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Posted to dev@maven.apache.org by Brett Porter <br...@apache.org> on 2007/09/02 04:53:49 UTC
[poll] Need for plugin packs / mixins for plugins
Like the other poll, I'd like to hear from as many people as possible
their opinion this topic (even if you just want to say '0' so we know
where you stand).
[ ] (A) Having a way to include a set of plugins in one small POM
fragment would be a useful feature to have (if you have a use case
other than the already stated "standard plugins", please specify)
[ ] (B) Pasting a snippet in from the web site is sufficient
[ ] (C) No opinion
[ ] (D) Undecided
[ ] (E) Other (please specify)
Thanks,
Brett
--
Brett Porter - brett@apache.org
Blog: http://www.devzuz.org/blogs/bporter/
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Re: [poll] Need for plugin packs / mixins for plugins
Posted by Arnaud HERITIER <ah...@gmail.com>.
A - rnaud
On 03/09/07, Hervé BOUTEMY <he...@free.fr> wrote:
> B
> need to be able to override version of a plugin that is in a plugin pack, then
> solve conflicts between different plugin packs
> I think that what seems to be really cool in the first place will be more
> difficult to maintain that it seems
>
> Hervé
>
> Le dimanche 2 septembre 2007, Brett Porter a écrit :
> > Like the other poll, I'd like to hear from as many people as possible
> > their opinion this topic (even if you just want to say '0' so we know
> > where you stand).
> >
> > [ ] (A) Having a way to include a set of plugins in one small POM
> > fragment would be a useful feature to have (if you have a use case
> > other than the already stated "standard plugins", please specify)
> > [ ] (B) Pasting a snippet in from the web site is sufficient
> > [ ] (C) No opinion
> > [ ] (D) Undecided
> > [ ] (E) Other (please specify)
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Brett
> >
> > --
> > Brett Porter - brett@apache.org
> > Blog: http://www.devzuz.org/blogs/bporter/
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@maven.apache.org
>
>
>
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>
>
--
..........................................................
Arnaud HERITIER
..........................................................
OCTO Technology - aheritier AT octo DOT com
www.octo.com | blog.octo.com
..........................................................
ASF - aheritier AT apache DOT org
www.apache.org | maven.apache.org
...........................................................
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Re: [poll] Need for plugin packs / mixins for plugins
Posted by Hervé BOUTEMY <he...@free.fr>.
B
need to be able to override version of a plugin that is in a plugin pack, then
solve conflicts between different plugin packs
I think that what seems to be really cool in the first place will be more
difficult to maintain that it seems
Hervé
Le dimanche 2 septembre 2007, Brett Porter a écrit :
> Like the other poll, I'd like to hear from as many people as possible
> their opinion this topic (even if you just want to say '0' so we know
> where you stand).
>
> [ ] (A) Having a way to include a set of plugins in one small POM
> fragment would be a useful feature to have (if you have a use case
> other than the already stated "standard plugins", please specify)
> [ ] (B) Pasting a snippet in from the web site is sufficient
> [ ] (C) No opinion
> [ ] (D) Undecided
> [ ] (E) Other (please specify)
>
> Thanks,
> Brett
>
> --
> Brett Porter - brett@apache.org
> Blog: http://www.devzuz.org/blogs/bporter/
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@maven.apache.org
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Re: [poll] Need for plugin packs / mixins for plugins
Posted by Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@gmail.com>.
On 9/10/07, Grzegorz Kossakowski <gk...@apache.org> wrote:
> I'm not sure if we are talking about the same thing. I have in mind selecting some portion of
> included XML snippet by applying XPointer/XPath query on it.
> What do you mean by filtering here?
That we would want to change the included XML, depending on the POM
which includes it.
--
Look, that's why there's rules, understand? So that you think before
you break 'em.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Thief of Time)
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Re: [poll] Need for plugin packs / mixins for plugins
Posted by Jason van Zyl <ja...@maven.org>.
On 10 Sep 07, at 9:11 AM 10 Sep 07, Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
> On 9/10/07, Jason van Zyl <ja...@maven.org> wrote:
>
>> We definitely want to control how snippets are pulled in and used. I
>> wouldn't turn on general XML includes as we'll end up with the mess
>> we had in Maven 1.x.
>
> I must admit, that I can't follow you here. What to you mean by "the
> mess we had in Maven 1.x"? Note, that the situation is quite different
> here, because the inclusions result would still produce a POM with
> exactly the same structure than we have now.
