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Posted to dev@subversion.apache.org by Jack Huang <Hu...@masirv.com> on 2002/06/05 16:05:22 UTC
GUI for subversion?
Hi there,
I am wondering if there will be a GUI for Subversion once it's released, or
are you leaving it up to 3rd party development.
Thanks
Jack
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Re: GUI for subversion?
Posted by Karl Fogel <kf...@newton.ch.collab.net>.
"Glenn A. Thompson" <gt...@cdr.net> writes:
> Did someone actually say they would contact TortoiseCVS(dev folk) to see if
> they were interested in developing a svn edition?
> I asked if someone had done so. It wasn't clear to me that someone actually
> said they had/would.
> If nobody has asked them, I'll go ahead and fire off an email asking the
> question.
I don't recall any firm plan. IMHO go ahead and ask them...
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Re: GUI for subversion?
Posted by "Glenn A. Thompson" <gt...@cdr.net>.
Hey:
Did someone actually say they would contact TortoiseCVS(dev folk) to see if
they were interested in developing a svn edition?
I asked if someone had done so. It wasn't clear to me that someone actually
said they had/would.
If nobody has asked them, I'll go ahead and fire off an email asking the
question.
gat
Martijn Boekhorst wrote:
> > I am wondering if there will be a GUI for Subversion once it's
> > released, or are you leaving it up to 3rd party development.
> I'm working on a windows one - there was some discussion about a wxWindows
> one, though I lost track, and I believe someone (who?) is asking
> TortoiseCVS if they're interested in developing a svn edition.
> Wether or not I am a 3rd party I don't know. It'll take me quite some time
> before I have anything to show mind you (Think : Month or two).
> Cheers, Martijn.
>
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Re: GUI for subversion?
Posted by Karl Fogel <kf...@newton.ch.collab.net>.
Time is scarce. We hope you'll be able to help with this.
-Karl
"Jay Freeman \(saurik\)" <sa...@saurik.com> writes:
> I've been working on a subversion shell extension ala Tortoise CVS. Started
> it a while back (wow... back early December) and put some time into it
> occasionally, but finally put off working on it sometime back in February
> until the Windows build actually worked. Really, I pretty much gave up on
> any Subversion development at all until I felt that the main Subversion
> developers were going to actually prioritize getting it working on Windows
> enough to stop adding features and started working on getting the Windows
> build doing anything more than the most simple of update and commit
> operations (and only if you type the filenames just right). The "if Windows
> developers want it to work, they can contribute fixes for it" attitude was
> inexcusable to me on a project that claims to be cross platform as well as
> specifically listing "Windows" as a target. The main developers didn't even
> have Windows boxes to run or compile it on...
>
> The only screenshot I have on hand is one I took to demonstrate my
> frustrations a while back with either a bug or a limitation of the API
> (forgot which... this one might have even been my fault...):
> http://test.saurik.com/unversioned.jpg . The screenshot doesn't demonstrate
> much seeing as, at the time, I wasn't able to get valid information for
> files from the API.
>
> *will have to play with the windows build later today and see if it is all
> happiness yet with things like directory moves and deletes (the most common
> issues caused by the poorly designed read-only file API in APR that the Unix
> people added), case _in_sensitivity in file names (which totally thrashed a
> lot of work that a friend of mine did when I gave him access to a repository
> and subversion kept silently going insane on the server when he would fail
> to type the file names in the same case as they were on the drive), / vs. \
> at the command line, and the other long list of things that has been a known
> issue since forever*
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Re: GUI for subversion?
Posted by Karl Fogel <kf...@newton.ch.collab.net>.
Karl Fogel <kf...@newton.ch.collab.net> writes:
> Subversion works well on Unix because more Unix developers
> participate. It works on Win32 to the degree that Win32 developers
> participate (like Brane, et al, bless 'em). No one's
^^^^^^^^^^^^
I don't rembember what I was going to say here, but perhaps it's just
as well that I didn't say it.
-K
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Re: GUI for subversion?
Posted by Kevin Pilch-Bisson <ke...@pilch-bisson.net>.
On Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 05:57:35PM -0400, William Uther wrote:
> ...
> this paragraph as changing anything. How about some other suggestions:
>
> - someone set up a Win32 box doing an automated build and test. send the
> results to svn-breakage@subversion.tigris.org.
brane, sussman and I were just talking about this on IRC today. We would also
like to be able to test over ra_dav on win32, which is currently impossible
(due to the use of symlinks in the dav testing code).
> - Add some OS specific tests to the test system. This could test things
> like the c:\pathnames on Win32. Might need a third N/A outcome on the test
> harness for tests that were not tried due to the fact that they're not
> relevant on the test system.
Good idea.
>
> This way the Win32 programmers could concentrate on writing win32 regression
> tests when things break. If they get broken again then at least everyone
> will know. It'll provide faster feedback to the svn developers if they
> break something on Win32.
>
> So, who wants to volunteer to run the Win32 auto-build system? (Can't be me
> - I don't have win32 box around here. Sorry.)
>
I don't yet, but may be able to in a few months once I have access to a win32
machine and dev environment.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Kevin Pilch-Bisson http://www.pilch-bisson.net
"Historically speaking, the presences of wheels in Unix
has never precluded their reinvention." - Larry Wall
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: GUI for subversion?
Posted by Branko Čibej <br...@xbc.nu>.
Jay Freeman (saurik) wrote:
>Karl:
>
>I'm not "complaining" about "other people" to you. I was bringing them up
>as something to understand in the emotional climate that I am in as I typed
>the previous e-mail. I do find it interesting that you don't care much
>about the fact that "other people" have complaints about Subversion.
>
In light of this, and quoting from your previous post:
>I understand that my e-mail here is a little abrasive, but it's a
>culmination of being fed up for months, dealing with other people who are
>now thouroughly convinced that we won't be able to switch to Subversion for
>the projects I have been advocating it for due to the seeming lack of Win32
>empathy, ...
