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Posted to user@velocity.apache.org by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@4quarters.com> on 2003/12/30 13:33:56 UTC
More changes for comment : alternatives for && || etc and newlines in string literals
There are two recent changes that deserve comment :
1) To help reduce pain when working with Velocity and XML-ish things
(XHTML, XSLT, etc) you can now use 'and', 'or', 'lt', 'gt', 'le', 'ge',
eq' instead of '&&', '||', '<', '>', '<=', '>=' and '=='. So
#if ($mythingy gt $yourthingy)
...
#end
#if ($left and $right)
...
#end
2) Just because, you can now put newlines in string constants. The
following :
#set($haiku =
"
New language feature
allows newlines in the strings
might make some happy"
)
$haiku
#set($shape =
"
V V EEEEE L OOOOO CCCCC I TTTTT Y Y
V V E L O O C I T Y Y
V V EEE L O O C I T Y
VV E L O O C I T Y
V EEEEE LLLL OOOOO CCCCC I T Y
"
)
$shape
will output :
New language feature
allows newlines in the strings
might make some happy
V V EEEEE L OOOOO CCCCC I TTTTT Y Y
V V E L O O C I T Y Y
V V EEE L O O C I T Y
VV E L O O C I T Y
V EEEEE LLLL OOOOO CCCCC I T Y
As always, these aren't set in stone. Please comment. They seem to be
totally harmless, but that's why we ask people to play with things.
More the merrier.
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
geir@4quarters.com
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Re: More changes for comment : alternatives for && || etc and newlines in string literals
Posted by Will Glass-Husain <wg...@forio.com>.
What about NOT for ! ?
WILL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Geir Magnusson Jr" <ge...@4quarters.com>
To: "Velocity Developer's List List" <ve...@jakarta.apache.org>;
"Velocity Users List" <ve...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 4:33 AM
Subject: More changes for comment : alternatives for && || etc and newlines
in string literals
> There are two recent changes that deserve comment :
>
> 1) To help reduce pain when working with Velocity and XML-ish things
> (XHTML, XSLT, etc) you can now use 'and', 'or', 'lt', 'gt', 'le', 'ge',
> eq' instead of '&&', '||', '<', '>', '<=', '>=' and '=='. So
>
> #if ($mythingy gt $yourthingy)
> ...
> #end
>
> #if ($left and $right)
> ...
> #end
>
> 2) Just because, you can now put newlines in string constants. The
> following :
>
> #set($haiku =
> "
> New language feature
> allows newlines in the strings
> might make some happy"
> )
> $haiku
>
> #set($shape =
> "
> V V EEEEE L OOOOO CCCCC I TTTTT Y Y
> V V E L O O C I T Y Y
> V V EEE L O O C I T Y
> VV E L O O C I T Y
> V EEEEE LLLL OOOOO CCCCC I T Y
> "
> )
> $shape
>
> will output :
>
> New language feature
> allows newlines in the strings
> might make some happy
>
>
> V V EEEEE L OOOOO CCCCC I TTTTT Y Y
> V V E L O O C I T Y Y
> V V EEE L O O C I T Y
> VV E L O O C I T Y
> V EEEEE LLLL OOOOO CCCCC I T Y
>
>
> As always, these aren't set in stone. Please comment. They seem to be
> totally harmless, but that's why we ask people to play with things.
> More the merrier.
>
> geir
>
> --
> Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
> geir@4quarters.com
>
>
>
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Re: More changes for comment : alternatives for && || etc and newlines
in string literals
Posted by Nathan Bubna <na...@esha.com>.
Geir Magnusson Jr said:
> There are two recent changes that deserve comment :
>
> 1) To help reduce pain when working with Velocity and XML-ish things
> (XHTML, XSLT, etc) you can now use 'and', 'or', 'lt', 'gt', 'le', 'ge',
> eq' instead of '&&', '||', '<', '>', '<=', '>=' and '=='. So
>
> #if ($mythingy gt $yourthingy)
> ...
> #end
>
> #if ($left and $right)
> ...
> #end
good enough for me.
> 2) Just because, you can now put newlines in string constants. The
> following :
>
> #set($haiku =
> "
> New language feature
> allows newlines in the strings
> might make some happy"
> )
> $haiku
...
