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Posted to fop-users@xmlgraphics.apache.org by Ilya Khandamirov <il...@gmx.de> on 2005/02/04 14:42:48 UTC

representative example needed

Hi,

I need a representative exampe, of what is possible to do with FOP. For
example, RenderX XEP comes with XML versions of XML, XSLT and XPath specs
and a stylesheet to convert them to XSL-FO (say PDF). The generated PDFs
look very impressive.

Is there an example of this kind for FOP? A single example, that would
demonstrate the best of FOP? In particular, I need a sample xml-xslt pair,
that would produce a good looking PDF, consisting of several dozens of
pages, having a table of content (with links to the content), graphics and
both external and internal links.


Thanks,
Ilya

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Re: representative example needed

Posted by Ilya Khandamirov <il...@gmx.de>.
Hi Julian,

Thank you very much. It looks very much like what i need. While the standard
FOP examples are great for developers, they are not ideally suitable for
demonstrations/presentations/promotions/... on the management level.

I remember you from the XSL List, though i have not been able to participate
in it for approx. 1.5 years already (unfortunately). Your answers were
always of great help.


Regards,
Ilya



> I am maintaining an XSLT that converts RFC2629-style RFC documents to FO 
> (thus, there's a good set of sources to try, but only a limited subset 
> of XSL:FO is actually used). For instance, check 
> <http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc3986.pdf>.
> 
> To support several distinct FO processors, I've been generating 
> XSL-FO-1.1 for some time now, and use back-end XSLTs that either strip 
> off 1.1 extensions or map them to custom extensions.
> 
> In general, I like FOP (last time I checked it was the only free 
> processor that does *most* what I need). I'm also testing with 
> evaluation versions of RenderX and AntennaHouse which seem to be more 
> complete, though.
> 
> For FOP (0.20.5) and my specific application, the main drawbacks are:
> 
> - need to put in specific line-breaking hints because it doesn't 
> understand @page-break-before='always'
> - lack of automatic width computation in tables
> - link area computation problems
> - problems with many footnotes per page
> - various hyphenation issues (discussed on fop-dev 18 months ago, as far 
> as I remember)
> - lack of custom extensions to map XSL 1.1 features to (for duplicate 
> elimination in the index)
> 
> Lots of samples are on <http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/>, the code 
> itself can be found in <http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc2629xslt.zip>
> 
> Best regards, Julian
> 
> -- 
> <green/>bytes GmbH -- http://www.greenbytes.de -- tel:+492512807760
> 
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Re: representative example needed

Posted by Julian Reschke <ju...@gmx.de>.
I am maintaining an XSLT that converts RFC2629-style RFC documents to FO 
(thus, there's a good set of sources to try, but only a limited subset 
of XSL:FO is actually used). For instance, check 
<http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc3986.pdf>.

To support several distinct FO processors, I've been generating 
XSL-FO-1.1 for some time now, and use back-end XSLTs that either strip 
off 1.1 extensions or map them to custom extensions.

In general, I like FOP (last time I checked it was the only free 
processor that does *most* what I need). I'm also testing with 
evaluation versions of RenderX and AntennaHouse which seem to be more 
complete, though.

For FOP (0.20.5) and my specific application, the main drawbacks are:

- need to put in specific line-breaking hints because it doesn't 
understand @page-break-before='always'
- lack of automatic width computation in tables
- link area computation problems
- problems with many footnotes per page
- various hyphenation issues (discussed on fop-dev 18 months ago, as far 
as I remember)
- lack of custom extensions to map XSL 1.1 features to (for duplicate 
elimination in the index)

Lots of samples are on <http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/>, the code 
itself can be found in <http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc2629xslt.zip>

Best regards, Julian

-- 
<green/>bytes GmbH -- http://www.greenbytes.de -- tel:+492512807760

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FOA for FOP

Posted by Subbiah <su...@utdallas.edu>.
HI,
I am trying to figure this out for a long time.
Has anyone use FOA successfully.I tried but found it to be cumbersone and it
never worked for me. If someone is using it maybe we can give it another
shot.

