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Posted to users@subversion.apache.org by "Wadsworth, Eric (Contractor)" <wa...@fhu.disa.mil> on 2003/11/06 21:13:14 UTC
Subversion vs. VSS
I work at a rather sizable government facility with multiple departments,
some of which do development work. I got an email this week regarding
something new: There is an initiative to standardize on a "CM" tool
(Configuration Management). They are considering Visual Source Safe. I wrote
a few email messages, and made a couple of phone calls, and deduced that the
reason that they are considering VSS is because:
1) Most people here have used it or are using it.
2) It integrates with Visual Studio (which makes the Windows developers
happy).
3) Most departments already have licenses for it.
In other words, they are choosing it kind of by default. They have not
considered features in their choice. The people I spoke with said that they
would be open to consider alternatives to VSS. Now would be the time to
clear my throat and say something, if something will ever be said here.
I, for one, have never seen VSS used, but one guy on my team here says he's
used it, and hated it. Has anyone writtem a document doing a feature
comparison? How about a usability comparison? Is there a URL that compares
Subversion with VSS, showing relative strengths and weaknesses? I'd like to
have a document to pass around to a few key people (some of whom are big
open-source fans) but I'm not qualified to write it myself, having never
used VSS.
Thanks in advance!
--- Eric
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Re: Subversion vs. VSS
Posted by "B. W. Fitzpatrick" <fi...@red-bean.com>.
"Wadsworth, Eric (Contractor)" <wa...@fhu.disa.mil> writes:
> I'd like to have a document to pass around to a few key people (some
> of whom are big open-source fans) but I'm not qualified to write it
> myself, having never used VSS.
Here's a quote I once heard from someone who works at Microsoft:
"Visual SourceSafe? It would be safer to print out all your code,
run it through a shredder, and set it on fire."
-Fitz
--
Brian W. Fitzpatrick <fi...@red-bean.com> http://www.red-bean.com/fitz/
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Re: Subversion vs. VSS
Posted by "B. W. Fitzpatrick" <fi...@red-bean.com>.
"Wadsworth, Eric (Contractor)" <wa...@fhu.disa.mil> writes:
> I'd like to have a document to pass around to a few key people (some
> of whom are big open-source fans) but I'm not qualified to write it
> myself, having never used VSS.
Here's a quote I once heard from someone who works at Microsoft:
"Visual SourceSafe? It would be safer to print out all your code,
run it through a shredder, and set it on fire."
-Fitz
--
Brian W. Fitzpatrick <fi...@red-bean.com> http://www.red-bean.com/fitz/
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Re: Subversion vs. VSS
Posted by "Jens B. Jorgensen" <je...@tallan.com>.
Bryce Schober wrote:
> Mark wrote:
>
>> It's pretty telling that Microsoft doesn't use it for the Windows
>> source.
>
>
> So what *do* they use? Anyone know?
>
Word I've heard is that they have their own home-grown system (totally
unrelated to VSS).
--
Jens B. Jorgensen
jens.jorgensen@tallan.com
"With a focused commitment to our clients and our people, we deliver value through customized technology solutions."
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Re: Subversion vs. VSS
Posted by Marc Singer <el...@buici.com>.
On Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 10:52:59AM -0800, Bryce Schober wrote:
> Mark wrote:
> >It's pretty telling that Microsoft doesn't use it for the Windows source.
>
> So what *do* they use? Anyone know?
They used to have a very fine piece of software, developed in house,
called slm (Source Library Manager). When they bought VSS, it was
mandated that slm be replaced by VSS. It is true that maby groups
refuse to use VSS as it is unstable and feature poor as compared to
slm. Last time I was there, my group used slm.
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Re: Subversion vs. VSS
Posted by Bryce Schober <br...@dpzone.com>.
Mark wrote:
> It's pretty telling that Microsoft doesn't use it for the Windows source.
So what *do* they use? Anyone know?
--
Bryce Schober
Design Engineer
Dynon Avionics, Inc.
www.dynonavionics.com
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Re: Subversion vs. VSS
Posted by kf...@collab.net.
marc@mleith.net writes:
> The best thing about SourceSafe is the price.
Heh :-).
Well, since this is the Subversion users list: The only way SourceSafe
could beat us on price is if Microsoft pays you to run it.
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Re: Subversion vs. VSS
Posted by ma...@mleith.net.
I'm relatively new to using subversion (for a small startup of mine) but I have
and continue to use VSS in my day job. Hence my choice of subversion for my own
use.
The best thing about SourceSafe is the price.
Everything is else terrible.
We've nearly 2 million lines of source (C++ and VB6) in our main repository and
about 20 developers. I've had to extract and rebuild the whole repository three
times in 2 years. Each time losing 6+ months of history.
It's slow and the 'analyze/compress/repair' functionality does not seem ever to
compress and recover space. The corruption is terrible. We've gone through
periods where we'd lose several files each day.
Marc Leith
"Everyone has to believe in something, I believe I'll have another beer".
Quoting Mark <ma...@msdhub.com>:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Wadsworth, Eric (Contractor)" <wa...@fhu.disa.mil>
>
>
> > Has anyone writtem a document doing a feature
> > comparison? How about a usability comparison? Is there a URL that compares
> > Subversion with VSS, showing relative strengths and weaknesses?
> >
> > Thanks in advance!
> >
> > --- Eric
>
> Not a document, but I can tell you this: if you go looking for help with
> VSS, you'll quickly find that there's only 1 (one) book ever written about
> it (which is a couple of versions back and now out of print) and anyone who
> will consult on VSS will offer the same first advice: "Get rid of VSS for
> ANYTHING else".
