The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com>]

Hi all,

I think we need clarity on what we want to do with each of the mailing
lists and who should be on them,

My understand is that there are, at least initially, these:

- one for the PPMC
- one for developers working on Apache NetBeans
- one for users making use of Apache NetBeans

If not correct, please correct me on this.

Then a next question becomes -- who will be on the PPMC. If we say that
everyone on the initial committers list will be on the PPMC, then what is
the difference between the mailing list for PPMC and the mailing list for
developers.

Thanks and really cool that we're at this point of the process already.

Gj

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Emmanuel Lécharny <el...@gmail.com>]

Le 07/10/16 � 10:05, Bertrand Delacretaz a �crit :
> On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 10:00 AM, Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
>> ...There's probably also privacy laws to consider here. We'd be letting a
>> commercial entity hand over metadata to another organization. IANAL but
>> that could have implications....
> Good point, bulk migration of list subscribers is not a good idea with
> this in mind.

I don't think any of the incubated project have done a bulk migration of
emails. It does not make a lot of sense.

People wo care will subscribe. Other just don't care...

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>]

BTW, it seems NetBeans sub-projects may have their own mailing lists. There
are 60 project: https://netbeans.org/projects/

So, it would be better if some NetBeans admin would provide a full list of
mailing lists instead.

For example, users@cnd.netbeans.org, has some activity
https://netbeans.org/projects/cnd/lists/users/archive/2016-11/

There's also edu.netbeans.org, etc.



--emi

On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:35 PM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> > Can it be moved to be a child of "Apache Transition"?
>
> Sure, you can move it. If you can't, I'll login later and move it myself.
>
> > I suggest using a blog for those weekly news
>
> That's also good. What's important is the content and providing people a
> semi-automated way of getting NetBeans news. A blog + RSS is also good, and
> we could hook it up into NetBeans' Start Page that's shown at the IDE
> startup.
>
> @Geertjan: what about everything else? Could you get in touch with the
> current mailing list admins and start work on the mailing lists I've marked
> as READ-ONLY?
>
> After actually looking at the traffic I don't think this migration will be
> as painful as I assumed.
>
> One thing I've noticed is that forum-posted email messages don't have
> attachments but links to forum URLs (I assume for security reasons). So
> when we turn off the forums some historical attachments will be lost.
>
>
>
> --emi
>
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 11:40 AM, Geertjan Wielenga <
> geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:14 PM Emilian Bold wrote:
>>
>> I have just created
>>
>>
>> Great. Can it be moved to be a child of "Apache Transition"? Yes, that
>> will
>> change the URL, though that doesn't matter very much right now since no
>> one
>> is linking to it and it's just discussed in this thread right now.
>>
>> I think we should consider Bertrand's suggestion re a blog for the weekly
>> news, i.e., also with the aim of doing things in as default Apache
>> approach
>> as possible.
>>
>> Gj
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:27 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
>> bdelacretaz@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:14 PM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> > > ...I don't know what will happen to nbweekly@ under Apache...
>> >
>> > I suggest using a blog for those weekly news, it's a very nice way to
>> > document the project's history. And you can then  just send the URLs
>> > of those blog posts to as many places are desired without duplicating
>> > anything.
>> >
>> > NetBeans can get a blog at https://blogs.apache.org/ or the blog might
>> > just be a section of the upcoming netbeans.apache.org website. And
>> > there's also https://comments.apache.org
>> >
>> > -Bertrand
>> >
>>
>
>

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>]

> Can it be moved to be a child of "Apache Transition"?

Sure, you can move it. If you can't, I'll login later and move it myself.

> I suggest using a blog for those weekly news

That's also good. What's important is the content and providing people a
semi-automated way of getting NetBeans news. A blog + RSS is also good, and
we could hook it up into NetBeans' Start Page that's shown at the IDE
startup.

@Geertjan: what about everything else? Could you get in touch with the
current mailing list admins and start work on the mailing lists I've marked
as READ-ONLY?

After actually looking at the traffic I don't think this migration will be
as painful as I assumed.

One thing I've noticed is that forum-posted email messages don't have
attachments but links to forum URLs (I assume for security reasons). So
when we turn off the forums some historical attachments will be lost.



--emi

On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 11:40 AM, Geertjan Wielenga <
geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:14 PM Emilian Bold wrote:
>
> I have just created
>
>
> Great. Can it be moved to be a child of "Apache Transition"? Yes, that will
> change the URL, though that doesn't matter very much right now since no one
> is linking to it and it's just discussed in this thread right now.
>
> I think we should consider Bertrand's suggestion re a blog for the weekly
> news, i.e., also with the aim of doing things in as default Apache approach
> as possible.
>
> Gj
>
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:27 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> bdelacretaz@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:14 PM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > ...I don't know what will happen to nbweekly@ under Apache...
> >
> > I suggest using a blog for those weekly news, it's a very nice way to
> > document the project's history. And you can then  just send the URLs
> > of those blog posts to as many places are desired without duplicating
> > anything.
> >
> > NetBeans can get a blog at https://blogs.apache.org/ or the blog might
> > just be a section of the upcoming netbeans.apache.org website. And
> > there's also https://comments.apache.org
> >
> > -Bertrand
> >
>

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com>]

On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:14 PM Emilian Bold wrote:

I have just created


Great. Can it be moved to be a child of "Apache Transition"? Yes, that will
change the URL, though that doesn't matter very much right now since no one
is linking to it and it's just discussed in this thread right now.

I think we should consider Bertrand's suggestion re a blog for the weekly
news, i.e., also with the aim of doing things in as default Apache approach
as possible.

Gj

On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:27 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
bdelacretaz@apache.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:14 PM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > ...I don't know what will happen to nbweekly@ under Apache...
>
> I suggest using a blog for those weekly news, it's a very nice way to
> document the project's history. And you can then  just send the URLs
> of those blog posts to as many places are desired without duplicating
> anything.
>
> NetBeans can get a blog at https://blogs.apache.org/ or the blog might
> just be a section of the upcoming netbeans.apache.org website. And
> there's also https://comments.apache.org
>
> -Bertrand
>

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

Hi,

On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:14 PM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...I don't know what will happen to nbweekly@ under Apache...

I suggest using a blog for those weekly news, it's a very nice way to
document the project's history. And you can then  just send the URLs
of those blog posts to as many places are desired without duplicating
anything.

NetBeans can get a blog at https://blogs.apache.org/ or the blog might
just be a section of the upcoming netbeans.apache.org website. And
there's also https://comments.apache.org

-Bertrand

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>]

I have just created
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists+migration
with
a table describing all the existing NetBeans mailing lists,  as well as a
next action recommendation based on the traffic I saw on the archives.

There are a lot of lists with no traffic that we could immediately make
read-only. A standard message should be created and sent to the list to
notify the list is closed and a pointer to the Apache list.

I also believe we can do an orderly migration of netcat@netbeans.org and
nbdev@netbeans.org. These are contributor mailing lists so we can begin
announcing the migration and just check for the next months that we have no
discussion there. We should also set a deadline for these lists to become
read-only (say, 3 months from the 1st announcement?).

We should place announcements on the other mailing lists as well but set a
longer read-only dead-line perhaps?

I believe we need an announce@ mailing list for people that only use
nbannounce@ (how many are there?)

I don't know what will happen to nbweekly@ under Apache. @Geertjan: I
assume you managed it mostly alone? I think it's a valuable list, we should
preserve it under Apache.



--emi

On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 1:50 AM, Bruno Flávio <br...@apache.org> wrote:

> On 06/10/16 13:39, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
> > users: those using NetBeans IDE or building on top of the NetBeans
> > application framework, using tags, e.g., [PLATFORM] or [JAVASCRIPT] etc.
> Perhaps a good way to encourage the use of the tags would be to
> customize the subscription confirmation email with a link to the wiki
> and the general expectations about how the mailing list should be used.
>
> i.e.:
> Thank you for subscribing the users@netbeans.apache.org mailing list.
> Many discussions happen on this list at once, as such we strongly
> recommend that you take a few minutes to read [WIKI LINK]. Following
> those guidelines increases the user experience and improves the odds of
> maintaining efficient and helpful conversations.
>
> Don't forget to add one or more tags to the subject line. For example,
> if you have a question about groovy support in Apache NetBeans, start
> the subject line with  [GROOVY].
>
>
> -Bruno
>
>

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Bruno Flávio <br...@apache.org>]

On 06/10/16 13:39, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
> users: those using NetBeans IDE or building on top of the NetBeans
> application framework, using tags, e.g., [PLATFORM] or [JAVASCRIPT] etc.
Perhaps a good way to encourage the use of the tags would be to
customize the subscription confirmation email with a link to the wiki
and the general expectations about how the mailing list should be used.

i.e.:
Thank you for subscribing the users@netbeans.apache.org mailing list.
Many discussions happen on this list at once, as such we strongly
recommend that you take a few minutes to read [WIKI LINK]. Following
those guidelines increases the user experience and improves the odds of
maintaining efficient and helpful conversations.

Don't forget to add one or more tags to the subject line. For example,
if you have a question about groovy support in Apache NetBeans, start
the subject line with  [GROOVY].


-Bruno

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>]

I don't remember having to re-register on all the @netbeans.org mailing
lists when Oracle bought Sun Microsystems. And they had to wait for
regulatory approval from the EU and US for this merger to go through afaik.


