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Posted to general@gump.apache.org by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org> on 2004/03/24 01:42:57 UTC
fog factor
Question for a gump newbi.
As the fog clears - you would anticipate a fog factor approaching zero.
In the context of gump - is zero fog a good thing? Summary - I don't
understand the fog factor index - can anyone explain it or point me to
relevant documentation?
Cheers, Steve.
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Re: fog factor
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Stephen McConnell wrote:
> Adam Jack wrote:
>
>>> If that's is a correct (reasonable) assumption - is this something I
>>> should post to JIRA?
>>
>>
>>
>> Please do add all comments you have on FOG to JIRA at:
>>
>> http://nagoya.apache.org/jira/secure/ViewIssue.jspa?key=GUMP-21
>
>
> Done!
And any admin - please feel free to substitute factory with factor.
:-)
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Re: fog factor
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Adam Jack wrote:
>>If that's is a correct (reasonable) assumption - is this something I
>>should post to JIRA?
>
>
> Please do add all comments you have on FOG to JIRA at:
>
> http://nagoya.apache.org/jira/secure/ViewIssue.jspa?key=GUMP-21
Done!
Cheers, Steve.
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Re: fog factor
Posted by Adam Jack <aj...@TrySybase.com>.
> If that's is a correct (reasonable) assumption - is this something I
> should post to JIRA?
Please do add all comments you have on FOG to JIRA at:
http://nagoya.apache.org/jira/secure/ViewIssue.jspa?key=GUMP-21
regards
Adam
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Re: fog factor
Posted by Leo Simons <ls...@jicarilla.org>.
== Getting some clarity into a clouded issue... ==
The amount of debate I've seen about the fog factor by far outweighs the
amount of debate about other stuff that's probably more important. It
seems to be a controversial issue (or it could be a bikeshed argument,
but I don't believe it is).
As to Nick's argument, I'll assert that we don't know what exactly it is
that FOG measures. Which would be required before improving things.
We can't even measure whether FOG is "causing more harm than good". But
we can measure that it is controversial (because there's lots of talk
about it).
I think it's best if gump is not too controversial, so I agree with
Stefano that we should disable fog factoring (or publishing of it at
least) for now.
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cheers,
- Leo Simons
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Re: fog factor
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> FoG stands for Friend of Gump, not for "fog" as in the white stuff
> suspended in the air that doesn't allow you to see thru.
What about a NGAD factor?
Stephen.
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Re: fog factor
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.
On Wed, 24 Mar 2004, Adam Jack wrote:
> > Adam, I think we should get rid of FoG entirely until we have a better
> > solution. It is causing more harm than good.
IMHO, you just need to ensure that people understand what FoG means. The
acronym by itself is pure confusion, so I'd suggest either picking another
one or avoiding an acronym all together.
--
Martin Cooper
>
> What is harm and what is refining discussion? If we remove it, what
> incentive do folks have to contribute improvements?
>
> I'll do whatever the group determines, but first teach me OSS 101 on such
> matters, please. Is this too bad to tolerate, or just bad enough to entice?
>
> Input?
>
> regards
>
> Adam
>
>
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Re: fog factor
Posted by Nick Chalko <ni...@chalko.com>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
>
> We should design Gump keeping in mind that it should be silly to infer
> any judgement of quality out of the data.
>
> Our goal is not to measure, it's to help out the development process.
>
Some people argue you can't improve what you can't measure.
The counter point is whatever you measure you will improve, so make sure
you measure the right thing.
R,
Nick
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Re: fog factor
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Adam Jack wrote:
>>Adam, I think we should get rid of FoG entirely until we have a better
>>solution. It is causing more harm than good.
>
>
> What is harm and what is refining discussion? If we remove it, what
> incentive do folks have to contribute improvements?
The only incentive I see is an escalation of people that will tune the
FoG metric so that their project show up on top.
A measure, believe it or not, is a thing that introduces scarcity and
anything that is scarce will trigger desires of possession from some people.
> I'll do whatever the group determines, but first teach me OSS 101 on such
> matters, please. Is this too bad to tolerate, or just bad enough to entice?
It is not bad, it's just asking for trouble.
We should design Gump keeping in mind that it should be silly to infer
any judgement of quality out of the data.
Our goal is not to measure, it's to help out the development process.
--
Stefano.
Re: fog factor
Posted by Adam Jack <aj...@TrySybase.com>.
> Adam, I think we should get rid of FoG entirely until we have a better
> solution. It is causing more harm than good.
What is harm and what is refining discussion? If we remove it, what
incentive do folks have to contribute improvements?
I'll do whatever the group determines, but first teach me OSS 101 on such
matters, please. Is this too bad to tolerate, or just bad enough to entice?
Input?
regards
Adam
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Re: fog factor
Posted by Adam Jack <aj...@TrySybase.com>.
Michael Davey:
> > Adam, I think we should get rid of FoG entirely until we have a better
> > solution. It is causing more harm than good.
>
> Don't get rid of it. I'd like to sugegst two simple changes that I think
> would really help the community out:
>
> * Rename it to "Friendship factor"
> * Provide a link to a page that describes the metric, *every* place
> the metric appears.
FOG Factor always appealed to me, in part due to familiarity & 'sound', but
perhaps too much of that is due to it's re-use of the name of a written text
clarity algorithm. Much as I think we ought use 'FOG Factor' in some places,
I do think we ought link it back to a definition page, as best we can, and
also use 'Friendship Factor' at times where space is available.
I've added this posting to JIRA.
regards,
Adam
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Re: fog factor
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Michael Davey wrote:
> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
>>
>> Adam, I think we should get rid of FoG entirely until we have a better
>> solution. It is causing more harm than good.