>
> VSS has big problems with repository corruption, and even MS recommends that
> you keep repositories smallish. The repository fixer doesn't always fix
> broken repositories.
>
> It's pretty telling that Microsoft doesn't use it for the Windows source.
>
> Mark
>
>
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>
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Re: Subversion vs. VSS
Posted by Mark <ma...@msdhub.com>.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wadsworth, Eric (Contractor)" <wa...@fhu.disa.mil>
> Has anyone writtem a document doing a feature
> comparison? How about a usability comparison? Is there a URL that compares
> Subversion with VSS, showing relative strengths and weaknesses?
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> --- Eric
Not a document, but I can tell you this: if you go looking for help with
VSS, you'll quickly find that there's only 1 (one) book ever written about
it (which is a couple of versions back and now out of print) and anyone who
will consult on VSS will offer the same first advice: "Get rid of VSS for
ANYTHING else".
VSS has big problems with repository corruption, and even MS recommends that
you keep repositories smallish. The repository fixer doesn't always fix
broken repositories.
It's pretty telling that Microsoft doesn't use it for the Windows source.
Mark
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Re: Subversion vs. VSS
Posted by Barry Scott <ba...@barrys-emacs.org>.
One of the ways to show the problems with sourcesafe is to look in the
Microsoft knowledge base for them Search for "Visual Sourcesafe kbbug"
or "Visual SourceSafe corruption" that should help you wilth reasons
not to use.
Point out that all databases MUST be analysed frequently, once per day
if the DB is busy. We ended up writing a utility to drive analyze.exe
automatically and check the logs for evidence of analysis failures.
We had around 80 VSS DBs so the tools where a necessity, Leaving this
up to IT people to do manually is asking for trouble.
Why 80 DBs you ask? Once the quantity of data or files or revisions
(its not easy to predicting the failure points) get big the DB will
failed frequently. MS use a rule of thumb of 2GB, but you can see
problems at smaller sizes.
If a client machine loses its network connect while working on a DB
it will corrupt. Plug the LAN cable or hit the power switch.
We hit problems with the automation interface and got as far as the
Redmon VSS support team only to be told that they would not fix it.
You cannot retrieve old revisions of software if you later deleted
a file in the old label from automation. This means you have to
use the command line SS or manually do all source control.
Processing history from the automation API takes around .5 seconds
per item on a LAN. So a file with 50 revisions will take 25 seconds
to list.
If you have virus protection running and it checks the files on the
VSS DB share performance will dive by a factor 20x.
All machines that touch the DB must have their time synchronized or
you will see labels fail to label the files you expect.
They said that the energy was going into a SQL based replacement,
I have no idea where they have got to with it. And as others have
said MS does not use VSS in house.
You might also like to point out that running the VSS GUI is unusable
on slow connections. A right click on a file in the GUI transfers
5M Bytes typically before the menu appears.
Barry
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Re: Subversion vs. VSS
Posted by Mike Mason <mg...@thoughtworks.net>.
Wadsworth, Eric (Contractor) wrote:
>I, for one, have never seen VSS used, but one guy on my team here says he's
>used it, and hated it. Has anyone writtem a document doing a feature
>comparison? How about a usability comparison? Is there a URL that compares
>Subversion with VSS, showing relative strengths and weaknesses? I'd like to
>have a document to pass around to a few key people (some of whom are big
>open-source fans) but I'm not qualified to write it myself, having never
>used VSS.
>
>
VSS tends to get picked because people have used it, and departments
have licences for it already (I think you get bundled licences with
various bits of Visual Studio). I think it's pretty useless, don't like
the enforced exclusive locking (plenty of going to ask other people to
unlock files you want to work on) and never used the integration anyhow
(was doing Java).
The most fun thing I've found is that if you set the clock on your
client PC forward a week, then commit a change, no-one else will see the
change until next week. Nice. Logic-timebomb anyone?
Mike.
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Re: Subversion vs. VSS
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 02:25:39PM -0600, Kevin Meinert wrote:
> > waiting to destroy your work. I have been told that even Microsoft
> > does not use VSS internally. I do not know if that statement is true,
> > but no Microsoft engineer with whom I'm acquainted uses it.
>...
> They use something close to CVS (a command line tool). called squish or
> something I can't remember. but I had a friend show it to me once when I
> was at microsoft visiting.
It was called SLM ("slime"). Very, very fast. But it also sucked pretty
hard, thus the nickname.
As already reported in this thread, Microsoft has moved to a (private,
internally-developed) Perforce derivative named SourceDepot.
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
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Re: Subversion vs. VSS
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 02:25:39PM -0600, Kevin Meinert wrote:
> > waiting to destroy your work. I have been told that even Microsoft
> > does not use VSS internally. I do not know if that statement is true,
> > but no Microsoft engineer with whom I'm acquainted uses it.
>...
> They use something close to CVS (a command line tool). called squish or
> something I can't remember. but I had a friend show it to me once when I
> was at microsoft visiting.
It was called SLM ("slime"). Very, very fast. But it also sucked pretty
hard, thus the nickname.
As already reported in this thread, Microsoft has moved to a (private,
internally-developed) Perforce derivative named SourceDepot.
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
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Re: Subversion vs. VSS
Posted by Kevin Meinert <ke...@vrsource.org>.