>
It seems to me you're blaming us for your losing face in front of your
co-workers because we didn't keep to a schedule we never implied,
promised or contracted for. That's an interesting position, to say the
least.
>Touche on your "are you volunteering" response. Actually, I _would_ be
>willing to rip out all of the read only file code if this hasn't been done
>already (which would be "solve [the] problem[]" on "the code should be
>rolled back"). Brane asked if this could be done a while back and I believe
>the discussion died for some reason (which was interesting, as I remember
>Greg being mad at the read only code himself for other reasons).
>
You're complaining about a minor inconvenience that was to be expected
in pre-alpha software, as if this was a support contact, not a
development list. That attitude puts people (including me) in a bad mood.
(I've gone and fixed that bit in the meantime, BTW, and the very least
you could do is inform yourself about the facts first.)
>Alas, I am unable to do much about people who add files to the project and
>don't get them into the Windows project files. The fact that people aren't
>helping other developers and notifying them when they add files is the
>problem here, not neccessarily something that a third party can efficiently
>address. This is a policy issue on commiters, and a good example of the
>kinds of things that would help non-Unix developers.
>
>If you want something I _could_ offer (and likely would), it is either to
>futz with the build enviroment and build an automatic dsp generator (which
>is likely to be important as the APR people got so mad when I... nicely I
>might add... asked if VC++ 7 could be supported and they yelled at me that
>VC6 might not even be continued to be supported until someone wrote an
>automatic project generator). I am likely to be doing this for my own
>purposes anyway, although I think that someone else was already volunteering
>to work on such a solution for APR, which would make the effort quite
>duplicious.
>
If you really mean that, there's a lot of infrastructure now in place
for generating the .dsp (and other kinds of project) files. It would
definitely help, and I for one would be glad to help you get started,
although I can (for now) live with the status quo.
(I don't see what bearing the response on the APR list has on this
discussion.)
>The patches I sent in weren't ignored... the patches I sent in _were_
>merged, and a good amount of my time was put into trying to deal with these
>various issues. It was more that they weren't enough to deal with the
>issues (I simply didn't understand how Subversion worked well enough to
>address most of them), so the issues were sluffed off as unimportant and
>mostly still left unfixed. The point of the sentence had nothing to do with
>the patches themselves (and maybe the effect would have been better had I
>not even used the word "my", I had a feeling someone would nit on that), but
>on the attitude that went into such a milestone release.
>
Have you ever heard of the concept of priority? Has pre-alpha been
explained to you? I'm sure the priorities for the project were/are
clear; and, while Win32 support might be a goal for 1.0, it was more
important _at that time_ to get features in than to get Win32 working.
Even though I chose to develop almost exclusively on Windows -- taking
the harder path on purpose, BTW, as I'm equally at home on Unix -- I
entirely underst(and/ood) and support(ed) that decision.
>Tasking outside developers,
>
What are "outside developers"? You seem to persisit in the notion that,
because some people are empoyed full-time to develop Subversion, you
have a right to demand support service from them. You do not. This is
still an Open Source project, with all that implies. Individual
contributions may vary, but the key is "contribution", not "gimme".
If you want some feature, you can implement it. If you don't have the
knowledge/time to do that, that's fine: proposals and proper discussion
are never discouraged, and we even have Issuezilla to help keep track of
things. But priorities are based on project goals. If you can't live
with that, you should try to contribute -- either code or funding would
work, IMHO. Making demands from volunteers won't work, and will gain you
no sympathy here.
>who by nature aren't at expert level at how
>Subversion works, exclusively to fix issues that seem core to the
>abstractions (such as case sensitivity and the occasionally weird behavior
>of directory seperators) is not a sufficient way to deal with these problems
>(a point helped in evidence of this project), and I hate to break this to
>you, but don't require much platform specific knowledge at all. You just
>have to know some of the limitations of the other platform (such as "case
>insensitive" and "uses \ instead of /", we aren't talking things that are
>that complicated) as you develop. If you want other people, including me,
>to be able to fix these issues, you have to devote more of _your_ time to
>understanding the issues, finding the problems, and yes, even thinking a
>little bit like a Win32 programmer.
>
Fixing "issues that seem core to the abstractions" takes time, even if
they're "not that complicated". So they have to be assigned a priority.
Basic project management principle there.
The priority of this particular issue is not high enough to gain
attention from full-time developers. I might contribute a fix in my
spare time, if it starts bothering me. But it doesn't bother me yet, and
I have much more important SVN work to do, so I won't fix it now.
>To point out, similar issues to the ones I'm bringing up have come up in the
>past in a thread called "Subversion portability", started by Brane after a
>"sermon" he wrote to another thread. The entire thing is rather well summed
>up by the first e-mail to "Subversion portability" that contains both the
>sermon, a response, and a few extra points.
>
Please do not ever again even think of misrepresenting me like that.
Read that thread again. I analysed the problem and its possible
consequences; then I contributed code (and equipment!!!) and set up
automatic testing on several platforms, and made regression tests run on
Windows. And I definitely did not demand that other people should do
that instead of me.
>The arguments are quite similar
>to mine, and only slightly less inflamatory :).
>
>
I find your arguments more than inflammatory. They're downright
offensive, especially to the many people who've spent a significant
amount of their spare time contributing (code, design, or knowledgable
discussion) to this project. Such indiscriminate flaming is simply not
how I'd expect a mature person to behave in public.
--
Brane Čibej <br...@xbc.nu> http://www.xbc.nu/brane/
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Re: GUI for subversion?
Posted by Karl Fogel <kf...@newton.ch.collab.net>.
"Jay Freeman \(saurik\)" <sa...@saurik.com> writes:
> I do find it interesting that you don't care much
> about the fact that "other people" have complaints about Subversion.