--emi

On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org> wrote:

> On 10/07/2016 09:51 AM, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
> > Personally, I'm not sure about bulk subscriptions. I'd prefer it, right
> > now, i.e., until further insights changes my perspective, everyone
> > explicitly would chose for joining an Apache NetBeans mailing list. Yes,
> > that will have an impact etc but the bulk option has disadvantages too.
> >
> > I agree also with the idea of migrating in pieces, i.e., developers
> first,
> > then wait for the dust to settle, then the next group, then wait for dust
> > settling, then next etc.
>
> There's probably also privacy laws to consider here. We'd be letting a
> commercial entity hand over metadata to another organization. IANAL but
> that could have implications.
>
> With regards,
> Daniel.
> >
> > Gj
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> bdelacretaz@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 3:24 PM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>> ...I assume we will also automatically migrate users? Because if we
> >>> only ask a lot of people will not notice this and basically be silently
> >>> dropped (for example, people might lurk on nbannounce@netbeans.org or
> >> just
> >>> nbweekly@netbeans.org)....
> >>
> >> Bulk subscriptions are possible with the help of our infra team I
> suppose.
> >>
> >> You would need very clear communications on the existing lists
> >> however, so that people understand what's going on.
> >>
> >> Ideally auto-responders on the existing lists which point to an
> >> apache.org page that explains the transition.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Then, once out of incubation, we will migrate again from @
> >>> netbeans.incubator.apache.org to @netbeans.apache.org?
> >>>
> >>
> >> Yes but that's seamless, redirects are automatic.
> >>
> >>> And perhaps in a few years go back to the proper @netbeans.org mailing
> >>> lists?
> >>
> >> I don't see why.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Now that I think about it, is there a particular reason we cannot have
> >> the
> >>> Apache infra serve the existing @netbeans.org mailing lists?
> >>>
> >>
> >> If NetBeans becomes an Apache project it lives at apache.org. The ASF
> >> is not just a hosting organization, it's a community of communities
> >> who lives out of sponsorshing money and as such branding is important.
> >>
> >>>> ...1a. Ask the above to use tags and very clear subject lines in their
> >> mails
> >>> to the unified mailing list.
> >>>
> >>> I very much doubt people will learn this. A lot of users@ have short
> >>> interactions, they will not learn the tagging rule, just pick a mailing
> >>> list and go with it....
> >>
> >> If they pick the users list I suppose that won't be too bad.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Also, could we try a staged approach for this migration? We sort the
> >> lists
> >>> by number or users / activity and start migrating the smallest ones
> first
> >>> and leave the largest last?...
> >>
> >> I suggest migrating developers first and users later, once the dust
> >> settles.
> >>
> >> -Bertrand
> >>
> >
>
>

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 10:00 AM, Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...There's probably also privacy laws to consider here. We'd be letting a
> commercial entity hand over metadata to another organization. IANAL but
> that could have implications....

Good point, bulk migration of list subscribers is not a good idea with
this in mind.

-Bertrand

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org>]

On 10/07/2016 09:51 AM, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
> Personally, I'm not sure about bulk subscriptions. I'd prefer it, right
> now, i.e., until further insights changes my perspective, everyone
> explicitly would chose for joining an Apache NetBeans mailing list. Yes,
> that will have an impact etc but the bulk option has disadvantages too.
> 
> I agree also with the idea of migrating in pieces, i.e., developers first,
> then wait for the dust to settle, then the next group, then wait for dust
> settling, then next etc.

There's probably also privacy laws to consider here. We'd be letting a
commercial entity hand over metadata to another organization. IANAL but
that could have implications.

With regards,
Daniel.
> 
> Gj
> 
> On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 3:24 PM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> ...I assume we will also automatically migrate users? Because if we
>>> only ask a lot of people will not notice this and basically be silently
>>> dropped (for example, people might lurk on nbannounce@netbeans.org or
>> just
>>> nbweekly@netbeans.org)....
>>
>> Bulk subscriptions are possible with the help of our infra team I suppose.
>>
>> You would need very clear communications on the existing lists
>> however, so that people understand what's going on.
>>
>> Ideally auto-responders on the existing lists which point to an
>> apache.org page that explains the transition.
>>
>>>
>>> Then, once out of incubation, we will migrate again from @
>>> netbeans.incubator.apache.org to @netbeans.apache.org?
>>>
>>
>> Yes but that's seamless, redirects are automatic.
>>
>>> And perhaps in a few years go back to the proper @netbeans.org mailing
>>> lists?
>>
>> I don't see why.
>>
>>>
>>> Now that I think about it, is there a particular reason we cannot have
>> the
>>> Apache infra serve the existing @netbeans.org mailing lists?
>>>
>>
>> If NetBeans becomes an Apache project it lives at apache.org. The ASF
>> is not just a hosting organization, it's a community of communities
>> who lives out of sponsorshing money and as such branding is important.
>>
>>>> ...1a. Ask the above to use tags and very clear subject lines in their
>> mails
>>> to the unified mailing list.
>>>
>>> I very much doubt people will learn this. A lot of users@ have short
>>> interactions, they will not learn the tagging rule, just pick a mailing
>>> list and go with it....
>>
>> If they pick the users list I suppose that won't be too bad.
>>
>>>
>>> Also, could we try a staged approach for this migration? We sort the
>> lists
>>> by number or users / activity and start migrating the smallest ones first
>>> and leave the largest last?...
>>
>> I suggest migrating developers first and users later, once the dust
>> settles.
>>
>> -Bertrand
>>
> 

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 5:20 PM, Geertjan Wielenga
<ge...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> ...I really like the Apache approach of
> discussing and reaching consensus [or, beating a topic to death, maybe] in
> this way....

Glad that you enjoy it!

Doing this on mailing lists requires discipline, one topic per thread,
Precise Quoting (tm) etc. but IMO it works very well for the kind of
slow collective thinking that's required to come up with good
solutions to complex problems.

-Bertrand

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com>]

On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 2:27 PM, Bruno Souza wrote:


> There is another thing also: the sentiment of belonging. We are a separated
> community, and the more we insist in do what we always did (we start with
> domains and mailing lists, but pretty soon we will be wanting to keep our
> processes and more...) the harder will be for us to accept belonging to
> Apache and be accepted also.


Agree absolutely -- and also with the earlier comments in this thread by
Hermien and others.

The defaults, we'll take them -- and see as we go from there.

And this discussion is great, I really like the Apache approach of
discussing and reaching consensus [or, beating a topic to death, maybe] in
this way. The more we discuss, the more aligned we're becoming.

Gj


On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 3:37 PM, Wade Chandler <co...@wadechandler.com>
wrote:

> On Oct 7, 2016 8:39 AM, "Emilian Bold" <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > There is another thing also: the sentiment of belonging.
> >
> > This is a really good point Bruno.
> >
> > My point is that it's much simpler for contributors to join Apache. We
> just
> > use another mailing list, use another repository URL for commits, etc.
> >
> > But, we have 1.5 million users. And the website, the forums, the mailing
> > lists, the wikis are for them too. And we have to do this transition
> really
> > well.
> >
>
> All of this is IMHO...
>
> I agree with this. I think the points Bertrand and Bruno make are spot on,
> but we have to transition well for the users or IMO it won't be a success,
> and with that many it can be hard.
>
> I do think giving notices and transitioning people will work however. I
> think as has been stated by Gj, let's get the base lists up, and the Wiki,
> then we can get docs up, those help users, even finding lists, processes,
> etc. Then the static site. At the same time dev starts to happen on the
> Apache lists. The users continue where they are.
>
> Once the site and wiki are here, we can link to where downloads are etc, in
> the interim, and start to redirect things here (Apache). Then the code
> migration and development processes can be phased in as that really looks
> to be the most difficult part to me per the repository talks.
>
> All the while, we can redirect users to come here for lists, and add a
> header notice or something to all NetBeans.org mailing lists while those
> lists continue to work, and then for a period there will be a dual reality
> Apache and NetBeans.org mailing lists. One day those NB.org lists auto
> reply they are no longer where users should go, and their message will not
> be delivered. I think by the time that happens most will have moved over.
> After that, they certainly will, and is about as seemless as one can hope.
>
> Wade
>

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Wade Chandler <co...@wadechandler.com>]

On Oct 7, 2016 8:39 AM, "Emilian Bold" <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > There is another thing also: the sentiment of belonging.
>
> This is a really good point Bruno.
>
> My point is that it's much simpler for contributors to join Apache. We
just
> use another mailing list, use another repository URL for commits, etc.
>
> But, we have 1.5 million users. And the website, the forums, the mailing
> lists, the wikis are for them too. And we have to do this transition
really
> well.
>

All of this is IMHO...

I agree with this. I think the points Bertrand and Bruno make are spot on,
but we have to transition well for the users or IMO it won't be a success,
and with that many it can be hard.

I do think giving notices and transitioning people will work however. I
think as has been stated by Gj, let's get the base lists up, and the Wiki,
then we can get docs up, those help users, even finding lists, processes,
etc. Then the static site. At the same time dev starts to happen on the
Apache lists. The users continue where they are.

