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Posted to dev@avalon.apache.org by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org> on 2004/12/01 02:26:43 UTC
RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Niclas Hedhman [mailto:niclas@hedhman.org]
> And on behalf of the developers at Avalon, I would like to Thank ALL
the
> past Chairs and members of the Avalon PMC, for a all-in-all a job well
> done.
I'm sorry - but you will have to exclude myself from the above
endorsement.
The Avalon community established a PMC to represent the community
interests concerning the direction and administration of the Avalon
project. The community interests were clear - a single platform, one
specification, a cohesive solution. That decision was not respected by
the outgoing chair nor the board of directors of the ASF.
That is not the definition of a job-well-done. Instead this is much
more about the weakness of individuals - in particular the members of
the board of directors of the ASF and not least of all our outgoing
chain. However - there is much that can be learnt from this. The
weaknesses of the BOD can be attributed to their collective
unwillingness to confront members of their own board. The weakness of
our Chair was more a question of his personal loyalty to the community.
Irrespective of the above obstacles a real and tangible alternative to
ASF continues under http://www.dpml.net. The fundamental difference -
no distinction between the people who contribute and the people who run
the process.
Stephen.
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RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Henning Schmiedehausen <hp...@intermeta.de>.
Messages like this are IMHO the main reason, why Avalon failed.
Stephen, you should understand, that community always means compromise.
You didn't seem to be able to accept that. In the end, these tensions
lead to the end of Avalon.
Story is over, no need to kick a dead horse. One of the good things
about ASF code _is_, that you can take it somewhere else and go on with
it.
Good luck with Metro/Merlin. But now, please let the dead rest.
Regards
Henning
On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 02:26, Stephen McConnell wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Niclas Hedhman [mailto:niclas@hedhman.org]
>
> > And on behalf of the developers at Avalon, I would like to Thank ALL
> the
> > past Chairs and members of the Avalon PMC, for a all-in-all a job well
>
> > done.
>
> I'm sorry - but you will have to exclude myself from the above
> endorsement.
>
> The Avalon community established a PMC to represent the community
> interests concerning the direction and administration of the Avalon
> project. The community interests were clear - a single platform, one
> specification, a cohesive solution. That decision was not respected by
> the outgoing chair nor the board of directors of the ASF.
>
> That is not the definition of a job-well-done. Instead this is much
> more about the weakness of individuals - in particular the members of
> the board of directors of the ASF and not least of all our outgoing
> chain. However - there is much that can be learnt from this. The
> weaknesses of the BOD can be attributed to their collective
> unwillingness to confront members of their own board. The weakness of
> our Chair was more a question of his personal loyalty to the community.
>
> Irrespective of the above obstacles a real and tangible alternative to
> ASF continues under http://www.dpml.net. The fundamental difference -
> no distinction between the people who contribute and the people who run
> the process.
>
> Stephen.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
--
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen INTERMETA GmbH
hps@intermeta.de +49 9131 50 654 0 http://www.intermeta.de/
RedHat Certified Engineer -- Jakarta Turbine Development -- hero for hire
Linux, Java, perl, Solaris -- Consulting, Training, Development
"Fighting for one's political stand is an honorable action, but re-
fusing to acknowledge that there might be weaknesses in one's
position - in order to identify them so that they can be remedied -
is a large enough problem with the Open Source movement that it
deserves to be on this list of the top five problems."
--Michelle Levesque, "Fundamental Issues with
Open Source Software Development"
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RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Henning Schmiedehausen <hp...@intermeta.de>.
Messages like this are IMHO the main reason, why Avalon failed.
Stephen, you should understand, that community always means compromise.
You didn't seem to be able to accept that. In the end, these tensions
lead to the end of Avalon.
Story is over, no need to kick a dead horse. One of the good things
about ASF code _is_, that you can take it somewhere else and go on with
it.
Good luck with Metro/Merlin. But now, please let the dead rest.
Regards
Henning
On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 02:26, Stephen McConnell wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Niclas Hedhman [mailto:niclas@hedhman.org]
>
> > And on behalf of the developers at Avalon, I would like to Thank ALL
> the
> > past Chairs and members of the Avalon PMC, for a all-in-all a job well
>
> > done.
>
> I'm sorry - but you will have to exclude myself from the above
> endorsement.
>
> The Avalon community established a PMC to represent the community
> interests concerning the direction and administration of the Avalon
> project. The community interests were clear - a single platform, one
> specification, a cohesive solution. That decision was not respected by
> the outgoing chair nor the board of directors of the ASF.
>
> That is not the definition of a job-well-done. Instead this is much
> more about the weakness of individuals - in particular the members of
> the board of directors of the ASF and not least of all our outgoing
> chain. However - there is much that can be learnt from this. The
> weaknesses of the BOD can be attributed to their collective
> unwillingness to confront members of their own board. The weakness of
> our Chair was more a question of his personal loyalty to the community.
>
> Irrespective of the above obstacles a real and tangible alternative to
> ASF continues under http://www.dpml.net. The fundamental difference -
> no distinction between the people who contribute and the people who run
> the process.
>
> Stephen.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
--
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen INTERMETA GmbH
hps@intermeta.de +49 9131 50 654 0 http://www.intermeta.de/
RedHat Certified Engineer -- Jakarta Turbine Development -- hero for hire
Linux, Java, perl, Solaris -- Consulting, Training, Development
"Fighting for one's political stand is an honorable action, but re-
fusing to acknowledge that there might be weaknesses in one's
position - in order to identify them so that they can be remedied -
is a large enough problem with the Open Source movement that it
deserves to be on this list of the top five problems."
--Michelle Levesque, "Fundamental Issues with
Open Source Software Development"
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Thursday 16 December 2004 04:00, Serge Knystautas wrote:
> James was one of Avalon's most visible users, and I simply
> cannot stand to hear someone from Avalon criticize the ASF establishment
> about the treatment of Avalon users.
That does not make James/Cocoon and the other ASF projects the *only* users.
Now, thanks to the "private mails" issue that I have been hammered for in the
past, I can't quote the ASF Director on public lists, but when I previously
pointed out what level of support the Merlin route had among the users, I was
bluntly told; "that doesn't matter", and given BCEL as an example of plenty
of users but failure as a project.
Cheers
Niclas
--
+------//-------------------+
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/ http://niclas.hedhman.org /
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Stephen McConnell wrote:
>
> Irrespective
> of the validity of this opinion - members of the board actively
> encouraged Aaron to ignore any PMC opinion and take an "executive"
> decision.
Provide citations supporting this, please.
- --
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Scott Sanders <sa...@apache.org>.
> Thanks to those who helped lay the issues to rest, happy ranting
> to those who wish to beat the dead horse, and long live good code
> in whatever forum is appropriate to it.
Amen, +1
Scott
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RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
At 09:21 PM 12/19/2004, Stephen McConnell wrote:
>Maybe this about making Apache a better place by identifying hypocrisy
>here out in the open instead of behind the protection of private lists.
>Maybe it's about dealing with the breach of procedure by the Chair of a
>PMC and ensuring that this does not get rewarded nor repeated.
The phrase "can't we all get along" comes to mind.
Clearly that wasn't the case here, which is why, clearly, this
code had moved on to other venues.
Apache is about community (hence, the title of this mailing list)
and to my understanding, such didn't exist, or was so fractured
as to imply there was no salvaging it.
Thanks to those who helped lay the issues to rest, happy ranting
to those who wish to beat the dead horse, and long live good code
in whatever forum is appropriate to it.
Bill
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Serge Knystautas <se...@lokitech.com>.
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
>>That doesn't mean it's fair, or even matters that much.
>
> Passing judgement on someone often doesn't matter much, except to the
> 'convicted'. "Not guilty" vs "4 weeks in jail with parole" can change
> someone's life dramatically.
> Never-the-less.
Someone could write a novel on all the ways I've failed with respect to
the James project. Did you see that huge list of terrible dependencies?
I was the original code donator that got convinced to adopt to this
Avalon product (...that was only a few months away from releasing this
great server platform.) Hell, we're still losing to sendmail!
I just don't know what the big deal is about failing an open source
project. I certainly would never compare it to a conviction, guilt, or
jail.
> Are you hinting that ASF's significance will diminish over time, as it is
> unable to cope with its own growth in light of the legacy?
> Is there a scalability issue with OSS in general? In ASF?
> Are there long-term problems of keeping smaller projects healthy? How about
> the larger ones? Do they need the benevolent dictator with his lieutenants?
In a word, "dunno."
--
Serge Knystautas
Lokitech >> software . strategy . design >> http://www.lokitech.com
p. 301.656.5501
e. sergek@lokitech.com
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Monday 20 December 2004 10:01, Serge Knystautas wrote:
> That doesn't mean it's fair, or even matters that much.
Passing judgement on someone often doesn't matter much, except to the
'convicted'. "Not guilty" vs "4 weeks in jail with parole" can change
someone's life dramatically.
Never-the-less.
> To
> play devil's advocate, everything new I use is built outside of the ASF,
> so what's the big deal about having to take your code elsewhere?
Besides some few weeks of code transmorphing, license-based impossibilities of
remaining totally backward compatible and the hassles coming from our choice
of hosting ourselves (cost of dedicated hosting is dropping rapidly), I now
agree that being outside ASF has many advantages, and far fewer disadvantages
than I expected.
Are you hinting that ASF's significance will diminish over time, as it is
unable to cope with its own growth in light of the legacy?
Is there a scalability issue with OSS in general? In ASF?
Are there long-term problems of keeping smaller projects healthy? How about
the larger ones? Do they need the benevolent dictator with his lieutenants?
Just some thoughts...
Cheers
Niclas
--
+------//-------------------+
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/ http://niclas.hedhman.org /
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Stephen McConnell wrote:
> From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:geirm@apache.org]
>>
>> I realize that this is little more than a filibuster, and I probably
>> should be smacked for feeding *this* troll
>
> *smack*
>
> Stephen.
Excellent, Geir! Reponding to Stephen, you 'should be smacked for
feeding the troll.' Stephen himself smacked you. Ergo, Stephen
evidently agrees that you're feeding a troll, and, since you were
reponding to him, he's the one trolling.
ROTFLMAO! <grin>
- --
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:geirm@apache.org]
> Sent: 21 December 2004 20:13
> To: community@apache.org
> Cc: coar@apache.org
> Subject: Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
>
>
> On Dec 21, 2004, at 2:02 PM, Stephen McConnell wrote:
>
> > Authority without accountability?
> >
> > I'm could imagine why you and other members of the board feel
> > comfortable with this. Make a chair accountable to the committee
and
> > the next thing you know will be board accountability to chairs. Oh
god
> > - would that send a rocket up the darker passages of the ASF!
>
> I realize that this is little more than a filibuster, and I probably
> should be smacked for feeding *this* troll
*smack*
Stephen.
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
On Dec 21, 2004, at 2:02 PM, Stephen McConnell wrote:
> Authority without accountability?
>
> I'm could imagine why you and other members of the board feel
> comfortable with this. Make a chair accountable to the committee and
> the next thing you know will be board accountability to chairs. Oh god
> - would that send a rocket up the darker passages of the ASF!
I realize that this is little more than a filibuster, and I probably
should be smacked for feeding *this* troll, but I'm a board member, I
voted for pushing Avalon over the side, and wonder why you believe that
we could invert the oversight structure? Would the membership then be
accountable to the board?
We are structured to provide demonstrable oversight of the organization
on behalf of the membership. We are accountable to the membership. We
are elected by the membership, and can be thrown out, singly or en
masse, by the membership.
To that end, the board is charged with establishing PMCs, which are
managed by an officer of the corporation, the PMC Chair. This person
has the right to make decisions on behalf of the corporation (being an
officer) that he or she considers to be in the best interest of the
corporation.
Where's the problem?
geir
(For the record, I support the actions of the board in this matter, and
specifically, Greg's explanation of how things work...)
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
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RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rodent of Unusual Size [mailto:Ken.Coar@Golux.Com]
> Sent: 21 December 2004 21:55
> To: community@apache.org
> Subject: Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Stephen McConnell wrote:
> >
> > Clearly you are not prepared to face up to the fact that the there
is a
> > disconnect within the ASF policies and procedures and the
functioning of
> > an open community. Clearly you are not prepared, willing or able to
> > address this. You decision to abstain from further discussion
within
> > this context is an appropriate move and I commend and applaud this
> > decision.
>
> Last message on this: None of the above is clear. You are guilty out
> of your own mouth/keyboard of ascribing to others -- in this case me
--
> the motivations you want to believe they have. Your paragraph above
> demonstrates yet again that you will twist anything you can to support
> your position.
>
> By refraining from trying to deal with you further I am in no way
> suggesting that I believe you to be correct. Disengaging from a
debate
> does not equate to giving up and accepting the other side's argument.
>
> And to specifically and explicitly give the lie to your assertions
above,
> Stephen, I will gladly discuss any of the named issues with anyone
capable
> of doing so reasonably. I just no longer consider that to include
you. I
> am not 'abstaining from further discussion' on them -- I am abstaining
> from
> attempting to discuss them with *you*. So go ahead and find someone
else
> who supports your position, and can participate in reasonable
discussion,
> and get that person to engage me on those topics right here on this
list.
> Go ahead and feed that person lines behind the scenes if you like, to
make
> sure that you feel you're being represented. But don't bother trying
to
> represent yourself any more, at least not to me -- you have reduced
your
> own credibility to less than zero in my opinion through your choice of
> tactics.
Sooner of later you have to make a choice. Are you a part of the pile
or are your going to do something about the pile. It appears that you
have made that decision.
Stephen.