:-) That's not what I was saying, of course.
We all care a great deal if people have complaints, but the useful
complaints are ones that come with constructive suggestions.
> Alas, I am unable to do much about people who add files to the project and
> don't get them into the Windows project files.
Have you considered adding them to the Windows project files? It's
not hard; I just did it in a commit earlier today, in fact.
Seriously, this problem exists for technical reasons, having to do
with how our build system autogenerates dependencies. It just needs
to generate the dsp files too (any others I'm forgetting?). Brane &
others have been working on fixing it, and your help would be
welcome.
> The fact that people aren't
> helping other developers and notifying them when they add files is the
> problem here, not neccessarily something that a third party can efficiently
> address.
And they *are* notifying them, in their commit emails.
> If you want something I _could_ offer (and likely would), it is either to
> futz with the build enviroment and build an automatic dsp generator (which
> is likely to be important as the APR people got so mad when I... nicely I
> might add... asked if VC++ 7 could be supported and they yelled at me that
> VC6 might not even be continued to be supported until someone wrote an
> automatic project generator).
I'm sorry the APR people shouted at you. No one here did, however.
> The patches I sent in weren't ignored... the patches I sent in _were_
> merged, and a good amount of my time was put into trying to deal with these
> various issues. It was more that they weren't enough to deal with the
> issues (I simply didn't understand how Subversion worked well enough to
> address most of them), so the issues were sluffed off as unimportant and
> mostly still left unfixed.
The crux of your complaint is in the passive voice: "were sluffed
off". Who exactly sluffed them off? Everyone? The particular Win32
developer who was responsible for maintaining them but didn't? You?
Me? Fred :-)?
> Tasking outside developers, who by nature aren't at expert level at how
> Subversion works, exclusively to fix issues that seem core to the
> abstractions (such as case sensitivity and the occasionally weird behavior
> of directory seperators) is not a sufficient way to deal with these problems
> (a point helped in evidence of this project), and I hate to break this to
> you, but don't require much platform specific knowledge at all. You just
> have to know some of the limitations of the other platform (such as "case
> insensitive" and "uses \ instead of /", we aren't talking things that are
> that complicated) as you develop.
The best way you can teach us to observe these things is by pointing
them out when they come up, in concrete technical terms, and
suggesting solutions. I promise you, we'll learn over time. We've
all managed to learn many other things, these are no different.
In this thread, you haven't done that yet, and that's why I'm
responding as I am.
-K
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Re: GUI for subversion?
Posted by Branko Čibej <br...@xbc.nu>.
Karl Fogel wrote:
>(One data point I'm using is that other Win32 developers are not
>expressing Jay's level of annoyance; certainly they're not complaining
>about trivial, easy-to-handle stuff like forgetting to update the .dsp
>files, gack! :-) )
>
>
Well, I /am/, but then you know I blow up easily. Hand me a beer and I'm
your best friend. :-)
--
Brane Čibej <br...@xbc.nu> http://www.xbc.nu/brane/
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Re: GUI for subversion?
Posted by Karl Fogel <kf...@newton.ch.collab.net>.
William Uther <wi...@cs.cmu.edu> writes:
> I don't think that is going to work. It hasn't in the past and I don't see
> this paragraph as changing anything. How about some other suggestions:
Hmmm. Am I unclear on the size of the problem here?
I understand that Subversion on Win32 has problems from time to time.
In one release, there was even a showstopper regarding checkouts, but
that was an exception, afaik.
In general, the Win32 build works, and is functional enough to
participate in Subversion development.
Is that statement true or false? If the Win32 build is constantly in
a state of utter brokenness, then I agree there's a problem and would
feel personally like devoting time to solving it. But if it's just
got buglets, which can be quickly found and fixed by people running
Win32 anyway, then that's just part of the normal process.
Those problems that Jay described (or those he described in enough
detail for me to recognize them) were all of this second sort. They
are not crises, nor reasons to throw up one's hands and say
"Subversion just doesn't care about Win32.". They're just small-scale
hair to deal with, not real obstructions to development, unless I
missed something big...
Either way, Jay's mail is long on complaints, and short on concrete
suggestions for what to do about them. It's just not a helpful kind
of mail to send -- yours was much better both in tone and analysis of
the problem, for example.
(One data point I'm using is that other Win32 developers are not
expressing Jay's level of annoyance; certainly they're not complaining
about trivial, easy-to-handle stuff like forgetting to update the .dsp
files, gack! :-) )
-K
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Re: GUI for subversion?
Posted by Karl Fogel <kf...@newton.ch.collab.net>.
"Jay Freeman \(saurik\)" <sa...@saurik.com> writes:
> I would be more than happy to do that. Don't have time right now (have
> actually been running back and forth in-between e-mails being late to
> various classes, hehe), but you can expect something later tonight or
> tomorrow.
Thanks! That will help a lot.
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Re: One last GUI snap
Posted by br...@xbc.nu.
Quoting Martijn Boekhorst <su...@boekhorst.net>:
> >> One of the reasons for choosing a Windows dedicated version is so I
> >> could
> >> "jelly the GUI" :
> >> http://boekhorst.net/Visor.png
> >>
> >> Yes, a 20KB PNG :)
> >
> > Very nice, flashy and all that, but ... it strikes me you're
> > concentrating on a cool interface, instead of the functionality
> behind
> > it. Are you sure you want to do that? :-)
>
> Ah, yes, well, Yes, infact, this is quite a conscious decision..
>
>
> I'm building this from a toolkit perspective (dfa toolkit, hilighting
> toolkit, line-editting toolkit, fancy GUI toolkit, file hierarchy
> toolkit
> etc.), so the things you see on the screen are just small building
> blocks
> to be integrated into a larger whole. I'm quite intentionally staying
> away
> from subversion for now and have the strong desire to make it
> 'flashy'.
