Blog on Tapestry's Future

[Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com>]

Warner has posted a blog entry on Tapestry's future:

http://jroller.com/page/WarnerOnstine?entry=why_hasn_t_tapestry_been

I'd love to see more comments. Honest comments about your experiences going
from 3 to 4, your thoughts on better adoption, how you feel about Tapestry 5
(especially if you are in a situation where you'll need to upgrade).  Please
avoid any comparisons of Tapestry to other frameworks (that just causes
flame wars).

-- 
Howard M. Lewis Ship
TWD Consulting, Inc.
Independent J2EE / Open-Source Java Consultant
Creator and PMC Chair, Apache Tapestry
Creator, Apache HiveMind

Professional Tapestry training, mentoring, support
and project work.  http://howardlewisship.com

Re: Blog on Tapestry's Future

[Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com>]

Annotations are the reason XML went away, which has opened up lots of other
possibilities (including true component subclassing). Once the hurdle of
backwards compatibility was (by)passed, many more and more powerful ideas
have come forwards (case insensitivity, event notifications instead of
listener methods, etc.).

On 5/27/07, Eko S.W. <sw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I dunno, but is the Annotation feature in JDK 5 the reason why T5 change
> so
> radically?
> --
> Best wishes,
> Eko SW
> http://swdev.blogs.friendster.com/my_blog/
>



-- 
Howard M. Lewis Ship
TWD Consulting, Inc.
Independent J2EE / Open-Source Java Consultant
Creator and PMC Chair, Apache Tapestry
Creator, Apache HiveMind

Professional Tapestry training, mentoring, support
and project work.  http://howardlewisship.com

Re: Blog on Tapestry's Future

["Eko S.W." <sw...@gmail.com>]

I dunno, but is the Annotation feature in JDK 5 the reason why T5 change so
radically?
-- 
Best wishes,
Eko SW
http://swdev.blogs.friendster.com/my_blog/

Re: Blog on Tapestry's Future

[Jan Vissers <Ja...@cumquat.nl>]

+1

> Howard,
>
> Tapestry development is a great responsability, with good and bad comments
> from everywhere.
> We have some app in T3, others moved to T4, and new projects are already
> using T5, I think that you''re on the right direction, doing a great job.
>
> like Jesse said, "T5 is everything we've always wanted Tapestry to be and
> it's only just begun."
> and, like Werner said "Tapestry is one of the best platforms to be
> developing your Web application on."
>
> I think that you have to complete T5 (alpha,beta,rc) as soon as possible,
> don't worry about others competitors frameworks, users will decide on.
>
> Thank you in advance, and keep with that nice work.
>
> Marcus
>



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Re: Blog on Tapestry's Future

[Marcus <mv...@gmail.com>]

Howard,

Tapestry development is a great responsability, with good and bad comments
from everywhere.
We have some app in T3, others moved to T4, and new projects are already
using T5, I think that you''re on the right direction, doing a great job.

like Jesse said, "T5 is everything we've always wanted Tapestry to be and
it's only just begun."
and, like Werner said "Tapestry is one of the best platforms to be
developing your Web application on."

I think that you have to complete T5 (alpha,beta,rc) as soon as possible,
don't worry about others competitors frameworks, users will decide on.

Thank you in advance, and keep with that nice work.

Marcus

Re: Blog on Tapestry's Future

[Jesse Kuhnert <jk...@gmail.com>]

I don't really want to add my comments to a blog but I guess I can make some
here.

Specifically - I'll just go down the list he referenced at the top as being
concerns of sorts:

-) JSF - Yes, there certainly is a lot of news about JSF all the time.  I
hear that some people are actually using it too.  I also have the feeling
that this is really geared towards the winforms / .net /
build-my-app-for-me-with-a-gui kind of crowd.  They can have that crowd if
they want it because I want nothing to do with those kinds of people. :)

It also mentions something about the positioning of java web frameworks as
far as adoption.  Obviously struts has been around since I don't know how
long...After doing a lot of tinkering with embedded systems / distributed
(and I do mean distributed, not just a "phrase" ) enterprise systems / etc
for a few years I was finally forced to face "java web development" again.
...When last I left it velocity had barely come out and I'm not sure if
there was anything else going on.

I took a peak at my co-workers "struts" application that he had started
coding up and almost immediately wanted to slit my wrists....Things looked
even ~worse~ than when I had left it - if that's even possible.  Acrobatics
with session objects -> jsp "views" were nauseating and un-interesting..
....I guess webwork has made things better in that area.  If you are in to
that sort of thing.

Tapestry does have some competitors now - but would there really even be a
JSF / Wicket / Stripes / etc framework around if not for Tapestry?  Well?
Maybe...maybe not...Since everyone seems to like failing to properly copy
Howard's work I remain unconvinced of the viability of any of the other
players....for the winforms crowds maybe - but not for real developers
writing real applications. =p

-) Rails ....Oh I don't know. I'm sure it's fun to write applications in
rails but again - not real enterprise applications that your companies
future will live or die upon the success of - ie a product.

Sure, you've got your revolutionhealth.com example of a real rails
enterprise application to look at. (
http://www.infoq.com/news/2007/02/revolution-health-profile)  The things
they don't talk about are what makes that such crock.  I only happen to know
these things because my best friend helped write it when we both left our
previous employer.  He's still doing it today if you can believe it. :0 .
It's ok to write an enterprise rails app when you have the most ridiculously
huge obnoxious server boxes known to man running it powered by capitol from
rich AOL founders.  Scaling problems? Through some more chips in that bitch!
BLehhh....

