. Where *is* Linotype? I found this
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-dev&m=110705988801725&w=2 but
> looking at http://simile.mit.edu/ I can't seem to find it. Linotype in
> the 2.1 branch seems to be somewhat broken.
on betaversion.org svn I host the version that runs my blog and the
latest version, which should be RDF-based and it currently doesn't work.
Piggy-Bank got in the way ;-)
--
Stefano.
Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Posted by Unico Hommes <un...@apache.org>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Sylvain Wallez wrote:
<snip/>
>
> Yes it *is* about the technology. Why don't we have cool docs? Because
> writing them in XML is a major PITA. That's why I dislike writing docs
> so much.
>
> Give me an htmlarea in a webapp and I'll be happy to dump my brain. And
> we have this today with Cocoon.
That gets me thinking that perhaps, instead of installing a ready to go
CMS like Daisy or Lenya or whathaveyou, we should just start right
there. I mean, install a minimal Cocoon with Linotype at
cocoon.zones.apache.org and start adding the features we want to it.
As a start I'd volunteer to make Linotype use our SVN repository as its
backend. I'm sure we can find some space in our repository for that.
This discussion has been gaining so much momentum it's clear that we
should just start to fucking implement the doko before all this energy
disperses because of some political standoff or people waiting for each
other to make the first move.
BTW. Where *is* Linotype? I found this
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-dev&m=110705988801725&w=2 but
looking at http://simile.mit.edu/ I can't seem to find it. Linotype in
the 2.1 branch seems to be somewhat broken.
- --
Unico
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Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Posted by Sylvain Wallez <sy...@apache.org>.
Antonio Gallardo wrote:
>On Mar, 24 de Mayo de 2005, 15:35, Sylvain Wallez dijo:
>
>
>>Sebastien Arbogast wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>The second important thing I notice in your remark is the argument
>>>that people here know Cocoon but not PHP. But it's exactly our point :
>>>we don't think Cocoon documentation should remain between Cocoon
>>>developers and that's also why we chose a PHP based CMS : because
>>>people are used to it, to its structures, to its customs. Right now
>>>it's much more natural than any Cocoon-based solution. We consider
>>>that documentation should not be written by developers and read by
>>>users... everybody should be able to participate in the same effort
>>>according to its own skills.
>>>
>>>Last but not least, our objective is precisely to make documentation
>>>writing completely independent from the unerlying technologies, so
>>>nobody should need to know neither Cocoon nor PHP to write
>>>documentation (yes a little bit of Cocoon should be useful if one
>>>wants his content to be useful but... you got my point)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>I'm sorry, but this is plain bullshit blabla to ease the pain of not
>>using our own dog food.
>>
>>Cocoon is used by some huge content management systems all over the
>>world. And it wouldn't be suitable to manage its own docs? People will
>>laugh at us and go away.
>>
>>
>
>Sorry to get my spoon in this thread. Sylvain POV is valid. To make the
>things clear, the problem related to cocoon docs was and IS content
>related. No one technology is not going to automatically write the Cocoon
>documentation for us now. We need people that write it.
>
>We have great CMS cocoon based as Apache Lenya or Daisy. Also there is
>Apache Forrest. All of them can manage this task. But again the problem is
>not about the technology.
>
>
Yes it *is* about the technology. Why don't we have cool docs? Because
writing them in XML is a major PITA. That's why I dislike writing docs
so much.
Give me an htmlarea in a webapp and I'll be happy to dump my brain. And
we have this today with Cocoon. Why are there people out there using
Daisy and Lenya in their daily job, why do they pay people to customize
and setup such tools, and why do such tools exist at all if they are so
"limited"?
Sylvain
--
Sylvain Wallez Anyware Technologies
http://apache.org/~sylvain http://anyware-tech.com
Apache Software Foundation Member Research & Technology Director
Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Posted by Antonio Gallardo <ag...@agssa.net>.
On Mar, 24 de Mayo de 2005, 16:09, Upayavira dijo:
> Antonio Gallardo wrote:
>> On Mar, 24 de Mayo de 2005, 15:35, Sylvain Wallez dijo:
>>
>>>Sebastien Arbogast wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>The second important thing I notice in your remark is the argument
>>>>that people here know Cocoon but not PHP. But it's exactly our point :
>>>>we don't think Cocoon documentation should remain between Cocoon
>>>>developers and that's also why we chose a PHP based CMS : because
>>>>people are used to it, to its structures, to its customs. Right now
>>>>it's much more natural than any Cocoon-based solution. We consider
>>>>that documentation should not be written by developers and read by
>>>>users... everybody should be able to participate in the same effort
>>>>according to its own skills.
>>>>
>>>>Last but not least, our objective is precisely to make documentation
>>>>writing completely independent from the unerlying technologies, so
>>>>nobody should need to know neither Cocoon nor PHP to write
>>>>documentation (yes a little bit of Cocoon should be useful if one
>>>>wants his content to be useful but... you got my point)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>I'm sorry, but this is plain bullshit blabla to ease the pain of not
>>>using our own dog food.
>>>
>>>Cocoon is used by some huge content management systems all over the
>>>world. And it wouldn't be suitable to manage its own docs? People will
>>>laugh at us and go away.