> However, quite a bit of the flashy work needs to be built up from the
> foundation for it to work (eg. hilighting affects directly how I store
> a
> file internally) - it's easier to do this now than to add it later..
> GUI work is trivial btw. Not a lot of work, provided I build it in
> from
> the start. If I were to add it later, it'd become quite a painful
> nightmare. To give you an example, the difference of the two
> screenshots
> sent before are a matter of hours, not days.
>
> Finally, many people compare screenshots (myself included) prior to
> downloading, making this GUI flashy will improve the "subversion
> experience" when compared to Visual Sourcesafe or whatnot.
> W.r.t. svn functionality - I think (also referencing to (but not
> participating in!) the other threads) I want to wait before I dive in
> there. Goal is now to set everything up so I can just "clunk" it in
> there.
I only hope you're aware that, without a good design, it can be as painful a
nightmare to add semantics to a GUI as the other way around. Anyway, it's your call.
> Summarizing the various opinions stated : 1) if I don't do it from the
> start, it's not going to get done, 2) user experience is critical to
> adoption, 3) svn still needs Win32 work (*ducks*
/me swings and misses
> - yes I know, I (sh|c)ould do this).
Well, since we decided that the client is responsible for canonicalizing path
names, you may have to do the work in the end anyway. :-)
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Re: One last GUI snap
Posted by Martijn Boekhorst <su...@boekhorst.net>.
>> One of the reasons for choosing a Windows dedicated version is so I
>> could
>> "jelly the GUI" :
>> http://boekhorst.net/Visor.png
>>
>> Yes, a 20KB PNG :)
>
> Very nice, flashy and all that, but ... it strikes me you're
> concentrating on a cool interface, instead of the functionality behind
> it. Are you sure you want to do that? :-)
Ah, yes, well, Yes, infact, this is quite a conscious decision..
I'm building this from a toolkit perspective (dfa toolkit, hilighting
toolkit, line-editting toolkit, fancy GUI toolkit, file hierarchy toolkit
etc.), so the things you see on the screen are just small building blocks
to be integrated into a larger whole. I'm quite intentionally staying away
from subversion for now and have the strong desire to make it 'flashy'.
However, quite a bit of the flashy work needs to be built up from the
foundation for it to work (eg. hilighting affects directly how I store a
file internally) - it's easier to do this now than to add it later..
GUI work is trivial btw. Not a lot of work, provided I build it in from
the start. If I were to add it later, it'd become quite a painful
nightmare. To give you an example, the difference of the two screenshots
sent before are a matter of hours, not days.
Finally, many people compare screenshots (myself included) prior to
downloading, making this GUI flashy will improve the "subversion
experience" when compared to Visual Sourcesafe or whatnot.
W.r.t. svn functionality - I think (also referencing to (but not
participating in!) the other threads) I want to wait before I dive in
there. Goal is now to set everything up so I can just "clunk" it in there.
Summarizing the various opinions stated : 1) if I don't do it from the
start, it's not going to get done, 2) user experience is critical to
adoption, 3) svn still needs Win32 work (*ducks* - yes I know, I
(sh|c)ould do this).
Regards, Martijn.
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Re: One last GUI snap
Posted by br...@xbc.nu.
Quoting Martijn Boekhorst <su...@boekhorst.net>:
>
> One of the reasons for choosing a Windows dedicated version is so I
> could
> "jelly the GUI" :
> http://boekhorst.net/Visor.png
>
> Yes, a 20KB PNG :)
Very nice, flashy and all that, but ... it strikes me you're concentrating on a
cool interface, instead of the functionality behind it. Are you sure you want to
do that? :-)
Brane
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One last GUI snap
Posted by Martijn Boekhorst <su...@boekhorst.net>.
One of the reasons for choosing a Windows dedicated version is so I could
"jelly the GUI" :
http://boekhorst.net/Visor.png
Yes, a 20KB PNG :)
This is is my current (coded) thought on what would happen if someone
checks in a file with conflicts (the full-blown diff/merge functionality).
If you move cursors up and down to scroll through a file you notice a
flicker which I need to work on (either by double-buffering the window or
scrollwindow-ing the thing). The alpha-windows are color-coded to indicate
the Diff part applicable (not applicable for this test ofcourse).
Will be somewhat skinnable (this test already is actually, but needs good
art, something I'm bad at it - logic is currently driven by three color
variants of a small sized button PNG file). Eventually needs Windows'98
and higher to run; 16 bit, etc (due to alpha-channel use).
Next on Todo :
- Bring it up to a conventional visual diff/merge tool level. (That is -
introduce the actual true side-by-side diff-er using Sander's alg's
impl.).
This is also where I'll introduce things like a scrollbars and helpers
alongside the scrollbar; scrollbar includes *scrolling* - which is quite
obviously missing. After merge/diff, implement dummy (file-based?) working
set tree control and distribute executable for feedback. Then do the
actual subversion client integration.
Hope you guys like it. Alpha channel PNG's with small buttons in them are
welcomed for default-skinning purposes.
Goal is to make it a GUI that will rival, if not exceed, any existing
tools out there (hey it's a noble goal).
Cheers, Martijn.
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Re: GUI for subversion?
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Thu, Jun 06, 2002 at 05:58:42PM -0500, Jay Freeman (saurik) wrote:
>...
> That's because most of these issues were _already_ flushed out in previous
> e-mails.
And for people who are busy doing a lot of things, all the time, it is
*very* easy for posts to "get paged out". I certainly don't recall any
specific items, so a refresher will be needed.
Please consider this paragraph from the HACKING document, regarding patches
(which applies equally well to *any* post on this list):
If you don't get a response for a while, and don't see the patch
applied, it may just mean that people are really busy. Go ahead and
repost, and don't hesitate to point out that you're still waiting for
a response. One way to think of it is that patch management is highly
parallizable, and we need you to shoulder your share of the management
as well as the coding. Every patch needs someone to shepherd it
through the process, and the person best qualified to do that is the
original submitter.