Once the site and wiki are here, we can link to where downloads are etc, in
the interim, and start to redirect things here (Apache). Then the code
migration and development processes can be phased in as that really looks
to be the most difficult part to me per the repository talks.

All the while, we can redirect users to come here for lists, and add a
header notice or something to all NetBeans.org mailing lists while those
lists continue to work, and then for a period there will be a dual reality
Apache and NetBeans.org mailing lists. One day those NB.org lists auto
reply they are no longer where users should go, and their message will not
be delivered. I think by the time that happens most will have moved over.
After that, they certainly will, and is about as seemless as one can hope.

Wade

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>]

> There is another thing also: the sentiment of belonging.

This is a really good point Bruno.

My point is that it's much simpler for contributors to join Apache. We just
use another mailing list, use another repository URL for commits, etc.

But, we have 1.5 million users. And the website, the forums, the mailing
lists, the wikis are for them too. And we have to do this transition really
well.




--emi

On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 3:27 PM, Bruno Souza <br...@javaman.com.br> wrote:

> Two things:
>
> +1 to migration of the lists happening non-automatically and devs first.
> +1 to starting with default Apache lists
>
> I agree with Bertrand: the Apache brand is important for the Foundation,
> and we should have the mindset to move towards everything .apache.org.
>
> There is another thing also: the sentiment of belonging. We are a separated
> community, and the more we insist in do what we always did (we start with
> domains and mailing lists, but pretty soon we will be wanting to keep our
> processes and more...) the harder will be for us to accept belonging to
> Apache and be accepted also.
>
> Yes, the netbeans.org domain will be owned by Apache, that can then set up
> the correct redirections, and the search engines can deal with that easily.
>
> But I do favor that we become netbeans.apache.org. The faster we do it,
> the
> less impact we will have.
>
> Cheers!
> Bruno.
>
> Bruno.
> ______________________________________________________________________
> Bruno Peres Ferreira de Souza                         Brazil's JavaMan
> http://www.javaman.com.br                      bruno at javaman.com.br
>      if I fail, if I succeed, at least I live as I believe
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 6:24 AM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > > Provided netbeans.org gets donated to the ASF
> >
> > ASF will get the domain, it's part of the proposal:
> >
> > Oracle owns trademark registrations for the NetBeans mark in the U.S. and
> > > EU, and would donate those, including the name "NetBeans" and the "
> > > netbeans.org" domain, to the Apache Foundation, along with other
> > > artifacts, including the U.S. copyright registrations related to
> > NetBeans.
> > > The trademark and copyright transfers would be detailed in separate
> > > documents.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --emi
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 12:22 PM, Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On 10/07/2016 11:20 AM, Emilian Bold wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Then, once out of incubation, we will migrate again from @
> > > >>> netbeans.incubator.apache.org to @netbeans.apache.org?
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >> Yes but that's seamless, redirects are automatic.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > But I wonder, will all the Gmail and email client filters still work
> > > > automatically?
> > > >
> > > > Even with automatic redirects people will suddenly find themselves
> with
> > > all
> > > > the mailing list emails in the inbox because the filters won't match
> > > > netbeans.incubator.apache.org anymore.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>> And perhaps in a few years go back to the proper @netbeans.org
> > mailing
> > > >>> lists?
> > > >>
> > > >> I don't see why.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > Why not? netbeans.org is a very visited site, easy to remember and
> > it's
> > > > what we used until now.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Now that I think about it, is there a particular reason we cannot
> > have
> > > >> the
> > > >>> Apache infra serve the existing @netbeans.org mailing lists?
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >> If NetBeans becomes an Apache project it lives at apache.org. The
> ASF
> > > >> is not just a hosting organization, it's a community of communities
> > > >> who lives out of sponsorshing money and as such branding is
> important.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > So no Apache project has a distinct website and branding?
> > >
> > > Provided netbeans.org gets donated to the ASF, it would likely serve
> as
> > > the user-facing web site, whereas netbeans.apache.org would be the
> > > _project_ web site (iow the developer-facing site).
> > >
> > > See cloudstack.org, openoffice.org etc - we do support and use other
> > > domains, just not for mailing lists.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > When Microsoft did Xbox they used xbox.com, not xbox.microsoft.com.
> > > >
> > > > Being too hard on this migration will diminish a lot of the NetBeans
> > > brand
> > > > value not to mention search engine ranking.
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >>> Also, could we try a staged approach for this migration? We sort
> the
> > > >> lists
> > > >>> by number or users / activity and start migrating the smallest ones
> > > first
> > > >>> and leave the largest last?...
> > > >>
> > > >> I suggest migrating developers first and users later, once the dust
> > > >> settles.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I agree.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Bruno Souza <br...@javaman.com.br>]

Two things:

+1 to migration of the lists happening non-automatically and devs first.
+1 to starting with default Apache lists

I agree with Bertrand: the Apache brand is important for the Foundation,
and we should have the mindset to move towards everything .apache.org.

There is another thing also: the sentiment of belonging. We are a separated
community, and the more we insist in do what we always did (we start with
domains and mailing lists, but pretty soon we will be wanting to keep our
processes and more...) the harder will be for us to accept belonging to
Apache and be accepted also.

Yes, the netbeans.org domain will be owned by Apache, that can then set up
the correct redirections, and the search engines can deal with that easily.

But I do favor that we become netbeans.apache.org. The faster we do it, the
less impact we will have.

Cheers!
Bruno.

Bruno.
______________________________________________________________________
Bruno Peres Ferreira de Souza                         Brazil's JavaMan
http://www.javaman.com.br                      bruno at javaman.com.br
     if I fail, if I succeed, at least I live as I believe


On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 6:24 AM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Provided netbeans.org gets donated to the ASF
>
> ASF will get the domain, it's part of the proposal:
>
> Oracle owns trademark registrations for the NetBeans mark in the U.S. and
> > EU, and would donate those, including the name "NetBeans" and the "
> > netbeans.org" domain, to the Apache Foundation, along with other
> > artifacts, including the U.S. copyright registrations related to
> NetBeans.
> > The trademark and copyright transfers would be detailed in separate
> > documents.
>
>
>
>
> --emi
>
> On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 12:22 PM, Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> > On 10/07/2016 11:20 AM, Emilian Bold wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>> Then, once out of incubation, we will migrate again from @
> > >>> netbeans.incubator.apache.org to @netbeans.apache.org?
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> Yes but that's seamless, redirects are automatic.
> > >>
> > >
> > > But I wonder, will all the Gmail and email client filters still work
> > > automatically?
> > >
> > > Even with automatic redirects people will suddenly find themselves with
> > all
> > > the mailing list emails in the inbox because the filters won't match
> > > netbeans.incubator.apache.org anymore.
> > >
> > >
> > >>> And perhaps in a few years go back to the proper @netbeans.org
> mailing
> > >>> lists?
> > >>
> > >> I don't see why.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Why not? netbeans.org is a very visited site, easy to remember and
> it's
> > > what we used until now.
> > >
> > >
> > >>>
> > >>> Now that I think about it, is there a particular reason we cannot
> have
> > >> the
> > >>> Apache infra serve the existing @netbeans.org mailing lists?
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> If NetBeans becomes an Apache project it lives at apache.org. The ASF
> > >> is not just a hosting organization, it's a community of communities
> > >> who lives out of sponsorshing money and as such branding is important.
> > >>
> > >
> > > So no Apache project has a distinct website and branding?
> >
> > Provided netbeans.org gets donated to the ASF, it would likely serve as
> > the user-facing web site, whereas netbeans.apache.org would be the
> > _project_ web site (iow the developer-facing site).
> >
> > See cloudstack.org, openoffice.org etc - we do support and use other
> > domains, just not for mailing lists.
> >
> > >
> > > When Microsoft did Xbox they used xbox.com, not xbox.microsoft.com.
> > >
> > > Being too hard on this migration will diminish a lot of the NetBeans
> > brand
> > > value not to mention search engine ranking.
> > >
> > >>
> > >>> Also, could we try a staged approach for this migration? We sort the
> > >> lists
> > >>> by number or users / activity and start migrating the smallest ones
> > first
> > >>> and leave the largest last?...
> > >>
> > >> I suggest migrating developers first and users later, once the dust
> > >> settles.
> > >
> > >
> > > I agree.
> > >
> >
> >
>

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>]

> Provided netbeans.org gets donated to the ASF

ASF will get the domain, it's part of the proposal:

Oracle owns trademark registrations for the NetBeans mark in the U.S. and
> EU, and would donate those, including the name "NetBeans" and the "
> netbeans.org" domain, to the Apache Foundation, along with other
> artifacts, including the U.S. copyright registrations related to NetBeans.
> The trademark and copyright transfers would be detailed in separate
> documents.