> waiting to destroy your work. I have been told that even Microsoft
> does not use VSS internally. I do not know if that statement is true,
> but no Microsoft engineer with whom I'm acquainted uses it.
this is true, and IMHO a good reason not to use it. There are lots of
buggyness, especially with integration of VSS and MSVS. If they were
using it, it would become a good tool. And there is probably a reason
they don't use it.
They use something close to CVS (a command line tool). called squish or
something I can't remember. but I had a friend show it to me once when I
was at microsoft visiting.
>
> No matter what source code or configuration management system you
> recommend, a vote _against_ Visual Source Safe is a vote _for_ safe
> source.
> __________
> Scott Collins <http://ScottCollins.net/>
>
>
>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: PGP 8.0.3
>
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> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
--
*--*---*---*----*-----*------*------*-----*----*---*---*--*
Kevin Meinert /_/
home - http://www.vrsource.org/~kevin \ /
music - http://www.subatomicglue.com \/ __ \/
\__
\_\
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Re: Subversion vs. VSS
Posted by Kevin Meinert <ke...@vrsource.org>.
> waiting to destroy your work. I have been told that even Microsoft
> does not use VSS internally. I do not know if that statement is true,
> but no Microsoft engineer with whom I'm acquainted uses it.
this is true, and IMHO a good reason not to use it. There are lots of
buggyness, especially with integration of VSS and MSVS. If they were
using it, it would become a good tool. And there is probably a reason
they don't use it.
They use something close to CVS (a command line tool). called squish or
something I can't remember. but I had a friend show it to me once when I
was at microsoft visiting.
>
> No matter what source code or configuration management system you
> recommend, a vote _against_ Visual Source Safe is a vote _for_ safe
> source.
> __________
> Scott Collins <http://ScottCollins.net/>
>
>
>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: PGP 8.0.3
>
> iQA/AwUBP6vzMcN8VLjezbXrEQLM1gCeISXG5HWD8vGOI+y9ApFuj2txyDUAoKdJ
> 7pPpwe4pzqiN+nllFVl/V5ph
> =ZKeC
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@subversion.tigris.org
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>
--
*--*---*---*----*-----*------*------*-----*----*---*---*--*
Kevin Meinert /_/
home - http://www.vrsource.org/~kevin \ /
music - http://www.subatomicglue.com \/ __ \/
\__
\_\
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Re: Subversion vs. VSS
Posted by Scott Collins <sc...@ScottCollins.net>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Many people will publicly decry VSS, e.g.,
<http://www.highprogrammer.com/alan/windev/sourcesafe.html>
I recall a site listing the top ten reasons not to use VSS, but I was
unable to locate it by search. I have personally worked with VSS and I
must agree with the nay-sayers. VSS is a data-loss bear-trap armed and
waiting to destroy your work. I have been told that even Microsoft
does not use VSS internally. I do not know if that statement is true,
but no Microsoft engineer with whom I'm acquainted uses it.
No matter what source code or configuration management system you
recommend, a vote _against_ Visual Source Safe is a vote _for_ safe
source.
__________
Scott Collins <http://ScottCollins.net/>
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Version: PGP 8.0.3
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=ZKeC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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Re: Subversion vs. VSS
Posted by Mike Mason <mg...@thoughtworks.net>.
Wadsworth, Eric (Contractor) wrote:
>I, for one, have never seen VSS used, but one guy on my team here says he's
>used it, and hated it. Has anyone writtem a document doing a feature
>comparison? How about a usability comparison? Is there a URL that compares
>Subversion with VSS, showing relative strengths and weaknesses? I'd like to
>have a document to pass around to a few key people (some of whom are big
>open-source fans) but I'm not qualified to write it myself, having never
>used VSS.
>
>
VSS tends to get picked because people have used it, and departments
have licences for it already (I think you get bundled licences with
various bits of Visual Studio). I think it's pretty useless, don't like
the enforced exclusive locking (plenty of going to ask other people to
unlock files you want to work on) and never used the integration anyhow
(was doing Java).
The most fun thing I've found is that if you set the clock on your
client PC forward a week, then commit a change, no-one else will see the
change until next week. Nice. Logic-timebomb anyone?
Mike.
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Re: Subversion vs. VSS
Posted by Barry Scott <ba...@barrys-emacs.org>.
One of the ways to show the problems with sourcesafe is to look in the
Microsoft knowledge base for them Search for "Visual Sourcesafe kbbug"
or "Visual SourceSafe corruption" that should help you wilth reasons
not to use.
Point out that all databases MUST be analysed frequently, once per day
if the DB is busy. We ended up writing a utility to drive analyze.exe
automatically and check the logs for evidence of analysis failures.
We had around 80 VSS DBs so the tools where a necessity, Leaving this
up to IT people to do manually is asking for trouble.
Why 80 DBs you ask? Once the quantity of data or files or revisions
(its not easy to predicting the failure points) get big the DB will
failed frequently. MS use a rule of thumb of 2GB, but you can see
problems at smaller sizes.
If a client machine loses its network connect while working on a DB
it will corrupt. Plug the LAN cable or hit the power switch.
We hit problems with the automation interface and got as far as the
Redmon VSS support team only to be told that they would not fix it.
You cannot retrieve old revisions of software if you later deleted
a file in the old label from automation. This means you have to
use the command line SS or manually do all source control.
Processing history from the automation API takes around .5 seconds
per item on a LAN. So a file with 50 revisions will take 25 seconds
to list.
If you have virus protection running and it checks the files on the
VSS DB share performance will dive by a factor 20x.
All machines that touch the DB must have their time synchronized or
you will see labels fail to label the files you expect.
