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Posted to dev@esme.apache.org by Anne Kathrine Petterøe <yo...@gmail.com> on 2009/08/10 23:09:22 UTC
Re: Turtles all the way down (or how I learned to love math in computing)
David,
Sorry for the late and short reply. You have already said most of what
I wanted to say by now :)
I think we should definitely go for it.
I am still wondering if we should still keep the "old" ESME too?
Or will it be an either or situation?
And regarding this:
" I could conceivably refocus on G2 (but I do want to know more
details) and let the UI masters work their magic."
-- at the moment we don't have any UI masters on the team, which is
turning into a *serious* problem.
Anyone know a UI developer with free time on his hands?
/Anne
On 5. aug.. 2009, at 17.27, David Pollak wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Vassil Dichev <vd...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
>>> Darren,
>>> I fully agree with you. I have no plans to make ESME harder to
>>> use. At
>> its
>>> core, it's a micro-messaging system. On the other hand, I do want
>>> to
>> make
>>> it easier for people who are not Scala developers with access to
>>> the ESME
>>> source code to build applications on top of ESME. I view this
>>> class of
>> user
>>> as similar to "Excel power users." But Excel power users often
>> distribute
>>> spreadsheets to their co-workers that allow the non-power-users to
>>> get
>>> something new done.
>>
>> If it's too complicated, there could be a plugin/version "extra
>> actions" the way there are separate formula packages for Excel.
>
>
> Yeah... there has to be layered template libraries available to the
> power
> users. This is part of the business model that I'm thinking about...
> basically... an eco-system (marketplace, app store) for composable
> elements.
>
>
>>
>>
>> For complex tasks like this, tooling matters. It should be easy to
>> compose/debug.
>
>
> Yes. I've been thinking about "play this range of updates" or
> "single-step
> this range of updates" so you can see what would happen if you applied
> certain transformations/accumulations.
>
>
>> ESME has some similarities to Yahoo!Pipes- both reroute
>> and transform pieces of text, but in a different context. However,
>> Yahoo!Pipes makes it easy to assemble components graphically like
>> Lego
>> pieces, thereby ensuring that inappropriate pieces don't fit
>> together.
>
>
> Yep. Yahoo! Pipes is a great visual builder... but it also feels very
> "push" rather than "reach into the ether and find what I'm looking
> for."
>
>
>>
>>
>> Vassil
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Lift, the simply functional web framework http://liftweb.net
> Beginning Scala http://www.apress.com/book/view/1430219890
> Follow me: http://twitter.com/dpp
> Git some: http://github.com/dpp
Re: Turtles all the way down (or how I learned to love math in
computing)
Posted by Richard Hirsch <hi...@gmail.com>.
I was/am playing with Mrinal's branch of the new UI. I took his HTML
file with the sidebars and started customizing it to be able to handle
messages, get contacts, etc. Without a real good HTML validator /
editor, I've been hardcoring it with a text editor. Real stone-age
development. I got so far that I was seeing tag cloud with the new
environment. With the JQuery accordian
(http://jquery.bassistance.de/accordion/demo/?p=1.1.1), you could
probably handle the content (groups, etc.) in the sidebar. My idea
was to take Bill's concept and start adding it to mrinal's html page.
I also have some free time this week - maybe we can get started with
the new UI.
D.
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Anne Kathrine
Petterøe<yo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree we should at least finish the UI on the ESME as it is today.
> Dick, which branch are you working on? I should be able to free some time
> this week to help out.
>
> /Anne
>
>
> On 17. aug.. 2009, at 13.09, Richard Hirsch wrote:
>
>> My feeling is that we should get
>>>
>>> something usable even with a Web UI that's just cosmetically improved,
>>> instead of a redesign. Otherwise it's easy for anyone following ESME
>>> to lose interest.
>>
>> I agree. The question is how long do we need for the new UI and will
>> that time block @dpp's G2 efforts.
>>
>> I've been playing with @mrinal's UI branch and trying some stuff out
>> on the stax deployment. Slow going based on my lack of tools / UI
>> experience.
>>
>> D.
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 12:37 PM, Vassil Dichev<vd...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> I think it's important to have a release before we start work in the
>>> new direction. From my point of view the backend already has a
>>> consistent set of features, so I'll now try to finish off features,
>>> fix bugs and write documentation. My feeling is that we should get
>>> something usable even with a Web UI that's just cosmetically improved,
>>> instead of a redesign. Otherwise it's easy for anyone following ESME
>>> to lose interest.