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Stephen McConnell wrote:
>
> Clearly you are not prepared to face up to the fact that the there is a
> disconnect within the ASF policies and procedures and the functioning of
> an open community. Clearly you are not prepared, willing or able to
> address this. You decision to abstain from further discussion within
> this context is an appropriate move and I commend and applaud this
> decision.
Last message on this: None of the above is clear. You are guilty out
of your own mouth/keyboard of ascribing to others -- in this case me --
the motivations you want to believe they have. Your paragraph above
demonstrates yet again that you will twist anything you can to support
your position.
By refraining from trying to deal with you further I am in no way
suggesting that I believe you to be correct. Disengaging from a debate
does not equate to giving up and accepting the other side's argument.
And to specifically and explicitly give the lie to your assertions above,
Stephen, I will gladly discuss any of the named issues with anyone capable
of doing so reasonably. I just no longer consider that to include you. I
am not 'abstaining from further discussion' on them -- I am abstaining from
attempting to discuss them with *you*. So go ahead and find someone else
who supports your position, and can participate in reasonable discussion,
and get that person to engage me on those topics right here on this list.
Go ahead and feed that person lines behind the scenes if you like, to make
sure that you feel you're being represented. But don't bother trying to
represent yourself any more, at least not to me -- you have reduced your
own credibility to less than zero in my opinion through your choice of
tactics.
- --
#ken P-(}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Stephen McConnell wrote:
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Rodent of Unusual Size [mailto:Ken.Coar@Golux.Com]
>>Sent: 21 December 2004 20:22
>>To: community@apache.org
>>Subject: Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
>>
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>>Stephen McConnell wrote:
>>
>>>>No policy adopted by a project can supercede the policies of the
>
> ASF.
>
>>>>Any that do are null and void, or, at best, advisory only.
>>>
>>>Then clearly you have been negligent in your responsibility towards
>
> the
>
>>>Avalon community.
>>
>>No more than, say, the federal government is to citizens of a state
>>when that state passes laws that encroach on federal authority. I.e.,
>>not at all. Things stand until they're tested.
>>
>>Bravo, Stephen; you've now competely and utterly convinced me that
>>you're an accomplished troll. It's evidently impossible to hold a
>>reasoned discussion with you. Apparently you're not the least bit
>>interested in Truth; all you're interested in is Being Right. Or
>>so it seems to me.
>>
>>Until you demonstrate that you can at least attempt dispassion and
>>objectivity, I don't intend to waste any more of my time responding
>>to your trolls.
>
>
> Clearly you are not prepared to face up to the fact that the there is a
> disconnect within the ASF policies and procedures and the functioning of
> an open community. Clearly you are not prepared, willing or able to
> address this. You decision to abstain from further discussion within
> this context is an appropriate move and I commend and applaud this
> decision.
Yes, Stephen, you are right: 9 directors, 120 members, 10 PMC members
and 200 subscribers to this list are wrong and you are right.
You are so right.
Oh my god, you are so right, please, please, take us in your new
wonderful world, please, take me with you! I so love your magic wisdom
and the fact that no matter what you have an answer for everything and
your world is so clean and perfect and shine
[john lennon's imagine playing in the back]
please, please, take me with you, I was wrong, all of us where wrong...
you know how to make software, you know how to make people unite for a
cause, you know how to bring money and experience and knowledge to
people so that they will be grateful to you and send you good vibes...
please, please, don't go away, stay with us, become the Executieve
Director and lead us to the next millenium and teach us your wisdom,
humility and balance.
--
Stefano.
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Serge Knystautas <se...@lokitech.com>.
Stephen McConnell wrote:
> Clearly you are not prepared to face up to the fact that the there is a
> disconnect within the ASF policies and procedures and the functioning of
> an open community. Clearly you are not prepared, willing or able to
> address this. You decision to abstain from further discussion within
> this context is an appropriate move and I commend and applaud this
> decision.
"consent by attrition"
--
Serge Knystautas
Lokitech >> software . strategy . design >> http://www.lokitech.com
p. 301.656.5501
e. sergek@lokitech.com
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Wednesday 22 December 2004 03:54, Scott Sanders wrote:
> If there is anything wrong
> with the policies and procedures of the ASF, it is that Avalon was not
> shut down in 2001 or before.
I have spent most of the evening reading mails pre-Avalon TLP and especially
the period around the TLP was formed, and I must agree the Scott. It was
infected way back.
> I would 'commend and applaud' your acceptance that there is an equal and
> opposite viewpoint to yours on this issue.
That has been identified and is acknowledged. I am now asking the question
that there is a disparity between the way Greg explains how it works and the
way projects operates. I have for instance brought up the PMC ByLaws issue,
which doesn't exist but many projects have.
> I also believe that the
> multiple opinions out there cannot be reconciled. I am willing to let
> it go at that, as there is no clear direction forward, since forward has
> a dozen meanings in this context. So why don't we drop it?
I have dropped "Avalon" out of the picture, that is history. I learned that
being a member of the PMC is not necessarily what you think it is. Why not
make the roles clear? Why not make sure that PMCs who has ByLaws, take those
down and replace with "Operational Procedures and Practices", which
accurately describes the chain of command that *are* in place at project
level, but barely mentioned anywhere?
Why not make sure that no more TLPs are created with a boiler text, speaking
of these project bylaws?
If everyone thinks this is at all not necessary, then fine do nothing about
it, let the descrepancy continue to exist, and I'll predict similar problems
sooner, rather than later, in the future.
Cheers
Niclas
--
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Scott Sanders <sa...@apache.org>.
>Clearly you are not prepared to face up to the fact that the there is a
>disconnect within the ASF policies and procedures and the functioning of
>an open community. Clearly you are not prepared, willing or able to
>address this. You decision to abstain from further discussion within
>this context is an appropriate move and I commend and applaud this
>decision.
>
>Stephen.
>
>
Stephen,
As one of the usually-silent members of the ASF, I take exception to
what you have said in most of this thread. If there is anything wrong
with the policies and procedures of the ASF, it is that Avalon was not
shut down in 2001 or before. The board tried and tried and tried to
stay out of the problems, hoping that the Avalon PMC would
self-correct. This did not happen. Avalon was shut down. IMHO, it
should have happened long before you became a major player in Avalon.
Avalon has historically forgot about the 'users' part of the community,
and that is something that I am not willing to let continue. I fully
support the decisions made by the Avalon PMC to shut the project down.
I find it a bit ironic that a 'perfect framework' project takes on a
named based on a mythically perfect community, and the community is
anything but.
I would 'commend and applaud' your acceptance that there is an equal and
opposite viewpoint to yours on this issue. I also believe that the
multiple opinions out there cannot be reconciled. I am willing to let
it go at that, as there is no clear direction forward, since forward has
a dozen meanings in this context. So why don't we drop it?
Scott Sanders
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RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rodent of Unusual Size [mailto:Ken.Coar@Golux.Com]
> Sent: 21 December 2004 20:22
> To: community@apache.org
> Subject: Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Stephen McConnell wrote:
> >>
> >> No policy adopted by a project can supercede the policies of the
ASF.
> >> Any that do are null and void, or, at best, advisory only.
> >
> > Then clearly you have been negligent in your responsibility towards
the
> > Avalon community.
>
> No more than, say, the federal government is to citizens of a state
> when that state passes laws that encroach on federal authority. I.e.,
> not at all. Things stand until they're tested.
>
> Bravo, Stephen; you've now competely and utterly convinced me that
> you're an accomplished troll. It's evidently impossible to hold a
> reasoned discussion with you. Apparently you're not the least bit
> interested in Truth; all you're interested in is Being Right. Or
> so it seems to me.
>
> Until you demonstrate that you can at least attempt dispassion and
> objectivity, I don't intend to waste any more of my time responding
> to your trolls.
Clearly you are not prepared to face up to the fact that the there is a
disconnect within the ASF policies and procedures and the functioning of
an open community. Clearly you are not prepared, willing or able to
address this. You decision to abstain from further discussion within
this context is an appropriate move and I commend and applaud this
decision.
Stephen.
> - --
> #ken P-)}
>
> Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Ken.Coar.Org/
> Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
>
> "Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Stephen McConnell wrote:
> Clearly you are not prepared to face up to the fact that the there is a
> disconnect within the ASF policies and procedures and the functioning of
> an open community.
Rather, you are not willing to see that despite the ASF's utopian ideals, we
recognize in our legal construct that things may not always have a utopian
existence, and we provide for handling such (happily uncommon) cases.
--- Noel
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RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rodent of Unusual Size [mailto:Ken.Coar@Golux.Com]
> Sent: 21 December 2004 20:22
> To: community@apache.org
> Subject: Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Stephen McConnell wrote:
> >>
> >> No policy adopted by a project can supercede the policies of the
> >> ASF. Any that do are null and void, or, at best, advisory only.
> >
> > Then clearly you have been negligent in your responsibility towards
> > the Avalon community.
>
> No more than, say, the federal government is to citizens of a state
> when that state passes laws that encroach on federal authority. I.e.,
> not at all. Things stand until they're tested.
>
> Bravo, Stephen; you've now competely and utterly convinced me that
> you're an accomplished troll. It's evidently impossible to hold a
> reasoned discussion with you. Apparently you're not the least bit
> interested in Truth; all you're interested in is Being Right. Or so
> it seems to me.
>
> Until you demonstrate that you can at least attempt dispassion and
> objectivity, I don't intend to waste any more of my time responding to
> your trolls.
Clearly you are not prepared to face up to the fact that the there is a
disconnect within the ASF policies and procedures and the functioning of
an open community. Clearly you are not prepared, willing or able to
address this. You decision to abstain from further discussion within
this context is an appropriate move and I commend and applaud this
decision.
Stephen.
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Stephen McConnell wrote:
>>
>> No policy adopted by a project can supercede the policies of the ASF.
>> Any that do are null and void, or, at best, advisory only.
>
> Then clearly you have been negligent in your responsibility towards the
> Avalon community.
No more than, say, the federal government is to citizens of a state
when that state passes laws that encroach on federal authority. I.e.,
not at all. Things stand until they're tested.
Bravo, Stephen; you've now competely and utterly convinced me that
you're an accomplished troll. It's evidently impossible to hold a
reasoned discussion with you. Apparently you're not the least bit
interested in Truth; all you're interested in is Being Right. Or
so it seems to me.
Until you demonstrate that you can at least attempt dispassion and
objectivity, I don't intend to waste any more of my time responding
to your trolls.
- --
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Stephen McConnell wrote:
> > No policy adopted by a project can supercede the policies of the ASF.
> > Any that do are null and void, or, at best, advisory only.
> Then clearly you have been negligent in your responsibility towards the
> Avalon community. If the Avalon policies are invalid - why did the
> Chairman not say so?
Actually, it was said at the time that the community was focusing far too
much on such "rules", and that the term "bylaws" was inappropriate because
the only bylaws were the legal ones for the Foundation.
-- Noel
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RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rodent of Unusual Size [mailto:Ken.Coar@Golux.Com]
> Sent: 21 December 2004 14:32
> To: community@apache.org
> Subject: Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Stephen McConnell wrote:
> >>
> >> Once again, there was no technical breach of procedure. Of custom,
> >> perhaps, but not of procedure. This is another dead horse that
> >> should stop getting beaten.
> >
> > A set of polices and procedures were established and these
procedures
> > governing the decision making processes within the Avalon PMC.
These
> > policies established rules concerning discussion, voting, and
reporting.
> > Unfortunately Aaron decided that he was above these rules, a notion
> > supported by the Chairman and a number of the members of the board.
>
> No policy adopted by a project can supercede the policies of the ASF.
> Any that do are null and void, or, at best, advisory only.
Then clearly you have been negligent in your responsibility towards the
Avalon community. If the Avalon policies are invalid - why did the
Chairman not say so? Why did *you* remain silent? Why did every member
of the board choose to sit or their thumbs? Explain how your selective
and timely prose contribute to the proper running of this organization?
Authority without accountability?
I'm could imagine why you and other members of the board feel
comfortable with this. Make a chair accountable to the committee and
the next thing you know will be board accountability to chairs. Oh god
- would that send a rocket up the darker passages of the ASF!
Stephen.
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Stephen McConnell wrote:
>>
>> Once again, there was no technical breach of procedure. Of custom,
>> perhaps, but not of procedure. This is another dead horse that
>> should stop getting beaten.
>
> A set of polices and procedures were established and these procedures
> governing the decision making processes within the Avalon PMC. These
> policies established rules concerning discussion, voting, and reporting.
> Unfortunately Aaron decided that he was above these rules, a notion
> supported by the Chairman and a number of the members of the board.
No policy adopted by a project can supercede the policies of the ASF.
Any that do are null and void, or, at best, advisory only.
> There is absolute indisputable evidence of Aaron disregard for these
> procedures and the opinion of the PMC. Lets' not even argue about that.
I believe there may have been disagreement between Aaron and some
members of the PMC. Certainly not a majority, in which case the
statement 'Aaron disregarded the opinion of the PMC' is just a handwave.
If the entire PMC wanted a different approach taken, or even a majority
did, then perhaps your assertion migh be consodered to have some validity.
In addition, 'disregard' means 'ignore' -- which is not the same as
'considering but not choosing to accept.' So I *do* dispute your claims.
'Let's not argue' ? Then let's stop asserting controversial positions
and saying they're fact and not worth arguing about.
> Instead I would suggest you think about the impact of these actions on
> the PMC members and the community. The breakdown in trust underpins the
> subject of this thread and every single person subscribed to this list
> is better off for knowing that. So instead of defending the ASF - how
> about thinking about strengthening what you have by at least listening
> and perhaps suggesting ways in which we can prevent this in the future.