>>
>>
>> Sorry to get my spoon in this thread. Sylvain POV is valid. To make the
>> things clear, the problem related to cocoon docs was and IS content
>> related. No one technology is not going to automatically write the
>> Cocoon
>> documentation for us now. We need people that write it.
>>
>> We have great CMS cocoon based as Apache Lenya or Daisy. Also there is
>> Apache Forrest. All of them can manage this task. But again the problem
>> is
>> not about the technology.
>
> That is not correct. To use Forrest, Lenya, Daisy, or Drupal, for that
> matter, you need to be familiar with it. Mark is familiar with Drupal,
> so it is what he used.
>
> As I have said previously, people who want to write docs aren't
> necessarily the same people who want to learn and install (or even
> write) content management systems. If we want people to use a Cocoon
> based CMS, then we need to give them one! I.e. install it somewhere, set
> up the systems so that people who want to write content can just do it,
> without having to learn to use SVN, to download Forrest, etc, etc. No,
> just go to a website, click 'add', and start typing.
I think we crossed out mails. ;-) Please see my just few minutes before
answer related to apache zones? ;-)
For example, lenya already started his own:
http://lenya.zones.apache.org:8888/
Best Regards,
Antoino Gallardo
Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Posted by Upayavira <uv...@odoko.co.uk>.
Antonio Gallardo wrote:
> On Mar, 24 de Mayo de 2005, 15:35, Sylvain Wallez dijo:
>
>>Sebastien Arbogast wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The second important thing I notice in your remark is the argument
>>>that people here know Cocoon but not PHP. But it's exactly our point :
>>>we don't think Cocoon documentation should remain between Cocoon
>>>developers and that's also why we chose a PHP based CMS : because
>>>people are used to it, to its structures, to its customs. Right now
>>>it's much more natural than any Cocoon-based solution. We consider
>>>that documentation should not be written by developers and read by
>>>users... everybody should be able to participate in the same effort
>>>according to its own skills.
>>>
>>>Last but not least, our objective is precisely to make documentation
>>>writing completely independent from the unerlying technologies, so
>>>nobody should need to know neither Cocoon nor PHP to write
>>>documentation (yes a little bit of Cocoon should be useful if one
>>>wants his content to be useful but... you got my point)
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I'm sorry, but this is plain bullshit blabla to ease the pain of not
>>using our own dog food.
>>
>>Cocoon is used by some huge content management systems all over the
>>world. And it wouldn't be suitable to manage its own docs? People will
>>laugh at us and go away.
>
>
> Sorry to get my spoon in this thread. Sylvain POV is valid. To make the
> things clear, the problem related to cocoon docs was and IS content
> related. No one technology is not going to automatically write the Cocoon
> documentation for us now. We need people that write it.
>
> We have great CMS cocoon based as Apache Lenya or Daisy. Also there is
> Apache Forrest. All of them can manage this task. But again the problem is
> not about the technology.
That is not correct. To use Forrest, Lenya, Daisy, or Drupal, for that
matter, you need to be familiar with it. Mark is familiar with Drupal,
so it is what he used.
As I have said previously, people who want to write docs aren't
necessarily the same people who want to learn and install (or even
write) content management systems. If we want people to use a Cocoon
based CMS, then we need to give them one! I.e. install it somewhere, set
up the systems so that people who want to write content can just do it,
without having to learn to use SVN, to download Forrest, etc, etc. No,
just go to a website, click 'add', and start typing.
Regards, Upayavira
Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Posted by Antonio Gallardo <ag...@agssa.net>.
On Mar, 24 de Mayo de 2005, 15:35, Sylvain Wallez dijo:
> Sebastien Arbogast wrote:
>
>>The second important thing I notice in your remark is the argument
>>that people here know Cocoon but not PHP. But it's exactly our point :
>>we don't think Cocoon documentation should remain between Cocoon
>>developers and that's also why we chose a PHP based CMS : because
>>people are used to it, to its structures, to its customs. Right now
>>it's much more natural than any Cocoon-based solution. We consider
>>that documentation should not be written by developers and read by
>>users... everybody should be able to participate in the same effort
>>according to its own skills.
>>
>>Last but not least, our objective is precisely to make documentation
>>writing completely independent from the unerlying technologies, so
>>nobody should need to know neither Cocoon nor PHP to write
>>documentation (yes a little bit of Cocoon should be useful if one
>>wants his content to be useful but... you got my point)
>>
>>
>
> I'm sorry, but this is plain bullshit blabla to ease the pain of not
> using our own dog food.
>
> Cocoon is used by some huge content management systems all over the
> world. And it wouldn't be suitable to manage its own docs? People will
> laugh at us and go away.
Sorry to get my spoon in this thread. Sylvain POV is valid. To make the
things clear, the problem related to cocoon docs was and IS content
related. No one technology is not going to automatically write the Cocoon
documentation for us now. We need people that write it.
We have great CMS cocoon based as Apache Lenya or Daisy. Also there is
Apache Forrest. All of them can manage this task. But again the problem is
not about the technology.
Best Regards,
Antonio Gallardo
Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Posted by Sylvain Wallez <sy...@apache.org>.