>>>
>>> Vassil
>>>
>
>
Re: Turtles all the way down (or how I learned to love math in computing)
Posted by Anne Kathrine Petterøe <yo...@gmail.com>.
I agree we should at least finish the UI on the ESME as it is today.
Dick, which branch are you working on? I should be able to free some
time this week to help out.
/Anne
On 17. aug.. 2009, at 13.09, Richard Hirsch wrote:
> My feeling is that we should get
>> something usable even with a Web UI that's just cosmetically
>> improved,
>> instead of a redesign. Otherwise it's easy for anyone following ESME
>> to lose interest.
>
> I agree. The question is how long do we need for the new UI and will
> that time block @dpp's G2 efforts.
>
> I've been playing with @mrinal's UI branch and trying some stuff out
> on the stax deployment. Slow going based on my lack of tools / UI
> experience.
>
> D.
>
> On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 12:37 PM, Vassil Dichev<vd...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>> I think it's important to have a release before we start work in the
>> new direction. From my point of view the backend already has a
>> consistent set of features, so I'll now try to finish off features,
>> fix bugs and write documentation. My feeling is that we should get
>> something usable even with a Web UI that's just cosmetically
>> improved,
>> instead of a redesign. Otherwise it's easy for anyone following ESME
>> to lose interest.
>>
>> Vassil
>>
Re: Turtles all the way down (or how I learned to love math in
computing)
Posted by Richard Hirsch <hi...@gmail.com>.
My feeling is that we should get
> something usable even with a Web UI that's just cosmetically improved,
> instead of a redesign. Otherwise it's easy for anyone following ESME
> to lose interest.
I agree. The question is how long do we need for the new UI and will
that time block @dpp's G2 efforts.
I've been playing with @mrinal's UI branch and trying some stuff out
on the stax deployment. Slow going based on my lack of tools / UI
experience.
D.
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 12:37 PM, Vassil Dichev<vd...@apache.org> wrote:
> I think it's important to have a release before we start work in the
> new direction. From my point of view the backend already has a
> consistent set of features, so I'll now try to finish off features,
> fix bugs and write documentation. My feeling is that we should get
> something usable even with a Web UI that's just cosmetically improved,
> instead of a redesign. Otherwise it's easy for anyone following ESME
> to lose interest.
>
> Vassil
>
Re: Turtles all the way down (or how I learned to love math in
computing)
Posted by Vassil Dichev <vd...@apache.org>.
I think it's important to have a release before we start work in the
new direction. From my point of view the backend already has a
consistent set of features, so I'll now try to finish off features,
fix bugs and write documentation. My feeling is that we should get
something usable even with a Web UI that's just cosmetically improved,
instead of a redesign. Otherwise it's easy for anyone following ESME
to lose interest.
Vassil
Re: Turtles all the way down (or how I learned to love math in computing)
Posted by Anne Kathrine Petterøe <yo...@gmail.com>.
David,
Thank you.
I am a bit pressured with deadlines this week, but will sit down
closer to the weekend and answer the second part of your email.
/Anne
On 17. aug.. 2009, at 18.12, David Pollak wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 1:46 AM, Anne Kathrine Petterøe
> <yo...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> I was more just wondering if David would need some help from the
>> rest of
>> us?
>
>
> What I've done so far is to create a project at GitHub (
> http://github.com/dpp/esme_g2/tree/master ) I find Git's branching
> much
> easier to allow for playing and exploring... which will be very
> important in
> the early days. I will add all the ESME committers to the GitHub
> project.
> Once the codebase stabilizes, we can move it into the Apache repo.
> (If the
> Apache powers that be have an issue with this, let's all talk
> through it
> now.)
>
> I think we do need to get to a release of ESME which includes (1) a
> stable
> UI and (2) a flexible authentication system (OpenID, User/pwd,
> etc.) We
> need a stake in the ground that says, "we can ship."
>
> Right now, I've been down in Goat <http://goatrodeo.org>
> Rodeo<http://blog.lostlake.org/index.php?/archives/94-Lift,-Goat-Rodeo-and-Such.html
> >land
> (which, along with Lift, will provide the foundation for G2). My goal
> is to allow the description of G2 with something like (not pseudo
> code, but
> actual Scala code):
>
> ReceiveUpdate[(User, JSON), (User, Update)] %>
> ApplyInterpretations[(User,
> Update), (User, Update)] %> (DistributeTo[(User, Update), (User, User,
> Update)] * PostToInbox[(User, User, Update), Unit])
>
> This will allow for a high level description of the message flow
> process.