regards,
Subbiah
subbiah@questforum.org  

> -----Original Message-----
> From: JBryant@s-s-t.com [mailto:JBryant@s-s-t.com] 
> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 9:03 AM
> To: fop-user@xml.apache.org
> Subject: Re: representative example needed
> 
> > Thanks!  Success stories ([1] is my favorite)--as well as failures 
> > (honesty of its limitations also being helpful in increasing 
> > confidence in FOP)--are always welcome on this list.
> 
> Oh, you want success stories. That I can do.
> 
> I use FOP to produce all the documentation for a small 
> software firm. I am a consulting technical writer (though I 
> have been programming at least part time since 1987). I am 
> responsible for creating documents both for the company 
> itself and for several customers (each of whom naturally 
> wants their own logos, legal wording, and so on). I use two 
> primary stylesheets with FOP: One to produce most of my 
> conventional documents (user guides, API guides, etc.) and 
> another specifically for data dictionaries. The firm 
> specializes in data warehouses for the software industry, so 
> each customer needs a customized data dictionary. So far, the 
> largest has been over 1600 pages in size, and FOP produces it 
> in about 2 minutes.
> 
> By the way, I use Saxon to write the FO source, since I use a 
> number of XSLT 2 features. I also use Saxon to write the HTML 
> versions of our documents.
> 
> The only thing I really wish FOP had is better control over 
> page breaks. I use small tables to keep headings with their 
> trailing paragraphs and images with their captions. Other 
> than that, I use an attribute in my five levels of heading 
> elements to force a page break (with break-before), so I can 
> make things look OK. Still, I wish it did better with keeps 
> and breaks in general. I gather that's the big problem that 
> drove the creation of a new branch and the current 1.0 
> effort. I've had to accept some other limitations and fiddle 
> with memory settings, but keeps and breaks have been the only 
> real limitation to date.
> 
> In sum, thanks for FOP! It makes me look good with my client 
> and my client's customers. I very much look forward to seeing 
> future versions.
> 
> Jay Bryant
> Bryant Communication Services
> (presently consulting at Synergistic Solution Technologies)
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> 


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Re: representative example needed

Posted by JB...@s-s-t.com.
> Thanks!  Success stories ([1] is my favorite)--as well
> as failures (honesty of its limitations also being
> helpful in increasing confidence in FOP)--are always
> welcome on this list.

Oh, you want success stories. That I can do.

I use FOP to produce all the documentation for a small software firm. I am 
a consulting technical writer (though I have been programming at least 
part time since 1987). I am responsible for creating documents both for 
the company itself and for several customers (each of whom naturally wants 
their own logos, legal wording, and so on). I use two primary stylesheets 
with FOP: One to produce most of my conventional documents (user guides, 
API guides, etc.) and another specifically for data dictionaries. The firm 
specializes in data warehouses for the software industry, so each customer 
needs a customized data dictionary. So far, the largest has been over 1600 
pages in size, and FOP produces it in about 2 minutes.

By the way, I use Saxon to write the FO source, since I use a number of 
XSLT 2 features. I also use Saxon to write the HTML versions of our 
documents.

The only thing I really wish FOP had is better control over page breaks. I 
use small tables to keep headings with their trailing paragraphs and 
images with their captions. Other than that, I use an attribute in my five 
levels of heading elements to force a page break (with break-before), so I 
can make things look OK. Still, I wish it did better with keeps and breaks 
in general. I gather that's the big problem that drove the creation of a 
new branch and the current 1.0 effort. I've had to accept some other 
limitations and fiddle with memory settings, but keeps and breaks have 
been the only real limitation to date.

In sum, thanks for FOP! It makes me look good with my client and my 
client's customers. I very much look forward to seeing future versions.

Jay Bryant
Bryant Communication Services
(presently consulting at Synergistic Solution Technologies)

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Re: representative example needed

Posted by Glen Mazza <gr...@yahoo.com>.
Thanks!  Success stories ([1] is my favorite)--as well
as failures (honesty of its limitations also being
helpful in increasing confidence in FOP)--are always
welcome on this list.

