You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com> on 2008/03/21 09:19:33 UTC
Statements from Qpid mentors would help me decide... [WAS Re: [VOTE] Apache Qpid Graduation as TLP]
On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 6:55 PM, Carl Trieloff <cc...@redhat.com> wrote:
>
> Qpid entered into the incubator November 2006, and has made releases, is
> in the
> process of closing down another minor release and well on the way to the
> next
> major release, added new committers, and cleaned up Karma prior to
> graduation
> vote.
>
> At this point the Apache Qpid community with support from its mentors
> feels that
> it is ready to graduate to an official top level project at Apache
i'm a little bit in two minds about this...
i have lurked on the list from time-to-time and have been impressed. i
think that TLP is the right destination and that QPID will be an good
addition one day.
but another voice asks: are they really ready today? has the IPMC
fully equipped them for the chanlleges ahead? do they really
understand how to mentor new independent developers into committers
and PMCers? is the diversity sufficient to have learnt how to have
disagreements on technical matters whilst retaining community spirit?
right or wrong, i'm not completely convinced right now...
- robert
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Statements from Qpid mentors would help me decide... [WAS Re: [VOTE] Apache Qpid Graduation as TLP]
Posted by Daniel Kulp <dk...@apache.org>.
Matthieu,
On Sunday 23 March 2008, Matthieu Riou wrote:
> Robert Godfrey doesn't seem to be working for either company. I also
> haven't found any affiliation for Rupert Ls Smith but you seem to be
> pretty good at finding them so maybe you (or somebody else) have an
> idea? Both have been committing regularly and recently.
Unfortunately, the link to the amqp.0-10.pdf:
https://jira.amqp.org/confluence/download/attachments/720900/amqp.0-10.pdf?version=1
seems to be down right now. The pdf lists both Godfrey and Smith as
JPMC.
The source for that section of the PDF, however, can be seen at:
https://svn.amqp.org/amqp/trunk/amqp_spec/preface.xml
Thus, from that, it looks like while working on/reviewing the AMQP spec,
they do represent JPMC. Since qpid is implementing the AMQP spec......
Now,that said, that list could be out of date. They might no longer have
any affiliation with JPMC. A couple of the IONA folks listed no longer
work for IONA so it's quite possible. I can only report what I see.
I'd LOVE to be proven wrong. That said, both are recent additions to
the list (they aren't in the 0-9 version, but are in the latest 0-10
version).
> There are also a few Iona developers and one WSO2 guy (sorry Paul, I'm
> not counting you ;) ) on the initial proposal, did they stop working
> on the project?
Pretty much. I know Vinoski was committing some stuff (mostly maven
build system stuff that has since been ripped out) but specifically
stopped when he left IONA. I also was helping with Maven related
questions/issues (I subscribe to qpid-dev) until the maven stuff was
removed. Not sure about the other IONA folks.
Dan
> Btw I'm not a great fan of insinuations that people voluntarily hide
> their affiliations. If you have any material evidence then provide
> them, otherwise I'd rather you keep those remarks for yourself.
>
> Cheers,
> Matthieu
>
> > IMO, if there is even a question of diversity at all, that warrants
> > a -1. From my experience, there isn't a compelling reason to speed
> > them out of the incubator if there is a question like this. Lets
> > make sure that they CAN address the diversity issue first. It looks
> > like they are working on it, which is great, but lets make sure they
> > will follow up on that and get it done. That's an important part of
> > the incubators job.
> >
> > Anyway, I'd vote -1, but my vote wouldn't be binding.
> >
> > Dan
> >
> >
> > [1] http://incubator.apache.org/projects/qpid.html
> > [2]
> >
> > https://jira.amqp.org/confluence/download/attachments/720900/amqp.0-
> >10.pdf?version=1 [3] http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/QpidProposal
> > [4] http://www.linkedin.com/in/nunofsantos
> > [5]
> > http://hany.sk/~hany/RPM/f-8-x86_64/qpidc-devel-0.2-5.fc7.i386.html<
> >http://hany.sk/%7Ehany/RPM/f-8-x86_64/qpidc-devel-0.2-5.fc7.i386.html
> >>
> >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 11:52 AM, Yoav Shapira
> > > <yo...@yoavshapira.com>
> >
> > wrote:
> > > > On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 4:19 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin
> > > >
> > > > <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 6:55 PM, Carl Trieloff
> >
> > <cc...@redhat.com> wrote:
> > > > > > At this point the Apache Qpid community with support from
> > > > > > its mentors feels that
> > > > > >
> > > > > > it is ready to graduate to an official top level project
> > > > > > at Apache
> > > > >
> > > > > but another voice asks: are they really ready today? has the
> > > > > IPMC
> > > > >
> > > > > fully equipped them for the chanlleges ahead? do they really
> > > > > understand how to mentor new independent developers into
> > > > > committers and PMCers? is the diversity sufficient to have
> > > > > learnt how to have disagreements on technical matters whilst
> > > > > retaining community spirit?
> > > >
> > > > It's a hard call for me as well. The technical bits are all
> > > > there, processes followed, paperwork filed, etc. More
> > > > importantly, the qpid community has been open, receptive to
> > > > feedback from everyone inside and outside their group, welcoming
> > > > to new opinions from new people, and respectful of ASF spirit,
> > > > not just its letter. There are disagreements and debates on
> > > > various technical matters without hurting the community. That's
> > > > why I support their graduation.
