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Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org> on 2011/06/16 04:34:44 UTC
Speaking of JIRA, Where's Ours?
I notice that there is no JIRA Incubator Project for OpenOffice yet.
Something the project lead does? (Now we get to find out who that is.)
- Dennis
PS: I thought that might be an issue for the JIRA Incubator Incubator Project, and then I thought, nahhh.
-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Stein [mailto:gstein@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 17:40
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Update on Wiki and Website
On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 20:32, Roman H. Gelbort
<ro...@piensalibre.com.ar> wrote:
> El 15/06/11 20:32, Rob Weir escribió:
>> I'm catching up after a day away from my desk. A quick update.
>>
>> Dave entered a request [1] for two wiki spaces, one oo-dev for project
>> planning and one oo-user (experimental) for user-facing pages.
>>
>> I'm hearing no objections to trying the CMS for the web site rather than
>> using a wiki or Velocity. I'm reading up on that based on the links that
>> Ross posted earlier.
>>
>> [1] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-3684
>>
>> -Rob
>>
> oo-dev and oo-user or... ooo-dev and ooo-user?
In the JIRA ticket, it is listed as ooo-dev and ooo-user.
Cheers,
-g
Re: Speaking of JIRA, Where's Ours?
Posted by Leif Hedstrom <zw...@apache.org>.
On Jun 15, 2011, at 10:49 PM, Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 00:33, Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Well, JIRA identifies project leads, one per project. What can I say.
>>>
>>> Hunh. I had no idea.
>>
>> Usually the chairs name is added as "project lead" in Jira.
>> For now we could add Sam as the champion. Once graduated we can put
>> the newly elected chairs name there
>
> If anything, try to de-emphasize the Chair as anything but the conduit
> between the Board and the Project. Even a little thing in JIRA calling
> them a "Project Lead" can reinforce a "bad meme" that the Chair is
> more than an administrator.
>
> Simply ask for a volunteer who will perform JIRA management.
Note that you can have any number of Administrators for the jira project, who can all share the management responsibilities. It's just very unfortunate that the first admin is also labeled project lead.
I'm not suggesting jira over bugzilla, both are fine issue tracking systems.
-- Leif
Re: Speaking of JIRA, Where's Ours?
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 00:33, Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Well, JIRA identifies project leads, one per project. What can I say.
>>
>> Hunh. I had no idea.
>
> Usually the chairs name is added as "project lead" in Jira.
> For now we could add Sam as the champion. Once graduated we can put
> the newly elected chairs name there
If anything, try to de-emphasize the Chair as anything but the conduit
between the Board and the Project. Even a little thing in JIRA calling
them a "Project Lead" can reinforce a "bad meme" that the Chair is
more than an administrator.
Simply ask for a volunteer who will perform JIRA management.
Cheers,
-g
Re: Speaking of JIRA, Where's Ours?
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
>> Well, JIRA identifies project leads, one per project. What can I say.
>
> Hunh. I had no idea.
Usually the chairs name is added as "project lead" in Jira.
For now we could add Sam as the champion. Once graduated we can put
the newly elected chairs name there
Christian
>
> (yes, I try to avoid JIRA, and most issue trackers, actually)
>
>> I notice that JIRA automatically offers to find issues by bugzilla numbers. I don't know how that works when more than one bugzilla base is imported.
>>
>> I was jumping the gun. I'll just have to keep scraps of paper in my pockets until we figure it out.
>>
>> - Dennis
>>
>> (who has been watching through all of the old BBC "About Frost" episodes, hence the scraps of papers -- I don't dare do that).
>>
>> Wow, this is so much like taking a job in an established company and having to figure out who knows who, who to go to for answers, where the office supplies are, what's taboo, and what all the private language is. I thought I was done with that, but it is fascinating to see how it works in the unique setting that is the world of Apache Software Foundation.
>
> Keep the questions flowing! There are lots of things going on, and it
> is easy to miss something.
>
> Cheers,
> -g
>
--
http://www.grobmeier.de
Re: Speaking of JIRA, Where's Ours?
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 23:58, Dennis E. Hamilton
<de...@acm.org> wrote:
> Well, JIRA identifies project leads, one per project. What can I say.
Hunh. I had no idea.
(yes, I try to avoid JIRA, and most issue trackers, actually)
> I notice that JIRA automatically offers to find issues by bugzilla numbers. I don't know how that works when more than one bugzilla base is imported.
>
> I was jumping the gun. I'll just have to keep scraps of paper in my pockets until we figure it out.
>
> - Dennis
>
> (who has been watching through all of the old BBC "About Frost" episodes, hence the scraps of papers -- I don't dare do that).
>
> Wow, this is so much like taking a job in an established company and having to figure out who knows who, who to go to for answers, where the office supplies are, what's taboo, and what all the private language is. I thought I was done with that, but it is fascinating to see how it works in the unique setting that is the world of Apache Software Foundation.
Keep the questions flowing! There are lots of things going on, and it
is easy to miss something.
Cheers,
-g
RE: Speaking of JIRA, Where's Ours?
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
Well, JIRA identifies project leads, one per project. What can I say.
I notice that JIRA automatically offers to find issues by bugzilla numbers. I don't know how that works when more than one bugzilla base is imported.
I was jumping the gun. I'll just have to keep scraps of paper in my pockets until we figure it out.
- Dennis
(who has been watching through all of the old BBC "About Frost" episodes, hence the scraps of papers -- I don't dare do that).
Wow, this is so much like taking a job in an established company and having to figure out who knows who, who to go to for answers, where the office supplies are, what's taboo, and what all the private language is. I thought I was done with that, but it is fascinating to see how it works in the unique setting that is the world of Apache Software Foundation.
-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Stein [mailto:gstein@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 20:10
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org; dennis.hamilton@acm.org
Subject: Re: Speaking of JIRA, Where's Ours?
Below, I was referring to the INFRA-3684 ticket.
I haven't been tracking the list as closely today. I'm not sure where
the consensus landed on the "which bug tracking system?" question.
Once that choice is made, then somebody can file a ticket with INFRA
to set up the ticketing system.
Note: if Bugzilla is chosen, then we will want a "new" instance,
rather than using the shared Bugzilla instance. That will allow us to
port over the old BZ database.
And there is no such thing as "project lead" at Apache. Everybody is a peer.
Cheers,
-g
On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 22:34, Dennis E. Hamilton
<de...@acm.org> wrote:
> I notice that there is no JIRA Incubator Project for OpenOffice yet.
>
> Something the project lead does? (Now we get to find out who that is.)
>
> - Dennis
>
> PS: I thought that might be an issue for the JIRA Incubator Incubator Project, and then I thought, nahhh.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Greg Stein [mailto:gstein@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 17:40
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Update on Wiki and Website
>
> On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 20:32, Roman H. Gelbort
> <ro...@piensalibre.com.ar> wrote:
>> El 15/06/11 20:32, Rob Weir escribió:
>>> I'm catching up after a day away from my desk. A quick update.
>>>
>>> Dave entered a request [1] for two wiki spaces, one oo-dev for project
>>> planning and one oo-user (experimental) for user-facing pages.
>>>
>>> I'm hearing no objections to trying the CMS for the web site rather than
>>> using a wiki or Velocity. I'm reading up on that based on the links that
>>> Ross posted earlier.
>>>
>>> [1] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-3684
>>>
>>> -Rob
>>>
>> oo-dev and oo-user or... ooo-dev and ooo-user?
>
> In the JIRA ticket, it is listed as ooo-dev and ooo-user.
>
> Cheers,
> -g
>
>
Re: Speaking of JIRA, Where's Ours?
Posted by Raphael Bircher <r....@gmx.ch>.
