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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Ted Leung <tw...@sauria.com> on 2003/09/22 03:42:29 UTC
Re: Getting the distribution onto a download site somewhere ...
Copying to general@incubator for policy check.
On 9/20/2003 1:54 AM, robert burrell donkin wrote:
>
> IIRC incubating projects should not create full releases (the reason
> being that the ASF makes a long term commitment to maintain all full
> releases) until the incubation process is finished (but this policy is
> something that should probably be checked with the incubator pmc).
> instead, unstable (milestone, alpha, beta, gold etc) releases should
> be created. these should be made available for download from the
> appropriate subdirectory of cvs.apache.org. (again, probably the pmc
> are the right people to ask about policy on whether they should be
> made available from an xml subdirectory download or a incubator
> download subdirectory.)
Robert, I understand the concern here, but if there is a version that
has been finished / super tested, etc, it seems a little sily not to
make it stable. If incubation were to fail, and xmlbeans ended up on,
say, Java.net, it's not going to change the quality of the code one way
or another. I sort of thought that we already went through this with
the lists being @xml or @incubator
>
> if you're considering releases, then this might also be a good time to
> consider nightlies and gump (if there are not yet sorted out). gump is
> a meta-builder which re-builds and tests all jakarta projects (and
> many other apache projects) with the latest versions of each
> dependency each day. nightly builds are created every day and uploaded
> to cvs.apache.org. i would recommend that xml beans signs up for both.
>
+1
> - robert
>
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Re: Getting the distribution onto a download site somewhere ...
Posted by Phil Steitz <ph...@steitz.com>.
Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
>> I am not on the Incubator PMC, but I feel that a project still bearing
>> incubator status should not be permitted to make a Release.
>
>
> I do not know what exactly you define as a "release". Is that more than
> a distribution?
>
> An incubator project is expected to build a community. I doubt it can do
> so from the CVS only: That would put the entry level for new users too
> high.
Agreed. Some Apache projects satisfy this need by making nightly builds
available for download. I don't know how this works in the incubator,
but setting up a nightly build process and making the nightlies
available for download could satisfy this need.
Phil
>
>
> Jochen
>
>
>
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Re: Getting the distribution onto a download site somewhere ...
Posted by Phil Steitz <ph...@steitz.com>.
Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
>> I am not on the Incubator PMC, but I feel that a project still bearing
>> incubator status should not be permitted to make a Release.
>
>
> I do not know what exactly you define as a "release". Is that more than
> a distribution?
>
> An incubator project is expected to build a community. I doubt it can do
> so from the CVS only: That would put the entry level for new users too
> high.
Agreed. Some Apache projects satisfy this need by making nightly builds
available for download. I don't know how this works in the incubator,
but setting up a nightly build process and making the nightlies
available for download could satisfy this need.
Phil
>
>
> Jochen
>
>
>
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Re: Getting the distribution onto a download site somewhere ...
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
Really agreed.
And I think this could go for the FTPServer and AltRMI, too.
If you do not have any dist, we (you) can not build
"healthy" community.... banning on dist would be an obstacle.
__ Tetsuya <te...@apache.org> __
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 07:07:46 +0200
(Subject: Re: Getting the distribution onto a download site somewhere ...)
Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@ispsoft.de> wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
> > I am not on the Incubator PMC, but I feel that a project still bearing
> > incubator status should not be permitted to make a Release.
>
> I do not know what exactly you define as a "release". Is that more than a
> distribution?
>
> An incubator project is expected to build a community. I doubt it can do so
> from the CVS only: That would put the entry level for new users too high.
>
>
> Jochen
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Re: Getting the distribution onto a download site somewhere ...
Posted by Phil Steitz <ph...@steitz.com>.
Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
>> I am not on the Incubator PMC, but I feel that a project still bearing
>> incubator status should not be permitted to make a Release.
>
>
> I do not know what exactly you define as a "release". Is that more than
> a distribution?
>
> An incubator project is expected to build a community. I doubt it can do
> so from the CVS only: That would put the entry level for new users too
> high.
Agreed. Some Apache projects satisfy this need by making nightly builds
available for download. I don't know how this works in the incubator,
but setting up a nightly build process and making the nightlies
available for download could satisfy this need.