> > > >
> > > > It would have been really nice if one or two more committers
> > > > from new organizations had been added during the previous few
> > > > months, but that didn't happen. But I don't think the fact the
> > > > committers come from a small set of organizations necessarily
> > > > means there's no diversity. And I don't want to introduce
> > > > artificial requirements. The "are they really ready" question is
> > > > subjective by definition, and it's a good one, but I still vote
> > > > +1 ;)
> > > >
> > > > Yoav
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >---- - To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > > general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org For additional
> > > > commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
> > --
> > J. Daniel Kulp
> > Principal Engineer, IONA
> > dkulp@apache.org
> > http://www.dankulp.com/blog
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >- To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
--
J. Daniel Kulp
Principal Engineer, IONA
dkulp@apache.org
http://www.dankulp.com/blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Statements from Qpid mentors would help me decide... [WAS Re: [VOTE] Apache Qpid Graduation as TLP]
Posted by Daniel Kulp <dk...@apache.org>.
On Sunday 23 March 2008, Marnie McCormack wrote:
> All,
>
> If I have understood correctly the legal process which we've followed
> to join the Apache project, then I am 'legally independent' as are
> several of the other Qpid committers under discussion, as I have
> signed an ICLA and am personally responsible/liable for all of my
> contributions to Qpid.
>
> If this is not the spirit of the rule then I think it'd be better
> stated in different terms to make it clearer and this debate less
> subjective perhaps.
Directly from the graduation checklist: (which, BTW, Qpid has not filled
out. That's another issue, albiet a minor one.)
The legal definition of independent is long and boring, but basically it
means that there is no binding relationship between the individuals,
such as a shared employer, that is capable of overriding their free will
as individuals, directly or indirectly.
Dan
> For what its worth, Qpid has attracted several other independent
> committers since project inception. Somewhat unfortunately, after
> making significant contribution, they're all tied up with their 'day
> job' commitments at the moment (from the pre-graduation karma
> discussions on our list).
>
> Speaking of the Apache way, I don't much enjoy being singled out for
> personal discussion. The position of some of the committers on this
> project is, by necessity, what it is. It's not some Machiavellian
> attempt to subvert the process, truly.
>
> We're all trying to work together on a worthwhile project which we
> know people are able to get benefit from.
>
> Regards,
> Marnie
> Qpid Team
>
> On 3/23/08, Daniel Kulp <dk...@apache.org> wrote:
> > On Friday 21 March 2008, Paul Fremantle wrote:
> > > Yoav
> > >
> > > I have to say I think you have given a very good analysis. I think
> > > that QPid has come a huge way towards Apacheness. Diversity is not
> > > as great as it could be but meets the Incubator criteria.
> >
> > Huh? The graduation guide says "there are at least 3 legally
> > independent committers" and I don't see that with Qpid. EVERY
> > committer (except for the 2 mentors) on the qpid status page [1] can
> > easily be traced to be associated with either RedHat or JP Morgan
> > Chase. For example, if you check the credits page of the AMQP 0-10
> > spec [2] and look at the credits page (page xi), it associates
> > EVERYONE on the list to either RedHat or JPMC except for:
> > Jim Meyering
> > Marnie McCormack
> > Nuno Santos
> > And you can trace those three from:
> > Marnie McCormack - original qpid proposal [3]
> > Nuno Santos - Linked in profile [4]
> > Jim Meyering - Other redhad stuff [5]
> >
> > Thus, with 100% of the committers directly associated with just 2
> > companies, I DON'T feel that it meets the Incubator criteria of 3.
> > Yes, they've done a good job trying to hide their affiliations. But
> > the fact remains that the affiliations are there and can be found
> > with very little work. I tried to get the community to clarify the
> > above duing the discussions, but they didn't address it at all, or
> > at least to my satisfaction.
> >
> > IMO, if there is even a question of diversity at all, that warrants
> > a -1. From my experience, there isn't a compelling reason to speed
> > them out of the incubator if there is a question like this. Lets
> > make sure that they CAN address the diversity issue first. It looks
> > like they are working on it, which is great, but lets make sure they
> > will follow up on that and get it done. That's an important part of
> > the incubators job.
> >
> > Anyway, I'd vote -1, but my vote wouldn't be binding.
> >
> > Dan
> >
> >
> > [1] http://incubator.apache.org/projects/qpid.html
> > [2]
> >
> > https://jira.amqp.org/confluence/download/attachments/720900/amqp.0-
> >10.pdf?version=1 [3] http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/QpidProposal
> > [4] http://www.linkedin.com/in/nunofsantos
> > [5]
> > http://hany.sk/~hany/RPM/f-8-x86_64/qpidc-devel-0.2-5.fc7.i386.html
> >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 11:52 AM, Yoav Shapira
> > > <yo...@yoavshapira.com>
> >
> > wrote:
> > > > On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 4:19 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin
> > > >
> > > > <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 6:55 PM, Carl Trieloff
> >
> > <cc...@redhat.com> wrote:
> > > > > > At this point the Apache Qpid community with support from
> > > > > > its mentors feels that
> > > > > >
> > > > > > it is ready to graduate to an official top level project
> > > > > > at Apache
> > > > >
> > > > > but another voice asks: are they really ready today? has the
> > > > > IPMC
> > > > >
> > > > > fully equipped them for the chanlleges ahead? do they really
> > > > > understand how to mentor new independent developers into
> > > > > committers and PMCers? is the diversity sufficient to have
> > > > > learnt how to have disagreements on technical matters whilst
> > > > > retaining community spirit?