Am 16.06.11 05:09, schrieb Greg Stein:
> Below, I was referring to the INFRA-3684 ticket.
>
> I haven't been tracking the list as closely today. I'm not sure where
> the consensus landed on the "which bug tracking system?" question.
> Once that choice is made, then somebody can file a ticket with INFRA
> to set up the ticketing system.
I'm behind bugzilla, because we use it since the beginning. A switch to
the JIRA have to be carfully evaluated, also from technical side.
> Note: if Bugzilla is chosen, then we will want a "new" instance,
> rather than using the shared Bugzilla instance. That will allow us to
> port over the old BZ database.
Yes, we realy use a new instance, shared Bugzilla is not a good idea. We
have over 100'000 Bugs. It's not a good idea to put them all on a shered
Bugzills, I think.
Greetings Raphael
--
My private Homepage: http://www.raphaelbircher.ch/
Re: Speaking of JIRA, Where's Ours?
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
Some of the choice will certainly revolve around how you intend
to work as a group. Some projects (eg thrift) do all their dev
work in the issue tracker- the dev mailing list is never really
utilized for discussions, it's just a track record of the activity
in the issue tracker. Jira lends itself to this sort of organization
with its ability to create project roadmaps and such.
Other projects like httpd don't make a lot of use of the issue
tracker, they are organized around activity in various STATUS
files in their svn tree. The httpd issue tracker (bugzilla) is
just there for users to submit bug reports.
----- Original Message ----
> From: Dennis E. Hamilton <de...@acm.org>
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Sent: Thu, June 30, 2011 1:27:55 PM
> Subject: RE: Speaking of JIRA, Where's Ours?
>
> Watching the LibreOffice lists as I do, I notice that sometimes a developer
>will pick up an user-list item and create a bug report about it.
>
> In other cases, folks on the user list are asked to submit a bug. I am not
>sure what happens.
>
>
> And the rest of it appears to simply remain user-list chatter.
>
> I've submitted some bugs on the LibreOffice bug tracker. I hate it, and had
>several misfires before I got it right. It is very easy to fall out of the
>LibreOffice portion of the tracker and get a search result that is the whole
>universe of projects on the same system.
>
>
> Also, when bugs are talked about on the developer list, they are identified by
>their bug numbers. I never know which ones they are talking about, even ones
>I've submitted that they are working on. I can arrange to get CC: copies of
>actions on my own bug reports and I do that to see if they are even assigned to
>anyone, there are comments, etc.
>
> And of course, the way users (including myself) report bugs, about feature
>behaviors, is way different than the way developers report bugs, which are
>often about fine details in the implementation. It can be tricky avoiding
>misunderstandings.
>
> It is very difficult to tell if one is submitting a duplicate, so when I can't
>tell, I submit anyhow. Usually a dev will close it as a duplicate and link to
>the one already on file, and I can then follow that if I feel the urge. The
>opportunity cost is pretty high though - I put a fair amount of effort providing
>bug reports on reproducible defects.
>
> Having said how painful it is, it is far better than trying to submit a bug
>report on a commercial product where one has no idea how many times a bug has
>already been reported and finding out how to report a bug is near-impossible
>with some products. The impedance mismatch is so high I rarely go to the
>trouble unless I know someone at the company that I can report my experience to
>directly. Working around the system is not beneficial to users or the
>producers, of course.
>
> - Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shane Curcuru [mailto:asf@shanecurcuru.org]
> Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 09:57
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Speaking of JIRA, Where's Ours?
>
> Here's a meta-question for those who've previously worked on OOo: who
> are the primary users of the bugtracking system?
>
> Most other Apache projects have sysadmins or developers as the primary
> customers, hence the majority of people both seeking help on a product,
> and the majority of people actually coming to file a bug report (or
> track one) have some technical experience.
>
> In OOo, are the bugtrackers aimed at developers, end users, or a mix of
> both? And for the end users, do they mostly just submit reports to the
> bugtracker, or do they actively use the other features in the bugtracker?
>
> Thinking through how end users get support might help, because if 1)
> some end users use the lists, and don't really use the bugtracker,
> that's important to know, and 2) because if most end users really only
> ever submit bugs (but not search/track them, other than to get notified
> of their own bug), that is useful to know.
>
> ----
>
> In terms of ASF infrastructure, most other projects have/or/are
> migrating away from Bugzilla (to simplistic and hard to get good
> reports) over to JIRA (perhaps slow and complicated, but you can usually
> get what you want out of it). But either is a supported tool at Apache.
>
> Note that if a project wants a custom JIRA or Bugzilla install, with
> extra modules or something, that's possible to do - especially if the
> project has some reliable volunteers that will assist in both deploying
> and supporting the customizations.
>
> - Shane
>
> On 6/30/2011 11:53 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
> > I'd like to reopen this question,since I haven't seen a resolution.
> >
> > I'm hearing some proposing Bugzilla, because of familiarity and ease
> > of migration.
> >
> > I'm also hearing some say that JIRA is superior.
> >
> > I'm not really persuaded by either argument. I wonder if we could
> > briefly drill down into this a bit more.
> >
> > 1) I read that the OOo bugzilla has been customized. Can anyone
> > explain the nature of the customizations?
> >
> > 2) In what sense if JIRA better? IMHO all defect tracking systems
> > suck. But I'm open to the possibility that some suck less.
> >
> > 3) On migration, would it be reasonable to attempt a sandboxed trial
> > migration of Bugzilla to JIRA, and let skeptics poke at it for a
> > while, to see if, for example, IDs are preserved, etc.? Would that be
> > much work? The easiest way to convince people that JIRA is possible
> > and reasonable might be to actually do it.
> >
> > 4) What are the downsides of Bugzilla? If it is a supported option at
> > Apache, wouldn't that be the obvious choice? I think we'd need to
> > make a good case for why an alternative would be better. What are,
> > say, the top 3 things that JIRA would do better than Bugzilla?
> >
> > -Rob
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 12:44 PM, Dave Fisher<da...@comcast.net>
>wrote:
> >>
> >> On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:17 AM, Mathias Bauer wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 16.06.2011 16:45, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
> >>>> Hi *,
> >>>>
> >>>> (to moderators: I guess the list software used checks on Sender, not
> >>>> on From - so if you need to review this message, please add the sender
> >>>> address to a "allowed posters" lists for both dev and notifications
> >>>> please)
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 1:03 PM, Marcus Lange<ma...@wtnet.de>
>wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I would prefer Bugzilla, too. We have already migrated recently to this,
>so
> >>>>> transition would be much easier to bring it into Apache. And because
of
> >>>>> OOo's project size I would also like to see a new instance.
> >>>>
> >>>> Not because of project size, but also for the sake of preserving the
> >>>> issue-numbers that are spread all over the place, last but not least
> >>>> in the code itself.
> >>>>
> >>>> So whatever you choose, make sure that there is a way to get form
> >>>> #i1234# to the actual bug that corresponds to the id.
> >>>
> >>> Yes, keeping issue ids is the most important thing. Which bug tracker we
>use would be a second order priority for me.
> >>
> >> There seems to be consensus.
> >>
> >> (1) We must somehow preserve the old bugzilla ids.
> >>
> >> (2) There is no clear preference on Bugzilla over JIRA.
> >>
> >> I think that we need to ask the infrastructure team what they think about
>the situation.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Dave
>
>
RE: Speaking of JIRA, Where's Ours?
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
Watching the LibreOffice lists as I do, I notice that sometimes a developer will pick up an user-list item and create a bug report about it.
In other cases, folks on the user list are asked to submit a bug. I am not sure what happens.
And the rest of it appears to simply remain user-list chatter.