>
> Do you believe, that implementing a different inclusion mechanism (for
> example "plugin pack") for every suitable situation,
I don't believe a plugin pack is useful at all, I'm all for using
standard POM elements and a simple import , but we might want to
limit where imports can be used for example.
> including more
> complex semantics, is better?
>
I didn't say, or imply that at all.
> Jochen
>
> --
> Look, that's why there's rules, understand? So that you think before
> you break 'em.
>
> -- (Terry Pratchett, Thief of Time)
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@maven.apache.org
>
Thanks,
Jason
----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
Founder and PMC Chair, Apache Maven
jason at sonatype dot com
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Re: [poll] Need for plugin packs / mixins for plugins
Posted by Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@gmail.com>.
On 9/10/07, Jason van Zyl <ja...@maven.org> wrote:
> We definitely want to control how snippets are pulled in and used. I
> wouldn't turn on general XML includes as we'll end up with the mess
> we had in Maven 1.x.
I must admit, that I can't follow you here. What to you mean by "the
mess we had in Maven 1.x"? Note, that the situation is quite different
here, because the inclusions result would still produce a POM with
exactly the same structure than we have now.
Do you believe, that implementing a different inclusion mechanism (for
example "plugin pack") for every suitable situation, including more
complex semantics, is better?
Jochen
--
Look, that's why there's rules, understand? So that you think before
you break 'em.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Thief of Time)
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Re: [poll] Need for plugin packs / mixins for plugins
Posted by Grzegorz Kossakowski <gk...@apache.org>.
Jason van Zyl pisze:
>
> On 10 Sep 07, at 8:51 AM 10 Sep 07, Grzegorz Kossakowski wrote:
>
>> Jochen Wiedmann pisze:
>>> On 9/10/07, Grzegorz Kossakowski <gk...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Your requirement is rather vague for me.
>>>
>>> Let's start with the most simple Filter: Extrapolation. And let's not
>>> forget, that Filtering is very underdeveloped, compared to Ants
>>> Filtering.
>>
>> I'm not sure if we are talking about the same thing. I have in mind
>> selecting some portion of
>> included XML snippet by applying XPointer/XPath query on it.
>> What do you mean by filtering here?
>>
>
> We definitely want to control how snippets are pulled in and used. I
> wouldn't turn on general XML includes as we'll end up with the mess we
> had in Maven 1.x.
Ok, if you have special requirements that XML includes do not satisfy it makes sense to invent
something new. I only hope it's not going to be "our own way of doing everything" that Maven users
will be forced to grasp.
--
Grzegorz Kossakowski
Committer and PMC Member of Apache Cocoon
http://reflectingonthevicissitudes.wordpress.com/
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Re: [poll] Need for plugin packs / mixins for plugins
Posted by Jason van Zyl <ja...@maven.org>.
On 10 Sep 07, at 8:51 AM 10 Sep 07, Grzegorz Kossakowski wrote:
> Jochen Wiedmann pisze:
>> On 9/10/07, Grzegorz Kossakowski <gk...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Your requirement is rather vague for me.
>>
>> Let's start with the most simple Filter: Extrapolation. And let's not
>> forget, that Filtering is very underdeveloped, compared to Ants
>> Filtering.
>
> I'm not sure if we are talking about the same thing. I have in mind
> selecting some portion of
> included XML snippet by applying XPointer/XPath query on it.
> What do you mean by filtering here?
>
We definitely want to control how snippets are pulled in and used. I
wouldn't turn on general XML includes as we'll end up with the mess
we had in Maven 1.x.
> --
> Grzegorz Kossakowski
> Committer and PMC Member of Apache Cocoon
> http://reflectingonthevicissitudes.wordpress.com/
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@maven.apache.org
>
Thanks,
Jason
----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
Founder and PMC Chair, Apache Maven
jason at sonatype dot com
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Re: [poll] Need for plugin packs / mixins for plugins
Posted by Grzegorz Kossakowski <gk...@apache.org>.
Jochen Wiedmann pisze:
> On 9/10/07, Grzegorz Kossakowski <gk...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Your requirement is rather vague for me.
>
> Let's start with the most simple Filter: Extrapolation. And let's not
> forget, that Filtering is very underdeveloped, compared to Ants
> Filtering.
I'm not sure if we are talking about the same thing. I have in mind selecting some portion of
included XML snippet by applying XPointer/XPath query on it.
What do you mean by filtering here?