They said that the energy was going into a SQL based replacement,
I have no idea where they have got to with it. And as others have
said MS does not use VSS in house.
You might also like to point out that running the VSS GUI is unusable
on slow connections. A right click on a file in the GUI transfers
5M Bytes typically before the menu appears.
Barry
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Re: Subversion vs. VSS
Posted by Sigfred Håversen <su...@mumak.com>.
On Monday 10 November 2003 19:39, SteveKing wrote:
> How about this? When I first saw that I was shocked
> and threw away vss immediately. Took some time
> to convince my boss - until he saw that warning himself.
>
> (Note: this screenshot is from about three years ago.
> I don't know if newer versions of vss still do that)
>
> Stefan
Priceless ;-)
As a side issue, at my work we are moving away from VSS over to Subversion
(clients on Windows, server on OpenBSD using Apache). Actually, all our
development and content material is now on Subversion, with very frequent
backups. Up front we decided that some loss of commit history was not that
critical (we're pretty small company), and the old VSS DBes (now locked)
was/is still available for the curious.
/Sigfred
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Re: Subversion vs. VSS
Posted by Sigfred Håversen <su...@mumak.com>.
On Monday 10 November 2003 19:39, SteveKing wrote:
> How about this? When I first saw that I was shocked
> and threw away vss immediately. Took some time
> to convince my boss - until he saw that warning himself.
>
> (Note: this screenshot is from about three years ago.
> I don't know if newer versions of vss still do that)
>
> Stefan
Priceless ;-)
As a side issue, at my work we are moving away from VSS over to Subversion
(clients on Windows, server on OpenBSD using Apache). Actually, all our
development and content material is now on Subversion, with very frequent
backups. Up front we decided that some loss of commit history was not that
critical (we're pretty small company), and the old VSS DBes (now locked)
was/is still available for the curious.
/Sigfred
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Re: Subversion vs. VSS
Posted by SteveKing <st...@gmx.ch>.
How about this? When I first saw that I was shocked
and threw away vss immediately. Took some time
to convince my boss - until he saw that warning himself.
(Note: this screenshot is from about three years ago.
I don't know if newer versions of vss still do that)
Stefan
Re: Subversion vs. VSS
Posted by Scott Collins <sc...@ScottCollins.net>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Many people will publicly decry VSS, e.g.,
<http://www.highprogrammer.com/alan/windev/sourcesafe.html>
I recall a site listing the top ten reasons not to use VSS, but I was
unable to locate it by search. I have personally worked with VSS and I
must agree with the nay-sayers. VSS is a data-loss bear-trap armed and
waiting to destroy your work. I have been told that even Microsoft
does not use VSS internally. I do not know if that statement is true,
but no Microsoft engineer with whom I'm acquainted uses it.
No matter what source code or configuration management system you
recommend, a vote _against_ Visual Source Safe is a vote _for_ safe
source.
__________
Scott Collins <http://ScottCollins.net/>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP 8.0.3
iQA/AwUBP6vzMcN8VLjezbXrEQLM1gCeISXG5HWD8vGOI+y9ApFuj2txyDUAoKdJ
7pPpwe4pzqiN+nllFVl/V5ph
=ZKeC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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Re: Subversion vs. VSS
Posted by SteveKing <st...@gmx.ch>.
How about this? When I first saw that I was shocked
and threw away vss immediately. Took some time
to convince my boss - until he saw that warning himself.
(Note: this screenshot is from about three years ago.
I don't know if newer versions of vss still do that)
Stefan
Re: Subversion vs. VSS
Posted by Barry Scott <ba...@barrys-emacs.org>.
Looks to me that SourceSafe and Perforce and not that much different in price,
certainly in volume. And the hidden costs of SourceSafe make Perforce cheap.
Barry
At 07-11-2003 23:39, Garrett Rooney wrote:
>On Nov 7, 2003, at 5:24 PM, Chris Thomas wrote:
>
>>
>>On Nov 7, 2003, at 12:21 PM, Kevin Meinert wrote:
>>
>>>One advantage (only one I can see) is that VSS manages binary files well,
>>>i.e. it has exclusive locking. For this reason I would choose it over CVS
>>>or subversion at this point, though SVN will have it after 1.0.
>>
>>I think Perforce would be a much better choice than VSS. Perforce
>>operates almost exclusively on exclusive locking, although you can graft
>>CVS-style merges onto it with external tools. Perforce may be expensive,
>>though.
>
>Um, that's not true. Well, the expensive part is true, but the 'almost
>exclusively on exclusive locking' isn't. While perforce will inform you
>when another user is editing a file when you run 'p4 edit', nothing stops
>you from doing so by default, and there is built in merge support that is
>quite good. It does have an exclusive locking mode, but in my experience
>using it is not the common case (except for binary files).
>
>-garrett
>
>
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Re: Subversion vs. VSS
Posted by Chris Thomas <ch...@m-audio.com>.
On Nov 8, 2003, at 11:18 AM, Marc Singer wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 06:39:48PM -0500, Garrett Rooney wrote:
>>
>> On Nov 7, 2003, at 5:24 PM, Chris Thomas wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 7, 2003, at 12:21 PM, Kevin Meinert wrote:
>>>
>>>> One advantage (only one I can see) is that VSS manages binary files
>>>> well,
>>>> i.e. it has exclusive locking. For this reason I would choose it
>>>> over CVS
>>>> or subversion at this point, though SVN will have it after 1.0.
>>>
>>> I think Perforce would be a much better choice than VSS. Perforce
>>> operates almost exclusively on exclusive locking, although you can
>>> graft CVS-style merges onto it with external tools. Perforce may be
>>> expensive, though.