Glen

[1]
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=fop-user&m=107763815607390&w=2


--- Markus Rietzler <we...@mrietzler.de> wrote:

> we are using FOP to generate tickets for an
> online-ticketing-solution.
> 
> for certain events listed in our online calendar it
> is possible to order 
> tickets online. payments in the online-shop are
> handled via bank account 
> or credit card. after purchase the ticket is
> produced as a pdf document.
> this pdf file can be downloaded and printed out and
> provides all infos 
> to attend the event.
> 
> at the moment we are working to implement a seat
> reservation module for 
> our online ticket shop.
> 
> markus rietzler
> <RIETZLER_SOFTWARE/>
> 


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Re: representative example needed

Posted by Markus Rietzler <we...@mrietzler.de>.
we are using FOP to generate tickets for an online-ticketing-solution.

for certain events listed in our online calendar it is possible to order 
tickets online. payments in the online-shop are handled via bank account 
or credit card. after purchase the ticket is produced as a pdf document.
this pdf file can be downloaded and printed out and provides all infos 
to attend the event.

at the moment we are working to implement a seat reservation module for 
our online ticket shop.

markus rietzler
<RIETZLER_SOFTWARE/>

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Re: representative example needed

Posted by Luke Shannon <ls...@futurebrand.com>.
I am new to FOP and still have not entirely gotten past the learning curve
Will is referring too.

But with the help of this mailing list, some online resources and an XSL-FO
reference book I have successful in working FOP into one project, and have a
second one nearing completion. So far the results have been very
satisfactory.

This is a very worth while tool to have in your IT tool box.

Luke

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Will Gilbert" <gi...@informagen.com>
To: <fo...@xml.apache.org>
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 10:53 AM
Subject: Re: representative example needed


>
> On Feb 4, 2005, at 10:33 AM, Ilya Khandamirov wrote:
>
> > FOP is popular. I believe, FOP is also good. I just want to find out,
> > how
> > good it is. My hope is, that either the FOP team or one of the numerous
> > happy FOP users could provide me with a representative sample.
>
>
> I want to chime in saying that I am a very happy FOP 'user'.  But
> on-line examples of my work are difficult to provide as they have been
> setup behind corporate firewalls.  Most of my FOP deployments are used
> to assemble reports on demand.
>
> The components of these reports are drawn from several database servers
> throughout the companies enterprise, built into a large XML, which is
> transformed to FO via an XSLT which FOP uses to produce the final PDF.
> This work in done as a Tomcat servlet. This process is browser driven,
> the end-user just clicks a link, then receives an up-to-the-minute PDF
> report.  Most have no idea of the complexity which lies beneath, nor
> should they.
>
> As an outside consultant I have been able to deliver solutions using
> FOP which meet the clients specifications but also empowers them to
> enhance the delivered solution, something they really appreciate.  They
> keep bringing me back for more and more projects, and occasionally to
> fix their XSLT goofs.
>
> The learning curve on XSLT/FOP may be bit steep but the payoffs are
> huge!
>
> --will
>
>
>



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Re: representative example needed

Posted by The Web Maestro <th...@gmail.com>.
Ilya & Will,

Thank you for your interest in FOP. At present, the only XSL-FO 
examples we have access to are in the examples/ directory included with 
the distribution. There may be more robust sample files that I'm 
unaware, created by some of our many users, but we don't have them.

It would be *great* if some enterprising and generous developer could 
spend the time to generate FOP-based XSL-FO documents from the XML, 
XSLT and XPath specs. In fact, that would be a useful tool for 
comparing how fop-0.20.5 compares to fop-1.0-dev (the FOP 
re-design/TRUNK branch). Unfortunately, that hasn't been a priority up 
to this point. Perhaps it could become a priority in the future.

As always, any contributions made to this effort are greatly 
appreciated--and not just by the development team. Our users also 
benefit, as they can use such contributions to demonstrate to 
management types how useful Apache FOP is. Moreover, I believe they can 
help facilitate management to take an active role in contributing to 
FOP development (i.e., allow a developer to 'donate' a portion of 
company time to Apache FOP).

One thing that I know helps, is when we contribute overviews and 
instructions on how to implement complex systems (e.g., the steps for 
taking XML output to a web-based system using Tomcat servlets...).

Cheers!