Sebastien Arbogast wrote:
>The second important thing I notice in your remark is the argument
>that people here know Cocoon but not PHP. But it's exactly our point :
>we don't think Cocoon documentation should remain between Cocoon
>developers and that's also why we chose a PHP based CMS : because
>people are used to it, to its structures, to its customs. Right now
>it's much more natural than any Cocoon-based solution. We consider
>that documentation should not be written by developers and read by
>users... everybody should be able to participate in the same effort
>according to its own skills.
>
>Last but not least, our objective is precisely to make documentation
>writing completely independent from the unerlying technologies, so
>nobody should need to know neither Cocoon nor PHP to write
>documentation (yes a little bit of Cocoon should be useful if one
>wants his content to be useful but... you got my point)
>
>
I'm sorry, but this is plain bullshit blabla to ease the pain of not
using our own dog food.
Cocoon is used by some huge content management systems all over the
world. And it wouldn't be suitable to manage its own docs? People will
laugh at us and go away.
Sorry, I currently lack time to read this thread in full details, as I'm
currently giving a Cocoon training to people writing a huge
document/content management system... with Cocoon.
Sylvain
--
Sylvain Wallez Anyware Technologies
http://apache.org/~sylvain http://anyware-tech.com
Apache Software Foundation Member Research & Technology Director
Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Posted by Sebastien Arbogast <se...@gmail.com>.
2005/5/24, Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>:
> Sebastien Arbogast wrote:
> > 2005/5/24, Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>:
> >
>
> ...
>
> >>It is called integration.
>
> ...
>
> > OK I'm sorry Ross. I'm really sorry. You're right I completely missed
> > your point and I apologize for that.
>
> No harm done, quite the opposite in fact, your post made me consider
> what aspects of PlanetCocoon I agree with and what aspects I do not
> agree with. It also made me question whether my boundaries are in the
> right places.
>
> Having considered your points about "self-reliance" I would like to make
> it clear that I feel it is a mistake to build a Cocoon documentation
> solution that is based on anything other than Cocoon. This has nothing
> to do with "self-reliance" in the way you describe it, it is a rel;iance
> on the Cocoon community, because, at the end of the day, that is all
> Cocoon has. It is to do with drawing on the strengths of that community.
> Everyone here knows Cocoon, most do not know Drupal or PHP.
Alright then... the truth is that right now we're running out of time
and as we stated it at the beginning of our collaboration, we would
have been happy to build our solution on top of a Cocoon-based
solution. But as Mark had already realized it, Cocoon-based CMS's are
far too limited right now compared to what we can provide with Drupal
in terms of powerful features. No offense for Daisy of Myotis guys,
it's just a matter of time, Drupal and PHP CMS's are much older and
hence mature in terms of functionalities.
The second important thing I notice in your remark is the argument
that people here know Cocoon but not PHP. But it's exactly our point :
we don't think Cocoon documentation should remain between Cocoon
developers and that's also why we chose a PHP based CMS : because
people are used to it, to its structures, to its customs. Right now
it's much more natural than any Cocoon-based solution. We consider
that documentation should not be written by developers and read by
users... everybody should be able to participate in the same effort
according to its own skills.
Last but not least, our objective is precisely to make documentation
writing completely independent from the unerlying technologies, so
nobody should need to know neither Cocoon nor PHP to write
documentation (yes a little bit of Cocoon should be useful if one
wants his content to be useful but... you got my point)
> However, PlanetCocoon clearly has some effort going into it, and some of
> your ideas are excellent. It would be a real shame if your enthusiasm
> was dampened by what you perceive as "self-reliance".
Thanks ;-)
> It is my hope that once you have shown how valuable some of your ideas
> are then attention within the Cocoon community will turn towards
> embracing the some of the solutions you are designing and implementing
> them within a Cocoon based application. In other words I see your
> current Drupal implementation as a precursor to a killer Cocoon based
> application.
Maybe... I'm currently working on some sort of Cocoon-based CMS right
now so maybe one day I'll be able to derive something from it and it
will provide all the powerful features of Drupal. But that day Daisy
or Myotis might be much more advanced than my solution so... the thing
is that... as I said before, I think we're running out of time so
Drupal remains the best immediate and powerful enough solution to get
things done.
> In the meantime I will try to help build the necessary plugins to
> Forrest to enable your work to be brought into the official Cocoon docs
> with minimal effort (and vice-versa if the Cocoon community wish that to
> be so).
Thx. BTW we have started to talk about the way we could store our
documentation content. And we have come up with a few issues.. or as
Mark says.. food for thought!
Maybe we could discuss that with you since you seem to have experience
in that topic.
I'll start a discussion about that specific topic on Planet Cocoon and
keep you in touch.
--
Sebastien ARBOGAST
Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
Sebastien Arbogast wrote:
> 2005/5/24, Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>:
>
...
>>It is called integration.
...
> OK I'm sorry Ross. I'm really sorry. You're right I completely missed
> your point and I apologize for that.
No harm done, quite the opposite in fact, your post made me consider
what aspects of PlanetCocoon I agree with and what aspects I do not
agree with. It also made me question whether my boundaries are in the
right places.
Having considered your points about "self-reliance" I would like to make
it clear that I feel it is a mistake to build a Cocoon documentation
solution that is based on anything other than Cocoon. This has nothing
to do with "self-reliance" in the way you describe it, it is a rel;iance
on the Cocoon community, because, at the end of the day, that is all
Cocoon has. It is to do with drawing on the strengths of that community.