--
Grzegorz Kossakowski
Committer and PMC Member of Apache Cocoon
http://reflectingonthevicissitudes.wordpress.com/
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Re: [poll] Need for plugin packs / mixins for plugins
Posted by Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@gmail.com>.
On 9/10/07, Grzegorz Kossakowski <gk...@apache.org> wrote:
> Your requirement is rather vague for me.
Let's start with the most simple Filter: Extrapolation. And let's not
forget, that Filtering is very underdeveloped, compared to Ants
Filtering.
--
Look, that's why there's rules, understand? So that you think before
you break 'em.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Thief of Time)
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Re: [poll] Need for plugin packs / mixins for plugins
Posted by Grzegorz Kossakowski <gk...@apache.org>.
Jochen Wiedmann pisze:
> Because of this:
>
>>> - Powerful: Could be enhanced to do filtering or stuff like that.
Your requirement is rather vague for me.
Do you mean filtering of included XML? If so, XInclude already supports it in very powerful way - by
using XPointer for this.
--
Grzegorz Kossakowski
Committer and PMC Member of Apache Cocoon
http://reflectingonthevicissitudes.wordpress.com/
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Re: [poll] Need for plugin packs / mixins for plugins
Posted by Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@gmail.com>.
On 9/10/07, Grzegorz Kossakowski <gk...@apache.org> wrote:
> Why not use existing solutions, then? I mean, XInclude standard that is supported by XML parsers and
> would not clutter Maven's code.
Because of this:
> > - Powerful: Could be enhanced to do filtering or stuff like that.
--
Look, that's why there's rules, understand? So that you think before
you break 'em.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Thief of Time)
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Re: [poll] Need for plugin packs / mixins for plugins
Posted by Grzegorz Kossakowski <gk...@apache.org>.
Jochen Wiedmann pisze:
>
> I'd basically like to use "snippets", or whatever you call them. However, if
> you restrict them to a "plugin pack", then I'd consider them as half baken.
> There are lots of other places where one could use them. For example, a user
> on dev@maven has recently proposed to use snippets within configuration.
>
> My recommendation would be use an XML preprocessor. Like this:
>
> <plugins>
> <include ... attributes to configure the include here ...>
> </plugins>
>
> The XML preprocessor would replace the include element with an XML snippet.
>
> Advantages:
>
> - Easy to implement: It is sufficient to modify the code that reads pom.xml,
> settings.xml,
> and/or profile.xml. (At least I would hope, that there is "the code" for
> each of these ... :-)
> - Powerful: Could be enhanced to do filtering or stuff like that.
Why not use existing solutions, then? I mean, XInclude standard that is supported by XML parsers and
would not clutter Maven's code.
--
Grzegorz Kossakowski
Committer and PMC Member of Apache Cocoon
http://reflectingonthevicissitudes.wordpress.com/
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Re: [poll] Need for plugin packs / mixins for plugins
Posted by Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@gmail.com>.
I'd basically like to use "snippets", or whatever you call them. However, if
you restrict them to a "plugin pack", then I'd consider them as half baken.
There are lots of other places where one could use them. For example, a user
on dev@maven has recently proposed to use snippets within configuration.
My recommendation would be use an XML preprocessor. Like this:
<plugins>
<include ... attributes to configure the include here ...>
</plugins>
The XML preprocessor would replace the include element with an XML snippet.
Advantages:
- Easy to implement: It is sufficient to modify the code that reads pom.xml,
settings.xml,
and/or profile.xml. (At least I would hope, that there is "the code" for
each of these ... :-)
- Powerful: Could be enhanced to do filtering or stuff like that.
--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/-poll--Need-for-plugin-packs---mixins-for-plugins-tf4366509s177.html#a12594066
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Re: [poll] Need for plugin packs / mixins for plugins
Posted by Lukas Theussl <lt...@apache.org>.
(C)
-Lukas
Brett Porter wrote:
> Like the other poll, I'd like to hear from as many people as possible
> their opinion this topic (even if you just want to say '0' so we know
> where you stand).
>
> [ ] (A) Having a way to include a set of plugins in one small POM
> fragment would be a useful feature to have (if you have a use case
> other than the already stated "standard plugins", please specify)
> [ ] (B) Pasting a snippet in from the web site is sufficient
> [ ] (C) No opinion
> [ ] (D) Undecided
> [ ] (E) Other (please specify)
>
> Thanks,
> Brett
>
> --
> Brett Porter - brett@apache.org
> Blog: http://www.devzuz.org/blogs/bporter/
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
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Re: [poll] Need for plugin packs / mixins for plugins
Posted by Stephen Connolly <st...@one-dash.com>.