> > > >
> > > > It's a hard call for me as well. The technical bits are all
> > > > there, processes followed, paperwork filed, etc. More
> > > > importantly, the qpid community has been open, receptive to
> > > > feedback from everyone inside and outside their group, welcoming
> > > > to new opinions from new people, and respectful of ASF spirit,
> > > > not just its letter. There are disagreements and debates on
> > > > various technical matters without hurting the community. That's
> > > > why I support their graduation.
> > > >
> > > > It would have been really nice if one or two more committers
> > > > from new organizations had been added during the previous few
> > > > months, but that didn't happen. But I don't think the fact the
> > > > committers come from a small set of organizations necessarily
> > > > means there's no diversity. And I don't want to introduce
> > > > artificial requirements. The "are they really ready" question is
> > > > subjective by definition, and it's a good one, but I still vote
> > > > +1 ;)
> > > >
> > > > Yoav
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >---- - To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > > general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org For additional
> > > > commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
> > --
> > J. Daniel Kulp
> > Principal Engineer, IONA
> > dkulp@apache.org
> > http://www.dankulp.com/blog
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >- To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
--
J. Daniel Kulp
Principal Engineer, IONA
dkulp@apache.org
http://www.dankulp.com/blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
RE: Statements from Qpid mentors would help me decide... [WAS Re: [VOTE] Apache Qpid Graduation as TLP]
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> Btw I'm not a great fan of insinuations that people voluntarily hide their
> affiliations. If you have any material evidence then provide them,
otherwise
> I'd rather you keep those remarks for yourself.
+1
A matter of fact claim about what an affiliation appears to be is different
from a conjecture as to intent.
--- Noel
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Statements from Qpid mentors would help me decide... [WAS Re: [VOTE] Apache Qpid Graduation as TLP]
Posted by Matthieu Riou <ma...@offthelip.org>.
On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 7:56 AM, Daniel Kulp <dk...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Friday 21 March 2008, Paul Fremantle wrote:
> > Yoav
> >
> > I have to say I think you have given a very good analysis. I think
> > that QPid has come a huge way towards Apacheness. Diversity is not as
> > great as it could be but meets the Incubator criteria.
>
> Huh? The graduation guide says "there are at least 3 legally independent
> committers" and I don't see that with Qpid. EVERY committer (except
> for the 2 mentors) on the qpid status page [1] can easily be traced to
> be associated with either RedHat or JP Morgan Chase. For example, if
> you check the credits page of the AMQP 0-10 spec [2] and look at the
> credits page (page xi), it associates EVERYONE on the list to either
> RedHat or JPMC except for:
> Jim Meyering
> Marnie McCormack
> Nuno Santos
> And you can trace those three from:
> Marnie McCormack - original qpid proposal [3]
> Nuno Santos - Linked in profile [4]
> Jim Meyering - Other redhad stuff [5]
>
> Thus, with 100% of the committers directly associated with just 2
> companies, I DON'T feel that it meets the Incubator criteria of 3. Yes,
> they've done a good job trying to hide their affiliations. But the fact
> remains that the affiliations are there and can be found with very
> little work. I tried to get the community to clarify the above duing
> the discussions, but they didn't address it at all, or at least to my
> satisfaction.
>
Robert Godfrey doesn't seem to be working for either company. I also haven't
found any affiliation for Rupert Ls Smith but you seem to be pretty good at
finding them so maybe you (or somebody else) have an idea? Both have been
committing regularly and recently.
There are also a few Iona developers and one WSO2 guy (sorry Paul, I'm not
counting you ;) ) on the initial proposal, did they stop working on the
project?
Btw I'm not a great fan of insinuations that people voluntarily hide their
affiliations. If you have any material evidence then provide them, otherwise
I'd rather you keep those remarks for yourself.
Cheers,
Matthieu
> IMO, if there is even a question of diversity at all, that warrants a -1.
> From my experience, there isn't a compelling reason to speed them out of
> the incubator if there is a question like this. Lets make sure that
> they CAN address the diversity issue first. It looks like they are
> working on it, which is great, but lets make sure they will follow up on
> that and get it done. That's an important part of the incubators job.
>
> Anyway, I'd vote -1, but my vote wouldn't be binding.
>
> Dan
>
>
> [1] http://incubator.apache.org/projects/qpid.html
> [2]
>
> https://jira.amqp.org/confluence/download/attachments/720900/amqp.0-10.pdf?version=1
> [3] http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/QpidProposal
> [4] http://www.linkedin.com/in/nunofsantos
> [5] http://hany.sk/~hany/RPM/f-8-x86_64/qpidc-devel-0.2-5.fc7.i386.html<http://hany.sk/%7Ehany/RPM/f-8-x86_64/qpidc-devel-0.2-5.fc7.i386.html>
>
>
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 11:52 AM, Yoav Shapira <yo...@yoavshapira.com>
> wrote:
> > > On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 4:19 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin
> > >
> > > <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 6:55 PM, Carl Trieloff
> <cc...@redhat.com> wrote:
> > > > > At this point the Apache Qpid community with support from its
> > > > > mentors feels that
> > > > >
> > > > > it is ready to graduate to an official top level project at
> > > > > Apache
> > > >
> > > > but another voice asks: are they really ready today? has the IPMC
> > > >
> > > > fully equipped them for the chanlleges ahead? do they really
> > > > understand how to mentor new independent developers into
> > > > committers and PMCers? is the diversity sufficient to have learnt
> > > > how to have disagreements on technical matters whilst retaining
> > > > community spirit?