I've submitted some bugs on the LibreOffice bug tracker. I hate it, and had several misfires before I got it right. It is very easy to fall out of the LibreOffice portion of the tracker and get a search result that is the whole universe of projects on the same system.
Also, when bugs are talked about on the developer list, they are identified by their bug numbers. I never know which ones they are talking about, even ones I've submitted that they are working on. I can arrange to get CC: copies of actions on my own bug reports and I do that to see if they are even assigned to anyone, there are comments, etc.
And of course, the way users (including myself) report bugs, about feature behaviors, is way different than the way developers report bugs, which are often about fine details in the implementation. It can be tricky avoiding misunderstandings.
It is very difficult to tell if one is submitting a duplicate, so when I can't tell, I submit anyhow. Usually a dev will close it as a duplicate and link to the one already on file, and I can then follow that if I feel the urge. The opportunity cost is pretty high though - I put a fair amount of effort providing bug reports on reproducible defects.
Having said how painful it is, it is far better than trying to submit a bug report on a commercial product where one has no idea how many times a bug has already been reported and finding out how to report a bug is near-impossible with some products. The impedance mismatch is so high I rarely go to the trouble unless I know someone at the company that I can report my experience to directly. Working around the system is not beneficial to users or the producers, of course.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Shane Curcuru [mailto:asf@shanecurcuru.org]
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 09:57
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Speaking of JIRA, Where's Ours?
Here's a meta-question for those who've previously worked on OOo: who
are the primary users of the bugtracking system?
Most other Apache projects have sysadmins or developers as the primary
customers, hence the majority of people both seeking help on a product,
and the majority of people actually coming to file a bug report (or
track one) have some technical experience.
In OOo, are the bugtrackers aimed at developers, end users, or a mix of
both? And for the end users, do they mostly just submit reports to the
bugtracker, or do they actively use the other features in the bugtracker?
Thinking through how end users get support might help, because if 1)
some end users use the lists, and don't really use the bugtracker,
that's important to know, and 2) because if most end users really only
ever submit bugs (but not search/track them, other than to get notified
of their own bug), that is useful to know.
----
In terms of ASF infrastructure, most other projects have/or/are
migrating away from Bugzilla (to simplistic and hard to get good
reports) over to JIRA (perhaps slow and complicated, but you can usually
get what you want out of it). But either is a supported tool at Apache.
Note that if a project wants a custom JIRA or Bugzilla install, with
extra modules or something, that's possible to do - especially if the
project has some reliable volunteers that will assist in both deploying
and supporting the customizations.
- Shane
On 6/30/2011 11:53 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
> I'd like to reopen this question,since I haven't seen a resolution.
>
> I'm hearing some proposing Bugzilla, because of familiarity and ease
> of migration.
>
> I'm also hearing some say that JIRA is superior.
>
> I'm not really persuaded by either argument. I wonder if we could
> briefly drill down into this a bit more.
>
> 1) I read that the OOo bugzilla has been customized. Can anyone
> explain the nature of the customizations?
>
> 2) In what sense if JIRA better? IMHO all defect tracking systems
> suck. But I'm open to the possibility that some suck less.
>
> 3) On migration, would it be reasonable to attempt a sandboxed trial
> migration of Bugzilla to JIRA, and let skeptics poke at it for a
> while, to see if, for example, IDs are preserved, etc.? Would that be
> much work? The easiest way to convince people that JIRA is possible
> and reasonable might be to actually do it.
>
> 4) What are the downsides of Bugzilla? If it is a supported option at
> Apache, wouldn't that be the obvious choice? I think we'd need to
> make a good case for why an alternative would be better. What are,
> say, the top 3 things that JIRA would do better than Bugzilla?
>
> -Rob
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 12:44 PM, Dave Fisher<da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:17 AM, Mathias Bauer wrote:
>>
>>> On 16.06.2011 16:45, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
>>>> Hi *,
>>>>
>>>> (to moderators: I guess the list software used checks on Sender, not
>>>> on From - so if you need to review this message, please add the sender
>>>> address to a "allowed posters" lists for both dev and notifications
>>>> please)
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 1:03 PM, Marcus Lange<ma...@wtnet.de> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I would prefer Bugzilla, too. We have already migrated recently to this, so
>>>>> transition would be much easier to bring it into Apache. And because of
>>>>> OOo's project size I would also like to see a new instance.
>>>>
>>>> Not because of project size, but also for the sake of preserving the
>>>> issue-numbers that are spread all over the place, last but not least
>>>> in the code itself.
>>>>
>>>> So whatever you choose, make sure that there is a way to get form
>>>> #i1234# to the actual bug that corresponds to the id.
>>>
>>> Yes, keeping issue ids is the most important thing. Which bug tracker we use would be a second order priority for me.
>>
>> There seems to be consensus.
>>
>> (1) We must somehow preserve the old bugzilla ids.
>>
>> (2) There is no clear preference on Bugzilla over JIRA.
>>
>> I think that we need to ask the infrastructure team what they think about the situation.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Dave
Re: Speaking of JIRA, Where's Ours?
Posted by Reizinger Zoltán <zr...@hdsnet.hu>.
To understand how bug tracker worked in OOo, starting point is OOo QA page:
http://qa.openoffice.org/
How OOo used bug tracking, this flowchart show more than words:
http://qa.openoffice.org/issue_handling/workflowcharts/defect_triaging.pdf
I participated in database QA as volunteer my experience in short:
The bug tracker used mostly by developers, qa and users.
If user submitted support question, they usually forwarded to users
mailing lists/forum, depending on which part of OOo bug was submitted.
The users habit was different, the power users if submitted well
described problems/bugs, usually followed the bug cycle, and when bug
fixed in development version of OOo, tested in their environment.
First time bug submitter users, submitted bug and forget it, if they not
described well the symptoms, not answered even, if we asked some
additional information.
The searching was difficult, if you not know right words, you not get
already submitted bugs, it is caused lot of effort, to clean bug tracker
from duplicate issues.
Zoltan
2011.06.30. 18:56 keltezéssel, Shane Curcuru írta:
> Here's a meta-question for those who've previously worked on OOo: who
> are the primary users of the bugtracking system?
>
> Most other Apache projects have sysadmins or developers as the primary
> customers, hence the majority of people both seeking help on a
> product, and the majority of people actually coming to file a bug
> report (or track one) have some technical experience.
>
> In OOo, are the bugtrackers aimed at developers, end users, or a mix
> of both? And for the end users, do they mostly just submit reports to
> the bugtracker, or do they actively use the other features in the
> bugtracker?
>
> Thinking through how end users get support might help, because if 1)
> some end users use the lists, and don't really use the bugtracker,
> that's important to know, and 2) because if most end users really only
> ever submit bugs (but not search/track them, other than to get
> notified of their own bug), that is useful to know.
>
> ----
>
> In terms of ASF infrastructure, most other projects have/or/are
> migrating away from Bugzilla (to simplistic and hard to get good
> reports) over to JIRA (perhaps slow and complicated, but you can
> usually get what you want out of it). But either is a supported tool
> at Apache.
>
> Note that if a project wants a custom JIRA or Bugzilla install, with
> extra modules or something, that's possible to do - especially if the
> project has some reliable volunteers that will assist in both
> deploying and supporting the customizations.
>
> - Shane
>
> On 6/30/2011 11:53 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>> I'd like to reopen this question,since I haven't seen a resolution.
>>
>> I'm hearing some proposing Bugzilla, because of familiarity and ease
>> of migration.
>>
>> I'm also hearing some say that JIRA is superior.
>>
>> I'm not really persuaded by either argument. I wonder if we could
>> briefly drill down into this a bit more.
>>
>> 1) I read that the OOo bugzilla has been customized. Can anyone
>> explain the nature of the customizations?