A
Brett Porter wrote:
> Like the other poll, I'd like to hear from as many people as possible
> their opinion this topic (even if you just want to say '0' so we know
> where you stand).
>
> [ ] (A) Having a way to include a set of plugins in one small POM
> fragment would be a useful feature to have (if you have a use case
> other than the already stated "standard plugins", please specify)
> [ ] (B) Pasting a snippet in from the web site is sufficient
> [ ] (C) No opinion
> [ ] (D) Undecided
> [ ] (E) Other (please specify)
>
> Thanks,
> Brett
>
> --
> Brett Porter - brett@apache.org
> Blog: http://www.devzuz.org/blogs/bporter/
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@maven.apache.org
>
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Re: [poll] Need for plugin packs / mixins for plugins
Posted by John Casey <jd...@commonjava.org>.
On Sep 1, 2007, at 10:53 PM, Brett Porter wrote:
> [ X] (A) Having a way to include a set of plugins in one small POM
> fragment would be a useful feature to have (if you have a use case
> other than the already stated "standard plugins", please specify)
> [ ] (B) Pasting a snippet in from the web site is sufficient
> [ ] (C) No opinion
> [ ] (D) Undecided
> [ ] (E) Other (please specify)
It seems to me that standardizing and releasing these snippets will
be absolutely required in the very largest of environments, where
development is highly distributed geographically, etc. etc.
Also, in cases where it doesn't quite work to have only one plugin
version specified one time in a single org pom for all projects
everywhere for all time.
IMO, we should pursue standardization of any boilerplate code,
including standard additions to the POM...it doesn't preclude using
snippets, for one thing. Also, it provides a lot more flexibility to
do things like publish your own standardized (and maintained) suite
of plugins as yet another open source offering for others to use.
This will only serve to further stabilize Maven users' lives.
-john
---
John Casey
Committer and PMC Member, Apache Maven
mail: jdcasey at commonjava dot org
blog: http://www.ejlife.net/blogs/john
Re: [poll] Need for plugin packs / mixins for plugins
Posted by John Casey <jd...@commonjava.org>.
Don't forget that successive versions of some plugins may break
backward compatibility and other such bad practices. Locking everyone
in a large organization down to one version of such a plugin could be
very limiting, since these things have to be phased in.
Also, I don't think we can pretend that we have all of the
requirements or use cases. I've heard some pretty convoluted
approaches to managing this sort of data, and I don't have the
understanding of the environment to make a judgement about whether
they are doing things in an unnecessarily complex way, or even
whether their approach can be changed (political environment can have
a big impact here).
I do think that mixins like this would be beneficial, and I'm really
not at all convinced that it's a good idea to expand the scope of
such mixins outside of the build element...so, basically plugin
packs. To me, the term 'plugin pack' still needs some definition, so
I'm willing to say that it's a good idea to provide this type of
flexibility, and then help shape the concrete details a little bit to
get at something reasonable.
As far as many of the complexities involved in your questions at the
beginning of your reply, we can use tooling to help with that sort of
visibility too. Also, supporting plugin packs for the wider world
doesn't preclude having internal policies against their use in
organizations...maybe we'd do better to help people set rules about
how Maven is allowed to be used?
-john
On Sep 2, 2007, at 11:30 AM, Jason van Zyl wrote:
> What are the real requirements?
>
> They are:
>
> 1) An easy way to get a set of stable plugins that work together
> 2) To easily see what versions are contained in this set
> 3) To easily change or augment what is in this set
>
> The current mechanism + toolings works. I know what's going to
> happen with plugin packs. Someone is going to want to change a
> version of a plugin they are using and "How do I find out what
> versions of plugins am I using", "How do I override what version of
> a plugin I'm using if it's specified in a plugin pack?", "Does
> plugin management win if it's in a plugin pack?". "I found a bug in
> the way plugin packs are processed and I can't get a plugin version
> I need, is there a work around?". "How do I configure plugins that
> have been defined in the plugin pack". So people are going to have
> to end up redeclaring bits to get configuration and execution
> information locked down and then you end up with a terrible
> configuration management problem.
>
> A fully, and clear, literal way to define this is what is most
> practical. The questions below are also framed to bias the answers.