Everyone here knows Cocoon, most do not know Drupal or PHP.
However, PlanetCocoon clearly has some effort going into it, and some of
your ideas are excellent. It would be a real shame if your enthusiasm
was dampened by what you perceive as "self-reliance".
It is my hope that once you have shown how valuable some of your ideas
are then attention within the Cocoon community will turn towards
embracing the some of the solutions you are designing and implementing
them within a Cocoon based application. In other words I see your
current Drupal implementation as a precursor to a killer Cocoon based
application.
In the meantime I will try to help build the necessary plugins to
Forrest to enable your work to be brought into the official Cocoon docs
with minimal effort (and vice-versa if the Cocoon community wish that to
be so).
Ross
Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Posted by Sebastien Arbogast <se...@gmail.com>.
2005/5/24, Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>:
> Sebastien Arbogast wrote:
> > 2005/5/24, Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>:
> >
> >>Mark Leicester wrote:
> >>
> >>>Hello Bertrand,
> >>>
> >>>On 24 May 2005, at 12:20, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Le 24 mai 05, à 11:36, Ross Gardler a écrit :
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>...For example:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>http://www.planetcocoon.com/node/1209
> >>>>>
> >>>>>is
> >>>>>
> >>>>>http://cocoon.apache.org/2.1/tutorial/tutorial-generator.html
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Which I find very disappointing: I fail to see the point of copying
> >>>>content from our docs on other websites.
> >>
> >>...
> >>
> >>
> >>>To kick this debate off, let's firstly define the problem. Are we
> >>>concerned with the problems that arise from forking documentation? Or,
> >>>are we trying to restrict the numbers of sources of information?
> >>
> >>I think would speak for everyone when I say the concern is in forking
> >>the documentation effort.
> >>
> >>
> >>>A technical solution might be to offer RSS feeds from the Apache site.
> >>>Cocoon distributions and satellite sites like Planet Cocoon could then
> >>>"phone home" for the latest documentation.
> >>
> >>Which is exactly why I have invited you over to the Forrest dev list so
> >>that we can help you build a plugin that will enable you to achieve your
> >>goals *without* forking the documentation. Forrest is currently the
> >>chosen documentation platform here. One of its great strengths is the
> >>ability to bring together documentation from various sources.
> >>
> >>I'm not at all sure if the Cocoon project will want to go this way, but
> >>I propose we create a solution, demonstrate it and then ask for comments
> >>and suggestions here.
> >>
> ...
>
> > And now you seem to want to redirect all the output of
> > PlanetCocoon to Forrest just to be sure it remains the only
> > documentation channel.
>
> You have completely missed my point. I think you ought to read that the
> above again. I am offering to assist Mark in what he says he wants to
> do, just to be clear I will quote Mark again (from above):
>
> "A technical solution might be to offer RSS feeds from the Apache site.
> Cocoon distributions and satellite sites like Planet Cocoon could then
> "phone home" for the latest documentation."
>
> That is about making official Cocoon docs available to PlanetCocoon in a
> form that prevents the need to fork them.
>
> In a previous mail (in this same thread) I offered to create a plugin
> for Forrest that would allow docs on PlanetCocoon to be seemlesly
> incorporated into the official Cocoon docs. This offer was made because
> the PlanetCocoon home page says "Every effort will be made to ensure
> that information generated on Planet Cocoon will end up in the official
> documentation."
>
> I'm only trying to make it possible for PlantCocoon to do what it wants
> to do with the minimum of effort.
>
> > And there are things that Forrest
> > doesn't provide and that we intend to provide on Planet Cocoon. And I
> > really don't see the problem with that.
>
> That is not the problem as I percieve it. The problem is the forking of
> the *existing* documentation. Forking is *bad* for any project.
>
> My proposal is to enable PlanetCocoon to continue its work without
> forking the existing work *and* achieving its goal of donating valuable
> content back to the Cocoon project.
>
> > What I mean is that (and it's my personal opinion) the way I see it,
> > Forrest will be one possible output for our documentation and we will
> > do whatever it takes to make it compatible.
>
> Nobody is objecting to that. I am one person offering to assist with
> your integration into the existing Forrest generated docs and the
> integration of the existing Forrest docs into your site. I fail to see
> what your problem is.
>
> > But if Forrest remains the only output,
> > if we have to limit ourselves technically to fit in the frame of
> > Forrest and the "everything Apache" rule of thumb, it's not
> > interesting for me.
>
> Please read my earlier post again in which I say that I am not asking
> you to create a "Forrest compatible" format, I am asking for either a
> valide XML feed or a (X)HTML document without the navigation and other
> decoration. At no point have I, or anyone else, said you can't do what
> you are doing.
>
> There is resistence to forking the documentation effort (meaning taking
> the existing documents and community resources and reproducing them
> elsewhere under a different banner). This particular thread is about
> enabling PlanetCocoon to proceed with its admirable efforts to
> regenerate the documentation effort whilst preventing the need to fork
> existing work.
>
> It is called integration.