>>
>> 2) In what sense if JIRA better? IMHO all defect tracking systems
>> suck. But I'm open to the possibility that some suck less.
>>
>> 3) On migration, would it be reasonable to attempt a sandboxed trial
>> migration of Bugzilla to JIRA, and let skeptics poke at it for a
>> while, to see if, for example, IDs are preserved, etc.? Would that be
>> much work? The easiest way to convince people that JIRA is possible
>> and reasonable might be to actually do it.
>>
>> 4) What are the downsides of Bugzilla? If it is a supported option at
>> Apache, wouldn't that be the obvious choice? I think we'd need to
>> make a good case for why an alternative would be better. What are,
>> say, the top 3 things that JIRA would do better than Bugzilla?
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 12:44 PM, Dave Fisher<da...@comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:17 AM, Mathias Bauer wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 16.06.2011 16:45, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
>>>>> Hi *,
>>>>>
>>>>> (to moderators: I guess the list software used checks on Sender, not
>>>>> on From - so if you need to review this message, please add the
>>>>> sender
>>>>> address to a "allowed posters" lists for both dev and notifications
>>>>> please)
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 1:03 PM, Marcus
>>>>> Lange<ma...@wtnet.de> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would prefer Bugzilla, too. We have already migrated recently
>>>>>> to this, so
>>>>>> transition would be much easier to bring it into Apache. And
>>>>>> because of
>>>>>> OOo's project size I would also like to see a new instance.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not because of project size, but also for the sake of preserving the
>>>>> issue-numbers that are spread all over the place, last but not least
>>>>> in the code itself.
>>>>>
>>>>> So whatever you choose, make sure that there is a way to get form
>>>>> #i1234# to the actual bug that corresponds to the id.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, keeping issue ids is the most important thing. Which bug
>>>> tracker we use would be a second order priority for me.
>>>
>>> There seems to be consensus.
>>>
>>> (1) We must somehow preserve the old bugzilla ids.
>>>
>>> (2) There is no clear preference on Bugzilla over JIRA.
>>>
>>> I think that we need to ask the infrastructure team what they think
>>> about the situation.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Dave
>
Re: Speaking of JIRA, Where's Ours?
Posted by Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com>.
I also feel generally speaking that JIRA, if some templating is applied,
is much better for end users.
On 06/30/2011 10:00 AM, Joe Schaefer wrote:
> Jira is certainly the more popular of the two by a wide
> margin here at the ASF. Infra uses jira just because we
> had to pick one, and we get decent mileage out of the SOAP
> API via infrabot on irc.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Shane Curcuru<as...@shanecurcuru.org>
>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> Sent: Thu, June 30, 2011 12:56:31 PM
>> Subject: Re: Speaking of JIRA, Where's Ours?
>>
>> Here's a meta-question for those who've previously worked on OOo: who
>> are the primary users of the bugtracking system?
>>
>> Most other Apache projects have sysadmins or developers as the primary
>> customers, hence the majority of people both seeking help on a product,
>> and the majority of people actually coming to file a bug report (or
>> track one) have some technical experience.
>>
>> In OOo, are the bugtrackers aimed at developers, end users, or a mix of
>> both? And for the end users, do they mostly just submit reports to the
>> bugtracker, or do they actively use the other features in the bugtracker?
>>
>> Thinking through how end users get support might help, because if 1)
>> some end users use the lists, and don't really use the bugtracker,
>> that's important to know, and 2) because if most end users really only
>> ever submit bugs (but not search/track them, other than to get notified
>> of their own bug), that is useful to know.
>>
>> ----
>>
>> In terms of ASF infrastructure, most other projects have/or/are
>> migrating away from Bugzilla (to simplistic and hard to get good
>> reports) over to JIRA (perhaps slow and complicated, but you can usually
>> get what you want out of it). But either is a supported tool at Apache.
>>
>> Note that if a project wants a custom JIRA or Bugzilla install, with
>> extra modules or something, that's possible to do - especially if the
>> project has some reliable volunteers that will assist in both deploying
>> and supporting the customizations.
>>
>> - Shane
>>
>> On 6/30/2011 11:53 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>> I'd like to reopen this question,since I haven't seen a resolution.
>>>
>>> I'm hearing some proposing Bugzilla, because of familiarity and ease
>>> of migration.
>>>
>>> I'm also hearing some say that JIRA is superior.
>>>
>>> I'm not really persuaded by either argument. I wonder if we could
>>> briefly drill down into this a bit more.
>>>
>>> 1) I read that the OOo bugzilla has been customized. Can anyone
>>> explain the nature of the customizations?
>>>
>>> 2) In what sense if JIRA better? IMHO all defect tracking systems
>>> suck. But I'm open to the possibility that some suck less.
>>>
>>> 3) On migration, would it be reasonable to attempt a sandboxed trial
>>> migration of Bugzilla to JIRA, and let skeptics poke at it for a
>>> while, to see if, for example, IDs are preserved, etc.? Would that be
>>> much work? The easiest way to convince people that JIRA is possible
>>> and reasonable might be to actually do it.
>>>
>>> 4) What are the downsides of Bugzilla? If it is a supported option at
>>> Apache, wouldn't that be the obvious choice? I think we'd need to
>>> make a good case for why an alternative would be better. What are,
>>> say, the top 3 things that JIRA would do better than Bugzilla?
>>>
>>> -Rob
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 12:44 PM, Dave Fisher<da...@comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:17 AM, Mathias Bauer wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 16.06.2011 16:45, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
>>>>>> Hi *,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (to moderators: I guess the list software used checks on Sender, not
>>>>>> on From - so if you need to review this message, please add the sender
>>>>>> address to a "allowed posters" lists for both dev and notifications
>>>>>> please)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 1:03 PM, Marcus Lange<ma...@wtnet.de>
>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would prefer Bugzilla, too. We have already migrated recently to this,
>> so
>>>>>>> transition would be much easier to bring it into Apache. And because
> of
>>>>>>> OOo's project size I would also like to see a new instance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not because of project size, but also for the sake of preserving the
>>>>>> issue-numbers that are spread all over the place, last but not least
>>>>>> in the code itself.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So whatever you choose, make sure that there is a way to get form
>>>>>> #i1234# to the actual bug that corresponds to the id.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, keeping issue ids is the most important thing. Which bug tracker we
>> use would be a second order priority for me.
>>>>
>>>> There seems to be consensus.
>>>>
>>>> (1) We must somehow preserve the old bugzilla ids.
>>>>
>>>> (2) There is no clear preference on Bugzilla over JIRA.
>>>>
>>>> I think that we need to ask the infrastructure team what they think about
>> the situation.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Dave
>>
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
MzK
"He's got that New Orleans thing crawling all over him, that good stuff,
that 'We Are the Champions', to hell with the rest and
I'll just start over kind of attitude."
-- "1 Dead in the Attic", Chris Rose
Re: Speaking of JIRA, Where's Ours?
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
Jira is certainly the more popular of the two by a wide
margin here at the ASF. Infra uses jira just because we
had to pick one, and we get decent mileage out of the SOAP
API via infrabot on irc.
----- Original Message ----
> From: Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org>
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Sent: Thu, June 30, 2011 12:56:31 PM
> Subject: Re: Speaking of JIRA, Where's Ours?
>
> Here's a meta-question for those who've previously worked on OOo: who
> are the primary users of the bugtracking system?
>
> Most other Apache projects have sysadmins or developers as the primary
> customers, hence the majority of people both seeking help on a product,
> and the majority of people actually coming to file a bug report (or
> track one) have some technical experience.