Phil
>
>
> Jochen
>
>
>
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Re: Getting the distribution onto a download site somewhere ...
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
Really agreed.
And I think this could go for the FTPServer and AltRMI, too.
If you do not have any dist, we (you) can not build
"healthy" community.... banning on dist would be an obstacle.
__ Tetsuya <te...@apache.org> __
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 07:07:46 +0200
(Subject: Re: Getting the distribution onto a download site somewhere ...)
Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@ispsoft.de> wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
> > I am not on the Incubator PMC, but I feel that a project still bearing
> > incubator status should not be permitted to make a Release.
>
> I do not know what exactly you define as a "release". Is that more than a
> distribution?
>
> An incubator project is expected to build a community. I doubt it can do so
> from the CVS only: That would put the entry level for new users too high.
>
>
> Jochen
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Re: Getting the distribution onto a download site somewhere ...
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
Really agreed.
And I think this could go for the FTPServer and AltRMI, too.
If you do not have any dist, we (you) can not build
"healthy" community.... banning on dist would be an obstacle.
__ Tetsuya <te...@apache.org> __
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 07:07:46 +0200
(Subject: Re: Getting the distribution onto a download site somewhere ...)
Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@ispsoft.de> wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
> > I am not on the Incubator PMC, but I feel that a project still bearing
> > incubator status should not be permitted to make a Release.
>
> I do not know what exactly you define as a "release". Is that more than a
> distribution?
>
> An incubator project is expected to build a community. I doubt it can do so
> from the CVS only: That would put the entry level for new users too high.
>
>
> Jochen
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Re: Getting the distribution onto a download site somewhere ...
Posted by Ted Leung <tw...@sauria.com>.
Okay guys, I get the message. I'll ask XML beans to make a
"xmlbeans-is-not-part-of-the-ASF-1.0" release.
On 9/22/2003 10:09 AM, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
>Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
>
>
>>>i think the point is that a podling is *not* part of the
>>>asf, and is therefore not entitled to distribute something
>>>with the asf's name on it. if the podling graduates, i don't
>>>see any bar to whatever packages were built during incubation
>>>being retitled as asf ones.
>>>
>>>
>>There are several things I do not understand here. First of all, IMO, by
>>accepting a project for incubation, it is part of the ASF.
>>
>>
>
>no, it is a *candidate to become* part of the asf. if it fails to
>exit the incubator, for whatever reason, it doesn't wander off into
>the sunset bearing the asf name with it. :-)
>
>
>
>>For whatever
>>other reason am I expected to sign a contribution agreement at the
>>beginning? From your point of view, it would be suffigient to sign when
>>the project exits incubation.
>>
>>
>
>because the code is being stored on asf infrastructure, among other
>things.
>
>
>
>>Next, assuming that my point is wrong, I would assume that incubation is
>>targetted to be a process of transition. Which means, that a project is at
>>some point perhaps not completely ready, but with a sufficient progress.
>>What good does it, to insist in the "final 20 percent" or whatever you are
>>missing?
>>
>>
>
>i'm having trouble parsing that, so i can't respond intelligently.
>can you rephrase?
>
>
>
>>Finally, you should not forget that incubated projects are frequently mature
>>and well maintained. What good does it, to forbid them to publish, for
>>example, a release that is "identical to the last public release, except
>>that the package names are being updated". IMO this is the least what users
>>can expect to guide them in their own transition as soon as possible.
>>
>>
>
>as far as i'm concerned, they can publish whatever they want -- but they
>can't call it an asf release. i don't think any harm would be done if
>a ga release were made during incubation, labeled with the pre-incubation
>name (i.e., not mentioning the asf at all), but i'd have to consider it more
>to feel sure about that.
>
>
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Re: Getting the distribution onto a download site somewhere ...
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
>
>> i think the point is that a podling is *not* part of the
>> asf, and is therefore not entitled to distribute something
>> with the asf's name on it. if the podling graduates, i don't
>> see any bar to whatever packages were built during incubation
>> being retitled as asf ones.