> The message flow (inline, Actor-based, distributed) and logic lookup
> (think
> Erlang-style run-time changes to business logic) is handed by the
> runtime
> and does not impact the definition of the business logic.
>
> I've got some good stuff running on my local machine (there's one
> set of
> code that I can't check into the Goat Rodeo repository until I get
> sign-off
> from the author, so this stuff is local to me.)
>
> So, what would be great from the ESME team are:
>
> - A list of external sources and sinks of ESME updates. The list
> includes: Twitter, iCal, generic RSS. I have no idea of where we
> want to
> send (sink) ESME updates. In the above update flow, the sources
> would hook
> to ReceiveUpdate. PostToInbox will result in something other than
> Unit...
> and that would be an attachment point for sinks.
> - A list of apps you'd like to build on top of ESME. My list
> includes:
> To Do (on a pool-by pool basis, so it could be a work-group to-do
> app),
> hours tracking on a project by project basis. Once you have the
> app in
> mind, think about example input (updates) that would drive the
> app, think
> about a tabular data structure for representing the data required
> for the
> app, and how the updates mutate the data table(s) (can this be
> expressed
> with a simple spreadsheet-like formula?)
>
> I hope to formalize the above into (1) coding tasks to write the
> simple
> bridges between the sources/sinks and the core system and (2)
> integration
> tests for the application/example code/documentation for end users.
>
> Sound reasonable?
>
> Thanks,
>
> David
>
> PS -- I'm off ESME today, but back on for most of the rest of the
> week.
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> /Anne
>>
>>
>>
>> On 17. aug.. 2009, at 10.37, Richard Hirsch wrote:
>>
>> As I said in a previous email, I'm assuming that a branch would be
>>> easiest way for @dpp to get started.
>>>
>>> D.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 10:20 PM, Anne Kathrine
>>> Petterøe<yo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> David,
>>>>
>>>> I would say we have all agreed that G2 is the way forward.
>>>> How you thought about how we proceed from here? Who does what?
>>>>
>>>> /Anne
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12. aug.. 2009, at 09.15, Vassil Dichev wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Actually, I think this is an extension to microblogging.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If I microblog:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> tcw: dickh re: #ESME standup time: 30min
>>>>>> todo: add different authentication to #ESME
>>>>>> working on: #ESME authentication
>>>>>> done: #esme authentication
>>>>>>
>>>>>> over the course of a day, those updates are meaningful to
>>>>>> humans, but
>>>>>> can
>>>>>> also be parsed and used to update structured data.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In fact, the idea is not new. Take a look at twitterdata.org :
>>>>> "...simple, open, semi-structured format for embedding
>>>>> machine-readable, yet human-friendly, data in Twitter
>>>>> messages...".
>>>>> That totally defines what we want to do with actions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Granted, you won't see as much interest in processing messages on
>>>>> Twitter as in a corporate environment, but @rtm, @timer and
>>>>> @iwantsandy are still quite popular.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also don't see this as something that replaces what ESME
>>>>> currently
>>>>> is, but as a way to extend ESME. Most likely the change wouldn't
>>>>> even
>>>>> be noticeable, like when Google introduced Calculator- there's no
>>>>> change in the interface, but if you typed "2+2" or "123 in hex" or
>>>>> "sin(pi/4) ^ 2", the result would get evaluated.
>>>>>
>>>>> Vassil
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Lift, the simply functional web framework http://liftweb.net
> Beginning Scala http://www.apress.com/book/view/1430219890
> Follow me: http://twitter.com/dpp
> Git some: http://github.com/dpp
Re: Turtles all the way down (or how I learned to love math in
computing)
Posted by David Pollak <fe...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 1:46 AM, Anne Kathrine Petterøe
<yo...@gmail.com>wrote:
> I was more just wondering if David would need some help from the rest of
> us?
What I've done so far is to create a project at GitHub (
http://github.com/dpp/esme_g2/tree/master ) I find Git's branching much
easier to allow for playing and exploring... which will be very important in
the early days. I will add all the ESME committers to the GitHub project.
Once the codebase stabilizes, we can move it into the Apache repo. (If the
Apache powers that be have an issue with this, let's all talk through it
now.)
I think we do need to get to a release of ESME which includes (1) a stable
UI and (2) a flexible authentication system (OpenID, User/pwd, etc.) We
need a stake in the ground that says, "we can ship."