If I believed there was something improper here that should be prevented
in the future, aye. Since I don't, then defending the ASF, and the positions
taken which I consider correct and valid, is certainly preferable to
*not* defending them and letting assertions I consider rubbish to prevail
unchallenged and by default.
- --
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rodent of Unusual Size [mailto:Ken.Coar@Golux.Com]
> Sent: 20 December 2004 22:16
> To: community@apache.org
> Subject: Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Stephen McConnell wrote:
> >
> > Maybe it's about dealing with the breach of procedure by the Chair
of a
> > PMC and ensuring that this does not get rewarded nor repeated.
>
> Once again, there was no technical breach of procedure. Of custom,
> perhaps, but not of procedure. This is another dead horse that
> should stop getting beaten.
A set of polices and procedures were established and these procedures
governing the decision making processes within the Avalon PMC. These
policies established rules concerning discussion, voting, and reporting.
Unfortunately Aaron decided that he was above these rules, a notion
supported by the Chairman and a number of the members of the board.
There is absolute indisputable evidence of Aaron disregard for these
procedures and the opinion of the PMC. Lets' not even argue about that.
Instead I would suggest you think about the impact of these actions on
the PMC members and the community. The breakdown in trust underpins the
subject of this thread and every single person subscribed to this list
is better off for knowing that. So instead of defending the ASF - how
about thinking about strengthening what you have by at least listening
and perhaps suggesting ways in which we can prevent this in the future.
Stephen.
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Stephen McConnell wrote:
>
> Maybe it's about dealing with the breach of procedure by the Chair of a
> PMC and ensuring that this does not get rewarded nor repeated.
Once again, there was no technical breach of procedure. Of custom,
perhaps, but not of procedure. This is another dead horse that
should stop getting beaten. Complain about the violation of custom,
if you like, but stop stating/insinuating that ASF policies/procedures
were violated. It didn't happen, at least not in the situation under
discussion.
> Maybe
> this is about sending a message to some of the members of the board that
> coercion has consequence.
Actually, I'm seeing quite a number of attempts here to 'send messages' to
several different destinations. So far most of them seem to be getting
marked 'return to sender.' Or perhaps they aren't really there, and I need
to have my prescription changed so I don't see 'em any more.
- --
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Stephen McConnell wrote:
> Maybe this about making Apache a better place by identifying hypocrisy
> here out in the open instead of behind the protection of private lists.
<<yawn>> The facts don't bear witness to the claim.
> Maybe it's about dealing with the breach of procedure by the Chair of a
> PMC and ensuring that this does not get rewarded nor repeated. Maybe
> this is about sending a message to some of the members of the board that
> coercion has consequence.
None of which happened.
--- Noel
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RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Serge Knystautas [mailto:sergek@lokitech.com]
> I can somewhat understand though not empathize with
> wanting to have history reflect what you see as having happened.
Maybe this about making Apache a better place by identifying hypocrisy
here out in the open instead of behind the protection of private lists.
Maybe it's about dealing with the breach of procedure by the Chair of a
PMC and ensuring that this does not get rewarded nor repeated. Maybe
this is about sending a message to some of the members of the board that
coercion has consequence.
Stephen.
> --
> Serge Knystautas
> Lokitech >> software . strategy . design >> http://www.lokitech.com p.
> 301.656.5501 e. sergek@lokitech.com
>
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Serge Knystautas <se...@lokitech.com>.
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> You really think that we consider that fair judgement?
I do not blame you or Stephen or anyone individually for James's
dependencies. Stephen asked the question of whether these dependencies
could, or rather shouldn't it, lead me to direct blame at the ASF
"establishment", and so I laid out the order in which I would assign
blame. Regardless of organizational structure (which I gave), it is
certainly the group of coders fault before someone who has never checked
out the code, and certainly the loud coders before the others. That
doesn't mean it's fair, or even matters that much.
I think Aaron should be sainted because a) it was volunteer and b) it
was a poisoned situation that needed to end. Nobody new should consider
linking to that codebase. Just let it die and the phoenix will be
reborn from its ashes (pun intended).
There certainly seems a lot of illwill between you+Stephen and the ASF
"establishment." I can somewhat understand though not empathize with
wanting to have history reflect what you see as having happened. To
play devil's advocate, everything new I use is built outside of the ASF,
so what's the big deal about having to take your code elsewhere?
--
Serge Knystautas
Lokitech >> software . strategy . design >> http://www.lokitech.com
p. 301.656.5501
e. sergek@lokitech.com
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
[fixed-width font required]
Serge,
I disagree with your assessment that "You [Steve], as a primary actor in the
Avalon community, failed..."
1. Steve is accused of becoming the "primary actor" of late, when the other
primary actors, like Peter Donald, Berin Loritsch, Nicola Ken Barozzi, Paul
Hammant, Stefano Mazzocchi (I probably left a few out), had left, i.e.
towards the later part of 2003.
2. So, let's re-examine the history of WHEN the James entropy sets in, i.e.
what has been 'killed' at which point in time;
Dates in parenthesis, is the last trace I can find of it.
+++ means possibly not rebuildable from source, as I have not been able to
locate the source directories in CVS history, only deleted Jars in the
Phoenix project.
Prior to Mid-2003 (i.e. before I was heavily involved)
excalibur-baxter-1.0a.jar DEAD+++ (27 Dec 2002)
phoenix-client.jar DEAD+++ ( 4 Apr 2003 )
phoenix-bsh-commands.jar DEAD ( 2 Mar 2003 )
excalibur-threadcontext-1.0.jar DEAD+++ (28 Feb 2003)
excalibur-containerkit-1.0.jar DEAD+++ (27 Dec 2002)
excalibur-extension-1.0a.jar DEAD+++ (28 Feb 2003)
These were repackaged into a "compatibility" deliverable, somewhere prior to
mid-2003, and handed over to the Excalibur TLP under a
"excalibur-compatibility" artifact/jar;
excalibur-cli-1.0.jar REPLACE BY COMMONS CLI
excalibur-collections-1.0.jar DEAD
excalibur-io-1.1.jar REPLACE BY COMMONS IO
excalibur-concurrent-1.0.jar DEAD
During the period when I was actively monitoring, and later committer, in the
Avalon project and Steve a "primary actor".
**** <none> *****
In the Excalibur TLP after taking over the code.
excalibur-i18n-1.0.jar DEAD (No longer in source repository)
excalibur-configuration-1.0.jar DEPRICATED
excalibur-util-1.0.jar DEAD (No longer in source repository)
excalibur-compatibility DEAD (No longer in source repository)
containing the concurrent,cli,io and
collections.
Indecisive;
excalibur-instrument-0.1.jar NEVER RELEASED
(I would say that is due to Steve and
my lack of interest in excalibur
codebase.)
cornerstone.jar UNRELEASED & UNREPRODUCABLE
(Unreproducable due to missing version,
even no snapshot id. Would have been
released in due time.)
Furthermore, the entire Excalibur codebase was not buildable when I came into
the Avalon project. I and Stephen spent a few weeks to get it to build, and
another few weeks to get Gump to build it. We had no interest in that
codebase per se. We just 'collaborated'.
NOW, for the Record, I get very upset when I look at the above, and that the
we (Stephen McConnell & myself) are accused of;
1. Not collaborating and unable to compromise.
2. Not being concerned of other ASF users, such as Cocoon and James.
3. Not taking care of Avalon legacy.
4. Consensus by Attrition.
To me it is more a matter of those who started Excalibur gave up on it,
deserted the user base, and managed to blame someone else (Steve and perhaps
me). As soon as the (basically) same group of primary actors, Berin & Peter,
regains their 'position' (i.e. Excalibur TLP) further axing of the legacy is
done, without much regards for projects like Cocoon and James.
You really think that we consider that fair judgement?
I assume, that most of the judgement passed on Steve from respectable people
like yourself, is only amplified FUD created and propagated by people who are
in disagreement with Steve on how Merlin should have been evolved. I can't
see any other explanation... Tragic!
> Can we start a new mailing list called last-word-freak@apache.org and
> somehow redirect all avalon-related emails to that?
Well, some people are interested in history and justice even if it is
superficial. ( Oh, I forgot, I have the right to remain silent... Go straight
to jail without passing GO. )
Cheers
Niclas
--
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Serge Knystautas <se...@lokitech.com>.
Stephen McConnell wrote:
>>I've tried to stay out of this thread(s), but I just have to say,
>>"give me a break." James was one of Avalon's most visible users, and
>>I simply cannot stand to hear someone from Avalon criticize the ASF
>>establishment about the treatment of Avalon users.
>
> Perhaps it could be argued that the following list positions James as a
> visible user of dead, never released, unreproducible, redundant and
> unsupported technology? I couldn't say. But I would like to know if
> this is what you meant by the ASF establishment taking care of the James
> community?
Stephen,
This is a straw man argument, because this is completely unrelated to my
primary point, which was that nobody had malicious intentions. It also
implies that had the board allowed you to create your TLC or Aaron
hadn't shutdown Avalon, James would have had a better set of dependencies.
But I'll play along for a moment.
Projects have layers of responsibility. You, as a primary actor in the
Avalon community, failed and are largely to blame for James' dependency
situation. Since you failed, Aaron had a responsibility as PMC chair to
do something, and he should be sainted for what he did.
Had Aaron failed, the board would had the opportunity to act, and had we
reached that point, I could have made a judgement on whether the
nefarious "they" were taking care of the James community.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man]
Can we start a new mailing list called last-word-freak@apache.org and
somehow redirect all avalon-related emails to that?
--
Serge Knystautas
Lokitech >> software . strategy . design >> http://www.lokitech.com
p. 301.656.5501
e. sergek@lokitech.com
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RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> The active committer community objected to the transfer of
> dead code from cvs to svn, arguing that the Avalon svn
> should contain the active alive code.
And that would have been wrong. SVN is our successor to CVS, and we are to
PRESERVE *ALL* history of our code, which is an asset.
> In my mind (and I'm not alone) this was the start of a fallout
> between the chair, certain members of the board, and members of
> the Avalon development community.
I'm not on the Board, and I am one of the most vocal at insisting on
absolute preservation of development history.
--- Noel
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RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Serge Knystautas [mailto:sergek@lokitech.com]
> Sent: 15 December 2004 21:01
> To: community@apache.org
> Subject: Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
>
> Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> > Smoke and Mirrors - isn't there a passage in the New Testament
> > with something about sin and stones ? And it's amazing how high the
> > political .... can stack without smell. But, anyway, that is history
> > so let's move on with our lives - after all, the only ones who
> > really got hurt were the Avalon users, and the ASF establishment
> > have already declared that they are not important.
> >
>
> I've tried to stay out of this thread(s), but I just have to say,
> "give me a break." James was one of Avalon's most visible users, and
> I simply cannot stand to hear someone from Avalon criticize the ASF
> establishment about the treatment of Avalon users.
Serge:
Perhaps it could be argued that the following list positions James as a
visible user of dead, never released, unreproducible, redundant and
unsupported technology? I couldn't say. But I would like to know if
this is what you meant by the ASF establishment taking care of the James
community?
Dependency ASF Management Strategy
avalon-framework-4.1.3.jar EXCALIBUR
excalibur-pool-1.0.jar EXCALIBUR
excalibur-logger-1.0.jar EXCALIBUR
logkit-1.2.jar EXCALIBUR
excalibur-thread-1.0.jar EXCALIBUR
excalibur-datasource-1.0.jar EXCALIBUR
excalibur-baxter-1.0a.jar DEAD
excalibur-containerkit-1.0.jar DEAD
excalibur-configuration-1.0.jar DEPRICATED
excalibur-instrument-0.1.jar NEVER RELEASED
excalibur-cli-1.0.jar REPLACE BY COMMONS CLI
excalibur-io-1.1.jar REPLACE BY COMMONS IO
cornerstone.jar UNRELEASED & UNREPODUCABLE
excalibur-concurrent-1.0.jar DEAD
excalibur-i18n-1.0.jar DEAD
phoenix-client.jar DEAD
excalibur-threadcontext-1.0.jar DEAD
excalibur-collections-1.0.jar DEAD
excalibur-extension-1.0a.jar DEAD
excalibur-util-1.0.jar DEAD
phoenix-bsh-commands.jar DEAD
The above list is actually really interesting because it was a subject
at the center of the first "critical drama" between the Chair, members
of the board, and activate Avalon committers. The active committer
community objected to the transfer of dead code from cvs to svn, arguing
that the Avalon svn should contain the active alive code. Irrespective
of the validity of this opinion - members of the board actively
encouraged Aaron to ignore any PMC opinion and take an "executive"
decision. In my mind (and I'm not alone) this was the start of a
fallout between the chair, certain members of the board, and members of
the Avalon development community.
Stephen.
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Serge Knystautas <se...@lokitech.com>.
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> Smoke and Mirrors - isn't there a passage in the New Testament with
> something about sin and stones ? And it's amazing how high the political ....
> can stack without smell. But, anyway, that is history so let's move on with
> our lives - after all, the only ones who really got hurt were the Avalon
> users, and the ASF establishment have already declared that they are not
> important.
I've tried to stay out of this thread(s), but I just have to say, "give
me a break." James was one of Avalon's most visible users, and I simply
cannot stand to hear someone from Avalon criticize the ASF establishment
about the treatment of Avalon users.
Avalon tried to do something huge and revolutionary at the time, had
plenty of good intentions, mix of results, mix of personalities,
changing visions, changing goals. It's a long, complicated story.
But nobody in this matter (inside or outside Avalon) had bad intentions,
and don't for a minute act like you did while others didn't. Give me a
break. (IMHO, Aaron did a fantastic job dealing with a challenging
situation.)