>
> There are several things I do not understand here. First of all, IMO, by
> accepting a project for incubation, it is part of the ASF.
no, it is a *candidate to become* part of the asf. if it fails to
exit the incubator, for whatever reason, it doesn't wander off into
the sunset bearing the asf name with it. :-)
> For whatever
> other reason am I expected to sign a contribution agreement at the
> beginning? From your point of view, it would be suffigient to sign when
> the project exits incubation.
because the code is being stored on asf infrastructure, among other
things.
> Next, assuming that my point is wrong, I would assume that incubation is
> targetted to be a process of transition. Which means, that a project is at
> some point perhaps not completely ready, but with a sufficient progress.
> What good does it, to insist in the "final 20 percent" or whatever you are
> missing?
i'm having trouble parsing that, so i can't respond intelligently.
can you rephrase?
> Finally, you should not forget that incubated projects are frequently mature
> and well maintained. What good does it, to forbid them to publish, for
> example, a release that is "identical to the last public release, except
> that the package names are being updated". IMO this is the least what users
> can expect to guide them in their own transition as soon as possible.
as far as i'm concerned, they can publish whatever they want -- but they
can't call it an asf release. i don't think any harm would be done if
a ga release were made during incubation, labeled with the pre-incubation
name (i.e., not mentioning the asf at all), but i'd have to consider it more
to feel sure about that.
--
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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RE: Getting the distribution onto a download site somewhere ...
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Jochen,
A project is accepted into the Incubator on the hopes that it WILL become an
ASF project. However, it still needs to meet certain critera (the exit
criteria). Those criteria should include having a healthy Community, which
helps to ensure its long term survival; and having all legal issues
resolved, which permits it to be legally released under the ASF copyright.
If those criteria have not been met, I do believe that the project should
not be permitted to release a package with the imprimatur (Offical Approval)
of the ASF. I would sooner permit a project to release something with known
(and documented) bugs than to release something with legal entanglements. I
don't care how mature the code. Software has bugs. Entanglements have
lawyers.
Those are the issues that come to my mind. The Incubator PMC may have
others.
Personally, I think that snapshots marked as test builds and perhaps also
carrying a file listing the project's incubation status, would be OK.
Again, the Incubator PMC may share or differ on that view.
--- Noel
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Re: Getting the distribution onto a download site somewhere ...
Posted by Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@ispsoft.de>.
Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
> i disagree. the lack of a release snapshot doesn't seem to
> interfere with sourceforge projects attracting people, and
> i don't see that it would be any different here.
The lack of release snapshots on sf.net is (IMO) the best indicator, that
the project isn't maintained well or even not at all. At least I cannot
remember a single case of a project without published files, where the CVS
did contain something useful.
> i think the point is that a podling is *not* part of the
> asf, and is therefore not entitled to distribute something
> with the asf's name on it. if the podling graduates, i don't
> see any bar to whatever packages were built during incubation
> being retitled as asf ones.
There are several things I do not understand here. First of all, IMO, by
accepting a project for incubation, it is part of the ASF. For whatever
other reason am I expected to sign a contribution agreement at the
beginning? From your point of view, it would be suffigient to sign when
the project exits incubation.
Next, assuming that my point is wrong, I would assume that incubation is
targetted to be a process of transition. Which means, that a project is at
some point perhaps not completely ready, but with a sufficient progress.
What good does it, to insist in the "final 20 percent" or whatever you are
missing?
Finally, you should not forget that incubated projects are frequently mature
and well maintained. What good does it, to forbid them to publish, for
example, a release that is "identical to the last public release, except
that the package names are being updated". IMO this is the least what users
can expect to guide them in their own transition as soon as possible.
Jochen
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Re: Getting the distribution onto a download site somewhere ...
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
>
> Thanks, understood. In that case, I'd hold my argument, that the incubated
> project requires the ability for Releases in order to attract external users
> and build a community.
i disagree. the lack of a release snapshot doesn't seem to
interfere with sourceforge projects attracting people, and
i don't see that it would be any different here.
i think the point is that a podling is *not* part of the
asf, and is therefore not entitled to distribute something
with the asf's name on it. if the podling graduates, i don't
see any bar to whatever packages were built during incubation
being retitled as asf ones.
--
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: Getting the distribution onto a download site somewhere ...
