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Posted to dev@flex.apache.org by João Saleiro <jo...@webfuel.pt> on 2012/02/06 11:17:25 UTC
Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping SWF
support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
On 06-02-2012 09:54, David Arno wrote:
> I struggle with this philosophy. The idea of spending time writing code to
> then find out whether people like the idea is very alien to me.
I would suggest the creation "working groups" attached to different
initiatives related to Apache Flex. I'm sure yet how much how like this
idea, but considering how big the SDK is, the amount of teamwork and
cooperation needed, and the big number of different initiatives that
will appear (some complementing each other, others completely
disruptive), I would suggest we could arrange a solution that would help
us organize better - creating a working group per initiative could help.
What do I mean by an initiaive? (Fictional) Examples: (1) building the
next minor version of the SDK (2) building the next major version of the
SDK/adding framework-level DI (3) building from scratch a new simpler
SDK meant for exporting to javascript (4) implementing missing Spark
components (5) creating a Spark Scheduling framework (6) [....]
Existing initiatives would be listed in a page on the wiki ("Currently
we're working on:") and each one would have:
(1) a wiki section used by that working group to document progress,
specifications, etc
(2) a list of the people that are/were involved in that initiative
(3) an area in the whiteboard for sharing code that would be imported to
the trunk after accepted
(4) a specific subject [TAG] so it could help everyone organizing the
Mailing List in topics. Another option would be a different Mailing List
for each initiative - it would reduce the S/N level but then it wouldn't
enable coordination between initiatives
Also, while we wait to have everything in our side, I think we could be
doing some progress in:
(1) completing the missing Spark components (Carol, could you share them
in the whiteboard?)
(2) doing some research on what would be needed to create a version of
the SDK meant for cross-compiling to JS. In other words, creating a
checklist what would and wouldn't work, what are the risks, what
features of HTML could we take advantage of, how could we change Spark
architecture so it was optimized for HTML, what to do with embedded
assets, etc
Just my two cents.
João Saleiro
Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping
SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
Posted by João Saleiro <jo...@webfuel.pt>.
On 06-02-2012 10:17, João Saleiro wrote:
>
> I would suggest the creation "working groups" attached to different
> initiatives related to Apache Flex. I'm sure yet how much how like
> this idea, but considering how big the SDK is, the amount of teamwork
> and cooperation needed, and the big number of different
(I'm sorry for the typos on the previous email, I accidentally pressed
Send before reviewing it :o) )
> I would suggest the creation *of* "working groups" attached to
different initiatives related to Apache Flex. I'm *not* sure yet how
much *I* like this idea, but considering how big the SDK is, the amount
of teamwork and cooperation needed, and the big number of different [...]
Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping
SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
Posted by Omar Gonzalez <om...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 7:59 AM, Martin Heidegger <mh...@leichtgewicht.at>wrote:
> On 07/02/2012 00:41, Omar Gonzalez wrote:
>
>> I'd throw my code up on GitHub and start collaborating with devs there
>> until you have something you want to donate or discuss.
>>
> This means you suggest that people do not collaborate here but rather on
> github?
>
>>
>>
What I mean to say is that if you are not a committer, and you want to
share your code with others and collaborate and said code, then you will
need a repository that you can use to coordinate with other devs, whom may
also not be committers, on your same code. I am not saying you must do
this, this is just what I would do if I wanted to collaborate with people
on code I wanted to donate to Apache but I wasn't working directly with a
committer or a committer myself. I would do this until I either a.) became
a committer, or b.) PPMC accepted my donation.
-omar
Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping
SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
Posted by Martin Heidegger <mh...@leichtgewicht.at>.
On 07/02/2012 00:41, Omar Gonzalez wrote:
> I'd throw my code up on GitHub and start collaborating with devs there
> until you have something you want to donate or discuss.
This means you suggest that people do not collaborate here but rather on
github?
> But if we try to discuss every idea, log it to a wiki, recruit devs,
> and then start something then we would never get shit done. -omar
I don't think we need to discuss every idea in the mailing list and in a
wiki. Small ones will definitely fit in Jira just fine. But mailing-list
threads in the length of x-hundred entries are not helping the overview
of the project.
yours
Martin.
Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping
SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
Posted by Omar Gonzalez <om...@gmail.com>.
On Monday, February 6, 2012, Martin Heidegger <mh...@leichtgewicht.at> wrote:
> On 06/02/2012 23:28, Jonathan Campos wrote:
>>
>> Why do you need consensus just to get started?
>
> Just to clearify: I meant "getting the consensus" as in "understanding
what the current consensus on the mailinglist is".
> In other words: Its easy to discuss something on the ml but difficult to
find out what has been discussed about and what the outcome is.
> That is unfortunate for a third party as they will have no idea what is
really talked about.
>
> cheers!
> Martin.
>
I don't see any sensible way to keep a log of everything we've talked
about. Talk is cheap and Apache is a JFDI type of mentality, if you really
want to start on something just fucking do it and when you have code to
talk about, even the smallest bit, then we actually have something to talk
about. If I wasn't a committer I'd throw my code up on GitHub and start
collaborating with devs there until you have something you want to donate
or discuss. But if we try to discuss every idea, log it to a wiki, recruit
devs, and then start something then we would never get shit done.
-omar
Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
Posted by Arnoud Bos <ar...@artim-interactive.nl>.
On Feb 6, 2012, at 6:36 PM, Jeffry Houser wrote:
> On 2/6/2012 12:26 PM, Arnoud Bos wrote:
>> Hi Omar,
>>
>> yes it technically is like a README
>>
>> The difference would be that you don't have to check out files from svn to check what
>> is going on in the different whiteboards.
> I thought that the SVN was web browsable. And presumably you can read a text file w/o checking out code.
>
yes browsable it is! and it's also true is that you can open a README.txt of a whiteboard via the SVN web browse.
but is it easy searchable like a wiki? i cannot find a search form. Maybe i'm missing something but AFAIK you have to wade trough every project
(which will be many i hope!) to find out id someone is working on for example validators in his /her whiteboard. Other option would be
becoming a member of the list of course and ask...
Anyway, in my idea adding a wiki to a whiteboard was about lowering barriers. Finding stuff easy. Maybe i'm lazy :-)
> To me it seems like a lot of work to maintain such info in two places.
>
> --
> Jeffry Houser
> Technical Entrepreneur
> 203-379-0773
> --
> http://www.flextras.com?c=104
> UI Flex Components: Tested! Supported! Ready!
> --
> http://www.theflexshow.com
> http://www.jeffryhouser.com
> http://www.asktheflexpert.com
> --
> Part of the DotComIt Brain Trust
>
Arnoud Bos
Artim interactive
E arnoud@artim-interactive.nl
W www.artim-interactive.nl
T +31 6 246 40 216
A Elisabeth Wolffstraat 77-3
1053TT Amsterdam
Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping
SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
Posted by Omar Gonzalez <om...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 9:36 AM, Jeffry Houser <je...@dot-com-it.com> wrote:
> On 2/6/2012 12:26 PM, Arnoud Bos wrote:
>
>> Hi Omar,
>>
>> yes it technically is like a README
>>
>> The difference would be that you don't have to check out files from svn
>> to check what
>> is going on in the different whiteboards.
>>
> I thought that the SVN was web browsable. And presumably you can read a
> text file w/o checking out code.
>
> To me it seems like a lot of work to maintain such info in two places.
>
> --
> Jeffry Houser
> Technical Entrepreneur
> 203-379-0773
> --
> http://www.flextras.com?c=104
> UI Flex Components: Tested! Supported! Ready!