--emi

On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 12:22 PM, Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org> wrote:

> On 10/07/2016 11:20 AM, Emilian Bold wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Then, once out of incubation, we will migrate again from @
> >>> netbeans.incubator.apache.org to @netbeans.apache.org?
> >>>
> >>
> >> Yes but that's seamless, redirects are automatic.
> >>
> >
> > But I wonder, will all the Gmail and email client filters still work
> > automatically?
> >
> > Even with automatic redirects people will suddenly find themselves with
> all
> > the mailing list emails in the inbox because the filters won't match
> > netbeans.incubator.apache.org anymore.
> >
> >
> >>> And perhaps in a few years go back to the proper @netbeans.org mailing
> >>> lists?
> >>
> >> I don't see why.
> >>
> >
> > Why not? netbeans.org is a very visited site, easy to remember and it's
> > what we used until now.
> >
> >
> >>>
> >>> Now that I think about it, is there a particular reason we cannot have
> >> the
> >>> Apache infra serve the existing @netbeans.org mailing lists?
> >>>
> >>
> >> If NetBeans becomes an Apache project it lives at apache.org. The ASF
> >> is not just a hosting organization, it's a community of communities
> >> who lives out of sponsorshing money and as such branding is important.
> >>
> >
> > So no Apache project has a distinct website and branding?
>
> Provided netbeans.org gets donated to the ASF, it would likely serve as
> the user-facing web site, whereas netbeans.apache.org would be the
> _project_ web site (iow the developer-facing site).
>
> See cloudstack.org, openoffice.org etc - we do support and use other
> domains, just not for mailing lists.
>
> >
> > When Microsoft did Xbox they used xbox.com, not xbox.microsoft.com.
> >
> > Being too hard on this migration will diminish a lot of the NetBeans
> brand
> > value not to mention search engine ranking.
> >
> >>
> >>> Also, could we try a staged approach for this migration? We sort the
> >> lists
> >>> by number or users / activity and start migrating the smallest ones
> first
> >>> and leave the largest last?...
> >>
> >> I suggest migrating developers first and users later, once the dust
> >> settles.
> >
> >
> > I agree.
> >
>
>

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org>]

On 10/07/2016 11:20 AM, Emilian Bold wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Then, once out of incubation, we will migrate again from @
>>> netbeans.incubator.apache.org to @netbeans.apache.org?
>>>
>>
>> Yes but that's seamless, redirects are automatic.
>>
> 
> But I wonder, will all the Gmail and email client filters still work
> automatically?
> 
> Even with automatic redirects people will suddenly find themselves with all
> the mailing list emails in the inbox because the filters won't match
> netbeans.incubator.apache.org anymore.
> 
> 
>>> And perhaps in a few years go back to the proper @netbeans.org mailing
>>> lists?
>>
>> I don't see why.
>>
> 
> Why not? netbeans.org is a very visited site, easy to remember and it's
> what we used until now.
> 
> 
>>>
>>> Now that I think about it, is there a particular reason we cannot have
>> the
>>> Apache infra serve the existing @netbeans.org mailing lists?
>>>
>>
>> If NetBeans becomes an Apache project it lives at apache.org. The ASF
>> is not just a hosting organization, it's a community of communities
>> who lives out of sponsorshing money and as such branding is important.
>>
> 
> So no Apache project has a distinct website and branding?

Provided netbeans.org gets donated to the ASF, it would likely serve as
the user-facing web site, whereas netbeans.apache.org would be the
_project_ web site (iow the developer-facing site).

See cloudstack.org, openoffice.org etc - we do support and use other
domains, just not for mailing lists.

> 
> When Microsoft did Xbox they used xbox.com, not xbox.microsoft.com.
> 
> Being too hard on this migration will diminish a lot of the NetBeans brand
> value not to mention search engine ranking.
> 
>>
>>> Also, could we try a staged approach for this migration? We sort the
>> lists
>>> by number or users / activity and start migrating the smallest ones first
>>> and leave the largest last?...
>>
>> I suggest migrating developers first and users later, once the dust
>> settles.
> 
> 
> I agree.
> 

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Emmanuel Lécharny <el...@gmail.com>]

Le 07/10/16 � 10:07, Bertrand Delacretaz a �crit :
> On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 3:24 PM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> ...if we
>> only ask a lot of people will not notice this and basically be silently
>> dropped (for example, people might lurk on nbannounce@netbeans.org or just
>> nbweekly@netbeans.org)....
> I suppose you could continue sending announcements and news to those
> lists for some time (one year?) in parallel and add the transition
> information to every such message.

Can't you set up a disclaimer sent automatically to anyone posting on
the old netbeans mails, telling the poster that the mailing list is now
defunct, and they should subscribe t the new one ? Like the 'out of
office' one ?

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com>]

Yup. I think there needs to be a parallel solution like this.

Gj

On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 10:07 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bdelacretaz@apache.org
> wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 3:24 PM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > ...if we
> > only ask a lot of people will not notice this and basically be silently
> > dropped (for example, people might lurk on nbannounce@netbeans.org or
> just
> > nbweekly@netbeans.org)....
>
> I suppose you could continue sending announcements and news to those
> lists for some time (one year?) in parallel and add the transition
> information to every such message.
>
> -Bertrand
>

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 3:24 PM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...if we
> only ask a lot of people will not notice this and basically be silently
> dropped (for example, people might lurk on nbannounce@netbeans.org or just
> nbweekly@netbeans.org)....

I suppose you could continue sending announcements and news to those
lists for some time (one year?) in parallel and add the transition
information to every such message.

-Bertrand

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>]

>
> >
> > Then, once out of incubation, we will migrate again from @
> > netbeans.incubator.apache.org to @netbeans.apache.org?
> >
>
> Yes but that's seamless, redirects are automatic.
>

But I wonder, will all the Gmail and email client filters still work
automatically?

Even with automatic redirects people will suddenly find themselves with all
the mailing list emails in the inbox because the filters won't match
netbeans.incubator.apache.org anymore.


> > And perhaps in a few years go back to the proper @netbeans.org mailing
> > lists?
>
> I don't see why.
>

Why not? netbeans.org is a very visited site, easy to remember and it's
what we used until now.


> >
> > Now that I think about it, is there a particular reason we cannot have
> the
> > Apache infra serve the existing @netbeans.org mailing lists?
> >
>
> If NetBeans becomes an Apache project it lives at apache.org. The ASF
> is not just a hosting organization, it's a community of communities
> who lives out of sponsorshing money and as such branding is important.
>

So no Apache project has a distinct website and branding?

When Microsoft did Xbox they used xbox.com, not xbox.microsoft.com.

Being too hard on this migration will diminish a lot of the NetBeans brand
value not to mention search engine ranking.

>
> > Also, could we try a staged approach for this migration? We sort the
> lists
> > by number or users / activity and start migrating the smallest ones first
> > and leave the largest last?...
>
> I suggest migrating developers first and users later, once the dust
> settles.


I agree.

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com>]

Personally, I'm not sure about bulk subscriptions. I'd prefer it, right
now, i.e., until further insights changes my perspective, everyone
explicitly would chose for joining an Apache NetBeans mailing list. Yes,
that will have an impact etc but the bulk option has disadvantages too.

I agree also with the idea of migrating in pieces, i.e., developers first,
then wait for the dust to settle, then the next group, then wait for dust
settling, then next etc.

Gj

On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 3:24 PM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > ...I assume we will also automatically migrate users? Because if we
> > only ask a lot of people will not notice this and basically be silently
> > dropped (for example, people might lurk on nbannounce@netbeans.org or
> just
> > nbweekly@netbeans.org)....
>
> Bulk subscriptions are possible with the help of our infra team I suppose.
>
> You would need very clear communications on the existing lists
> however, so that people understand what's going on.
>
> Ideally auto-responders on the existing lists which point to an
> apache.org page that explains the transition.
>
> >
> > Then, once out of incubation, we will migrate again from @
> > netbeans.incubator.apache.org to @netbeans.apache.org?
> >
>
> Yes but that's seamless, redirects are automatic.
>
> > And perhaps in a few years go back to the proper @netbeans.org mailing
> > lists?
>
> I don't see why.
>
> >
> > Now that I think about it, is there a particular reason we cannot have
> the
> > Apache infra serve the existing @netbeans.org mailing lists?
> >
>
> If NetBeans becomes an Apache project it lives at apache.org. The ASF
> is not just a hosting organization, it's a community of communities
> who lives out of sponsorshing money and as such branding is important.
>
> >> ...1a. Ask the above to use tags and very clear subject lines in their
> mails
> > to the unified mailing list.
> >
> > I very much doubt people will learn this. A lot of users@ have short
> > interactions, they will not learn the tagging rule, just pick a mailing
> > list and go with it....
>
> If they pick the users list I suppose that won't be too bad.
>
> >
> > Also, could we try a staged approach for this migration? We sort the
> lists
> > by number or users / activity and start migrating the smallest ones first
> > and leave the largest last?...
>
> I suggest migrating developers first and users later, once the dust
> settles.
>
> -Bertrand
>

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

Hi,

On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 3:24 PM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...I assume we will also automatically migrate users? Because if we
> only ask a lot of people will not notice this and basically be silently
> dropped (for example, people might lurk on nbannounce@netbeans.org or just
> nbweekly@netbeans.org)....

Bulk subscriptions are possible with the help of our infra team I suppose.

You would need very clear communications on the existing lists
however, so that people understand what's going on.

Ideally auto-responders on the existing lists which point to an
apache.org page that explains the transition.

>
> Then, once out of incubation, we will migrate again from @
> netbeans.incubator.apache.org to @netbeans.apache.org?
>

Yes but that's seamless, redirects are automatic.

> And perhaps in a few years go back to the proper @netbeans.org mailing
> lists?

I don't see why.