He has actually been trying to solve some of the problems they have by
looking at T5 as the model for writing components in a web environment.
We're discussing the possibility of him switching to jruby && re-using some
of the existing Tapestry 5 support to run things in the background while the
rest of it still remains in ruby form as far as anyone else is concerned.
Of course this is only between he and I privately right now, don't want to
bug Howard about it until the idea has germinated enough. .. There's a
reason why they have gag commercials of rails vs. Tapestry you know. ;)

They still have a long ways to go though...Like getting the runtime part
right - let alone a viable architecture for writing re-usable code in
massive applications. They are trying though -
http://ajaxian.com/archives/railsconf-2007-day-1 .  Oops, we added subdomain
caching of assets but forgot that you have to consistently use the same
subdomain for an asset instead of cycling the names around in order to get
the benefit of caching.. Garrr...They will get there some day though I'm
sure.

-) Grails / Tools - ? I don't care.

-) Shifting sands - Yes this is / was an issue.  Looking at an abstract
class with abstract properties isn't exactly the most popular idea these
days with all the good work being done around Pojo's and such.  This is the
core reason why T5 had to happen.  It's why seam hasn't been able to support
it as well as a slew of other things. ...Real pojo classes make a world of
difference.

So yeah, I guess there are concerns to be had and such but "eh" ...I'm not
feeling very fussed about any of it.  T5 is everything we've always wanted
Tapestry to be and it's only just begun.  If things haven't picked up by
this time next year I'll be more worried but there are only so many new
projects being started every day ....Give it a chance to get used first
before getting worried about it. :)

p.s. We do actually have more developers now. Besides Daniel Gredler the
vote passed just today and Marcus Schulte / Ben Dotte are now officially
committers.

On 5/21/07, Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Warner has posted a blog entry on Tapestry's future:
>
> http://jroller.com/page/WarnerOnstine?entry=why_hasn_t_tapestry_been
>
> I'd love to see more comments. Honest comments about your experiences
> going
> from 3 to 4, your thoughts on better adoption, how you feel about Tapestry
> 5
> (especially if you are in a situation where you'll need to
> upgrade).  Please
> avoid any comparisons of Tapestry to other frameworks (that just causes
> flame wars).
>
> --
> Howard M. Lewis Ship
> TWD Consulting, Inc.
> Independent J2EE / Open-Source Java Consultant
> Creator and PMC Chair, Apache Tapestry
> Creator, Apache HiveMind
>
> Professional Tapestry training, mentoring, support
> and project work.  http://howardlewisship.com
>



-- 
Jesse Kuhnert
Tapestry/Dojo team member/developer

Open source based consulting work centered around
dojo/tapestry/tacos/hivemind. http://blog.opencomponentry.com

Re: Blog on Tapestry's Future

[Peter Stavrinides <p....@albourne.com>]

 >On 5/21/07, Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com> wrote:
 >I'd love to see more comments. Honest comments about your experiences 
going
 >from 3 to 4, your thoughts on better adoption, how you feel about 
Tapestry 5
 >(especially if you are in a situation where you'll need to upgrade).  
Please
 >avoid any comparisons of Tapestry to other frameworks (that just causes
 >flame wars).

Answering without some comparisons to other frameworks is very 
difficult, because people base their evaluations on their experience. In 
the ten years I have been developing web apps I have used many decent 
web technologies including .Net, Perl,  ColdFusion, and each of these 
platforms had stuff I liked, and so too does Tapestry.

I personally believe the secret to adoption is 1. Ease of use, and 2. 
Productivity. Tapestry in my opinion is neither. Needless to say this 
comment I sn't intended  as an insult, because Tapestry is a wonderfull 
framework and does many things far better than its competitors, but I am 
not an idealist... I prefer like most people just to get my work done as 
quickly and efficiently as possible.

Tapestry 4 was not easy to use because of the following: a lack of 
quality and up-to-date documentation; a lack of working examples; a 
shortage of published information; too much configuration; too many 
dependency and deployment problems, and worst of all the class reloading 
inefficiencies.

Improving Tapestry is not just about the technology, but also about all 
those very time consuming extras that surround it. Tapestry 5 is awesome 
in comparison to 4, I would even say that the new class reloading 
mechanism is totally innovative making it so much more productive than 
version 4, but this is offset by the time it takes to get everything 
going, getting all the configuration and deployment issues sorted, and 
of course not having a good online reference to work with as a start. Ok 
granted Tapestry 5 is still in pre-release, but if it goes anything like 
Tapestry 4 then I am sure I will feel more of those dark moments as my 
deadlines approach and I am stuck on some issues that aren't documented.

I originally scheduled an upgrade to Tapestry 5 this month, but I had to 
push it back for a while until I feel confident enough about 5. Our 
software systems are already running on Java 6 which also appears to be 
an obstacle, especially in development so I am stuck with 4 until it is 
resolved. Although this now leaves me with the problem that we have to 
keep developing new features in 4 so upgrading is becoming more and more 
difficult as time goes on.

Best wishes,
Peter

-- 
Peter Stavrinides
Albourne Partners (Cyprus) Ltd
Tel: +357 22 750652 

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Re: Blog on Tapestry's Future

[Massimo Lusetti <ml...@gmail.com>]

On 5/21/07, Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'd love to see more comments. Honest comments about your experiences going
> from 3 to 4, your thoughts on better adoption, how you feel about Tapestry 5
> (especially if you are in a situation where you'll need to upgrade).  Please
> avoid any comparisons of Tapestry to other frameworks (that just causes
> flame wars).

Well avoiding comparisons is difficult while commenting but let's say
I've come to Tapestry not so long ago having used some other
frameworks before.

The only thing i would like to comment on is that it seems Tapestry
let me do my stuff the way i want and when something looks slightly
different the way Tapestry was suggesting me to do it was the right
one, easy to follow, understand and maintain. T5 is even heavily
enhancing this feeling, if possible.

-- 
Massimo
http://meridio.blogspot.com

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