>
> Ross
OK I'm sorry Ross. I'm really sorry. You're right I completely missed
your point and I apologize for that. It's just that we've encountered
so much resistance at the beginning that I've come to be a little
aggressive (especially when I wake up in the morning ;-P) and let my
young impulsiveness speak on behalf of myself.
I hadn't understood "forking" in the way you do and I eventually like
the way you see things. I'm sure I'm speaking for both of us (Mark and
I) when I say we'll be glad to work with you and *integrate* your
offer.
People's support, Cocoon PMC attention, Forrest guys interest and
things getting done on Planet Cocoon... everything seems to take its
shape and it's really exciting :-)
--
Sebastien ARBOGAST
Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Posted by Mark Leicester <ma...@efurbishment.com>.
Hi Ross,
Thank you very much for you offer, and for your interest in helping us
achieve our goals. I shall renew my membership of the Forrest mailing
list and we can continue this potentially very fruitful discussion
there. Sébastien, it sounds like Ross is more than willing to help us
achieve the goals (#3 and #5 at least) that you outlined in your post
here: http://www.planetcocoon.com/node/1858
Best regards,
Mark
On 24 May 2005, at 16:15, Ross Gardler wrote:
> Sebastien Arbogast wrote:
>> 2005/5/24, Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>:
>>> Mark Leicester wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello Bertrand,
>>>>
>>>> On 24 May 2005, at 12:20, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Le 24 mai 05, à 11:36, Ross Gardler a écrit :
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> ...For example:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.planetcocoon.com/node/1209
>>>>>>
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://cocoon.apache.org/2.1/tutorial/tutorial-generator.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Which I find very disappointing: I fail to see the point of copying
>>>>> content from our docs on other websites.
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>>
>>>> To kick this debate off, let's firstly define the problem. Are we
>>>> concerned with the problems that arise from forking documentation?
>>>> Or,
>>>> are we trying to restrict the numbers of sources of information?
>>>
>>> I think would speak for everyone when I say the concern is in forking
>>> the documentation effort.
>>>
>>>
>>>> A technical solution might be to offer RSS feeds from the Apache
>>>> site.
>>>> Cocoon distributions and satellite sites like Planet Cocoon could
>>>> then
>>>> "phone home" for the latest documentation.
>>>
>>> Which is exactly why I have invited you over to the Forrest dev list
>>> so
>>> that we can help you build a plugin that will enable you to achieve
>>> your
>>> goals *without* forking the documentation. Forrest is currently the
>>> chosen documentation platform here. One of its great strengths is the
>>> ability to bring together documentation from various sources.
>>>
>>> I'm not at all sure if the Cocoon project will want to go this way,
>>> but
>>> I propose we create a solution, demonstrate it and then ask for
>>> comments
>>> and suggestions here.
>>>
> ...
>
>> And now you seem to want to redirect all the output of
>> PlanetCocoon to Forrest just to be sure it remains the only
>> documentation channel.
>
> You have completely missed my point. I think you ought to read that
> the above again. I am offering to assist Mark in what he says he wants
> to do, just to be clear I will quote Mark again (from above):
>
> "A technical solution might be to offer RSS feeds from the Apache site.
> Cocoon distributions and satellite sites like Planet Cocoon could then
> "phone home" for the latest documentation."
>
> That is about making official Cocoon docs available to PlanetCocoon in
> a form that prevents the need to fork them.
>
> In a previous mail (in this same thread) I offered to create a plugin
> for Forrest that would allow docs on PlanetCocoon to be seemlesly
> incorporated into the official Cocoon docs. This offer was made
> because the PlanetCocoon home page says "Every effort will be made to
> ensure that information generated on Planet Cocoon will end up in the
> official documentation."
>
> I'm only trying to make it possible for PlantCocoon to do what it
> wants to do with the minimum of effort.
>
>> And there are things that Forrest
>> doesn't provide and that we intend to provide on Planet Cocoon. And I
>> really don't see the problem with that.
>
> That is not the problem as I percieve it. The problem is the forking
> of the *existing* documentation. Forking is *bad* for any project.
>
> My proposal is to enable PlanetCocoon to continue its work without
> forking the existing work *and* achieving its goal of donating
> valuable content back to the Cocoon project.
>
>> What I mean is that (and it's my personal opinion) the way I see it,
>> Forrest will be one possible output for our documentation and we will
>> do whatever it takes to make it compatible.
>
> Nobody is objecting to that. I am one person offering to assist with
> your integration into the existing Forrest generated docs and the
> integration of the existing Forrest docs into your site. I fail to see
> what your problem is.
>
> > But if Forrest remains the only output,
>> if we have to limit ourselves technically to fit in the frame of
>> Forrest and the "everything Apache" rule of thumb, it's not
>> interesting for me.
>
> Please read my earlier post again in which I say that I am not asking
> you to create a "Forrest compatible" format, I am asking for either a
> valide XML feed or a (X)HTML document without the navigation and other
> decoration. At no point have I, or anyone else, said you can't do what
> you are doing.
>
> There is resistence to forking the documentation effort (meaning
> taking the existing documents and community resources and reproducing
> them elsewhere under a different banner). This particular thread is
> about enabling PlanetCocoon to proceed with its admirable efforts to
> regenerate the documentation effort whilst preventing the need to fork
> existing work.
>
> It is called integration.