> > >
> > > It's a hard call for me as well. The technical bits are all there,
> > > processes followed, paperwork filed, etc. More importantly, the
> > > qpid community has been open, receptive to feedback from everyone
> > > inside and outside their group, welcoming to new opinions from new
> > > people, and respectful of ASF spirit, not just its letter. There
> > > are disagreements and debates on various technical matters without
> > > hurting the community. That's why I support their graduation.
> > >
> > > It would have been really nice if one or two more committers from
> > > new organizations had been added during the previous few months, but
> > > that didn't happen. But I don't think the fact the committers come
> > > from a small set of organizations necessarily means there's no
> > > diversity. And I don't want to introduce artificial requirements.
> > > The "are they really ready" question is subjective by definition,
> > > and it's a good one, but I still vote +1 ;)
> > >
> > > Yoav
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >- To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
>
> --
> J. Daniel Kulp
> Principal Engineer, IONA
> dkulp@apache.org
> http://www.dankulp.com/blog
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: Statements from Qpid mentors would help me decide... [WAS Re: [VOTE] Apache Qpid Graduation as TLP]
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 7:18 PM, Marnie McCormack
<ma...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> All,
>
> If I have understood correctly the legal process which we've followed to
> join the Apache project, then I am 'legally independent' as are several of
> the other Qpid committers under discussion, as I have signed an ICLA and am
> personally responsible/liable for all of my contributions to Qpid.
>
> If this is not the spirit of the rule then I think it'd be better stated in
> different terms to make it clearer and this debate less subjective perhaps.
most apache processes are democractic (in the greek sense): in the
end, it's a VOTE. apache relies on social reputational pressure and
public records to keep the electorate straight but there are
subjective elements which individuals balance in different ways. most
rules arise from consensus and record how we choose to bind ourselves.
it's sometimes a little hard to adjust to this. there's also a high
degree of chance involve which (if this were a contest) would be
unfair. the subjective personal criteria each IPMCer applies tends to
change with time as we try to evolve, improve and grow.
it's interesting to note that i have exactly the same (good) opinion
of qpid as stated by the mentors: i just need to mull over whether the
IPMC has done enough...
> For what its worth, Qpid has attracted several other independent committers
> since project inception. Somewhat unfortunately, after making significant
> contribution, they're all tied up with their 'day job' commitments at the
> moment (from the pre-graduation karma discussions on our list).
>
> Speaking of the Apache way, I don't much enjoy being singled out for
> personal discussion.
+1
IMO if necessary at all, any discussions of individuals should have
happened on private lists
but it is good to see qpid developers posting to this thread...
> The position of some of the committers on this project
> is, by necessity, what it is. It's not some Machiavellian attempt to subvert
> the process, truly.
:-)
- robert
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Statements from Qpid mentors would help me decide... [WAS Re: [VOTE] Apache Qpid Graduation as TLP]
Posted by Marnie McCormack <ma...@googlemail.com>.
All,
If I have understood correctly the legal process which we've followed to
join the Apache project, then I am 'legally independent' as are several of
the other Qpid committers under discussion, as I have signed an ICLA and am
personally responsible/liable for all of my contributions to Qpid.
If this is not the spirit of the rule then I think it'd be better stated in
different terms to make it clearer and this debate less subjective perhaps.
For what its worth, Qpid has attracted several other independent committers
since project inception. Somewhat unfortunately, after making significant
contribution, they're all tied up with their 'day job' commitments at the
moment (from the pre-graduation karma discussions on our list).
Speaking of the Apache way, I don't much enjoy being singled out for
personal discussion. The position of some of the committers on this project
is, by necessity, what it is. It's not some Machiavellian attempt to subvert
the process, truly.
We're all trying to work together on a worthwhile project which we know
people are able to get benefit from.
Regards,
Marnie
Qpid Team
On 3/23/08, Daniel Kulp <dk...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On Friday 21 March 2008, Paul Fremantle wrote:
> > Yoav
> >
> > I have to say I think you have given a very good analysis. I think
> > that QPid has come a huge way towards Apacheness. Diversity is not as
> > great as it could be but meets the Incubator criteria.
>
> Huh? The graduation guide says "there are at least 3 legally independent
> committers" and I don't see that with Qpid. EVERY committer (except
> for the 2 mentors) on the qpid status page [1] can easily be traced to
> be associated with either RedHat or JP Morgan Chase. For example, if
> you check the credits page of the AMQP 0-10 spec [2] and look at the
> credits page (page xi), it associates EVERYONE on the list to either
> RedHat or JPMC except for:
> Jim Meyering
> Marnie McCormack
> Nuno Santos
> And you can trace those three from:
> Marnie McCormack - original qpid proposal [3]
> Nuno Santos - Linked in profile [4]
> Jim Meyering - Other redhad stuff [5]
>
> Thus, with 100% of the committers directly associated with just 2
> companies, I DON'T feel that it meets the Incubator criteria of 3. Yes,
> they've done a good job trying to hide their affiliations. But the fact
> remains that the affiliations are there and can be found with very
> little work. I tried to get the community to clarify the above duing
> the discussions, but they didn't address it at all, or at least to my
> satisfaction.