>
> In OOo, are the bugtrackers aimed at developers, end users, or a mix of
> both? And for the end users, do they mostly just submit reports to the
> bugtracker, or do they actively use the other features in the bugtracker?
>
> Thinking through how end users get support might help, because if 1)
> some end users use the lists, and don't really use the bugtracker,
> that's important to know, and 2) because if most end users really only
> ever submit bugs (but not search/track them, other than to get notified
> of their own bug), that is useful to know.
>
> ----
>
> In terms of ASF infrastructure, most other projects have/or/are
> migrating away from Bugzilla (to simplistic and hard to get good
> reports) over to JIRA (perhaps slow and complicated, but you can usually
> get what you want out of it). But either is a supported tool at Apache.
>
> Note that if a project wants a custom JIRA or Bugzilla install, with
> extra modules or something, that's possible to do - especially if the
> project has some reliable volunteers that will assist in both deploying
> and supporting the customizations.
>
> - Shane
>
> On 6/30/2011 11:53 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
> > I'd like to reopen this question,since I haven't seen a resolution.
> >
> > I'm hearing some proposing Bugzilla, because of familiarity and ease
> > of migration.
> >
> > I'm also hearing some say that JIRA is superior.
> >
> > I'm not really persuaded by either argument. I wonder if we could
> > briefly drill down into this a bit more.
> >
> > 1) I read that the OOo bugzilla has been customized. Can anyone
> > explain the nature of the customizations?
> >
> > 2) In what sense if JIRA better? IMHO all defect tracking systems
> > suck. But I'm open to the possibility that some suck less.
> >
> > 3) On migration, would it be reasonable to attempt a sandboxed trial
> > migration of Bugzilla to JIRA, and let skeptics poke at it for a
> > while, to see if, for example, IDs are preserved, etc.? Would that be
> > much work? The easiest way to convince people that JIRA is possible
> > and reasonable might be to actually do it.
> >
> > 4) What are the downsides of Bugzilla? If it is a supported option at
> > Apache, wouldn't that be the obvious choice? I think we'd need to
> > make a good case for why an alternative would be better. What are,
> > say, the top 3 things that JIRA would do better than Bugzilla?
> >
> > -Rob
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 12:44 PM, Dave Fisher<da...@comcast.net>
>wrote:
> >>
> >> On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:17 AM, Mathias Bauer wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 16.06.2011 16:45, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
> >>>> Hi *,
> >>>>
> >>>> (to moderators: I guess the list software used checks on Sender, not
> >>>> on From - so if you need to review this message, please add the sender
> >>>> address to a "allowed posters" lists for both dev and notifications
> >>>> please)
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 1:03 PM, Marcus Lange<ma...@wtnet.de>
>wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I would prefer Bugzilla, too. We have already migrated recently to this,
>so
> >>>>> transition would be much easier to bring it into Apache. And because
of
> >>>>> OOo's project size I would also like to see a new instance.
> >>>>
> >>>> Not because of project size, but also for the sake of preserving the
> >>>> issue-numbers that are spread all over the place, last but not least
> >>>> in the code itself.
> >>>>
> >>>> So whatever you choose, make sure that there is a way to get form
> >>>> #i1234# to the actual bug that corresponds to the id.
> >>>
> >>> Yes, keeping issue ids is the most important thing. Which bug tracker we
>use would be a second order priority for me.
> >>
> >> There seems to be consensus.
> >>
> >> (1) We must somehow preserve the old bugzilla ids.
> >>
> >> (2) There is no clear preference on Bugzilla over JIRA.
> >>
> >> I think that we need to ask the infrastructure team what they think about
>the situation.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Dave
>
Re: Speaking of JIRA, Where's Ours?
Posted by Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org>.
Here's a meta-question for those who've previously worked on OOo: who
are the primary users of the bugtracking system?
Most other Apache projects have sysadmins or developers as the primary
customers, hence the majority of people both seeking help on a product,
and the majority of people actually coming to file a bug report (or
track one) have some technical experience.
In OOo, are the bugtrackers aimed at developers, end users, or a mix of
both? And for the end users, do they mostly just submit reports to the
bugtracker, or do they actively use the other features in the bugtracker?
Thinking through how end users get support might help, because if 1)
some end users use the lists, and don't really use the bugtracker,
that's important to know, and 2) because if most end users really only
ever submit bugs (but not search/track them, other than to get notified
of their own bug), that is useful to know.
----
In terms of ASF infrastructure, most other projects have/or/are
migrating away from Bugzilla (to simplistic and hard to get good
reports) over to JIRA (perhaps slow and complicated, but you can usually
get what you want out of it). But either is a supported tool at Apache.
Note that if a project wants a custom JIRA or Bugzilla install, with
extra modules or something, that's possible to do - especially if the
project has some reliable volunteers that will assist in both deploying
and supporting the customizations.
- Shane
On 6/30/2011 11:53 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
> I'd like to reopen this question,since I haven't seen a resolution.
>
> I'm hearing some proposing Bugzilla, because of familiarity and ease
> of migration.
>
> I'm also hearing some say that JIRA is superior.
>
> I'm not really persuaded by either argument. I wonder if we could
> briefly drill down into this a bit more.
>
> 1) I read that the OOo bugzilla has been customized. Can anyone
> explain the nature of the customizations?
>
> 2) In what sense if JIRA better? IMHO all defect tracking systems
> suck. But I'm open to the possibility that some suck less.
>
> 3) On migration, would it be reasonable to attempt a sandboxed trial
> migration of Bugzilla to JIRA, and let skeptics poke at it for a
> while, to see if, for example, IDs are preserved, etc.? Would that be
> much work? The easiest way to convince people that JIRA is possible
> and reasonable might be to actually do it.
>
> 4) What are the downsides of Bugzilla? If it is a supported option at
> Apache, wouldn't that be the obvious choice? I think we'd need to
> make a good case for why an alternative would be better. What are,
> say, the top 3 things that JIRA would do better than Bugzilla?
>
> -Rob
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 12:44 PM, Dave Fisher<da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:17 AM, Mathias Bauer wrote:
>>
>>> On 16.06.2011 16:45, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
>>>> Hi *,
>>>>
>>>> (to moderators: I guess the list software used checks on Sender, not
>>>> on From - so if you need to review this message, please add the sender
>>>> address to a "allowed posters" lists for both dev and notifications
>>>> please)
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 1:03 PM, Marcus Lange<ma...@wtnet.de> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I would prefer Bugzilla, too. We have already migrated recently to this, so
>>>>> transition would be much easier to bring it into Apache. And because of
>>>>> OOo's project size I would also like to see a new instance.
>>>>
>>>> Not because of project size, but also for the sake of preserving the
>>>> issue-numbers that are spread all over the place, last but not least
>>>> in the code itself.
>>>>
>>>> So whatever you choose, make sure that there is a way to get form
>>>> #i1234# to the actual bug that corresponds to the id.
>>>
>>> Yes, keeping issue ids is the most important thing. Which bug tracker we use would be a second order priority for me.
>>
>> There seems to be consensus.
>>
>> (1) We must somehow preserve the old bugzilla ids.
>>
>> (2) There is no clear preference on Bugzilla over JIRA.
>>
>> I think that we need to ask the infrastructure team what they think about the situation.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Dave
Re: Speaking of JIRA, Where's Ours?
Posted by Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com>.
On 06/30/2011 09:12 AM, Alexandro Colorado wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Rob Weir<ap...@robweir.com> wrote:
>
>> I'd like to reopen this question,since I haven't seen a resolution.
>>
>> I'm hearing some proposing Bugzilla, because of familiarity and ease
>> of migration.
>>
>> I'm also hearing some say that JIRA is superior.
>>
>> I'm not really persuaded by either argument. I wonder if we could
>> briefly drill down into this a bit more.