--
Serge Knystautas
Lokitech >> software . strategy . design >> http://www.lokitech.com
p. 301.656.5501
e. sergek@lokitech.com
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
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Niclas Hedhman wrote:
>
> Smoke and Mirrors
Not at all. Stephen was incorrect, and I was providing the
correction. I passed no judgement about whether any of the
decisions were the right ones, only stated that they were valid.
- --
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@4quarters.com>.
On Dec 17, 2004, at 10:35 AM, Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:
>
>
> Comments in [] by me, with apologies to Bryan Ferry and Roxy Music.
You just ruined this for me - I really liked that song, and I really
hate this whole Avalon thing.
>
> Now, can we please lay this thread to rest? What good is it for? Just
> to
> prove "I was right"?
+1
>
> Regards
> Henning
>
> (This was meant to be a funny/ironic comment. Come on, these lyrics are
> more than twenty years old... )
>
> --
> Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen INTERMETA GmbH
> hps@intermeta.de +49 9131 50 654 0 http://www.intermeta.de/
>
> RedHat Certified Engineer -- Jakarta Turbine Development -- hero for
> hire
> Linux, Java, perl, Solaris -- Consulting, Training, Development
>
> "Fighting for one's political stand is an honorable action, but re-
> fusing to acknowledge that there might be weaknesses in one's
> position - in order to identify them so that they can be remedied -
> is a large enough problem with the Open Source movement that it
> deserves to be on this list of the top five problems."
> --Michelle Levesque, "Fundamental Issues with
> Open Source Software Development"
>
>
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>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geir@gluecode.com
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Henning Schmiedehausen <hp...@intermeta.de>.
Now the party´s over
I´m so tired
[ ... as probably everyone else here ...]
Then I see you coming
Out of nowhere
[ ... Is this you, Stephen? ... ]
Much communication in a motion
Without conversation or a notion
[... Yep ...]
Avalon
When the samba takes you
Out of nowhere
And the background’s fading
Out of focus
Yes the picture changing
Every moment
[... Yep ...]
And your destination
You don´t know it
[... That guy must be a clairvoyant...]
Avalon
When you bossa nova
There´s no holding
Would you have me dancing
Out of nowhere
Avalon
Comments in [] by me, with apologies to Bryan Ferry and Roxy Music.
Now, can we please lay this thread to rest? What good is it for? Just to
prove "I was right"?
Regards
Henning
(This was meant to be a funny/ironic comment. Come on, these lyrics are
more than twenty years old... )
--
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen INTERMETA GmbH
hps@intermeta.de +49 9131 50 654 0 http://www.intermeta.de/
RedHat Certified Engineer -- Jakarta Turbine Development -- hero for hire
Linux, Java, perl, Solaris -- Consulting, Training, Development
"Fighting for one's political stand is an honorable action, but re-
fusing to acknowledge that there might be weaknesses in one's
position - in order to identify them so that they can be remedied -
is a large enough problem with the Open Source movement that it
deserves to be on this list of the top five problems."
--Michelle Levesque, "Fundamental Issues with
Open Source Software Development"
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
J Aaron Farr wrote:
...
> The thing is, and the reason for sharing this with the community, is
> that PMC's and communities need to watch out for this sort of thing in
> your own community. Don't wait for the situation to get critical. PMCs
> and PMC Chairs can intervene and should rather than watch a community
> tear itself apart.
I was an Avalon PMC Chair that had to deal with these issues, and what
happened back then - that is two years ago - is remarkably similar to
what has happened till Avalon's closure.
If I were in the same position now, I would have been more resolute in
pushing the community split. Time and non-intervention have only
perpetuated problems, if not made them worse. As the saying goes, "You
can bring a horse to water, but you can't make him drink".
> So, to answer Stephen's question, communities are most important in the
> decision process, but individuals need to step up and step in when a
> community breaks down.
+1
I can't agree more.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by J Aaron Farr <fa...@apache.org>.
William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
>> * Within our decision processes, what do you think is more
>> important - the community or the individual?
>
>
> The community. Individuals participate, but the distinction
> between an ASF project and a, say, sourceforge project, is that
> the ASF project is more than one individual. One hopes they
> survive the departure of any given individual, or the influnces
> of one specific individual
>
> Sadly, that doesn't always happen.
Also, the ASF has established PMCs and PMC Chairs so that when a
community breaks down, there is someone to step in and take
responsibility. This can happen because a community does not properly
handle legal issues or because of severe disharmony which distrupts the
community.
What Stephen is trying to get at is that he believes that the community
was completely behind the "Single Avalon Platform" initiative and that I
disagreed and as PMC Chair recommended the shutdown of Avalon, thus
allowing one individual to trump the will of the community.
However, this isn't a very accurate view of what happened.
The community was not 100% behind the Single Avalon Platform, more
specifically, we weren't behind the manner in which the Merlin
programmers wished to implement this initiative. Stephen didn't really
care that others didn't agree and moved ahead anyway. Eventually,
enough people got sick and tired of this behavior that rather than
fight, they left, i.e.- consensus by attrition. What this means is that
a few months after the initial vote, there were really only one or two
of us left who didn't agree with Stephen's vision. So now Stephen can
say, "well, hey, the whole community agrees with me, what's your
problem?" Of course, all that really happened was that the Merlin team
highjacked Avalon.
In their defense, all the Merlin developers ever wanted was a place to
call home. They wanted their own project space to develop in peace. I
don't think anyone, intially, had nefarious plans. But the project
started in Avalon and that's where it grew until it got so big it
started to eclipse the original Avalon project.
What should have happened was to allow the Merlin project to grow
somewhere outside of Avalon. But breaking up is hard to do, so no one
really wanted to kick Merlin out and we all thought we could work things
out within Avalon. However, we should have moved it to the Incubator
instead of incubating it within Avalon. By the time we realized Merlin
should be separated from Avalon, the Merlin developers wanted their own
TLP and felt incubation would be some sort of punishment or demotion.
Merlin never became a TLP for a couple of reasons. One, not everyone
understood the need and the technical differences between Merlin and
Avalon/Excalibur. Particularly, not everyone was convinced we needed
both Merlin _and_ Avalon or Merlin _and_ Excalibur.
Additionally we have the fact that even at this point, Merlin was mostly
a one or two man show. And one of those developers, Stephen, had a
history (right or wrong) of causing contention. The Merlin team had
shown they could develop great software, but not that they could develop
a community which espoused the principles of the ASF. Moreover, they
weren't really interested in compromising. It was a TLP or nothing at
all. Add these all up and we can see why the Board was leary of a
Merlin TLP.
Eventually, everyone lost patience and the situation broke down. Merlin
forked to become Metro outside of the ASF and I recommended the shutdown
of Avalon. Stephen feels I didn't follow proper procedures and tries to
paint me as disloyal to the Avalon community and a puppet of Board
members bent on destroying him. That' fine. I can understand that
Stephen doesn't love me right now. I'm not losing sleep over it.
The thing is, and the reason for sharing this with the community, is
that PMC's and communities need to watch out for this sort of thing in
your own community. Don't wait for the situation to get critical. PMCs
and PMC Chairs can intervene and should rather than watch a community
tear itself apart.
So, to answer Stephen's question, communities are most important in the
decision process, but individuals need to step up and step in when a
community breaks down.
jaaron
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Re: Requesting clarification in ByLaw text.
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 20:48, Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> This whole episode is also marred by "Project ByLaw", which I have been
> told does not to exist (or do they? confusion!), yet is mentioned that the
> PMC is
Sorry, I missed a few words here. Should be;
... yet is mentioned in the Board Resolution forming Avalon, that the PMC
is...
--
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/ http://niclas.hedhman.org /
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Re: Requesting clarification in ByLaw text.
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
At 01:39 AM 12/22/2004, Niclas Hedhman wrote:
>On Wednesday 22 December 2004 15:27, Greg Stein wrote:
>> FWIW, I liked your phrase in another email about renaming the "PMC
>> Bylaws" to something like "Standard Operating Rules" or somesuch. Tho
>> my personal opinion is to just lose them and have one set of rules for
>> all ASF PMCs.
>
>That would make *me* really happy and worthwhile, because until a few days
>ago, I was under the impression that there were bearing to the "PMC Bylaws".
>
>I give you the ones I can find;
>
>http://ant.apache.org/bylaws.html
>http://cocoon.apache.org/2.1/bylaws-addendum.html
>http://gump.apache.org/bylaws.html
>http://logging.apache.org/site/bylaws.html
>http://struts.apache.org/bylaws.html
>http://wiki.apache.org/excalibur/Bylaws
In httpd we call such things 'Guidelines' and you can find them here;
http://httpd.apache.org/dev/guidelines.html
We used to have 'rules' but that was before the "Apache Group"
(essentially, httpd project) evolved into the ASF corporate
entity.
Bill
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Re: Requesting clarification in ByLaw text.
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Wednesday 22 December 2004 15:27, Greg Stein wrote:
> FWIW, I liked your phrase in another email about renaming the "PMC
> Bylaws" to something like "Standard Operating Rules" or somesuch. Tho
> my personal opinion is to just lose them and have one set of rules for
> all ASF PMCs.
That would make *me* really happy and worthwhile, because until a few days
ago, I was under the impression that there were bearing to the "PMC Bylaws".
I give you the ones I can find;
http://ant.apache.org/bylaws.html
http://cocoon.apache.org/2.1/bylaws-addendum.html
http://gump.apache.org/bylaws.html
http://logging.apache.org/site/bylaws.html
http://struts.apache.org/bylaws.html
http://wiki.apache.org/excalibur/Bylaws
Cheers
Niclas
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Re: Requesting clarification in ByLaw text.
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Greg Stein wrote:
...
> The HTTPD PMC never consults any "Bylaws". We don't really have
> them. We simply use the standard ASF voting rules used on any dev
> list. We know how to build consensus and we operate that way. There
> are *very* few cases where we call a vote to *force* a direction.
> Votes are used to examine whether consensus is present, rather than
> to make a decision. We had a long discussion on the PMC a few weeks
> ago where we stopped and called a vote. But that was mostly to try
> and figure out what the various opinions were -- to clarify things.
> The vote results didn't actually "stick". In the end, the group
> came up with a rough consensus and turned that over to Sander (the
> Chair) to take action with.
>
> Now, let me contrast that with behavior that I observed in the
> Avalon PMC. On many occasions, there were fractures in the
> consensus, so a vote was used to *force* a decision. "But we voted
> on it" was the refrain. Yah, great. The result wasn't a consensus,
> merely a vote result. With a true consensus, some few will agree to
> abide with the majority opinion. They know they're the odd person
> out, but respect the others and agree to back off. This didn't
> happen often in Avalon; the minority felt pushed around and
> disenfranchised and alienated. Eventually, they just left. The use
> of votes was a mechanism for forcing a direction. All that was
> needed was one more vote than the "other position", and people felt
> they had a mandate. Bleh. They just had a majority vote.
Exactly.
In fact our "voting" doc is called "Consensus Gauging through Voting".
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
...
> FWIW, I liked your phrase in another email about renaming the "PMC
> Bylaws" to something like "Standard Operating Rules" or somesuch. Tho
> my personal opinion is to just lose them and have one set of rules for
> all ASF PMCs. We haven't done that in the past because the idea has
> always been to let the PMCs figure out what is best for their
> community, rather than to the Board (i.e. the ASF) mandate a
> particular set of rules.
At Forrest we decided to try and do the above, and David Crossley has
been of great help in taking Stefano's and other Apache documents and
putting them in a more coherent manner:
http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html
http://www.apache.org/dev/
(Trying to make these endless clarification and discussion threads into
something more constructive)
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: Requesting clarification in ByLaw text.
Posted by robert burrell donkin <rd...@apache.org>.
On 22 Dec 2004, at 07:27, Greg Stein wrote:
<snip>
> FWIW, I liked your phrase in another email about renaming the "PMC
> Bylaws" to something like "Standard Operating Rules" or somesuch. Tho
> my personal opinion is to just lose them and have one set of rules for
> all ASF PMCs. We haven't done that in the past because the idea has
> always been to let the PMCs figure out what is best for their
> community, rather than to the Board (i.e. the ASF) mandate a
> particular set of rules.
+1
in addition, i suggest that communities be allowed documented
deviations by consensus.
in other words, the standard operating rules are there provided as
defaults by the board by not mandated. individual communities with
strong opinions or different needs would be allowed to agree and
document deviations from them. IMHO this would offer the best of both
worlds: new pmc's (or those just trying to discover a good model) would
follow the standard operating procedures (by default) whereas any
(healthy) pmc's who want to deviate from this model would be allowed to
do this provided that these deviations are documented.
- robert
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Re: Requesting clarification in ByLaw text.
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Tue, Dec 21, 2004 at 08:48:59PM +0800, Niclas Hedhman wrote:
>...
> Now, section 6.3 in the ByLaws of the ASF doesn't rhyme entirely correctly
> with the quotes from the IRC session.
>
> You said; The PMC is an artificial construct.
> Section 6.3 forgets to mention that.
In essence, the PMC is constructed by the Chair. The Chair defines how
the PMC is gathered and its rules and policies. There is nothing in
the ASF Bylaws that specify any of that stuff. Just that there will be
a committee.
The further connotation is that "it isn't real". To some extent, it
really isn't since the Chair is free to change it as necessary.
So. Take to the extreme, a PMC is ephemeral. But as I pointed out
before, the Board has expectations of how a PMC is organized and run.
If the Chair gets too wonky, or plays too loose with it, then there
would be repercussions. My statement was merely an extrapolation to
the extreme. Not a statement of the typical.
> You said; Aaron IS the PMC.