Web Maestro Clay

On Feb 4, 2005, at 7:53 AM, Will Gilbert wrote:
> On Feb 4, 2005, at 10:33 AM, Ilya Khandamirov wrote:
>> FOP is popular. I believe, FOP is also good. I just want to find out, 
>> how
>> good it is. My hope is, that either the FOP team or one of the 
>> numerous
>> happy FOP users could provide me with a representative sample.
>
> I want to chime in saying that I am a very happy FOP 'user'.  But 
> on-line examples of my work are difficult to provide as they have been 
> setup behind corporate firewalls.  Most of my FOP deployments are used 
> to assemble reports on demand.
>
> The components of these reports are drawn from several database 
> servers throughout the companies enterprise, built into a large XML, 
> which is transformed to FO via an XSLT which FOP uses to produce the 
> final PDF. This work in done as a Tomcat servlet. This process is 
> browser driven, the end-user just clicks a link, then receives an 
> up-to-the-minute PDF report.  Most have no idea of the complexity 
> which lies beneath, nor should they.
>
> As an outside consultant I have been able to deliver solutions using 
> FOP which meet the clients specifications but also empowers them to 
> enhance the delivered solution, something they really appreciate.  
> They keep bringing me back for more and more projects, and 
> occasionally to fix their XSLT goofs.
>
> The learning curve on XSLT/FOP may be bit steep but the payoffs are 
> huge!
>
> --will

Web Maestro Clay
-- 
<th...@gmail.com> - <http://homepage.mac.com/webmaestro/>
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet


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Re: representative example needed

Posted by Will Gilbert <gi...@informagen.com>.
On Feb 4, 2005, at 10:33 AM, Ilya Khandamirov wrote:

> FOP is popular. I believe, FOP is also good. I just want to find out, 
> how
> good it is. My hope is, that either the FOP team or one of the numerous
> happy FOP users could provide me with a representative sample.


I want to chime in saying that I am a very happy FOP 'user'.  But 
on-line examples of my work are difficult to provide as they have been 
setup behind corporate firewalls.  Most of my FOP deployments are used 
to assemble reports on demand.

The components of these reports are drawn from several database servers 
throughout the companies enterprise, built into a large XML, which is 
transformed to FO via an XSLT which FOP uses to produce the final PDF. 
This work in done as a Tomcat servlet. This process is browser driven, 
the end-user just clicks a link, then receives an up-to-the-minute PDF 
report.  Most have no idea of the complexity which lies beneath, nor 
should they.

As an outside consultant I have been able to deliver solutions using 
FOP which meet the clients specifications but also empowers them to 
enhance the delivered solution, something they really appreciate.  They 
keep bringing me back for more and more projects, and occasionally to 
fix their XSLT goofs.

The learning curve on XSLT/FOP may be bit steep but the payoffs are 
huge!

--will



Re: representative example needed [was in fop-user]

Posted by Glen Mazza <gr...@yahoo.com>.
--- Vincent Hennebert <vi...@enseeiht.fr>
wrote:
>
> 
> > You would be most welcome here.
> I really would be glad to help. Sadly I don't have
> much time to devote to Fop. 
> I've begun to read the XSL spec and dive into Fop
> code. I'll still need some 
> time before being able to provide patches. Hope
> you'll hear about me soon...
> 

Hey--don't worry about it.  Do take care of your own
needs first of course.  If you're busy that's fine.

Regards,
Glen


Re: representative example needed [was in fop-user]

Posted by Vincent Hennebert <vi...@enseeiht.fr>.
Glen Mazza a écrit :
> 
> So I think we should wait on this until the W3C makes
> up its own stylesheet without extensions, and makes
> the same stylesheet publicly available for any XSL
> processor to run.
OK. I personally don't feel capable of writing a stylesheet from scratch: I'm 
not familiar enough with XSLT. I would leave this task to someone other (Jay 
Bryant for example said on fop-user he could write a stylesheet).
I'd prefer to contribute to Fop in some other way.

> 
> What may be more "cool"--and a much better selling
> point for FOP anyway--is for the Docbook XSL/PDF
> stylesheets to work well with 1.0 (0.20.5 already does
> a pretty good job with Docbook PDF generation.)  I
> think that's a nicer target than the RenderX
> stylesheet, much more practical for our user base, and
> avoids the copyright headaches.  But it is indeed a
> lot more work.
Well, I could do some work here. I'm already using Docbook to write some 
documents and I have played a bit with the fo stylesheet. For any improvement of 
that stylesheet I should perhaps rather refer to the Docbook developers.

However, IMHO it wouldn't be very useful to hack Docbook's stylesheets in order 
to work around Fop's currents flaws. The development of the HEAD branch is 
evolving quite quickly and any stylesheet improvement would be rather temporary.
Bug reports on Docbook files would perhaps be more useful.
Again, I would rather contribute to Fop by providing patches.