>>
>> Um, that's not true. Well, the expensive part is true, but the
>> 'almost
>> exclusively on exclusive locking' isn't. While perforce will inform
>> you when another user is editing a file when you run 'p4 edit',
>> nothing
>> stops you from doing so by default, and there is built in merge
>> support
>> that is quite good. It does have an exclusive locking mode, but in my
>> experience using it is not the common case (except for binary files).
>
> FYI.
>
> I was told by a Perforce user that it is possible to exclude others
> from commiting while you have a file locked. Yes, they can edit, but
> Perforce blocks their commits until you command and unlock the file
> making it the problem of other users to handle merging.
FWIW, Garrett is correct, mea culpa. It is possible to exclusively lock
something in Perforce, but "p4 edit" does not do it. Confusing user
interface? Yes, have some...
Chris
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Re: Subversion vs. VSS
Posted by Chris Thomas <ch...@m-audio.com>.
On Nov 8, 2003, at 11:18 AM, Marc Singer wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 06:39:48PM -0500, Garrett Rooney wrote:
>>
>> On Nov 7, 2003, at 5:24 PM, Chris Thomas wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 7, 2003, at 12:21 PM, Kevin Meinert wrote:
>>>
>>>> One advantage (only one I can see) is that VSS manages binary files
>>>> well,
>>>> i.e. it has exclusive locking. For this reason I would choose it
>>>> over CVS
>>>> or subversion at this point, though SVN will have it after 1.0.
>>>
>>> I think Perforce would be a much better choice than VSS. Perforce
>>> operates almost exclusively on exclusive locking, although you can
>>> graft CVS-style merges onto it with external tools. Perforce may be
>>> expensive, though.
>>
>> Um, that's not true. Well, the expensive part is true, but the
>> 'almost
>> exclusively on exclusive locking' isn't. While perforce will inform
>> you when another user is editing a file when you run 'p4 edit',
>> nothing
>> stops you from doing so by default, and there is built in merge
>> support
>> that is quite good. It does have an exclusive locking mode, but in my
>> experience using it is not the common case (except for binary files).
>
> FYI.
>
> I was told by a Perforce user that it is possible to exclude others
> from commiting while you have a file locked. Yes, they can edit, but
> Perforce blocks their commits until you command and unlock the file
> making it the problem of other users to handle merging.
FWIW, Garrett is correct, mea culpa. It is possible to exclusively lock
something in Perforce, but "p4 edit" does not do it. Confusing user
interface? Yes, have some...
Chris
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Re: Subversion vs. VSS
Posted by Marc Singer <el...@buici.com>.
On Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 06:39:48PM -0500, Garrett Rooney wrote:
>
> On Nov 7, 2003, at 5:24 PM, Chris Thomas wrote:
>
> >
> >On Nov 7, 2003, at 12:21 PM, Kevin Meinert wrote:
> >
> >>One advantage (only one I can see) is that VSS manages binary files
> >>well,
> >>i.e. it has exclusive locking. For this reason I would choose it
> >>over CVS
> >>or subversion at this point, though SVN will have it after 1.0.
> >
> >I think Perforce would be a much better choice than VSS. Perforce
> >operates almost exclusively on exclusive locking, although you can
> >graft CVS-style merges onto it with external tools. Perforce may be
> >expensive, though.
>
> Um, that's not true. Well, the expensive part is true, but the 'almost
> exclusively on exclusive locking' isn't. While perforce will inform
> you when another user is editing a file when you run 'p4 edit', nothing
> stops you from doing so by default, and there is built in merge support
> that is quite good. It does have an exclusive locking mode, but in my
> experience using it is not the common case (except for binary files).
FYI.
I was told by a Perforce user that it is possible to exclude others
from commiting while you have a file locked. Yes, they can edit, but
Perforce blocks their commits until you command and unlock the file
making it the problem of other users to handle merging.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Subversion vs. VSS
Posted by kf...@collab.net.
Brian Mathis <bm...@directedge.com> writes:
> -. "Many other people are using VSS, and if it was so bad
> they wouldn't be using it/MS wouldn't be selling it."
> -. "Microsoft stuff is usually easy to use, the learning curve
> for other stuff might be too high"
> -. "VSS is already integrated in many tools we already use"
>
> Having answers to those questions will really help the case as well.
I don't think we can do much about those.
The first objection is not something Subversion can do anything about;
along with world hunger and global deforestation, it is outside our
scope.
The second two are true, so there's not much for us to say. I mean,
if those are your priorities, then those are your priorities.
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Re: Subversion vs. VSS
Posted by Brian Mathis <bm...@directedge.com>.
I just wanted to add something non-technical to this discussion. Most
of the time the people making decisions are thinking at least as much
about business as technical issues.
It's easy to compare feature lists and bug reports, but you'll also have
to deal with stuff like:
-. "Many other people are using VSS, and if it was so bad
they wouldn't be using it/MS wouldn't be selling it."
-. "Microsoft stuff is usually easy to use, the learning curve
for other stuff might be too high"
-. "VSS is already integrated in many tools we already use"
Having answers to those questions will really help the case as well.
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Re: Subversion vs. VSS
Posted by Barry Scott <ba...@barrys-emacs.org>.
Looks to me that SourceSafe and Perforce and not that much different in price,
certainly in volume. And the hidden costs of SourceSafe make Perforce cheap.