>>
>> 1) I read that the OOo bugzilla has been customized. Can anyone
>> explain the nature of the customizations?
>>
>> 2) In what sense if JIRA better? IMHO all defect tracking systems
>> suck. But I'm open to the possibility that some suck less.
>>
>> 3) On migration, would it be reasonable to attempt a sandboxed trial
>> migration of Bugzilla to JIRA, and let skeptics poke at it for a
>> while, to see if, for example, IDs are preserved, etc.? Would that be
>> much work? The easiest way to convince people that JIRA is possible
>> and reasonable might be to actually do it.
>>
>> 4) What are the downsides of Bugzilla? If it is a supported option at
>> Apache, wouldn't that be the obvious choice? I think we'd need to
>> make a good case for why an alternative would be better. What are,
>> say, the top 3 things that JIRA would do better than Bugzilla?
>>
>
> I can argually say that both suck,
yep! :) to and end user, both are quite obtuse!
the issue tracker that I have seen
> easiest is the one provided by google code.
>
> The problem with that tracker is that I am not sure is doable for larger
> projects.
>
> The biggest hump of using an issue tracker is locating the right people
> (subcomponent) to get the issue to, or asigning a developer to it. whcih
> most times is not aparent. The previous OOo (Collabnet) supported templates
> which fill out your issue tracker in order to submit the issues faster.
> However I found not many people really used it.
with jira you can set up "default" assignees, and many other things if
you care to. There's a lot you can do to "customize" jira but it does
take a fair amount of work.
>
> I can go to JIRA and find the feature list and compare it with Bugzilla, and
> I can see there are some minor advantages, but I agree that the familiarity
> of bugzilla is usually lower the learning curve for most people. I mean
> whats the point of having a better issue tracker if the users don't get it
> right away?
>
>
>
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 12:44 PM, Dave Fisher<da...@comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:17 AM, Mathias Bauer wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 16.06.2011 16:45, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
>>>>> Hi *,
>>>>>
>>>>> (to moderators: I guess the list software used checks on Sender, not
>>>>> on From - so if you need to review this message, please add the sender
>>>>> address to a "allowed posters" lists for both dev and notifications
>>>>> please)
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 1:03 PM, Marcus Lange<ma...@wtnet.de>
>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would prefer Bugzilla, too. We have already migrated recently to
>> this, so
>>>>>> transition would be much easier to bring it into Apache. And because
>> of
>>>>>> OOo's project size I would also like to see a new instance.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not because of project size, but also for the sake of preserving the
>>>>> issue-numbers that are spread all over the place, last but not least
>>>>> in the code itself.
>>>>>
>>>>> So whatever you choose, make sure that there is a way to get form
>>>>> #i1234# to the actual bug that corresponds to the id.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, keeping issue ids is the most important thing. Which bug tracker we
>> use would be a second order priority for me.
>>>
>>> There seems to be consensus.
>>>
>>> (1) We must somehow preserve the old bugzilla ids.
>>>
>>> (2) There is no clear preference on Bugzilla over JIRA.
>>>
>>> I think that we need to ask the infrastructure team what they think about
>> the situation.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Dave
>>
>
>
>
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
MzK
"He's got that New Orleans thing crawling all over him, that good stuff,
that 'We Are the Champions', to hell with the rest and
I'll just start over kind of attitude."
-- "1 Dead in the Attic", Chris Rose
Re: Speaking of JIRA, Where's Ours?
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 12:54, Rob Weir <ap...@robweir.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 12:12 PM, Alexandro Colorado <jz...@openoffice.org> wrote:
>> On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Rob Weir <ap...@robweir.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'd like to reopen this question,since I haven't seen a resolution.
>>>
>>> I'm hearing some proposing Bugzilla, because of familiarity and ease
>>> of migration.
>>>
>>> I'm also hearing some say that JIRA is superior.
>>>
>>> I'm not really persuaded by either argument. I wonder if we could
>>> briefly drill down into this a bit more.
>>>
>>> 1) I read that the OOo bugzilla has been customized. Can anyone
>>> explain the nature of the customizations?
>>>
>>> 2) In what sense if JIRA better? IMHO all defect tracking systems
>>> suck. But I'm open to the possibility that some suck less.
>>>
>>> 3) On migration, would it be reasonable to attempt a sandboxed trial
>>> migration of Bugzilla to JIRA, and let skeptics poke at it for a
>>> while, to see if, for example, IDs are preserved, etc.? Would that be
>>> much work? The easiest way to convince people that JIRA is possible
>>> and reasonable might be to actually do it.
>>>
>>> 4) What are the downsides of Bugzilla? If it is a supported option at
>>> Apache, wouldn't that be the obvious choice? I think we'd need to
>>> make a good case for why an alternative would be better. What are,
>>> say, the top 3 things that JIRA would do better than Bugzilla?
>>>
>>
>> I can argually say that both suck, the issue tracker that I have seen
>> easiest is the one provided by google code.
>>
>> The problem with that tracker is that I am not sure is doable for larger
>> projects.
The Chromium project uses Google Code's tracker[1]. They're over
88,000 bugs now and going.
>> The biggest hump of using an issue tracker is locating the right people
>> (subcomponent) to get the issue to, or asigning a developer to it. whcih
>> most times is not aparent. The previous OOo (Collabnet) supported templates
>> which fill out your issue tracker in order to submit the issues faster.
>> However I found not many people really used it.
>>
>
> There are two audiences (at least) for the tracker:
>
> 1) Project members, who know their way around, know the sub components, etc.
>
> 2) Users, or other who submit a defect report rarely. They need an
> easy way to enter a bug report and check its status later.
Totally agree. And that was the basis of my design for the Google Code
tracker. I wanted it real easy for the users to submit a bug, and
possibly attach stuff. They only need a short description, and then
details. Users know *nothing* about subcomponents, assignees,
milestones, whatever. The developers would then triage the new bugs
and apply the correct tags.
Jason Robbins built the tracker using those key principles, and I
think it turned out very well. Of course, I'm biased. But still :-)
If we wanted to use it, then we could fire up a project on
apache-extras.org and use it. We can use its API to import all the old
bugs.
>...
> And what if we didn't assign developers at all? What if instead we
> had project volunteers claim what issues they want to work on and
> self-assign them?
I'd prefer this approach. It is generally best to view the bugs as
owned by the community. That you don't have "one developer" assigned
to a component. And that anybody can grab a bug and start working.
>...
Cheers,
-g
[1] http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/list
Re: Speaking of JIRA, Where's Ours?
Posted by Rob Weir <ap...@robweir.com>.
On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 12:12 PM, Alexandro Colorado <jz...@openoffice.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Rob Weir <ap...@robweir.com> wrote:
>
>> I'd like to reopen this question,since I haven't seen a resolution.
>>
>> I'm hearing some proposing Bugzilla, because of familiarity and ease
>> of migration.
>>
>> I'm also hearing some say that JIRA is superior.
>>
>> I'm not really persuaded by either argument. I wonder if we could
>> briefly drill down into this a bit more.
>>
>> 1) I read that the OOo bugzilla has been customized. Can anyone
>> explain the nature of the customizations?
>>
>> 2) In what sense if JIRA better? IMHO all defect tracking systems
>> suck. But I'm open to the possibility that some suck less.
>>
>> 3) On migration, would it be reasonable to attempt a sandboxed trial
>> migration of Bugzilla to JIRA, and let skeptics poke at it for a
>> while, to see if, for example, IDs are preserved, etc.? Would that be
>> much work? The easiest way to convince people that JIRA is possible
>> and reasonable might be to actually do it.