>
>
> Don't get rid of it. I'd like to sugegst two simple changes that I think
> would really help the community out:
>
> * Rename it to "Friendship factor"
> * Provide a link to a page that describes the metric, *every* place
> the metric appears.
>
No, direct metric = potential friction.
No metric, no friction.
--
Stefano.
Re: fog factor
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Michael Davey wrote:
> Don't get rid of it. I'd like to sugegst two simple changes that I think
> would really help the community out:
>
> * Rename it to "Friendship factor"
> * Provide a link to a page that describes the metric, *every* place
> the metric appears.
+1
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Re: fog factor
Posted by Michael Davey <Mi...@coderage.org>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
> Adam, I think we should get rid of FoG entirely until we have a better
> solution. It is causing more harm than good.
Don't get rid of it. I'd like to sugegst two simple changes that I think
would really help the community out:
* Rename it to "Friendship factor"
* Provide a link to a page that describes the metric, *every* place
the metric appears.
--
Michael
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Re: fog factor
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Stephen McConnell wrote:
> Adam Jack wrote:
>
>>> Question for a gump newbi.
>>>
>>> As the fog clears - you would anticipate a fog factor approaching zero.
>>
>>
>>
>> Maybe it should, a boundary value is more comparable.
>>
>>
>>> In the context of gump - is zero fog a good thing? Summary - I don't
>>> understand the fog factor index - can anyone explain it or point me to
>>> relevant documentation?
>>
>>
>>
>> For today, quite the reverse. The larger the better.
>>
>> Gump does what Gump does, and some projects support that better than
>> others.
>> FOG is an attempt to translate that into something
>> simple/comparable/tangible so folks can get a quick insight into
>> something's
>> suitability as a Gump dependency for their project. [It doesn't today
>> directly translate to any other project 'quality' metric, but it might
>> one
>> day.]
>
>
> I had a hunch that this was the case - so current-fog ~= clarity and as
> such real fog may perhaps be better defined as
>
> real-fog = 1/(current-fog)
>
> If that's is a correct (reasonable) assumption - is this something I
> should post to JIRA?
FoG stands for Friend of Gump, not for "fog" as in the white stuff
suspended in the air that doesn't allow you to see thru.
Adam, I think we should get rid of FoG entirely until we have a better
solution. It is causing more harm than good.
--
Stefano.
Re: fog factor
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Adam Jack wrote:
>>Question for a gump newbi.
>>
>>As the fog clears - you would anticipate a fog factor approaching zero.
>
>
> Maybe it should, a boundary value is more comparable.
>
>
>> In the context of gump - is zero fog a good thing? Summary - I don't
>>understand the fog factor index - can anyone explain it or point me to
>>relevant documentation?
>
>
> For today, quite the reverse. The larger the better.
>
> Gump does what Gump does, and some projects support that better than others.
> FOG is an attempt to translate that into something
> simple/comparable/tangible so folks can get a quick insight into something's
> suitability as a Gump dependency for their project. [It doesn't today
> directly translate to any other project 'quality' metric, but it might one
> day.]
I had a hunch that this was the case - so current-fog ~= clarity and as
such real fog may perhaps be better defined as
real-fog = 1/(current-fog)
If that's is a correct (reasonable) assumption - is this something I
should post to JIRA?
Cheers, Stephen.
> regards,
>
> Adam
>
>
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Re: fog factor
Posted by Adam Jack <aj...@TrySybase.com>.
> Maybe it should, a boundary value is more comparable.
Sorry, I meant to type "bounded value" as in 0-1.
On this course they showed 30 of us fives line of text, and asked us to
count the number of Fs. Many folks found 3, and some found as many as 7. As
time went on more and more folks found the 7, as they noticed the Fs hidden
on the end in the simple words like 'of' that they mentally/unintentionally
skipped. I was one of the two who just couldn't make it out of the 3 box
even after everybody else had defected. I just can't see the words I type
compared with the words I think. Odd & a little frustrating/embarrasing...
Thankfully code gets strictly interpretteded... ;-)
regards
Adam
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Re: fog factor
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 23 Mar 2004, Adam Jack wrote:
> > Question for a gump newbi.
> >
> > As the fog clears - you would anticipate a fog factor approaching zero.
>
> Maybe it should, a boundary value is more comparable.
>
> > In the context of gump - is zero fog a good thing? Summary - I don't
> > understand the fog factor index - can anyone explain it or point me to
> > relevant documentation?
>
> For today, quite the reverse. The larger the better.
I think part of the problem is that people think of "fog" as that murky
stuff that nobody likes, instead of "FOG" as Friend Of Gump. If it was
clear that it's a "friendship index", I don't think there would be a need
to invert the sense, because a higher friendship index sounds better than
a low one. ;-)
My 2 cents...
--
Martin Cooper
>
> Gump does what Gump does, and some projects support that better than others.
> FOG is an attempt to translate that into something
> simple/comparable/tangible so folks can get a quick insight into something's
> suitability as a Gump dependency for their project. [It doesn't today
> directly translate to any other project 'quality' metric, but it might one
> day.]
>
> regards,
>
> Adam
>
>
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Re: fog factor
Posted by Adam Jack <aj...@TrySybase.com>.
> Question for a gump newbi.
>
> As the fog clears - you would anticipate a fog factor approaching zero.
Maybe it should, a boundary value is more comparable.
> In the context of gump - is zero fog a good thing? Summary - I don't
> understand the fog factor index - can anyone explain it or point me to
> relevant documentation?
For today, quite the reverse. The larger the better.
Gump does what Gump does, and some projects support that better than others.
FOG is an attempt to translate that into something
simple/comparable/tangible so folks can get a quick insight into something's
suitability as a Gump dependency for their project. [It doesn't today
directly translate to any other project 'quality' metric, but it might one
day.]
regards,
Adam
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