> --
> http://www.theflexshow.com
> http://www.jeffryhouser.com
> http://www.asktheflexpert.com
> --
> Part of the DotComIt Brain Trust
>
>
Agreed, and yea the repositories are web browseable:
http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/incubator/flex/whiteboard/mschmalle/mobile-popups/README.txt?view=markup
-omar
Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping
SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
Posted by Jeffry Houser <je...@dot-com-it.com>.
On 2/6/2012 12:26 PM, Arnoud Bos wrote:
> Hi Omar,
>
> yes it technically is like a README
>
> The difference would be that you don't have to check out files from svn to check what
> is going on in the different whiteboards.
I thought that the SVN was web browsable. And presumably you can read
a text file w/o checking out code.
To me it seems like a lot of work to maintain such info in two places.
--
Jeffry Houser
Technical Entrepreneur
203-379-0773
--
http://www.flextras.com?c=104
UI Flex Components: Tested! Supported! Ready!
--
http://www.theflexshow.com
http://www.jeffryhouser.com
http://www.asktheflexpert.com
--
Part of the DotComIt Brain Trust
Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
Posted by Arnoud Bos <ar...@artim-interactive.nl>.
Hi Omar,
yes it technically is like a README
The difference would be that you don't have to check out files from svn to check what
is going on in the different whiteboards.
it's just a way to lower the barrier on getting info on the project. Many people are watching
the project. But those that are interested my not do a svn checkout just to see what is happening.
Also might trigger people to join in faster as they might discover something via the wiki of their interest.
As the number of whiteboards will probably grow there will not be an easy way to see what is happening on each one.
I would love to see such low barrier transparency. But it's not a must i agree.
Arnoud
On Feb 6, 2012, at 5:51 PM, Omar Gonzalez wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 8:48 AM, Arnoud Bos <ar...@artim-interactive.nl>wrote:
>
>>
>> On Feb 6, 2012, at 5:03 PM, João Saleiro wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On 06-02-2012 15:44, Jonathan Campos wrote:
>>>> Wouldn't that fit better in the whiteboard folder? Or maybe if we set
>> up a
>>>> wiki by whiteboard folder I would be okay with that.
>>
>> I like this idea a lot
>>
>> It would be great if people could have a standard public wiki page
>> connected to their whiteboard where they can write:
>> - what they are doing,
>> - who is doing it,
>> - why they are doing it,
>> - and their short term / long term plans,
>> - tell about the state of their code (usable, pre-alpha),
>> - basically anything they want to share.
>>
>
> Isn't what you're describing here the contents typically in a README file?
>
> -omar
Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping
SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
Posted by Omar Gonzalez <om...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 8:48 AM, Arnoud Bos <ar...@artim-interactive.nl>wrote:
>
> On Feb 6, 2012, at 5:03 PM, João Saleiro wrote:
>
> >
> > On 06-02-2012 15:44, Jonathan Campos wrote:
> >> Wouldn't that fit better in the whiteboard folder? Or maybe if we set
> up a
> >> wiki by whiteboard folder I would be okay with that.
>
> I like this idea a lot
>
> It would be great if people could have a standard public wiki page
> connected to their whiteboard where they can write:
> - what they are doing,
> - who is doing it,
> - why they are doing it,
> - and their short term / long term plans,
> - tell about the state of their code (usable, pre-alpha),
> - basically anything they want to share.
>
Isn't what you're describing here the contents typically in a README file?
-omar
Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
Posted by Frédéric Thomas <we...@hotmail.com>.
Thank you for that precision, I gonna push my work on github later today
(it's 4:30 AM here).
It still remains something, how to make know and redirect folks who would
like to help if there's no place to do it ?
-----Message d'origine-----
From: Omar Gonzalez
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 10:42 PM
To: flex-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping
SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
On Monday, February 6, 2012, Frédéric Thomas <we...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> Actually, I could put my code on Github and open a discussion on the ML
but I do not think this is the best place because it would talk about very
technical things on a particular sub-project, currently, the topics here
are discussed in a more general way than what I want to be able to
discussed, in more, for newcomers, it is a pain to find out a particular
subject of interest, the wiki seems a good place to start and redirect the
people, but where ?
>
This _is_ the place for technical discussions about Fled SDK. The reason
most discussions have been very top level is because everyone is just
theorizing on different ideas without any code or documents to really
discuss in depth. This is why committers have a whiteboard, and why I
suggest non-committers find a method to collaborate on new ideas, so
they're fleshed out enough to spark real in depth discussions about
things.
-omar
Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping
SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
Posted by Omar Gonzalez <om...@gmail.com>.
On Monday, February 6, 2012, Frédéric Thomas <we...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> Actually, I could put my code on Github and open a discussion on the ML
but I do not think this is the best place because it would talk about very
technical things on a particular sub-project, currently, the topics here
are discussed in a more general way than what I want to be able to
discussed, in more, for newcomers, it is a pain to find out a particular
subject of interest, the wiki seems a good place to start and redirect the
people, but where ?
>
This _is_ the place for technical discussions about Fled SDK. The reason
most discussions have been very top level is because everyone is just
theorizing on different ideas without any code or documents to really
discuss in depth. This is why committers have a whiteboard, and why I
suggest non-committers find a method to collaborate on new ideas, so
they're fleshed out enough to spark real in depth discussions about
things.
-omar
Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
Posted by Frédéric Thomas <we...@hotmail.com>.
Actually, I could put my code on Github and open a discussion on the ML but
I do not think this is the best place because it would talk about very
technical things on a particular sub-project, currently, the topics here are
discussed in a more general way than what I want to be able to discussed, in
more, for newcomers, it is a pain to find out a particular subject of
interest, the wiki seems a good place to start and redirect the people, but
where ?
IMO, there should be a dedicated space, if it is not here, it should at
least be a place not spread as you suggested (that is to say, personal blog
+ repository), but centralized, can be Spoon could bring a solution ? I
don't know, why not, I am registered since the beginning but nothing has yet
been proposed publicly in that direction AFAIK.
-----Message d'origine-----
From: Jeffry Houser
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 8:42 PM
To: flex-dev@incubator.apache.org
Cc: jude
Subject: Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping
SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
On 2/6/2012 1:53 PM, jude wrote:
> I understand completely. I'm not a commiter and I feel like I can't do
> anything.
>
> 2012/2/6 Frédéric Thomas<we...@hotmail.com>
>
>> Hi Arnoud,
>>
>> I aggree, I'm not a commiter but I followed the ML from the start and I'm
>> starting to feel frustrated because not many things have been started,
>> ok,
I just wanted to address these two statements, at least from my point
of view.
To Jude, You can certainly do things. IT may be a bit harder for you
[than a committer] to get it back into the SVN Repostiroy; but you can
get the code and start doing your own development with it somehow.
To Frederic,
What do you want started? And why can't you start?
As far as I understand it; the only limitation on non-committers is
that you can't submit your code back into the Apache SVN repository.
You can still circulate it through other means (You're own blog, GitHub,
or Google Code or whatever you want).
In terms of committers, we all have other responsibilities. I expect
"Flex Next" development will be a slow and steady thing, not a huge
immediate stream of new features or changes.
--
Jeffry Houser
Technical Entrepreneur
203-379-0773
--
http://www.flextras.com?c=104
UI Flex Components: Tested! Supported! Ready!