Right now, I've been down in Goat <http://goatrodeo.org>
Rodeo<http://blog.lostlake.org/index.php?/archives/94-Lift,-Goat-Rodeo-and-Such.html>land
(which, along with Lift, will provide the foundation for G2). My goal
is to allow the description of G2 with something like (not pseudo code, but
actual Scala code):
ReceiveUpdate[(User, JSON), (User, Update)] %> ApplyInterpretations[(User,
Update), (User, Update)] %> (DistributeTo[(User, Update), (User, User,
Update)] * PostToInbox[(User, User, Update), Unit])
This will allow for a high level description of the message flow process.
The message flow (inline, Actor-based, distributed) and logic lookup (think
Erlang-style run-time changes to business logic) is handed by the runtime
and does not impact the definition of the business logic.
I've got some good stuff running on my local machine (there's one set of
code that I can't check into the Goat Rodeo repository until I get sign-off
from the author, so this stuff is local to me.)
So, what would be great from the ESME team are:
- A list of external sources and sinks of ESME updates. The list
includes: Twitter, iCal, generic RSS. I have no idea of where we want to
send (sink) ESME updates. In the above update flow, the sources would hook
to ReceiveUpdate. PostToInbox will result in something other than Unit...
and that would be an attachment point for sinks.
- A list of apps you'd like to build on top of ESME. My list includes:
To Do (on a pool-by pool basis, so it could be a work-group to-do app),
hours tracking on a project by project basis. Once you have the app in
mind, think about example input (updates) that would drive the app, think
about a tabular data structure for representing the data required for the
app, and how the updates mutate the data table(s) (can this be expressed
with a simple spreadsheet-like formula?)
I hope to formalize the above into (1) coding tasks to write the simple
bridges between the sources/sinks and the core system and (2) integration
tests for the application/example code/documentation for end users.
Sound reasonable?
Thanks,
David
PS -- I'm off ESME today, but back on for most of the rest of the week.
>
>
> /Anne
>
>
>
> On 17. aug.. 2009, at 10.37, Richard Hirsch wrote:
>
> As I said in a previous email, I'm assuming that a branch would be
>> easiest way for @dpp to get started.
>>
>> D.
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 10:20 PM, Anne Kathrine
>> Petterøe<yo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> David,
>>>
>>> I would say we have all agreed that G2 is the way forward.
>>> How you thought about how we proceed from here? Who does what?
>>>
>>> /Anne
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12. aug.. 2009, at 09.15, Vassil Dichev wrote:
>>>
>>> Actually, I think this is an extension to microblogging.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I microblog:
>>>>>
>>>>> tcw: dickh re: #ESME standup time: 30min
>>>>> todo: add different authentication to #ESME
>>>>> working on: #ESME authentication
>>>>> done: #esme authentication
>>>>>
>>>>> over the course of a day, those updates are meaningful to humans, but
>>>>> can
>>>>> also be parsed and used to update structured data.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In fact, the idea is not new. Take a look at twitterdata.org :
>>>> "...simple, open, semi-structured format for embedding
>>>> machine-readable, yet human-friendly, data in Twitter messages...".
>>>> That totally defines what we want to do with actions.
>>>>
>>>> Granted, you won't see as much interest in processing messages on
>>>> Twitter as in a corporate environment, but @rtm, @timer and
>>>> @iwantsandy are still quite popular.
>>>>
>>>> I also don't see this as something that replaces what ESME currently
>>>> is, but as a way to extend ESME. Most likely the change wouldn't even
>>>> be noticeable, like when Google introduced Calculator- there's no
>>>> change in the interface, but if you typed "2+2" or "123 in hex" or
>>>> "sin(pi/4) ^ 2", the result would get evaluated.
>>>>
>>>> Vassil
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
--
Lift, the simply functional web framework http://liftweb.net
Beginning Scala http://www.apress.com/book/view/1430219890
Follow me: http://twitter.com/dpp
Git some: http://github.com/dpp
Re: Turtles all the way down (or how I learned to love math in computing)
Posted by Anne Kathrine Petterøe <yo...@gmail.com>.
I was more just wondering if David would need some help from the rest
of us?
/Anne
On 17. aug.. 2009, at 10.37, Richard Hirsch wrote:
> As I said in a previous email, I'm assuming that a branch would be
> easiest way for @dpp to get started.
>
> D.
>
> On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 10:20 PM, Anne Kathrine
> Petterøe<yo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> David,
>>
>> I would say we have all agreed that G2 is the way forward.
>> How you thought about how we proceed from here? Who does what?