>
> IMO, if there is even a question of diversity at all, that warrants a -1.
> From my experience, there isn't a compelling reason to speed them out of
> the incubator if there is a question like this. Lets make sure that
> they CAN address the diversity issue first. It looks like they are
> working on it, which is great, but lets make sure they will follow up on
> that and get it done. That's an important part of the incubators job.
>
> Anyway, I'd vote -1, but my vote wouldn't be binding.
>
> Dan
>
>
> [1] http://incubator.apache.org/projects/qpid.html
> [2]
>
> https://jira.amqp.org/confluence/download/attachments/720900/amqp.0-10.pdf?version=1
> [3] http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/QpidProposal
> [4] http://www.linkedin.com/in/nunofsantos
> [5] http://hany.sk/~hany/RPM/f-8-x86_64/qpidc-devel-0.2-5.fc7.i386.html
>
>
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 11:52 AM, Yoav Shapira <yo...@yoavshapira.com>
> wrote:
> > > On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 4:19 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin
> > >
> > > <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 6:55 PM, Carl Trieloff
> <cc...@redhat.com> wrote:
> > > > > At this point the Apache Qpid community with support from its
> > > > > mentors feels that
> > > > >
> > > > > it is ready to graduate to an official top level project at
> > > > > Apache
> > > >
> > > > but another voice asks: are they really ready today? has the IPMC
> > > >
> > > > fully equipped them for the chanlleges ahead? do they really
> > > > understand how to mentor new independent developers into
> > > > committers and PMCers? is the diversity sufficient to have learnt
> > > > how to have disagreements on technical matters whilst retaining
> > > > community spirit?
> > >
> > > It's a hard call for me as well. The technical bits are all there,
> > > processes followed, paperwork filed, etc. More importantly, the
> > > qpid community has been open, receptive to feedback from everyone
> > > inside and outside their group, welcoming to new opinions from new
> > > people, and respectful of ASF spirit, not just its letter. There
> > > are disagreements and debates on various technical matters without
> > > hurting the community. That's why I support their graduation.
> > >
> > > It would have been really nice if one or two more committers from
> > > new organizations had been added during the previous few months, but
> > > that didn't happen. But I don't think the fact the committers come
> > > from a small set of organizations necessarily means there's no
> > > diversity. And I don't want to introduce artificial requirements.
> > > The "are they really ready" question is subjective by definition,
> > > and it's a good one, but I still vote +1 ;)
> > >
> > > Yoav
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >- To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
>
> --
> J. Daniel Kulp
> Principal Engineer, IONA
> dkulp@apache.org
> http://www.dankulp.com/blog
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: Statements from Qpid mentors would help me decide... [WAS Re: [VOTE] Apache Qpid Graduation as TLP]
Posted by Daniel Kulp <dk...@apache.org>.
On Friday 21 March 2008, Paul Fremantle wrote:
> Yoav
>
> I have to say I think you have given a very good analysis. I think
> that QPid has come a huge way towards Apacheness. Diversity is not as
> great as it could be but meets the Incubator criteria.
Huh? The graduation guide says "there are at least 3 legally independent
committers" and I don't see that with Qpid. EVERY committer (except
for the 2 mentors) on the qpid status page [1] can easily be traced to
be associated with either RedHat or JP Morgan Chase. For example, if
you check the credits page of the AMQP 0-10 spec [2] and look at the
credits page (page xi), it associates EVERYONE on the list to either
RedHat or JPMC except for:
Jim Meyering
Marnie McCormack
Nuno Santos
And you can trace those three from:
Marnie McCormack - original qpid proposal [3]
Nuno Santos - Linked in profile [4]
Jim Meyering - Other redhad stuff [5]
Thus, with 100% of the committers directly associated with just 2
companies, I DON'T feel that it meets the Incubator criteria of 3. Yes,
they've done a good job trying to hide their affiliations. But the fact
remains that the affiliations are there and can be found with very
little work. I tried to get the community to clarify the above duing
the discussions, but they didn't address it at all, or at least to my
satisfaction.
IMO, if there is even a question of diversity at all, that warrants a -1.
From my experience, there isn't a compelling reason to speed them out of
the incubator if there is a question like this. Lets make sure that
they CAN address the diversity issue first. It looks like they are
working on it, which is great, but lets make sure they will follow up on
that and get it done. That's an important part of the incubators job.
Anyway, I'd vote -1, but my vote wouldn't be binding.