> For A, plugin packs are not the only solution. In very practical
> terms the total number of plugins is not that high. What people
> want to know is the stable set. The core processing required for
> the notion of a plugin pack will not be straight forward and it's
> not necessary and adds almost no value and I'm certain it will lead
> to greater complexity.
>
> Users want 1), 2), and 3). The current mechanism plus minimal
> tooling, or no tooling if people cut and paste (big deal) covers
> those requirements. Plugin packs cover 1) and then it becomes
> another nightmare to maintain. I am not in favor of plugin packs.
>
> On 1 Sep 07, at 7:53 PM 1 Sep 07, Brett Porter wrote:
>
>> Like the other poll, I'd like to hear from as many people as
>> possible their opinion this topic (even if you just want to say
>> '0' so we know where you stand).
>>
>> [ ] (A) Having a way to include a set of plugins in one small POM
>> fragment would be a useful feature to have (if you have a use case
>> other than the already stated "standard plugins", please specify)
>> [ ] (B) Pasting a snippet in from the web site is sufficient
>> [ ] (C) No opinion
>> [ ] (D) Undecided
>> [ ] (E) Other (please specify)
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Brett
>>
>> --
>> Brett Porter - brett@apache.org
>> Blog: http://www.devzuz.org/blogs/bporter/
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@maven.apache.org
>>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jason
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Jason van Zyl
> Founder and PMC Chair, Apache Maven
> jason at sonatype dot com
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
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>
---
John Casey
Committer and PMC Member, Apache Maven
mail: jdcasey at commonjava dot org
blog: http://www.ejlife.net/blogs/john
Re: [poll] Need for plugin packs / mixins for plugins
Posted by Jason Dillon <ja...@planet57.com>.
On Sep 2, 2007, at 8:30 AM, Jason van Zyl wrote:
> What are the real requirements?
>
> They are:
>
> 1) An easy way to get a set of stable plugins that work together
> 2) To easily see what versions are contained in this set
> 3) To easily change or augment what is in this set
>
> The current mechanism + toolings works. I know what's going to
> happen with plugin packs. Someone is going to want to change a
> version of a plugin they are using and "How do I find out what
> versions of plugins am I using", "How do I override what version of
> a plugin I'm using if it's specified in a plugin pack?", "Does
> plugin management win if it's in a plugin pack?". "I found a bug in
> the way plugin packs are processed and I can't get a plugin version
> I need, is there a work around?". "How do I configure plugins that
> have been defined in the plugin pack". So people are going to have
> to end up redeclaring bits to get configuration and execution
> information locked down and then you end up with a terrible
> configuration management problem.
Hehe... I think no matter what is implemented you are gonna find that
users are going to ask all of these questions and more I'm sure. ;-)
But of course, with a well defined contract and documentation its
easy enough to give 'em a URL and tell 'em to RTFM :-P
IMO, the goal of grouping stable plugins that work together into a
reusable chunk of pom.xml can be achieved by a generic pom import/
merge facility. With a few different rules on how to merge,
documented of course, then it should be possible to setup a "plugin-
pack" pom or a "common-profile" pom.
From what I gather the only tricky part is how the merge actually
happens, what takes precedence and so on... though I think that can
be simplified into a few modes of merging quite easily.
LIke for example, one mode could always prefer the local
configuration over anything in the included pom. Another could warn
(or error) if local pom and parent pom contain conflicting
configuration.
Maybe there are some uber-wrinkles that I'm missing, but this seems
rather simple... and can probably be easily inserted into (or close
to) the place where the parent pom is resolved and merged.
* * *
Anyways, I'd *REALY* like to see this feature added, and then some
general use-case/best-practices implemented and documented around the
feature to show uses how to create a plugin-pack or common-profile.
--jason
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Re: [poll] Need for plugin packs / mixins for plugins
Posted by Wayne Fay <wa...@gmail.com>.
> [ ] (A) Having a way to include a set of plugins in one small POM
> [ ] (B) Pasting a snippet in from the web site is sufficient
> [X] (D) Undecided
I personally don't mind pasting a snippet and I think this is a good
idea no matter what happens -- perhaps it could be included in the
release notes for each version. I can also see the use of mixins.
Especially if the Maven team is the one providing the mixin, and each
mixin is linked to a specific Maven release version as a set of
"working, integration-tested plugin versions for this release" which a
lot of people expect from the tool.
