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Posted to dev@community.apache.org by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com> on 2019/07/16 17:51:50 UTC
Focused effort on Apache Way education
I think that the events of the last several months have clearly shown a lack of awareness, knowledge and (and some level) appreciation (adherence) to The Apache Way. It would be useful, I think, if this was a focused effort w/i the foundation.
Of course, there is a lot of overlap between ComDev and this effort, and so the questions are how best to address this. Maybe some sort of sub-cmmt under ComDev? Or spinning this out ala D&I (but as a PMC to avoid the problems that cmmt encountered and to engender trust and collaboration)? Or basically focus on it w/i ComDev with the structure "as is"... I think having one person "tasked" with herding the cats and coordinating the effort would be useful (and I volunteer to do so), no matter what structure we decide.
Thoughts? Ideas?
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Re: Focused effort on Apache Way education
Posted by Isabel Drost-Fromm <is...@apache.org>.
Am 16. Juli 2019 23:43:19 MESZ schrieb Dmitriy Pavlov <dp...@apache.org>:
>I know about the excellent slides done by Shane
>http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#2
That's one nice source. Also there's several good slide decks out there.
I've given a related talk before I headed off to vacation there: https://youtu.be/b5pl0YNfVPs happy to share the material.
If you're doing a training: maybe create an online version, including an exercise where groups are tasked with some exploration themselves:
What are the most important values to you?
How would you go about community problem X?
How would you integrate feature y of your development mangement tooling, eg code ownership?
What ppl figure out themselves sticks better than what you tell them. Plus you can collect answers for all trainings and publish them.
Also before creating material, have you considered assessing the level of Apache Way understanding among users of our software* and what their need for further training looks like?
Isabel
* Not only casting the net of potential interested ppl wide - they are the ones that should be most interested in understanding how we work, what benefit that brings to their business, why they should engage and where all of that stuff comes from: after all Jim's original story is all about users of an open source project starting to become active themselves.
--
This message was sent with K-9 from a mobile device with swipe to type enabled. I'm sorry for any embarrassing typos that slipped through.
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Re: Focused effort on Apache Way education
Posted by Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>.
Sometimes the short replies are the most beautiful
Thank you Jim!
: o),
Myrle
On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 9:34 PM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> a super-quick reply:
>
> IMO, all aspects of the Apache Way can be found at the start. Basically,
> there were a number of people heavily dependent on a hunk of software, the
> single person who was writing it left, and it left us (and everyone else
> who was using it) in a lurch.
>
> We never want that to ever happen to anyone again. We want to build
> healthy, viable, long-term communities around software projects; we want to
> optimize for the volunteer contributor, because if they are passionate
> about the project/community, they will stay with it, and work on it in
> their spare time. We want it easy as possible to bring in new blood, make
> it worth their while to do so, and enable them to have just as much
> influence and say as people who have spent longer times on the project, as
> true peers. We don't want to disenfranchise anyone because who knows where
> potential contributors could come from. And because we were all using the
> software for various personal self-interest reasons, we wanted a pragmatic
> license and collaboration process.
>
> It is from this mindset, that all tenets of The Apache Way derive...
>
> > On Jul 17, 2019, at 3:03 PM, Dave Fisher <wa...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Jul 17, 2019, at 10:12 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Jul 17, 2019, at 12:41 PM, Kenneth Knowles <ke...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 9:20 AM Joan Touzet <wohali@apache.org
> <ma...@apache.org>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hey y'all,
> >>>>
> >>>> On 2019-07-17 7:53, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> >>>>>> On Jul 17, 2019, at 2:56 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> >>>> bdelacretaz@apache.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 1:11 AM Dave Fisher <wa...@comcast.net>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>> ...I’d like to see the Apache Way described like Euclidean
> Geometry....
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I have no clue what this would look like but I'd love to see a blog
> >>>>>> post of yours describing that vision.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> +1
> >>>>
> >>>> This was where I was aiming with my original post on board@ (which
> many
> >>>> of you may not be able to see).
> >>>>
> >>>> I mentioned I often refer to Shane's summary because it's simple,
> >>>> concise, and includes the why as well as the what. But I'm aware that
> >>>> it's just one viewpoint - the website makes that perfectly clear, too.