>>
>> 4) What are the downsides of Bugzilla? If it is a supported option at
>> Apache, wouldn't that be the obvious choice? I think we'd need to
>> make a good case for why an alternative would be better. What are,
>> say, the top 3 things that JIRA would do better than Bugzilla?
>>
>
> I can argually say that both suck, the issue tracker that I have seen
> easiest is the one provided by google code.
>
> The problem with that tracker is that I am not sure is doable for larger
> projects.
>
> The biggest hump of using an issue tracker is locating the right people
> (subcomponent) to get the issue to, or asigning a developer to it. whcih
> most times is not aparent. The previous OOo (Collabnet) supported templates
> which fill out your issue tracker in order to submit the issues faster.
> However I found not many people really used it.
>
There are two audiences (at least) for the tracker:
1) Project members, who know their way around, know the sub components, etc.
2) Users, or other who submit a defect report rarely. They need an
easy way to enter a bug report and check its status later.
I'm assuming:
1) Project members will usually get the assignments right for the
defects they submit, regardless of whether we use JIRA or Bugzilla.
2) Users will almost never get the assignments right, regardless of
what we do to help them.
If that is generally true, then project members will need to monitor
incoming defect reports, via the issues list, and categorize them as
needed. This is true whether we use JIRA or Bugzilla.
And what if we didn't assign developers at all? What if instead we
had project volunteers claim what issues they want to work on and
self-assign them?
(Btw, JIRA does have the idea of a component owner that can be
automatically assigned to new issues, if we did want to use that
approach)
-Rob
> I can go to JIRA and find the feature list and compare it with Bugzilla, and
> I can see there are some minor advantages, but I agree that the familiarity
> of bugzilla is usually lower the learning curve for most people. I mean
> whats the point of having a better issue tracker if the users don't get it
> right away?
>
>
>
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 12:44 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:17 AM, Mathias Bauer wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 16.06.2011 16:45, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
>> >>> Hi *,
>> >>>
>> >>> (to moderators: I guess the list software used checks on Sender, not
>> >>> on From - so if you need to review this message, please add the sender
>> >>> address to a "allowed posters" lists for both dev and notifications
>> >>> please)
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 1:03 PM, Marcus Lange<ma...@wtnet.de>
>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I would prefer Bugzilla, too. We have already migrated recently to
>> this, so
>> >>>> transition would be much easier to bring it into Apache. And because
>> of
>> >>>> OOo's project size I would also like to see a new instance.
>> >>>
>> >>> Not because of project size, but also for the sake of preserving the
>> >>> issue-numbers that are spread all over the place, last but not least
>> >>> in the code itself.
>> >>>
>> >>> So whatever you choose, make sure that there is a way to get form
>> >>> #i1234# to the actual bug that corresponds to the id.
>> >>
>> >> Yes, keeping issue ids is the most important thing. Which bug tracker we
>> use would be a second order priority for me.
>> >
>> > There seems to be consensus.
>> >
>> > (1) We must somehow preserve the old bugzilla ids.
>> >
>> > (2) There is no clear preference on Bugzilla over JIRA.
>> >
>> > I think that we need to ask the infrastructure team what they think about
>> the situation.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Dave
>>
>
>
>
> --
> *Alexandro Colorado*
> *OpenOffice.org* Español
> http://es.openoffice.org
>
Re: Speaking of JIRA, Where's Ours?
Posted by "Pedro F. Giffuni" <gi...@tutopia.com>.
--- On Thu, 6/30/11, Alexandro Colorado <jz...@openoffice.org> wrote:
...
>
> I can go to JIRA and find the feature list and compare it
> with Bugzilla, and I can see there are some minor advantages,
Please do so :).
> but I agree that the familiarity
> of bugzilla is usually lower the learning curve for most
> people. I mean whats the point of having a better issue
> tracker if the users don't get it right away?
>
The learning curve here is not at all a big issue here.
The maintenance that may be a problem is done by infra@
and the rest is not difficult. We are already learning
SVN and a new Wiki package so adding JIRA to the new
toolset is not a showstopper. Also, IMHO, this is a good
opportunity to have a fresh start and use the best tools
available for the job.
Pedro.
Re: Speaking of JIRA, Where's Ours?
Posted by Alexandro Colorado <jz...@openoffice.org>.
On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Rob Weir <ap...@robweir.com> wrote:
> I'd like to reopen this question,since I haven't seen a resolution.
>
> I'm hearing some proposing Bugzilla, because of familiarity and ease
> of migration.
>
> I'm also hearing some say that JIRA is superior.
>
> I'm not really persuaded by either argument. I wonder if we could
> briefly drill down into this a bit more.
>
> 1) I read that the OOo bugzilla has been customized. Can anyone
> explain the nature of the customizations?
>
> 2) In what sense if JIRA better? IMHO all defect tracking systems
> suck. But I'm open to the possibility that some suck less.
>
> 3) On migration, would it be reasonable to attempt a sandboxed trial
> migration of Bugzilla to JIRA, and let skeptics poke at it for a
> while, to see if, for example, IDs are preserved, etc.? Would that be
> much work? The easiest way to convince people that JIRA is possible
> and reasonable might be to actually do it.
>
> 4) What are the downsides of Bugzilla? If it is a supported option at
> Apache, wouldn't that be the obvious choice? I think we'd need to
> make a good case for why an alternative would be better. What are,
> say, the top 3 things that JIRA would do better than Bugzilla?
>
I can argually say that both suck, the issue tracker that I have seen
easiest is the one provided by google code.
The problem with that tracker is that I am not sure is doable for larger
projects.
The biggest hump of using an issue tracker is locating the right people
(subcomponent) to get the issue to, or asigning a developer to it. whcih
most times is not aparent. The previous OOo (Collabnet) supported templates
which fill out your issue tracker in order to submit the issues faster.
However I found not many people really used it.
I can go to JIRA and find the feature list and compare it with Bugzilla, and
I can see there are some minor advantages, but I agree that the familiarity
of bugzilla is usually lower the learning curve for most people. I mean
whats the point of having a better issue tracker if the users don't get it
right away?
>
> -Rob
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 12:44 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
> >
> > On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:17 AM, Mathias Bauer wrote:
> >
> >> On 16.06.2011 16:45, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
> >>> Hi *,
> >>>
> >>> (to moderators: I guess the list software used checks on Sender, not
> >>> on From - so if you need to review this message, please add the sender
> >>> address to a "allowed posters" lists for both dev and notifications
> >>> please)
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 1:03 PM, Marcus Lange<ma...@wtnet.de>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I would prefer Bugzilla, too. We have already migrated recently to
> this, so
> >>>> transition would be much easier to bring it into Apache. And because
> of
> >>>> OOo's project size I would also like to see a new instance.
> >>>
> >>> Not because of project size, but also for the sake of preserving the
> >>> issue-numbers that are spread all over the place, last but not least
> >>> in the code itself.
> >>>
> >>> So whatever you choose, make sure that there is a way to get form
> >>> #i1234# to the actual bug that corresponds to the id.
> >>
> >> Yes, keeping issue ids is the most important thing. Which bug tracker we
> use would be a second order priority for me.
> >
> > There seems to be consensus.
> >
> > (1) We must somehow preserve the old bugzilla ids.
> >
> > (2) There is no clear preference on Bugzilla over JIRA.
> >
> > I think that we need to ask the infrastructure team what they think about
> the situation.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Dave
>
--
*Alexandro Colorado*
*OpenOffice.org* Español
http://es.openoffice.org
Re: Speaking of JIRA, Where's Ours?
Posted by Rob Weir <ap...@robweir.com>.
I'd like to reopen this question,since I haven't seen a resolution.
I'm hearing some proposing Bugzilla, because of familiarity and ease
of migration.
