RE: XRI requirements - and overdefensiveness in OpenSourceLand...

[Arved Sandstrom <Ar...@chebucto.ns.ca>]

At 05:56 PM 7/16/00 +0200, Paulo Gaspar wrote:

>Considering the time I waste with bruised egos (including mine) I got
>a bit ashamed after reading this. I couldn't avoid thinking:
> - "Now, from the time you can spend with mailing lists, look at the
>   percent you (me) just waste with ego-and-turf-defending sh*t instead
>   of doing something really constructive with it. And, if part of it is
>   settling down other's egos and personal sensitivities, a lot is
>   because of your (mine) own ego-and-lame-sensitivities crap!"
>
>This is how I feel about it: a bit ashamed.

Let's not dismiss personal respect and professional courtesy. Maybe the 
reason I don't work at M$ is perhaps because if someone told me that what I 
just said "was stupid f****g BS", that there would be immediate physical
repercussions.

Including if the person was Steve Ballmer. :-)

The requirement, I think, is that we do not cultivate deliberate 
abrasiveness. What I like about Stefano is that he may be "in your face" but 
I don't think he does it on purpose. Plus I think he respects everyone.

>I also have an ego (big one) and also overreact and also get concerned
>about defending positions I believe just as I am doing now... and
>sometimes (maybe even now) I spend too much time defending those
>positions.

Sure, so do I. I get puffed up with myself from time to time. I think I've 
made some pretty decent contributions but sometimes I start thinking of 
myself as Don Knuth II. :-) So I need to be taken down a peg or two
occasionally.

>What is too much time defending a position? Is when nothing really
>positive can result for man kind except the fact that they will
>understand that you (the defender) are right and are a great guy!

Point well taken. I got concerned that I was becoming Mr. FOP, and put it 
out on the fop-dev mailing list that maybe it's time for a new release 
coordinator. Hence allowing me to concentrate on real stuff and not personal 
ego.

>The one thing I like most about Stefano is not the work I know from
>him - Cocoon. There is a lot of principles I believe to be wrong there
>(not in architecture/technical stuff, but in working model).
>
>The one thing I like most about Stefano is:
> - his enthusiasm, the way he tries to participate on all he can even if
>   only giving his possible 10 cents (in this case his opinion);
> - (and especially) the fact that he as an ego but deals with it, giving
>   priority to have the BEST solution working instead of his solution.
>   (Never worked with him, but at least he publicly defends this. Not
>   everybody dares to do so.)

Agreed. I still want to hear his viewpoint on getting into "voting" - he's
an influential Apache guy, and his "suggestion" carries weight in forums
outside Cocoon and Ant. I don't think it should. That being said, maybe I
have used my position outside FOP also.

>I think that it is a pity if we let "over defensiveness" get in the way
>of creativity, enthusiasm and participation... even if 10 cent
>participation.

Agreed.

>And I do not even think that his style is very Italian.
>Italian style is similar to very Portuguese very French or very
>British. It is a "I am THE MAN and I am always right" style.
>(By the way, I am Portuguese.)

OK, you might be right. :-) Still, you don't know Estonians. We are pretty 
formal. When I write my _sisters_ I use uppercase "Sina", which is like 
German "Sie" when talking to an individual. When I talk or write to 
strangers in Estonian, I am more formal still: it's all third person and 
Herr Doktor kind of stuff. :-)

You don't run across Estonians every day, so to get the right picture think 
of rum-running Finns with a strong exposure to Germans. :-)

Point being, we have not necessarily adequately captured culture and respect 
when we employ English. I'm thinking that the broad use of English, which 
exemplifies current American mores, is maybe always not so good. Maybe we 
should respect attempts to use native languages. I am personally capable of 
reading French and German, and responding in kind (sometimes brokenly), and 
of course I can do Estonian. :-) Portuguese is beyond me. :-)

>Paulo Gaspar
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Arved Sandstrom [mailto:Arved_37@chebucto.ns.ca]
>> Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2000 01:22
>> To: xerces-j-dev@xml.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: XRI requirements
>>
>>
>> Hi, Ted
>>
>> As I understand it, Stefano's vote doesn't count. He's prolific,
>> and takes
>> an interest in a bunch of stuff, but I agree with you: the rule
>> is that you
>> have "walked the walk and not just talked the talk" before you
>> get proposed
>> as a committer, _within_ the particular Apache project.
>>
>> There is no way that you would want me, for example, as a committer right
>> now, before I deliver some good material.
>>
>> I'd argue that we have been very good about doing this with FOP.
>> There isn't
>> a single person who is actually a committer who hasn't produced
>> some sound
>> contributions before being voted in. We have very solid people as
>> committers.
>>
>> As I understand it, outside people can't vote. I have personally accorded
>> weight to Stefano, but in my opinion he would not actually hold a
>> vote. This
>> has happened in FOP, also. I think we have always waited until there has
>> been a preponderance of FOP committers voting.
>>
>> This sounds like "bust on Stefano" day, and maybe the guy does
>> have a talent
>> of being too honest. :-) I admit to being irritated a few times
>> when he got
>> overly enthusiastic in fop-dev. This is possibly a clash between
>> my Estonian
>> style and his Italian one. :-) That being said, he has definitely
>> established himself as someone who "walks the walk" as well as
>> "talking the
>> talk". So I pay attention to him. :-)
>>
>> Arved
>>
>
>
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Senior Developer
e-plicity.com (www.e-plicity.com)
Halifax, Nova Scotia
"B2B Wireless in Canada's Ocean Playground"

RE: XRI requirements - and overdefensiveness in OpenSourceLand...