> >>>>
> >>>> It's been said to me that a lot of The Apache Way can't be written
> down,
> >>>> and I would like to challenge that assertion. I'd also like the people
> >>>> who claim to know the Way best to work as hard as possible on that,
> too.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> We need all those voices of how people interpret The Apache Way. And as
> >>>> Dave hints, we can triangulate its essence with more and more
> >>>> descriptions. I think it'd be premature to try for that triangulation
> >>>> without interested parties working on capturing it for themselves
> first,
> >>>> revised for a 2019 perspective.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Exactly. Sometimes when it is said it cannot be written down, it can
> mean
> >>> that it cannot be written down simply and declaratively. Or that it
> cannot
> >>> be expressed by being written just once or one way or by one or a few
> >>> people. The concepts in a novel, an ethnography, or a biography, or
> even
> >>> short parables, for example, cannot be simply extracted and written as
> >>> declarations. The practices of a culture cannot be described fully
> either,
> >>> nor transmitted by reading. It may be that the large corpus of writing
> and
> >>> slideshows and talking about The Apache Way is a great way to, in fact,
> >>> write it down. And IMO in such a situation it is important to keep
> writing
> >>> about it, and have new people keep writing their take, and to share
> stories
> >>> about it. Etc. And of course, it should be expected to constantly
> change.
> >>>
> >>> Kenn
> >>>
> >>
> >> That is why Sally and I have pushed for Apache Way training similar to
> what Sally does with her media training... open discussion, time for Q&A,
> that sort of thing. Sure, writing it down and having it documented is
> useful, but that isn't a complete solution, nor does it solve the problem
> completely.
> >
> > A page at way.apache.org would be good. Here’s is what I had in mind
> when I mentioned Euclidean Geometry. All of it follows from five postulates
> which are statements.
> >
> > Jim - since you are a Founder I am asking you:
> >
> > What are the postulates to the Apache Way as simple statements with the
> elegance of Euclid?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Dave
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> >
>
>
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>
Re: Focused effort on Apache Way education
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
a super-quick reply:
IMO, all aspects of the Apache Way can be found at the start. Basically, there were a number of people heavily dependent on a hunk of software, the single person who was writing it left, and it left us (and everyone else who was using it) in a lurch.
We never want that to ever happen to anyone again. We want to build healthy, viable, long-term communities around software projects; we want to optimize for the volunteer contributor, because if they are passionate about the project/community, they will stay with it, and work on it in their spare time. We want it easy as possible to bring in new blood, make it worth their while to do so, and enable them to have just as much influence and say as people who have spent longer times on the project, as true peers. We don't want to disenfranchise anyone because who knows where potential contributors could come from. And because we were all using the software for various personal self-interest reasons, we wanted a pragmatic license and collaboration process.
It is from this mindset, that all tenets of The Apache Way derive...
> On Jul 17, 2019, at 3:03 PM, Dave Fisher <wa...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>> On Jul 17, 2019, at 10:12 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Jul 17, 2019, at 12:41 PM, Kenneth Knowles <ke...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 9:20 AM Joan Touzet <wohali@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hey y'all,
>>>>
>>>> On 2019-07-17 7:53, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>>>>>> On Jul 17, 2019, at 2:56 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
>>>> bdelacretaz@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 1:11 AM Dave Fisher <wa...@comcast.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> ...I’d like to see the Apache Way described like Euclidean Geometry....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have no clue what this would look like but I'd love to see a blog
>>>>>> post of yours describing that vision.
>>>>>>
>>>>> +1
>>>>
>>>> This was where I was aiming with my original post on board@ (which many
>>>> of you may not be able to see).
>>>>
>>>> I mentioned I often refer to Shane's summary because it's simple,
>>>> concise, and includes the why as well as the what. But I'm aware that
>>>> it's just one viewpoint - the website makes that perfectly clear, too.
>>>>
>>>> It's been said to me that a lot of The Apache Way can't be written down,
>>>> and I would like to challenge that assertion. I'd also like the people
>>>> who claim to know the Way best to work as hard as possible on that, too.