>>
>> /Anne
>>
>>
>> On 12. aug.. 2009, at 09.15, Vassil Dichev wrote:
>>
>>>> Actually, I think this is an extension to microblogging.
>>>>
>>>> If I microblog:
>>>>
>>>> tcw: dickh re: #ESME standup time: 30min
>>>> todo: add different authentication to #ESME
>>>> working on: #ESME authentication
>>>> done: #esme authentication
>>>>
>>>> over the course of a day, those updates are meaningful to humans,
>>>> but can
>>>> also be parsed and used to update structured data.
>>>
>>> In fact, the idea is not new. Take a look at twitterdata.org :
>>> "...simple, open, semi-structured format for embedding
>>> machine-readable, yet human-friendly, data in Twitter messages...".
>>> That totally defines what we want to do with actions.
>>>
>>> Granted, you won't see as much interest in processing messages on
>>> Twitter as in a corporate environment, but @rtm, @timer and
>>> @iwantsandy are still quite popular.
>>>
>>> I also don't see this as something that replaces what ESME currently
>>> is, but as a way to extend ESME. Most likely the change wouldn't
>>> even
>>> be noticeable, like when Google introduced Calculator- there's no
>>> change in the interface, but if you typed "2+2" or "123 in hex" or
>>> "sin(pi/4) ^ 2", the result would get evaluated.
>>>
>>> Vassil
>>
>>
Re: Turtles all the way down (or how I learned to love math in
computing)
Posted by Richard Hirsch <hi...@gmail.com>.
As I said in a previous email, I'm assuming that a branch would be
easiest way for @dpp to get started.
D.
On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 10:20 PM, Anne Kathrine
Petterøe<yo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> David,
>
> I would say we have all agreed that G2 is the way forward.
> How you thought about how we proceed from here? Who does what?
>
> /Anne
>
>
> On 12. aug.. 2009, at 09.15, Vassil Dichev wrote:
>
>>> Actually, I think this is an extension to microblogging.
>>>
>>> If I microblog:
>>>
>>> tcw: dickh re: #ESME standup time: 30min
>>> todo: add different authentication to #ESME
>>> working on: #ESME authentication
>>> done: #esme authentication
>>>
>>> over the course of a day, those updates are meaningful to humans, but can
>>> also be parsed and used to update structured data.
>>
>> In fact, the idea is not new. Take a look at twitterdata.org :
>> "...simple, open, semi-structured format for embedding
>> machine-readable, yet human-friendly, data in Twitter messages...".
>> That totally defines what we want to do with actions.
>>
>> Granted, you won't see as much interest in processing messages on
>> Twitter as in a corporate environment, but @rtm, @timer and
>> @iwantsandy are still quite popular.
>>
>> I also don't see this as something that replaces what ESME currently
>> is, but as a way to extend ESME. Most likely the change wouldn't even
>> be noticeable, like when Google introduced Calculator- there's no
>> change in the interface, but if you typed "2+2" or "123 in hex" or
>> "sin(pi/4) ^ 2", the result would get evaluated.
>>
>> Vassil
>
>
Re: Turtles all the way down (or how I learned to love math in computing)
Posted by Anne Kathrine Petterøe <yo...@gmail.com>.
David,
I would say we have all agreed that G2 is the way forward.
How you thought about how we proceed from here? Who does what?
/Anne
On 12. aug.. 2009, at 09.15, Vassil Dichev wrote:
>> Actually, I think this is an extension to microblogging.
>>
>> If I microblog:
>>
>> tcw: dickh re: #ESME standup time: 30min
>> todo: add different authentication to #ESME
>> working on: #ESME authentication
>> done: #esme authentication
>>
>> over the course of a day, those updates are meaningful to humans,
>> but can
>> also be parsed and used to update structured data.
>
> In fact, the idea is not new. Take a look at twitterdata.org :
> "...simple, open, semi-structured format for embedding
> machine-readable, yet human-friendly, data in Twitter messages...".
> That totally defines what we want to do with actions.
>
> Granted, you won't see as much interest in processing messages on
> Twitter as in a corporate environment, but @rtm, @timer and
> @iwantsandy are still quite popular.
>
> I also don't see this as something that replaces what ESME currently
> is, but as a way to extend ESME. Most likely the change wouldn't even
> be noticeable, like when Google introduced Calculator- there's no
> change in the interface, but if you typed "2+2" or "123 in hex" or
> "sin(pi/4) ^ 2", the result would get evaluated.