I think Karl is basically asking for a refresher.
>...
> I can rehash a lot of information, but I'm really not going to
> be bringing that much new to the table.
Absolutely, you will. We have no idea what you're referring to any more. At
a minimum, post links into the archives for review. But even better, write a
bulleted list with a sentence for each topic, and that link for more detail.
> The main one where I might have
> something new to say from the abbreviated list in my e-mail was the case
> sensitivity issue (which I can't remember a previous conversation about off
> the top of my head).
We have an open issue about that:
http://subversion.tigris.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=667
It hasn't been solved yet, and is really just waiting for somebody to work
on it. While we hope to have it solved for alpha, you can see in the issue
that I noted it might even slide to Beta simply because of the timing
involved.
> To note, the points about dsp files not being updated spawned from e-mails I
> noticed (while doing a search for "win32") from Patrik Husfloen. Take a
> look at "build error on win32" (which wasn't even replied to),
Maybe because it got fixed right away?
> and "rev 2062 does not build on win32" (which resulted in a few,
> semi-humourous comments from Brane, Greg, and yourself), both of which had
> to do with out-of-date dsp files.
Frankly, when I add a file, I forget to add it to the .dsp file. Simple as
that. And that behavior is particularly reinforced because I /don't/ have to
add the new file to anything on my dev platform. gen-make.py just happens to
find it and incorporate it for me.
I wrote some initial code for the .dsp generator, but I'm not sure that the
resulting .dsp files are Completely Right(tm), and I have no way to test
them. So that code is languishing until somebody on a Windows platform cares
to take the resulting .dsp files and try them out. And to tweak the
generator as appropriate.
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
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Re: GUI for subversion?
Posted by "Jay Freeman (saurik)" <sa...@saurik.com>.
Karl:
I would be more than happy to do that. Don't have time right now (have
actually been running back and forth in-between e-mails being late to
various classes, hehe), but you can expect something later tonight or
tomorrow.
(for reference, as I consider it partially obsolete, and brevity, so I don't
use a second e-mail, here is a response to your previous post, also cited
below)
That's because most of these issues were _already_ flushed out in previous
e-mails. The point of my complaint isn't "I just downloaded Subversion and
it doesn't do these few things so I'm complaining about them... obviously no
one cared enough to notice them". Brane and other developers (occasionally
myself a whiel back) have analyzed many of the problems in the Win32 builds
in the past. I can rehash a lot of information, but I'm really not going to
be bringing that much new to the table. The main one where I might have
something new to say from the abbreviated list in my e-mail was the case
sensitivity issue (which I can't remember a previous conversation about off
the top of my head).
To note, the points about dsp files not being updated spawned from e-mails I
noticed (while doing a search for "win32") from Patrik Husfloen. Take a
look at "build error on win32" (which wasn't even replied to), and "rev 2062
does not build on win32" (which resulted in a few, semi-humourous comments
from Brane, Greg, and yourself), both of which had to do with out-of-date
dsp files.
Brane's humerous response to the latter:
<quote sender="Brane">
Dam'! We need that automatic .dsp generator, and soon. Either that, or I
have to somehow link my Staff of Zot to the commit mailing list and fry
anyone who doesn't update the .dsp's when new files are added.
</quote>
Sincerely,
Jay Freeman (saurik)
saurik@saurik.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Karl Fogel" <kf...@newton.ch.collab.net>
To: "Jay Freeman (saurik)" <sa...@saurik.com>
Cc: "svn-dev" <de...@subversion.tigris.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: GUI for subversion?
> Hmmm. Jay, do you think you could post a mail listing all the known
> issues with Win32 right now? You seem to have a detailed handle on
> them all, thus making you one of the most qualified people to compose
> the list. I don't think everyone is aware of all of them; I know I'm
> not.
>
> For those where you have a solution in mind, great, describe that too,
> but there's no need to have solutions for all of them. Just seeing
> the list and understanding the problems in more technical detail will
> help us a great deal -- perhaps we'll see a common thread that allows
> us to solve several at once. At any rate, it would really help
> clarify the broad picture regarding Windows compatibility.
>
> Hoping you have the time...
>
> Thanks,
> -Karl
----- Original Message -----
From: "Karl Fogel" <kf...@newton.ch.collab.net>
To: "William Uther" <wi...@cs.cmu.edu>
Cc: "svn-dev" <de...@subversion.tigris.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 5:08 PM
Subject: Re: GUI for subversion?
...
> Either way, Jay's mail is long on complaints, and short on concrete
> suggestions for what to do about them. It's just not a helpful kind
> of mail to send -- yours was much better both in tone and analysis of
> the problem, for example.
>
> (One data point I'm using is that other Win32 developers are not
> expressing Jay's level of annoyance; certainly they're not complaining
> about trivial, easy-to-handle stuff like forgetting to update the .dsp
> files, gack! :-) )
>
> -K
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Re: GUI for subversion?
Posted by Karl Fogel <kf...@newton.ch.collab.net>.
Hmmm. Jay, do you think you could post a mail listing all the known
issues with Win32 right now? You seem to have a detailed handle on
them all, thus making you one of the most qualified people to compose
the list. I don't think everyone is aware of all of them; I know I'm
not.
For those where you have a solution in mind, great, describe that too,
but there's no need to have solutions for all of them. Just seeing
the list and understanding the problems in more technical detail will
help us a great deal -- perhaps we'll see a common thread that allows
us to solve several at once. At any rate, it would really help
clarify the broad picture regarding Windows compatibility.
Hoping you have the time...
Thanks,
-Karl
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Re: GUI for subversion?
Posted by Branko Čibej <br...@xbc.nu>.
