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Posted to modperl@perl.apache.org by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org> on 2001/04/27 17:44:49 UTC
an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial world
Well, I've talked to a few mod_perl guys over the last conference and by
email lately and we have have all agreed that we are quite sick of
generating forms and parsing them, no matter what cool toolkit and hype
words we are using to do that. So we all are looking at doing core
mod_perl, i.e. we want to develop *mod_perl* *itself* and tightly related
modules.
Since mod_perl is an open source, it's a tough quest. Basically what I
want is get some company that will benefit from me working on open source
project full time and pay me a salary. Of course it's probably hard to get
a full time open source position, so probably some compromising offer,
where we do some 50-75% of the time mod_perl development and the rest
doing something else, if it makes the company more happy.
Definitely I'm aware of the situation in the market. But you know what,
look at the history, at any recession times there were always those who
continued to prosper. Therefore I believe that some companies not even
slowed down, but have accelerated their growth and have enough cash to
invest into open source and make probably improve their image. Look for
example at Covalent, I don't know all the details, but this company seem
to stand strong on its legs. But Covalent has already Doug, so this is out
of question.
So if your company thinks it can directly or indirectly benefit from
having one or more mod_perl experts doing cool mod_perl development, let
us know. There are at least 3 people (including me) that want this job.
I'm sure that there are many more that will be interested.
I've mentioned in the subject that the request is unusual, so please
respond only if you think you can stand behind this offer and not promise
things that will never become true. I've bitten once on such an offer, and
will try not to do the same mistake a second time in a row.
Thanks a lot!
On the related note, does anybody know about the financial status of
Velocigen? How do they sell their products? We think to try to revive this
old idea where we create mod_perl company, that will sell mod_perl and
support. If Velocigen can do this with a closed source product, I believe
we can do even better, especially with the drooling mod_perl 2.0.
We have discussed this with I think 6 mod_perl guys about a year ago, but
since all of us were programmers, we didn't get anywhere. May be we can
come up with some nice business plan, and make a commercial mod_perl
branch, boost the awareness of the product, get companies to invest into
people developing it and make mod_perl a standard for webserver products.
I know that it's a rewishful thinking, but with the right people and right
companies I'm sure that everything is possible. I'm sure that you realize
the potential of mod_perl.
IMHO of course... I'm just a programmer, so if you ask about my business
plan, I tell: you find a good business shark and push it forward, we will
do the coding. Easy huh, but that's what we are good at -- coding, so we
better do that.
Anyway, fresh ideas are welcome
_____________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide
mailto:stas@stason.org http://apachetoday.com http://logilune.com/
http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial world
Posted by barries <ba...@slaysys.com>.
On Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 01:37:52PM +0800, Gunther Birznieks wrote:
> At 09:06 AM 4/28/01 -0400, barries wrote:
>
> >Not sure either, except that this would be more targeted towards
> >specific research projects, as opposed to the build a venue and they
> >will come SourceXchange model.
>
> I guess my understanding of SourceXChange is that it was also for research
> projects and additions to existing open source projects.
I meant that SourceXchange wasn't promoting a particular R&D effort,
they were trying to be a clearinghouse (not a bad thing, but a different
thing). Stas (&co.) has the advantage that advocacy is part of the
intent, so by promoting mod_perl, he raises interest in his own
availability, and by promoting his availability, he promotes mod_perl.
He doesn't need to get bogged down in structuring a market and
attracting business to a marketplace, he can focus on selling himself,
his cohorts, and mod_perl.
> I think what Stas may want to do is write up a list of things that he
> wants to do with mod_perl if he were given 6 months or a year of
> salary to do whatever he wanted.
*nod*
- Barrie
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the
commercial world
Posted by Gunther Birznieks <gu...@extropia.com>.
At 09:06 AM 4/28/01 -0400, barries wrote:
> > But then this gets into the Collabnet SourceXChange model which Collabnet
> > just shut down due to lack of capability of making money (I guess). So
> I am
> > not sure if this would bode well for this type of model on mod_perl.
>
>Not sure either, except that this would be more targeted towards
>specific research projects, as opposed to the build a venue and they
>will come SourceXchange model.
I guess my understanding of SourceXChange is that it was also for research
projects and additions to existing open source projects. So the idea is to
precisely bring together open source developers and people who want to give
grants for adding or creating specific open source projects.
Anyway, I am not saying it is impossible. Anyway, I think what Stas may
want to do is write up a list of things that he wants to do with mod_perl
if he were given 6 months or a year of salary to do whatever he wanted.
This would make such a request to have someone pay for his work to be
concrete and possibly then endear others to help in a more concrete way. It
is also quite possible that people do not realize what improvements should
be made to mod_perl (or they would be doing it) and so if Stas has a list
of ideas of what to do with mod_perl, then he may inadvertently spark ideas
in other people's minds as to what can be done and they would do it.
I guess off the top of my head, there are things that Doug has stated he
expects other people to write as soon as mod_perl 2.0 is released. So
perhaps that could be worked on in parallel with mod_perl 2.0 so that when
Apache 2.0 is released, mod_perl 2.0 can be released in a very
full-featured way.
Later,
Gunther
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial world
Posted by "Richard L. Goerwitz III" <ri...@goerwitz.com>.
barries wrote:
> > Anyway, this seems promising. Where I know we wouldn't pay money to fund an
> > entire year of Stas developing mod_perl solely, I certainly know that there
> > are probably features I would seriously consider sponsoring.
>
> Any others out there that might be interested, let's hear from you :-).
> My employer's on the rocks, so no easy money there....
I'm finding (while doing consulting work) that, if I already have
an "in" with a firm, I can usually leverage that to work in time
training the staff in how to use mod_perl indirectly, by teaching
them Embperl first.
Embperl ends up being the draw.
I find I can take average Perl programmers and get them up and run-
ning with Embperl, basically in two sessions. And once they figure
out what all they can do - and how quickly all their Perl scripts
can transfer - they buy right in.
The main hurdle turns out to be working a build of mod_perl into the
servers they're using. Often quite a number of developers are all
at work, and they don't all merit the kind of trust that mod_perl
requires. Mod_perl, though, is a pretty trusting module.
--
Richard Goerwitz richard@Goerwitz.COM
tel: 401 438 8978
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial world
Posted by barries <ba...@slaysys.com>.
On Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 12:16:18PM +0800, Gunther Birznieks wrote:
>
> If the person being sponsored by grants is a foreigner to the US, but
> wishes to be in the US
Agreed, but I don't think that's a roadblock, just a situation to be
dealt with. mod_perl infrastructure seems to be the kind of project
that can be done on a distributed basis. Geographic proximity helps, no
doubt, but that shouldn't stop work. We might need US staff, but I'm not
sure where the fingers tap on the keys matters as long as they're
talented fingers in the context of a project and community that has
already proven to work well in a distributed manner.
> Of course, the location of the person or person(s) being sponsored may make
> a big difference in being able to be sponsored.
Doug, would you sponser Stas a spot on your couch for, say, a 5 year
work commitment from him? ;-).
> Or would be actually apply a set of grants... I would like a company
> to sponsor this XYZ feature.
That's what I meant by "feature purchases" below, not that it was at all
clear :-/. Though I envisioned it more like talks might be opened with a
company and a mutually beneficial feature set might emerge from that.
For instance, I've been wondering about using fam/imon[1] to make it so
that Apache::Reload and templating and caching systems can have their
cake and eat it to: no need to repeatedly stat() the filesystem to know
if your source files have change or cached content has become outdated.
> But then this gets into the Collabnet SourceXChange model which Collabnet
> just shut down due to lack of capability of making money (I guess). So I am
> not sure if this would bode well for this type of model on mod_perl.
Not sure either, except that this would be more targeted towards
specific research projects, as opposed to the build a venue and they
will come SourceXchange model.
> Anyway, this seems promising. Where I know we wouldn't pay money to fund an
> entire year of Stas developing mod_perl solely, I certainly know that there
> are probably features I would seriously consider sponsoring.
Any others out there that might be interested, let's hear from you :-).
My employer's on the rocks, so no easy money there....
- Barrie
[1] http://oss.sgi.com/projects/fam/
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the
commercial world
Posted by Gunther Birznieks <gu...@extropia.com>.
I think this is a fantastic idea.
The only downside is that such a fund may be difficult to manage so one of
the companies could give management/people time to the grant process in
lieu of money I imagine. So if we take Stas' case, Stas would have to
market himself and get several companies to pay for him.
The are other issues. If the person being sponsored by grants is a
foreigner to the US, but wishes to be in the US to be closer to companies
doing similar things such as Covalent, relevant conferences etc, then that
foreigner needs to be sponsored by a company. Probably this would entail
someone giving money to a company which would be a vehicle to allow that
foreigner to in the country.