--
http://www.theflexshow.com
http://www.jeffryhouser.com
http://www.asktheflexpert.com
--
Part of the DotComIt Brain Trust
Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping
SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
Posted by Jeffry Houser <je...@dot-com-it.com>.
On 2/6/2012 1:53 PM, jude wrote:
> I understand completely. I'm not a commiter and I feel like I can't do
> anything.
>
> 2012/2/6 Frédéric Thomas<we...@hotmail.com>
>
>> Hi Arnoud,
>>
>> I aggree, I'm not a commiter but I followed the ML from the start and I'm
>> starting to feel frustrated because not many things have been started, ok,
I just wanted to address these two statements, at least from my point
of view.
To Jude, You can certainly do things. IT may be a bit harder for you
[than a committer] to get it back into the SVN Repostiroy; but you can
get the code and start doing your own development with it somehow.
To Frederic,
What do you want started? And why can't you start?
As far as I understand it; the only limitation on non-committers is
that you can't submit your code back into the Apache SVN repository.
You can still circulate it through other means (You're own blog, GitHub,
or Google Code or whatever you want).
In terms of committers, we all have other responsibilities. I expect
"Flex Next" development will be a slow and steady thing, not a huge
immediate stream of new features or changes.
--
Jeffry Houser
Technical Entrepreneur
203-379-0773
--
http://www.flextras.com?c=104
UI Flex Components: Tested! Supported! Ready!
--
http://www.theflexshow.com
http://www.jeffryhouser.com
http://www.asktheflexpert.com
--
Part of the DotComIt Brain Trust
Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping
SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
Posted by Martin Heidegger <mh...@leichtgewicht.at>.
On 07/02/2012 04:37, Omar Gonzalez wrote:
> ... way things are done at Apache, so trying to allow for that level of
> collaboration doesn't fit the model.
I totally agree! And to me it was very important that you said that! I
had a completely different picture in my mind before that.
> What I think would make finding all of these projects would then to list
> those somewhere...
This is where i could see Spoon jump in. They already want to handle the
community groups. So why not draw a clear line here:
Apache Flex handles the current source code: Input is gathered via Jira
from a bunch of external madness that runs in <insert community
here>(managed by Spoon) where developers can find mentoring in the sense
of: "Your idea is
awesome/out-of-date/inappropriate/duplicate/not-in-shape-yet" and "We
help you find a-fruitful-path/friends/help/a-good-style". Like a global
"pre-submit" arena that works as a community.
> If you do this enough eventually you will end up
> getting voted in as a new committer and then you can work directly in your
> own whiteboard.
Why would I use the whiteboard as a commiter? Isn't it bad for
sharing/collaborating with non-commiters?
In short: I would love to have a good place where I could talk about
ideas related to the flex sdk and have my code also posted -
collaborate. For that I would need something that is good at this ...
like github. With another "management central" somewhere that knows what
is roughly going on. Spoon.as sounds better for that than Apache.
yours
Martin.
Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping
SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
Posted by Omar Gonzalez <om...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 11:27 AM, Martin Heidegger <mh...@leichtgewicht.at>wrote:
> The workflow is okay to me. I just came to the conclusion that we don't
> have a good platform here to talk about code that might not be commited
> (what is momentarily done in the whiteboard folder. I think omars
> suggestion to do this sort of community work "not here" is not a bad idea.
> The day before yesterday
> Spoon.as team said that they want to do community work (like listing the
> things that are going on). I think that Spoon.as could jump in and give
> those rants a place to feel home.
>
> yours
> Martin.
>
>
Its not so much that we can't have discussions about code here, this is
where we should be having those discussions. The thing is that with
something like a whiteboard where you want to develop ideas in an adhoc
manner where you are open to accept code patches/commits from anyone that
wants to including non-committers than you need a way to manage all of
that. Giving SVN access to thousands of developers is just not the way
things are done at Apache, so trying to allow for that level of
collaboration doesn't fit the model.
However, as a non-committer, this is exactly why I would turn to GitHub. On
GitHub you have the ability to include anyone as you see fit and
collaborate with as many people as you want. There are facilities for
sending and receiving patch requests, code reviews, messaging between devs,
etc, that can be easily managed by you without the overhead of having to
try to add hundreds if not thousands of SVN committers to the Apache
repository. Once you have an idea fleshed out to a point where it can be
discussed you can create Gists on GitHub or commit examples and everyone
can discuss it on the mailing list if you a.) need feedback from the entire
community, or b.) want to contribute it to the Apache Flex repository
because you've set up an idea far enough where we can bring it in to the
SDK. You would have Wikis to add as much info and documentation as you
want, collaboratively, easily as well.
What I think would make finding all of these projects would then to list
those somewhere on the Apache Flex site as maybe an ideas in progress
section or something along those lines that indicates here are a bunch of
community projects in progress that are trying to solidify themselves
enough to get included either into a committer's whiteboard or as a
donation to the SDK. If you do this enough eventually you will end up
getting voted in as a new committer and then you can work directly in your
own whiteboard.
This is just my understanding of how Apache works and what I would do if I
had not been selected as a committer from the start. As they say, just my
.02.
-omar
>
>
>
>
> On 07/02/2012 04:11, João Fernandes wrote:
>
>> Am I the only non-committer that finds the current Apache workflow
>> acceptable?
>>
>> Whiteboards should only be managed by PPMC in my opinion and
>> non-committers
>> should propose patches to existing whiteboards. If there isn't any
>> whiteboard working on what they want to contribute, they should create
>> some
>> repository (github or svn) elsewhere and announce in the mailinglist to
>> see
>> if there are people interested in working in the same project.
>>
>> I agree that eventually a list of "community whiteboards" could be listed
>> in the flex wiki page as long it doesn't become a burden to maintain.
>>
>> João Fernandes
>>
>>
>
Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping
SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
Posted by Martin Heidegger <mh...@leichtgewicht.at>.
The workflow is okay to me. I just came to the conclusion that we don't
have a good platform here to talk about code that might not be commited
(what is momentarily done in the whiteboard folder. I think omars
suggestion to do this sort of community work "not here" is not a bad
idea. The day before yesterday
Spoon.as team said that they want to do community work (like listing the
things that are going on). I think that Spoon.as could jump in and give
those rants a place to feel home.
yours
Martin.
On 07/02/2012 04:11, João Fernandes wrote:
> Am I the only non-committer that finds the current Apache workflow
> acceptable?
>
> Whiteboards should only be managed by PPMC in my opinion and non-committers
> should propose patches to existing whiteboards. If there isn't any
> whiteboard working on what they want to contribute, they should create some
> repository (github or svn) elsewhere and announce in the mailinglist to see
> if there are people interested in working in the same project.
>
> I agree that eventually a list of "community whiteboards" could be listed
> in the flex wiki page as long it doesn't become a burden to maintain.
>
> João Fernandes
>
Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping
SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
Posted by Omar Gonzalez <om...@gmail.com>.
2012/2/6 João Fernandes <jo...@gmail.com>
> Am I the only non-committer that finds the current Apache workflow
> acceptable?
>
> Whiteboards should only be managed by PPMC in my opinion and non-committers
> should propose patches to existing whiteboards. If there isn't any
> whiteboard working on what they want to contribute, they should create some
> repository (github or svn) elsewhere and announce in the mailinglist to see
> if there are people interested in working in the same project.
>
> I agree that eventually a list of "community whiteboards" could be listed
> in the flex wiki page as long it doesn't become a burden to maintain.