Barry
At 07-11-2003 23:39, Garrett Rooney wrote:
>On Nov 7, 2003, at 5:24 PM, Chris Thomas wrote:
>
>>
>>On Nov 7, 2003, at 12:21 PM, Kevin Meinert wrote:
>>
>>>One advantage (only one I can see) is that VSS manages binary files well,
>>>i.e. it has exclusive locking. For this reason I would choose it over CVS
>>>or subversion at this point, though SVN will have it after 1.0.
>>
>>I think Perforce would be a much better choice than VSS. Perforce
>>operates almost exclusively on exclusive locking, although you can graft
>>CVS-style merges onto it with external tools. Perforce may be expensive,
>>though.
>
>Um, that's not true. Well, the expensive part is true, but the 'almost
>exclusively on exclusive locking' isn't. While perforce will inform you
>when another user is editing a file when you run 'p4 edit', nothing stops
>you from doing so by default, and there is built in merge support that is
>quite good. It does have an exclusive locking mode, but in my experience
>using it is not the common case (except for binary files).
>
>-garrett
>
>
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Re: Subversion vs. VSS
Posted by Marc Singer <el...@buici.com>.
On Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 06:39:48PM -0500, Garrett Rooney wrote:
>
> On Nov 7, 2003, at 5:24 PM, Chris Thomas wrote:
>
> >
> >On Nov 7, 2003, at 12:21 PM, Kevin Meinert wrote:
> >
> >>One advantage (only one I can see) is that VSS manages binary files
> >>well,
> >>i.e. it has exclusive locking. For this reason I would choose it
> >>over CVS
> >>or subversion at this point, though SVN will have it after 1.0.
> >
> >I think Perforce would be a much better choice than VSS. Perforce
> >operates almost exclusively on exclusive locking, although you can
> >graft CVS-style merges onto it with external tools. Perforce may be
> >expensive, though.
>
> Um, that's not true. Well, the expensive part is true, but the 'almost
> exclusively on exclusive locking' isn't. While perforce will inform
> you when another user is editing a file when you run 'p4 edit', nothing
> stops you from doing so by default, and there is built in merge support
> that is quite good. It does have an exclusive locking mode, but in my
> experience using it is not the common case (except for binary files).
FYI.
I was told by a Perforce user that it is possible to exclude others
from commiting while you have a file locked. Yes, they can edit, but
Perforce blocks their commits until you command and unlock the file
making it the problem of other users to handle merging.
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Re: Subversion vs. VSS
Posted by Garrett Rooney <ro...@electricjellyfish.net>.
On Nov 7, 2003, at 5:24 PM, Chris Thomas wrote:
>
> On Nov 7, 2003, at 12:21 PM, Kevin Meinert wrote:
>
>> One advantage (only one I can see) is that VSS manages binary files
>> well,
>> i.e. it has exclusive locking. For this reason I would choose it
>> over CVS
>> or subversion at this point, though SVN will have it after 1.0.
>
> I think Perforce would be a much better choice than VSS. Perforce
> operates almost exclusively on exclusive locking, although you can
> graft CVS-style merges onto it with external tools. Perforce may be
> expensive, though.
Um, that's not true. Well, the expensive part is true, but the 'almost
exclusively on exclusive locking' isn't. While perforce will inform
you when another user is editing a file when you run 'p4 edit', nothing
stops you from doing so by default, and there is built in merge support
that is quite good. It does have an exclusive locking mode, but in my
experience using it is not the common case (except for binary files).
-garrett
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Re: Subversion vs. VSS
Posted by Garrett Rooney <ro...@electricjellyfish.net>.
On Nov 7, 2003, at 5:24 PM, Chris Thomas wrote:
>
> On Nov 7, 2003, at 12:21 PM, Kevin Meinert wrote:
>
>> One advantage (only one I can see) is that VSS manages binary files
>> well,
>> i.e. it has exclusive locking. For this reason I would choose it
>> over CVS
>> or subversion at this point, though SVN will have it after 1.0.
>
> I think Perforce would be a much better choice than VSS. Perforce
> operates almost exclusively on exclusive locking, although you can
> graft CVS-style merges onto it with external tools. Perforce may be
> expensive, though.
Um, that's not true. Well, the expensive part is true, but the 'almost
exclusively on exclusive locking' isn't. While perforce will inform
you when another user is editing a file when you run 'p4 edit', nothing
stops you from doing so by default, and there is built in merge support
that is quite good. It does have an exclusive locking mode, but in my
experience using it is not the common case (except for binary files).
-garrett
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Re: Subversion vs. VSS
Posted by Chris Thomas <ch...@m-audio.com>.
On Nov 7, 2003, at 12:21 PM, Kevin Meinert wrote:
> One advantage (only one I can see) is that VSS manages binary files
> well,
> i.e. it has exclusive locking. For this reason I would choose it over
> CVS
> or subversion at this point, though SVN will have it after 1.0.
I think Perforce would be a much better choice than VSS. Perforce
operates almost exclusively on exclusive locking, although you can
graft CVS-style merges onto it with external tools. Perforce may be
expensive, though.
Chris
>
> CVS has advisory locks, but might not be what you want (I know I don't)
> for a large organization.
>
> If you have binary data, be sure that your source control can manage
> it.
> Exclusive locking is nessesary to prevent two people updating the same
> file at the same time - which then requires they hand merge changes.
> This
> is really really hard for some data formats (3d models with animation,
> texture mapping, etc.. for example).
