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Posted to dev@avalon.apache.org by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org> on 2004/03/04 20:06:14 UTC
Re: Under Merlin's hood (WAS: RE: [avalon] roadmap - library crit eria )
On Friday 05 March 2004 02:35, Hamilton Verissimo de Oliveira (Engenharia -
SPO) wrote:
> Sounds that majority agree with simplicity.
The majority of the current inactive committers, that is...
It is easy to say "I am in favour of simplicity"... but "Simple for WHO?"
Simple for the container developers?
Simple for the component Authour?
Simple for the component User?
And don't tell me that it can be for all at the same time, that is plainly
naive thinking.
Cheers
Niclas
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Re: Under Merlin's hood (WAS: RE: [avalon] roadmap - library crit
eria )
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@d-haven.org>.
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> On Friday 05 March 2004 03:11, Jonathan Hawkes wrote:
>
>>You say that as if it were a bad thing. :) A lot of great things have come
>>out of foolish optimism.
>
>
> Yet more people have died trying :o)
>
You take no risk, you get no glory.
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Re: Under Merlin's hood (WAS: RE: [avalon] roadmap - library crit eria )
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Friday 05 March 2004 03:11, Jonathan Hawkes wrote:
> You say that as if it were a bad thing. :) A lot of great things have come
> out of foolish optimism.
Yet more people have died trying :o)
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Re: Under Merlin's hood (WAS: RE: [avalon] roadmap - library crit eria )
Posted by Jonathan Hawkes <jh...@adsnm.com>.
> It is easy to say "I am in favour of simplicity"... but "Simple for WHO?"
>
> Simple for the container developers?
> Simple for the component Authour?
> Simple for the component User?
>
> And don't tell me that it can be for all at the same time, that is plainly
> naive thinking.
You say that as if it were a bad thing. :) A lot of great things have come
out of foolish optimism.
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Re: [OT] Under Merlin's hood
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Leo Simons wrote:
> Niclas Hedhman wrote:
>
>> On Friday 05 March 2004 03:35, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>
>>> -- Edsger W. Dijkstra
>>> "a discipline of programming", 1976
>>
>>
>> Deep stuff for its time indeed, especially considering what was
>> considered "great achievements" of its time.
>
>
> Dijkstra was Dutch, did you know that? You know someone else who is
> Dutch and who writes about computing?
*chuckle*
Who could that be?
Steve.
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Re: [OT] Under Merlin's hood
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Friday 05 March 2004 04:32, Leo Simons wrote:
> Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> > On Friday 05 March 2004 03:35, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> >> -- Edsger W. Dijkstra
> >> "a discipline of programming", 1976
> >
> > Deep stuff for its time indeed, especially considering what was
> > considered "great achievements" of its time.
>
> Dijkstra was Dutch, did you know that? You know someone else who is
> Dutch and who writes about computing?
Yeah, but he is not that deep... He likes simple stuff :o)
Niclas
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RE: [OT] Under Merlin's hood
Posted by Leo Sutic <le...@inspireinfrastructure.com>.
> From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Leo Simons
>
> Dijkstra was Dutch, did you know that? You know someone else who is
> Dutch and who writes about computing?
I have no idea.
But I do know that M.C. Escher was Dutch, and I know this dutch guy
that regularly comes up with impossible structures.
(http://www.mcescher.com/Biography/lw439f14.jpg)
/LS
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[OT] Under Merlin's hood
Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> On Friday 05 March 2004 03:35, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
>> -- Edsger W. Dijkstra
>> "a discipline of programming", 1976
>
> Deep stuff for its time indeed, especially considering what was considered
> "great achievements" of its time.
Dijkstra was Dutch, did you know that? You know someone else who is
Dutch and who writes about computing?
--
cheers,
- Leo Simons
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Re: Under Merlin's hood (WAS: RE: [avalon] roadmap - library crit eria )
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Friday 05 March 2004 03:35, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> "I knew that programs could have a compelling and deep logical beauty,
> on the other hand I was forced to admit that most programs are
> presented in a way fit for mechanical execution, but even if of any
> beauty at all, totally unfit for human appreciation."
>
> -- Edsger W. Dijkstra
> "a discipline of programming", 1976
Deep stuff for its time indeed, especially considering what was considered
"great achievements" of its time.
My interpretation of the above, is that some here can appreciate the beauty of
apparent internal complexity, built out of simplicity, yet creating
simplicity. (Compare; Julia & Mandelbrot algorithms)
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RE: Under Merlin's hood (WAS: RE: [avalon] roadmap - library crit eria )
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> It is easy to say "I am in favour of simplicity"... but "Simple for WHO?"
> Simple for the component User?
> Simple for the component Authour?
> Simple for the container developers?
As ordered above. With the priority on the first two. If it is too
difficult for users, authors won't have a community. If it is too difficult
for authors, Avalon won't have a community.
> And don't tell me that it can be for all at the same time, that is plainly
> naive thinking.
"I knew that programs could have a compelling and deep logical beauty,
on the other hand I was forced to admit that most programs are
presented in a way fit for mechanical execution, but even if of any
beauty at all, totally unfit for human appreciation."
-- Edsger W. Dijkstra
"a discipline of programming", 1976
Dijkstra goes on to say that "a carefully chosen separation of concerns is
essential in every respect for the design of high-quality programs."
Dijkstra defines his meaning on page 211, but I think that even the most
pressed for time of us can afford to read the very short entirety of Chapter
27 (209-217).
--- Noel
(who grew up on such texts, and thinks they should be mandatory
reading)
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