I am concerned though that providing mixins will send us further down
the path of moving more and more pieces out of the pom which is not
the right move IMO. If we add plugin+version in mixin v1, then people
will want plugin+version+configuration in mixin v2, and in a short
period of time we'll have re-invented <parent> and <pluginManagement>
in non-pom files which really makes no sense at all.
Instead of all this mixin stuff (and perhaps this isn't really
related), I think we need to "fix" the way we develop and release
plugins, and perhaps this means changing the way versions are resolved
etc (which we've discussed before -- should [1.1, ) include alphas and
betas etc -- I say no). I don't think we should have *any* plugin at
an "alpha" phase for more than 30 days. Same goes for "beta". Instead
we should create pools of unit and integration tests, verify that
things aren't broken when we add new functionality, and *release* new
versions of plugins. I'd be super happy if a SINGLE rfe or bug fix in
a plugin results in a new version (1.1.2 to 1.1.3). Instead we have
months and even years in between plugin releases, and people are using
alphas and betas and even adding snapshot repos to their poms etc,
resulting in less stable builds than we can and should be delivering.
Stability != no new releases.
Wayne
On 9/2/07, Jason van Zyl <ja...@maven.org> wrote:
> What are the real requirements?
>
> They are:
>
> 1) An easy way to get a set of stable plugins that work together
> 2) To easily see what versions are contained in this set
> 3) To easily change or augment what is in this set
>
> The current mechanism + toolings works. I know what's going to happen
> with plugin packs. Someone is going to want to change a version of a
> plugin they are using and "How do I find out what versions of plugins
> am I using", "How do I override what version of a plugin I'm using if
> it's specified in a plugin pack?", "Does plugin management win if
> it's in a plugin pack?". "I found a bug in the way plugin packs are
> processed and I can't get a plugin version I need, is there a work
> around?". "How do I configure plugins that have been defined in the
> plugin pack". So people are going to have to end up redeclaring bits
> to get configuration and execution information locked down and then
> you end up with a terrible configuration management problem.
>
> A fully, and clear, literal way to define this is what is most
> practical. The questions below are also framed to bias the answers.
> For A, plugin packs are not the only solution. In very practical
> terms the total number of plugins is not that high. What people want
> to know is the stable set. The core processing required for the
> notion of a plugin pack will not be straight forward and it's not
> necessary and adds almost no value and I'm certain it will lead to
> greater complexity.
>
> Users want 1), 2), and 3). The current mechanism plus minimal
> tooling, or no tooling if people cut and paste (big deal) covers
> those requirements. Plugin packs cover 1) and then it becomes another
> nightmare to maintain. I am not in favor of plugin packs.
>
> On 1 Sep 07, at 7:53 PM 1 Sep 07, Brett Porter wrote:
>
> > Like the other poll, I'd like to hear from as many people as
> > possible their opinion this topic (even if you just want to say '0'
> > so we know where you stand).
> >
> > [ ] (A) Having a way to include a set of plugins in one small POM
> > fragment would be a useful feature to have (if you have a use case
> > other than the already stated "standard plugins", please specify)
> > [ ] (B) Pasting a snippet in from the web site is sufficient
> > [ ] (C) No opinion
> > [ ] (D) Undecided
> > [ ] (E) Other (please specify)
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Brett
> >
> > --
> > Brett Porter - brett@apache.org
> > Blog: http://www.devzuz.org/blogs/bporter/
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@maven.apache.org
> >
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jason
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Jason van Zyl
> Founder and PMC Chair, Apache Maven
> jason at sonatype dot com
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
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Re: [poll] Need for plugin packs / mixins for plugins
Posted by Jason van Zyl <ja...@maven.org>.
What are the real requirements?
They are:
1) An easy way to get a set of stable plugins that work together
2) To easily see what versions are contained in this set
3) To easily change or augment what is in this set
The current mechanism + toolings works. I know what's going to happen
with plugin packs. Someone is going to want to change a version of a
plugin they are using and "How do I find out what versions of plugins
am I using", "How do I override what version of a plugin I'm using if
it's specified in a plugin pack?", "Does plugin management win if
it's in a plugin pack?". "I found a bug in the way plugin packs are
processed and I can't get a plugin version I need, is there a work
around?". "How do I configure plugins that have been defined in the
plugin pack". So people are going to have to end up redeclaring bits
to get configuration and execution information locked down and then
you end up with a terrible configuration management problem.
A fully, and clear, literal way to define this is what is most
practical. The questions below are also framed to bias the answers.