Jay Freeman (saurik) wrote:
>William:
>
>My understanding is that Brane had an automated build working to the
>svn-breakage mailing list (which required deactivating the tests that
>assumed symlinks, and hacking up a few of the other tests to use the right
>Win32 file name semantics), but didn't leave it running as so many of the
>tests were failing.
>
>
Your understanding is wrong. There was never an automated tester on
Win32 as far as I know. And the number of failures on Win32 is now down
to 7: one is from APR, two are deficiencies in the test scripts, two are
_possibly_ bugs in the code, and two I don't know the cause for (yet).
--
Brane Čibej <br...@xbc.nu> http://www.xbc.nu/brane/
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Re: GUI for subversion?
Posted by "Jay Freeman (saurik)" <sa...@saurik.com>.
William:
My understanding is that Brane had an automated build working to the
svn-breakage mailing list (which required deactivating the tests that
assumed symlinks, and hacking up a few of the other tests to use the right
Win32 file name semantics), but didn't leave it running as so many of the
tests were failing.
(more to Karl:)
This also happens to be the thread that I am in reference to with the
suggestion to rip out the read only fs code. The name of the thread was
"svn rev 1724: FAIL (Win32 Release)" from back in April, if anyone is
curious. For Karl's benefit, I will reduce my usage of passive voice for a
moment (which I don't consider a valid arugment point, passive versus active
voice shouldn't effect what is said that much, it more effects the
forcefullness of the stance): everyone ignored the discussion. Branko
followed up on the build failures in a post called "Win32 client status"
(rather than "this was followed up in..."). Noone responded to the message,
or even seemed to acknowledge it (rather than "which was ignored").
Regardless, I have a Win32 box that I have running 24/7 that I would be
willing to run automated builds on.
Sincerely,
Jay Freeman (saurik)
saurik@saurik.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Uther" <wi...@cs.cmu.edu>
To: "svn-dev" <de...@subversion.tigris.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: GUI for subversion?
> Hi,
> I should stay out of this, but...
>
...
>
> This way the Win32 programmers could concentrate on writing win32
regression
> tests when things break. If they get broken again then at least everyone
> will know. It'll provide faster feedback to the svn developers if they
> break something on Win32.
>
> So, who wants to volunteer to run the Win32 auto-build system? (Can't be
me
> - I don't have win32 box around here. Sorry.)
>
> Later,
>
> \x/ill :-}
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Re: GUI for subversion?
Posted by William Uther <wi...@cs.cmu.edu>.
Hi,
I should stay out of this, but...
On 6/6/02 5:14 PM, "Jay Freeman (saurik)" <sa...@saurik.com> wrote:
> To point out, similar issues to the ones I'm bringing up have come up in the
> past in a thread called "Subversion portability", started by Brane after a
> "sermon" he wrote to another thread. The entire thing is rather well summed
> up by the first e-mail to "Subversion portability" that contains both the
> sermon, a response, and a few extra points. The arguments are quite similar
> to mine, and only slightly less inflamatory :).
You referring to this?
http://subversion.tigris.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=dev&msgNo=11217
On 5/6/02 5:32 PM, "Karl Fogel" <kf...@newton.ch.collab.net> wrote:
> The crux of your complaint is in the passive voice: "were sluffed
> off". Who exactly sluffed them off? Everyone? The particular Win32
> developer who was responsible for maintaining them but didn't? You?
> Me? Fred :-)?
Sounds like a process problem. Noone was responsible.
> The best way you can teach us to observe these things is by pointing
> them out when they come up, in concrete technical terms, and
> suggesting solutions. I promise you, we'll learn over time. We've
> all managed to learn many other things, these are no different.
I don't think that is going to work. It hasn't in the past and I don't see
this paragraph as changing anything. How about some other suggestions:
- someone set up a Win32 box doing an automated build and test. send the
results to svn-breakage@subversion.tigris.org.
- Add some OS specific tests to the test system. This could test things
like the c:\pathnames on Win32. Might need a third N/A outcome on the test
harness for tests that were not tried due to the fact that they're not
relevant on the test system.
This way the Win32 programmers could concentrate on writing win32 regression
tests when things break. If they get broken again then at least everyone
will know. It'll provide faster feedback to the svn developers if they
break something on Win32.
So, who wants to volunteer to run the Win32 auto-build system? (Can't be me
- I don't have win32 box around here. Sorry.)
Later,
\x/ill :-}
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Re: GUI for subversion?
Posted by "Jay Freeman (saurik)" <sa...@saurik.com>.
Karl:
I'm not "complaining" about "other people" to you. I was bringing them up
as something to understand in the emotional climate that I am in as I typed
the previous e-mail. I do find it interesting that you don't care much
about the fact that "other people" have complaints about Subversion.
Touche on your "are you volunteering" response. Actually, I _would_ be
willing to rip out all of the read only file code if this hasn't been done
already (which would be "solve [the] problem[]" on "the code should be
rolled back"). Brane asked if this could be done a while back and I believe
the discussion died for some reason (which was interesting, as I remember
Greg being mad at the read only code himself for other reasons).
Alas, I am unable to do much about people who add files to the project and
don't get them into the Windows project files. The fact that people aren't
helping other developers and notifying them when they add files is the
problem here, not neccessarily something that a third party can efficiently
address. This is a policy issue on commiters, and a good example of the
kinds of things that would help non-Unix developers.
If you want something I _could_ offer (and likely would), it is either to
futz with the build enviroment and build an automatic dsp generator (which
is likely to be important as the APR people got so mad when I... nicely I
might add... asked if VC++ 7 could be supported and they yelled at me that
VC6 might not even be continued to be supported until someone wrote an
automatic project generator). I am likely to be doing this for my own
purposes anyway, although I think that someone else was already volunteering
to work on such a solution for APR, which would make the effort quite
duplicious.