>
> Vassil
Re: Turtles all the way down (or how I learned to love math in
computing)
Posted by Vassil Dichev <vd...@apache.org>.
> Actually, I think this is an extension to microblogging.
>
> If I microblog:
>
> tcw: dickh re: #ESME standup time: 30min
> todo: add different authentication to #ESME
> working on: #ESME authentication
> done: #esme authentication
>
> over the course of a day, those updates are meaningful to humans, but can
> also be parsed and used to update structured data.
In fact, the idea is not new. Take a look at twitterdata.org :
"...simple, open, semi-structured format for embedding
machine-readable, yet human-friendly, data in Twitter messages...".
That totally defines what we want to do with actions.
Granted, you won't see as much interest in processing messages on
Twitter as in a corporate environment, but @rtm, @timer and
@iwantsandy are still quite popular.
I also don't see this as something that replaces what ESME currently
is, but as a way to extend ESME. Most likely the change wouldn't even
be noticeable, like when Google introduced Calculator- there's no
change in the interface, but if you typed "2+2" or "123 in hex" or
"sin(pi/4) ^ 2", the result would get evaluated.
Vassil
Re: Turtles all the way down (or how I learned to love math in
computing)
Posted by Richard Hirsch <hi...@gmail.com>.
OK. I like the idea of G2 and also the idea of re-using as much
existing code as possible.
Probably be easiest to just create a branch and go for it. That way
you don't have to wait for a vote on the list and can start coding
immediately. Once the branch is stable, we can vote on moving it to
the trunk.
D.
BTW: I'm hoping that your imaginary message "done: #esme
authentication" is true :->
D.
On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 7:52 PM, David
Pollak<fe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 5:08 AM, Richard Hirsch <hi...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> I like the idea of making ESME more available for other types of
>> applications. One application core with micro-blogging being one
>> example of an app that is based on the core.
>
>
> Actually, I think this is an extension to microblogging.
>
> If I microblog:
>
> tcw: dickh re: #ESME standup time: 30min
> todo: add different authentication to #ESME
> working on: #ESME authentication
> done: #esme authentication
>
> over the course of a day, those updates are meaningful to humans, but can
> also be parsed and used to update structured data.
>
> If you can reply to the todo: message with "watch: I care about this
> feature", that might trigger heightening the visibility of updates from this
> to-do item.
>
> So, I think that the "turtles" direction remains pure and true to
> microblogging, but allows people to build (and maybe share) applications
> built on the semi-structured data.
>
>
>>
>>
>> But (and there is always a "but") - don't you you think you are moving
>> more towards ESME being a message-broker / service bus. If this is
>> intended, what then are the distinguishing characteristics regarding
>> other existing message brokers.
>>
>> My other qustion would be: what remains of the existing application?
>> Could we save anything or must be start anew (groan) again.
>
>
> I personally think every line of code I've written should be burned down
> (but I always have a low opinion of the re-use of my code.) I will make
> sure to use as much of Vassil and others' code as I can. Also, I'm going to
> try to preserve the stuff that's UI related.
>
> Thanks,
>
> David
>
>
>>
>>
>> D.
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 11:09 PM, Anne Kathrine
>> Petterøe<yo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > David,
>> >
>> > Sorry for the late and short reply. You have already said most of what I
>> > wanted to say by now :)
>> > I think we should definitely go for it.
>> >
>> > I am still wondering if we should still keep the "old" ESME too?
>> > Or will it be an either or situation?
>> >
>> > And regarding this:
>> > " I could conceivably refocus on G2 (but I do want to know more details)
>> and
>> > let the UI masters work their magic."
>> > -- at the moment we don't have any UI masters on the team, which is
>> turning
>> > into a *serious* problem.
>> > Anyone know a UI developer with free time on his hands?
>> >
>> > /Anne
>> >
>> >
>> > On 5. aug.. 2009, at 17.27, David Pollak wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Vassil Dichev <vd...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>> Darren,
>> >>>> I fully agree with you. I have no plans to make ESME harder to use.
>> At
>> >>>
>> >>> its
>> >>>>
>> >>>> core, it's a micro-messaging system. On the other hand, I do want to
>> >>>
>> >>> make
>> >>>>
>> >>>> it easier for people who are not Scala developers with access to the
>> >>>> ESME
>> >>>> source code to build applications on top of ESME. I view this class
>> of
>> >>>
>> >>> user
>> >>>>
>> >>>> as similar to "Excel power users." But Excel power users often
>> >>>
>> >>> distribute
>> >>>>
>> >>>> spreadsheets to their co-workers that allow the non-power-users to get
>> >>>> something new done.