>>>>
>>>
>>> We need all those voices of how people interpret The Apache Way. And as
>>>> Dave hints, we can triangulate its essence with more and more
>>>> descriptions. I think it'd be premature to try for that triangulation
>>>> without interested parties working on capturing it for themselves first,
>>>> revised for a 2019 perspective.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Exactly. Sometimes when it is said it cannot be written down, it can mean
>>> that it cannot be written down simply and declaratively. Or that it cannot
>>> be expressed by being written just once or one way or by one or a few
>>> people. The concepts in a novel, an ethnography, or a biography, or even
>>> short parables, for example, cannot be simply extracted and written as
>>> declarations. The practices of a culture cannot be described fully either,
>>> nor transmitted by reading. It may be that the large corpus of writing and
>>> slideshows and talking about The Apache Way is a great way to, in fact,
>>> write it down. And IMO in such a situation it is important to keep writing
>>> about it, and have new people keep writing their take, and to share stories
>>> about it. Etc. And of course, it should be expected to constantly change.
>>>
>>> Kenn
>>>
>>
>> That is why Sally and I have pushed for Apache Way training similar to what Sally does with her media training... open discussion, time for Q&A, that sort of thing. Sure, writing it down and having it documented is useful, but that isn't a complete solution, nor does it solve the problem completely.
>
> A page at way.apache.org would be good. Here’s is what I had in mind when I mentioned Euclidean Geometry. All of it follows from five postulates which are statements.
>
> Jim - since you are a Founder I am asking you:
>
> What are the postulates to the Apache Way as simple statements with the elegance of Euclid?
>
> Regards,
> Dave
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
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Re: Focused effort on Apache Way education
Posted by Dave Fisher <wa...@apache.org>.
> On Jul 17, 2019, at 10:12 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>> On Jul 17, 2019, at 12:41 PM, Kenneth Knowles <ke...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 9:20 AM Joan Touzet <wohali@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hey y'all,
>>>
>>> On 2019-07-17 7:53, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>>>>> On Jul 17, 2019, at 2:56 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
>>> bdelacretaz@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 1:11 AM Dave Fisher <wa...@comcast.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>> ...I’d like to see the Apache Way described like Euclidean Geometry....
>>>>>
>>>>> I have no clue what this would look like but I'd love to see a blog
>>>>> post of yours describing that vision.
>>>>>
>>>> +1
>>>
>>> This was where I was aiming with my original post on board@ (which many
>>> of you may not be able to see).
>>>
>>> I mentioned I often refer to Shane's summary because it's simple,
>>> concise, and includes the why as well as the what. But I'm aware that
>>> it's just one viewpoint - the website makes that perfectly clear, too.
>>>
>>> It's been said to me that a lot of The Apache Way can't be written down,
>>> and I would like to challenge that assertion. I'd also like the people
>>> who claim to know the Way best to work as hard as possible on that, too.
>>>
>>
>> We need all those voices of how people interpret The Apache Way. And as
>>> Dave hints, we can triangulate its essence with more and more
>>> descriptions. I think it'd be premature to try for that triangulation
>>> without interested parties working on capturing it for themselves first,
>>> revised for a 2019 perspective.
>>>
>>
>> Exactly. Sometimes when it is said it cannot be written down, it can mean
>> that it cannot be written down simply and declaratively. Or that it cannot
>> be expressed by being written just once or one way or by one or a few
>> people. The concepts in a novel, an ethnography, or a biography, or even
>> short parables, for example, cannot be simply extracted and written as
>> declarations. The practices of a culture cannot be described fully either,
>> nor transmitted by reading. It may be that the large corpus of writing and
>> slideshows and talking about The Apache Way is a great way to, in fact,
>> write it down. And IMO in such a situation it is important to keep writing
>> about it, and have new people keep writing their take, and to share stories
>> about it. Etc. And of course, it should be expected to constantly change.
>>
>> Kenn
>>
>
> That is why Sally and I have pushed for Apache Way training similar to what Sally does with her media training... open discussion, time for Q&A, that sort of thing. Sure, writing it down and having it documented is useful, but that isn't a complete solution, nor does it solve the problem completely.
A page at way.apache.org would be good. Here’s is what I had in mind when I mentioned Euclidean Geometry. All of it follows from five postulates which are statements.
Jim - since you are a Founder I am asking you:
What are the postulates to the Apache Way as simple statements with the elegance of Euclid?