But if you all maintain that it would be really, really useful I can do it ;-)

> 
> We don't care much for making changes to 0.20.5
> anymore.  We focus on 1.0.
I know. That was just because Jeremias and Clay spoke about a comparison between 
Fop 0.20.5 and Fop 1.0dev.

> 
>>Fop 1.0dev (freshly checked out) crashes with a
>>NoSuchMethodError.
> 
> Now *that* is of interest for us.  
> 
>>I can provide details if needed (in form of a
>>Bugzilla entry?).
> 
> Sure for 1.0, please.
> 
I'll try to isolate the problem and reduce the fo file as much as possible. Then 
I'll file a bug report, and, well, if I can, provide a patch...

> 
> No--because again we don't want it anywhere on our
> site--please don't send it to us--it is RenderX's
> stylesheet, not ours.  It is better not to even look
> at it, lest our ideas for a similar stylesheet end up
> coming from their work.
OK, I forget it.

> You would be most welcome here.
I really would be glad to help. Sadly I don't have much time to devote to Fop. 
I've begun to read the XSL spec and dive into Fop code. I'll still need some 
time before being able to provide patches. Hope you'll hear about me soon...

> 
> (BTW, checked your ENSEEIHT website -- looks like a
> wonderful place for a person to grow.)
Well, at least it's a good place to learn computer science (perhaps not as good 
to learn english, though ;-( ).

Cheers,
Vincent

Re: representative example needed [was in fop-user]

Posted by Glen Mazza <gr...@yahoo.com>.
Hello Vincent!

--- Vincent Hennebert <vi...@enseeiht.fr>
wrote:

> [Web Maestro Clay]
> > It would be *great* if some enterprising and
> generous developer could spend 
> > the time to generate FOP-based XSL-FO documents
> from the XML, XSLT and XPath
> >  specs. In fact, that would be a useful tool for
> comparing how fop-0.20.5 
> > compares to fop-1.0-dev (the FOP re-design/TRUNK
> branch). Unfortunately, that
> >  hasn't been a priority up to this point. Perhaps
> it could become a priority
> >  in the future.
> 
> [Jeremias]
> > Oh, it would be sooooo cool if we could have our
> own PDF of the XSL 1.0 
> > specification [1]. The official PDF was created by
> RenderX. I thought about 
> > doing a stylesheet for that myself but I'm
> currently so busy coding on FOP 
> > 1.0dev that I'd be more than happy if someone from
> the user community could 
> > do that. It would also be interesting to compare
> FOP 0.20.5 and FOP 1.0dev 
> > which is under development.
> 
> [Glen]
> > Doughnuts are great!  I really like them.
>

> Hi Fop team,
> 
> would there be anything wrong with using RenderX'
> XSLT stylesheet to produce a
> pdf whith Fop? 

Probably, right now, because if we modify it it would
still be copyrighted by RenderX, so we can't have it
on our site, etc.  We must be very careful to stay
away from their work (I will flatter myself into
thinking that some of them are even subscribed to this
ML ;), and not have their work show up in one form or
another within our project.

So I think we should wait on this until the W3C makes
up its own stylesheet without extensions, and makes
the same stylesheet publicly available for any XSL
processor to run.

What may be more "cool"--and a much better selling
point for FOP anyway--is for the Docbook XSL/PDF
stylesheets to work well with 1.0 (0.20.5 already does
a pretty good job with Docbook PDF generation.)  I
think that's a nicer target than the RenderX
stylesheet, much more practical for our user base, and
avoids the copyright headaches.  But it is indeed a
lot more work.


> Anyway, I have it on my disk and tried to run Fop
> over it. Well, bad news so far ;-(
> Fop 0.20.5 stops at p.16 whith an error message
> (Flow 'xsl-region-body' does not
> map to the region-body in page-master 'blank-page').
> This is the page where
> there is just "This page is intentionally left
> blank".

We don't care much for making changes to 0.20.5
anymore.  We focus on 1.0.


> Fop 1.0dev (freshly checked out) crashes with a
> NoSuchMethodError.

Now *that* is of interest for us.  


> I can provide details if needed (in form of a
> Bugzilla entry?).

Sure for 1.0, please.