Posted by robert burrell donkin <rd...@apache.org>.
On Monday, September 22, 2003, at 07:54 AM, Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
>> See http://httpd.apache.org/dev/release.html for the httpd project's
>> guidelines. They use the term "release" the way that Jakarta projects
>> will
>> use the term "build", but the overall effect is the same. See
>> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/binindex.cgi for a description of the
>> guidelines used by Jakarta and related projects.
>
> Thanks, understood. In that case, I'd hold my argument, that the
> incubated project requires the ability for Releases in order to attract
> external users and build a community.
FWIW
my experience at jakarta has been that momentum is much more important
than Releases. in fact, some of the most talked about new java products
here at apache (maven, jelly, geronimo) have never had a Release.
- robert
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Re: Getting the distribution onto a download site somewhere ...
Posted by Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@ispsoft.de>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> See http://httpd.apache.org/dev/release.html for the httpd project's
> guidelines. They use the term "release" the way that Jakarta projects will
> use the term "build", but the overall effect is the same. See
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/binindex.cgi for a description of the
> guidelines used by Jakarta and related projects.
Thanks, understood. In that case, I'd hold my argument, that the incubated
project requires the ability for Releases in order to attract external users
and build a community.
Jochen
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RE: Getting the distribution onto a download site somewhere ...
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> > Capital R. A "Release" build is a specific notion within the ASF. Not
all
> > builds are created equal, and no one was talking about distribution from
CVS
> > only.
> Would you mind to explain me what the specific notion means?
See http://httpd.apache.org/dev/release.html for the httpd project's
guidelines. They use the term "release" the way that Jakarta projects will
use the term "build", but the overall effect is the same. See
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/binindex.cgi for a description of the
guidelines used by Jakarta and related projects.
Basically the terminology maps, except that httpd calls things a release and
Jakarta calls them a build. So, roughly speaking, you might look at it as:
httpd Jakarta
----- -------
Nightly build (automated, might not compile)
alpha release
beta release Milestone build
GA release Release build
That is why I make sure to write Release with a capital 'R' when referring
to a Release build.
These are just guidelines. For example, the Apache James project hasn't
been putting out nightly builds, but we do put out test builds that are not
considered milestones. Those would be more like an alpha release in httpd
project terms.
--- Noel
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Re: Getting the distribution onto a download site somewhere ...
Posted by Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@ispsoft.de>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Capital R. A "Release" build is a specific notion within the ASF. Not all
> builds are created equal, and no one was talking about distribution from CVS
> only.
Would you mind to explain me what the specific notion means?
Regards,
Jochen
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RE: Getting the distribution onto a download site somewhere ...
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > I am not on the Incubator PMC, but I feel that a project still bearing
> > incubator status should not be permitted to make a Release.
> I do not know what exactly you define as a "release". Is that more than a
> distribution?
Capital R. A "Release" build is a specific notion within the ASF. Not all
builds are created equal, and no one was talking about distribution from CVS
only.
--- Noel
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RE: Getting the distribution onto a download site somewhere ...
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > I am not on the Incubator PMC, but I feel that a project still bearing
> > incubator status should not be permitted to make a Release.
> I do not know what exactly you define as a "release". Is that more than a
> distribution?
Capital R. A "Release" build is a specific notion within the ASF. Not all
builds are created equal, and no one was talking about distribution from CVS
only.
--- Noel
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RE: Getting the distribution onto a download site somewhere ...
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > I am not on the Incubator PMC, but I feel that a project still bearing
> > incubator status should not be permitted to make a Release.
> I do not know what exactly you define as a "release". Is that more than a
> distribution?
Capital R. A "Release" build is a specific notion within the ASF. Not all
builds are created equal, and no one was talking about distribution from CVS
only.
--- Noel
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Re: Getting the distribution onto a download site somewhere ...
Posted by Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@ispsoft.de>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> I am not on the Incubator PMC, but I feel that a project still bearing
> incubator status should not be permitted to make a Release.
I do not know what exactly you define as a "release". Is that more than a
distribution?
An incubator project is expected to build a community. I doubt it can do so
from the CVS only: That would put the entry level for new users too high.
Jochen
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Re: Getting the distribution onto a download site somewhere ...