Dan
[1] http://incubator.apache.org/projects/qpid.html
[2]
https://jira.amqp.org/confluence/download/attachments/720900/amqp.0-10.pdf?version=1
[3] http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/QpidProposal
[4] http://www.linkedin.com/in/nunofsantos
[5] http://hany.sk/~hany/RPM/f-8-x86_64/qpidc-devel-0.2-5.fc7.i386.html
>
> Paul
>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 11:52 AM, Yoav Shapira <yo...@yoavshapira.com>
wrote:
> > On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 4:19 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin
> >
> > <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 6:55 PM, Carl Trieloff
<cc...@redhat.com> wrote:
> > > > At this point the Apache Qpid community with support from its
> > > > mentors feels that
> > > >
> > > > it is ready to graduate to an official top level project at
> > > > Apache
> > >
> > > but another voice asks: are they really ready today? has the IPMC
> > >
> > > fully equipped them for the chanlleges ahead? do they really
> > > understand how to mentor new independent developers into
> > > committers and PMCers? is the diversity sufficient to have learnt
> > > how to have disagreements on technical matters whilst retaining
> > > community spirit?
> >
> > It's a hard call for me as well. The technical bits are all there,
> > processes followed, paperwork filed, etc. More importantly, the
> > qpid community has been open, receptive to feedback from everyone
> > inside and outside their group, welcoming to new opinions from new
> > people, and respectful of ASF spirit, not just its letter. There
> > are disagreements and debates on various technical matters without
> > hurting the community. That's why I support their graduation.
> >
> > It would have been really nice if one or two more committers from
> > new organizations had been added during the previous few months, but
> > that didn't happen. But I don't think the fact the committers come
> > from a small set of organizations necessarily means there's no
> > diversity. And I don't want to introduce artificial requirements.
> > The "are they really ready" question is subjective by definition,
> > and it's a good one, but I still vote +1 ;)
> >
> > Yoav
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >- To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
--
J. Daniel Kulp
Principal Engineer, IONA
dkulp@apache.org
http://www.dankulp.com/blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Statements from Qpid mentors would help me decide... [WAS Re: [VOTE] Apache Qpid Graduation as TLP]
Posted by Paul Fremantle <pz...@gmail.com>.
Yoav
I have to say I think you have given a very good analysis. I think
that QPid has come a huge way towards Apacheness. Diversity is not as
great as it could be but meets the Incubator criteria. I support the
QPid graduation because I think that QPid is doing the right things in
the right way, and I have offered to join the PPMC to continue
offering advice in the future.
Paul
On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 11:52 AM, Yoav Shapira <yo...@yoavshapira.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 4:19 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin
> <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 6:55 PM, Carl Trieloff <cc...@redhat.com> wrote:
>
> > > At this point the Apache Qpid community with support from its mentors feels that
> > > it is ready to graduate to an official top level project at Apache
> >
>
> > but another voice asks: are they really ready today? has the IPMC
> > fully equipped them for the chanlleges ahead? do they really
> > understand how to mentor new independent developers into committers
> > and PMCers? is the diversity sufficient to have learnt how to have
> > disagreements on technical matters whilst retaining community spirit?
>
> It's a hard call for me as well. The technical bits are all there,
> processes followed, paperwork filed, etc. More importantly, the qpid
> community has been open, receptive to feedback from everyone inside
> and outside their group, welcoming to new opinions from new people,
> and respectful of ASF spirit, not just its letter. There are
> disagreements and debates on various technical matters without hurting
> the community. That's why I support their graduation.
>
> It would have been really nice if one or two more committers from new
> organizations had been added during the previous few months, but that
> didn't happen. But I don't think the fact the committers come from a
> small set of organizations necessarily means there's no diversity.
> And I don't want to introduce artificial requirements. The "are they
> really ready" question is subjective by definition, and it's a good
> one, but I still vote +1 ;)
>
> Yoav
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
--
Paul Fremantle
Co-Founder and VP of Technical Sales, WSO2
Apache Synapse PMC Chair
OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair
blog: http://pzf.fremantle.org
paul@wso2.com
"Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Statements from Qpid mentors would help me decide... [WAS Re:
[VOTE] Apache Qpid Graduation as TLP]
Posted by Carl Trieloff <cc...@redhat.com>.
I am not going to argue this either way, as this is mostly subjective. I
will point out that Qpid does have a steady stream of people that are
not associated with any of the existing committiers including some new
folks starting to provide patches as recently as last week. This would
indicate to me that the Qpid comminuty will continue to grow. Thank you
for your consideration in our Graduation.
regards
Carl
Scott Deboy wrote:
> I would expect to see proof of qpid's ability to grow their committership and build a user community before leaving the incubator. There's no track record of either at the moment.
>
> According to incubator-general mail archives, qpid voted in 4 committers since April of 2007. Additionally, those folks don't appear active on the qpid developer list.
>
> The 'diversity' question was partially answered, but it's still a concern for me.
>
> I imagine it'll be hard to attract new folks to qpid when they're mostly corporate-sponsored, and some of those sponsorships -can't- be transparent to the ASF. They'll probably be able to attract committers, but the new committers will probably come from other corporate sponsors.
>
>
>
>
> Scott Deboy
> COMOTIV SYSTEMS
> 111 SW Columbia Street Ste. 950
> Portland, OR 97201
>
> Telephone: 503.224.7496
> Cell: 503.997.1367
> Fax: 503.222.0185
>
> sdeboy@comotivsystems.com
>
> www.comotivsystems.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: yoavshapira@gmail.com on behalf of Yoav Shapira
> Sent: Fri 3/21/2008 4:52 AM
> To: general@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Statements from Qpid mentors would help me decide... [WAS Re: [VOTE] Apache Qpid Graduation as TLP]
>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 4:19 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin
> <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 6:55 PM, Carl Trieloff <cc...@redhat.com> wrote:
>> > At this point the Apache Qpid community with support from its mentors feels that
>> > it is ready to graduate to an official top level project at Apache
>>
>> but another voice asks: are they really ready today? has the IPMC
>> fully equipped them for the chanlleges ahead? do they really
>> understand how to mentor new independent developers into committers
>> and PMCers? is the diversity sufficient to have learnt how to have
>> disagreements on technical matters whilst retaining community spirit?