> I could adapt the stylesheet to introduce Fop
> extensions (at least for the
> 0.20.5 version, I don't think they are available in
> 1.0dev?), 

No--because again we don't want it anywhere on our
site--please don't send it to us--it is RenderX's
stylesheet, not ours.  It is better not to even look
at it, lest our ideas for a similar stylesheet end up
coming from their work.  (For FOP, BTW, the bookmark
extensions from 0.20.5 were removed in favor of the
1.1 fo:bookmark-tree & Co. formatting objects.)


> and perhaps to
> circumvent Fop's current flaws. If it may be useful
> to the Fop team I would be
> glad to help.
> 

You would be most welcome here.

Thanks,
Glen

(BTW, checked your ENSEEIHT website -- looks like a
wonderful place for a person to grow.)


Re: representative example needed [was in fop-user]

Posted by Vincent Hennebert <vi...@enseeiht.fr>.
[Web Maestro Clay]
> It would be *great* if some enterprising and generous developer could spend 
> the time to generate FOP-based XSL-FO documents from the XML, XSLT and XPath
>  specs. In fact, that would be a useful tool for comparing how fop-0.20.5 
> compares to fop-1.0-dev (the FOP re-design/TRUNK branch). Unfortunately, that
>  hasn't been a priority up to this point. Perhaps it could become a priority
>  in the future.

[Jeremias]
> Oh, it would be sooooo cool if we could have our own PDF of the XSL 1.0 
> specification [1]. The official PDF was created by RenderX. I thought about 
> doing a stylesheet for that myself but I'm currently so busy coding on FOP 
> 1.0dev that I'd be more than happy if someone from the user community could 
> do that. It would also be interesting to compare FOP 0.20.5 and FOP 1.0dev 
> which is under development.

Hi Fop team,

would there be anything wrong with using RenderX' XSLT stylesheet to produce a
pdf whith Fop? As I read this thread on fop-user a week ago, I wondered whether 
RenderX released the stylesheet they used to produce the official pdf of the XSL 
recommendation. Indeed they provided an xmlspec2fo stylesheet on their website 
[1], but now it seems to have disappeared (the site seems to have been refactored).

Anyway, I have it on my disk and tried to run Fop over it. Well, bad news so far ;-(
Fop 0.20.5 stops at p.16 whith an error message (Flow 'xsl-region-body' does not
map to the region-body in page-master 'blank-page'). This is the page where
there is just "This page is intentionally left blank".
Fop 1.0dev (freshly checked out) crashes with a NoSuchMethodError.
As it was just a quick test, I didn't remove Xep extensions; this may be the
cause of the crash.
I can provide details if needed (in form of a Bugzilla entry?).
I could adapt the stylesheet to introduce Fop extensions (at least for the
0.20.5 version, I don't think they are available in 1.0dev?), and perhaps to
circumvent Fop's current flaws. If it may be useful to the Fop team I would be
glad to help.

However, I wonder whether we can use RenderX' stylesheet as a basis. I'm not 
very familiar with legal issues. So far the stylesheet was available on their
website; there is just a copyright statement (© RenderX , 1999-2001) at the
beginning of the file.

What is your opinion?

Vincent

[1] http://www.renderx.com/xmlspec.html

Re: representative example needed

Posted by JB...@s-s-t.com.
> Oh, it would be sooooo cool if we could have our own PDF of the XSL
> 1.0 specification [1]. The official PDF was created by RenderX. I
> thought about doing a stylesheet for that myself but I'm currently
> so busy coding on FOP 1.0dev that I'd be more than happy if
> someone from the user community could do that. It would also be
>  interesting to compare FOP 0.20.5 and FOP 1.0dev which is under
> development.

> [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/xsl/

Well, I downloaded the XML source from W3C and got RenderX's trial product 
to see what they did. After a brief review, I don't see anything in the 
document that I can't handle, but I may get stuck anyway. Anyway, I'll 
work on it on a time-available basis (my clients would like to see their 
work get done, too, you know). Given the size of the thing and the time I 
can devote to it, I bet it'll be a few months before I have anything to to 
show.

Jay Bryant
Bryant Communication Services
(currently on contract at Synergistic Solution Technologies)

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Re: representative example needed

Posted by Jeremias Maerki <de...@greenmail.ch>.
On 04.02.2005 17:06:25 JBryant wrote:
> I was also taken aback by what seems to be a plug for RenderX. FOP does 
> all that I need, so I've never looked at RenderX, and this doesn't seem a 
> like a logical forum in which to plug a commercial product.