For A, plugin packs are not the only solution. In very practical
terms the total number of plugins is not that high. What people want
to know is the stable set. The core processing required for the
notion of a plugin pack will not be straight forward and it's not
necessary and adds almost no value and I'm certain it will lead to
greater complexity.
Users want 1), 2), and 3). The current mechanism plus minimal
tooling, or no tooling if people cut and paste (big deal) covers
those requirements. Plugin packs cover 1) and then it becomes another
nightmare to maintain. I am not in favor of plugin packs.
On 1 Sep 07, at 7:53 PM 1 Sep 07, Brett Porter wrote:
> Like the other poll, I'd like to hear from as many people as
> possible their opinion this topic (even if you just want to say '0'
> so we know where you stand).
>
> [ ] (A) Having a way to include a set of plugins in one small POM
> fragment would be a useful feature to have (if you have a use case
> other than the already stated "standard plugins", please specify)
> [ ] (B) Pasting a snippet in from the web site is sufficient
> [ ] (C) No opinion
> [ ] (D) Undecided
> [ ] (E) Other (please specify)
>
> Thanks,
> Brett
>
> --
> Brett Porter - brett@apache.org
> Blog: http://www.devzuz.org/blogs/bporter/
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@maven.apache.org
>
Thanks,
Jason
----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
Founder and PMC Chair, Apache Maven
jason at sonatype dot com
----------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [poll] Need for plugin packs / mixins for plugins
Posted by Brett Porter <br...@apache.org>.
On 04/09/2007, at 1:30 AM, Aaron Metzger wrote:
>
>> 2007/9/2, Brett Porter <br...@apache.org>:
>>> Like the other poll, I'd like to hear from as many people as
>>> possible
>>> their opinion this topic (even if you just want to say '0' so we
>>> know
>>> where you stand).
>>>
>>> [ ] (A) Having a way to include a set of plugins in one small POM
>>> fragment would be a useful feature to have (if you have a use case
>>> other than the already stated "standard plugins", please specify)
>>> [ ] (B) Pasting a snippet in from the web site is sufficient
>>> [ ] (C) No opinion
>>> [ ] (D) Undecided
>>> [ ] (E) Other (please specify)
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Brett
>>>
>
> As a manager of multiple large teams with diverse multiple
> projects, I agree 100% with all of Jason's comments on this topic.
Ummm... which option is that? :) There are two Jason's, and they are
at other ends of the discussion :)
- Brett
--
Brett Porter - brett@apache.org
Blog: http://www.devzuz.org/blogs/bporter/
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Re: [poll] Need for plugin packs / mixins for plugins
Posted by Aaron Metzger <am...@silkspeed.com>.
> 2007/9/2, Brett Porter <br...@apache.org>:
>> Like the other poll, I'd like to hear from as many people as possible
>> their opinion this topic (even if you just want to say '0' so we know
>> where you stand).
>>
>> [ ] (A) Having a way to include a set of plugins in one small POM
>> fragment would be a useful feature to have (if you have a use case
>> other than the already stated "standard plugins", please specify)
>> [ ] (B) Pasting a snippet in from the web site is sufficient
>> [ ] (C) No opinion
>> [ ] (D) Undecided
>> [ ] (E) Other (please specify)
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Brett
>>
As a manager of multiple large teams with diverse multiple projects, I
agree 100% with all of Jason's comments on this topic.
--
Aaron
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Re: [poll] Need for plugin packs / mixins for plugins
Posted by Raphaël Piéroni <ra...@gmail.com>.
A
Raphaël
2007/9/2, Brett Porter <br...@apache.org>:
> Like the other poll, I'd like to hear from as many people as possible
> their opinion this topic (even if you just want to say '0' so we know
> where you stand).
>
> [ ] (A) Having a way to include a set of plugins in one small POM
> fragment would be a useful feature to have (if you have a use case
> other than the already stated "standard plugins", please specify)
> [ ] (B) Pasting a snippet in from the web site is sufficient
> [ ] (C) No opinion
> [ ] (D) Undecided
> [ ] (E) Other (please specify)
>
> Thanks,
> Brett
>
> --
> Brett Porter - brett@apache.org
> Blog: http://www.devzuz.org/blogs/bporter/
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@maven.apache.org
>
>
Re: [poll] Need for plugin packs / mixins for plugins
Posted by Grzegorz Kossakowski <gk...@apache.org>.
Andrew Williams pisze:
> E)
> Specifying a a list of plugin versions in a pom snippet (better than
> plugin packs) is (as I see it) adding maintenance overhead that could
> become intrusive in some organisations.