I'm also hearing some say that JIRA is superior.
I'm not really persuaded by either argument. I wonder if we could
briefly drill down into this a bit more.
1) I read that the OOo bugzilla has been customized. Can anyone
explain the nature of the customizations?
2) In what sense if JIRA better? IMHO all defect tracking systems
suck. But I'm open to the possibility that some suck less.
3) On migration, would it be reasonable to attempt a sandboxed trial
migration of Bugzilla to JIRA, and let skeptics poke at it for a
while, to see if, for example, IDs are preserved, etc.? Would that be
much work? The easiest way to convince people that JIRA is possible
and reasonable might be to actually do it.
4) What are the downsides of Bugzilla? If it is a supported option at
Apache, wouldn't that be the obvious choice? I think we'd need to
make a good case for why an alternative would be better. What are,
say, the top 3 things that JIRA would do better than Bugzilla?
-Rob
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 12:44 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:17 AM, Mathias Bauer wrote:
>
>> On 16.06.2011 16:45, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
>>> Hi *,
>>>
>>> (to moderators: I guess the list software used checks on Sender, not
>>> on From - so if you need to review this message, please add the sender
>>> address to a "allowed posters" lists for both dev and notifications
>>> please)
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 1:03 PM, Marcus Lange<ma...@wtnet.de> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I would prefer Bugzilla, too. We have already migrated recently to this, so
>>>> transition would be much easier to bring it into Apache. And because of
>>>> OOo's project size I would also like to see a new instance.
>>>
>>> Not because of project size, but also for the sake of preserving the
>>> issue-numbers that are spread all over the place, last but not least
>>> in the code itself.
>>>
>>> So whatever you choose, make sure that there is a way to get form
>>> #i1234# to the actual bug that corresponds to the id.
>>
>> Yes, keeping issue ids is the most important thing. Which bug tracker we use would be a second order priority for me.
>
> There seems to be consensus.
>
> (1) We must somehow preserve the old bugzilla ids.
>
> (2) There is no clear preference on Bugzilla over JIRA.
>
> I think that we need to ask the infrastructure team what they think about the situation.
>
> Regards,
> Dave
Re: Speaking of JIRA, Where's Ours?
Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:17 AM, Mathias Bauer wrote:
> On 16.06.2011 16:45, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
>> Hi *,
>>
>> (to moderators: I guess the list software used checks on Sender, not
>> on From - so if you need to review this message, please add the sender
>> address to a "allowed posters" lists for both dev and notifications
>> please)
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 1:03 PM, Marcus Lange<ma...@wtnet.de> wrote:
>>>
>>> I would prefer Bugzilla, too. We have already migrated recently to this, so
>>> transition would be much easier to bring it into Apache. And because of
>>> OOo's project size I would also like to see a new instance.
>>
>> Not because of project size, but also for the sake of preserving the
>> issue-numbers that are spread all over the place, last but not least
>> in the code itself.
>>
>> So whatever you choose, make sure that there is a way to get form
>> #i1234# to the actual bug that corresponds to the id.
>
> Yes, keeping issue ids is the most important thing. Which bug tracker we use would be a second order priority for me.
There seems to be consensus.
(1) We must somehow preserve the old bugzilla ids.
(2) There is no clear preference on Bugzilla over JIRA.
I think that we need to ask the infrastructure team what they think about the situation.
Regards,
Dave
Re: Speaking of JIRA, Where's Ours?
Posted by Mathias Bauer <Ma...@gmx.net>.
On 16.06.2011 16:45, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
> Hi *,
>
> (to moderators: I guess the list software used checks on Sender, not
> on From - so if you need to review this message, please add the sender
> address to a "allowed posters" lists for both dev and notifications
> please)
>
> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 1:03 PM, Marcus Lange<ma...@wtnet.de> wrote:
>>
>> I would prefer Bugzilla, too. We have already migrated recently to this, so
>> transition would be much easier to bring it into Apache. And because of
>> OOo's project size I would also like to see a new instance.
>
> Not because of project size, but also for the sake of preserving the
> issue-numbers that are spread all over the place, last but not least
> in the code itself.
>
> So whatever you choose, make sure that there is a way to get form
> #i1234# to the actual bug that corresponds to the id.
Yes, keeping issue ids is the most important thing. Which bug tracker we
use would be a second order priority for me.
Regards,
Mathias
Re: Speaking of JIRA, Where's Ours?
Posted by Christian Lohmaier <cl...@openoffice.org>.
Hi *,
(to moderators: I guess the list software used checks on Sender, not
on From - so if you need to review this message, please add the sender
address to a "allowed posters" lists for both dev and notifications
please)
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 1:03 PM, Marcus Lange <ma...@wtnet.de> wrote:
>
> I would prefer Bugzilla, too. We have already migrated recently to this, so
> transition would be much easier to bring it into Apache. And because of
> OOo's project size I would also like to see a new instance.
Not because of project size, but also for the sake of preserving the
issue-numbers that are spread all over the place, last but not least
in the code itself.
So whatever you choose, make sure that there is a way to get form
#i1234# to the actual bug that corresponds to the id.
ciao
Christian
Re: Speaking of JIRA, Where's Ours?
Posted by Marcus Lange <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Hi all,
I would prefer Bugzilla, too. We have already migrated recently to this,
so transition would be much easier to bring it into Apache. And because
of OOo's project size I would also like to see a new instance.
Marcus
Am 06/16/2011 05:09 AM, schrieb Greg Stein:
> Below, I was referring to the INFRA-3684 ticket.
>
> I haven't been tracking the list as closely today. I'm not sure where
> the consensus landed on the "which bug tracking system?" question.
> Once that choice is made, then somebody can file a ticket with INFRA
> to set up the ticketing system.
>
> Note: if Bugzilla is chosen, then we will want a "new" instance,
> rather than using the shared Bugzilla instance. That will allow us to
> port over the old BZ database.
Re: Speaking of JIRA, Where's Ours?
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
Below, I was referring to the INFRA-3684 ticket.
I haven't been tracking the list as closely today. I'm not sure where
the consensus landed on the "which bug tracking system?" question.
Once that choice is made, then somebody can file a ticket with INFRA
to set up the ticketing system.
Note: if Bugzilla is chosen, then we will want a "new" instance,
rather than using the shared Bugzilla instance. That will allow us to
port over the old BZ database.
And there is no such thing as "project lead" at Apache. Everybody is a peer.
Cheers,
-g
On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 22:34, Dennis E. Hamilton
<de...@acm.org> wrote:
> I notice that there is no JIRA Incubator Project for OpenOffice yet.
>
> Something the project lead does? (Now we get to find out who that is.)
>
> - Dennis
>
> PS: I thought that might be an issue for the JIRA Incubator Incubator Project, and then I thought, nahhh.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Greg Stein [mailto:gstein@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 17:40
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Update on Wiki and Website
>
> On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 20:32, Roman H. Gelbort
> <ro...@piensalibre.com.ar> wrote:
>> El 15/06/11 20:32, Rob Weir escribió:
>>> I'm catching up after a day away from my desk. A quick update.
>>>
>>> Dave entered a request [1] for two wiki spaces, one oo-dev for project
>>> planning and one oo-user (experimental) for user-facing pages.
>>>
>>> I'm hearing no objections to trying the CMS for the web site rather than
>>> using a wiki or Velocity. I'm reading up on that based on the links that
>>> Ross posted earlier.
>>>
>>> [1] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-3684
>>>
>>> -Rob
>>>
>> oo-dev and oo-user or... ooo-dev and ooo-user?
>
> In the JIRA ticket, it is listed as ooo-dev and ooo-user.
>
> Cheers,
> -g
>
>