>
> João Fernandes
>
I agree with you Joao, if you use GitHub you'll have everything you need to
collaborate with as many people as you want to get an idea going. You can
recruit teammates on this list. Develop your idea, make wikis, log issues,
manage features, wishlists, and when a project is at a state where you want
to donate you can, or if you want to review it anyone in the community can.
Once something gets voted in by PPMC as a donation we can bring it into a
whiteboard or the SDK, depending on how that pans out. But if I were not a
committer, I would have posted my validators on GitHub instead of the
Apache repository and posted on this list to get feedback, recruit team
members and get it to where I can donate it.
-omar
Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping
SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
Posted by João Fernandes <jo...@gmail.com>.
Am I the only non-committer that finds the current Apache workflow
acceptable?
Whiteboards should only be managed by PPMC in my opinion and non-committers
should propose patches to existing whiteboards. If there isn't any
whiteboard working on what they want to contribute, they should create some
repository (github or svn) elsewhere and announce in the mailinglist to see
if there are people interested in working in the same project.
I agree that eventually a list of "community whiteboards" could be listed
in the flex wiki page as long it doesn't become a burden to maintain.
João Fernandes
Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping
SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
Posted by jude <fl...@gmail.com>.
Long delayed response... Sounds good.
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 4:07 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
<bd...@apache.org>wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 7:53 PM, jude <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > ...We need a wiki that allows people to contribute to it, we need a blog
> > updated so people can stay up to date without being on the mailing list,
> we
> > need a FAQ to answer questions we've had before, we need to allow
> > non-commiters to have white boards to start projects and contribute code
> to
> > work with teams (not a limited Jira ticket), we need roadmaps and
> > directions and plans and project descriptions and use cases...
>
> If you feel you need something from this project, requests buried in
> this thread might not get the attention of people who can make it
> happen.
>
> Starting a new thread, using a precise Subject line that expresses
> what you're about, and addressing one topic per mail thread might
> help.
>
> -Bertrand
>
Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping
SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 7:53 PM, jude <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...We need a wiki that allows people to contribute to it, we need a blog
> updated so people can stay up to date without being on the mailing list, we
> need a FAQ to answer questions we've had before, we need to allow
> non-commiters to have white boards to start projects and contribute code to
> work with teams (not a limited Jira ticket), we need roadmaps and
> directions and plans and project descriptions and use cases...
If you feel you need something from this project, requests buried in
this thread might not get the attention of people who can make it
happen.
Starting a new thread, using a precise Subject line that expresses
what you're about, and addressing one topic per mail thread might
help.
-Bertrand
Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping
SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
Posted by Jonathan Campos <jo...@gmail.com>.
We created something similar to that for the bugquash and have thought
about reviving it for this. We are making sure not to spread ourselves too
thin. You could always join up with spoon and take the lead on that.
Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping
SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
Posted by jude <fl...@gmail.com>.
I should have prefaced that with "rant". The thing is it isn't just the
source code. It's the previous Adobe Flex project and now it's the Apache
Flex project. It's the early stages of the project and there are people
that want to help set it up, to take time out of their day, to make more
accessible to themselves and others in the future.
So they want to help but they can't. And they get exhausted and they get
deterred and they try to explain this and they get deterred again. :P
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:57 PM, Martin Heidegger <mh...@leichtgewicht.at>wrote:
> Right about now we should all be feeling like we bark at the wrong tree.
> Perhaps we should leave apache alone and bother it just with stuff that is
> related to source code and nothing else. I am fine with that! Perhaps
> Spoon.as might jump in and provide a community/networking service? Anyone
> from Spoon reading?
>
> yours
> Martin.
>
>
> On 07/02/2012 03:53, jude wrote:
>
>> I understand completely. I'm not a commiter and I feel like I can't do
>> anything.
>>
>> We need a wiki that allows people to contribute to it, we need a blog
>> updated so people can stay up to date without being on the mailing list,
>> we
>> need a FAQ to answer questions we've had before, we need to allow
>> non-commiters to have white boards to start projects and contribute code
>> to
>> work with teams (not a limited Jira ticket), we need roadmaps and
>> directions and plans and project descriptions and use cases. The no
>> roadmap
>> thing is confusing. We need them and good planning and organization. If
>> you
>> don't finish it on time or no one works on it then so what. It's an open
>> source project. People can ask why and figure out what needs to happen to
>> make it work.
>>
>> We need to allow the community to help instead of deter them every time
>> someone offers a way to make it easier for them to help.
>>
>> 2012/2/6 Frédéric Thomas<webdoublefx@hotmail.com**>
>>
>> Hi Arnoud,
>>>
>>> I aggree, I'm not a commiter but I followed the ML from the start and I'm
>>> starting to feel frustrated because not many things have been started,
>>> ok,
>>> we haven't got any test framework at the moment and the JIRA is not
>>> completly imported yet, but still, let's start something, at least to
>>> avoid
>>> that the community to be sucks by this slow process of putting everything
>>> in place, I'm sure many people wants to start something but they can't
>>> because they're not commiters and the process to skim the all ML to find
>>> pieces of conversions about the subjects they interrested too is just a
>>> pain.
>>>
>>> The idea of a wiki where folks can pick up informations on what is going
>>> on in term of sub-projects, roadmap, staters or whatever you want to call
>>> it, and proposed by the commiters, is a good starting point to go
>>> further,
>>> like that, if they adhere to it and they've got the opportunity to
>>> propose
>>> their contribution on the particular topics they like, this will
>>> re-inflated their heart and faith around of Flex, for now, I feel like
>>> being handcuffed because nothing is done for us in order to participate,
>>> I
>>> started things on my side, but without the possibility of sharing ideas
>>> or
>>> code on a particular topic in a dedicated place is very frustrating.
>>>
>>> Many subject of developement have been discussed and not all of them are
>>> in whiteboards or wiki at the moment, many of them have just been left
>>> out
>>> or are still in argumentation if we should or not develop it, even if
>>> it's
>>> good to talk with everyone about a direction to take and realized early
>>> if
>>> things are not good at all or simply don't federate anyone, it seems to
>>> be
>>> a stopper because you haven't got anything except the ML and the
>>> whiteboard.
>>>
>>> For exemple, I started to explore the possibilities to split the
>>> UIComponent in beharviors, given the subject is interesting and has been
>>> launched few weeks ago, now I've got my code (not finished yet), but I
>>> can't see anyone and no places where to discussed the topic or the code,
>>> worst, the people who launched the subject and were interested to do
>>> something, doesn't communicate on it anymore, a wiki page or a blog would
>>> have been a good place for those who wanted to be involved.
>>>
>>> An early involvement of the community is nescessary IMO unless you want
>>> to
>>> let the enthusiasm fall back.
>>>
>>>
>>> An other point as well, time ago, in the ML, we talked about to use the
>>> wiki to show to people how to build the sdk, do a mavenization and so on,
>>> nothing happened, not even with that. Is it possibile to do it now we've
>>> got a wiki ?
>>>
>>> (Sorry for my english, I hope I've been be clear enough anyway)
>>>
>>> -----Message d'origine----- From: Arnoud Bos
>>> Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 5:48 PM
>>> To: flex-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>> Subject: Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion -
>>> dumping SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 6, 2012, at 5:03 PM, João Saleiro wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 06-02-2012 15:44, Jonathan Campos wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Wouldn't that fit better in the whiteboard folder? Or maybe if we set
>>>>> up
>>>>> a
>>>>> wiki by whiteboard folder I would be okay with that.