> Why can we not just have a plugin (that maven suggests running if it
> seems missing version numbers) that updates your pom to specify the
> latest version of any plugins that are not currently stipulated.
> Running this on a parent pom in any organisation should eliminate the
> need for mixins or packs.
+1
--
Grzegorz Kossakowski
http://reflectingonthevicissitudes.wordpress.com/
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Re: [poll] Need for plugin packs / mixins for plugins
Posted by Andrew Williams <an...@handyande.co.uk>.
E)
Specifying a a list of plugin versions in a pom snippet (better than
plugin packs) is (as I see it) adding maintenance overhead that could
become intrusive in some organisations.
Why can we not just have a plugin (that maven suggests running if it
seems missing version numbers) that updates your pom to specify the
latest version of any plugins that are not currently stipulated.
Running this on a parent pom in any organisation should eliminate the
need for mixins or packs.
On 2 Sep 2007, at 03:53, Brett Porter wrote:
> Like the other poll, I'd like to hear from as many people as
> possible their opinion this topic (even if you just want to say '0'
> so we know where you stand).
>
> [ ] (A) Having a way to include a set of plugins in one small POM
> fragment would be a useful feature to have (if you have a use case
> other than the already stated "standard plugins", please specify)
> [ ] (B) Pasting a snippet in from the web site is sufficient
> [ ] (C) No opinion
> [ ] (D) Undecided
> [ ] (E) Other (please specify)
>
> Thanks,
> Brett
>
> --
> Brett Porter - brett@apache.org
> Blog: http://www.devzuz.org/blogs/bporter/
>
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RE: [poll] Need for plugin packs / mixins for plugins
Posted by Jörg Schaible <Jo...@Elsag-Solutions.com>.
Wendy Smoak wrote on Monday, September 03, 2007 7:41 PM:
> On 9/1/07, Brett Porter <br...@apache.org> wrote:
>> Like the other poll, I'd like to hear from as many people as possible
>> their opinion this topic (even if you just want to say '0' so we
>> know where you stand).
>>
>> [ ] (A) Having a way to include a set of plugins in one small POM
>> fragment would be a useful feature to have (if you have a use case
>> other than the already stated "standard plugins", please specify)
>> [ ] (B) Pasting a snippet in from the web site is sufficient [ ] (C)
>> No opinion [ ] (D) Undecided
>> [ ] (E) Other (please specify)
>
>
> B -- we're maintaining pluginManagement in a corporate parent pom and
> it's not that difficult.
+1
I'd like to have more rules or help instead, like
- enforce that no plugin is used, that is not declared in a pluginManagement section before
- list all known plugins and their current versions
- list all avalibale versions of a plugin
- ...
- Jörg
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Re: [poll] Need for plugin packs / mixins for plugins
Posted by Wendy Smoak <ws...@gmail.com>.
On 9/1/07, Brett Porter <br...@apache.org> wrote:
> Like the other poll, I'd like to hear from as many people as possible
> their opinion this topic (even if you just want to say '0' so we know
> where you stand).
>
> [ ] (A) Having a way to include a set of plugins in one small POM
> fragment would be a useful feature to have (if you have a use case
> other than the already stated "standard plugins", please specify)
> [ ] (B) Pasting a snippet in from the web site is sufficient
> [ ] (C) No opinion
> [ ] (D) Undecided
> [ ] (E) Other (please specify)
B -- we're maintaining pluginManagement in a corporate parent pom and
it's not that difficult.
--
Wendy
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RE: [poll] Need for plugin packs / mixins for plugins
Posted by LAMY Olivier <Ol...@accor.com>.
A
--
Olivier
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Brett Porter [mailto:brett@apache.org]
Envoyé : dimanche 2 septembre 2007 04:54
À : Maven Developers List
Objet : [poll] Need for plugin packs / mixins for plugins
Like the other poll, I'd like to hear from as many people as possible their opinion this topic (even if you just want to say '0' so we know where you stand).
[ ] (A) Having a way to include a set of plugins in one small POM fragment would be a useful feature to have (if you have a use case other than the already stated "standard plugins", please specify) [ ] (B) Pasting a snippet in from the web site is sufficient [ ] (C) No opinion [ ] (D) Undecided [ ] (E) Other (please specify)
Thanks,
Brett
--
Brett Porter - brett@apache.org
Blog: http://www.devzuz.org/blogs/bporter/
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