Of course, the location of the person or person(s) being sponsored may make
a big difference in being able to be sponsored. If we use Stas (again as an
example since he brought it up)... For example, for companies to sponsor
Stas to live comfortably in Singapore or Israel would cost much less than
to sponsor Stas to live comfortably in San Francisco located next to Doug
in Covalent.
Obviously it would be nicer for Stas to be closer to Doug when he works on
core mod_perl stuff.
Since you brought up the idea of sponsoring mod_perl development for 6
months, that also brings up an interesting point. Would someone like Stas
simply want a year of salary to do mod_perl experimentation. Or would be
actually apply a set of grants that he puts on his web site to say "I plan
to do XYZ with mod_perl" and it will take 3 months and therefore, I would
like a company to sponsor this XYZ feature.
That is a lot nicer than some vague commitment of one company to fund Stas
50% and another to fund him 25% and another to fund him 10% or what have
you. Then company's instead sponsor features to specifically be added to
mod_perl with clear deliverables. Then the sponsor can forever have their
name tied to a feature as part of the agreement and sponsorship.
But then this gets into the Collabnet SourceXChange model which Collabnet
just shut down due to lack of capability of making money (I guess). So I am
not sure if this would bode well for this type of model on mod_perl.
Anyway, this seems promising. Where I know we wouldn't pay money to fund an
entire year of Stas developing mod_perl solely, I certainly know that there
are probably features I would seriously consider sponsoring.
Later,
Gunther
At 10:41 PM 4/27/01 -0400, barries wrote:
>On Fri, Apr 27, 2001 at 11:44:49PM +0800, Stas Bekman wrote:
> >
> > Since mod_perl is an open source, it's a tough quest. Basically what I
> > want is get some company that will benefit from me working on open source
> > project full time and pay me a salary. Of course it's probably hard to get
> > a full time open source position, so probably some compromising offer,
> > where we do some 50-75% of the time mod_perl development and the rest
> > doing something else, if it makes the company more happy.
>
>Another possibility is to try to gather a bit of a consortium together.
>See if there are several interested companies that might fund half a
>developer for a year. If you get enough for 4 or 5 developers and some
>office support, you might be able to make a go of it.
>
>Existing Apache/mod_perl support companies might pitch some in, and
>some that want to make a contribution without committing to permanent
>staff or longer term could ante up commitments.
>
>The commitments could be in the form of guru grants, speaker honoraria,
>PR grants, feature purchases. Hmmmm, found a YAS (Yet Another Society)
>mod_perl wing? See if "the community" might pitch in to fund Stas and
>one or two others for 6 months? Not sure if you need to be slightly mad
>or from down under to pull that on off. Kevin Lenzo's a hell of a nice
>guy and probably would be happy to offer up some advice. In fact, I
>think I'll Cc him, and leave the rest of the message attached to
>backfill, if he's got time to read it...
>
>As you and others have mentioned here now and in the past, mod_perl
>needs PR and working apps (which are both good PR and good reasons for
>others to start using it as a means to an end: like the new Slash code,
>for instance).
>
>Such an organization could do (aside from the feature development listed
>above):
>
>- general advocacy: press releases, reference cards, publish
> articles and sell a qr/this (article|research) funded by
> (ActiveState|VMWare|Covalent|IBM S/390 Marketing Division|.*)/ credit
>
>- coporate outreach offer a free or cheap on-site intro to mod_perl
> technologies to any corporate division
>
>- offer a "take a mod_perl guru to lunch" program
>
>- emergency ssh/telnet/onsite problem SWAT services (that's a bit of a
> stretch). This could be done in partnership with existing firms like
> Covalent, or (so as not to compete with possible sponors) it could
> just advocate the availability of them. Heck, just getting "market
> survey" type articles published that research who offers what services
> might help promote these services.
>
>- in-depth training
>
>Anyway, this turned out to be longer than I intended, just some fuzzy
>thoughts after a long day...
> > Definitely I'm aware of the situation in the market. But you know what,
> > look at the history, at any recession times there were always those who
> > continued to prosper. Therefore I believe that some companies not even
> > slowed down, but have accelerated their growth and have enough cash to
> > invest into open source and make probably improve their image. Look for
> > example at Covalent, I don't know all the details, but this company seem
> > to stand strong on its legs. But Covalent has already Doug, so this is out
> > of question.
> >
> > So if your company thinks it can directly or indirectly benefit from
> > having one or more mod_perl experts doing cool mod_perl development, let
> > us know. There are at least 3 people (including me) that want this job.
> > I'm sure that there are many more that will be interested.
> >
> > I've mentioned in the subject that the request is unusual, so please
> > respond only if you think you can stand behind this offer and not promise
> > things that will never become true. I've bitten once on such an offer, and
> > will try not to do the same mistake a second time in a row.
> >
> > Thanks a lot!
> >
> > On the related note, does anybody know about the financial status of
> > Velocigen? How do they sell their products? We think to try to revive this
> > old idea where we create mod_perl company, that will sell mod_perl and
> > support. If Velocigen can do this with a closed source product, I believe
> > we can do even better, especially with the drooling mod_perl 2.0.
> >
> > We have discussed this with I think 6 mod_perl guys about a year ago, but
> > since all of us were programmers, we didn't get anywhere. May be we can
> > come up with some nice business plan, and make a commercial mod_perl
> > branch, boost the awareness of the product, get companies to invest into
> > people developing it and make mod_perl a standard for webserver products.
> > I know that it's a rewishful thinking, but with the right people and right
> > companies I'm sure that everything is possible. I'm sure that you realize
> > the potential of mod_perl.
> >
> > IMHO of course... I'm just a programmer, so if you ask about my business
> > plan, I tell: you find a good business shark and push it forward, we will
> > do the coding. Easy huh, but that's what we are good at -- coding, so we
> > better do that.
> >
> > Anyway, fresh ideas are welcome
> >
> > _____________________________________________________________________
> > Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker
> > http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide
> > mailto:stas@stason.org http://apachetoday.com http://logilune.com/
> > http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/
> >
> >
__________________________________________________
Gunther Birznieks (gunther.birznieks@extropia.com)
eXtropia - The Web Technology Company
http://www.extropia.com/
Re: brochureware perl.apache.org?!
Posted by Drew Taylor <dr...@drewtaylor.com>.
At 04:41 PM 4/28/01 -0400, Philip Mak wrote:
>On Sat, 28 Apr 2001, Drew Taylor wrote:
>
> > I agree 100%. If I might throw my $.02 in, IMHO a part of this marketing
> > should be a more "brochureware" perl.apache.org.
>
>If you guys do redesign perl.apache.org, please, PLEASE take usability
>into account. http://www.useit.com/ is a great resource about how to make
>a usable website.
Agreed! I assumed usability would be taken into account in any new design.
:-) Two jobs ago I worked for a web development shop whose primary focus
was on user-centered design, so I know all about keeping the end user in mind.
Drew Taylor
mailto:drew@drewtaylor.com
http://www.drewtaylor.com/
brochureware perl.apache.org?!
Posted by Philip Mak <pm...@aaanime.net>.
On Sat, 28 Apr 2001, Drew Taylor wrote:
> I agree 100%. If I might throw my $.02 in, IMHO a part of this marketing
> should be a more "brochureware" perl.apache.org.
If you guys do redesign perl.apache.org, please, PLEASE take usability
into account. http://www.useit.com/ is a great resource about how to make
a usable website.
I've seen too many corporate websites that load slow, and is hard to find
any *useful* information in them. A bad offender that I can think of off
the top of my head is http://www.advertising.com/.
-Philip Mak (pmak@aaanime.net)
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the
commercial world
Posted by Robin Berjon <ro...@knowscape.com>.
At 14:04 28/04/2001 -0400, Drew Taylor wrote:
>I remember seeing some proofs done by Robin Berjon (I'm sure I'm not
>spelling it right!) long ago that I really liked. But they were never used
>AFAIK. I also registered modperlnews.(org|com) a while back with the
>intention of doing something useful with them, but I have not yet done
>anything. I also have some time on my hands while I'm searching for a new
>job, so I am volunteering my time if it's needed or wanted. I'll bet that
>Template Toolkit (thanks Andy!) would work wonderfully for putting a new
>face on the site. If the powers that be are interested, I am available to
>help.
You got the spelling right, and if you hadn't I don't think it would have
been a big deal at all. In fact, my (geek) friends call me Berfon since
that is how my name appeared in the first Perl Poetry contest that I was
credited in ;-)
The proofs never made it to the perl.apache.org site for many reasons, one
of which being that that's when I changed continents again, another being
that there were other people working on it too, and there are probably many
other reasons at hand too. Anyway, the proof eventually got used for
take23.org which I'm very happy about (well, it was just a proof and there
are quite a few things I'd like to change about it, but that's another story).