>
> Ross
>
> Ross
>
Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
Sebastien Arbogast wrote:
> 2005/5/24, Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>:
>
>>Mark Leicester wrote:
>>
>>>Hello Bertrand,
>>>
>>>On 24 May 2005, at 12:20, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Le 24 mai 05, à 11:36, Ross Gardler a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>...For example:
>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.planetcocoon.com/node/1209
>>>>>
>>>>>is
>>>>>
>>>>>http://cocoon.apache.org/2.1/tutorial/tutorial-generator.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Which I find very disappointing: I fail to see the point of copying
>>>>content from our docs on other websites.
>>
>>...
>>
>>
>>>To kick this debate off, let's firstly define the problem. Are we
>>>concerned with the problems that arise from forking documentation? Or,
>>>are we trying to restrict the numbers of sources of information?
>>
>>I think would speak for everyone when I say the concern is in forking
>>the documentation effort.
>>
>>
>>>A technical solution might be to offer RSS feeds from the Apache site.
>>>Cocoon distributions and satellite sites like Planet Cocoon could then
>>>"phone home" for the latest documentation.
>>
>>Which is exactly why I have invited you over to the Forrest dev list so
>>that we can help you build a plugin that will enable you to achieve your
>>goals *without* forking the documentation. Forrest is currently the
>>chosen documentation platform here. One of its great strengths is the
>>ability to bring together documentation from various sources.
>>
>>I'm not at all sure if the Cocoon project will want to go this way, but
>>I propose we create a solution, demonstrate it and then ask for comments
>>and suggestions here.
>>
...
> And now you seem to want to redirect all the output of
> PlanetCocoon to Forrest just to be sure it remains the only
> documentation channel.
You have completely missed my point. I think you ought to read that the
above again. I am offering to assist Mark in what he says he wants to
do, just to be clear I will quote Mark again (from above):
"A technical solution might be to offer RSS feeds from the Apache site.
Cocoon distributions and satellite sites like Planet Cocoon could then
"phone home" for the latest documentation."
That is about making official Cocoon docs available to PlanetCocoon in a
form that prevents the need to fork them.
In a previous mail (in this same thread) I offered to create a plugin
for Forrest that would allow docs on PlanetCocoon to be seemlesly
incorporated into the official Cocoon docs. This offer was made because
the PlanetCocoon home page says "Every effort will be made to ensure
that information generated on Planet Cocoon will end up in the official
documentation."
I'm only trying to make it possible for PlantCocoon to do what it wants
to do with the minimum of effort.
> And there are things that Forrest
> doesn't provide and that we intend to provide on Planet Cocoon. And I
> really don't see the problem with that.
That is not the problem as I percieve it. The problem is the forking of
the *existing* documentation. Forking is *bad* for any project.
My proposal is to enable PlanetCocoon to continue its work without
forking the existing work *and* achieving its goal of donating valuable
content back to the Cocoon project.
> What I mean is that (and it's my personal opinion) the way I see it,
> Forrest will be one possible output for our documentation and we will
> do whatever it takes to make it compatible.
Nobody is objecting to that. I am one person offering to assist with
your integration into the existing Forrest generated docs and the
integration of the existing Forrest docs into your site. I fail to see
what your problem is.
> But if Forrest remains the only output,
> if we have to limit ourselves technically to fit in the frame of
> Forrest and the "everything Apache" rule of thumb, it's not
> interesting for me.
Please read my earlier post again in which I say that I am not asking
you to create a "Forrest compatible" format, I am asking for either a
valide XML feed or a (X)HTML document without the navigation and other
decoration. At no point have I, or anyone else, said you can't do what
you are doing.
There is resistence to forking the documentation effort (meaning taking
the existing documents and community resources and reproducing them
elsewhere under a different banner). This particular thread is about
enabling PlanetCocoon to proceed with its admirable efforts to
regenerate the documentation effort whilst preventing the need to fork
existing work.
It is called integration.
Ross
Ross
Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Posted by Sebastien Arbogast <se...@gmail.com>.
2005/5/24, Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>:
> Mark Leicester wrote:
> > Hello Bertrand,
> >
> > On 24 May 2005, at 12:20, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> >
> >> Le 24 mai 05, à 11:36, Ross Gardler a écrit :
> >>
> >>> ...For example:
> >>>
> >>> http://www.planetcocoon.com/node/1209
> >>>
> >>> is
> >>>
> >>> http://cocoon.apache.org/2.1/tutorial/tutorial-generator.html
> >>
> >>
> >> Which I find very disappointing: I fail to see the point of copying
> >> content from our docs on other websites.
>
> ...
>
> > To kick this debate off, let's firstly define the problem. Are we
> > concerned with the problems that arise from forking documentation? Or,
> > are we trying to restrict the numbers of sources of information?
>
> I think would speak for everyone when I say the concern is in forking
> the documentation effort.
>
> > A technical solution might be to offer RSS feeds from the Apache site.
> > Cocoon distributions and satellite sites like Planet Cocoon could then
> > "phone home" for the latest documentation.
>
> Which is exactly why I have invited you over to the Forrest dev list so
> that we can help you build a plugin that will enable you to achieve your
> goals *without* forking the documentation. Forrest is currently the
> chosen documentation platform here. One of its great strengths is the
> ability to bring together documentation from various sources.