> Section 6.3 uses the wording "shall be primarily responsible for project(s)
> managed by such committee"
As I said in my other note, that phrase was from the point of view of
the Board. The Board doesn't deal with the PMC as a whole. When we
want to talk to the PMC, we talk to the Chair.
> IANAL, and is not comfortable in trying to make the Section 6.3 clearer, but I
> beg those who a. understand the mechanics properly, b. capable of formulating
> the language, c. has the authority to do so, to re-phrase into a more
> accurate depictment of the PMC, its Chair vs its members.
>
> I mean, if the PMC is purely advisory, then write that.
As mentioned above, when taken to the extreme, yes: it can be viewed
as advisory. But that is not the *typical* situation. The typical is a
consensus-run committee and the Chair is simply a normal voter. In
healthy PMCs, you hardly ever notice that one of the people happens to
have a funky "VP" behind his name. It really only surfaces when the
Chair asks for assistance with putting together the quarterly reports
to the Board.
> This whole episode is also marred by "Project ByLaw", which I have been told
> does not to exist (or do they? confusion!), yet is mentioned that the PMC is
> tasked to establish them.
Yah. It's a poor choice of wording since it leads to confusion with
the ASF Bylaws. And it also connotes that they are the ultimate law,
when (as Ken notes), they cannot actually countermand the directives
of the Board or the restrictions of the ASF Bylaws.
We have discussed on a number of occasions that we'd like to create a
single set of "PMC Bylaws" which would apply to *all* PMCs, and then
strike that text from the boilerplate TLP creation. Instead, we'd just
have some docco on "here is how an ASF PMC normally operates".
> And those established at Avalon seems partly being
> contradictory to what Greg says (which I take as most authorative at this
> juncture).
I'm unclear on this part, so I'm not sure how to explain. By
contradictory, do you mean their existence should not have happened?
Assuming that was your point... no, they're fine. Many PMCs have
explicit "Bylaws" which describe how the PMC operates. But there are a
few issues with that:
1) as mentioned above, they are not the ultimate law
2) the term Bylaws can be confusing
3) in a properly functioning PMC, they are irrelevant (*)
So their presence can be helpful to describe to newcomers how things
work, but they need to be viewed in the proper context (and that
description is typically lacking).
(*) When I say irrelevant, let me describe a case in point:
The HTTPD PMC never consults any "Bylaws". We don't really have
them. We simply use the standard ASF voting rules used on any dev
list. We know how to build consensus and we operate that way. There
are *very* few cases where we call a vote to *force* a direction.
Votes are used to examine whether consensus is present, rather than
to make a decision. We had a long discussion on the PMC a few weeks
ago where we stopped and called a vote. But that was mostly to try
and figure out what the various opinions were -- to clarify things.
The vote results didn't actually "stick". In the end, the group
came up with a rough consensus and turned that over to Sander (the
Chair) to take action with.
Now, let me contrast that with behavior that I observed in the
Avalon PMC. On many occasions, there were fractures in the
consensus, so a vote was used to *force* a decision. "But we voted
on it" was the refrain. Yah, great. The result wasn't a consensus,
merely a vote result. With a true consensus, some few will agree to
abide with the majority opinion. They know they're the odd person
out, but respect the others and agree to back off. This didn't
happen often in Avalon; the minority felt pushed around and
disenfranchised and alienated. Eventually, they just left. The use
of votes was a mechanism for forcing a direction. All that was
needed was one more vote than the "other position", and people felt
they had a mandate. Bleh. They just had a majority vote.
> Avalon bylaws are now no longer online, but let's look at an example of
> contradiction in the Excalibur TLP bylaws, passed by their PMC [1];
>
> http://wiki.apache.org/excalibur/Bylaws
>
> Under 1.2.2.4 Project Management Committee, first paragraph, second sentence;
> <quote>
> The PMC is responsible to the board and the ASF for the management and
> oversight of the Apache Excalibur codebase.
> </quote>
>
> Well, apparently the PMC is not responsible and not authorative, only the PMC
> Chair.
In the strictest sense, yes. But in the everyday sense? No.
IOW, for all intents and purposes, it *is* the PMC. But when push
comes to shove and the PMC is fucking up, then the Chair has to do
whatever is necessary to act in the best interests of the ASF.
> IMHO, these types of discrepancies are the true root of this thread. And
> instead of dismissing everything from my mouth at sight and being sick of me
> dragging this on, please take a moment and review my findings and move for a
> clarification of the PMC role (and the Chair), its responsibility and
> authority, and make that in writing to avoid any future misunderstandings
> elsewhere. And in the same go, ask the PMCs to review their "PMC Bylaws" (if
> they exist) whether they are in conflict with this clarified view.
As I mentioned, in the typical case, they are totally fine. Avalon ran
into a set of extreme situations, and my points [in IRC and other
places] were made to demonstrate where the buck *really* stopped. And
with that, to let Aaron know that he had the right and responsibility
to do what is necessary rather than continue to get hamstrung by a
defective PMC membership. When you look at the wording in the Bylaws,
there is nothing that prevents a Chair from saying "my PMC will have
no members. I will be the sole decision maker." That Chair better have
good reasons for that, but it *is* possible.
On one occasion during the summer, the Board told one of the VPs
something along the lines of, "stop asking us to make your decisions.
we put *you* in charge to do this. so go do it." The VPs are officers
of the corporation, in every sense of the word in US corporate law.
When things go to shit, they have incredible leeway (and the
responsibility!) to make things right. But please don't confuse the
typical from the atypical. If a VP was running rampant without due
cause, then they wouldn't be a VP for long :-)
FWIW, I liked your phrase in another email about renaming the "PMC
Bylaws" to something like "Standard Operating Rules" or somesuch. Tho
my personal opinion is to just lose them and have one set of rules for
all ASF PMCs. We haven't done that in the past because the idea has
always been to let the PMCs figure out what is best for their
community, rather than to the Board (i.e. the ASF) mandate a
particular set of rules.
I hope that clarifies things.
Cheers,
-g
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Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
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Requesting clarification in ByLaw text.
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 17:03, Greg Stein wrote:
> > (12:10:11) gstein: mcconnell: aaron *is* the PMC
> > ((12:46:05) gstein: the members of the PMC is an artificial construct
> > created by the Chair
> You lost a lot of context there.
Ok, agree, but I thought it being unnecessary to quote 71kB of IRC. ;o)
And now I lost some more ;o)
> And yes, the Chair defines the rules/procedures. And when they fail to
> keep the project and community on track, then the Chair can change the
> rules. Simple as that.
> There have certainly been insinuations in this thread and others that
> my positions or stances are "part of the problem." You're certainly
> entitled to that point of view, but I'm similarly confident that I
> have been acting in the best interests of the ASF in this matter, and
> that I have the support of the Membership.
Sure you have. You definately have *my* support (although not worth much,
maybe a even negative worth) as Chairman of ASF.
Now, section 6.3 in the ByLaws of the ASF doesn't rhyme entirely correctly
with the quotes from the IRC session.
You said; The PMC is an artificial construct.
Section 6.3 forgets to mention that.
You said; Aaron IS the PMC.
Section 6.3 uses the wording "shall be primarily responsible for project(s)
managed by such committee"
IANAL, and is not comfortable in trying to make the Section 6.3 clearer, but I
beg those who a. understand the mechanics properly, b. capable of formulating
the language, c. has the authority to do so, to re-phrase into a more
accurate depictment of the PMC, its Chair vs its members.
I mean, if the PMC is purely advisory, then write that.
This whole episode is also marred by "Project ByLaw", which I have been told
does not to exist (or do they? confusion!), yet is mentioned that the PMC is
tasked to establish them. And those established at Avalon seems partly being
contradictory to what Greg says (which I take as most authorative at this
juncture).
Avalon bylaws are now no longer online, but let's look at an example of
contradiction in the Excalibur TLP bylaws, passed by their PMC [1];
http://wiki.apache.org/excalibur/Bylaws
Under 1.2.2.4 Project Management Committee, first paragraph, second sentence;
<quote>
The PMC is responsible to the board and the ASF for the management and
oversight of the Apache Excalibur codebase.
</quote>
Well, apparently the PMC is not responsible and not authorative, only the PMC
Chair.
IMHO, these types of discrepancies are the true root of this thread. And
instead of dismissing everything from my mouth at sight and being sick of me
dragging this on, please take a moment and review my findings and move for a
clarification of the PMC role (and the Chair), its responsibility and
authority, and make that in writing to avoid any future misunderstandings
elsewhere. And in the same go, ask the PMCs to review their "PMC Bylaws" (if
they exist) whether they are in conflict with this clarified view.
Cheers
Niclas
[1]
http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/ReadMsg?listName=dev@excalibur.apache.org&msgNo=698
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Tue, Dec 21, 2004 at 11:43:14AM +0800, Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> On Tuesday 21 December 2004 11:19, Stephen McConnell wrote:
> > Greg holds to the
> > opinion that the appointed Chair is the PMC and that the members are
> > simply an artificial construct.
>
> Before anyone is requesting the quote where Steve get that notion from;
> http://www.apache.org/~niclas/irc/2004-05-15.022554.txt
>
> which is an IRC session regarding the fork/transfer/something of Phoenix to
> James, via an SVN import into Avalon's SVN space. Everyone is aware that this
> IRC session is logged and available to the public (before people hammer for
> that.).
>
> Following quotes from Greg Stein (and one McConnell);
> (12:10:11) gstein: mcconnell: aaron *is* the PMC
> ((12:46:05) gstein: the members of the PMC is an artificial construct created
> by the Chair
> 12:48:15) gstein: mcconnell: the board expects a PMC to operate in a consensus
> fashion,
> (12:48:38) gstein: but when a PMC *cannot* operate in a consensus fashion,
> then the Board leaves it to the Chair to figure out the right solution.
> (12:52:47) gstein: if Aaron wants to ask the PMC, then he can.
> (12:57:17) mcconnell: then don't ask aaron for an opinion because aaron has
> not talked with his PMC MEMBERS
> (12:57:29) gstein: mcconnell: doesn't matter to me. that's up to him.
>
>
> In my personal opinion that also seems to suggest that committer and/or PMC
> vetoes are also of no interest. The PMC Chair is an ultimate decision maker
> (at least in the view of Greg), who from time to time decides how to deal
> with disagreements.
You lost a lot of context there. The main thing: I was speaking from
the position of the Board/Director/Chairman. Doesn't matter to me what
is "on the other side of Aaron". From the Board's standpoint, it's all
about Aaron.
And yes, the Chair defines the rules/procedures. And when they fail to
keep the project and community on track, then the Chair can change the
rules. Simple as that.
The Chair is an officer of the corporation in charge of some of our
assets and in charge of the community which cares for those assets. We
expect that officer to look out for the best interests of the ASF. And
if that requires a hard call, then so be it. We *expect* a
consensus-based approach, but when that doesn't work or it fails in
some way, then we *expect* that the Chair will solve it. If a Chair
runs rampantly against either of those expectations, then the Board
will deal with it. That certainly wasn't the case here. Aaron did
well, and I fully support his actions, both personally as a developer
and an ASF Member, and also as a Director of the Board and Chairman of
the ASF.
There have certainly been insinuations in this thread and others that
my positions or stances are "part of the problem." You're certainly
entitled to that point of view, but I'm similarly confident that I
have been acting in the best interests of the ASF in this matter, and
that I have the support of the Membership. I may not have unanimous
support, and I certainly don't in all matters, but in this regard, I
feel pretty good that I've been representing the Members (and, thus,
the ASF) properly.
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org>.
On Tue, 21 Dec 2004, Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> The PMC Chair is an ultimate decision maker
Please check the bylaws for the normal situation.
But -WHEN- things break down, when there is no consensus and there is no
clear ability to reach any conclusion and it is in the interest of the
foundation because damage is done then the board expects the chair to act
as an officer of the foundation and clean things up. Note that at this
point the board has already been made well aware of the sitution and is
actively monitoring the chair.
Note that at -every- step in that process anyone can appeal to the board
to bring things to our attention, to get us to suspend things, replace the
chair, whatever. And you can count on us to act very swiftly and without
hesitation is truly damaging things are happening which affect the ASF as
a whole (say when knowingly shipping code without a license). However be
warned that in most cases our only options are effectively to suspend the
entire project.
In the Avalon case we did no such drastic things but waited for months
(well years really) for the community to get a grip, consensus.
Dw
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 11:19, Stephen McConnell wrote:
> Greg holds to the
> opinion that the appointed Chair is the PMC and that the members are
> simply an artificial construct.
Before anyone is requesting the quote where Steve get that notion from;
http://www.apache.org/~niclas/irc/2004-05-15.022554.txt
which is an IRC session regarding the fork/transfer/something of Phoenix to
James, via an SVN import into Avalon's SVN space. Everyone is aware that this
IRC session is logged and available to the public (before people hammer for
that.).
Following quotes from Greg Stein (and one McConnell);
(12:10:11) gstein: mcconnell: aaron *is* the PMC
((12:46:05) gstein: the members of the PMC is an artificial construct created
by the Chair
12:48:15) gstein: mcconnell: the board expects a PMC to operate in a consensus
fashion,
(12:48:38) gstein: but when a PMC *cannot* operate in a consensus fashion,
then the Board leaves it to the Chair to figure out the right solution.
(12:52:47) gstein: if Aaron wants to ask the PMC, then he can.
(12:57:17) mcconnell: then don't ask aaron for an opinion because aaron has
not talked with his PMC MEMBERS
(12:57:29) gstein: mcconnell: doesn't matter to me. that's up to him.