I think Glen simply wanted to say that RenderX XEP is currently more
advanced than FOP which is a fact. That doesn't say that FOP is bad. For
most purposes FOP is strong enough. There are simply some (well
documented) restrictions that currently apply. I hope that changes soon.
I'm working on it... :-) Who wants to help?

> Unfortunately, while I have produced several large PDF files (my record so 
> far is a bit over 1600 pages) with FOP, I can't share them with anyone 
> outside the company for which I am consulting.
> 
> I would, however, be willing to develop a large representative example. I 
> would just need the content. From there, I could develop the XSLT that 
> would write the FO that FOP uses (my usual method for writing FO - I 
> generally only look at the FO to debug). So, if someone can provide or 
> point to a large open-source XML document that I could convert with FOP, 
> I'd give it a go.

Oh, it would be sooooo cool if we could have our own PDF of the XSL 1.0
specification [1]. The official PDF was created by RenderX. I thought
about doing a stylesheet for that myself but I'm currently so busy
coding on FOP 1.0dev that I'd be more than happy if someone from the
user community could do that. It would also be interesting to compare
FOP 0.20.5 and FOP 1.0dev which is under development.

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/xsl/


Jeremias Maerki


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Re: representative example needed

Posted by Ilya Khandamirov <il...@gmx.de>.
Hi,

> this doesn't seem a 
> like a logical forum in which to plug a commercial product.

Please do not get me wrong. I do not advertise anything. I'm trying to
compare the existing tools. I could use sources like
http://www.antennahouse.com/xslfo/axf3fo.htm for this, but i prefer to see
real life examples/results. 


> So, if someone can provide or 
> point to a large open-source XML document that I could convert with FOP, 
> I'd give it a go.

Here is the XML spec:
http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-xml-20040204/REC-xml-20040204.xml


Regards,
Ilya



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Re: representative example needed

Posted by Glen Mazza <gr...@yahoo.com>.
Back so soon, Ilya?  ;)  Welcome to Apache FOP!

Glen

--- Ilya Khandamirov <il...@gmx.de> wrote:

> Hi Glen,
> 
> > Oops!  Sorry...Google is giving 2:1 ratio that
> Ilya is
> > male.
> 
> That's right. If you also review other statements of
> yours in this thread,
> you'll understand, that all of them is are just the
> same rubbish. But first
> take a break. You are tired.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Ilya
> 
> 
> -- 
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Re: representative example needed

Posted by Ilya Khandamirov <il...@gmx.de>.
Hi Glen,

> Oops!  Sorry...Google is giving 2:1 ratio that Ilya is
> male.

That's right. If you also review other statements of yours in this thread,
you'll understand, that all of them is are just the same rubbish. But first
take a break. You are tired.


Regards,
Ilya


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Re: representative example needed

Posted by Glen Mazza <gr...@yahoo.com>.
--- Glen Mazza <gr...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> --- JBryant@s-s-t.com wrote:
> >
> > I was also taken aback by what seems to be a plug
> > for RenderX. 
> 
> RenderX is, again, a fine company.  It is run by
> very
> talented people of solid integrity.  I have no
> problem
> endorsing them for Ilya, and I'm sure they will be
> able to provide her the level of customer support
> that
> she needs.
  ^^^

Oops!  Sorry...Google is giving 2:1 ratio that Ilya is
male.

Glen


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Re: representative example needed

Posted by Glen Mazza <gr...@yahoo.com>.
--- JBryant@s-s-t.com wrote:
>
> I was also taken aback by what seems to be a plug
> for RenderX. 

RenderX is, again, a fine company.  It is run by very
talented people of solid integrity.  I have no problem
endorsing them for Ilya, and I'm sure they will be
able to provide her the level of customer support that
she needs.


< FOP does 
> all that I need, so I've never looked at RenderX,

Indeed, as it does for most XSL users, but it won't do
all that *Ilya* needs.  She needs heavy-duty,
I-don't-even-want-to-check-the-website-for-examples
customer support, and open source is simply not the
best model for that type of user.


> and this doesn't seem a 
> like a logical forum in which to plug a commercial
> product.