> will output :
>
> New language feature
> allows newlines in the strings
> might make some happy
...
woohoo! :)
with this i think we've finally turned newlines into ordinary whitespace
(except for with ## comments, of course). this does make me happy!
> As always, these aren't set in stone. Please comment. They seem to be
> totally harmless, but that's why we ask people to play with things.
> More the merrier.
have new toy, will play.
Nathan Bubna
nathan@esha.com
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RE: More changes for comment : alternatives for && || etc and newlines in string literals
Posted by Shawn Church <sh...@boxity.com>.
Nathan Bubna said:
> > I put the 'not' in, but it was really ugly. :)
> >
> > #if($foo and $bar)
> >
> > is nice looking
> >
> > #if( not($foo and $bar))
> >
> > strikes me as weird, for some reason.
>
> yeah, that's funky, but adding a space makes it surprisingly more
> palatable to
> me:
>
> #if ( not ($foo and $bar) )
>
> i think that would go well with
>
> #if ( not $foo and $bar ) and #if ( $foo and not $bar )
>
I tend to use silent notation in most instances, and I think
#if ( not $foo ) $!bar
might be more intuitive for non-programmers than
#if ( !$foo ) $!bar
Shawn
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Re: More changes for comment : alternatives for && || etc and newlines
in string literals
Posted by Nathan Bubna <na...@esha.com>.
Geir Magnusson Jr said:
> On Dec 30, 2003, at 9:41 AM, Peter Romianowski wrote:
> >> There are two recent changes that deserve comment :
> >> 1) To help reduce pain when working with Velocity and XML-ish things
> >> (XHTML, XSLT, etc) you can now use 'and', 'or', 'lt', 'gt', 'le',
> >> 'ge', eq' instead of '&&', '||', '<', '>', '<=', '>=' and '=='. So
> >
> > Since || or == are no problem in "XML-ish things" shouldn't there be
> > a 'not' keyword included to to make it complete? Just my $0.02 on that.
> > Generally I like the syntax. Especially 'and' and 'or' are more
> > intuitive
> > to non-programmers.
>
> I put the 'not' in, but it was really ugly. :)
>
> #if($foo and $bar)
>
> is nice looking
>
> #if( not($foo and $bar))
>
> strikes me as weird, for some reason.
yeah, that's funky, but adding a space makes it surprisingly more palatable to
me:
#if ( not ($foo and $bar) )
i think that would go well with
#if ( not $foo and $bar ) and #if ( $foo and not $bar )
Nathan Bubna
nathan@esha.com
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Re: More changes for comment : alternatives for && || etc and newlines in string literals
Posted by Denis <br...@mac.com>.
Yeah, Daniel is right.
-- Denis.
Le 30 déc. 03, à 17:22, Daniel Dekany a écrit :
> [snip]
>
> I find that natural... but, my point is that nor-here-nor-there syntax
> is the worst. Either a syntax allows you to fully forget this chiper C
> syntax (as you can't deny it for BC reasons...), or it forces C-ish
> syntax everywhere... So if 'or' can be written instead of '||', then
> 'not' should be written instead of '!'. Look, what an ugly chimera is
> this:
>
> #if( !($foo or $bar) )
>
> Naaah...
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Daniel Dekany
>
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Re: More changes for comment : alternatives for && || etc and newlines in string literals
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@4quarters.com>.
On Dec 30, 2003, at 12:22 PM, Daniel Dekany wrote:
> Tuesday, December 30, 2003, 3:53:58 PM, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>
>> On Dec 30, 2003, at 9:41 AM, Peter Romianowski wrote:
>>
>>>> There are two recent changes that deserve comment :
>>>> 1) To help reduce pain when working with Velocity and XML-ish things
>>>> (XHTML, XSLT, etc) you can now use 'and', 'or', 'lt', 'gt', 'le',
>>>> 'ge', eq' instead of '&&', '||', '<', '>', '<=', '>=' and '=='. So
>>>
>>> Since || or == are no problem in "XML-ish things" shouldn't there be
>>> a 'not' keyword included to to make it complete? Just my $0.02 on
>>> that.
>>> Generally I like the syntax. Especially 'and' and 'or' are more
>>> intuitive
>>> to non-programmers.