Posted by Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@ispsoft.de>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> I am not on the Incubator PMC, but I feel that a project still bearing
> incubator status should not be permitted to make a Release.
I do not know what exactly you define as a "release". Is that more than a
distribution?
An incubator project is expected to build a community. I doubt it can do so
from the CVS only: That would put the entry level for new users too high.
Jochen
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Re: Getting the distribution onto a download site somewhere ...
Posted by Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@ispsoft.de>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> I am not on the Incubator PMC, but I feel that a project still bearing
> incubator status should not be permitted to make a Release.
I do not know what exactly you define as a "release". Is that more than a
distribution?
An incubator project is expected to build a community. I doubt it can do so
from the CVS only: That would put the entry level for new users too high.
Jochen
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RE: Getting the distribution onto a download site somewhere ...
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Ted,
> if there is a version that has been finished / super tested, etc,
> it seems a little sily not to make it stable.
Stable, yes. Labeled as an ASF Release, no. In my view.
I am not on the Incubator PMC, but I feel that a project still bearing
incubator status should not be permitted to make a Release. Release status
carries an imprimatur inappropriate for a project that has not entered the
ASF proper. Basically, I would consider that by definition, on the basis
that if a project is ready to make a Release, and isn't ready to leave the
Incubator, then any reasons keeping it in the Incubator are reasons why it
should not make a Release. Yes, if a project is ready to produce a Release,
its status in the Incubator should be examined to see whether or not it has
been successfully fledged, and any issues keeping it in the Incubator should
be the focus of work to resolve.
Projects under incubation should be permitted to put out test builds clearly
indicated as such. I am not particularly concerned about whether a test
build is located under cvs.apache.org/builds/incubator/project or
cvs.apache.org/builds/TLP/project, but the Incubator PMC might have a
stronger opinion.
--- Noel
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RE: Getting the distribution onto a download site somewhere ...
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Ted,
> if there is a version that has been finished / super tested, etc,
> it seems a little sily not to make it stable.
Stable, yes. Labeled as an ASF Release, no. In my view.
I am not on the Incubator PMC, but I feel that a project still bearing
incubator status should not be permitted to make a Release. Release status
carries an imprimatur inappropriate for a project that has not entered the
ASF proper. Basically, I would consider that by definition, on the basis
that if a project is ready to make a Release, and isn't ready to leave the
Incubator, then any reasons keeping it in the Incubator are reasons why it
should not make a Release. Yes, if a project is ready to produce a Release,
its status in the Incubator should be examined to see whether or not it has
been successfully fledged, and any issues keeping it in the Incubator should
be the focus of work to resolve.
Projects under incubation should be permitted to put out test builds clearly
indicated as such. I am not particularly concerned about whether a test
build is located under cvs.apache.org/builds/incubator/project or
cvs.apache.org/builds/TLP/project, but the Incubator PMC might have a
stronger opinion.
--- Noel
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RE: Getting the distribution onto a download site somewhere ...
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Ted,
> if there is a version that has been finished / super tested, etc,
> it seems a little sily not to make it stable.
Stable, yes. Labeled as an ASF Release, no. In my view.
I am not on the Incubator PMC, but I feel that a project still bearing
incubator status should not be permitted to make a Release. Release status
carries an imprimatur inappropriate for a project that has not entered the
ASF proper. Basically, I would consider that by definition, on the basis
that if a project is ready to make a Release, and isn't ready to leave the
Incubator, then any reasons keeping it in the Incubator are reasons why it
should not make a Release. Yes, if a project is ready to produce a Release,
its status in the Incubator should be examined to see whether or not it has
been successfully fledged, and any issues keeping it in the Incubator should
be the focus of work to resolve.
Projects under incubation should be permitted to put out test builds clearly
indicated as such. I am not particularly concerned about whether a test
build is located under cvs.apache.org/builds/incubator/project or
cvs.apache.org/builds/TLP/project, but the Incubator PMC might have a
stronger opinion.
--- Noel
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To unsubscribe, e-mail: xmlbeans-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: xmlbeans-dev-help@xml.apache.org
Apache XMLBeans Project -- URL: http://xml.apache.org/xmlbeans/