Sometimes unfortunately we have to.  She's doing a
product comparison, and has an evident requirement of
hand-holding customer support that open source simply
can't provide.  (For example, wanting the FOP team to
manually provide examples to her, instead of her going
to the website or the examples/ directory of our
distribution.)  Hence, my recommendation for her to
look for a commercial product.

As for her "Oh I'm continuing to compare FOP and
RenderX...", "the FOP project seems dead...", "Oh,
Glen, did you just call your team incompetent
buffoons", etc., etc., it appears to me just intended
to intimidate the team into providing 24x7 support for
her, as if the FOP world is going to end if she
chooses RenderX instead.  I will not play that game.  

I'm calling her bluff...she's most welcome to go to
RenderX.

Glen


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Re: representative example needed

Posted by JB...@s-s-t.com.
I was also taken aback by what seems to be a plug for RenderX. FOP does 
all that I need, so I've never looked at RenderX, and this doesn't seem a 
like a logical forum in which to plug a commercial product.

Unfortunately, while I have produced several large PDF files (my record so 
far is a bit over 1600 pages) with FOP, I can't share them with anyone 
outside the company for which I am consulting.

I would, however, be willing to develop a large representative example. I 
would just need the content. From there, I could develop the XSLT that 
would write the FO that FOP uses (my usual method for writing FO - I 
generally only look at the FO to debug). So, if someone can provide or 
point to a large open-source XML document that I could convert with FOP, 
I'd give it a go.

Jay Bryant
Bryant Communication Services
(currently on contract at Synergistic Solution Technologies)




"Ilya Khandamirov" <il...@gmx.de> 
02/04/2005 09:33 AM
Please respond to
fop-user@xml.apache.org


To
fop-user@xml.apache.org
cc

Subject
Re: representative example needed






Hi Glen,

Do you want to say, that people listed under
http://xml.apache.org/fop/team.html (including yourself) are less
professional then RenderX? I do not think so. Or maybe it was the usual
complaint about open source & limited resources? I think, you'll agree, 
that
lack of resources is also often the case in many professional companies, 
and
does not necessary have something to do with open source.

FOP is popular. I believe, FOP is also good. I just want to find out, how
good it is. My hope is, that either the FOP team or one of the numerous
happy FOP users could provide me with a representative sample. 


Regards,
Ilya



> Indeed, RenderX is a very solid product run by a very
> professional company.  It would be hard to go wrong
> with them.
> 
> Glen
> 
> --- Ilya Khandamirov <il...@gmx.de> wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I need a representative exampe, of what is possible
> > to do with FOP. For
> > example, RenderX XEP comes with XML versions of XML,
> > XSLT and XPath specs
> > and a stylesheet to convert them to XSL-FO (say
> > PDF). The generated PDFs
> > look very impressive.
> > 
> 
> 
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Re: representative example needed

Posted by Ilya Khandamirov <il...@gmx.de>.
Hi Glen,

Do you want to say, that people listed under
http://xml.apache.org/fop/team.html (including yourself) are less
professional then RenderX? I do not think so. Or maybe it was the usual
complaint about open source & limited resources? I think, you'll agree, that
lack of resources is also often the case in many professional companies, and
does not necessary have something to do with open source.

FOP is popular. I believe, FOP is also good. I just want to find out, how
good it is. My hope is, that either the FOP team or one of the numerous
happy FOP users could provide me with a representative sample. 


Regards,
Ilya



> Indeed, RenderX is a very solid product run by a very
> professional company.  It would be hard to go wrong
> with them.
> 
> Glen
> 
> --- Ilya Khandamirov <il...@gmx.de> wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I need a representative exampe, of what is possible
> > to do with FOP. For
> > example, RenderX XEP comes with XML versions of XML,
> > XSLT and XPath specs
> > and a stylesheet to convert them to XSL-FO (say
> > PDF). The generated PDFs
> > look very impressive.
> > 
> 
> 
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> 

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Re: representative example needed

Posted by Glen Mazza <gr...@yahoo.com>.
Indeed, RenderX is a very solid product run by a very
professional company.  It would be hard to go wrong
with them.

Glen

--- Ilya Khandamirov <il...@gmx.de> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I need a representative exampe, of what is possible
> to do with FOP. For
> example, RenderX XEP comes with XML versions of XML,
> XSLT and XPath specs
> and a stylesheet to convert them to XSL-FO (say
> PDF). The generated PDFs
> look very impressive.
> 


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