>>
>> I put the 'not' in, but it was really ugly. :)
>>
>> #if($foo and $bar)
>>
>> is nice looking
>>
>> #if( not($foo and $bar))
> [snip]
>
> I find that natural... but, my point is that nor-here-nor-there syntax
> is the worst. Either a syntax allows you to fully forget this chiper C
> syntax (as you can't deny it for BC reasons...), or it forces C-ish
> syntax everywhere... So if 'or' can be written instead of '||', then
> 'not' should be written instead of '!'. Look, what an ugly chimera is
> this:
>
> #if( !($foo or $bar) )
>
> Naaah...
>
Everyone! It's ok. It's not that big a deal. I left it out because of
aesthetics.
I still think it's ugly, but if people want ugly, fine [in this case]
and it is nice to have it for completelness.
It's in.
geir
> --
> Best regards,
> Daniel Dekany
>
>
>
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>
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
geir@4quarters.com
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Re: More changes for comment : alternatives for && || etc and newlines in string literals
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@4quarters.com>.
On Dec 30, 2003, at 2:22 PM, Andy Lee wrote:
> Brad Cox wrote:
>
>> Why is not($foo or $bar) worse than !($foo || $bar)? One caters to
>> non programmers, the other to programmers. Why shouldn't the optional
>> spellings satisfy both groups?
>
>
> While we're catering to non-programmers, how about these?
>
> #if( neither $foo nor $bar )
>
> #if( $foo and/or $bar )
>
> #if( either $foo or $bar ) ## Equivalent to and/or.
>
> #if( either $foo or $bar but not both ) ## Plain English instead
> ## of "xor".
>
> --Andy (only half kidding)
>
Bite me.
-- geir (only half kidding too)
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
geir@4quarters.com
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Re: More changes for comment : alternatives for && || etc and newlines
in string literals
Posted by Andy Lee <ag...@earthlink.net>.
Will Glass-Husain wrote:
>Amusing. The problem of course, is that casual use of "and", "or" in
>English have different meanings than formal programming.
>
Yup, not only different, but ambiguous, which they never are in
programming. Given the right mix of people, the following hilarity
could ensue:
BOSS: Hey, Designers, add a smiley to the green and blue items on your
templates.
DESIGNER ONE: Okay:
## This smilifies items that are green and blue,
## as Boss requested.
#if( $item.isGreen() && item.isBlue() )
:)
#end
DESIGNER TWO: Okay:
## This smilifies the green items and the blue items,
## as Boss requested.
#if( $item.isGreen() || item.isBlue() )
:)
#end
Of course, if communication is that sloppy, you've got bigger problems
on your project than misplaced smilies...
> The use of the
>word "or" usually means the operator XOR, for example, while "and/or" means
>OR.
>
>"Would you like paper or plastic, sir?"
>
>
True, an "or" question in English usually implies XOR, but it's fuzzy.
In your example, if I answer "paper" and the cashier gives me both paper
AND plastic, I might feel he didn't honor my request, which implicitly
told him I have reasons for being against plastic.
On the other hand, if Santa asks "Do you want a bike or a pony?" and
gives me both, I will probably feel he honored my request very well.
But I may just possibly be digressing...
--Andy
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Re: More changes for comment : alternatives for && || etc and newlines in string literals
Posted by Will Glass-Husain <wg...@forio.com>.
Amusing. The problem of course, is that casual use of "and", "or" in
English have different meanings than formal programming. The use of the
word "or" usually means the operator XOR, for example, while "and/or" means
OR.
"Would you like paper or plastic, sir?"
WILL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Lee" <ag...@earthlink.net>
To: "Velocity Users List" <ve...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: More changes for comment : alternatives for && || etc and
newlines in string literals
> Brad Cox wrote:
>
> > Why is not($foo or $bar) worse than !($foo || $bar)? One caters to non
> > programmers, the other to programmers. Why shouldn't the optional
> > spellings satisfy both groups?
>
>
> While we're catering to non-programmers, how about these?
>
> #if( neither $foo nor $bar )
>
> #if( $foo and/or $bar )
>
> #if( either $foo or $bar ) ## Equivalent to and/or.
>
> #if( either $foo or $bar but not both ) ## Plain English instead
> ## of "xor".