>
> I'm not at all sure if the Cocoon project will want to go this way, but
> I propose we create a solution, demonstrate it and then ask for comments
> and suggestions here.
>
> Ross
I hate sleeping ! It keeps me out of the loop for too long ! :-P Anyway...
There's just something I would like to precise relative to Ross's
concerns. I've been following The Apache Foundation and its projects
for quite a while now, from an observer point of view, and I've come
to notice a very bad habit : what I would call (I don't know if it's
correct English) self-closure. It seems that everything has to be
Apache in more and more Apache projects. Continuum developed instead
of improving Cruisecontrol integration for Maven. Now this new Harmony
thing. And now you seem to want to redirect all the output of
PlanetCocoon to Forrest just to be sure it remains the only
documentation channel.
But the truth is that I don't agree with this self-sufficience
approach because, even if I'm aware of the fact that it prevents you
guys from being dependant on other external groups and projects, it's
so limited.
Forrest is limited : it's cool, it's normalized, it's coherent but
it's only one form of documentation. And there are things that Forrest
doesn't provide and that we intend to provide on Planet Cocoon. And I
really don't see the problem with that. On the contrary it's one of
the beauties of Open Source development. Look at PHP : it has its own
very powerful documentation platform but there are many others, with
different features, different languages, different goals.
What I mean is that (and it's my personal opinion) the way I see it,
Forrest will be one possible output for our documentation and we will
do whatever it takes to make it compatible. And we'll do whatever it
takes to do things the right way, to respect licenses and
acknowledgements of any sort. But if Forrest remains the only output,
if we have to limit ourselves technically to fit in the frame of
Forrest and the "everything Apache" rule of thumb, it's not
interesting for me. What I like in computer science in general and in
OSS developement in particular, it's integration, "raising on your
peer's shoulders".
Of course this opinion is a caricature. I'm aware of some initiatives
willing to integrate external technologies like the recent OSGi
discussion for example. But I think you get MY point (and I insist on
"MY" because I don't want to involve Mark in that opinion) : the
reason why we chose to use Drupal instead of some Cocoon-based CMS,
the reason why I would personally prefer we create our own document
storage format to fit our needs accurately rather than some
Forrest-oriented solution (remaining Forrest-convertible of course),
the reason why I think Planet Cocoon is a wonderful initiative, it's
because it's another complement, another door opened on Cocoon's
universe.
This is not a troll. This is not a provocation of any sort. I just
wanted to precise the way I see things and I'd be happy to discuss
that in a constructive debate.
Cheers.
--
Sebastien ARBOGAST
Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
Mark Leicester wrote:
> Hello Bertrand,
>
> On 24 May 2005, at 12:20, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>
>> Le 24 mai 05, à 11:36, Ross Gardler a écrit :
>>
>>> ...For example:
>>>
>>> http://www.planetcocoon.com/node/1209
>>>
>>> is
>>>
>>> http://cocoon.apache.org/2.1/tutorial/tutorial-generator.html
>>
>>
>> Which I find very disappointing: I fail to see the point of copying
>> content from our docs on other websites.
...
> To kick this debate off, let's firstly define the problem. Are we
> concerned with the problems that arise from forking documentation? Or,
> are we trying to restrict the numbers of sources of information?
I think would speak for everyone when I say the concern is in forking
the documentation effort.
> A technical solution might be to offer RSS feeds from the Apache site.
> Cocoon distributions and satellite sites like Planet Cocoon could then
> "phone home" for the latest documentation.
Which is exactly why I have invited you over to the Forrest dev list so
that we can help you build a plugin that will enable you to achieve your
goals *without* forking the documentation. Forrest is currently the
chosen documentation platform here. One of its great strengths is the
ability to bring together documentation from various sources.
I'm not at all sure if the Cocoon project will want to go this way, but
I propose we create a solution, demonstrate it and then ask for comments
and suggestions here.
Ross
Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Posted by Mark Leicester <ma...@efurbishment.com>.
Hello Bertrand,
On 24 May 2005, at 12:20, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> Le 24 mai 05, à 11:36, Ross Gardler a écrit :
>
>> ...For example:
>>
>> http://www.planetcocoon.com/node/1209
>>
>> is
>>
>> http://cocoon.apache.org/2.1/tutorial/tutorial-generator.html
>
> Which I find very disappointing: I fail to see the point of copying
> content from our docs on other websites.
Straight duplication is not our goal. Wherever duplication occurs, the
intention is to add value. In this specific example I copied Geoff's
document for a few reasons:
1. to illustrate that comments made in the mailing list made Sarah
Windler (who used, and praised the tutorial) could be visible in closer
proximity to the subject matter, perhaps encouraging further comment;
2. that we can use folksonomy to tag documentation like any other
material;
3. that the content might be better reorganised in book form (more to
come on this).
I agree that straight duplication achieves nothing. It might be useful
for us to debate whether the additional value I perceive that Planet
Cocoon adds, is worth the trade-off (duplication) required to achieve
it.
To kick this debate off, let's firstly define the problem. Are we
concerned with the problems that arise from forking documentation? Or,
are we trying to restrict the numbers of sources of information?