>
> Now that I think about it, is there a particular reason we cannot have the
> Apache infra serve the existing @netbeans.org mailing lists?
>

If NetBeans becomes an Apache project it lives at apache.org. The ASF
is not just a hosting organization, it's a community of communities
who lives out of sponsorshing money and as such branding is important.

>> ...1a. Ask the above to use tags and very clear subject lines in their mails
> to the unified mailing list.
>
> I very much doubt people will learn this. A lot of users@ have short
> interactions, they will not learn the tagging rule, just pick a mailing
> list and go with it....

If they pick the users list I suppose that won't be too bad.

>
> Also, could we try a staged approach for this migration? We sort the lists
> by number or users / activity and start migrating the smallest ones first
> and leave the largest last?...

I suggest migrating developers first and users later, once the dust settles.

-Bertrand

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>]

I think switching mailing lists is going to take a toll on the community.
So, we are switching / migrating the @netbeans.org mailing lists to @
netbeans.incubator.apache.org.

First, I assume we will also automatically migrate users? Because if we
only ask a lot of people will not notice this and basically be silently
dropped (for example, people might lurk on nbannounce@netbeans.org or just
nbweekly@netbeans.org).

Then, once out of incubation, we will migrate again from @
netbeans.incubator.apache.org to @netbeans.apache.org?

And perhaps in a few years go back to the proper @netbeans.org mailing
lists?

Now that I think about it, is there a particular reason we cannot have the
Apache infra serve the existing @netbeans.org mailing lists?

A lot of people have these email addresses in their contacts already, there
is tons of sites pointing to them, etc.

> 1a. Ask the above to use tags and very clear subject lines in their mails
to the unified mailing list.

I very much doubt people will learn this. A lot of users@ have short
interactions, they will not learn the tagging rule, just pick a mailing
list and go with it.

Also, could we try a staged approach for this migration? We sort the lists
by number or users / activity and start migrating the smallest ones first
and leave the largest last?



--emi

On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 4:09 PM, Geertjan Wielenga <
geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Great. What we should try to do is:
>
> 1. Ask everyone on nbusers@netbeans.org, dev@platform.netbeans.org,
> nbj2ee@netbeans.org, and other user-oriented lists, to sign up to users@
> netbeans.incubator.a.o.
>
> 1a. Ask the above to use tags and very clear subject lines in their mails
> to the unified mailing list.
>
> 1b. Tell the above that, as needed, if it turns out to be unworkable in one
> unified list, to create additional ones.
>
> 2. Ask everyone on nbdev@netbeans.org to sign up to dev@
> netbeans.incubator.a.o.
>
> 3. Keep the NetBeans Dream Team and NetCAT outside of Apache for the moment
> -- i.e., keep them where they are for the moment on netbeans.org and, in
> time, once 1 and 2 have been done and are working well, potentially in a
> month or so, create new mailing lists for these specific communities, which
> don't fit into either 1 or 2 for specific and valid reasons.
>
> I will do 1 and 2 after about 24 hours from now, to give everyone a chance
> to disagree/agree with the above and to discuss further as needed.
>
> Gj
>
> On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 2:40 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> bdelacretaz@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 2:39 PM, Geertjan Wielenga
> > <ge...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > >...
> > > dev: those developing NetBeans itself, i.e., Apache NetBeans committers
> > > users: those using NetBeans IDE or building on top of the NetBeans
> > > application framework, using tags, e.g., [PLATFORM] or [JAVASCRIPT]
> etc.
> > > commits: commits
> > > private: PPMC (later PMC) with minimal traffic since most discussion
> > about
> > > developing NetBeans should be on dev mailing list ..
> >
> > +1 for starting with those.
> >
> > -Bertrand
> >
>

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com>]

On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 3:24 PM, Emilian Bold wrote:



> I think switching mailing lists is going to take a toll on the community.
> So, we are switching / migrating the @netbeans.org mailing lists to @
> netbeans.incubator.apache.org.
>
> First, I assume we will also automatically migrate users? Because if we
> only ask a lot of people will not notice this and basically be silently
> dropped (for example, people might lurk on nbannounce@netbeans.org or just
> nbweekly@netbeans.org).
>
> Then, once out of incubation, we will migrate again from @
> netbeans.incubator.apache.org to @netbeans.apache.org?
>
> And perhaps in a few years go back to the proper @netbeans.org mailing
> lists?
>
> Now that I think about it, is there a particular reason we cannot have the
> Apache infra serve the existing @netbeans.org mailing lists?
>
> A lot of people have these email addresses in their contacts already, there
> is tons of sites pointing to them, etc.
>
> > 1a. Ask the above to use tags and very clear subject lines in their mails
> to the unified mailing list.
>
> I very much doubt people will learn this. A lot of users@ have short
> interactions, they will not learn the tagging rule, just pick a mailing
> list and go with it.
>
> Also, could we try a staged approach for this migration? We sort the lists
> by number or users / activity and start migrating the smallest ones first
> and leave the largest last?



I would love to have answers to the above questions from Emilian re the
mailing list status. Can the mentors help with the answers here?

Thanks,

Gj


On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 4:02 PM, Geertjan Wielenga <
geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 3:24 PM, Emilian Bold wrote:
>
>
>> I think switching mailing lists is going to take a toll on the community.
>
>
> Great questions you're asking -- I hope someone from Apache can respond to
> each of your points, I'm interested in those responses too, all points seem
> valid to ask at this point.
>
> On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 3:31 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>
> Don't you think it would be better to have these explanations at a
>> stable URL first?
>
>
> Agreed. Let's work through the various questions first, aside from
> Emilian's, I'm sure there'll be more, though his are a good start.
>
> Gj
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 3:31 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> bdelacretaz@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 3:09 PM, Geertjan Wielenga
>> <ge...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> > ...I will do 1 and 2 after about 24 hours from now, to give everyone a
>> chance
>> > to disagree/agree with the above and to discuss further as needed....
>>
>> Don't you think it would be better to have these explanations at a
>> stable URL first?
>>
>> I suppose we can get a (Confluence as per Daniel) wiki quickly and you
>> could then just send the URL of that explanations page - which we can
>> update later if needed, as we're bound to discover a few things along
>> the way ;-)
>>
>> -Bertrand
>>
>
>

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com>]

On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 3:24 PM, Emilian Bold wrote:


> I think switching mailing lists is going to take a toll on the community.


Great questions you're asking -- I hope someone from Apache can respond to
each of your points, I'm interested in those responses too, all points seem
valid to ask at this point.

On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 3:31 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:

Don't you think it would be better to have these explanations at a
> stable URL first?


Agreed. Let's work through the various questions first, aside from
Emilian's, I'm sure there'll be more, though his are a good start.

Gj


On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 3:31 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 3:09 PM, Geertjan Wielenga
> <ge...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > ...I will do 1 and 2 after about 24 hours from now, to give everyone a
> chance
> > to disagree/agree with the above and to discuss further as needed....
>
> Don't you think it would be better to have these explanations at a
> stable URL first?
>
> I suppose we can get a (Confluence as per Daniel) wiki quickly and you
> could then just send the URL of that explanations page - which we can
> update later if needed, as we're bound to discover a few things along
> the way ;-)
>
> -Bertrand
>

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 3:09 PM, Geertjan Wielenga
<ge...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> ...I will do 1 and 2 after about 24 hours from now, to give everyone a chance
> to disagree/agree with the above and to discuss further as needed....

Don't you think it would be better to have these explanations at a
stable URL first?

I suppose we can get a (Confluence as per Daniel) wiki quickly and you
could then just send the URL of that explanations page - which we can
update later if needed, as we're bound to discover a few things along
the way ;-)

-Bertrand

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com>]

Great. What we should try to do is:

1. Ask everyone on nbusers@netbeans.org, dev@platform.netbeans.org,
nbj2ee@netbeans.org, and other user-oriented lists, to sign up to users@
netbeans.incubator.a.o.

1a. Ask the above to use tags and very clear subject lines in their mails
to the unified mailing list.

1b. Tell the above that, as needed, if it turns out to be unworkable in one
unified list, to create additional ones.

2. Ask everyone on nbdev@netbeans.org to sign up to dev@
netbeans.incubator.a.o.

3. Keep the NetBeans Dream Team and NetCAT outside of Apache for the moment
-- i.e., keep them where they are for the moment on netbeans.org and, in
time, once 1 and 2 have been done and are working well, potentially in a
month or so, create new mailing lists for these specific communities, which
don't fit into either 1 or 2 for specific and valid reasons.

I will do 1 and 2 after about 24 hours from now, to give everyone a chance
to disagree/agree with the above and to discuss further as needed.

Gj

On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 2:40 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 2:39 PM, Geertjan Wielenga
> <ge...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >...
> > dev: those developing NetBeans itself, i.e., Apache NetBeans committers
> > users: those using NetBeans IDE or building on top of the NetBeans
> > application framework, using tags, e.g., [PLATFORM] or [JAVASCRIPT] etc.
> > commits: commits
> > private: PPMC (later PMC) with minimal traffic since most discussion
> about
> > developing NetBeans should be on dev mailing list ..
>
> +1 for starting with those.
>
> -Bertrand
>

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 2:39 PM, Geertjan Wielenga
<ge...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>...
> dev: those developing NetBeans itself, i.e., Apache NetBeans committers
> users: those using NetBeans IDE or building on top of the NetBeans
> application framework, using tags, e.g., [PLATFORM] or [JAVASCRIPT] etc.
> commits: commits
> private: PPMC (later PMC) with minimal traffic since most discussion about
> developing NetBeans should be on dev mailing list ..