I also helped with axkit.org. I don't think it's professional level as is,
but it's probably better than "programmer style" and until I or someone
else has the time to make it better I hope it does the job ok.
I'm not going to promise to do things I don't have the time to do, a few
years spent in the Open Source community have taught me (the hard way)
about that. However, now that my company has grown (and keeps growing
despite rumours of a slump -- modperl + xml definitely help) and that I
have internal resources other than myself I can offer to create a new proof.
The limits of what I can offer are a design proof + templates (in xslt). I
don't have enough people yet to take over the maintenance of the whole
site. If there's a way we can have some XML publishing on that server then
it would be done in little time (note that xml means pod too, thanks to
pod2xml). If someone can solve the publishing side of the issue, then I can
do the design/templating side.
_______________________________________________________________________
Robin Berjon <ro...@knowscape.com> -- CTO
k n o w s c a p e : // venture knowledge agency www.knowscape.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"What I like about deadlines is the lovely whooshing sound they make as
they rush past." --Douglas Adams
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the
commercial world
Posted by Drew Taylor <dr...@drewtaylor.com>.
At 10:41 PM 4/27/01 -0400, barries wrote:
>On Fri, Apr 27, 2001 at 11:44:49PM +0800, Stas Bekman wrote:
> >
> > Since mod_perl is an open source, it's a tough quest. Basically what I
> > want is get some company that will benefit from me working on open source
> > project full time and pay me a salary. Of course it's probably hard to get
> > a full time open source position, so probably some compromising offer,
> > where we do some 50-75% of the time mod_perl development and the rest
> > doing something else, if it makes the company more happy.
>
>As you and others have mentioned here now and in the past, mod_perl
>needs PR and working apps (which are both good PR and good reasons for
>others to start using it as a means to an end: like the new Slash code,
>for instance).
I agree 100%. If I might throw my $.02 in, IMHO a part of this marketing
should be a more "brochureware" perl.apache.org. The content there is top
notch and I can't say enough good things about it. The amount of
documentation is simply amazing and there are many commercial products that
aren't as well documented. However, the current site looks like it was
designed by a programmer. And I mean no offense, because that is also how
my personal site currently looks. :-)
I think that perl.apache.org should present a more "professional" face to
corporate people who are looking at using perl/mod_perl. For an example,
look at the various java.apache.org sites. They have navigation and are
split into multiple sections and pages. Someone took the time to section
off the various topics and put together graphics and navigation. I'm sure
the amount of data/documentation is the same between say Tomcat and
mod_perl, but I prefer the packaging of the java sites.
If we are to get more corporate interest in mod_perl, the community should
work to present the information about mod_perl in such a way that the
managers/business people who make the decisions can reason that mod_perl is
a technology they should use. We already know mod_perl is great, we just
have to make the rest of the world realize it. Marketing is as much about
appearance as capabilities. Just look at the marketing depts that dotcoms
put together to hype a product that didn't yet exist!
I remember seeing some proofs done by Robin Berjon (I'm sure I'm not
spelling it right!) long ago that I really liked. But they were never used
AFAIK. I also registered modperlnews.(org|com) a while back with the
intention of doing something useful with them, but I have not yet done
anything. I also have some time on my hands while I'm searching for a new
job, so I am volunteering my time if it's needed or wanted. I'll bet that
Template Toolkit (thanks Andy!) would work wonderfully for putting a new
face on the site. If the powers that be are interested, I am available to
help.
And if I'm off track, then tell me and I'll go back to lurking. :-)
>Such an organization could do (aside from the feature development listed
>above):
>
>- general advocacy: press releases, reference cards, publish
> articles and sell a qr/this (article|research) funded by
> (ActiveState|VMWare|Covalent|IBM S/390 Marketing Division|.*)/ credit
Drew Taylor
mailto:drew@drewtaylor.com
http://www.drewtaylor.com/
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial world
Posted by Mark Maunder <ma...@swiftcamel.com>.
Well, hopefully the mod_perl community isn't so small that etoys counted as a
sizable fraction :)
I'm ex etoys Europe and have set up a mod_perl webdev company in London
assembling high traffic web sites, so I guess you can count me in as one of them
freed up mod_perl people. I was tempted to email Stas, but there's no way I could
pay his salary. I'm sure alot of companies out there would kill to have your name
associated with them though.
Jim Winstead wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 27, 2001 at 10:01:39AM -0700, Michael Lazzaro wrote:
> > At 12:00 PM 4/27/01 -0400, JR Mayberry wrote:
> > >there will be more dreams jobs like you described.. simple fact is, I
> > >couldn't name more then 3 companies in my area who use it, and I never
> > >expect to do work with it again.
> >
> > ... on the other hand, even as recently as one year ago, it was almost
> > impossible for our company (in southern california) to find mod_perl
> > programmers. Our last few job searches, tho, we've been able to find a
> > *very* good supply of applicants with mod_perl experience... it's no longer
> > been an issue. (Most mod_perl applicants seem to have come by their
> > experience from working on college campuses, BTW... which is another
> > interesting -- and valuable -- change. Not the fact that schools use it,
> > but the _volume_ of applicants who are now learning it there.)
>
> well, i suspect a lot of those candidates actually surfaced as other
> idealab-backed companies either tanked or shifted direction. the
> death of etoys freed up a number of mod_perl-savvy developers. :)
>
> (in all seriousness, though, idealab and many of the companies it
> has spawned is a mod_perl-friendly place.)
>
> and my experience is that you don't need to hire mod_perl experts --
> specific skillsets are some distance down on the list of things i
> look at in hiring someone. given a good framework to develop in,
> and a good programmer who is willing to learn, mod_perl skills
> will bloom.
>
> but, outside of the linux companies and covalent, i don't know where
> one would look for a job just developing mod_perl itself.
>
> jim
--
Mark Maunder
mark@swiftcamel.com
http://swiftcamel.com/
Try not.
Do.
Or do not.
There is no try.
~yoda
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial world
Posted by Jim Winstead <ji...@trainedmonkey.com>.
On Fri, Apr 27, 2001 at 10:01:39AM -0700, Michael Lazzaro wrote:
> At 12:00 PM 4/27/01 -0400, JR Mayberry wrote:
> >there will be more dreams jobs like you described.. simple fact is, I
> >couldn't name more then 3 companies in my area who use it, and I never
> >expect to do work with it again.
>
> ... on the other hand, even as recently as one year ago, it was almost
> impossible for our company (in southern california) to find mod_perl
> programmers. Our last few job searches, tho, we've been able to find a
> *very* good supply of applicants with mod_perl experience... it's no longer
> been an issue. (Most mod_perl applicants seem to have come by their
> experience from working on college campuses, BTW... which is another
> interesting -- and valuable -- change. Not the fact that schools use it,
> but the _volume_ of applicants who are now learning it there.)
well, i suspect a lot of those candidates actually surfaced as other
idealab-backed companies either tanked or shifted direction. the
death of etoys freed up a number of mod_perl-savvy developers. :)
(in all seriousness, though, idealab and many of the companies it
has spawned is a mod_perl-friendly place.)
and my experience is that you don't need to hire mod_perl experts --
specific skillsets are some distance down on the list of things i
look at in hiring someone. given a good framework to develop in,
and a good programmer who is willing to learn, mod_perl skills
will bloom.
but, outside of the linux companies and covalent, i don't know where
one would look for a job just developing mod_perl itself.
jim
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the
commercial world
Posted by Michael Lazzaro <ml...@learning.net>.
At 12:00 PM 4/27/01 -0400, JR Mayberry wrote:
>there will be more dreams jobs like you described.. simple fact is, I
>couldn't name more then 3 companies in my area who use it, and I never
>expect to do work with it again.
... on the other hand, even as recently as one year ago, it was almost
impossible for our company (in southern california) to find mod_perl
programmers. Our last few job searches, tho, we've been able to find a
*very* good supply of applicants with mod_perl experience... it's no longer
been an issue. (Most mod_perl applicants seem to have come by their
experience from working on college campuses, BTW... which is another
interesting -- and valuable -- change. Not the fact that schools use it,
but the _volume_ of applicants who are now learning it there.)