>
>
> On Fri, 7 Nov 2003, Sir Woody Hackswell wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 6 Nov 2003, Wadsworth, Eric (Contractor) wrote:
>>
>>> In other words, they are choosing it kind of by default. They have
>>> not
>>> considered features in their choice. The people I spoke with said
>>> that they
>>> would be open to consider alternatives to VSS. Now would be the time
>>> to
>>> clear my throat and say something, if something will ever be said
>>> here.
>>>
>>> I, for one, have never seen VSS used, but one guy on my team here
>>> says he's
>>> used it, and hated it. Has anyone writtem a document doing a feature
>>> comparison? How about a usability comparison? Is there a URL that
>>> compares
>>> Subversion with VSS, showing relative strengths and weaknesses? I'd
>>> like to
>>> have a document to pass around to a few key people (some of whom are
>>> big
>>> open-source fans) but I'm not qualified to write it myself, having
>>> never
>>> used VSS.
>>
>> I'll vouch for the crappiness of VSS. It corrupts easily, and the
>> tools MS
>> gives you to fix it, don't fix it. =sigh= It also gets very very slow
>> as the
>> database gets larger. No atomic commits. You must lock files to
>> edit them.
>> NO UNIX SUPPORT. About its only advantage that we use is file
>> "sharing"
>> between projects. i.e. you update a shared file in one project, and
>> someone
>> checks out the other project, they'll get the same version.
>>
>> I'd even consider CVS over VSS any day.
>>
>> A few comparisons:
>> http://www.perforce.com/perforce/reviews.html
>> http://better-scm.berlios.de/comparison/comparison.html
>>
>> One in Italian, if you read it:
>> http://www.siforge.org/articles/2002/12/10-version-control.html
>> Google translated version:
>> http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=http://
>> www.siforge.org/articles/2002/12/10-version-control.html&prev=/
>> search%3Fq%3DVSS%2Bsubersion%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF
>> -8%26oe%3DUTF-8
>>
>>
>> -Woody!
>>
>> -----
>> veni, vidi, vomi
>>
>> Sir.Woody@Hackswell.com http://sir.woody.hackswell.com
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@subversion.tigris.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@subversion.tigris.org
>>
>>
>
> --
> *--*---*---*----*-----*------*------*-----*----*---*---*--*
> Kevin Meinert /_/
> home - http://www.vrsource.org/~kevin \ /
> music - http://www.subatomicglue.com \/ __ \/
> \__
> \_\
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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Re: Subversion vs. VSS
Posted by Kevin Meinert <ke...@vrsource.org>.
One advantage (only one I can see) is that VSS manages binary files well,
i.e. it has exclusive locking. For this reason I would choose it over CVS
or subversion at this point, though SVN will have it after 1.0.
CVS has advisory locks, but might not be what you want (I know I don't)
for a large organization.
If you have binary data, be sure that your source control can manage it.
Exclusive locking is nessesary to prevent two people updating the same
file at the same time - which then requires they hand merge changes. This
is really really hard for some data formats (3d models with animation,
texture mapping, etc.. for example).
On Fri, 7 Nov 2003, Sir Woody Hackswell wrote:
> On Thu, 6 Nov 2003, Wadsworth, Eric (Contractor) wrote:
>
> > In other words, they are choosing it kind of by default. They have not
> > considered features in their choice. The people I spoke with said that they
> > would be open to consider alternatives to VSS. Now would be the time to
> > clear my throat and say something, if something will ever be said here.
> >
> > I, for one, have never seen VSS used, but one guy on my team here says he's
> > used it, and hated it. Has anyone writtem a document doing a feature
> > comparison? How about a usability comparison? Is there a URL that compares
> > Subversion with VSS, showing relative strengths and weaknesses? I'd like to
> > have a document to pass around to a few key people (some of whom are big
> > open-source fans) but I'm not qualified to write it myself, having never
> > used VSS.
>
> I'll vouch for the crappiness of VSS. It corrupts easily, and the tools MS
> gives you to fix it, don't fix it. =sigh= It also gets very very slow as the
> database gets larger. No atomic commits. You must lock files to edit them.
> NO UNIX SUPPORT. About its only advantage that we use is file "sharing"
> between projects. i.e. you update a shared file in one project, and someone
> checks out the other project, they'll get the same version.
>
> I'd even consider CVS over VSS any day.
>
> A few comparisons:
> http://www.perforce.com/perforce/reviews.html
> http://better-scm.berlios.de/comparison/comparison.html
>
> One in Italian, if you read it:
> http://www.siforge.org/articles/2002/12/10-version-control.html
> Google translated version:
> http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=http://www.siforge.org/articles/2002/12/10-version-control.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DVSS%2Bsubersion%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8
>
>
> -Woody!
>
> -----
> veni, vidi, vomi
>
> Sir.Woody@Hackswell.com http://sir.woody.hackswell.com
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@subversion.tigris.org
>
>
--
*--*---*---*----*-----*------*------*-----*----*---*---*--*
Kevin Meinert /_/
home - http://www.vrsource.org/~kevin \ /
music - http://www.subatomicglue.com \/ __ \/
\__
\_\
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Re: Subversion vs. VSS
Posted by Kevin Meinert <ke...@vrsource.org>.
One advantage (only one I can see) is that VSS manages binary files well,
i.e. it has exclusive locking. For this reason I would choose it over CVS
or subversion at this point, though SVN will have it after 1.0.
CVS has advisory locks, but might not be what you want (I know I don't)
for a large organization.
If you have binary data, be sure that your source control can manage it.
Exclusive locking is nessesary to prevent two people updating the same
file at the same time - which then requires they hand merge changes. This
is really really hard for some data formats (3d models with animation,
texture mapping, etc.. for example).