>>
>
> It's a hard call for me as well. The technical bits are all there,
> processes followed, paperwork filed, etc. More importantly, the qpid
> community has been open, receptive to feedback from everyone inside
> and outside their group, welcoming to new opinions from new people,
> and respectful of ASF spirit, not just its letter. There are
> disagreements and debates on various technical matters without hurting
> the community. That's why I support their graduation.
>
> It would have been really nice if one or two more committers from new
> organizations had been added during the previous few months, but that
> didn't happen. But I don't think the fact the committers come from a
> small set of organizations necessarily means there's no diversity.
> And I don't want to introduce artificial requirements. The "are they
> really ready" question is subjective by definition, and it's a good
> one, but I still vote +1 ;)
>
> Yoav
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
RE: Statements from Qpid mentors would help me decide... [WAS Re: [VOTE] Apache Qpid Graduation as TLP]
Posted by Scott Deboy <sd...@comotivsystems.com>.
I would expect to see proof of qpid's ability to grow their committership and build a user community before leaving the incubator. There's no track record of either at the moment.
According to incubator-general mail archives, qpid voted in 4 committers since April of 2007. Additionally, those folks don't appear active on the qpid developer list.
The 'diversity' question was partially answered, but it's still a concern for me.
I imagine it'll be hard to attract new folks to qpid when they're mostly corporate-sponsored, and some of those sponsorships -can't- be transparent to the ASF. They'll probably be able to attract committers, but the new committers will probably come from other corporate sponsors.
Scott Deboy
COMOTIV SYSTEMS
111 SW Columbia Street Ste. 950
Portland, OR 97201
Telephone: 503.224.7496
Cell: 503.997.1367
Fax: 503.222.0185
sdeboy@comotivsystems.com
www.comotivsystems.com
-----Original Message-----
From: yoavshapira@gmail.com on behalf of Yoav Shapira
Sent: Fri 3/21/2008 4:52 AM
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Statements from Qpid mentors would help me decide... [WAS Re: [VOTE] Apache Qpid Graduation as TLP]
On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 4:19 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin
<ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 6:55 PM, Carl Trieloff <cc...@redhat.com> wrote:
> > At this point the Apache Qpid community with support from its mentors feels that
> > it is ready to graduate to an official top level project at Apache
>
> but another voice asks: are they really ready today? has the IPMC
> fully equipped them for the chanlleges ahead? do they really
> understand how to mentor new independent developers into committers
> and PMCers? is the diversity sufficient to have learnt how to have
> disagreements on technical matters whilst retaining community spirit?
It's a hard call for me as well. The technical bits are all there,
processes followed, paperwork filed, etc. More importantly, the qpid
community has been open, receptive to feedback from everyone inside
and outside their group, welcoming to new opinions from new people,
and respectful of ASF spirit, not just its letter. There are
disagreements and debates on various technical matters without hurting
the community. That's why I support their graduation.
It would have been really nice if one or two more committers from new
organizations had been added during the previous few months, but that
didn't happen. But I don't think the fact the committers come from a
small set of organizations necessarily means there's no diversity.
And I don't want to introduce artificial requirements. The "are they
really ready" question is subjective by definition, and it's a good
one, but I still vote +1 ;)
Yoav
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Statements from Qpid mentors would help me decide... [WAS Re: [VOTE] Apache Qpid Graduation as TLP]
Posted by Yoav Shapira <yo...@yoavshapira.com>.
On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 4:19 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin
<ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 6:55 PM, Carl Trieloff <cc...@redhat.com> wrote:
> > At this point the Apache Qpid community with support from its mentors feels that
> > it is ready to graduate to an official top level project at Apache
>
> but another voice asks: are they really ready today? has the IPMC
> fully equipped them for the chanlleges ahead? do they really
> understand how to mentor new independent developers into committers
> and PMCers? is the diversity sufficient to have learnt how to have
> disagreements on technical matters whilst retaining community spirit?
It's a hard call for me as well. The technical bits are all there,
processes followed, paperwork filed, etc. More importantly, the qpid
community has been open, receptive to feedback from everyone inside
and outside their group, welcoming to new opinions from new people,
and respectful of ASF spirit, not just its letter. There are
disagreements and debates on various technical matters without hurting
the community. That's why I support their graduation.
It would have been really nice if one or two more committers from new
organizations had been added during the previous few months, but that
didn't happen. But I don't think the fact the committers come from a
small set of organizations necessarily means there's no diversity.