So I don't know how exactly it's happened, but mod_perl "knowledge" seems
to have skyrocketed recently, and at least to my mind it's given mod_perl a
viability that it didn't have recently. A year ago, we were even talking
seriously about moving our development to Java, simply because we could
find a lot more Java programmers than Perl programmers, but that tide is
definitely turned... we're no longer even considering switching, we have no
trouble finding people, and I'm finding investors and corporate officers a
*lot* more willing to consider the development and use of open-source tools
in general as being a very valid and credible business decision. The use
of Apache and mod_perl has made me look very, very smart lately. ;-)
I think the key is going to be Perl 6. If it improves the areas they think
it will, and if Apache / mod_perl 2.x are themselves the improvements we
expect them to be, we may all be pleasantly surprised by a major growth in
usage. The market downturn has given people who use open source tools --
Perl, Apache, mySQL, postgreSQL, Linux, etc... a major credibility boost,
at least in my own circles -- I think we *might* be in for a pleasant
surprise in 1-2 years. :-/
MikeL
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial world
Posted by barries <ba...@slaysys.com>.
On Fri, Apr 27, 2001 at 11:44:49PM +0800, Stas Bekman wrote:
>
> Since mod_perl is an open source, it's a tough quest. Basically what I
> want is get some company that will benefit from me working on open source
> project full time and pay me a salary. Of course it's probably hard to get
> a full time open source position, so probably some compromising offer,
> where we do some 50-75% of the time mod_perl development and the rest
> doing something else, if it makes the company more happy.
Another possibility is to try to gather a bit of a consortium together.
See if there are several interested companies that might fund half a
developer for a year. If you get enough for 4 or 5 developers and some
office support, you might be able to make a go of it.
Existing Apache/mod_perl support companies might pitch some in, and
some that want to make a contribution without committing to permanent
staff or longer term could ante up commitments.
The commitments could be in the form of guru grants, speaker honoraria,
PR grants, feature purchases. Hmmmm, found a YAS (Yet Another Society)
mod_perl wing? See if "the community" might pitch in to fund Stas and
one or two others for 6 months? Not sure if you need to be slightly mad
or from down under to pull that on off. Kevin Lenzo's a hell of a nice
guy and probably would be happy to offer up some advice. In fact, I
think I'll Cc him, and leave the rest of the message attached to
backfill, if he's got time to read it...
As you and others have mentioned here now and in the past, mod_perl
needs PR and working apps (which are both good PR and good reasons for
others to start using it as a means to an end: like the new Slash code,
for instance).
Such an organization could do (aside from the feature development listed
above):
- general advocacy: press releases, reference cards, publish
articles and sell a qr/this (article|research) funded by
(ActiveState|VMWare|Covalent|IBM S/390 Marketing Division|.*)/ credit
- coporate outreach offer a free or cheap on-site intro to mod_perl
technologies to any corporate division
- offer a "take a mod_perl guru to lunch" program
- emergency ssh/telnet/onsite problem SWAT services (that's a bit of a
stretch). This could be done in partnership with existing firms like
Covalent, or (so as not to compete with possible sponors) it could
just advocate the availability of them. Heck, just getting "market
survey" type articles published that research who offers what services
might help promote these services.
- in-depth training
Anyway, this turned out to be longer than I intended, just some fuzzy
thoughts after a long day...
> Definitely I'm aware of the situation in the market. But you know what,
> look at the history, at any recession times there were always those who
> continued to prosper. Therefore I believe that some companies not even
> slowed down, but have accelerated their growth and have enough cash to
> invest into open source and make probably improve their image. Look for
> example at Covalent, I don't know all the details, but this company seem
> to stand strong on its legs. But Covalent has already Doug, so this is out
> of question.
>
> So if your company thinks it can directly or indirectly benefit from
> having one or more mod_perl experts doing cool mod_perl development, let
> us know. There are at least 3 people (including me) that want this job.
> I'm sure that there are many more that will be interested.
>
> I've mentioned in the subject that the request is unusual, so please
> respond only if you think you can stand behind this offer and not promise
> things that will never become true. I've bitten once on such an offer, and
> will try not to do the same mistake a second time in a row.
>
> Thanks a lot!
>
> On the related note, does anybody know about the financial status of
> Velocigen? How do they sell their products? We think to try to revive this
> old idea where we create mod_perl company, that will sell mod_perl and
> support. If Velocigen can do this with a closed source product, I believe
> we can do even better, especially with the drooling mod_perl 2.0.
>
> We have discussed this with I think 6 mod_perl guys about a year ago, but
> since all of us were programmers, we didn't get anywhere. May be we can
> come up with some nice business plan, and make a commercial mod_perl
> branch, boost the awareness of the product, get companies to invest into
> people developing it and make mod_perl a standard for webserver products.
> I know that it's a rewishful thinking, but with the right people and right
> companies I'm sure that everything is possible. I'm sure that you realize
> the potential of mod_perl.
>
> IMHO of course... I'm just a programmer, so if you ask about my business
> plan, I tell: you find a good business shark and push it forward, we will
> do the coding. Easy huh, but that's what we are good at -- coding, so we
> better do that.
>
> Anyway, fresh ideas are welcome
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
> Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker
> http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide
> mailto:stas@stason.org http://apachetoday.com http://logilune.com/
> http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/
>
>
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial
world
Posted by Doug MacEachern <do...@covalent.net>.
On Sat, 28 Apr 2001, Stas Bekman wrote:
> Oh, I didn't know that [Covalent sells mod_perl]. I guess that's because
> I'm not on the buyer side. Does it announce this fact? So why don't we
> have a link to Covalent from the perl.apache.org site? I think this is
> very essential for mod_perl to tell people that there are companies which
> sell mod_perl and provide a support! I think Covalent won't mind to have a
> such a link too.
yes, i've been meaning to put a link on perl.apache.org
> > not to say it couldn't be taken a few steps further, bundling a Perl
> > distribution and useful CPAN modules along with it. and of course,
> > Covalent is the only company that can offer such a product.
>
> You mean Covalent is the only company that can offer such a product now.
> It doesn't mean that some other company will provide a better packaging
> and sell it too, right?
whoops, that was supposed to say 'is _not_ the only'. i will say again
what i meant: and of course, Covalent is not the only company that can
offer such a product.
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial
world
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
On Fri, 27 Apr 2001, Doug MacEachern wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Apr 2001, Stas Bekman wrote:
>
> > Hey, we have a product -- mod_perl. All we need is to nicely pack it,
> > start selling it, support it and put the money back into mod_perl R&D.
>
> Covalent does this already. all of the "bundle" products include
> mod_perl, and anybody can buy support packages where support for mod_perl
> is covered.
Oh, I didn't know that [Covalent sells mod_perl]. I guess that's because
I'm not on the buyer side. Does it announce this fact? So why don't we
have a link to Covalent from the perl.apache.org site? I think this is
very essential for mod_perl to tell people that there are companies which
sell mod_perl and provide a support! I think Covalent won't mind to have a
such a link too.
> Covalent also puts a great deal of resources back into
> mod_perl "R&D" (me :)
This fact is well known and appreciated :) Thanks to Randy and other
Covalent folks!!!
> not to say it couldn't be taken a few steps further, bundling a Perl
> distribution and useful CPAN modules along with it. and of course,
> Covalent is the only company that can offer such a product.
You mean Covalent is the only company that can offer such a product now.
It doesn't mean that some other company will provide a better packaging
and sell it too, right?
IBM is selling their WebSphere, which is essentially pretty much a
slightly modified Apache server. I'm sure they can sell mod_perl too. I
think having someone like IBM backing up mod_perl will give mod_perl a
huge boost in product recognition. Think about IBM's PR capabilities.
So do other big companies. We just need to find a way to make them want to
do that. That's why I thought that may be some of the employees from those
companies are listening now, take notes, talk to their managers, get the
lead, hire more mod_perl programmers, and make the world a better place to
live.
_____________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide
mailto:stas@stason.org http://apachetoday.com http://logilune.com/
http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial
world
Posted by Doug MacEachern <do...@covalent.net>.
On Sat, 28 Apr 2001, Stas Bekman wrote:
> Hey, we have a product -- mod_perl. All we need is to nicely pack it,
> start selling it, support it and put the money back into mod_perl R&D.
Covalent does this already. all of the "bundle" products include
mod_perl, and anybody can buy support packages where support for mod_perl
is covered. Covalent also puts a great deal of resources back into
mod_perl "R&D" (me :) not to say it couldn't be taken a few steps
further, bundling a Perl distribution and useful CPAN modules along with
it. and of course, Covalent is the only company that can offer such a
product.
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial
world
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
> I think there are two paths... mod_perl needs more market-awareness... it
> needs a PR and marketing company.. then companies will start using it, then
> there will be more dreams jobs like you described.. simple fact is, I
> couldn't name more then 3 companies in my area who use it, and I never
> expect to do work with it again.
that's the long term path, we won't survive without a support from the
outside. It's hard to have a garage kind of a startup these days.