>>>>>
>>>>> I like this idea a lot
>>>
>>> It would be great if people could have a standard public wiki page
>>> connected to their whiteboard where they can write:
>>> - what they are doing,
>>> - who is doing it,
>>> - why they are doing it,
>>> - and their short term / long term plans,
>>> - tell about the state of their code (usable, pre-alpha),
>>> - basically anything they want to share.
>>>
>>> This page would be editable by the whiteboard owner without having to go
>>> through voting stuff, consensus etc on what they want to write there.
>>> that's why it's a white board.....
>>>
>>> a) It could prevent duplicate efforts of solving issues and
>>> b) it might be easier help to bring people with the same expertise
>>> together creating better solutions.
>>>
>>> Of course it NOT be obligatory to maintain such a page for each
>>> whiteboard, but offering the possibility to do seems great.
>>>
>>> Then a central wiki page that links to the different whiteboard wiki
>>> pages
>>> that have been created could help anyone interested to get a quick
>>> view on what's going on in the project.
>>>
>>> This seems much more accessible to me than a high traffic mailinglist or
>>> checking out the trunk and wading trough the code to maybe find something
>>> of interest for you.
>>>
>>> Example: i checked out the whiteboards and see that Tink is doing some
>>> great work on navigators
>>> and layouts. For people just browsing trough the wiki this could be
>>> valueable info.
>>>
>>>
>>> My issue is the
>>>
>>>> "officialness" of a wiki saying "this is what we are doing in this way"
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, that's more or less a step towards of what I mean. A wiki per
>>>> whiteboard folder would help. And when someone suggests having "feature
>>>> X"
>>>> added to Flex, either we explain how can that person create a whiteboard
>>>> folder, or we indicate the url of the wiki of an existing whiteboard
>>>> folder
>>>> (instead of just answering "I agree", "I disagree").
>>>> I think there should be a base structure for each wiki, that indicates
>>>> motivation for that feature, short roadmap, people involved, etc.
>>>>
>>>> And I completely agree with your concerns of the "officialness" of a
>>>> wiki. We should list existing initiatives, but they cannot be
>>>> communicated
>>>> them as "official" directions.
>>>>
>>>> João Saleiro
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Met vriendelijke groet,
>>>
>>> Arnoud Bos
>>> Artim interactive
>>>
>>> E arnoud@artim-interactive.nl
>>> W www.artim-interactive.nl
>>> T +31 6 246 40 216
>>> A Elisabeth Wolffstraat 77-3
>>> 1053TT Amsterdam
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping
SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
Posted by Martin Heidegger <mh...@leichtgewicht.at>.
Right about now we should all be feeling like we bark at the wrong tree.
Perhaps we should leave apache alone and bother it just with stuff that
is related to source code and nothing else. I am fine with that! Perhaps
Spoon.as might jump in and provide a community/networking service?
Anyone from Spoon reading?
yours
Martin.
On 07/02/2012 03:53, jude wrote:
> I understand completely. I'm not a commiter and I feel like I can't do
> anything.
>
> We need a wiki that allows people to contribute to it, we need a blog
> updated so people can stay up to date without being on the mailing list, we
> need a FAQ to answer questions we've had before, we need to allow
> non-commiters to have white boards to start projects and contribute code to
> work with teams (not a limited Jira ticket), we need roadmaps and
> directions and plans and project descriptions and use cases. The no roadmap
> thing is confusing. We need them and good planning and organization. If you
> don't finish it on time or no one works on it then so what. It's an open
> source project. People can ask why and figure out what needs to happen to
> make it work.
>
> We need to allow the community to help instead of deter them every time
> someone offers a way to make it easier for them to help.
>
> 2012/2/6 Frédéric Thomas<we...@hotmail.com>
>
>> Hi Arnoud,
>>
>> I aggree, I'm not a commiter but I followed the ML from the start and I'm
>> starting to feel frustrated because not many things have been started, ok,
>> we haven't got any test framework at the moment and the JIRA is not
>> completly imported yet, but still, let's start something, at least to avoid
>> that the community to be sucks by this slow process of putting everything
>> in place, I'm sure many people wants to start something but they can't
>> because they're not commiters and the process to skim the all ML to find
>> pieces of conversions about the subjects they interrested too is just a
>> pain.
>>
>> The idea of a wiki where folks can pick up informations on what is going
>> on in term of sub-projects, roadmap, staters or whatever you want to call
>> it, and proposed by the commiters, is a good starting point to go further,
>> like that, if they adhere to it and they've got the opportunity to propose
>> their contribution on the particular topics they like, this will
>> re-inflated their heart and faith around of Flex, for now, I feel like
>> being handcuffed because nothing is done for us in order to participate, I
>> started things on my side, but without the possibility of sharing ideas or
>> code on a particular topic in a dedicated place is very frustrating.
>>
>> Many subject of developement have been discussed and not all of them are
>> in whiteboards or wiki at the moment, many of them have just been left out
>> or are still in argumentation if we should or not develop it, even if it's
>> good to talk with everyone about a direction to take and realized early if
>> things are not good at all or simply don't federate anyone, it seems to be
>> a stopper because you haven't got anything except the ML and the whiteboard.
>>
>> For exemple, I started to explore the possibilities to split the
>> UIComponent in beharviors, given the subject is interesting and has been
>> launched few weeks ago, now I've got my code (not finished yet), but I
>> can't see anyone and no places where to discussed the topic or the code,
>> worst, the people who launched the subject and were interested to do
>> something, doesn't communicate on it anymore, a wiki page or a blog would
>> have been a good place for those who wanted to be involved.
>>
>> An early involvement of the community is nescessary IMO unless you want to
>> let the enthusiasm fall back.
>>
>>
>> An other point as well, time ago, in the ML, we talked about to use the
>> wiki to show to people how to build the sdk, do a mavenization and so on,
>> nothing happened, not even with that. Is it possibile to do it now we've
>> got a wiki ?
>>
>> (Sorry for my english, I hope I've been be clear enough anyway)
>>
>> -----Message d'origine----- From: Arnoud Bos
>> Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 5:48 PM
>> To: flex-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion -
>> dumping SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 6, 2012, at 5:03 PM, João Saleiro wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On 06-02-2012 15:44, Jonathan Campos wrote:
>>>
>>>> Wouldn't that fit better in the whiteboard folder? Or maybe if we set up
>>>> a
>>>> wiki by whiteboard folder I would be okay with that.
>>>>
>> I like this idea a lot
>>
>> It would be great if people could have a standard public wiki page
>> connected to their whiteboard where they can write:
>> - what they are doing,
>> - who is doing it,
>> - why they are doing it,
>> - and their short term / long term plans,
>> - tell about the state of their code (usable, pre-alpha),
>> - basically anything they want to share.
>>
>> This page would be editable by the whiteboard owner without having to go
>> through voting stuff, consensus etc on what they want to write there.
>> that's why it's a white board.....
>>
>> a) It could prevent duplicate efforts of solving issues and
>> b) it might be easier help to bring people with the same expertise
>> together creating better solutions.
>>
>> Of course it NOT be obligatory to maintain such a page for each
>> whiteboard, but offering the possibility to do seems great.
>>
>> Then a central wiki page that links to the different whiteboard wiki pages
>> that have been created could help anyone interested to get a quick
>> view on what's going on in the project.
>>
>> This seems much more accessible to me than a high traffic mailinglist or
>> checking out the trunk and wading trough the code to maybe find something
>> of interest for you.
>>
>> Example: i checked out the whiteboards and see that Tink is doing some
>> great work on navigators
>> and layouts. For people just browsing trough the wiki this could be
>> valueable info.