And I don't want to introduce artificial requirements. The "are they
really ready" question is subjective by definition, and it's a good
one, but I still vote +1 ;)
Yoav
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Apache Qpid Graduation as TLP
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 7:25 PM, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> Carl Trieloff wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the input -- we will be back :-)
great :-)
(after reading the entire thread, i was very close to +1'ing)
> > At this point we have decided to abandon the vote
>
> Carl, I do hope that the community is taking this in a positive manner. I
> sincerely believe that the majority of us are actually very pleased with the
> QPid community,
+1
definitely
- robert
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Apache Qpid Graduation as TLP
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Carl Trieloff wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the input -- we will be back :-)
>> At this point we have decided to abandon the vote
>
> Carl, I do hope that the community is taking this in a positive manner. I
> sincerely believe that the majority of us are actually very pleased with the
> QPid community, but are all doing our due diligence to ensure that
> diversity, something we really believe is necessary for community health, is
> achieved.
Personal and work issues have gotten in the way of my chiming in on this
thread, but I concur with Noel. It actually sounds like we are very close,
once several of the current contributors become PPMC (and proposed initial
PMC) members.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
RE: [VOTE] Apache Qpid Graduation as TLP
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Carl Trieloff wrote:
> Thanks for the input -- we will be back :-)
> At this point we have decided to abandon the vote
Carl, I do hope that the community is taking this in a positive manner. I
sincerely believe that the majority of us are actually very pleased with the
QPid community, but are all doing our due diligence to ensure that
diversity, something we really believe is necessary for community health, is
achieved.
--- Noel
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Apache Qpid Graduation as TLP
Posted by Carl Trieloff <cc...@redhat.com>.
Thanks for the input -- we will be back :-)
At this point we have decided to abandon the vote
regards
Carl.
Martijn Dashorst wrote:
> -1
>
> I agree with Dan, Robert, et al that QPid is on the right track and
> should be ready to graduate in a couple of months. Currently the
> absolute minimum diversity claim is barely met, with quite some debate
> regarding this is the case or not.
>
> Martijn
>
> On 3/23/08, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
>
>> Changing subject to match ...
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:noel@devtech.com]
>> Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 22:16
>> To: general@incubator.apache.org
>> Subject: RE: Statements from Qpid mentors would help me decide... [WAS
>> Re: [VOTE] Apache Qpid Graduation as TLP]
>>
>>
>> -1
>>
>> Agreeing with Dan Kulp, Robert, Dims, et al. I encourage QPid to keep
>> going, and am happy with its progress, but would like to see additional
>> diversity in the community.
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: [VOTE] Apache Qpid Graduation as TLP
Posted by Martijn Dashorst <ma...@gmail.com>.
-1
I agree with Dan, Robert, et al that QPid is on the right track and
should be ready to graduate in a couple of months. Currently the
absolute minimum diversity claim is barely met, with quite some debate
regarding this is the case or not.
Martijn
On 3/23/08, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> Changing subject to match ...
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:noel@devtech.com]
> Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 22:16
> To: general@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: RE: Statements from Qpid mentors would help me decide... [WAS
> Re: [VOTE] Apache Qpid Graduation as TLP]
>
>
> -1
>
> Agreeing with Dan Kulp, Robert, Dims, et al. I encourage QPid to keep
> going, and am happy with its progress, but would like to see additional
> diversity in the community.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
RE: [VOTE] Apache Qpid Graduation as TLP
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Changing subject to match ...
-----Original Message-----
From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:noel@devtech.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 22:16
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: Statements from Qpid mentors would help me decide... [WAS
Re: [VOTE] Apache Qpid Graduation as TLP]
-1
Agreeing with Dan Kulp, Robert, Dims, et al. I encourage QPid to keep
going, and am happy with its progress, but would like to see additional
diversity in the community.
--- Noel
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
RE: Statements from Qpid mentors would help me decide... [WAS Re: [VOTE] Apache Qpid Graduation as TLP]
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
-1
Agreeing with Dan Kulp, Robert, Dims, et al. I encourage QPid to keep
going, and am happy with its progress, but would like to see additional
diversity in the community.
--- Noel
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Statements from Qpid mentors would help me decide... [WAS Re:
[VOTE] Apache Qpid Graduation as TLP]
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
I agree with Robert, I'd prefer to wait a bit to see the community grow. Yes, it's a subjective call. No, not enough for
a -1....So my vote would be a -0.
thanks,
dims
Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
| On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 6:55 PM, Carl Trieloff <cc...@redhat.com> wrote:
|> Qpid entered into the incubator November 2006, and has made releases, is
|> in the
|> process of closing down another minor release and well on the way to the
|> next
|> major release, added new committers, and cleaned up Karma prior to
|> graduation
|> vote.
|>
|> At this point the Apache Qpid community with support from its mentors
|> feels that
|> it is ready to graduate to an official top level project at Apache
|
| i'm a little bit in two minds about this...
|
| i have lurked on the list from time-to-time and have been impressed. i
| think that TLP is the right destination and that QPID will be an good
| addition one day.
|
| but another voice asks: are they really ready today? has the IPMC
| fully equipped them for the chanlleges ahead? do they really
| understand how to mentor new independent developers into committers
| and PMCers? is the diversity sufficient to have learnt how to have
| disagreements on technical matters whilst retaining community spirit?
|
| right or wrong, i'm not completely convinced right now...
|
| - robert
|
| ---------------------------------------------------------------------
| To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
| For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
|
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Cygwin)
iD8DBQFH48spgNg6eWEDv1kRAlSpAKCX9Oe9YUZgTKpHMiGySeYz2++QsACgxsBU
E7OaHaEflqDvVIJXQpCYfzw=
=IOZy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org