>> >>>
>> >>> If it's too complicated, there could be a plugin/version "extra
>> >>> actions" the way there are separate formula packages for Excel.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Yeah... there has to be layered template libraries available to the
>> power
>> >> users. This is part of the business model that I'm thinking about...
>> >> basically... an eco-system (marketplace, app store) for composable
>> >> elements.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> For complex tasks like this, tooling matters. It should be easy to
>> >>> compose/debug.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Yes. I've been thinking about "play this range of updates" or
>> >> "single-step
>> >> this range of updates" so you can see what would happen if you applied
>> >> certain transformations/accumulations.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> ESME has some similarities to Yahoo!Pipes- both reroute
>> >>> and transform pieces of text, but in a different context. However,
>> >>> Yahoo!Pipes makes it easy to assemble components graphically like Lego
>> >>> pieces, thereby ensuring that inappropriate pieces don't fit together.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Yep. Yahoo! Pipes is a great visual builder... but it also feels very
>> >> "push" rather than "reach into the ether and find what I'm looking for."
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Vassil
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Lift, the simply functional web framework http://liftweb.net
>> >> Beginning Scala http://www.apress.com/book/view/1430219890
>> >> Follow me: http://twitter.com/dpp
>> >> Git some: http://github.com/dpp
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Lift, the simply functional web framework http://liftweb.net
> Beginning Scala http://www.apress.com/book/view/1430219890
> Follow me: http://twitter.com/dpp
> Git some: http://github.com/dpp
>
Re: Turtles all the way down (or how I learned to love math in
computing)
Posted by David Pollak <fe...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 5:08 AM, Richard Hirsch <hi...@gmail.com>wrote:
> I like the idea of making ESME more available for other types of
> applications. One application core with micro-blogging being one
> example of an app that is based on the core.
Actually, I think this is an extension to microblogging.
If I microblog:
tcw: dickh re: #ESME standup time: 30min
todo: add different authentication to #ESME
working on: #ESME authentication
done: #esme authentication
over the course of a day, those updates are meaningful to humans, but can
also be parsed and used to update structured data.
If you can reply to the todo: message with "watch: I care about this
feature", that might trigger heightening the visibility of updates from this
to-do item.
So, I think that the "turtles" direction remains pure and true to
microblogging, but allows people to build (and maybe share) applications
built on the semi-structured data.
>
>
> But (and there is always a "but") - don't you you think you are moving
> more towards ESME being a message-broker / service bus. If this is
> intended, what then are the distinguishing characteristics regarding
> other existing message brokers.
>
> My other qustion would be: what remains of the existing application?
> Could we save anything or must be start anew (groan) again.
I personally think every line of code I've written should be burned down
(but I always have a low opinion of the re-use of my code.) I will make
sure to use as much of Vassil and others' code as I can. Also, I'm going to
try to preserve the stuff that's UI related.
Thanks,
David
>
>
> D.
>
> On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 11:09 PM, Anne Kathrine
> Petterøe<yo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > David,
> >
> > Sorry for the late and short reply. You have already said most of what I
> > wanted to say by now :)
> > I think we should definitely go for it.
> >
> > I am still wondering if we should still keep the "old" ESME too?
> > Or will it be an either or situation?
> >
> > And regarding this:
> > " I could conceivably refocus on G2 (but I do want to know more details)
> and
> > let the UI masters work their magic."
> > -- at the moment we don't have any UI masters on the team, which is
> turning
> > into a *serious* problem.
> > Anyone know a UI developer with free time on his hands?
> >
> > /Anne
> >
> >
> > On 5. aug.. 2009, at 17.27, David Pollak wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Vassil Dichev <vd...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>>> Darren,
> >>>> I fully agree with you. I have no plans to make ESME harder to use.
> At
> >>>
> >>> its
> >>>>
> >>>> core, it's a micro-messaging system. On the other hand, I do want to
> >>>
> >>> make
> >>>>
> >>>> it easier for people who are not Scala developers with access to the
> >>>> ESME
> >>>> source code to build applications on top of ESME. I view this class
> of
> >>>
> >>> user
> >>>>
> >>>> as similar to "Excel power users." But Excel power users often
> >>>
> >>> distribute
> >>>>
> >>>> spreadsheets to their co-workers that allow the non-power-users to get
> >>>> something new done.
> >>>
> >>> If it's too complicated, there could be a plugin/version "extra
> >>> actions" the way there are separate formula packages for Excel.