In my personal opinion that also seems to suggest that committer and/or PMC
vetoes are also of no interest. The PMC Chair is an ultimate decision maker
(at least in the view of Greg), who from time to time decides how to deal
with disagreements.
Cheers
Niclas
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Tue, Dec 21, 2004 at 07:21:09AM +0100, Stephen McConnell wrote:
>...
> > > a committee should have the ability to remove a chair
> >
> > The PMC lacks the authority to do so.
>
> Which is why it was presented as a recommendation! Do you see an
> inherent problem with the notion of a Chair accountable to the
> committee?
It would not establish the necessary paths of responsibility and
oversight necessary for the proper and legal operation of the ASf.
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
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RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:noel@devtech.com]
> Sent: 21 December 2004 05:30
> To: community@apache.org
> Subject: RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
>
> Stephen McConnell wrote:
>
> > William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
> > > Stephen McConnell wrote:
> > > > * What do you think is the role of a PMC in our decision
> > > > making process?
> > > They have absolute decision making process within the board's
> > > mandate for their project.
>
> > According to Greg Stein this should not be the case. Greg holds to
the
> > opinion that the appointed Chair is the PMC and that the members are
> > simply an artificial construct.
>
> > I should point out that Greg's position seems to contradict section
6.3
> > of the bylaws in that it is stated that a PMC is a committee with a
> > designated chairman. The bylaws also seem to clearly state that the
> > committee is responsible for active management.
>
> Actually, it says that the that the PMC shall consist of at least one
> officer of the corporation, who shall be designated the PMC Chair, and
who
> "shall be primarily responsible for project(s) managed by such
committee,
> and he or she shall establish rules and procedures for the day to day
> management of project(s) for which the committee is responsible."
And as a PMC Member you would be completely familiar with the rules and
procedures of the day to day management.
http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/avalon/site/central/community/process/pm
c/procedures.html
> > [The PMC Chair] actively and publicly took actions without
consulting
> > the Avalon PMC and on at least one occasion justified this on the
> > grounds that the PMC would not agree with his position.
>
> Aaron consulted with the PMC on every occasion that I can recall.
Interestingly - you were actually there when he said that!
> In the
> case of migrating Phoenix to SVN, you can hardly claim that he made a
> unilateral decision. Probably more than anyone, I am the resident
> pain-in-arse about preserving ALL history, which I consider a
corporate
> asset. And I am absolutely unapologetic about
>
> > a) the lack of accountability of the Chair towards the committee
> > b) the reluctance of the Board to properly recognize the PMC as
> > the responsible entity
>
> You raised similar issues in the past. If it comes down to it, the
> Membership owns the Foundation. The Foundation is run for the Public
Good
> as best we can, and those who demonstrate merit are invited to become
> Members, Officers and Directors.
If this is the best that the foundation can do or is this the simpler
scenario of an organization incapable of looking at the facts and asking
itself if it couldn't do better?
> > a committee should have the ability to remove a chair
>
> The PMC lacks the authority to do so.
Which is why it was presented as a recommendation! Do you see an
inherent problem with the notion of a Chair accountable to the
committee?
Stephen.
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RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Stephen McConnell wrote:
> William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
> > Stephen McConnell wrote:
> > > * What do you think is the role of a PMC in our decision
> > > making process?
> > They have absolute decision making process within the board's
> > mandate for their project.
> According to Greg Stein this should not be the case. Greg holds to the
> opinion that the appointed Chair is the PMC and that the members are
> simply an artificial construct.
> I should point out that Greg's position seems to contradict section 6.3
> of the bylaws in that it is stated that a PMC is a committee with a
> designated chairman. The bylaws also seem to clearly state that the
> committee is responsible for active management.
Actually, it says that the that the PMC shall consist of at least one
officer of the corporation, who shall be designated the PMC Chair, and who
"shall be primarily responsible for project(s) managed by such committee,
and he or she shall establish rules and procedures for the day to day
management of project(s) for which the committee is responsible."
> [The PMC Chair] actively and publicly took actions without consulting
> the Avalon PMC and on at least one occasion justified this on the
> grounds that the PMC would not agree with his position.
Aaron consulted with the PMC on every occasion that I can recall. In the
case of migrating Phoenix to SVN, you can hardly claim that he made a
unilateral decision. Probably more than anyone, I am the resident
pain-in-arse about preserving ALL history, which I consider a corporate
asset. And I am absolutely unapologetic about
> a) the lack of accountability of the Chair towards the committee
> b) the reluctance of the Board to properly recognize the PMC as
> the responsible entity
You raised similar issues in the past. If it comes down to it, the
Membership owns the Foundation. The Foundation is run for the Public Good
as best we can, and those who demonstrate merit are invited to become
Members, Officers and Directors.
> a committee should have the ability to remove a chair
The PMC lacks the authority to do so. Rather, the Chair has the authority
to remove members of the PMC. The Chair does not report to the Committee.
The Chair reports to the Board and ultimately to the Membership.
--- Noel
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RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: William A. Rowe, Jr. [mailto:wrowe@rowe-clan.net]
> Sent: 17 December 2004 08:42
> To: community@apache.org
> Cc: community@apache.org
> Subject: RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
>
> At 08:30 PM 12/16/2004, Stephen McConnell wrote:
>
> >Concerning our decision making processes, I have a couple of
> >questions...
> >
> > * What do you think is the role of a PMC in our decision
> > making process?
>
> They have absolute decision making process within the board's
> mandate for their project.
Bill:
According to Greg Stein this should not be the case. Greg holds to the
opinion that the appointed Chair is the PMC and that the members are
simply an artificial construct.
I should point out that Greg's position seems to contradict section 6.3
of the bylaws in that it is stated that a PMC is a committee with a
designated chairman. The bylaws also seem to clearly state that the
committee is responsible for active management.
In the Avalon case-study the Chair largely ignored the notion of
committee responsibility and chose instead to exercise privileges
related to the role of officer of the foundation. In doing so he
actively and publicly took actions without consulting the Avalon PMC and
on at least one occasion justified this on the grounds that the PMC
would not agree with his position.
IMO there are two related issues here:
a) the lack of accountability of the Chair towards the committee
b) the reluctance of the Board to properly recognize the PMC as the
responsible entity
I think that there are practices that can be adopted to address these
issues. For example a committee should have the ability to remove a
chair (for example via a vote of no-confidence) and such an action
should be recognized as within the authority of the committee.
Stephen.
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RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
At 08:30 PM 12/16/2004, Stephen McConnell wrote:
>Concerning our decision making processes, I have a couple of
>questions...
>
> * What do you think is the role of a PMC in our decision
> making process?
They have absolute decision making process within the board's
mandate for their project.
> * Within our decision processes, what do you think is more
> important - the community or the individual?
The community. Individuals participate, but the distinction
between an ASF project and a, say, sourceforge project, is that
the ASF project is more than one individual. One hopes they
survive the departure of any given individual, or the influnces
of one specific individual
Sadly, that doesn't always happen.
Bill
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RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Stephen McConnell wrote:
> * What do you think is the role of a PMC in our decision
> making process?
The PMC makes all binding decisions regarding a project. If the PMC fails
in that regard to the satisfaction of the Foundation's stakeholders, the
Board can, and will be expected to, take action.
> * Within our decision processes, what do you think is more
> important - the community or the individual?
Short answer: the community.
--- Noel
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RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:noel@devtech.com]
> Sent: 17 December 2004 03:09
> To: community@apache.org
> Subject: RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
>
> Stephen McConnell wrote:
>
> > When you say "and the two container factions that chose not to
> > participate with everyone else" you are implying and active choice?
> > Do you believe that the Avalon community was presented with a
> > choice?
>
> Yes to both. And multiple of each over extended periods of time.
>
> > Secondly, do you believe that the Metro project was established on
> > the premise of "non-participation" or was "pastures that permit such
> > behavior" just an unfortunate turn of phrase?
>
> My reference was to the choice by the Metro project to go elsewhere,
> where the leaders can make decisions without needing to cater to
> competing or conflicting voices from an established community, rather
> than to keep Metro within the ASF, and within the bounds of our
> decision making processes.
Thank you for that clarification.
Concerning our decision making processes, I have a couple of
questions...
* What do you think is the role of a PMC in our decision
making process?
* Within our decision processes, what do you think is more
important - the community or the individual?
Stephen.
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RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Stephen McConnell wrote:
> When you say "and the two container factions that chose not to
> participate with everyone else" you are implying and active
> choice? Do you believe that the Avalon community was
> presented with a choice?
Yes to both. And multiple of each over extended periods of time.
> Secondly, do you believe that the Metro project was established
> on the premise of "non-participation" or was "pastures that
> permit such behavior" just an unfortunate turn of phrase?
My reference was to the choice by the Metro project to go elsewhere, where
the leaders can make decisions without needing to cater to competing or
conflicting voices from an established community, rather than to keep Metro
within the ASF, and within the bounds of our decision making processes.
--- Noel
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RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:noel@devtech.com]
> Sent: 15 December 2004 23:11
> To: community@apache.org
> Subject: RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
>
> > the only ones who really got hurt were the Avalon users, and the ASF
> > establishment have already declared that they are not important.
>
> With the exception of Phoenix, which evolved externally as Loom, and
> Merlin, which decided to move away from the ASF, all of the Avalon
> code is still under ASF management in the Excalibur project. In
> effect, Avalon was renamed Excalibur, and the two container factions
> that chose not to participate with everyone else have left for
> pastures that permit such behavior.
Noel:
When you say "and the two container factions that chose not to
participate with everyone else" you are implying and active choice? Do
you believe that the Avalon community was presented with a choice?
Secondly, do you believe that the Metro project was established on the
premise of "non-participation" or was "pastures that permit such
behavior" just an unfortunate turn of phrase?
Stephen.
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RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> the only ones who really got hurt were the Avalon users,
> and the ASF establishment have already declared that
> they are not important.
With the exception of Phoenix, which evolved externally as Loom, and Merlin,
which decided to move away from the ASF, all of the Avalon code is still
under ASF management in the Excalibur project. In effect, Avalon was
renamed Excalibur, and the two container factions that chose not to
participate with everyone else have left for pastures that permit such
behavior.
Coincidentally, I came across yet another embedded use of Avalon this week.
Avalon is embedded in one of the third party portlets included with the IBM
WebSphere Portal Server.
--- Noel
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Thursday 16 December 2004 02:26, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
> So the PMC chair was perfectly within its authority to request that
> the board terminate the project. And from what I read on the Avalon
> lists, my clear impression is that the action had majority support
> within the project if not a consensus.
Smoke and Mirrors - isn't there a passage in the New Testament with
something about sin and stones ? And it's amazing how high the political ....
can stack without smell. But, anyway, that is history so let's move on with
our lives - after all, the only ones who really got hurt were the Avalon
users, and the ASF establishment have already declared that they are not
important.
Cheers
Niclas
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Stephen McConnell wrote:
>>
>> The Board had nothing to do with these directions or choices. Our only
>> (recent) involvment was that the VP in charge of Avalon asked us to
>> terminate the project, so we did.
>
> A board decision taken *without* the endorsement of the Avalon PMC,
> *without* a vote of the community and clearly in contradiction with the
> expressed interests of the committers at that time.
>
> Let's not try and rewrite history just yet.
Let's understand the factual basis of things first. A project
chair doesn't *have* to have endorsement from anyone else. It
is ultimately responsible for the project, and has the necessary
authority to do whatever is appropriate. The fact that most, if
not all, projects are led by consensus of the PMC, with the chairs
functioning essentially as peers, is a tribute to both the viability
of the structure and the abilities and understanding of the chairs
themselves.
So the PMC chair was perfectly within its authority to request that
the board terminate the project. And from what I read on the Avalon
lists, my clear impression is that the action had majority support
within the project if not a consensus.
- --
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@dpml.net>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Greg Stein [mailto:gstein@apache.org]
> Sent: 01 December 2004 03:58
> To: pmc@avalon.apache.org; dev@avalon.apache.org;
users@avalon.apache.org;
> board@apache.org; community@apache.org
> Subject: Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
>
> On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 02:26:43AM +0100, Stephen McConnell wrote:
> >...
> > The Avalon community established a PMC to represent the community
> > interests concerning the direction and administration of the Avalon
> > project.
>
> Um. No. The Apache Software Foundation established the PMC. Its
> purpose was to provide the necessary (legal) oversight of the
> development of the Avalon project. That oversight is/was necessary to
> establish the appropriate legal protection for the committers on the
> project and the ASF itself.
>
> It is the ASF that releases the Avalon code, not the committers. To do
> that properly, certain things need to be done for the benefit of all
> involved. You may disagree with some of those processes, their
> purpose, and how it was done, but that is simply too bad. They need to
> exist so that our users can properly trust the code we provide.
Greg:
My agreement on the subject of the process is already established (I
contributed to and voted in favor of the adoption of the process of
which we speak). What I disagree to is the actions of the Member of the
Board and the Chair in ignoring the decisions of the community and
ignoring the adopted processes established under the direction of the
board.
> > The community interests were clear - a single platform, one
> > specification, a cohesive solution.
>
> No, that was never clear. That was *your* desire, Stephen, and you did
> everything you could to steer things in that direction. You alienated
> people, you berated people, and you generally made things unpleasant
> for anybody that did not have your same "vision". Avalon went through
> many phases, and the "single platform" you mention was simply the last
> thing standing after your various escapades.
Greg - you are a chairman of the ASF. In this capacity you have an
obligation to at least to state the truth. This community voted on the
subject of Avalon direction. The decision of this community was to move
forward with a single platform. That was not the decision of an
individual - it was the decision of a community - a decision that you,
the other members of the board, and the chair chose to ignore.