Regards,
Dave
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Re: Focused effort on Apache Way education
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
> On Jul 17, 2019, at 12:41 PM, Kenneth Knowles <ke...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 9:20 AM Joan Touzet <wohali@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>> wrote:
>
>> Hey y'all,
>>
>> On 2019-07-17 7:53, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>>>> On Jul 17, 2019, at 2:56 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
>> bdelacretaz@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 1:11 AM Dave Fisher <wa...@comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>>>> ...I’d like to see the Apache Way described like Euclidean Geometry....
>>>>
>>>> I have no clue what this would look like but I'd love to see a blog
>>>> post of yours describing that vision.
>>>>
>>> +1
>>
>> This was where I was aiming with my original post on board@ (which many
>> of you may not be able to see).
>>
>> I mentioned I often refer to Shane's summary because it's simple,
>> concise, and includes the why as well as the what. But I'm aware that
>> it's just one viewpoint - the website makes that perfectly clear, too.
>>
>> It's been said to me that a lot of The Apache Way can't be written down,
>> and I would like to challenge that assertion. I'd also like the people
>> who claim to know the Way best to work as hard as possible on that, too.
>>
>
> We need all those voices of how people interpret The Apache Way. And as
>> Dave hints, we can triangulate its essence with more and more
>> descriptions. I think it'd be premature to try for that triangulation
>> without interested parties working on capturing it for themselves first,
>> revised for a 2019 perspective.
>>
>
> Exactly. Sometimes when it is said it cannot be written down, it can mean
> that it cannot be written down simply and declaratively. Or that it cannot
> be expressed by being written just once or one way or by one or a few
> people. The concepts in a novel, an ethnography, or a biography, or even
> short parables, for example, cannot be simply extracted and written as
> declarations. The practices of a culture cannot be described fully either,
> nor transmitted by reading. It may be that the large corpus of writing and
> slideshows and talking about The Apache Way is a great way to, in fact,
> write it down. And IMO in such a situation it is important to keep writing
> about it, and have new people keep writing their take, and to share stories
> about it. Etc. And of course, it should be expected to constantly change.
>
> Kenn
>
That is why Sally and I have pushed for Apache Way training similar to what Sally does with her media training... open discussion, time for Q&A, that sort of thing. Sure, writing it down and having it documented is useful, but that isn't a complete solution, nor does it solve the problem completely.
Re: Focused effort on Apache Way education
Posted by Kenneth Knowles <ke...@apache.org>.
On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 9:20 AM Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hey y'all,
>
> On 2019-07-17 7:53, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> >> On Jul 17, 2019, at 2:56 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> bdelacretaz@apache.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 1:11 AM Dave Fisher <wa...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
> >>> ...I’d like to see the Apache Way described like Euclidean Geometry....
> >>
> >> I have no clue what this would look like but I'd love to see a blog
> >> post of yours describing that vision.
> >>
> > +1
>
> This was where I was aiming with my original post on board@ (which many
> of you may not be able to see).
>
> I mentioned I often refer to Shane's summary because it's simple,
> concise, and includes the why as well as the what. But I'm aware that
> it's just one viewpoint - the website makes that perfectly clear, too.
>
> It's been said to me that a lot of The Apache Way can't be written down,
> and I would like to challenge that assertion. I'd also like the people
> who claim to know the Way best to work as hard as possible on that, too.
>
We need all those voices of how people interpret The Apache Way. And as
> Dave hints, we can triangulate its essence with more and more
> descriptions. I think it'd be premature to try for that triangulation
> without interested parties working on capturing it for themselves first,
> revised for a 2019 perspective.
>
Exactly. Sometimes when it is said it cannot be written down, it can mean
that it cannot be written down simply and declaratively. Or that it cannot
be expressed by being written just once or one way or by one or a few
people. The concepts in a novel, an ethnography, or a biography, or even
short parables, for example, cannot be simply extracted and written as
declarations. The practices of a culture cannot be described fully either,
nor transmitted by reading. It may be that the large corpus of writing and
slideshows and talking about The Apache Way is a great way to, in fact,
write it down. And IMO in such a situation it is important to keep writing
about it, and have new people keep writing their take, and to share stories
about it. Etc. And of course, it should be expected to constantly change.