> Other path--- start your own company who has some product or web based
> service which uses mod_perl as their platform of choice.. market it, and
> sell it.. takes capital, but..nothing the collective efforts of an open
> source community couldn't do... gotta have that idea though..
Hey, we have a product -- mod_perl. All we need is to nicely pack it,
start selling it, support it and put the money back into mod_perl R&D.
Most of the big companies are still reluctant to accept the fact that
something can be available for free. They are ready to pay for it, as long
as you provide a support.
_____________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide
mailto:stas@stason.org http://apachetoday.com http://logilune.com/
http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial world
Posted by JR Mayberry <jr...@e-vend.net>.
I think there are two paths... mod_perl needs more market-awareness... it
needs a PR and marketing company.. then companies will start using it, then
there will be more dreams jobs like you described.. simple fact is, I
couldn't name more then 3 companies in my area who use it, and I never
expect to do work with it again.
Other path--- start your own company who has some product or web based
service which uses mod_perl as their platform of choice.. market it, and
sell it.. takes capital, but..nothing the collective efforts of an open
source community couldn't do... gotta have that idea though..
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stas Bekman" <st...@stason.org>
To: "mod_perl list" <mo...@apache.org>
Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 11:44 AM
Subject: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial world
>
> Well, I've talked to a few mod_perl guys over the last conference and by
> email lately and we have have all agreed that we are quite sick of
> generating forms and parsing them, no matter what cool toolkit and hype
> words we are using to do that. So we all are looking at doing core
> mod_perl, i.e. we want to develop *mod_perl* *itself* and tightly related
> modules.
>
> Since mod_perl is an open source, it's a tough quest. Basically what I
> want is get some company that will benefit from me working on open source
> project full time and pay me a salary. Of course it's probably hard to get
> a full time open source position, so probably some compromising offer,
> where we do some 50-75% of the time mod_perl development and the rest
> doing something else, if it makes the company more happy.
>
> Definitely I'm aware of the situation in the market. But you know what,
> look at the history, at any recession times there were always those who
> continued to prosper. Therefore I believe that some companies not even
> slowed down, but have accelerated their growth and have enough cash to
> invest into open source and make probably improve their image. Look for
> example at Covalent, I don't know all the details, but this company seem
> to stand strong on its legs. But Covalent has already Doug, so this is out
> of question.
>
> So if your company thinks it can directly or indirectly benefit from
> having one or more mod_perl experts doing cool mod_perl development, let
> us know. There are at least 3 people (including me) that want this job.
> I'm sure that there are many more that will be interested.
>
> I've mentioned in the subject that the request is unusual, so please
> respond only if you think you can stand behind this offer and not promise
> things that will never become true. I've bitten once on such an offer, and
> will try not to do the same mistake a second time in a row.
>
> Thanks a lot!
>
> On the related note, does anybody know about the financial status of
> Velocigen? How do they sell their products? We think to try to revive this
> old idea where we create mod_perl company, that will sell mod_perl and
> support. If Velocigen can do this with a closed source product, I believe
> we can do even better, especially with the drooling mod_perl 2.0.
>
> We have discussed this with I think 6 mod_perl guys about a year ago, but
> since all of us were programmers, we didn't get anywhere. May be we can
> come up with some nice business plan, and make a commercial mod_perl
> branch, boost the awareness of the product, get companies to invest into
> people developing it and make mod_perl a standard for webserver products.
> I know that it's a rewishful thinking, but with the right people and right
> companies I'm sure that everything is possible. I'm sure that you realize
> the potential of mod_perl.
>
> IMHO of course... I'm just a programmer, so if you ask about my business
> plan, I tell: you find a good business shark and push it forward, we will
> do the coding. Easy huh, but that's what we are good at -- coding, so we
> better do that.
>
> Anyway, fresh ideas are welcome
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
> Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker
> http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide
> mailto:stas@stason.org http://apachetoday.com http://logilune.com/
> http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/
>
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial
world
Posted by Matt Sergeant <ma...@sergeant.org>.
On Sun, 29 Apr 2001, Gunther Birznieks wrote:
> At 09:14 AM 4/28/01 +0100, Matt Sergeant wrote:
> >On Sat, 28 Apr 2001, Gunther Birznieks wrote:
> >
> > > As I think I mentioned, it's great that the people like you on this list
> > > have a passion for delivering cool software.
> > >
> >[snipped]
> > >
> > > People rarely look at toolkits like payment gateways and messaging servers
> > > unless there is an application that fits their needs that they can use
> > > which happens to use these backend components.
> >
> >Actually there's an exception to this rule. Look at Zope.
>
> But Zope has an application? -- content management. A template engine is
> not an application, but a content management tool built upon templates
> surely is?
>
> I thought you would recognize this as you are building something to allow
> this on AxKit?
I don't disagree with you, I just think it's a very fine line. Content
management is a kind of meta-application, because like the core mod_perl -
you still use it to build other applications. It just happens to have a
bit of a friendlier interface to it. And that's what it's really all
about - friendly interfaces.
Case in point. AxKit wasn't an immediate success (in mod_perl scale
terms) because it's a cool project, or because I spammed the list over and
over about it. It was an immediate success only after I changed the web
site from a drab and dreary look to the new design (even though everyone
hates the purple!). I know most developers find that hard to fathom, and
it still irks me a bit, but that's the reality of it.
> Of course, I guess you could consider AxKit an application because
> presumably it comes with scripts to allow aggregration of news content in
> RSS format? I consider this a really nice application.
>
> But it's also a bit difficult to tell that this is what AxKit does. You
> might consider separating AxKit the engine from AxKit the applications to
> allow people to find your site looking for applications (eg news, content
> management) so that they want to use AxKit. And then when they want to use
> AxKit, they will want to use mod_perl.
Thats the intention, and the RSS NewsMaker module (the news content
management system that Take23 uses) is separate, but I haven't really had
time to make it easy to use and install yet, typically. Interestingly
though there is very little interest in it, which is strange, but then I
don't have a link to it from anywhere.
--
<Matt/>
/|| ** Founder and CTO ** ** http://axkit.com/ **
//|| ** AxKit.com Ltd ** ** XML Application Serving **
// || ** http://axkit.org ** ** XSLT, XPathScript, XSP **
// \\| // ** mod_perl news and resources: http://take23.org **
\\//
//\\
// \\
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the
commercial world
Posted by Gunther Birznieks <gu...@extropia.com>.
At 09:14 AM 4/28/01 +0100, Matt Sergeant wrote:
>On Sat, 28 Apr 2001, Gunther Birznieks wrote:
>
> > As I think I mentioned, it's great that the people like you on this list
> > have a passion for delivering cool software.
> >
>[snipped]
> >
> > People rarely look at toolkits like payment gateways and messaging servers
> > unless there is an application that fits their needs that they can use
> > which happens to use these backend components.
>
>Actually there's an exception to this rule. Look at Zope.
But Zope has an application? -- content management. A template engine is
not an application, but a content management tool built upon templates
surely is?
I thought you would recognize this as you are building something to allow
this on AxKit?
Of course, I guess you could consider AxKit an application because
presumably it comes with scripts to allow aggregration of news content in
RSS format? I consider this a really nice application.
But it's also a bit difficult to tell that this is what AxKit does. You
might consider separating AxKit the engine from AxKit the applications to
allow people to find your site looking for applications (eg news, content
management) so that they want to use AxKit. And then when they want to use
AxKit, they will want to use mod_perl.
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial
world
Posted by Matt Sergeant <ma...@sergeant.org>.
On Sat, 28 Apr 2001, Bakki Kudva wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Apr 2001 09:14:10 +0100 (BST)
> Matt Sergeant <ma...@sergeant.org> wrote:
>
> Amen to that and there is Enhydra on the Java side. To get the
> functionality of these two frameworks I'd have to integrate many many CPAN
> modules, keep track of various versions, make sure each is active etc etc.
> A nice application framework like Enhydra or zope on mod_perl which is
> maintained perhaps by all the authors of individual modules would be a
> great start.
Actually there are probably more than one project of this kind, but we're
working on something like Zope (with more of a focus on content
management) at AxKit. You can see some information about it on
http://axkit.com/products/
--
<Matt/>
/|| ** Founder and CTO ** ** http://axkit.com/ **
//|| ** AxKit.com Ltd ** ** XML Application Serving **
// || ** http://axkit.org ** ** XSLT, XPathScript, XSP **
// \\| // ** mod_perl news and resources: http://take23.org **
\\//
//\\
// \\
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial world
Posted by Bakki Kudva <ba...@navaco.com>.