>>
>>
>> My issue is the
>>>> "officialness" of a wiki saying "this is what we are doing in this way"
>>>>
>>> Yes, that's more or less a step towards of what I mean. A wiki per
>>> whiteboard folder would help. And when someone suggests having "feature X"
>>> added to Flex, either we explain how can that person create a whiteboard
>>> folder, or we indicate the url of the wiki of an existing whiteboard folder
>>> (instead of just answering "I agree", "I disagree").
>>> I think there should be a base structure for each wiki, that indicates
>>> motivation for that feature, short roadmap, people involved, etc.
>>>
>>> And I completely agree with your concerns of the "officialness" of a
>>> wiki. We should list existing initiatives, but they cannot be communicated
>>> them as "official" directions.
>>>
>>> João Saleiro
>>>
>>>
>> Met vriendelijke groet,
>>
>> Arnoud Bos
>> Artim interactive
>>
>> E arnoud@artim-interactive.nl
>> W www.artim-interactive.nl
>> T +31 6 246 40 216
>> A Elisabeth Wolffstraat 77-3
>> 1053TT Amsterdam
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping
SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
Posted by jude <fl...@gmail.com>.
I understand completely. I'm not a commiter and I feel like I can't do
anything.
We need a wiki that allows people to contribute to it, we need a blog
updated so people can stay up to date without being on the mailing list, we
need a FAQ to answer questions we've had before, we need to allow
non-commiters to have white boards to start projects and contribute code to
work with teams (not a limited Jira ticket), we need roadmaps and
directions and plans and project descriptions and use cases. The no roadmap
thing is confusing. We need them and good planning and organization. If you
don't finish it on time or no one works on it then so what. It's an open
source project. People can ask why and figure out what needs to happen to
make it work.
We need to allow the community to help instead of deter them every time
someone offers a way to make it easier for them to help.
2012/2/6 Frédéric Thomas <we...@hotmail.com>
> Hi Arnoud,
>
> I aggree, I'm not a commiter but I followed the ML from the start and I'm
> starting to feel frustrated because not many things have been started, ok,
> we haven't got any test framework at the moment and the JIRA is not
> completly imported yet, but still, let's start something, at least to avoid
> that the community to be sucks by this slow process of putting everything
> in place, I'm sure many people wants to start something but they can't
> because they're not commiters and the process to skim the all ML to find
> pieces of conversions about the subjects they interrested too is just a
> pain.
>
> The idea of a wiki where folks can pick up informations on what is going
> on in term of sub-projects, roadmap, staters or whatever you want to call
> it, and proposed by the commiters, is a good starting point to go further,
> like that, if they adhere to it and they've got the opportunity to propose
> their contribution on the particular topics they like, this will
> re-inflated their heart and faith around of Flex, for now, I feel like
> being handcuffed because nothing is done for us in order to participate, I
> started things on my side, but without the possibility of sharing ideas or
> code on a particular topic in a dedicated place is very frustrating.
>
> Many subject of developement have been discussed and not all of them are
> in whiteboards or wiki at the moment, many of them have just been left out
> or are still in argumentation if we should or not develop it, even if it's
> good to talk with everyone about a direction to take and realized early if
> things are not good at all or simply don't federate anyone, it seems to be
> a stopper because you haven't got anything except the ML and the whiteboard.
>
> For exemple, I started to explore the possibilities to split the
> UIComponent in beharviors, given the subject is interesting and has been
> launched few weeks ago, now I've got my code (not finished yet), but I
> can't see anyone and no places where to discussed the topic or the code,
> worst, the people who launched the subject and were interested to do
> something, doesn't communicate on it anymore, a wiki page or a blog would
> have been a good place for those who wanted to be involved.
>
> An early involvement of the community is nescessary IMO unless you want to
> let the enthusiasm fall back.
>
>
> An other point as well, time ago, in the ML, we talked about to use the
> wiki to show to people how to build the sdk, do a mavenization and so on,
> nothing happened, not even with that. Is it possibile to do it now we've
> got a wiki ?
>
> (Sorry for my english, I hope I've been be clear enough anyway)
>
> -----Message d'origine----- From: Arnoud Bos
> Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 5:48 PM
> To: flex-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion -
> dumping SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
>
>
>
> On Feb 6, 2012, at 5:03 PM, João Saleiro wrote:
>
>
>> On 06-02-2012 15:44, Jonathan Campos wrote:
>>
>>> Wouldn't that fit better in the whiteboard folder? Or maybe if we set up
>>> a
>>> wiki by whiteboard folder I would be okay with that.
>>>
>>
> I like this idea a lot
>
> It would be great if people could have a standard public wiki page
> connected to their whiteboard where they can write:
> - what they are doing,
> - who is doing it,
> - why they are doing it,
> - and their short term / long term plans,
> - tell about the state of their code (usable, pre-alpha),
> - basically anything they want to share.
>
> This page would be editable by the whiteboard owner without having to go
> through voting stuff, consensus etc on what they want to write there.
> that's why it's a white board.....
>
> a) It could prevent duplicate efforts of solving issues and
> b) it might be easier help to bring people with the same expertise
> together creating better solutions.
>
> Of course it NOT be obligatory to maintain such a page for each
> whiteboard, but offering the possibility to do seems great.
>
> Then a central wiki page that links to the different whiteboard wiki pages
> that have been created could help anyone interested to get a quick
> view on what's going on in the project.
>
> This seems much more accessible to me than a high traffic mailinglist or
> checking out the trunk and wading trough the code to maybe find something
> of interest for you.
>
> Example: i checked out the whiteboards and see that Tink is doing some
> great work on navigators
> and layouts. For people just browsing trough the wiki this could be
> valueable info.
>
>
> My issue is the
>>> "officialness" of a wiki saying "this is what we are doing in this way"
>>>
>>
>> Yes, that's more or less a step towards of what I mean. A wiki per
>> whiteboard folder would help. And when someone suggests having "feature X"
>> added to Flex, either we explain how can that person create a whiteboard
>> folder, or we indicate the url of the wiki of an existing whiteboard folder
>> (instead of just answering "I agree", "I disagree").
>> I think there should be a base structure for each wiki, that indicates
>> motivation for that feature, short roadmap, people involved, etc.
>>
>> And I completely agree with your concerns of the "officialness" of a
>> wiki. We should list existing initiatives, but they cannot be communicated
>> them as "official" directions.
>>
>> João Saleiro
>>
>>
> Met vriendelijke groet,
>
> Arnoud Bos
> Artim interactive
>
> E arnoud@artim-interactive.nl
> W www.artim-interactive.nl
> T +31 6 246 40 216
> A Elisabeth Wolffstraat 77-3
> 1053TT Amsterdam
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
Posted by Frédéric Thomas <we...@hotmail.com>.
Hi Arnoud,
I aggree, I'm not a commiter but I followed the ML from the start and I'm
starting to feel frustrated because not many things have been started, ok,
we haven't got any test framework at the moment and the JIRA is not
completly imported yet, but still, let's start something, at least to avoid
that the community to be sucks by this slow process of putting everything in
place, I'm sure many people wants to start something but they can't because
they're not commiters and the process to skim the all ML to find pieces of
conversions about the subjects they interrested too is just a pain.