>
> --Andy (only half kidding)
>
>
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Re: More changes for comment : alternatives for && || etc and newlines
in string literals
Posted by Andy Lee <ag...@earthlink.net>.
Brad Cox wrote:
> Why is not($foo or $bar) worse than !($foo || $bar)? One caters to non
> programmers, the other to programmers. Why shouldn't the optional
> spellings satisfy both groups?
While we're catering to non-programmers, how about these?
#if( neither $foo nor $bar )
#if( $foo and/or $bar )
#if( either $foo or $bar ) ## Equivalent to and/or.
#if( either $foo or $bar but not both ) ## Plain English instead
## of "xor".
--Andy (only half kidding)
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Re: More changes for comment : alternatives for && || etc and newlines in string literals
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@4quarters.com>.
On Dec 31, 2003, at 1:13 AM, Daniel Dekany wrote:
> Tuesday, December 30, 2003, 6:51:06 PM, Brad Cox wrote:
>
>> At 6:22 PM +0100 12/30/03, Daniel Dekany wrote:
>>> #if( not($foo and $bar))
>>> #if( !($foo or $bar) )
>>>
>>> Naaah...
>>
>> Sorry, I'm not following these objections at all. Why is not($foo or
>> $bar) worse than !($foo || $bar)? One caters to non programmers, the
>> other to programmers. Why shouldn't the optional spellings satisfy
>> both groups?
>
> I exactly wanted to say, that 'not' should be introduced as well, not
> only 'and' and 'or'.
It has been. 'not' works now.
>
> (But IMO the best would be if '!', '&&', etc. does not exist at all,
> but
> that's not possible anyway, you know, that dread BC...)
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Daniel Dekany
>
>
>
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>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
geir@4quarters.com
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Re: More changes for comment : alternatives for && || etc and newlines in string literals
Posted by Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu>.
Tuesday, December 30, 2003, 6:51:06 PM, Brad Cox wrote:
> At 6:22 PM +0100 12/30/03, Daniel Dekany wrote:
>>#if( not($foo and $bar))
>>#if( !($foo or $bar) )
>>
>>Naaah...
>
> Sorry, I'm not following these objections at all. Why is not($foo or
> $bar) worse than !($foo || $bar)? One caters to non programmers, the
> other to programmers. Why shouldn't the optional spellings satisfy
> both groups?
I exactly wanted to say, that 'not' should be introduced as well, not
only 'and' and 'or'.
(But IMO the best would be if '!', '&&', etc. does not exist at all, but
that's not possible anyway, you know, that dread BC...)
--
Best regards,
Daniel Dekany
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Re: More changes for comment : alternatives for && || etc and
newlines in string literals
Posted by Brad Cox <bc...@virtualschool.edu>.
At 6:22 PM +0100 12/30/03, Daniel Dekany wrote:
>#if( not($foo and $bar))
>#if( !($foo or $bar) )
>
>Naaah...
Sorry, I'm not following these objections at all. Why is not($foo or
$bar) worse than !($foo || $bar)? One caters to non programmers, the
other to programmers. Why shouldn't the optional spellings satisfy
both groups?
--
Brad J. Cox, PhD, 703 361 4751, http://virtualschool.edu
http://virtualschool.edu/mybank Digital Rights Management System
http://virtualschool.edu/jco Java Cryptographic Objects (JCO)
http://virtualschool.edu/jwaa Java Web Application Architecture (JWAA)
http://virtualschool.edu/java+ Java Preprocessor (Java+)
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Re: More changes for comment : alternatives for && || etc and newlines in string literals
Posted by Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu>.
Tuesday, December 30, 2003, 3:53:58 PM, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
> On Dec 30, 2003, at 9:41 AM, Peter Romianowski wrote:
>
>>> There are two recent changes that deserve comment :
>>> 1) To help reduce pain when working with Velocity and XML-ish things
>>> (XHTML, XSLT, etc) you can now use 'and', 'or', 'lt', 'gt', 'le',
>>> 'ge', eq' instead of '&&', '||', '<', '>', '<=', '>=' and '=='. So
>>
>> Since || or == are no problem in "XML-ish things" shouldn't there be
>> a 'not' keyword included to to make it complete? Just my $0.02 on that.
>> Generally I like the syntax. Especially 'and' and 'or' are more
>> intuitive
>> to non-programmers.