On Sun, 29 Apr 2001 13:52:05 +0800
Gunther Birznieks <gu...@extropia.com> wrote:
I completely agree with the assertion that applications sell the
underlying technology. History teaches us that to be indisputable.
Also while applications should be an overall part of the vision, it may
not have to be there right from the start. I have been peeking in at
Enhydra from time to time and I remeber in the beginning all they had was
the framework consisting of the multi-server, xmlc and perhaps DODS. Now i
see they have complete apps like Brock, jFAQ, and the fairly complete golf
store application all of which could be, as YABW (yet another buzz word)
says, "repurposed". Same is true of Zope where apps are emerging only now.
The tutorial is a terrific example of a zope app. Perhaps the roadmaps
followed by these two opensource camps will have great lessons for
mod_perl.
As the technology catches on the core-developers could form a company for
support, training etc as shown by Lutris for Enhydra and Digital Creations
for Zope. That seems like the validation corporations look for.
moral: lay a great foundation and they will build :)
-bakki
> I would like to restate that while I think these engines are cool and
> useful, that they are not the things that bring the masses to your
> platform. This was the point I was making. I am not naysaying projects
> like Enhydra, but just stated that they are not as directly useful for
> bringing the masses to the platform.
>
> While it is true that an "Enhydra" type of engine makes writing
> application
> easier, what you really still always need in order to gain a critical
> mass
> is something more concrete that the masses can hook onto.
>
> I am not talking about techies loving mod_perl or Enhydra or AxKit. But
> everyday webmasters and CIOs saying "XYZ platform has so many
> applications
> for it.... I can see them demoed, my tech staff can install them within
> a
> day...." so let's use it.
>
> There are just certain things that are harder to market than others.
> Applications make platforms easier to market because it shows off the
> power.
>
> I was not at the meeting, but I heard Stas convinced one of our clients
> to
> go with mod_perl by showing them a site he created called SinglesHeaven
> in
> CGI and then in mod_perl. "Look how fast it is and you can see it's a
> real
> application". Showing the same people benchmarks of hello world and
> template renderings generally do not have the same effect.
>
--
.-. | Bakki Kudva__________________Open Source EDMS______
oo| | Navaco ph: 814-833-2592
/`'\ | 420 Pasadena Drive fax: 603-947-5747
(\_;/) | Erie, PA 16505 http://www.navaco.com/
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the
commercial world
Posted by Gunther Birznieks <gu...@extropia.com>.
I would like to restate that while I think these engines are cool and
useful, that they are not the things that bring the masses to your
platform. This was the point I was making. I am not naysaying projects
like Enhydra, but just stated that they are not as directly useful for
bringing the masses to the platform.
While it is true that an "Enhydra" type of engine makes writing application
easier, what you really still always need in order to gain a critical mass
is something more concrete that the masses can hook onto.
I am not talking about techies loving mod_perl or Enhydra or AxKit. But
everyday webmasters and CIOs saying "XYZ platform has so many applications
for it.... I can see them demoed, my tech staff can install them within a
day...." so let's use it.
There are just certain things that are harder to market than others.
Applications make platforms easier to market because it shows off the power.
I was not at the meeting, but I heard Stas convinced one of our clients to
go with mod_perl by showing them a site he created called SinglesHeaven in
CGI and then in mod_perl. "Look how fast it is and you can see it's a real
application". Showing the same people benchmarks of hello world and
template renderings generally do not have the same effect.
At 11:06 AM 4/28/01 -0400, Bakki Kudva wrote:
>On Sat, 28 Apr 2001 09:14:10 +0100 (BST)
>Matt Sergeant <ma...@sergeant.org> wrote:
>
>Amen to that and there is Enhydra on the Java side. To get the
>functionality of these two frameworks I'd have to integrate many many CPAN
>modules, keep track of various versions, make sure each is active etc etc.
>A nice application framework like Enhydra or zope on mod_perl which is
>maintained perhaps by all the authors of individual modules would be a
>great start.
>bakki
>
> > Actually there's an exception to this rule. Look at Zope.
> >
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial world
Posted by Bakki Kudva <ba...@navaco.com>.
On Sat, 28 Apr 2001 09:14:10 +0100 (BST)
Matt Sergeant <ma...@sergeant.org> wrote:
Amen to that and there is Enhydra on the Java side. To get the
functionality of these two frameworks I'd have to integrate many many CPAN
modules, keep track of various versions, make sure each is active etc etc.
A nice application framework like Enhydra or zope on mod_perl which is
maintained perhaps by all the authors of individual modules would be a
great start.
bakki
> Actually there's an exception to this rule. Look at Zope.
>
--
.-. | Bakki Kudva__________________Open Source EDMS______
oo| | Navaco ph: 814-833-2592
/`'\ | 420 Pasadena Drive fax: 603-947-5747
(\_;/) | Erie, PA 16505 http://www.navaco.com/
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial
world
Posted by Cees Hek <ce...@sitesuite.net>.
On Sun, 29 Apr 2001, Adi Fairbank wrote:
> Thanks Gunther,
>
> We actually have discussed releasing our entire application open source.
> I personally would love to release it, being the chief architect, but
> there are other people involved who have put in a lot of work
> (directional/advisement/guidance... not coding) who would not benefit
> nearly as much as I would from it being open source.
>
> Also, as a company we have to evaluate what the best option is
> financially. We are currently a pretty low-budget operation, and if we
> release it what will prevent someone with deep pockets to come along, take
> it, and then dump tons of money into marketing it under a different brand
> name? I'm sure we could devise a license that would prevent such an
> occurrence, but it would have to be a pretty restrictive license, which
> would in itself limit the interest in the software.
I am in a similar situation with my company. Our main business is
building small to medium scale web sites for small businesses. Our
customers can build and maintain their websites and email accounts through
a web frontend (ie choosing a template, WYSIWYG editor, menu
builder, etc...). Everything we do is written in perl with a MySQL or
PostgreSQL backend, and I am in the process of mod_perl'ifying most of it.
Any new custom jobs that we do are also done in mod_perl. To simplify our
development, and to keep our development and design teams separate we have
developed a bunch of modules that simplify life in general (a template
engine, a DBI wrapper, a form handler, etc...).
We have talked about throwing our modules and apps out to the masses, but
like most other companies, we are faced with competition. A big part of
our marketing push is the easy-to-use tools for managing your website.
If we give these tools away to our compeditors, then we loose our
advantage in the marketplace.
Perhaps once our position is more stable in the market we will be able to
contribute back to the community with the work we have done...
--
Cees Hek
SiteSuite Corporation
cees@sitesuite.net
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial
world
Posted by Adi Fairbank <ad...@seneca.certsite.com>.
On Sat, 28 Apr 2001, Gunther Birznieks wrote:
[text cut]
>
> So for Adi -- I think the messaging server is great and I am sure it is
> cool and works well. And I am sure there are people on this list who will
> benefit. But unless your company makes the healthcare system itself open
> source, then it's another application that we don't have to make people
> interested in using mod_perl from the application side.
>
[text cut]
>
> The problem is that most company's that spend the time to write an app
> based on Java close-source that app. The same thing is true of the mod_perl
> world if things like Adi's healthcare system or SmartWorker's OpenDesk
> remain closed systems. I know that they consider it their business model to
> have to keep these closed source. But it also means less applications on
> top of mod_perl to entice the masses to it.
>
Thanks Gunther,
We actually have discussed releasing our entire application open source.
I personally would love to release it, being the chief architect, but
there are other people involved who have put in a lot of work
(directional/advisement/guidance... not coding) who would not benefit
nearly as much as I would from it being open source.
Also, as a company we have to evaluate what the best option is
financially. We are currently a pretty low-budget operation, and if we
release it what will prevent someone with deep pockets to come along, take
it, and then dump tons of money into marketing it under a different brand
name? I'm sure we could devise a license that would prevent such an
occurrence, but it would have to be a pretty restrictive license, which
would in itself limit the interest in the software.
I know releasing it open source would get plenty of interest from
developers, but would it generate interest from potential customers? We
concluded that it probably wouldn't make much difference since healthcare
is in general way behind the technology curve. Most people in healthcare
haven't even heard of Linux yet. (that may be a bit of an exaggeration,
but not too much)
In any case, we are still planning on releasing it eventually - to allow
it to grow beyond what our in-house development crew is capable of. We
really are just waiting to gain some significant market share and brand
recognition in order to make it more difficult for someone to take our
software and compete with us directly. We also need to rewrite parts of
it and document it. I personally would be embarassed if the open source
community saw certain parts of it. :-)
Any comments are much appreciated.
Cheers,
-Adi
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial
world
Posted by Matt Sergeant <ma...@sergeant.org>.