Kenn
>
> -Joan "dust yourself off and try again" Touzet
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
>
Re: Focused effort on Apache Way education
Posted by Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org>.
Hey y'all,
On 2019-07-17 7:53, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>> On Jul 17, 2019, at 2:56 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 1:11 AM Dave Fisher <wa...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> ...I’d like to see the Apache Way described like Euclidean Geometry....
>>
>> I have no clue what this would look like but I'd love to see a blog
>> post of yours describing that vision.
>>
> +1
This was where I was aiming with my original post on board@ (which many
of you may not be able to see).
I mentioned I often refer to Shane's summary because it's simple,
concise, and includes the why as well as the what. But I'm aware that
it's just one viewpoint - the website makes that perfectly clear, too.
It's been said to me that a lot of The Apache Way can't be written down,
and I would like to challenge that assertion. I'd also like the people
who claim to know the Way best to work as hard as possible on that, too.
We need all those voices of how people interpret The Apache Way. And as
Dave hints, we can triangulate its essence with more and more
descriptions. I think it'd be premature to try for that triangulation
without interested parties working on capturing it for themselves first,
revised for a 2019 perspective.
-Joan "dust yourself off and try again" Touzet
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Re: Focused effort on Apache Way education
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
> On Jul 17, 2019, at 2:56 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 1:11 AM Dave Fisher <wa...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> ...I’d like to see the Apache Way described like Euclidean Geometry....
>
> I have no clue what this would look like but I'd love to see a blog
> post of yours describing that vision.
>
+1
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Re: Focused effort on Apache Way education
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 1:11 AM Dave Fisher <wa...@comcast.net> wrote:
> ...I’d like to see the Apache Way described like Euclidean Geometry....
I have no clue what this would look like but I'd love to see a blog
post of yours describing that vision.
IMO, having multiple stories and examples about The Apache Way is a
great way to explain it better.
A way to find these multiple articles would also help. How about
adding links to such articles from
https://www.apache.org/theapacheway/ to keep that as the canonical
URL? Comdev could curate those links.
-Bertrand
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Re: Focused effort on Apache Way education
Posted by Dave Fisher <wa...@comcast.net>.
Inline-
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 16, 2019, at 2:43 PM, Dmitriy Pavlov <dp...@apache.org> wrote:
>> For the purposes of *THIS* discussion, I think that that's a bit of a
> sidetrack.
> Sure.
>
> Jim,
> Despite the fact that I do not fully understand the problem, I am ready to
> volunteer to prepare materials. I don't care if it will be a part of Apache
> Training or Apache Com.Dev or slightly another thing. I just like this
> topic, which why a year ago I've started asking about it here.
>
> I know about the excellent slides done by Shane
> http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#2
>
> I also like the idea of explaining not only principles but all principles'
> impact. Ideal material for education would explain why ASF can't drop each
> component of the Apache Way.
I’d like to see the Apache Way described like Euclidean Geometry.
What are the postulates? What are the theorems built from these?
Regards,
Dave
>
> Sincerely,
> Dmitriy Pavlov
>
>
> вт, 16 июл. 2019 г. в 22:46, Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>:
>
>>
>>
>>> On 7/16/19 2:29 PM, Dmitriy Pavlov wrote:
>>> Hi Jim,
>>>
>>> Could you mention events you're referring to?
>>
>> For the purposes of *THIS* discussion, I think that that's a bit of a
>> sidetrack.
>>
>> Suffice it to say that clearer understanding of the *WHY* around the
>> principles of the Apache Way is necessary, in order that the *WHAT*
>> doesn't get perceived as meaningless, arbitrary, or dispensible.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> In Apache Training (incubating) Justin started to develop content related
>>> to the Incubator
>>>
>> https://github.com/apache/incubator-training/tree/master/content/ApacheWay
>> ,
>>> so we can consider developing a standalone session related to the Apache
>>> Way principles. But to understand if training will be helpful I would
>> like
>>> to know the entire story.
>>>
>>> You can share it with me directly if you want.