The idea of a wiki where folks can pick up informations on what is going on
in term of sub-projects, roadmap, staters or whatever you want to call it,
and proposed by the commiters, is a good starting point to go further, like
that, if they adhere to it and they've got the opportunity to propose their
contribution on the particular topics they like, this will re-inflated their
heart and faith around of Flex, for now, I feel like being handcuffed
because nothing is done for us in order to participate, I started things on
my side, but without the possibility of sharing ideas or code on a
particular topic in a dedicated place is very frustrating.
Many subject of developement have been discussed and not all of them are in
whiteboards or wiki at the moment, many of them have just been left out or
are still in argumentation if we should or not develop it, even if it's good
to talk with everyone about a direction to take and realized early if things
are not good at all or simply don't federate anyone, it seems to be a
stopper because you haven't got anything except the ML and the whiteboard.
For exemple, I started to explore the possibilities to split the UIComponent
in beharviors, given the subject is interesting and has been launched few
weeks ago, now I've got my code (not finished yet), but I can't see anyone
and no places where to discussed the topic or the code, worst, the people
who launched the subject and were interested to do something, doesn't
communicate on it anymore, a wiki page or a blog would have been a good
place for those who wanted to be involved.
An early involvement of the community is nescessary IMO unless you want to
let the enthusiasm fall back.
An other point as well, time ago, in the ML, we talked about to use the wiki
to show to people how to build the sdk, do a mavenization and so on, nothing
happened, not even with that. Is it possibile to do it now we've got a wiki
?
(Sorry for my english, I hope I've been be clear enough anyway)
-----Message d'origine-----
From: Arnoud Bos
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 5:48 PM
To: flex-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping
SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
On Feb 6, 2012, at 5:03 PM, João Saleiro wrote:
>
> On 06-02-2012 15:44, Jonathan Campos wrote:
>> Wouldn't that fit better in the whiteboard folder? Or maybe if we set up
>> a
>> wiki by whiteboard folder I would be okay with that.
I like this idea a lot
It would be great if people could have a standard public wiki page connected
to their whiteboard where they can write:
- what they are doing,
- who is doing it,
- why they are doing it,
- and their short term / long term plans,
- tell about the state of their code (usable, pre-alpha),
- basically anything they want to share.
This page would be editable by the whiteboard owner without having to go
through voting stuff, consensus etc on what they want to write there. that's
why it's a white board.....
a) It could prevent duplicate efforts of solving issues and
b) it might be easier help to bring people with the same expertise together
creating better solutions.
Of course it NOT be obligatory to maintain such a page for each whiteboard,
but offering the possibility to do seems great.
Then a central wiki page that links to the different whiteboard wiki pages
that have been created could help anyone interested to get a quick
view on what's going on in the project.
This seems much more accessible to me than a high traffic mailinglist or
checking out the trunk and wading trough the code to maybe find something of
interest for you.
Example: i checked out the whiteboards and see that Tink is doing some great
work on navigators
and layouts. For people just browsing trough the wiki this could be
valueable info.
>> My issue is the
>> "officialness" of a wiki saying "this is what we are doing in this way"
>
> Yes, that's more or less a step towards of what I mean. A wiki per
> whiteboard folder would help. And when someone suggests having "feature X"
> added to Flex, either we explain how can that person create a whiteboard
> folder, or we indicate the url of the wiki of an existing whiteboard
> folder (instead of just answering "I agree", "I disagree").
> I think there should be a base structure for each wiki, that indicates
> motivation for that feature, short roadmap, people involved, etc.
>
> And I completely agree with your concerns of the "officialness" of a wiki.
> We should list existing initiatives, but they cannot be communicated them
> as "official" directions.
>
> João Saleiro
>
Met vriendelijke groet,
Arnoud Bos
Artim interactive
E arnoud@artim-interactive.nl
W www.artim-interactive.nl
T +31 6 246 40 216
A Elisabeth Wolffstraat 77-3
1053TT Amsterdam
Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
Posted by Arnoud Bos <ar...@artim-interactive.nl>.
On Feb 6, 2012, at 5:03 PM, João Saleiro wrote:
>
> On 06-02-2012 15:44, Jonathan Campos wrote:
>> Wouldn't that fit better in the whiteboard folder? Or maybe if we set up a
>> wiki by whiteboard folder I would be okay with that.
I like this idea a lot
It would be great if people could have a standard public wiki page connected to their whiteboard where they can write:
- what they are doing,
- who is doing it,
- why they are doing it,
- and their short term / long term plans,
- tell about the state of their code (usable, pre-alpha),
- basically anything they want to share.
This page would be editable by the whiteboard owner without having to go through voting stuff, consensus etc on what they want to write there. that's why it's a white board.....
a) It could prevent duplicate efforts of solving issues and
b) it might be easier help to bring people with the same expertise together creating better solutions.
Of course it NOT be obligatory to maintain such a page for each whiteboard, but offering the possibility to do seems great.
Then a central wiki page that links to the different whiteboard wiki pages that have been created could help anyone interested to get a quick
view on what's going on in the project.
This seems much more accessible to me than a high traffic mailinglist or checking out the trunk and wading trough the code to maybe find something of interest for you.
Example: i checked out the whiteboards and see that Tink is doing some great work on navigators
and layouts. For people just browsing trough the wiki this could be valueable info.
>> My issue is the
>> "officialness" of a wiki saying "this is what we are doing in this way"
>
> Yes, that's more or less a step towards of what I mean. A wiki per whiteboard folder would help. And when someone suggests having "feature X" added to Flex, either we explain how can that person create a whiteboard folder, or we indicate the url of the wiki of an existing whiteboard folder (instead of just answering "I agree", "I disagree").
> I think there should be a base structure for each wiki, that indicates motivation for that feature, short roadmap, people involved, etc.
>
> And I completely agree with your concerns of the "officialness" of a wiki. We should list existing initiatives, but they cannot be communicated them as "official" directions.
>
> João Saleiro
>
Met vriendelijke groet,
Arnoud Bos
Artim interactive
E arnoud@artim-interactive.nl
W www.artim-interactive.nl
T +31 6 246 40 216
A Elisabeth Wolffstraat 77-3
1053TT Amsterdam
Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping
SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
Posted by João Saleiro <jo...@webfuel.pt>.
On 06-02-2012 15:44, Jonathan Campos wrote:
> Wouldn't that fit better in the whiteboard folder? Or maybe if we set up a
> wiki by whiteboard folder I would be okay with that. My issue is the
> "officialness" of a wiki saying "this is what we are doing in this way"
Yes, that's more or less a step towards of what I mean. A wiki per
whiteboard folder would help. And when someone suggests having "feature
X" added to Flex, either we explain how can that person create a
whiteboard folder, or we indicate the url of the wiki of an existing
whiteboard folder (instead of just answering "I agree", "I disagree").
I think there should be a base structure for each wiki, that indicates
motivation for that feature, short roadmap, people involved, etc.
And I completely agree with your concerns of the "officialness" of a
wiki. We should list existing initiatives, but they cannot be
communicated them as "official" directions.
João Saleiro
Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping
SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
Posted by Jonathan Campos <jo...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 8:41 AM, Martin Heidegger <mh...@leichtgewicht.at>wrote:
> In other words: Its easy to discuss something on the ml but difficult to
> find out what has been discussed about and what the outcome is.
> That is unfortunate for a third party as they will have no idea what is
> really talked about.
>
Wouldn't that fit better in the whiteboard folder? Or maybe if we set up a
wiki by whiteboard folder I would be okay with that. My issue is the
"officialness" of a wiki saying "this is what we are doing in this way" and
someone feeling that since their idea doesn't fit in that way that they
shouldn't get started.
