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Posted to dev@geronimo.apache.org by lichtner <li...@bway.net> on 2006/03/17 19:23:49 UTC
Incubations
I wanted to see what this incubation problem is all about, so I took a
look at the web site http://incubator.apache.org/resolution.html .
It says that the B.o.D. has determined that it's in "the best interests of
the Foundation" to create this incubator PMC charged with "providing
guidance", to help products engender "their own collaborative community",
and "educating" new developers.
So you do not want to get incubated by Apache unless:
- You care deeply about the Apache Foundation.
- You project needs "guidance."
- You need your project to have a "community."
Philosophy eventually rises up to the surface. This resolution may explain
why we are seeing so many emails about ActiveMQ graduating etc.
The Apache Foundation is generous to provide resources to open-source
projects, but this is not an entirely selfless act. If your project
consists of one person, it does not qualify as a good ASF project because
it doesn't have a "community", for example. If your project doesn't
believe in democracy then it's not a good ASF project.
Personally, I would not get a project incubated to help ASF be all it can
be. I don't necessarily care about ASF, I do care about the Apache httpd
and the other projects which are hosted by ASF but which might as well be
hosted somewhere else.
I think that if Geronimo is at odds with ASF's idealistic, abstract
motivations it should pack up its code and move somewhere else where it
can focus on coding. If they are only staying for the free services then
perhaps IBM can donate those.
Not to mention that the project is so big it could have its own
foundation ...
Re: Incubations
Posted by Jason Dillon <ja...@planet57.com>.
I agree. While opinions are valuable, when they are collected in
emails like this they become dangerous and harmful.
--jason
On Mar 17, 2006, at 10:32 AM, David Blevins wrote:
> Seriously, people. Let's refrain from sensational emails whose
> only point is to make things worse.
>
> We are all here cause we want to work together and make great
> communities, software and a better ASF.
>
> -David
>
> On Mar 17, 2006, at 10:23 AM, lichtner wrote:
>
>>
>> I wanted to see what this incubation problem is all about, so I
>> took a
>> look at the web site http://incubator.apache.org/resolution.html .
>>
>> It says that the B.o.D. has determined that it's in "the best
>> interests of
>> the Foundation" to create this incubator PMC charged with "providing
>> guidance", to help products engender "their own collaborative
>> community",
>> and "educating" new developers.
>>
>> So you do not want to get incubated by Apache unless:
>>
>> - You care deeply about the Apache Foundation.
>> - You project needs "guidance."
>> - You need your project to have a "community."
>>
>> Philosophy eventually rises up to the surface. This resolution may
>> explain
>> why we are seeing so many emails about ActiveMQ graduating etc.
>>
>> The Apache Foundation is generous to provide resources to open-source
>> projects, but this is not an entirely selfless act. If your project
>> consists of one person, it does not qualify as a good ASF project
>> because
>> it doesn't have a "community", for example. If your project doesn't
>> believe in democracy then it's not a good ASF project.
>>
>> Personally, I would not get a project incubated to help ASF be all
>> it can
>> be. I don't necessarily care about ASF, I do care about the Apache
>> httpd
>> and the other projects which are hosted by ASF but which might as
>> well be
>> hosted somewhere else.
>>
>> I think that if Geronimo is at odds with ASF's idealistic, abstract
>> motivations it should pack up its code and move somewhere else
>> where it
>> can focus on coding. If they are only staying for the free
>> services then
>> perhaps IBM can donate those.
>>
>> Not to mention that the project is so big it could have its own
>> foundation ...
>>
>
Re: Incubations
Posted by lichtner <li...@bway.net>.
On Fri, 17 Mar 2006, Jason Dillon wrote:
> Prior to escalation to the ASF, a Podling needs to show that :
>
> * it is a worthy and healthy project;
> * it truly fits within the ASF framework;and
> * it "gets" the Apache Way.
> </snip>
>
> Part of the way is to resolve conflict with in the community.
> lichtner's comment of "should pack up its code and move somewhere
> else" is IMO sensationalism and is not helpful to the Geronimo
> community, or to the incoming podling communities which we are trying
> to resolve how best to integrate with our own.
To someone who is "ASF or nothing" it was not helpful. To people whose
first priority is the code, it could be helpful.
Re: Incubations
Posted by Jason Dillon <ja...@planet57.com>.
> Similiarly, if the primary criteria for graduation from incubation is
> indoctrination into "The ASF Way", and not code or community maturity, this
> is something that needs to be communicated. If the reverse is the case,
> this needs to be communicated as well.
See http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Incubation_Policy.html#Minimum+Exit+Requirements
The first bits of that section state:
<snip>
Prior to escalation to the ASF, a Podling needs to show that :
* it is a worthy and healthy project;
* it truly fits within the ASF framework;and
* it "gets" the Apache Way.