On Fri, 7 Nov 2003, Sir Woody Hackswell wrote:
> On Thu, 6 Nov 2003, Wadsworth, Eric (Contractor) wrote:
>
> > In other words, they are choosing it kind of by default. They have not
> > considered features in their choice. The people I spoke with said that they
> > would be open to consider alternatives to VSS. Now would be the time to
> > clear my throat and say something, if something will ever be said here.
> >
> > I, for one, have never seen VSS used, but one guy on my team here says he's
> > used it, and hated it. Has anyone writtem a document doing a feature
> > comparison? How about a usability comparison? Is there a URL that compares
> > Subversion with VSS, showing relative strengths and weaknesses? I'd like to
> > have a document to pass around to a few key people (some of whom are big
> > open-source fans) but I'm not qualified to write it myself, having never
> > used VSS.
>
> I'll vouch for the crappiness of VSS. It corrupts easily, and the tools MS
> gives you to fix it, don't fix it. =sigh= It also gets very very slow as the
> database gets larger. No atomic commits. You must lock files to edit them.
> NO UNIX SUPPORT. About its only advantage that we use is file "sharing"
> between projects. i.e. you update a shared file in one project, and someone
> checks out the other project, they'll get the same version.
>
> I'd even consider CVS over VSS any day.
>
> A few comparisons:
> http://www.perforce.com/perforce/reviews.html
> http://better-scm.berlios.de/comparison/comparison.html
>
> One in Italian, if you read it:
> http://www.siforge.org/articles/2002/12/10-version-control.html
> Google translated version:
> http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=http://www.siforge.org/articles/2002/12/10-version-control.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DVSS%2Bsubersion%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8
>
>
> -Woody!
>
> -----
> veni, vidi, vomi
>
> Sir.Woody@Hackswell.com http://sir.woody.hackswell.com
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@subversion.tigris.org
>
>
--
*--*---*---*----*-----*------*------*-----*----*---*---*--*
Kevin Meinert /_/
home - http://www.vrsource.org/~kevin \ /
music - http://www.subatomicglue.com \/ __ \/
\__
\_\
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Re: Subversion vs. VSS
Posted by Sir Woody Hackswell <wo...@hackswell.com>.
On Thu, 6 Nov 2003, Wadsworth, Eric (Contractor) wrote:
> In other words, they are choosing it kind of by default. They have not
> considered features in their choice. The people I spoke with said that they
> would be open to consider alternatives to VSS. Now would be the time to
> clear my throat and say something, if something will ever be said here.
>
> I, for one, have never seen VSS used, but one guy on my team here says he's
> used it, and hated it. Has anyone writtem a document doing a feature
> comparison? How about a usability comparison? Is there a URL that compares
> Subversion with VSS, showing relative strengths and weaknesses? I'd like to
> have a document to pass around to a few key people (some of whom are big
> open-source fans) but I'm not qualified to write it myself, having never
> used VSS.
I'll vouch for the crappiness of VSS. It corrupts easily, and the tools MS
gives you to fix it, don't fix it. =sigh= It also gets very very slow as the
database gets larger. No atomic commits. You must lock files to edit them.
NO UNIX SUPPORT. About its only advantage that we use is file "sharing"
between projects. i.e. you update a shared file in one project, and someone
checks out the other project, they'll get the same version.
I'd even consider CVS over VSS any day.
A few comparisons:
http://www.perforce.com/perforce/reviews.html
http://better-scm.berlios.de/comparison/comparison.html
One in Italian, if you read it:
http://www.siforge.org/articles/2002/12/10-version-control.html
Google translated version:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=http://www.siforge.org/articles/2002/12/10-version-control.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DVSS%2Bsubersion%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8
-Woody!
-----
veni, vidi, vomi
Sir.Woody@Hackswell.com http://sir.woody.hackswell.com
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Re: Subversion vs. VSS
Posted by Sir Woody Hackswell <wo...@hackswell.com>.
On Thu, 6 Nov 2003, Wadsworth, Eric (Contractor) wrote:
> In other words, they are choosing it kind of by default. They have not
> considered features in their choice. The people I spoke with said that they
> would be open to consider alternatives to VSS. Now would be the time to
> clear my throat and say something, if something will ever be said here.
>
> I, for one, have never seen VSS used, but one guy on my team here says he's
> used it, and hated it. Has anyone writtem a document doing a feature
> comparison? How about a usability comparison? Is there a URL that compares
> Subversion with VSS, showing relative strengths and weaknesses? I'd like to
> have a document to pass around to a few key people (some of whom are big
> open-source fans) but I'm not qualified to write it myself, having never
> used VSS.
I'll vouch for the crappiness of VSS. It corrupts easily, and the tools MS
gives you to fix it, don't fix it. =sigh= It also gets very very slow as the
database gets larger. No atomic commits. You must lock files to edit them.
NO UNIX SUPPORT. About its only advantage that we use is file "sharing"
between projects. i.e. you update a shared file in one project, and someone
checks out the other project, they'll get the same version.
I'd even consider CVS over VSS any day.
A few comparisons:
http://www.perforce.com/perforce/reviews.html
http://better-scm.berlios.de/comparison/comparison.html
One in Italian, if you read it:
http://www.siforge.org/articles/2002/12/10-version-control.html
Google translated version:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=http://www.siforge.org/articles/2002/12/10-version-control.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DVSS%2Bsubersion%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8
-Woody!
-----
veni, vidi, vomi
Sir.Woody@Hackswell.com http://sir.woody.hackswell.com
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