A technical solution might be to offer RSS feeds from the Apache site.
Cocoon distributions and satellite sites like Planet Cocoon could then
"phone home" for the latest documentation.
I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts.
Regards!
Mark
Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Le 24 mai 05, à 11:36, Ross Gardler a écrit :
> ...For example:
>
> http://www.planetcocoon.com/node/1209
>
> is
>
> http://cocoon.apache.org/2.1/tutorial/tutorial-generator.html
Which I find very disappointing: I fail to see the point of copying
content from our docs on other websites.
If the goal of planetcocoon is really to create new content (which is
laudable), please don't create more confusion by having multiple copies
of stuff all over the place. This is definitely counterproductive.
-Bertrand
Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
Sebastien Arbogast wrote:
> 2005/5/23, Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>:
>
>>I can't find any copyright or license information on the planetcocoon
>>site. Can you please point me at the relevant page.
>
>
> Actually so far there is no such thing. As it is said in our
> disclaimer, "Planet Cocoon is an unofficial experiment in online
> developer community, not endorsed in any way by the Cocoon PMC" so
> there is currently no license or copyright of any sort BUT... you
> point out something very interesting because there is some original
> content there and we should begin to worry about some license.
>
>
>>I'm concerned as much of the documentation content appears to be direct
>>duplicates of materials in Cocoons official documentation or mailing
>>lists but I cannot find the required acknowledgement to Apache Software
>>Foundation. I know you are working closely with the Cocoon community so
>>I am sure this is only an oversight (possibly on my part).
>
>
> There is absolutely no duplicate of original documentation (not that I
> know of at least... Maaaark !!! You duplicated ??? Bad boy !).
For example:
http://www.planetcocoon.com/node/1209
is
http://cocoon.apache.org/2.1/tutorial/tutorial-generator.html
You are correct about mailing lists being archived, but the difference
between your archive and other archives is yours gives the illusion of
being "two way" because it has a forum. There is at least one user who
thought they were posting to the users list by posting on your site.
I should point out, for the benifit of Cocoon devs, that the
planetcocoon admins did cross post the users question to the list
explaining that it was not yet a two way facility and advising the user
to subscribe to the list.
>>My reason for asking both questins is that I'd like to consider adding
>>an input plugin to Forrest in order to assist in your stated objective
>>of "Every effort will be made to ensure that information generated on
>>Planet Cocoon will end up in the official documentation" (quote from
>>your home page).
>
>
> It's very kind of you but we have just begun discussing the storage
> format we will choose for our documents in order to suit all the
> wonderful features we want to integrate, while keeping docs compatible
> with Forrest formats. So it's far from being determined yet. It should
> be in the next few weeks or so.
Don't worry about compatible formats All Forrest needs is a way to get
the documents without the navigation, Forrest will do any necessary
conversions in format. All we need is an XML or an (X)HTML document.
Ross
Re: Planet Cocoon license and reuse of docs
Posted by Sebastien Arbogast <se...@gmail.com>.
2005/5/23, Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>:
> I can't find any copyright or license information on the planetcocoon
> site. Can you please point me at the relevant page.
Actually so far there is no such thing. As it is said in our
disclaimer, "Planet Cocoon is an unofficial experiment in online
developer community, not endorsed in any way by the Cocoon PMC" so
there is currently no license or copyright of any sort BUT... you
point out something very interesting because there is some original
content there and we should begin to worry about some license.
> I'm concerned as much of the documentation content appears to be direct
> duplicates of materials in Cocoons official documentation or mailing
> lists but I cannot find the required acknowledgement to Apache Software
> Foundation. I know you are working closely with the Cocoon community so
> I am sure this is only an oversight (possibly on my part).
There is absolutely no duplicate of original documentation (not that I
know of at least... Maaaark !!! You duplicated ??? Bad boy !). The
only thing we duplicate for now is the content of mailing lists but
there are several archives doing that, especially a blog fashioned one
I can't remember the address. Anyway for now you're right, there is no
official written acknowledgement from the Apache Foundation or Cocoon
PMC. But as you say, we are working closely with PMC members to keep
things right and for example, the disclaimer was added following one
of their requests.
> In addition, can you tell me if Drupal is able to serve nodes as
> unprocessed content. That is, can I retrieve a version of a node that
> has only the content, no navigation or other such decoration.
That I don't know. Mark is the Drupal master !
> If it is possible to do this, what license will your own original
> matrials be released under?
Planet Cocoon is barely a few weeks old and it's still experimental,
but this licensing question should definitely be part of the future
discussions with PMC members. BTW if Bertrand, or Sylvain, or Stefano
or any other PMC member wants to intervene, feel free to do so guys.
> My reason for asking both questins is that I'd like to consider adding
> an input plugin to Forrest in order to assist in your stated objective
> of "Every effort will be made to ensure that information generated on
> Planet Cocoon will end up in the official documentation" (quote from
> your home page).
It's very kind of you but we have just begun discussing the storage
format we will choose for our documents in order to suit all the
wonderful features we want to integrate, while keeping docs compatible
with Forrest formats. So it's far from being determined yet. It should
be in the next few weeks or so.
Thank you very much for your interest. We'll remember your offer and
keep you in touch as soon as we have something more concrete.
--
Sebastien ARBOGAST