The patches I sent in weren't ignored... the patches I sent in _were_
merged, and a good amount of my time was put into trying to deal with these
various issues. It was more that they weren't enough to deal with the
issues (I simply didn't understand how Subversion worked well enough to
address most of them), so the issues were sluffed off as unimportant and
mostly still left unfixed. The point of the sentence had nothing to do with
the patches themselves (and maybe the effect would have been better had I
not even used the word "my", I had a feeling someone would nit on that), but
on the attitude that went into such a milestone release.
Tasking outside developers, who by nature aren't at expert level at how
Subversion works, exclusively to fix issues that seem core to the
abstractions (such as case sensitivity and the occasionally weird behavior
of directory seperators) is not a sufficient way to deal with these problems
(a point helped in evidence of this project), and I hate to break this to
you, but don't require much platform specific knowledge at all. You just
have to know some of the limitations of the other platform (such as "case
insensitive" and "uses \ instead of /", we aren't talking things that are
that complicated) as you develop. If you want other people, including me,
to be able to fix these issues, you have to devote more of _your_ time to
understanding the issues, finding the problems, and yes, even thinking a
little bit like a Win32 programmer.
To point out, similar issues to the ones I'm bringing up have come up in the
past in a thread called "Subversion portability", started by Brane after a
"sermon" he wrote to another thread. The entire thing is rather well summed
up by the first e-mail to "Subversion portability" that contains both the
sermon, a response, and a few extra points. The arguments are quite similar
to mine, and only slightly less inflamatory :).
Sincerely,
Jay Freeman (saurik)
saurik@saurik.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Karl Fogel" <kf...@newton.ch.collab.net>
To: "Jay Freeman (saurik)" <sa...@saurik.com>
Cc: "svn-dev" <de...@subversion.tigris.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: GUI for subversion?
> "Jay Freeman \(saurik\)" <sa...@saurik.com> writes:
> > I'd more like the Unix people to be careful about the Windows builds.
When
> > new files are added, people should be notified so the build scripts can
be
> > updated. When more fundamental issues come up (such as the major
read-only
> > regression that likely still hasn't been fixed), the code should be
rolled
> > back. There was even a milestone that almost went out a few months ago
with
> > a Win32 client that couldn't even do a checkout. There was more
interest in
> > getting the milestone out for the Unix people than getting the patch
that I
> > had sent in applied to the Win32 build. I am pretty sure it got
applied,
> > but only because I made an annoying argument to the case.
>
> I notice a lot of passive voice here. "People should be notified",
> "The code should be rolled back", ...
>
> Are you volunteering to solve these problems?
>
> If you're upset because you sent in patches which got ignored (which
> is justifiable), please post complaining about that issue. When you
> do work, like making a patch, we should appreciate and take advantage
> of this, that's for sure.
>
> But if you're proposing that people who have neither the experience
> nor the equipment to maintain Win32 code should do so anyway, that
> just doesn't seem realistic to me.
>
> Subversion works well on Unix because more Unix developers
> participate. It works on Win32 to the degree that Win32 developers
> participate (like Brane, et al, bless 'em). No one's
>
> You talk like no one has ever caused a Unix regression, like there's
> some conspiracy to frustrate Win32 developers specifically. There
> isn't. Subversion is just like any other project -- it works where
> people test it. If you want it to work better under Windows, please
> help make that happen.
>
> > I understand that my e-mail here is a little abrasive, but it's a
> > culmination of being fed up for months, dealing with other people who
are
> > now thouroughly convinced that we won't be able to switch to Subversion
for
> > the projects I have been advocating it for due to the seeming lack of
Win32
> > empathy, and a number of mis-starts on an e-mail that voices these very
> > sentiments. I finally gave up when I noticed that a response to the GUI
> > message started turning into that same thread in my head and just wrote
it
> > out.
>
> No one here asked you to deal with those "other people", so don't
> transfer their complaints to this list.
>
> -Karl
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Re: GUI for subversion?
Posted by Karl Fogel <kf...@newton.ch.collab.net>.
"Jay Freeman \(saurik\)" <sa...@saurik.com> writes:
> I'd more like the Unix people to be careful about the Windows builds. When
> new files are added, people should be notified so the build scripts can be
> updated. When more fundamental issues come up (such as the major read-only
> regression that likely still hasn't been fixed), the code should be rolled
> back. There was even a milestone that almost went out a few months ago with
> a Win32 client that couldn't even do a checkout. There was more interest in
> getting the milestone out for the Unix people than getting the patch that I
> had sent in applied to the Win32 build. I am pretty sure it got applied,
> but only because I made an annoying argument to the case.
I notice a lot of passive voice here. "People should be notified",
"The code should be rolled back", ...
Are you volunteering to solve these problems?
If you're upset because you sent in patches which got ignored (which
is justifiable), please post complaining about that issue. When you
do work, like making a patch, we should appreciate and take advantage
of this, that's for sure.
But if you're proposing that people who have neither the experience
nor the equipment to maintain Win32 code should do so anyway, that
just doesn't seem realistic to me.
Subversion works well on Unix because more Unix developers
participate. It works on Win32 to the degree that Win32 developers
participate (like Brane, et al, bless 'em). No one's
You talk like no one has ever caused a Unix regression, like there's
some conspiracy to frustrate Win32 developers specifically. There
isn't. Subversion is just like any other project -- it works where
people test it. If you want it to work better under Windows, please
help make that happen.
> I understand that my e-mail here is a little abrasive, but it's a
> culmination of being fed up for months, dealing with other people who are
> now thouroughly convinced that we won't be able to switch to Subversion for
> the projects I have been advocating it for due to the seeming lack of Win32
> empathy, and a number of mis-starts on an e-mail that voices these very
> sentiments. I finally gave up when I noticed that a response to the GUI
> message started turning into that same thread in my head and just wrote it
> out.
No one here asked you to deal with those "other people", so don't
transfer their complaints to this list.
-Karl
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Re: GUI for subversion?
Posted by "Jay Freeman (saurik)" <sa...@saurik.com>.