On Sat, 28 Apr 2001, Gunther Birznieks wrote:
> As I think I mentioned, it's great that the people like you on this list
> have a passion for delivering cool software.
>
> I may have missed the intent of these two posts (micropayment and messaging
> engines), but unfortunately, I don't really consider either of these items
> to be application-level items. I consider them infrastructure.
>
> eg it's nice that SmartWorker (as a toolkit) is open source, but opendesk
> is closed source. And it's the applications (ironically) in opendesk that
> make smart worker worth taking a look at. But it cripples (hope I don't
> upset anyone) SmartWorker's marketing to have opendesk closed source
> because people prefer downloading apps and then they learn about the
> framework it was developed in. Rarely is it the other way around.
>
> People rarely look at toolkits like payment gateways and messaging servers
> unless there is an application that fits their needs that they can use
> which happens to use these backend components.
Actually there's an exception to this rule. Look at Zope.
--
<Matt/>
/|| ** Founder and CTO ** ** http://axkit.com/ **
//|| ** AxKit.com Ltd ** ** XML Application Serving **
// || ** http://axkit.org ** ** XSLT, XPathScript, XSP **
// \\| // ** mod_perl news and resources: http://take23.org **
\\//
//\\
// \\
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the
commercial world
Posted by Gunther Birznieks <gu...@extropia.com>.
As I think I mentioned, it's great that the people like you on this list
have a passion for delivering cool software.
I may have missed the intent of these two posts (micropayment and messaging
engines), but unfortunately, I don't really consider either of these items
to be application-level items. I consider them infrastructure.
eg it's nice that SmartWorker (as a toolkit) is open source, but opendesk
is closed source. And it's the applications (ironically) in opendesk that
make smart worker worth taking a look at. But it cripples (hope I don't
upset anyone) SmartWorker's marketing to have opendesk closed source
because people prefer downloading apps and then they learn about the
framework it was developed in. Rarely is it the other way around.
People rarely look at toolkits like payment gateways and messaging servers
unless there is an application that fits their needs that they can use
which happens to use these backend components.
So for Adi -- I think the messaging server is great and I am sure it is
cool and works well. And I am sure there are people on this list who will
benefit. But unless your company makes the healthcare system itself open
source, then it's another application that we don't have to make people
interested in using mod_perl from the application side.
Likewise, for micropayments, -- great that there is a micropayment engine.
But unless there are applications to show off using the micropayment
engine, then it's not really helping to bridge the gap except to provide
yet another infrastructural tool.
Will these things come out? Maybe, yes, probably? But there's always been a
lot of infrastructural tools for Apache and mod_perl (eg Apache::Session is
probably one of the most popularly used next to Apache::DBI I suspect) and
yet these components haven't increased the amount of real applications for
people to download and run on mod_perl servers out of the box that they can
modify for their needs.
I don't mean to be disparaging because I hope there is a light at the end
of the tunnel, and I do think applications will eventually come out for
these components, but it's not a given. Sun spends a great deal of money
every year making lots of infrastructural stuff written in Java, but it
doesn't mean there are a lot of open source Java applications either.
The problem is that most company's that spend the time to write an app
based on Java close-source that app. The same thing is true of the mod_perl
world if things like Adi's healthcare system or SmartWorker's OpenDesk
remain closed systems. I know that they consider it their business model to
have to keep these closed source. But it also means less applications on
top of mod_perl to entice the masses to it.
I am sure it will get better, but the economic climate of companies going
under without revenue/profits does unfortunately mean that I am skeptical
that it will happen all at once in this year without a lot of concerted
effort from the mod_perl community to open source their applications that
run on top of mod_perl rather than keeping them all closed source.
At 10:21 PM 4/27/01 -0400, adi@seneca.certsite.com wrote:
>On Fri, 27 Apr 2001, Jeffrey W. Baker wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 28 Apr 2001, Gunther Birznieks wrote:
> >
> > > Well, you know how I feel. :) But the others don't so...
> > >
> > > I believe the most crucial and missing approach is to put resources into
> > > making ready-made applications that work on mod_perl rather than core
> > > mod_perl itself. This is also a problem on Linux, but that's another
> story.
> > > A quantity of applications for mod_perl or that demonstratively show that
> > > using mod_perl is a benefit (ie fast) is necessary (and I don't mean tech
> > > products like AxKit -- which are great but not what I am talking about)
> >
> > I will be demonstrating a canned micropayment system at O'Reilly in San
> > Diego this year. The reference implementation for the content provider
> > uses mod_perl. I think you are right that most people in non-tech
> > business want a solution that works immediately, rather than a toolbox.
> > The toolbox is already there with Apache, mod_perl, and DBI, now
> > application developers can just step up and deliver.
> >
>
>My company has developed an internal messaging application that is written
>as mod_perl handler / DBI / CGI. It is like the internal messaging
>systems you see at trading sites like etrade, but more featureful... it
>supports sending messages to other users on the system, attaching files,
>and SMTP connectivity. It was designed for use by healthcare parties
>who require a secure environment (we run it behind our SSL server).
>
>We are planning on releasing it as soon as we can fully separate it from
>the rest of our code. Mostly just wanted to let people know in case they
>were in need of something like this and were thinking of developing it
>themselves.
>
>Cheers,
>
>- Adi
__________________________________________________
Gunther Birznieks (gunther.birznieks@extropia.com)
eXtropia - The Web Technology Company
http://www.extropia.com/
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial
world
Posted by ad...@seneca.certsite.com.
On Fri, 27 Apr 2001, Jeffrey W. Baker wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, 28 Apr 2001, Gunther Birznieks wrote:
>
> > Well, you know how I feel. :) But the others don't so...
> >
> > I believe the most crucial and missing approach is to put resources into
> > making ready-made applications that work on mod_perl rather than core
> > mod_perl itself. This is also a problem on Linux, but that's another story.
> > A quantity of applications for mod_perl or that demonstratively show that
> > using mod_perl is a benefit (ie fast) is necessary (and I don't mean tech
> > products like AxKit -- which are great but not what I am talking about)
>
> I will be demonstrating a canned micropayment system at O'Reilly in San
> Diego this year. The reference implementation for the content provider
> uses mod_perl. I think you are right that most people in non-tech
> business want a solution that works immediately, rather than a toolbox.
> The toolbox is already there with Apache, mod_perl, and DBI, now
> application developers can just step up and deliver.
>
My company has developed an internal messaging application that is written
as mod_perl handler / DBI / CGI. It is like the internal messaging
systems you see at trading sites like etrade, but more featureful... it
supports sending messages to other users on the system, attaching files,
and SMTP connectivity. It was designed for use by healthcare parties
who require a secure environment (we run it behind our SSL server).
We are planning on releasing it as soon as we can fully separate it from
the rest of our code. Mostly just wanted to let people know in case they
were in need of something like this and were thinking of developing it
themselves.
Cheers,
- Adi
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial
world
Posted by "Jeffrey W. Baker" <jw...@acm.org>.
On Sat, 28 Apr 2001, Gunther Birznieks wrote:
> Well, you know how I feel. :) But the others don't so...
>
> I believe the most crucial and missing approach is to put resources into
> making ready-made applications that work on mod_perl rather than core
> mod_perl itself. This is also a problem on Linux, but that's another story.
> A quantity of applications for mod_perl or that demonstratively show that
> using mod_perl is a benefit (ie fast) is necessary (and I don't mean tech
> products like AxKit -- which are great but not what I am talking about)
I will be demonstrating a canned micropayment system at O'Reilly in San
Diego this year. The reference implementation for the content provider
uses mod_perl. I think you are right that most people in non-tech
business want a solution that works immediately, rather than a toolbox.
The toolbox is already there with Apache, mod_perl, and DBI, now
application developers can just step up and deliver.
-jwb
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the
commercial world
Posted by Gunther Birznieks <gu...@extropia.com>.
Well, you know how I feel. :) But the others don't so...
I believe the most crucial and missing approach is to put resources into
making ready-made applications that work on mod_perl rather than core
mod_perl itself. This is also a problem on Linux, but that's another story.
A quantity of applications for mod_perl or that demonstratively show that
using mod_perl is a benefit (ie fast) is necessary (and I don't mean tech
products like AxKit -- which are great but not what I am talking about)
There is very little out there in the various product categories that works
as mod_perl registry script. Probably equal in number to the amount of
public domain Java servlets! If you talk platforms, PHP has surpassed
mod_perl-capable applications.
Of course, as you say, you want to work on core mod_perl (not doing forms
applications... :)) so that is a different story. But to me, mod_perl is
exciting enough at the core level and the work, while it might be cool to
do more for v2, is already basically there.