</snip>
Part of the way is to resolve conflict with in the community.
lichtner's comment of "should pack up its code and move somewhere
else" is IMO sensationalism and is not helpful to the Geronimo
community, or to the incoming podling communities which we are trying
to resolve how best to integrate with our own.
--jason
Re: Incubations
Posted by Dain Sundstrom <da...@iq80.com>.
On Mar 18, 2006, at 4:39 AM, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
> Playgrounds are a common analogy, so let's try that. If the
> ASF is a playground, then the incubator is the monitor that
> makes sure newcomers play well with others. No hogging the
> toys, no bullying, no throwing things at people passing by,
> no moping in the corner. If someone new comes to the playground,
> and only knows one kid already there, the latter isn't allowed
> to *make* the newcomer play only with him. The new kid is
> introduced to the rest of the kids, and then things pretty
> much allowed to take their course.
:)
The is awesome and should go on the incubator website.
-dain
Re: Incubations
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
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Hash: SHA1
ian.d.stewart@jpmchase.com wrote:
> I personally didn't find anything sensational about lichtner's
> e-mail. I think he raises a valid point. If the primary goal of
> Apache Geronimo is to develope a quality, open source J2EE offering
Yes.
> as a means of advancing the interests of the ASF (whatever those may
> be), as opposed to an end in and of itself
Qualified no. Not advancing the interests of the ASF, but
certainly not harming them either.
> Similiarly, if the primary criteria for graduation from incubation is
> indoctrination into "The ASF Way", and not code or community
> maturity, this is something that needs to be communicated. If the
> reverse is the case, this needs to be communicated as well.
'Indoctrinate' is one of those multi-valued words (compare
'sanction' as a verb with its use as a noun) that can lead to
all sorts of strife when misconstrued, so let's be clear
on how it's being used here to describe some of the Incubator's
actions.
- From http://tinyurl.com/kp3w8 (Merriam-Webster dictionary site):
> 1 : to instruct especially in fundamentals or rudiments : TEACH
Yes.
> 2 : to imbue with a usually partisan or sectarian opinion, point of
> view, or principle
No.
The incubator isn't about trying to teach anyone how to write
code, or to code in a particular way. Off the top of my head,
it's about:
1. safeguarding legal rights and making sure people can legally
do what they want to do with code; and
2. indoctrinating (first definition) newcomers to the ASF with a
code of conduct, outlook, and procedural methods that will
let people familiar with other ASF projects hit the ground
running when they get involved with Geronimo, allow Geronimo
participants to do likewise elsewhere at the ASF, and not
reflect poorly on the ASF itself.
Playgrounds are a common analogy, so let's try that. If the
ASF is a playground, then the incubator is the monitor that
makes sure newcomers play well with others. No hogging the
toys, no bullying, no throwing things at people passing by,
no moping in the corner. If someone new comes to the playground,
and only knows one kid already there, the latter isn't allowed
to *make* the newcomer play only with him. The new kid is
introduced to the rest of the kids, and then things pretty
much allowed to take their course.
As I said, this is all off the top of my head, and the analogy
may be incomplete or flawed beyond belief. :-) Assuming it
*is* a reasonably accurate analogy for the incubator's purposes,
does it seem reasonable or unreasonable? And how much do actual
events and behaviours deviate from it?
All IMHO.
- --
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: Incubations
Posted by ia...@jpmchase.com.
I personally didn't find anything sensational about lichtner's e-mail. I
think he raises a valid point. If the primary goal of Apache Geronimo is
to develope a quality, open source J2EE offering as a means of advancing
the interests of the ASF (whatever those may be), as opposed to an end in
and of itself, this is something potential contributors have a right to
know.
Similiarly, if the primary criteria for graduation from incubation is
indoctrination into "The ASF Way", and not code or community maturity, this
is something that needs to be communicated. If the reverse is the case,
this needs to be communicated as well.
Ian
It's better to be hated for who you are
than loved for who you are not
Ian D. Stewart
Appl Dev Analyst-Advisory, DCS Automation
JPMorganChase Global Technology Infrastructure
Phone: (614) 244-2564
Pager: (888) 260-0078
David Blevins
<david.blevins@vi To: dev@geronimo.apache.org
si.com> cc:
Subject: Re: Incubations
03/17/2006 01:32
PM
Please respond to
dev
Seriously, people. Let's refrain from sensational emails whose only
point is to make things worse.
We are all here cause we want to work together and make great
communities, software and a better ASF.
-David
On Mar 17, 2006, at 10:23 AM, lichtner wrote:
>
> I wanted to see what this incubation problem is all about, so I took a
> look at the web site http://incubator.apache.org/resolution.html .