+1 for starting with those.

-Bertrand

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com>]

After this discussion -- and agreeing with Raphael Bircher and Emmanuel
Lécharny's insights in retrospect -- I think we should go with the mailing
lists we have by default, {dev,users,commits,private}@netbeans.incubator.a.o
-- and ask for additional ones as needed.

I haven't seen a massive amount of e-mails coming in to the mailing lists
on netbeans.org, i.e., not 100's per day, for example. So we should be OK
with tagging.

dev: those developing NetBeans itself, i.e., Apache NetBeans committers
users: those using NetBeans IDE or building on top of the NetBeans
application framework, using tags, e.g., [PLATFORM] or [JAVASCRIPT] etc.
commits: commits
private: PPMC (later PMC) with minimal traffic since most discussion about
developing NetBeans should be on dev mailing list

Maybe simplicity and adopting Apache defaults is best and simplest until
more are needed.

Gj

On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 11:42 AM, Geertjan Wielenga <
geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Thanks, this is really helpful advice.
>
> Though, the additional mailing lists suggested in my proposal are really
> minimal, i.e., I think these are the absolute minimum that is absolutely
> needed -- though probably not all right now this minute, indeed.
>
> Gj
>
> On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 11:19 AM, Emmanuel Lécharny <el...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Le 06/10/16 à 10:28, Bertrand Delacretaz a écrit :
>> > On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 10:13 AM, Geertjan Wielenga
>> > <ge...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> >> ...Before getting people to come over from the existing mailing lists
>> to the
>> >> Apache NetBeans mailing lists, we need to finalize what those mailing
>> lists
>> >> are. Comments to my earlier proposal are welcome...
>> > Agreed. From my mentor point of view only the private (private PPMC
>> > discussions) and dev (project and technical decision making) lists
>> > have required roles, others can be created as needed.
>> >
>> > So if the other mentors agree I'll defer to the NetBeans community to
>> > decide which other lists are needed before switching the community
>> > here.
>>
>> Totally make sense. Bertrand bootstrapped the project by creating the
>> very first mailing lists, up to the PPMC to decide if some other lists
>> are needed, and to create them.
>>
>> A few thing to remember :
>> - each list will have to be moderated. Don't forget to ask for at least
>> 3 moderators (from different TZ, covering at least EU and US, ideally
>> Asia) for each of those lists
>> - the more lists you have, the more spam you'll get ;-) At some point,
>> it's an annoyance to have to moderate those spams (even if The ASF spam
>> system is *REALLY* efficient - we don't receive spam at all. I really
>> mean it... - you will receive a few moderator requests every day per
>> mailing list. You just have to ignore them, but you still have to look
>> at them.
>> - users are frequently cross-posting (yeah, I now, bad, bad, bad...). It
>> simply happens, so be prepared to deal with that
>> - when user aren't cross posting, they post on te wrong mailing list.
>> The more mailing lists you have, the more you'll get mails on the wrong
>> mailing lists...
>> - from time to tim, you will get a mail from an angry user who complain
>> that he/she receives unsollicited mails. Typically, this is someone who
>> subscribed to many mailing list, unsibscribed from some of them, but not
>> all of them. Good luck to manage their un-subscription if you have a lot
>> of mailing lists ;-)
>>
>> I guess you know all that, but just in case...
>>
>>
>

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com>]

Thanks, this is really helpful advice.

Though, the additional mailing lists suggested in my proposal are really
minimal, i.e., I think these are the absolute minimum that is absolutely
needed -- though probably not all right now this minute, indeed.

Gj

On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 11:19 AM, Emmanuel Lécharny <el...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Le 06/10/16 à 10:28, Bertrand Delacretaz a écrit :
> > On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 10:13 AM, Geertjan Wielenga
> > <ge...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >> ...Before getting people to come over from the existing mailing lists
> to the
> >> Apache NetBeans mailing lists, we need to finalize what those mailing
> lists
> >> are. Comments to my earlier proposal are welcome...
> > Agreed. From my mentor point of view only the private (private PPMC
> > discussions) and dev (project and technical decision making) lists
> > have required roles, others can be created as needed.
> >
> > So if the other mentors agree I'll defer to the NetBeans community to
> > decide which other lists are needed before switching the community
> > here.
>
> Totally make sense. Bertrand bootstrapped the project by creating the
> very first mailing lists, up to the PPMC to decide if some other lists
> are needed, and to create them.
>
> A few thing to remember :
> - each list will have to be moderated. Don't forget to ask for at least
> 3 moderators (from different TZ, covering at least EU and US, ideally
> Asia) for each of those lists
> - the more lists you have, the more spam you'll get ;-) At some point,
> it's an annoyance to have to moderate those spams (even if The ASF spam
> system is *REALLY* efficient - we don't receive spam at all. I really
> mean it... - you will receive a few moderator requests every day per
> mailing list. You just have to ignore them, but you still have to look
> at them.
> - users are frequently cross-posting (yeah, I now, bad, bad, bad...). It
> simply happens, so be prepared to deal with that
> - when user aren't cross posting, they post on te wrong mailing list.
> The more mailing lists you have, the more you'll get mails on the wrong
> mailing lists...
> - from time to tim, you will get a mail from an angry user who complain
> that he/she receives unsollicited mails. Typically, this is someone who
> subscribed to many mailing list, unsibscribed from some of them, but not
> all of them. Good luck to manage their un-subscription if you have a lot
> of mailing lists ;-)
>
> I guess you know all that, but just in case...
>
>

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Emmanuel Lécharny <el...@gmail.com>]

Le 06/10/16 � 10:28, Bertrand Delacretaz a �crit :
> On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 10:13 AM, Geertjan Wielenga
> <ge...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> ...Before getting people to come over from the existing mailing lists to the
>> Apache NetBeans mailing lists, we need to finalize what those mailing lists
>> are. Comments to my earlier proposal are welcome...
> Agreed. From my mentor point of view only the private (private PPMC
> discussions) and dev (project and technical decision making) lists
> have required roles, others can be created as needed.
>
> So if the other mentors agree I'll defer to the NetBeans community to
> decide which other lists are needed before switching the community
> here.

Totally make sense. Bertrand bootstrapped the project by creating the
very first mailing lists, up to the PPMC to decide if some other lists
are needed, and to create them.

A few thing to remember :
- each list will have to be moderated. Don't forget to ask for at least
3 moderators (from different TZ, covering at least EU and US, ideally
Asia) for each of those lists
- the more lists you have, the more spam you'll get ;-) At some point,
it's an annoyance to have to moderate those spams (even if The ASF spam
system is *REALLY* efficient - we don't receive spam at all. I really
mean it... - you will receive a few moderator requests every day per
mailing list. You just have to ignore them, but you still have to look
at them.
- users are frequently cross-posting (yeah, I now, bad, bad, bad...). It
simply happens, so be prepared to deal with that
- when user aren't cross posting, they post on te wrong mailing list.
The more mailing lists you have, the more you'll get mails on the wrong
mailing lists...
- from time to tim, you will get a mail from an angry user who complain
that he/she receives unsollicited mails. Typically, this is someone who
subscribed to many mailing list, unsibscribed from some of them, but not
all of them. Good luck to manage their un-subscription if you have a lot
of mailing lists ;-)

I guess you know all that, but just in case...

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 10:13 AM, Geertjan Wielenga
<ge...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> ...Before getting people to come over from the existing mailing lists to the
> Apache NetBeans mailing lists, we need to finalize what those mailing lists
> are. Comments to my earlier proposal are welcome...

Agreed. From my mentor point of view only the private (private PPMC
discussions) and dev (project and technical decision making) lists
have required roles, others can be created as needed.

So if the other mentors agree I'll defer to the NetBeans community to
decide which other lists are needed before switching the community
here.

I'll address the Wiki thing separately, let's stick to one thread per topic.

-Bertrand

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com>]

Indeed, have done that.

The ICLAs are coming in, that's going well.

Before getting people to come over from the existing mailing lists to the
Apache NetBeans mailing lists, we need to finalize what those mailing lists
are. Comments to my earlier proposal are welcome.

We need to set up the Wiki with as the first item to address in detail is a
community-driven transition plan, with what we want to move, when, in what
order, etc.

Gj

On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 10:08 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bdelacretaz@apache.org
> wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 9:48 AM, Geertjan Wielenga
> <ge...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > I think the NetBeans Apache mailing lists are tge 1st thing we need to
> > finalize (my concrete proposal is earlier in this thread)....
>
> We currently have {dev,users,commits,private}@netbeans.incubator.a.o,
> if you think more are needed right now we can request them.
>
> > ...we need to get at least those on the initial committers list to send
> in their ICLAs...
>
> Yes, as explained at [1] - you might want to send a summary of that to
> the appropriate channels.
>
> -Bertrand
>
> [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/1e8af86d91f5ca545c89623fa152b1
> 91996bb5278ca010c6dc20e6be@%3Cgeneral.incubator.apache.org%3E
>

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 9:48 AM, Geertjan Wielenga
<ge...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> I think the NetBeans Apache mailing lists are tge 1st thing we need to
> finalize (my concrete proposal is earlier in this thread)....