Glenn:
I'd more like the Unix people to be careful about the Windows builds. When
new files are added, people should be notified so the build scripts can be
updated. When more fundamental issues come up (such as the major read-only
regression that likely still hasn't been fixed), the code should be rolled
back. There was even a milestone that almost went out a few months ago with
a Win32 client that couldn't even do a checkout. There was more interest in
getting the milestone out for the Unix people than getting the patch that I
had sent in applied to the Win32 build. I am pretty sure it got applied,
but only because I made an annoying argument to the case.
I understand that my e-mail here is a little abrasive, but it's a
culmination of being fed up for months, dealing with other people who are
now thouroughly convinced that we won't be able to switch to Subversion for
the projects I have been advocating it for due to the seeming lack of Win32
empathy, and a number of mis-starts on an e-mail that voices these very
sentiments. I finally gave up when I noticed that a response to the GUI
message started turning into that same thread in my head and just wrote it
out.
Sincerely,
Jay Freeman (saurik)
saurik@saurik.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn A. Thompson" <gt...@cdr.net>
To: "Subversion Dev list" <de...@subversion.tigris.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 3:23 PM
Subject: Re: GUI for subversion?
> Jay,
>
>
> > The "if Windows
> > developers want it to work, they can contribute fixes for it" attitude
was
> > inexcusable to me on a project that claims to be cross platform as well
as
> > specifically listing "Windows" as a target.
>
> You want unix people contributing Windows fixes.
> Why?
>
> > *will have to play with the windows build later today and see if it is
all
> > happiness yet with things like directory moves and deletes (the most
common
> > issues caused by the poorly designed read-only file API in APR that the
Unix
> > people added), case _in_sensitivity in file names (which totally
thrashed a
> > lot of work that a friend of mine did when I gave him access to a
repository
> > and subversion kept silently going insane on the server when he would
fail
> > to type the file names in the same case as they were on the drive), /
vs. \
> > at the command line, and the other long list of things that has been a
known
> > issue since forever*
>
> Yikes!!!!!!!!!!
> Bitter Beer Face :-)
>
>
>
>
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Re: GUI for subversion?
Posted by "Glenn A. Thompson" <gt...@cdr.net>.
Jay,
> The "if Windows
> developers want it to work, they can contribute fixes for it" attitude was
> inexcusable to me on a project that claims to be cross platform as well as
> specifically listing "Windows" as a target.
You want unix people contributing Windows fixes.
Why?
> *will have to play with the windows build later today and see if it is all
> happiness yet with things like directory moves and deletes (the most common
> issues caused by the poorly designed read-only file API in APR that the Unix
> people added), case _in_sensitivity in file names (which totally thrashed a
> lot of work that a friend of mine did when I gave him access to a repository
> and subversion kept silently going insane on the server when he would fail
> to type the file names in the same case as they were on the drive), / vs. \
> at the command line, and the other long list of things that has been a known
> issue since forever*
Yikes!!!!!!!!!!
Bitter Beer Face :-)
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Re: GUI for subversion?
Posted by "Jay Freeman (saurik)" <sa...@saurik.com>.
*got alerted to this thread by a friend who is keeping up with the mailing
list*
I've been working on a subversion shell extension ala Tortoise CVS. Started
it a while back (wow... back early December) and put some time into it
occasionally, but finally put off working on it sometime back in February
until the Windows build actually worked. Really, I pretty much gave up on
any Subversion development at all until I felt that the main Subversion
developers were going to actually prioritize getting it working on Windows
enough to stop adding features and started working on getting the Windows
build doing anything more than the most simple of update and commit
operations (and only if you type the filenames just right). The "if Windows
developers want it to work, they can contribute fixes for it" attitude was
inexcusable to me on a project that claims to be cross platform as well as
specifically listing "Windows" as a target. The main developers didn't even
have Windows boxes to run or compile it on...
The only screenshot I have on hand is one I took to demonstrate my
frustrations a while back with either a bug or a limitation of the API
(forgot which... this one might have even been my fault...):
http://test.saurik.com/unversioned.jpg . The screenshot doesn't demonstrate
much seeing as, at the time, I wasn't able to get valid information for
files from the API.
*will have to play with the windows build later today and see if it is all
happiness yet with things like directory moves and deletes (the most common
issues caused by the poorly designed read-only file API in APR that the Unix
people added), case _in_sensitivity in file names (which totally thrashed a
lot of work that a friend of mine did when I gave him access to a repository
and subversion kept silently going insane on the server when he would fail
to type the file names in the same case as they were on the drive), / vs. \
at the command line, and the other long list of things that has been a known
issue since forever*
Sincerely,
Jay Freeman (saurik)
saurik@saurik.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martijn Boekhorst" <su...@boekhorst.net>
To: <Hu...@masirv.com>
Cc: <de...@subversion.tigris.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: GUI for subversion?
>
> > I am wondering if there will be a GUI for Subversion once it's
> > released, or are you leaving it up to 3rd party development.
> I'm working on a windows one - there was some discussion about a wxWindows
> one, though I lost track, and I believe someone (who?) is asking
> TortoiseCVS if they're interested in developing a svn edition.
> Wether or not I am a 3rd party I don't know. It'll take me quite some time
> before I have anything to show mind you (Think : Month or two).
> Cheers, Martijn.
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Re: GUI for subversion?
Posted by Martijn Boekhorst <su...@boekhorst.net>.
> I am wondering if there will be a GUI for Subversion once it's
> released, or are you leaving it up to 3rd party development.
I'm working on a windows one - there was some discussion about a wxWindows
one, though I lost track, and I believe someone (who?) is asking
TortoiseCVS if they're interested in developing a svn edition.
Wether or not I am a 3rd party I don't know. It'll take me quite some time
before I have anything to show mind you (Think : Month or two).
Cheers, Martijn.
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