>>>
>>> Sincerely
>>> Dmitriy Pavlov
>>>
>>> вт, 16 июл. 2019 г. в 20:52, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com>:
>>>
>>>> I think that the events of the last several months have clearly shown a
>>>> lack of awareness, knowledge and (and some level) appreciation
>> (adherence)
>>>> to The Apache Way. It would be useful, I think, if this was a focused
>>>> effort w/i the foundation.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, there is a lot of overlap between ComDev and this effort, and
>>>> so the questions are how best to address this. Maybe some sort of
>> sub-cmmt
>>>> under ComDev? Or spinning this out ala D&I (but as a PMC to avoid the
>>>> problems that cmmt encountered and to engender trust and
>> collaboration)? Or
>>>> basically focus on it w/i ComDev with the structure "as is"... I think
>>>> having one person "tasked" with herding the cats and coordinating the
>>>> effort would be useful (and I volunteer to do so), no matter what
>> structure
>>>> we decide.
>>>>
>>>> Thoughts? Ideas?
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>>
>>
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Re: Focused effort on Apache Way education
Posted by Dmitriy Pavlov <dp...@apache.org>.
> For the purposes of *THIS* discussion, I think that that's a bit of a
sidetrack.
Sure.
Jim,
Despite the fact that I do not fully understand the problem, I am ready to
volunteer to prepare materials. I don't care if it will be a part of Apache
Training or Apache Com.Dev or slightly another thing. I just like this
topic, which why a year ago I've started asking about it here.
I know about the excellent slides done by Shane
http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#2
I also like the idea of explaining not only principles but all principles'
impact. Ideal material for education would explain why ASF can't drop each
component of the Apache Way.
Sincerely,
Dmitriy Pavlov
вт, 16 июл. 2019 г. в 22:46, Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>:
>
>
> On 7/16/19 2:29 PM, Dmitriy Pavlov wrote:
> > Hi Jim,
> >
> > Could you mention events you're referring to?
>
> For the purposes of *THIS* discussion, I think that that's a bit of a
> sidetrack.
>
> Suffice it to say that clearer understanding of the *WHY* around the
> principles of the Apache Way is necessary, in order that the *WHAT*
> doesn't get perceived as meaningless, arbitrary, or dispensible.
>
>
> >
> > In Apache Training (incubating) Justin started to develop content related
> > to the Incubator
> >
> https://github.com/apache/incubator-training/tree/master/content/ApacheWay
> ,
> > so we can consider developing a standalone session related to the Apache
> > Way principles. But to understand if training will be helpful I would
> like
> > to know the entire story.
> >
> > You can share it with me directly if you want.
> >
> > Sincerely
> > Dmitriy Pavlov
> >
> > вт, 16 июл. 2019 г. в 20:52, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com>:
> >
> >> I think that the events of the last several months have clearly shown a
> >> lack of awareness, knowledge and (and some level) appreciation
> (adherence)
> >> to The Apache Way. It would be useful, I think, if this was a focused
> >> effort w/i the foundation.
> >>
> >> Of course, there is a lot of overlap between ComDev and this effort, and
> >> so the questions are how best to address this. Maybe some sort of
> sub-cmmt
> >> under ComDev? Or spinning this out ala D&I (but as a PMC to avoid the
> >> problems that cmmt encountered and to engender trust and
> collaboration)? Or
> >> basically focus on it w/i ComDev with the structure "as is"... I think
> >> having one person "tasked" with herding the cats and coordinating the
> >> effort would be useful (and I volunteer to do so), no matter what
> structure
> >> we decide.
> >>
> >> Thoughts? Ideas?
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >
>
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>
>
Re: Focused effort on Apache Way education
Posted by Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>.
On 7/16/19 2:29 PM, Dmitriy Pavlov wrote:
> Hi Jim,
>
> Could you mention events you're referring to?
For the purposes of *THIS* discussion, I think that that's a bit of a
sidetrack.
Suffice it to say that clearer understanding of the *WHY* around the
principles of the Apache Way is necessary, in order that the *WHAT*
doesn't get perceived as meaningless, arbitrary, or dispensible.
>
> In Apache Training (incubating) Justin started to develop content related
> to the Incubator
> https://github.com/apache/incubator-training/tree/master/content/ApacheWay ,
> so we can consider developing a standalone session related to the Apache
> Way principles. But to understand if training will be helpful I would like
> to know the entire story.