We currently have {dev,users,commits,private}@netbeans.incubator.a.o,
if you think more are needed right now we can request them.

> ...we need to get at least those on the initial committers list to send in their ICLAs...

Yes, as explained at [1] - you might want to send a summary of that to
the appropriate channels.

-Bertrand

[1] https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/1e8af86d91f5ca545c89623fa152b191996bb5278ca010c6dc20e6be@%3Cgeneral.incubator.apache.org%3E

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com>]

I think the NetBeans Apache mailing lists are tge 1st thing we need to
finalize (my concrete proposal is earlier in this thread). Concurrently, we
need to get at least those on the initial committers list to sebd in their
ICLAs. Also getting the Wiki up is important so we can publicly documebt
the transition.

Gj


On Thursday, October 6, 2016, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Yes - you'll need a clear description of the various lists on the Apache
> NetBeans website.
>
> More like we need to cleverly hide the dev@ list :-)
>
> Seems to me the lists are quite nicely described on
> https://netbeans.org/community/lists/ and
> https://netbeans.org/community/lists/top.html yet some people still manage
> to use nbdev@.
>
>
>
> --emi
>
> On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 10:28 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> bdelacretaz@apache.org <javascript:;>
> > wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 10:22 PM, Emilian Bold <emilian.bold@gmail.com
> <javascript:;>>
> > wrote:
> > > ...For every software developer that uses NetBeans and has to ask
> > something,
> > > some will assume they need dev@ since that has developers in the
> > title...
> >
> > Yes - you'll need a clear description of the various lists on the
> > Apache NetBeans website.
> >
> > -Bertrand
> >
>

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>]

> Yes - you'll need a clear description of the various lists on the Apache
NetBeans website.

More like we need to cleverly hide the dev@ list :-)

Seems to me the lists are quite nicely described on
https://netbeans.org/community/lists/ and
https://netbeans.org/community/lists/top.html yet some people still manage
to use nbdev@.



--emi

On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 10:28 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bdelacretaz@apache.org
> wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 10:22 PM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > ...For every software developer that uses NetBeans and has to ask
> something,
> > some will assume they need dev@ since that has developers in the
> title...
>
> Yes - you'll need a clear description of the various lists on the
> Apache NetBeans website.
>
> -Bertrand
>

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 10:22 PM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...For every software developer that uses NetBeans and has to ask something,
> some will assume they need dev@ since that has developers in the title...

Yes - you'll need a clear description of the various lists on the
Apache NetBeans website.

-Bertrand

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>]

BTW, considering NetBeans is an IDE, there has been a bit of confusion
about what nbdev@ is all about. I assume this will propagate to
dev@netbeans.apache.org too.

For every software developer that uses NetBeans and has to ask something,
some will assume they need dev@ since that has developers in the title.


--emi

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 7:00 PM, Geertjan Wielenga <
geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Here's a proposal (and it's not about building "a load of small groups",
> which I don't believe Sun did either actually, but about not having people
> quit the Apache NetBeans mailing lists because of getting too many
> irrelevant e-mails for their purposes):
>
> 1. How the standard Apache mailing lists map to the existing NetBeans
> mailing lists:
> - private@ list: nothing currently like that in NetBeans, specifically for
> PPMC
> - dev@ list: this is the equivalent of nbdev@netbeans.org and is where the
> code contributors will be collaborating
> - users@ list: this is where users of NetBeans, e.g., those creating Java
> apps or web apps or learning about Java etc can ask/discuss questions
>
> 2. I do think a very few additional lists are needed and, again, not to
> fragment the community but to keep the flow of information relevant and
> manageable:
> - platform@ list: this is what Hermien refers to earlier in this thread,
> i.e., a specific subset of developers talking about NetBeans APIs and how
> to use them in the software they're creating on top of NetBeans -- if these
> were to be part of the users@list, I fear that a lot of people would not
> subscribe or unsubscribe from the @users list, since this is a pretty
> active group of NetBeans folks around the world focused on a very specific
> thing, I don't think there are other similar groupings like this
> - dreamteam@ list: the advocacy group, i.e., for discussions about Apache
> NetBeans events and gatherings, etc, again, not about the kind of code
> discussions of the users@list and this is a group of about 50 or so
> community advocates focused on that specific theme
> - netcat@list: the community focused on testing NetBeans prior to its
> release
> - translation@ list: translators of NetBeans documentation and NetBeans
> itself
>
> I think we can keep it to the above -- and I think we really do want to try
> to keep as unified a community as possible, that's really what we do want,
> though via the above proposal we'd not have too many unnecessary mails
> coming in. We'll still have different discussions within the above, e.g.,
> specific discussions about Python or Rust or some other languages and
> technologies.
>
> Hope from the above it can be seen that this proposal tries to strike a
> balance between the different valid concerns.
>
> Gj
>
> On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 5:35 PM, Geertjan Wielenga <
> geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > On  Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 4:45 PM, Raphael Bircher wrote:
> >
> > During the proposal time i created a NetBeans account and looked into the
> >> community. The similarities with OpenOffice are on some level realy
> height.
> >> Mainly the infrastructure is very similar. In the case of the ML it's
> >> pretty much the same. Both old projects. They have added ML's. Some are
> >> still used, others not. So a moment like the incubation is a good
> chance to
> >> start from the scratch.
> >>
> >> And it's not about comparing projects. It's about looking to the other
> >> projects and see, if we can take over a solution.
> >
> >
> >
> > The infrastructure, including the mailing lists, is pretty different
> > between OpenOffice and NetBeans, to be honest.
> >
> > There's really only the following mailing lists in relation to NetBeans:
> > - nbusers@netbeans.org -- NetBeans users, i.e., those using NetBeans as
> a
> > development tool for work or education
> > - dev@platform.netbeans.org -- NetBeans Platform developers, i.e., those
> > creating applications on top of the NetBeans application framework
> > - nbdev@netbeans.org -- those interested in extending NetBeans itself
> >
> > Aside from that, there's also the NetCAT community, for community
> testers,
> > and the NetBeans Dream Team, for community advocates.
> >
> > Gj
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 4:45 PM, Raphael Bircher <
> rbircherapache@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Bertrand
> >>
> >>
> >> Am 10/5/2016 um 4:24 PM schrieb Bertrand Delacretaz:
> >>
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 4:20 PM, Raphael Bircher
> >>> <rb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> ...NetBeans has the same problem in this case as Apache OpenOffice had
> >>>> before
> >>>> Apache was joined....
> >>>>
> >>> I would prefer that we avoid comparing NetBeans and OpenOffice - those
> >>> are very different projects, each with their own history.
> >>>
> >> During the proposal time i created a NetBeans account and looked into
> the
> >> community. The similarities with OpenOffice are on some level realy
> height.
> >> Mainly the infrastructure is very similar. In the case of the ML it's
> >> pretty much the same. Both old projects. They have added ML's. Some are
> >> still used, others not. So a moment like the incubation is a good
> chance to
> >> start from the scratch.
> >>
> >> And it's not about comparing projects. It's about looking to the other
> >> projects and see, if we can take over a solution.
> >>
> >>
> >> Regards Raphael
> >>
> >
> >
>

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com>]

Here's a proposal (and it's not about building "a load of small groups",
which I don't believe Sun did either actually, but about not having people
quit the Apache NetBeans mailing lists because of getting too many
irrelevant e-mails for their purposes):

1. How the standard Apache mailing lists map to the existing NetBeans
mailing lists:
- private@ list: nothing currently like that in NetBeans, specifically for
PPMC
- dev@ list: this is the equivalent of nbdev@netbeans.org and is where the
code contributors will be collaborating
- users@ list: this is where users of NetBeans, e.g., those creating Java
apps or web apps or learning about Java etc can ask/discuss questions

2. I do think a very few additional lists are needed and, again, not to
fragment the community but to keep the flow of information relevant and
manageable:
- platform@ list: this is what Hermien refers to earlier in this thread,
i.e., a specific subset of developers talking about NetBeans APIs and how
to use them in the software they're creating on top of NetBeans -- if these
were to be part of the users@list, I fear that a lot of people would not
subscribe or unsubscribe from the @users list, since this is a pretty
active group of NetBeans folks around the world focused on a very specific
thing, I don't think there are other similar groupings like this
- dreamteam@ list: the advocacy group, i.e., for discussions about Apache
NetBeans events and gatherings, etc, again, not about the kind of code
discussions of the users@list and this is a group of about 50 or so
community advocates focused on that specific theme
- netcat@list: the community focused on testing NetBeans prior to its
release
- translation@ list: translators of NetBeans documentation and NetBeans
itself

I think we can keep it to the above -- and I think we really do want to try
to keep as unified a community as possible, that's really what we do want,
though via the above proposal we'd not have too many unnecessary mails
coming in. We'll still have different discussions within the above, e.g.,
specific discussions about Python or Rust or some other languages and
technologies.

Hope from the above it can be seen that this proposal tries to strike a
balance between the different valid concerns.