> > That decision was not respected by
> > the outgoing chair nor the board of directors of the ASF.
>
> The Board had nothing to do with these directions or choices. Our only
> (recent) involvment was that the VP in charge of Avalon asked us to
> terminate the project, so we did.
A board decision taken *without* the endorsement of the Avalon PMC,
*without* a vote of the community and clearly in contradiction with the
expressed interests of the committers at that time.
Let's not try and rewrite history just yet.
Stephen.
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@apache.org>.
On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 02:26:43AM +0100, Stephen McConnell wrote:
>...
> The Avalon community established a PMC to represent the community
> interests concerning the direction and administration of the Avalon
> project.
Um. No. The Apache Software Foundation established the PMC. Its
purpose was to provide the necessary (legal) oversight of the
development of the Avalon project. That oversight is/was necessary to
establish the appropriate legal protection for the committers on the
project and the ASF itself.
It is the ASF that releases the Avalon code, not the committers. To do
that properly, certain things need to be done for the benefit of all
involved. You may disagree with some of those processes, their
purpose, and how it was done, but that is simply too bad. They need to
exist so that our users can properly trust the code we provide.
> The community interests were clear - a single platform, one
> specification, a cohesive solution.
No, that was never clear. That was *your* desire, Stephen, and you did
everything you could to steer things in that direction. You alienated
people, you berated people, and you generally made things unpleasant
for anybody that did not have your same "vision". Avalon went through
many phases, and the "single platform" you mention was simply the last
thing standing after your various escapades.
> That decision was not respected by
> the outgoing chair nor the board of directors of the ASF.
The Board had nothing to do with these directions or choices. Our only
(recent) involvment was that the VP in charge of Avalon asked us to
terminate the project, so we did.
Also recently, we directed the Avalon project to step up and deal with
the problems that it has had, and to take proper care of its legacy
users. But we did not specify any particular solutions. The PMC came
up with the solutions.
> That is not the definition of a job-well-done. Instead this is much
> more about the weakness of individuals - in particular the members of
> the board of directors of the ASF and not least of all our outgoing
> chain. However - there is much that can be learnt from this. The
> weaknesses of the BOD can be attributed to their collective
> unwillingness to confront members of their own board.
I have no idea what you're talking about here. The Board of Directors
of the Apache Software Foundation does not have or need any
"confrontation". As a group, we work together very, very well. In the
past three years or so that I've been on the Board, I can only recall
*two* votes that were not unanimous. We reach consensus very easily,
and it isn't because we beat some unnamed board member into
submission.
> The weakness of
> our Chair was more a question of his personal loyalty to the community.
I disagree. I very much respect what J Aaron Farr has done for Avalon.
You made it a rather difficult task, but he stepped up and dealt with
it. He didn't have to, but he did. And he did it because the community
needed somebody to deal with the issues.
Further, I think that he handled it very, very well. Some of the posts
that he has written shows great insight into why great communities are
needed here at Apache, and what makes a great community. He's shown
that he can also help to shape those communities, despite adversity
that was caused by certain folks. At times, he didn't take as much
action as I might have, but I fully believe that he had good reasons,
and I support the choices he made.
Aaron has my respect, and I hope he continues to be involved in other
Apache projects.
> Irrespective of the above obstacles a real and tangible alternative to
> ASF continues under http://www.dpml.net. The fundamental difference -
> no distinction between the people who contribute and the people who run
> the process.
You may not like the process, but the legal backing provided by the
ASF for the code that we release needs it. And in the end, our users
need that. You are certainly free to create a different model, but it
does mean the resulting code will not have the same kinds of
assurances the ASF provides, nor will you have an entity that can
assume legal liability for your results. It's your choice to make, and
for your users to decide whether that is important.
Cheers,
-g
--
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@apache.org>.
On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 02:26:43AM +0100, Stephen McConnell wrote:
>...
> The Avalon community established a PMC to represent the community
> interests concerning the direction and administration of the Avalon
> project.
Um. No. The Apache Software Foundation established the PMC. Its
purpose was to provide the necessary (legal) oversight of the
development of the Avalon project. That oversight is/was necessary to
establish the appropriate legal protection for the committers on the
project and the ASF itself.
It is the ASF that releases the Avalon code, not the committers. To do
that properly, certain things need to be done for the benefit of all
involved. You may disagree with some of those processes, their
purpose, and how it was done, but that is simply too bad. They need to
exist so that our users can properly trust the code we provide.
> The community interests were clear - a single platform, one
> specification, a cohesive solution.
No, that was never clear. That was *your* desire, Stephen, and you did
everything you could to steer things in that direction. You alienated
people, you berated people, and you generally made things unpleasant
for anybody that did not have your same "vision". Avalon went through
many phases, and the "single platform" you mention was simply the last
thing standing after your various escapades.
> That decision was not respected by
> the outgoing chair nor the board of directors of the ASF.
The Board had nothing to do with these directions or choices. Our only
(recent) involvment was that the VP in charge of Avalon asked us to
terminate the project, so we did.
Also recently, we directed the Avalon project to step up and deal with
the problems that it has had, and to take proper care of its legacy
users. But we did not specify any particular solutions. The PMC came
up with the solutions.
> That is not the definition of a job-well-done. Instead this is much
> more about the weakness of individuals - in particular the members of
> the board of directors of the ASF and not least of all our outgoing
> chain. However - there is much that can be learnt from this. The
> weaknesses of the BOD can be attributed to their collective
> unwillingness to confront members of their own board.
I have no idea what you're talking about here. The Board of Directors
of the Apache Software Foundation does not have or need any
"confrontation". As a group, we work together very, very well. In the
past three years or so that I've been on the Board, I can only recall
*two* votes that were not unanimous. We reach consensus very easily,
and it isn't because we beat some unnamed board member into
submission.
> The weakness of
> our Chair was more a question of his personal loyalty to the community.
I disagree. I very much respect what J Aaron Farr has done for Avalon.
You made it a rather difficult task, but he stepped up and dealt with
it. He didn't have to, but he did. And he did it because the community
needed somebody to deal with the issues.
Further, I think that he handled it very, very well. Some of the posts
that he has written shows great insight into why great communities are
needed here at Apache, and what makes a great community. He's shown
that he can also help to shape those communities, despite adversity
that was caused by certain folks. At times, he didn't take as much
action as I might have, but I fully believe that he had good reasons,
and I support the choices he made.
Aaron has my respect, and I hope he continues to be involved in other
Apache projects.
> Irrespective of the above obstacles a real and tangible alternative to
> ASF continues under http://www.dpml.net. The fundamental difference -
> no distinction between the people who contribute and the people who run
> the process.
You may not like the process, but the legal backing provided by the
ASF for the code that we release needs it. And in the end, our users
need that. You are certainly free to create a different model, but it
does mean the resulting code will not have the same kinds of
assurances the ASF provides, nor will you have an entity that can
assume legal liability for your results. It's your choice to make, and
for your users to decide whether that is important.
Cheers,
-g
--
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Henning Schmiedehausen <hp...@intermeta.de>.
On Tue, 2004-12-21 at 05:39, Craig McClanahan wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 05:31:03 +0100, Stephen McConnell
> <mc...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > OK - let's play this game but let's do it properly.
> >
>
> I've got a better idea ... let's not play the game (any more) at all.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086567/quotes#qt0077889
Can't agree more. Can we just lay this thread to rest? Stephen and
Niclas can open up www.avalonconspiracy.com and the rest goes on with
life.
Regards
Henning
--
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen INTERMETA GmbH
hps@intermeta.de +49 9131 50 654 0 http://www.intermeta.de/
RedHat Certified Engineer -- Jakarta Turbine Development -- hero for hire
Linux, Java, perl, Solaris -- Consulting, Training, Development
"Fighting for one's political stand is an honorable action, but re-
fusing to acknowledge that there might be weaknesses in one's
position - in order to identify them so that they can be remedied -
is a large enough problem with the Open Source movement that it
deserves to be on this list of the top five problems."
--Michelle Levesque, "Fundamental Issues with
Open Source Software Development"
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Le 21 déc. 04, à 08:21, Brian W. Fitzpatrick a écrit :
> Take it to alt.talk.wank for crissakes.
+1
-Bertrand
Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by "Brian W. Fitzpatrick" <fi...@red-bean.com>.
On Dec 20, 2004, at 10:39 PM, Craig McClanahan wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 05:31:03 +0100, Stephen McConnell
> <mc...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> OK - let's play this game but let's do it properly.
>>
>
> I've got a better idea ... let's not play the game (any more) at all.
>
> The decision was made (and I, as an Apache member, consider it to be
> in *my* best interest, as well as in the best interest of the ASF).
> It's done. It's over. It's now an off topic conversation for this
> list.
>
> If you guys had put the same amount of energy into your software that
> you put into your arguments, the world really would have been a better
> place as a result of your efforts.
A huge +1. If anyone taking part in this thread thinks they're going
to change anyone else's opinion about what happened around Avalon,
they're massively deluded.
Take it to alt.talk.wank for crissakes.
-Fitz
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Craig McClanahan wrote:
...
> If you guys had put the same amount of energy into your software that
> you put into your arguments, the world really would have been a better
> place as a result of your efforts.
+1 (@see my mantra below... what I want to accomplish,
what unfortunatly I still fail to do)
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Craig McClanahan <cr...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 05:31:03 +0100, Stephen McConnell
<mc...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> OK - let's play this game but let's do it properly.
>
I've got a better idea ... let's not play the game (any more) at all.
The decision was made (and I, as an Apache member, consider it to be
in *my* best interest, as well as in the best interest of the ASF).
It's done. It's over. It's now an off topic conversation for this
list.
If you guys had put the same amount of energy into your software that
you put into your arguments, the world really would have been a better
place as a result of your efforts.
Craig McClanahan
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 21:39, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
> (I don't see any new thread yet.)
Same thread, new Subject....
Subject = Requesting clarification in ByLaw text.
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
>
> BUT, I *would* appreciate if you spent some of your intellect looking at the
> more important stuff raised in this thread under new Subject.
(I don't see any new thread yet.) If the stuff is raised as hypothetical
issues, sure. I'll attempt to be critical and unbiased as I always try
(sometimes woefully unsuccessfully) to be.
> P.S. Every Sanagendamgagwedweinini on Google refers back to you. Is this some
> marker to all your doings on the web?
It's in my .sig and on my Web pages. AFAIK, no-one else ever uses that
word.
- --
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 20:59, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
> No, I don't think it was a single occurrence.
*I* only know of one such time, in conjunction with Leo Sutic resigning on the
basis of "People leaving because they don't agree with the majority opinion
is acceptable attrition".
> And there you go again with another highly charged term.
Everything else you call "hand waving". ;o)
> What's interesting is that *you're* the one
> that keeps associating Stephen's name with this stuff. The only time I
> mentioned him by name was when I was correcting the mistake about
> authority.
Come on, I somehow get the feeling that you are trying to toy me around with
your intellect and wit of words. I buy you a beer over that, no problem.
I won't drag this on, since you feel like the cat playing with the mouse, so
the mouse has now decided "eat me", and lays down in front of the cat,
awaiting it to loose interest ;o)
BUT, I *would* appreciate if you spent some of your intellect looking at the
more important stuff raised in this thread under new Subject.
Cheers
Niclas
P.S. Every Sanagendamgagwedweinini on Google refers back to you. Is this some
marker to all your doings on the web?
--
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
>>
>> A practice of asking people to leave, or trying to drive them away, because
>> they don't agree with you is not acceptable.
>
> It is a single occurrence in time, and in my book everyone is allowed to make
> occassional mistakes. You make them, I make them, everyone makes them.
> I think the difference of "Hey, Steve that is not acceptable!" warning, to a
> categorical character assassination across the ASF is a bit much.
No, I don't think it was a single occurrence. And there you go again with
another highly charged term. What's interesting is that *you're* the one
that keeps associating Stephen's name with this stuff. The only time I
mentioned him by name was when I was correcting the mistake about
authority.
- --
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 12:09, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
> People leaving a project for J Random Reason is acceptable attrition.
>
> People leaving because they don't agree with the majority opinion is, too.
>
> A practice of asking people to leave, or trying to drive them away, because
> they don't agree with you is not acceptable.
>
> Charges of the latter were levied, and as I recall were supported by the
> email archives. If so (i.e., if I'm not misremembering), it's a factual
> observation of behaviour, not FUD. I suspect Noel already has the
> relevant source documents ready to hand if necessary.
( On PMC list == not in mail archives. But that is beside the point. )
It is a single occurrence in time, and in my book everyone is allowed to make
occassional mistakes. You make them, I make them, everyone makes them.
I think the difference of "Hey, Steve that is not acceptable!" warning, to a
categorical character assassination across the ASF is a bit much.
Cheers
Niclas
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Stephen McConnell wrote:
>
> OK - let's play this game but let's do it properly.
I don't intend to touch this remark.
> Open up the Avalon PMC archives and let's really get down to real metal
> and in the process I think we will clean up more that a couple of
> popular misconceptions. In fact publishing this stuff would be in best
> interests of the foundation - unless of course somebody has something to
> hide, and surely, that's not the case, not here.
As has been pointed out, the PMC archives are open to any and all ASF
members. They can examine them and draw their own conclusions. If
any members do so, and feel that I, Noel, Greg -- or Niclas or Stephen --
or anyone else -- is misrepresenting things, I dearly hope they will
speak up and say, 'my examination of the PMC mail archives shows me that
the support *x* and don't support *y*.'
- --
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rodent of Unusual Size [mailto:Ken.Coar@Golux.Com]
> Sent: 21 December 2004 05:10
> To: community@apache.org
> Subject: Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Niclas Hedhman wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday 21 December 2004 07:41, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> >
> >> Point?