>
> I put the 'not' in, but it was really ugly. :)
>
> #if($foo and $bar)
>
> is nice looking
>
> #if( not($foo and $bar))
[snip]
I find that natural... but, my point is that nor-here-nor-there syntax
is the worst. Either a syntax allows you to fully forget this chiper C
syntax (as you can't deny it for BC reasons...), or it forces C-ish
syntax everywhere... So if 'or' can be written instead of '||', then
'not' should be written instead of '!'. Look, what an ugly chimera is
this:
#if( !($foo or $bar) )
Naaah...
--
Best regards,
Daniel Dekany
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Re: More changes for comment : alternatives for && || etc and newlines in string literals
Posted by Denis <br...@mac.com>.
Hey Geir,
Le 30 déc. 03, à 14:53, Geir Magnusson Jr a écrit :
> I put the 'not' in, but it was really ugly. :)
>
> #if($foo and $bar)
>
> is nice looking
>
> #if( not($foo and $bar))
>
>
> strikes me as weird, for some reason.
Maybe an operator #ifnot would help?
#ifnot($foo and $bar)
Cheers,
-- Denis.
> It's most likely some weird programmer bias, because of the
> 'structural' difference between an operator that sits between
>
> A <op> B
>
> and an operator that 'is applied to'
>
> <op> A
>
> I'm neutral on technical grounds, and pretty ambivalent on the
> aesthetic ones.
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RE: More changes for comment : alternatives for && || etc and newlines in string literals
Posted by Tim Colson <tc...@cisco.com>.
Recap: Peter suggested adding a 'not' keyword for completeness, but Geir
thought it "really ugly" and :
> #if( not($foo and $bar))
> strikes [Geir] as weird, for some reason.
But if to a non-programmer, they are not wired to read "!" as "not", so
#if( !($foo and $bar)) might read "if it exclaims (foo and bar)" instead
of "#if not (foo and bar)".
+1 on adding "not" :-)
Cheers,
Timo
...meanwhile, I'll still KISS and pull that funky expression up into the
context-setting java and give the template author this to chew on: #if
($unavailable)
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Re: More changes for comment : alternatives for && || etc and newlines in string literals
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@4quarters.com>.
On Dec 30, 2003, at 9:41 AM, Peter Romianowski wrote:
>> There are two recent changes that deserve comment :
>> 1) To help reduce pain when working with Velocity and XML-ish things
>> (XHTML, XSLT, etc) you can now use 'and', 'or', 'lt', 'gt', 'le',
>> 'ge', eq' instead of '&&', '||', '<', '>', '<=', '>=' and '=='. So
>
> Since || or == are no problem in "XML-ish things" shouldn't there be
> a 'not' keyword included to to make it complete? Just my $0.02 on that.
> Generally I like the syntax. Especially 'and' and 'or' are more
> intuitive
> to non-programmers.
I put the 'not' in, but it was really ugly. :)
#if($foo and $bar)
is nice looking
#if( not($foo and $bar))
strikes me as weird, for some reason. It's most likely some weird
programmer bias, because of the 'structural' difference between an
operator that sits between
A <op> B
and an operator that 'is applied to'
<op> A
I'm neutral on technical grounds, and pretty ambivalent on the
aesthetic ones.
>
>> will output :
>> New language feature
>> allows newlines in the strings
>> might make some happy
>
> This statement is definitely true ;)
>
> Regards,
> Peter
>
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>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
geir@4quarters.com
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Re: More changes for comment : alternatives for && || etc and newlines
in string literals
Posted by Peter Romianowski <an...@gmx.de>.
> There are two recent changes that deserve comment :
>
> 1) To help reduce pain when working with Velocity and XML-ish things
> (XHTML, XSLT, etc) you can now use 'and', 'or', 'lt', 'gt', 'le', 'ge',
> eq' instead of '&&', '||', '<', '>', '<=', '>=' and '=='. So
Since || or == are no problem in "XML-ish things" shouldn't there be
a 'not' keyword included to to make it complete? Just my $0.02 on that.
Generally I like the syntax. Especially 'and' and 'or' are more intuitive
to non-programmers.
> will output :
>
> New language feature
> allows newlines in the strings
> might make some happy
This statement is definitely true ;)
Regards,
Peter
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