Gj

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 5:35 PM, Geertjan Wielenga <
geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.com> wrote:

> On  Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 4:45 PM, Raphael Bircher wrote:
>
> During the proposal time i created a NetBeans account and looked into the
>> community. The similarities with OpenOffice are on some level realy height.
>> Mainly the infrastructure is very similar. In the case of the ML it's
>> pretty much the same. Both old projects. They have added ML's. Some are
>> still used, others not. So a moment like the incubation is a good chance to
>> start from the scratch.
>>
>> And it's not about comparing projects. It's about looking to the other
>> projects and see, if we can take over a solution.
>
>
>
> The infrastructure, including the mailing lists, is pretty different
> between OpenOffice and NetBeans, to be honest.
>
> There's really only the following mailing lists in relation to NetBeans:
> - nbusers@netbeans.org -- NetBeans users, i.e., those using NetBeans as a
> development tool for work or education
> - dev@platform.netbeans.org -- NetBeans Platform developers, i.e., those
> creating applications on top of the NetBeans application framework
> - nbdev@netbeans.org -- those interested in extending NetBeans itself
>
> Aside from that, there's also the NetCAT community, for community testers,
> and the NetBeans Dream Team, for community advocates.
>
> Gj
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 4:45 PM, Raphael Bircher <rb...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Bertrand
>>
>>
>> Am 10/5/2016 um 4:24 PM schrieb Bertrand Delacretaz:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 4:20 PM, Raphael Bircher
>>> <rb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> ...NetBeans has the same problem in this case as Apache OpenOffice had
>>>> before
>>>> Apache was joined....
>>>>
>>> I would prefer that we avoid comparing NetBeans and OpenOffice - those
>>> are very different projects, each with their own history.
>>>
>> During the proposal time i created a NetBeans account and looked into the
>> community. The similarities with OpenOffice are on some level realy height.
>> Mainly the infrastructure is very similar. In the case of the ML it's
>> pretty much the same. Both old projects. They have added ML's. Some are
>> still used, others not. So a moment like the incubation is a good chance to
>> start from the scratch.
>>
>> And it's not about comparing projects. It's about looking to the other
>> projects and see, if we can take over a solution.
>>
>>
>> Regards Raphael
>>
>
>

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com>]

On  Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 4:45 PM, Raphael Bircher wrote:

During the proposal time i created a NetBeans account and looked into the
> community. The similarities with OpenOffice are on some level realy height.
> Mainly the infrastructure is very similar. In the case of the ML it's
> pretty much the same. Both old projects. They have added ML's. Some are
> still used, others not. So a moment like the incubation is a good chance to
> start from the scratch.
>
> And it's not about comparing projects. It's about looking to the other
> projects and see, if we can take over a solution.



The infrastructure, including the mailing lists, is pretty different
between OpenOffice and NetBeans, to be honest.

There's really only the following mailing lists in relation to NetBeans:
- nbusers@netbeans.org -- NetBeans users, i.e., those using NetBeans as a
development tool for work or education
- dev@platform.netbeans.org -- NetBeans Platform developers, i.e., those
creating applications on top of the NetBeans application framework
- nbdev@netbeans.org -- those interested in extending NetBeans itself

Aside from that, there's also the NetCAT community, for community testers,
and the NetBeans Dream Team, for community advocates.

Gj



On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 4:45 PM, Raphael Bircher <rb...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi Bertrand
>
>
> Am 10/5/2016 um 4:24 PM schrieb Bertrand Delacretaz:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 4:20 PM, Raphael Bircher
>> <rb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> ...NetBeans has the same problem in this case as Apache OpenOffice had
>>> before
>>> Apache was joined....
>>>
>> I would prefer that we avoid comparing NetBeans and OpenOffice - those
>> are very different projects, each with their own history.
>>
> During the proposal time i created a NetBeans account and looked into the
> community. The similarities with OpenOffice are on some level realy height.
> Mainly the infrastructure is very similar. In the case of the ML it's
> pretty much the same. Both old projects. They have added ML's. Some are
> still used, others not. So a moment like the incubation is a good chance to
> start from the scratch.
>
> And it's not about comparing projects. It's about looking to the other
> projects and see, if we can take over a solution.
>
>
> Regards Raphael
>

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Raphael Bircher <rb...@gmail.com>]

Hi Bertrand


Am 10/5/2016 um 4:24 PM schrieb Bertrand Delacretaz:
> Hi,
>
> On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 4:20 PM, Raphael Bircher
> <rb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> ...NetBeans has the same problem in this case as Apache OpenOffice had before
>> Apache was joined....
> I would prefer that we avoid comparing NetBeans and OpenOffice - those
> are very different projects, each with their own history.
During the proposal time i created a NetBeans account and looked into 
the community. The similarities with OpenOffice are on some level realy 
height. Mainly the infrastructure is very similar. In the case of the ML 
it's pretty much the same. Both old projects. They have added ML's. Some 
are still used, others not. So a moment like the incubation is a good 
chance to start from the scratch.

And it's not about comparing projects. It's about looking to the other 
projects and see, if we can take over a solution.


Regards Raphael

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

Hi,

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 4:20 PM, Raphael Bircher
<rb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...NetBeans has the same problem in this case as Apache OpenOffice had before
> Apache was joined....

I would prefer that we avoid comparing NetBeans and OpenOffice - those
are very different projects, each with their own history.

(and apart from that I agree with your comments)

-Bertrand

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Raphael Bircher <rb...@gmail.com>]

Hi Hermien


Am 10/5/2016 um 4:04 PM schrieb Hermien Pellissier:
> Hi,
>
>> My understand is that there are, at least initially, these:
>>
>> - one for the PPMC
>> - one for developers working on Apache NetBeans
>> - one for users making use of Apache NetBeans
> Putting my Platform Application developer hat on for a second. :) Will
> we have an equivalent of the dev@platform.netbeans.org list here too
> eventually? That list is targeted at developers that develop third
> party applications on top of the Apache NetBeans Platform, or plugins
> for the IDE, and as such is more focused on highly technical (code)
> questions relating to the platform. Where the existing users list was
> always more focused on users of the IDE.
NetBeans has the same problem in this case as Apache OpenOffice had 
befor Apache was joined. NetBeans has a load of Mailing lists. I think 
it's important to preserve the archive. But we should be carfull with 
the creation of Lists at the incubator. Too many lists fragmentade the 
community. That's maybe a big philosophy difference between SUN (later 
Oracle) and Apache. SUN builded a load of small groups. Apache normaly 
act as one community. Yes, we can make new lists. if they are needed. 
(It makes not realy fun, to read a list with 200 mails per day). But may 
we should avoid to create new lists, just because they exist befor.

Well, this is just my option.

Regards Raphael

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Hermien Pellissier <mi...@gmail.com>]

Hi,

> That's technically possible of course, but from a community standpoint
> we usually prefer a small number of lists, maybe using [TAGS] in
> subject lines - split by community, not by topic.

I like the idea of having a single list with tags. That way it is easy
to spot whether a new conversation is of interest while still
maintaining maximum communication.

~ Hermien

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

Hi,

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 4:04 PM, Hermien Pellissier <mi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...Will
> we have an equivalent of the dev@platform.netbeans.org list here too
> eventually? That list is targeted at developers that develop third
> party applications on top of the Apache NetBeans Platform,...

That's technically possible of course, but from a community standpoint
we usually prefer a small number of lists, maybe using [TAGS] in
subject lines - split by community, not by topic.

I have no idea how much traffic those lists represent but my gut
recommendation would be to start using the dev@ list for that and
split later if needed. But this is really for people who are more
experienced with the NetBeans community to decide.

-Bertrand

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Hermien Pellissier <mi...@gmail.com>]

Hi,

> My understand is that there are, at least initially, these:
>
> - one for the PPMC
> - one for developers working on Apache NetBeans
> - one for users making use of Apache NetBeans

Putting my Platform Application developer hat on for a second. :) Will
we have an equivalent of the dev@platform.netbeans.org list here too
eventually? That list is targeted at developers that develop third
party applications on top of the Apache NetBeans Platform, or plugins
for the IDE, and as such is more focused on highly technical (code)
questions relating to the platform. Where the existing users list was
always more focused on users of the IDE.

~ Hermien

Re: The various Apache NetBeans (incubating) mailing lists

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

Hi Geertjan,

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 12:55 PM, Geertjan Wielenga
<ge...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> - one for the PPMC

The private@ list is reserved to PPMC members indeed, but it's meant
to be used *very* sparingly.

Basically only to discuss new candidates before electing them there
(to avoid embarassing candidates who might not be elected) and for
things that absolutely really totally positively need to be
confidential to the PPMC.

No technical discussions there, in particular, those must happen in the open.

> - one for developers working on Apache NetBeans

Yes, the public dev@ list. That one is open to anybody who cares to
subscribe and contribute in a respectful and constructive way, not
only to registered committers.

> - one for users making use of Apache NetBeans

Yes, the public users@ list.

> ...Then a next question becomes -- who will be on the PPMC. If we say that
> everyone on the initial committers list will be on the PPMC...

That's my view.

> ...then what is the difference between the mailing list for PPMC and the mailing list for
> developers....

As above, the private@ list is meant to have very little traffic.

All technical/roadmap/process/project discussions and decisions must
happen on dev@.

> ...really cool that we're at this point of the process already....

You're welcome, and us mentors are counting on the incoming NetBeans
community to get their hands dirty now!

Hope this helps,
-Bertrand