> >
> > That "consensus by attrition" is a negatively loaded term, yet a
natural
> > occurring thing in all projects (people do leave healthy projects)
which
> is
> > replenished with new blood (but in our case that is also turned into
> > something bad).
> > SO the point is; "Consensus by attrition" is FUD, and hard to argue
> against,
> > yet said enough many times, it has turned into "a fact".
>
> People leaving a project for J Random Reason is acceptable attrition.
>
> People leaving because they don't agree with the majority opinion is,
too.
>
> A practice of asking people to leave, or trying to drive them away,
> because they don't agree with you is not acceptable.
>
> Charges of the latter were levied, and as I recall were supported by
the
> email archives. If so (i.e., if I'm not misremembering), it's a
factual
> observation of behaviour, not FUD. I suspect Noel already has the
> relevant source documents ready to hand if necessary.
OK - let's play this game but let's do it properly.
Open up the Avalon PMC archives and let's really get down to real metal
and in the process I think we will clean up more that a couple of
popular misconceptions. In fact publishing this stuff would be in best
interests of the foundation - unless of course somebody has something to
hide, and surely, that's not the case, not here.
Stephen.
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> On Tuesday 21 December 2004 07:41, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
>> Point?
>
> That "consensus by attrition" is a negatively loaded term, yet a natural
> occurring thing in all projects (people do leave healthy projects) which is
> replenished with new blood (but in our case that is also turned into
> something bad).
> SO the point is; "Consensus by attrition" is FUD, and hard to argue against,
> yet said enough many times, it has turned into "a fact".
People leaving a project for J Random Reason is acceptable attrition.
People leaving because they don't agree with the majority opinion is, too.
A practice of asking people to leave, or trying to drive them away, because
they don't agree with you is not acceptable.
Charges of the latter were levied, and as I recall were supported by the
email archives. If so (i.e., if I'm not misremembering), it's a factual
observation of behaviour, not FUD. I suspect Noel already has the
relevant source documents ready to hand if necessary.
- --
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
FYI:
The avalon-pmc archives are fully available to ASF Members. For those
who are done poking forks in their eyes, and would like something only
a bit less painful, then you can review the threads which talk about
"attrition" or "nazi" in the 200403 archive.
Cheers,
-g
On Tue, Dec 21, 2004 at 12:04:42AM -0500, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Stephen McConnell wrote:
>
> > If I remember correctly you coined the phrase, and now you are promoting
> > this left right and center presumably as your rationalization of past
> > events. Cut to chase - publish all of this - not just the selected
> > extracts.
>
> Actually, I was just checking some of the archives. Aaron may have coined
> it in this context. Or he just quoted me from a message I don't have handy.
> It doesn't really matter.
>
> I'm not sure what events you feel I'm rationalizing, since I was one of the
> increasingly few who was interested in seeing Merlin have a home at the ASF.
>
> > Let's stop this "hiding behind private lists".
>
> Assuming that no one objected to making the content public, you'd have to
> find someone with the time to vet the archive contents. I have no idea who
> has such time.
>
> --- Noel
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
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RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Stephen McConnell wrote:
> If I remember correctly you coined the phrase, and now you are promoting
> this left right and center presumably as your rationalization of past
> events. Cut to chase - publish all of this - not just the selected
> extracts.
Actually, I was just checking some of the archives. Aaron may have coined
it in this context. Or he just quoted me from a message I don't have handy.
It doesn't really matter.
I'm not sure what events you feel I'm rationalizing, since I was one of the
increasingly few who was interested in seeing Merlin have a home at the ASF.
> Let's stop this "hiding behind private lists".
Assuming that no one objected to making the content public, you'd have to
find someone with the time to vet the archive contents. I have no idea who
has such time.
--- Noel
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RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:noel@devtech.com]
> Sent: 21 December 2004 05:30
> To: community@apache.org
> Subject: RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
>
> > "consensus by attrition" is a negatively loaded term, yet a natural
> > occurring thing in all projects
>
> Not when the attrition is caused by unhealthy friction and
> stress within the community, and an active(and stated)
> goal to remove those who didn't share a particular
> vision.
If I remember correctly you coined the phrase, and now you are promoting
this left right and center presumably as your rationalization of past
events. Cut to chase - publish all of this - not just the selected
extracts.
Let's stop this "hiding behind private lists".
Stephen.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
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RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> "consensus by attrition" is a negatively loaded term, yet a natural
> occurring thing in all projects
Not when the attrition is caused by unhealthy friction and stress within the
community, and an active (and stated) goal to remove those who didn't share
a particular vision.
--- Noel
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 07:41, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> You seem to keep forgetting that I supported Merlin havine a home
> at the ASF.
Very much appreciated :o) , as I know you normally saw through all the BS that
was part of the Avalon stage.
> Point?
That "consensus by attrition" is a negatively loaded term, yet a natural
occurring thing in all projects (people do leave healthy projects) which is
replenished with new blood (but in our case that is also turned into
something bad).
SO the point is; "Consensus by attrition" is FUD, and hard to argue against,
yet said enough many times, it has turned into "a fact".
Cheers
Niclas
--
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RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=attrition.
> Why didn't you list the meanings given by your link
Because people can read.
> 1. and 2. is probably what people are referring to
Yes.
> Some highly successful projects in ASF, has started with just a
> few people, and not exceeding 5 in its first year.
> Now, there are 4 developers in Metro who hack around in the core,
> and ~3-4 working on aux stuff.
Point? You seem to keep forgetting that I supported Merlin havine a home at
the ASF.
--- Noel
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Friday 17 December 2004 00:13, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Well, actually the dictionary does:
> http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=attrition. And, yes, when someone
> suggests that those who don't agree with him remove themselves from the
> decision-making process, I would call that consensus by attrition.
Why didn't you list the meanings given by your link;
<quote>
1. A rubbing away or wearing down by friction.
2. A gradual diminution in number or strength because of constant stress.
3. A gradual, natural reduction in membership or personnel, as through
retirement, resignation, or death.
4. Repentance for sin motivated by fear of punishment rather than by love of
God.
</quote>
Assuming that 4. is not what people are talking about;
3. indicates that any reduction of numbers can be called by "attrition"
irregardless of method for that to occur, which I would see no harm in per
se.
1. and 2. is probably what people are referring to, which are essentially the
same.
Avalon has apparently been full of stress for a very long time, way before
Merlin was in Steve's head. Heaps of people left due to it, a long, long time
ago. I find it awkward that the most stress-tolerant people are accused of
doing something bad. Are they responsible for adding to the stress? Yes. But
so are many of the people who left.
And regarding the developer/committer base in Merlin;
Some highly successful projects in ASF, has started with just a few people,
and not exceeding 5 in its first year. Merlin's first *beta* release was in
Sep 2003, then effectively 1 committer. The first official release, endorsed
by the PMC, was in late May this year, and effectively two core committers
and 3-4 working on auxillary stuff.
Now, there are 4 developers in Metro who hack around in the core, and ~3-4
working on aux stuff. I would call this natural progression, even within ASF.
Attrition happens in all projects, no matter if they are successful or not. It
is only how you play the word game, the FUD and the general politics whether
it is perceived as 'believable' or not.
Cheers
Niclas
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RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Niclas,
J Aarron said it so well, I really have little to add, but I'll respond to a
couple of your comments directed to me.
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > proceeded to engineer consensus by attrition,
> I am sick and tired of hearing this about Steve
> Many people lay their argument to rest and steps aside to
> let those who are able to complete their vision. Steve
> proposes/suggest to the remaining individuals to do the
> same, THAT is what you now call attrition.
Well, actually the dictionary does:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=attrition. And, yes, when someone
suggests that those who don't agree with him remove themselves from the
decision-making process, I would call that consensus by attrition.
> Noel, you know all of this, yet you decide to ignore facts and only
> re-inforce the myth of "consensus by attrition" of Stephen McConnell.
The PMC e-mail archives support it -- including Stephen's direct requests to
several PMC members for them to resign.
> Your motives for that is unknown
Motives? I was one of the ones willing to support Merlin at the ASF, and
I've told Stephen that we'll be willing to test JAMES on Merlin. However, I
have also said to him that I'm not interested in forking JAMES to do so.
Merlin must maintain compatibility with existing Avalon components. If we
are going to rewrite JAMES to deal with container issues, we'll move away
from container dependence entirely.
> Now is now, and everyone who set out to get Steve kicked out of ASF have
> succeeded.
How is Stephen kicked out? He's welcome to participate as far as I'm
concerned.
--- Noel
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Wednesday 01 December 2004 11:26, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> more important than the community's vision
The "[VOTE] Single Avalon Platform"[1] was started by Aaron. The vote passed,
although you decided not to participate.
True, the vote is not about Merlin==Avalon, but about a to-be-defined
specification, although it is hinted both in the [VOTE] as well as in the
Vote results[2], that Merlin is the only platform that had enough momentum to
fulfill such specification.
> proceeded to engineer consensus by attrition,
I am sick and tired of hearing this about Steve (just because something is
said enough many times, doesn't make it true), so let's bring out some
attrition...
* Leo Sutic called the "Merlin camp" <quote>Steve and his Nazi hordes</quote>.
* I pointed out that was inappropriate language in a very formal tone, but not
really offended.
* Greg Stein[3] steps into the discussion and goes; "What's your problem?"
So, my conclusion was; to Greg it is fine to call someone a Nazist, but it is
not fine to object to it. I found that disgusting and left the Avalon PMC in
protest.
In the end, there was a lot of "mouth" and very little "action" from one camp,
and very much "backing your mouth with action" in the other. Many people lay
their argument to rest and steps aside to let those who are able to complete
their vision. Steve proposes/suggest to the remaining individuals to do the
same, THAT is what you now call attrition.
The proposal of splitting into both Excalibur and Merlin TLPs are a result of
all these flamewars. To be frank, at that time, Merlin was the technically
different project. It had expanded the scope of Avalon by a magnitude, yet
members of the Board encourages us to withdraw the proposal and forge ahead
within Avalon. The people who didn't like Merlin, started Excalibur, i.e.
'old Avalon without Framework'.
Furthermore, during the Merlin TLP proposal, Mr Coar tells me that he will not
support the formation of a project based on balkanization of people and only
for differentiation on technology. YET, he did exactly that with the
Excalibur TLP, AND not along technical differences that Merlin in effect was
all about. When pressed, Mr Coar admits that he didn't know any of the
technology within Avalon, and trusts other members of the Board to provide
the judgment.
Noel, you know all of this, yet you decide to ignore facts and only re-inforce
the myth of "consensus by attrition" of Stephen McConnell. Your motives for
that is unknown, and I won't speculate, but I will not let you get away with
it that easy.
Now is now, and everyone who set out to get Steve kicked out of ASF have
succeeded. Mission accomplished, without officially having to kick him out.
In retrospect, do I regret that we now are active outside ASF? No, not at all.
I think it is a bigger loss to ASF than it is to us. Transitional hurdles for
some Merlin users, yes, but we are getting over that and will forge ahead
with a lot of "action" and no "mouth". Since "mouthing" is the fashion in
ASF, I come here to do it... :o)
Cheers
Niclas
[1] http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=avalon-dev&m=107906869526922&w=2
[2] http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=avalon-dev&m=107940014832041&w=2
[3] Since Greg was not an Avalon user nor developer, I assumed that he
intervened in the capacity as ASF Chairman, but he later pointed out that he
was acting as an interested individual, my peer developer, hanging out on the
Avalon PMC list, and not acting in any official capacity.
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RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Stephen McConnell wrote:
> The Avalon community established a PMC to represent the community
> interests concerning the direction and administration of the Avalon
> project. The community interests were clear - a single platform, one
> specification, a cohesive solution. That decision was not respected by
> the outgoing chair nor the board of directors of the ASF.
The Board had nothing to do with the closure. The "outgoing chair" tried
for a long time to resolve it by other changes. The fact is that you
decided that your vision was more important than the community's vision, and
proceeded to engineer consensus by attrition, both within the community and
within the PMC, including asking both myself and another PMC member to
resign.
Despite that, I continued to work to keep Merlin at the ASF, as did at least
one Director who had offered to personally mentor the project. You were not
willing to accept any proposals, and prefered to remove Merlin elsewhere.
Aaron is right to thank all of those who put blood, sweat and tears into
Avalon.
> Irrespective of the above obstacles a real and tangible alternative to
> ASF continues under http://www.dpml.net. The fundamental difference -
> no distinction between the people who contribute and the people who run
> the process.
In other words, you make the rules and run the show.
--- Noel
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RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Stephen McConnell wrote:
> The Avalon community established a PMC to represent the community
> interests concerning the direction and administration of the Avalon
> project. The community interests were clear - a single platform, one
> specification, a cohesive solution. That decision was not respected by
> the outgoing chair nor the board of directors of the ASF.
The Board had nothing to do with the closure. The "outgoing chair" tried
for a long time to resolve it by other changes. The fact is that you
decided that your vision was more important than the community's vision, and
proceeded to engineer consensus by attrition, both within the community and
within the PMC, including asking both myself and another PMC member to
resign.
Despite that, I continued to work to keep Merlin at the ASF, as did at least
one Director who had offered to personally mentor the project. You were not
willing to accept any proposals, and prefered to remove Merlin elsewhere.
Aaron is right to thank all of those who put blood, sweat and tears into
Avalon.
> Irrespective of the above obstacles a real and tangible alternative to
> ASF continues under http://www.dpml.net. The fundamental difference -
> no distinction between the people who contribute and the people who run
> the process.
In other words, you make the rules and run the show.
--- Noel
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