>
> You can share it with me directly if you want.
>
> Sincerely
> Dmitriy Pavlov
>
> вт, 16 июл. 2019 г. в 20:52, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com>:
>
>> I think that the events of the last several months have clearly shown a
>> lack of awareness, knowledge and (and some level) appreciation (adherence)
>> to The Apache Way. It would be useful, I think, if this was a focused
>> effort w/i the foundation.
>>
>> Of course, there is a lot of overlap between ComDev and this effort, and
>> so the questions are how best to address this. Maybe some sort of sub-cmmt
>> under ComDev? Or spinning this out ala D&I (but as a PMC to avoid the
>> problems that cmmt encountered and to engender trust and collaboration)? Or
>> basically focus on it w/i ComDev with the structure "as is"... I think
>> having one person "tasked" with herding the cats and coordinating the
>> effort would be useful (and I volunteer to do so), no matter what structure
>> we decide.
>>
>> Thoughts? Ideas?
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>>
>>
>
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Re: Focused effort on Apache Way education
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
The events are simply some issues with various aspects of the Apache Way, such as "the foundation does not pay for development" not being completely known by some, or misinterpreted as having a different priority. The intent is to have some centralized/focused "thingie" inside the ASF that could provide this Apache Way education to our own members, projects and directors, as well as be a source of the info for use by ComDev, the Incubator, etc...
Hope this helps! Cheers.
> On Jul 16, 2019, at 2:29 PM, Dmitriy Pavlov <dp...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> Could you mention events you're referring to?
>
> In Apache Training (incubating) Justin started to develop content related
> to the Incubator
> https://github.com/apache/incubator-training/tree/master/content/ApacheWay ,
> so we can consider developing a standalone session related to the Apache
> Way principles. But to understand if training will be helpful I would like
> to know the entire story.
>
> You can share it with me directly if you want.
>
> Sincerely
> Dmitriy Pavlov
>
> вт, 16 июл. 2019 г. в 20:52, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com>:
>
>> I think that the events of the last several months have clearly shown a
>> lack of awareness, knowledge and (and some level) appreciation (adherence)
>> to The Apache Way. It would be useful, I think, if this was a focused
>> effort w/i the foundation.
>>
>> Of course, there is a lot of overlap between ComDev and this effort, and
>> so the questions are how best to address this. Maybe some sort of sub-cmmt
>> under ComDev? Or spinning this out ala D&I (but as a PMC to avoid the
>> problems that cmmt encountered and to engender trust and collaboration)? Or
>> basically focus on it w/i ComDev with the structure "as is"... I think
>> having one person "tasked" with herding the cats and coordinating the
>> effort would be useful (and I volunteer to do so), no matter what structure
>> we decide.
>>
>> Thoughts? Ideas?
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>>
>>
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Re: Focused effort on Apache Way education
Posted by Dmitriy Pavlov <dp...@apache.org>.
Hi Jim,
Could you mention events you're referring to?
In Apache Training (incubating) Justin started to develop content related
to the Incubator
https://github.com/apache/incubator-training/tree/master/content/ApacheWay ,
so we can consider developing a standalone session related to the Apache
Way principles. But to understand if training will be helpful I would like
to know the entire story.
You can share it with me directly if you want.
Sincerely
Dmitriy Pavlov
вт, 16 июл. 2019 г. в 20:52, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com>:
> I think that the events of the last several months have clearly shown a
> lack of awareness, knowledge and (and some level) appreciation (adherence)
> to The Apache Way. It would be useful, I think, if this was a focused
> effort w/i the foundation.
>
> Of course, there is a lot of overlap between ComDev and this effort, and
> so the questions are how best to address this. Maybe some sort of sub-cmmt
> under ComDev? Or spinning this out ala D&I (but as a PMC to avoid the
> problems that cmmt encountered and to engender trust and collaboration)? Or
> basically focus on it w/i ComDev with the structure "as is"... I think
> having one person "tasked" with herding the cats and coordinating the
> effort would be useful (and I volunteer to do so), no matter what structure
> we decide.
>
> Thoughts? Ideas?
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
>
Re: Focused effort on Apache Way education
Posted by Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org>.