>
> It says that the B.o.D. has determined that it's in "the best
> interests of
> the Foundation" to create this incubator PMC charged with "providing
> guidance", to help products engender "their own collaborative
> community",
> and "educating" new developers.
>
> So you do not want to get incubated by Apache unless:
>
> - You care deeply about the Apache Foundation.
> - You project needs "guidance."
> - You need your project to have a "community."
>
> Philosophy eventually rises up to the surface. This resolution may
> explain
> why we are seeing so many emails about ActiveMQ graduating etc.
>
> The Apache Foundation is generous to provide resources to open-source
> projects, but this is not an entirely selfless act. If your project
> consists of one person, it does not qualify as a good ASF project
> because
> it doesn't have a "community", for example. If your project doesn't
> believe in democracy then it's not a good ASF project.
>
> Personally, I would not get a project incubated to help ASF be all
> it can
> be. I don't necessarily care about ASF, I do care about the Apache
> httpd
> and the other projects which are hosted by ASF but which might as
> well be
> hosted somewhere else.
>
> I think that if Geronimo is at odds with ASF's idealistic, abstract
> motivations it should pack up its code and move somewhere else
> where it
> can focus on coding. If they are only staying for the free services
> then
> perhaps IBM can donate those.
>
> Not to mention that the project is so big it could have its own
> foundation ...
>
Re: Incubations
Posted by David Blevins <da...@visi.com>.
Seriously, people. Let's refrain from sensational emails whose only
point is to make things worse.
We are all here cause we want to work together and make great
communities, software and a better ASF.
-David
On Mar 17, 2006, at 10:23 AM, lichtner wrote:
>
> I wanted to see what this incubation problem is all about, so I took a
> look at the web site http://incubator.apache.org/resolution.html .
>
> It says that the B.o.D. has determined that it's in "the best
> interests of
> the Foundation" to create this incubator PMC charged with "providing
> guidance", to help products engender "their own collaborative
> community",
> and "educating" new developers.
>
> So you do not want to get incubated by Apache unless:
>
> - You care deeply about the Apache Foundation.
> - You project needs "guidance."
> - You need your project to have a "community."
>
> Philosophy eventually rises up to the surface. This resolution may
> explain
> why we are seeing so many emails about ActiveMQ graduating etc.
>
> The Apache Foundation is generous to provide resources to open-source
> projects, but this is not an entirely selfless act. If your project
> consists of one person, it does not qualify as a good ASF project
> because
> it doesn't have a "community", for example. If your project doesn't
> believe in democracy then it's not a good ASF project.
>
> Personally, I would not get a project incubated to help ASF be all
> it can
> be. I don't necessarily care about ASF, I do care about the Apache
> httpd
> and the other projects which are hosted by ASF but which might as
> well be
> hosted somewhere else.
>
> I think that if Geronimo is at odds with ASF's idealistic, abstract
> motivations it should pack up its code and move somewhere else
> where it
> can focus on coding. If they are only staying for the free services
> then
> perhaps IBM can donate those.
>
> Not to mention that the project is so big it could have its own
> foundation ...
>
Re: Incubations
Posted by Matt Hogstrom <ma...@hogstrom.org>.
Perhaps the points are valid but I'll add two observations:
1. The world is not perfect..never has been...never will be.
2. People seem to be spending more time debating points of conduct and policy
than coding. Perhaps everyone is exactly where they want to be.
Matt
lichtner wrote:
> I wanted to see what this incubation problem is all about, so I took a
> look at the web site http://incubator.apache.org/resolution.html .
>
> It says that the B.o.D. has determined that it's in "the best interests of
> the Foundation" to create this incubator PMC charged with "providing
> guidance", to help products engender "their own collaborative community",
> and "educating" new developers.
>
> So you do not want to get incubated by Apache unless:
>
> - You care deeply about the Apache Foundation.
> - You project needs "guidance."
> - You need your project to have a "community."
>
> Philosophy eventually rises up to the surface. This resolution may explain
> why we are seeing so many emails about ActiveMQ graduating etc.
>
> The Apache Foundation is generous to provide resources to open-source
> projects, but this is not an entirely selfless act. If your project
> consists of one person, it does not qualify as a good ASF project because
> it doesn't have a "community", for example. If your project doesn't
> believe in democracy then it's not a good ASF project.
>
> Personally, I would not get a project incubated to help ASF be all it can
> be. I don't necessarily care about ASF, I do care about the Apache httpd
> and the other projects which are hosted by ASF but which might as well be
> hosted somewhere else.
>
> I think that if Geronimo is at odds with ASF's idealistic, abstract
> motivations it should pack up its code and move somewhere else where it
> can focus on coding. If they are only staying for the free services then
> perhaps IBM can donate those.
>
> Not to mention that the project is so big it could have its own
> foundation ...
>
>
>