But if you want to generate excitement about a platform we have to start at
a higher level -- show a suite of complete applications that can run ready
made on top of mod_perl to make it obviously enticing to use.
I am not talking about AxKit, HTML::Mason, etc. These are tools, not
applications or application suites. Programmers on this list and the people
who like mod_perl are similar IMHO to the people who like Linux. Constantly
interested in improving the core stuff.
I think that passion and interest is great. But the problem is bridging the
gap that brings the masses to a product and generates a lot more
excitement. In marketing, this is called 'Bridging the chasm" I think. Most
commercial products (not just open source!) follow a life cycle of which
one part of the life cycle is extremely difficult to bridge.
I am probably going to get the steps wrong because it's been a couple years
since I read this book. But the basic idea is this.
The first step is the early adopters (this is you Stas -- with running Perl
5.6 before it's stable, being so interesting in mod_perl 2.0 a year before
it's out).
The second stage consists of the technical few who aren't early adopters,
but when the early adopters say something is basically stable enough, the
technical few can try it, like it, and start using it. These are most of
the people who post regularly on the list (probably someone like me -- I
don't like adopting things too early -- I prefer to wait til it's stable --
but I think I like cool technology).
The third stage is those that are more pragmatic. Not necessarily the
technical elite, but that it is possible for an everyday person to start
using the product. This is the stage that mod_perl is at now. I think you
are seeing a lot more people who have used mod_perl and are not afraid of it.
Then there is popular acceptance. This is the chasm that must be crossed.
There are a couple ways that this chasm can be crossed. They all basically
entail marketing the product in such a way that the masses feel that are
indispensable yet easy to use the new product.
I believe having more full-applications delivered that work in a mod_perl
environment (at least Apache::Registry format) is one of the keys here. The
ideal is rather than individual apps, it could be suites of apps that
demonstrate working together (ie SmartWorker, eXtropia, any others?) and
capable of running under mod_perl for extra speed.
The suites are ideal (but not necessary) because it makes it easier for
users to pick up one app and then understand how the other apps work. Most
unfortunately, we know SmartWorker had been way-laid by being a startup
that needed to pull resources towards a business product (eg opendesk).
And I can't say that eXtropia has been that much better in terms of
delivery -- although we (Stas) have devoted a lot of time to making sure we
have yet another generation of application to deliver in the coming months.
So hopefully that will come about before PerlCon.
The way our company works though is that we have spurts where we
occasionally realize "Oh shit, we need to complete XYZ commercial project".
So the open source gets delayed again for a bit. Usually our open source
development and our software releases tends to following a few months of
open source coding and then a few months of not open source coding on the
Perl side.
This isn't consistent, which isn't nice and ideal, but at least we spend
the money and time on it when we can as a company.
Actually it's not a matter of money for us anymore (thankfully) as much as
that we may get a job that turns out to be big enough that we need more
people -- but we can't hire fast enough to do the job that we commit to
because the lead time for hiring someone is a minimum a couple weeks of
interviews and then that person usually giving a months notice at their
current job.
Luckily for us, for example, the project that is being worked on now isn't
proprietary and although a bit rushed, is paying for our Perl stuff to be
developed by Stas, Ho Ming Shun, and a few others.
At least til Stas finds a home in a company that can afford to pay for core
mod_perl development -- which Stas deserves.
I think that Stas passion for mod_perl and the work he has put into it
shows a commitment that if anyone (other than Doug obviously) should get
paid to work on core mod_perl and would enjoy doing it, then that would be
Stas. I cannot recommend anyone else more highly for this role after having
worked with him in person. :)
Unfortunately for my company, other companies pay us for web applications,
not for technologies. So I know our company cannot really afford such a
luxury.
We always want to spend money on making apps that can get reused and put
back out in the open source community and would love those apps to be
tested and work as well as possible under mod_perl. But our company itself
is also growing and so we can't pay for someone to develop mod_perl as
their job.
I think all the commitment we've had to R&D over the last year for a
company our size (I think it is reasonable to quantify about 10-20% Open
Source R&D expenditure in salary time over the last year at any given time)
is pretty good. Especially consider so many companies are dropping like
flies and our grows (perhaps this is indirectly because of R&D?).
But at 18 people, 20% R&D is still 2-4 people. Right now, it is probably at
the 10% level and 3 months ago at the 20% level (depends on the project load).
So if you consider that we have a Java line of products (which ironically
sells better in the Asian market) that we should and try to devote one
person to, and a Perl line that at minimum we could devote 1 person to (can
be split amongst developers of course) then it leaves little room for
developing core mod_perl in terms of our business model.
I definitely think a company like Covalent or perhaps a company such as
ActiveState would be the ones (as they sell technology not applications and
are larger than us so they can probably take a larger R&D hit) to take the
helm and pay for mod_perl to be developed. In lieu of that, I'd like to pay
for the same thing, but I don't think it will happen until we grow to 40
people -- business reality. :)
Another issue (and may be for many companies) is that my company knows how
to market and sell web applications. It's what we've been doing for over a
year and what we had been doing as a hobby for 7 before that.
Our sales and marketing and business development folks don't know how to
sell mod_perl and mod_perl support. It would be a severe change in
direction for us to take on a Covalent-role and would burn many resources
including graphics designer and marketing people creating a pitch, creating
the graphics around it (sales collatoral), and just having one core expert
(eg Stas) on board would make the technical backing for such a thing weak
as 24x7 support become impossible (just give Stas a pager! and oh, he can't
go on vacation -- obviously this would not a good situation)...
And as I've always said... I think applications are as (and in some cases
more -- eg crossing the chasm) important to mod_perl than mod_perl itself.
An opinion that may not be shared by all, but at least this is my opinion.
Whether right or wrong, I believe in this concept so much that I am willing
to pay a salary to people to develop open source applications that can work
on mod_perl and committed myself to spending a year not having a salary to
build a company that is now profitable and capable of paying people
(including myself) to do this now -- as that was and remains my dream. :)
At 11:44 PM 4/27/01 +0800, Stas Bekman wrote:
>Well, I've talked to a few mod_perl guys over the last conference and by
>email lately and we have have all agreed that we are quite sick of
>generating forms and parsing them, no matter what cool toolkit and hype
>words we are using to do that. So we all are looking at doing core
>mod_perl, i.e. we want to develop *mod_perl* *itself* and tightly related
>modules.
>
>Since mod_perl is an open source, it's a tough quest. Basically what I
>want is get some company that will benefit from me working on open source
>project full time and pay me a salary. Of course it's probably hard to get
>a full time open source position, so probably some compromising offer,
>where we do some 50-75% of the time mod_perl development and the rest
>doing something else, if it makes the company more happy.
>
>Definitely I'm aware of the situation in the market. But you know what,
>look at the history, at any recession times there were always those who
>continued to prosper. Therefore I believe that some companies not even
>slowed down, but have accelerated their growth and have enough cash to
>invest into open source and make probably improve their image. Look for
>example at Covalent, I don't know all the details, but this company seem
>to stand strong on its legs. But Covalent has already Doug, so this is out
>of question.
>
>So if your company thinks it can directly or indirectly benefit from
>having one or more mod_perl experts doing cool mod_perl development, let
>us know. There are at least 3 people (including me) that want this job.
>I'm sure that there are many more that will be interested.
>
>I've mentioned in the subject that the request is unusual, so please
>respond only if you think you can stand behind this offer and not promise
>things that will never become true. I've bitten once on such an offer, and
>will try not to do the same mistake a second time in a row.
>
>Thanks a lot!
>
>On the related note, does anybody know about the financial status of
>Velocigen? How do they sell their products? We think to try to revive this
>old idea where we create mod_perl company, that will sell mod_perl and
>support. If Velocigen can do this with a closed source product, I believe
>we can do even better, especially with the drooling mod_perl 2.0.
>
>We have discussed this with I think 6 mod_perl guys about a year ago, but
>since all of us were programmers, we didn't get anywhere. May be we can
>come up with some nice business plan, and make a commercial mod_perl
>branch, boost the awareness of the product, get companies to invest into
>people developing it and make mod_perl a standard for webserver products.
>I know that it's a rewishful thinking, but with the right people and right
>companies I'm sure that everything is possible. I'm sure that you realize
>the potential of mod_perl.
>
>IMHO of course... I'm just a programmer, so if you ask about my business
>plan, I tell: you find a good business shark and push it forward, we will
>do the coding. Easy huh, but that's what we are good at -- coding, so we
>better do that.
>
>Anyway, fresh ideas are welcome
>
>_____________________________________________________________________
>Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker
>http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide
>mailto:stas@stason.org http://apachetoday.com http://logilune.com/
>http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/