[Arved Sandstrom <Ar...@chebucto.ns.ca>]

At 07:21 AM 7/17/00 +0200, Paulo Gaspar wrote:
>
>> Point being, we have not necessarily adequately captured culture
>> and respect
>> when we employ English. I'm thinking that the broad use of English, which
>> exemplifies current American mores, is maybe always not so good. Maybe we
>> should respect attempts to use native languages. I am personally
>> capable of
>> reading French and German, and responding in kind (sometimes
>> brokenly), and
>> of course I can do Estonian. :-) Portuguese is beyond me. :-)
>
>Estonian is beyond me.
>=:o)

It should be beyond most reasonable people. We have 14 verb cases, and 
pronounciation that defies belief. :-)

We also don't need pronouns. We can compress sentences into one word. :-) 
And we have some nice umlauts: try pronouncing "o~un" properly, or "po"an", 
or "raukusno~drameelsus". :-)

Actually, Italian won a prize back in the '30's for being the world's most 
mellifluous language. Estonian was second.

>I think English is still the easier one. I have learned rudiments of German
>and Dutch but these are so difficult for a latin. But even being a latin,
>English was much easier to learn for me than French.
>
>As many Portuguese, I also understand Spanish and Italien. Still, nothing is
>so easy learning to speak without too much mistakes as English.
>(Although impossible to speak like a native.)

Don't even try understanding English speaken in rural areas. Can't comment 
on England, but if you listen to Newfoundland speakers, Maine speakers, or 
speakers from a number of different Nova Scotian areas, you can't understand 
what they are saying. _I_ have lived in Nova Scotia practically all my life, 
but I still can't understand some of these people. :-)

Your English is good. Despite that, I'm surprised to hear you say it's easy 
to use. Heavy media exposure, maybe?

Arved

Senior Developer
e-plicity.com (www.e-plicity.com)
Halifax, Nova Scotia
"B2B Wireless in Canada's Ocean Playground"

RE: XRI requirements - and overdefensiveness in OpenSourceLand...

[Paulo Gaspar <pa...@krankikom.de>]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Arved Sandstrom [mailto:Arved_37@chebucto.ns.ca]
> Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2000 06:32
>
> Let's not dismiss personal respect and professional courtesy. Maybe the
> reason I don't work at M$ is perhaps because if someone told me
> that what I
> just said "was stupid f****g BS", that there would be immediate physical
> repercussions.

I never heard that they talk that way about people. The sentence "that is
the stupidest f***king thing I ever heard!" was already mentioned in the
news several times as being one of BG favourites and generally used at MS.

Anyway, the idea is NOT to insult someone but too tell what you think
about something without wasting too much energy being polite.


I must say that I do not find Apache lists to be that bad. I guess I am
just traumatized from what I sometimes happens in other mailling lists.


> The requirement, I think, is that we do not cultivate deliberate
> abrasiveness. What I like about Stefano is that he may be "in
> your face" but I don't think he does it on purpose. Plus I think he
> respects everyone.

I like the "in your face" style. You know better what to expect when you
deal with such person.


> >And I do not even think that his style is very Italian.
> >Italian style is similar to very Portuguese very French or very
> >British. It is a "I am THE MAN and I am always right" style.
> >(By the way, I am Portuguese.)
>
> OK, you might be right. :-) Still, you don't know Estonians. We
> are pretty
> formal. When I write my _sisters_ I use uppercase "Sina", which is like
> German "Sie" when talking to an individual. When I talk or write to
> strangers in Estonian, I am more formal still: it's all third person and
> Herr Doktor kind of stuff. :-)
>
> You don't run across Estonians every day, so to get the right
> picture think
> of rum-running Finns with a strong exposure to Germans. :-)

Well... I am living in Germany now. But Germany is a big country and they
are not very formal around here. However, I have been in the North and...


Anyway, I think that human kind as an ego thing. We could joke about it
this way:
 - Latins, Brits, Americans and other extroverts believe in a loud
   campaign about how good they really are;
 - Germans (and probably other introverts) believe that being loud is not
   cool. Then, they develop a multitude of more subtile techniques to make
   the others find out how good they really are.
=;o)


> Point being, we have not necessarily adequately captured culture
> and respect
> when we employ English. I'm thinking that the broad use of English, which
> exemplifies current American mores, is maybe always not so good. Maybe we
> should respect attempts to use native languages. I am personally
> capable of
> reading French and German, and responding in kind (sometimes
> brokenly), and
> of course I can do Estonian. :-) Portuguese is beyond me. :-)

Estonian is beyond me.
=:o)

I think English is still the easier one. I have learned rudiments of German
and Dutch but these are so difficult for a latin. But even being a latin,
English was much easier to learn for me than French.

As many Portuguese, I also understand Spanish and Italien. Still, nothing is
so easy learning to speak without too much mistakes as English.
(Although impossible to speak like a native.)


Have fun,

Paulo Gaspar