For those working on this subject, I have a list of resources, including
detailed pointers to some great slide decks:
http://shaneslides.com/2017/04/History-Of-The-Apache-Way/
Having the whys behind the concepts is important, and having individual
stories to help explain real-life situations also helps. Thus the
effort here is mutual, with various people writing different parts.
My main suggestion is to start a single page on community.a.o that
provides a short overview and then links comprehensively to whatever
content ComDev comes up with. It won't be clear how to best package
everything up for training (or the like) until we have more stories and
we can review the several existing slide decks that have great bits.
ComDev website how to:
https://community.apache.org/about/#about-this-website
--
- Shane
ComDev PMC
The Apache Software Foundation
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Re: Focused effort on Apache Way education
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>.
On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 4:05 PM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 16, 2019, at 5:21 PM, Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 10:52 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I think that the events of the last several months have clearly shown a lack of awareness, knowledge and (and some level) appreciation (adherence) to The Apache Way. It would be useful, I think, if this was a focused effort w/i the foundation.
> >>
> >> Of course, there is a lot of overlap between ComDev and this effort, and so the questions are how best to address this. Maybe some sort of sub-cmmt under ComDev? Or spinning this out ala D&I (but as a PMC to avoid the problems that cmmt encountered and to engender trust and collaboration)? Or basically focus on it w/i ComDev with the structure "as is"... I think having one person "tasked" with herding the cats and coordinating the effort would be useful (and I volunteer to do so), no matter what structure we decide.
> >>
> >> Thoughts? Ideas?
> >
> > As always with Apache Way (hint-hint ;-)) the trick is to JFDI. So if
> > you're passionate about it (the way Gris is passionate about D&I) why
> > don't you just start leading this effort in ComDev? Is there anything
> > that's blocking you at this point, Jim?
> >
>
> Because I prefer coordinating w/ people rather than running off half-cocked. It's basic common courtesy. It how collaboration works.
Whatever happened to *rough* consensus and working code^H^H^H^Hcontent ?
Thanks,
Roman.
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Re: Focused effort on Apache Way education
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
> On Jul 16, 2019, at 5:21 PM, Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 10:52 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>>
>> I think that the events of the last several months have clearly shown a lack of awareness, knowledge and (and some level) appreciation (adherence) to The Apache Way. It would be useful, I think, if this was a focused effort w/i the foundation.
>>
>> Of course, there is a lot of overlap between ComDev and this effort, and so the questions are how best to address this. Maybe some sort of sub-cmmt under ComDev? Or spinning this out ala D&I (but as a PMC to avoid the problems that cmmt encountered and to engender trust and collaboration)? Or basically focus on it w/i ComDev with the structure "as is"... I think having one person "tasked" with herding the cats and coordinating the effort would be useful (and I volunteer to do so), no matter what structure we decide.
>>
>> Thoughts? Ideas?
>
> As always with Apache Way (hint-hint ;-)) the trick is to JFDI. So if
> you're passionate about it (the way Gris is passionate about D&I) why
> don't you just start leading this effort in ComDev? Is there anything
> that's blocking you at this point, Jim?
>
Because I prefer coordinating w/ people rather than running off half-cocked. It's basic common courtesy. It how collaboration works.
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Re: Focused effort on Apache Way education
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>.
On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 10:52 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>
> I think that the events of the last several months have clearly shown a lack of awareness, knowledge and (and some level) appreciation (adherence) to The Apache Way. It would be useful, I think, if this was a focused effort w/i the foundation.
>
> Of course, there is a lot of overlap between ComDev and this effort, and so the questions are how best to address this. Maybe some sort of sub-cmmt under ComDev? Or spinning this out ala D&I (but as a PMC to avoid the problems that cmmt encountered and to engender trust and collaboration)? Or basically focus on it w/i ComDev with the structure "as is"... I think having one person "tasked" with herding the cats and coordinating the effort would be useful (and I volunteer to do so), no matter what structure we decide.
>
> Thoughts? Ideas?
As always with Apache Way (hint-hint ;-)) the trick is to JFDI. So if
you're passionate about it (the way Gris is passionate about D&I) why
don't you just start leading this effort in ComDev? Is there anything
that's blocking you at this point, Jim?
Thanks,
Roman.
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