> >>
> >>
> >> Yeah... there has to be layered template libraries available to the
> power
> >> users. This is part of the business model that I'm thinking about...
> >> basically... an eco-system (marketplace, app store) for composable
> >> elements.
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> For complex tasks like this, tooling matters. It should be easy to
> >>> compose/debug.
> >>
> >>
> >> Yes. I've been thinking about "play this range of updates" or
> >> "single-step
> >> this range of updates" so you can see what would happen if you applied
> >> certain transformations/accumulations.
> >>
> >>
> >>> ESME has some similarities to Yahoo!Pipes- both reroute
> >>> and transform pieces of text, but in a different context. However,
> >>> Yahoo!Pipes makes it easy to assemble components graphically like Lego
> >>> pieces, thereby ensuring that inappropriate pieces don't fit together.
> >>
> >>
> >> Yep. Yahoo! Pipes is a great visual builder... but it also feels very
> >> "push" rather than "reach into the ether and find what I'm looking for."
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Vassil
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Lift, the simply functional web framework http://liftweb.net
> >> Beginning Scala http://www.apress.com/book/view/1430219890
> >> Follow me: http://twitter.com/dpp
> >> Git some: http://github.com/dpp
> >
> >
>
--
Lift, the simply functional web framework http://liftweb.net
Beginning Scala http://www.apress.com/book/view/1430219890
Follow me: http://twitter.com/dpp
Git some: http://github.com/dpp
Re: Turtles all the way down (or how I learned to love math in
computing)
Posted by Richard Hirsch <hi...@gmail.com>.
I like the idea of making ESME more available for other types of
applications. One application core with micro-blogging being one
example of an app that is based on the core.
But (and there is always a "but") - don't you you think you are moving
more towards ESME being a message-broker / service bus. If this is
intended, what then are the distinguishing characteristics regarding
other existing message brokers.
My other qustion would be: what remains of the existing application?
Could we save anything or must be start anew (groan) again.
D.
On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 11:09 PM, Anne Kathrine
Petterøe<yo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> David,
>
> Sorry for the late and short reply. You have already said most of what I
> wanted to say by now :)
> I think we should definitely go for it.
>
> I am still wondering if we should still keep the "old" ESME too?
> Or will it be an either or situation?
>
> And regarding this:
> " I could conceivably refocus on G2 (but I do want to know more details) and
> let the UI masters work their magic."
> -- at the moment we don't have any UI masters on the team, which is turning
> into a *serious* problem.
> Anyone know a UI developer with free time on his hands?
>
> /Anne
>
>
> On 5. aug.. 2009, at 17.27, David Pollak wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Vassil Dichev <vd...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>>> Darren,
>>>> I fully agree with you. I have no plans to make ESME harder to use. At
>>>
>>> its
>>>>
>>>> core, it's a micro-messaging system. On the other hand, I do want to
>>>
>>> make
>>>>
>>>> it easier for people who are not Scala developers with access to the
>>>> ESME
>>>> source code to build applications on top of ESME. I view this class of
>>>
>>> user
>>>>
>>>> as similar to "Excel power users." But Excel power users often
>>>
>>> distribute
>>>>
>>>> spreadsheets to their co-workers that allow the non-power-users to get
>>>> something new done.
>>>
>>> If it's too complicated, there could be a plugin/version "extra
>>> actions" the way there are separate formula packages for Excel.
>>
>>
>> Yeah... there has to be layered template libraries available to the power
>> users. This is part of the business model that I'm thinking about...
>> basically... an eco-system (marketplace, app store) for composable
>> elements.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For complex tasks like this, tooling matters. It should be easy to
>>> compose/debug.
>>
>>
>> Yes. I've been thinking about "play this range of updates" or
>> "single-step
>> this range of updates" so you can see what would happen if you applied
>> certain transformations/accumulations.
>>
>>
>>> ESME has some similarities to Yahoo!Pipes- both reroute
>>> and transform pieces of text, but in a different context. However,
>>> Yahoo!Pipes makes it easy to assemble components graphically like Lego
>>> pieces, thereby ensuring that inappropriate pieces don't fit together.
>>
>>
>> Yep. Yahoo! Pipes is a great visual builder... but it also feels very
>> "push" rather than "reach into the ether and find what I'm looking for."
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Vassil
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Lift, the simply functional web framework http://liftweb.net
>> Beginning Scala http://www.apress.com/book/view/1430219890
>> Follow me: http://twitter.com/dpp
>> Git some: http://github.com/dpp
>
>