--
Jonathan Campos
Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping
SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
Posted by Martin Heidegger <mh...@leichtgewicht.at>.
On 06/02/2012 23:28, Jonathan Campos wrote:
> Why do you need consensus just to get started?
Just to clearify: I meant "getting the consensus" as in "understanding
what the current consensus on the mailinglist is".
In other words: Its easy to discuss something on the ml but difficult to
find out what has been discussed about and what the outcome is.
That is unfortunate for a third party as they will have no idea what is
really talked about.
cheers!
Martin.
Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping
SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
Posted by João Saleiro <jo...@webfuel.pt>.
On 06-02-2012 14:28, Jonathan Campos wrote:
> Why do you need consensus just to get started? I think this thinking on the
> ml is continually crippling are our output.
I started this discussion to see if it was possible to provide
"sandboxes" to each separate initiative, so groups of people can
organize around each initiative. Since there is not a common roadmap and
anyone can have their own idea, many people will be pushing Flex in
their different directions (which is a good thing).
The current model is nice if there is no disruption from what we have
and everyone is creating small features here and there. But I currently
see people wanting to invest time in completely parallel ideas: (1)
Making Flex reach 4.7 (2) Refactoring the framework to make it more
lightweight and modular - Flex 5? (3) Researching and implementing
solutions for exporting the existing SDK to JS/HTML5 (4) Building a new
SDK from scratch specifically designed to target HTML/JS (5) add your
idea here.
Until now, we've seen many people proposing either one of the above
topics, with enough energy to start working on it. Instead of answers
like "well, I might not agree completely, but here you have: share your
vision in this wiki, put the code here, and start working on it (and
remember that there's a risk we might not accept it)", we're just seeing
answers like "No, I don't agree", "Yes, I agree". Let's give these
people resources to start working on their ideas, and to help others who
believe on them work together around the same objective.
Imagine I just subscribed to the ML. I'll start by reading a couple of
emails in the history, but I won't read 2 or 3 thousand emails for sure.
I have an idea for something I would like to work on, so I send an email
suggesting it. I don't have a clue if someone else is already working on
it. In the model I'm suggesting, either:
(1) someone already had a similar idea, so people would simply answer by
indicating the wiki page URL, that would have some info (vision,
roadmap, specifications) on that idea, the respective branch, and a
listing of the persons currently involved
(2) it's a new idea and there's a positive feeling around it so I get
the resources to start my own sub-project. Other people might join later.
If we don't provide tools to help people with disruptive ideas
organizing in groups, they'll simply get those tools outside of Apache
and probably discuss and work outside of Apache, and then bring them in
when they feel it's ready. Not that this is a bad thing, but I would
prefer it if was easier to keep self-organizing groups of persons with a
similar idea as close as possible to Apache.
For example, I have a disruptive idea for Flex that I would like to work
on in a mid-term future. It's a completely different one from what has
been discussed before, and while many people will relate to my vision
and be willing to join, many other might be completely against it. If I
decide to start working on it and others want to join, should I get a
wiki+branch+Jira project+ML outside of Apache (which means, I'm working
outside of Apache...), or should I use the existing resources (that are
all dedicated to one single huge project, so I'll be generating unwanted
noise for all those who don't share my vision) ?
What if we consider a solution that involves providing easily resources
to each sub-project (a codename, access to a part of the wiki, a folder
in the SVN, a JIRA project, and a ML [Tag] (for filtering)) ? This way,
everytime someone joins the ML and says "I want to see Flex exporting to
HTML5", we'll simply say "ok, here's the link to wiki page for that
sub-project, here's where you commit code, here's where you track the
issues, and if you send emails related to that subject add the
[HTML5EXPORT] tag to the subject"...
João Saleiro
Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping
SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
Posted by Jonathan Campos <jo...@gmail.com>.
Why do you need consensus just to get started? I think this thinking on the
ml is continually crippling are our output.
Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping
SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
Posted by Martin Heidegger <mh...@leichtgewicht.at>.
Jira isn't well set-up for that. No wiki markup etc. Also it requires
more privileges to edit jira entries and combine jira entries which
would make it comfortable to work with it. Also I feel like Jira is like
"please give us that" while a wiki feels like "lets add that together".
Makes it easier to provide different things.
I think its not so much about feature than more about concept. Some
concepts are so "big" that they need some sort of overview that is
allowed to change over time. All not really characteristics of a Jira note.
Discussing on the ml is fine, but getting the current consensus is
difficult. I don't want to re-step a 40 page discussion to find out what
one feature is about.
yours
Martin
On 06/02/2012 22:10, Jonathan Campos wrote:
> Isn't this what the jira wish list is about?
>
> My problem with this is that it may discouraged someone from trying
> something new when they see an "official" wiki page saying there is already
> a group working x feature.
>
> I would say we stick with the jira wishlist and let people just discuss
> what they are doing with the ml.
>
Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping
SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
Posted by Jonathan Campos <jo...@gmail.com>.
Isn't this what the jira wish list is about?
My problem with this is that it may discouraged someone from trying
something new when they see an "official" wiki page saying there is already
a group working x feature.
I would say we stick with the jira wishlist and let people just discuss
what they are doing with the ml.
Re: Creating Working Groups [Was: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping
SWF support in favor of HTML5 - listen to Steve]
Posted by Martin Heidegger <mh...@leichtgewicht.at>.
Hello Joao,
good thinking! I am already trying to write up my proposal for the wiki.
Uhm: Do I need to be PPMC member to work on something?
yours
Martin
On 06/02/2012 19:17, João Saleiro wrote:
>
> On 06-02-2012 09:54, David Arno wrote:
>> I struggle with this philosophy. The idea of spending time writing
>> code to
>> then find out whether people like the idea is very alien to me.
>
> I would suggest the creation "working groups" attached to different
> initiatives related to Apache Flex. I'm sure yet how much how like
> this idea, but considering how big the SDK is, the amount of teamwork
> and cooperation needed, and the big number of different initiatives
> that will appear (some complementing each other, others completely
> disruptive), I would suggest we could arrange a solution that would
> help us organize better - creating a working group per initiative
> could help.
> What do I mean by an initiaive? (Fictional) Examples: (1) building the
> next minor version of the SDK (2) building the next major version of
> the SDK/adding framework-level DI (3) building from scratch a new
> simpler SDK meant for exporting to javascript (4) implementing missing
> Spark components (5) creating a Spark Scheduling framework (6) [....]
>
> Existing initiatives would be listed in a page on the wiki ("Currently
> we're working on:") and each one would have:
>
> (1) a wiki section used by that working group to document progress,
> specifications, etc
> (2) a list of the people that are/were involved in that initiative
> (3) an area in the whiteboard for sharing code that would be imported
> to the trunk after accepted
> (4) a specific subject [TAG] so it could help everyone organizing the
> Mailing List in topics. Another option would be a different Mailing
> List for each initiative - it would reduce the S/N level but then it
> wouldn't enable coordination between initiatives
>
> Also, while we wait to have everything in our side, I think we could
> be doing some progress in:
>
> (1) completing the missing Spark components (Carol, could you share
> them in the whiteboard?)
> (2) doing some research on what would be needed to create a version of
> the SDK meant for cross-compiling to JS. In other words, creating a
> checklist what would and wouldn't work, what are the risks, what
> features of HTML could we take advantage of, how could we change Spark
> architecture so it was optimized for HTML, what to do with embedded
> assets, etc
>
> Just my two cents.
>
> João Saleiro
>
>