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Posted to dev@maven.apache.org by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> on 2012/07/22 14:41:43 UTC
Snark on the users list
Look, I know that we get lots of very provocatively clueless queries
on the user list.
However, I don't think that it's a good idea to be as acerbic as some
of us have been lately.
My advice is this: if you are out of patience with clueless email,
just don't answer it. If you have a little patience, post a
boilerplate email pointing to online resources.
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Re: Snark on the users list
Posted by Mirko Friedenhagen <mf...@gmail.com>.
Hello Benson,
looking at http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/maven/site/trunk/src/site/apt/guides/getting-started/maven-in-five-minutes.apt?r1=1243212&r2=1364633&pathrev=1364633&diff_format=h
Maybe you could point out that Maven users (or developers in general
:-)) are better off installing the JDK.
Regards Mirko
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Re: Snark on the users list
Posted by Jesse Farinacci <ji...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 9:56 AM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Rev 1364633 is a small contribution to more stuff to link to.
Nice job, Benson.
-Jesse
--
There are 10 types of people in this world, those
that can read binary and those that can not.
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Re: Snark on the users list
Posted by Chris Graham <ch...@gmail.com>.
Um, no we don't.
-Chris
On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 12:08 PM, Wayne Fay <wa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> user community is not a great place to get it, since that community
> >>> expects that users have this level of skill and experience.
> >>
> >> -1 ... this really is off putting.
> >
> > Oh, well, so much for that idea.
>
> We just need someone to use the izPack or NSIS maven plugins against
> Maven itself, and produce an installer for Windows... ;)
>
> Wayne
>
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>
Re: Snark on the users list
Posted by Wayne Fay <wa...@gmail.com>.
>>> user community is not a great place to get it, since that community
>>> expects that users have this level of skill and experience.
>>
>> -1 ... this really is off putting.
>
> Oh, well, so much for that idea.
We just need someone to use the izPack or NSIS maven plugins against
Maven itself, and produce an installer for Windows... ;)
Wayne
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Re: Snark on the users list
Posted by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 5:05 PM, Barrie Treloar <ba...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 10:26 PM, Benson Margulies
> <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I don't see any problem with a clear statement that 'maven is a
>> development tool for developers'. I agree that going past that to any
>> of the recent attempts to encode RTFM or 'go find a buddy' into some
>> sort of sentence on the web site is a loser, in spite of my attempt to
>> craft one.
>
> Do we back out the my changes to
> guides/getting-started/maven-in-five-minutes.apt then?
No, but I might try another edit to reconcile the various opinons.
>
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Re: Snark on the users list
Posted by Barrie Treloar <ba...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 10:26 PM, Benson Margulies
<bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't see any problem with a clear statement that 'maven is a
> development tool for developers'. I agree that going past that to any
> of the recent attempts to encode RTFM or 'go find a buddy' into some
> sort of sentence on the web site is a loser, in spite of my attempt to
> craft one.
Do we back out the my changes to
guides/getting-started/maven-in-five-minutes.apt then?
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Re: Snark on the users list
Posted by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>.
I don't see any problem with a clear statement that 'maven is a
development tool for developers'. I agree that going past that to any
of the recent attempts to encode RTFM or 'go find a buddy' into some
sort of sentence on the web site is a loser, in spite of my attempt to
craft one.
On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 10:24 PM, Barrie Treloar <ba...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 11:52 AM, Jesse Farinacci <ji...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Greetings,
> [del]
>> I guess I don't think anyone that we'd like to tell STFU and RTFM will
>> read any manual anyway. The people that will read the manual will be a
>> bit put off, I suspect, by the harsh way we treat the unseasoned.
>
> Yes, exactly.
>
>> So we don't get any benefit from having such language around. It would
>> be far better to just get a really good FAQ and Cookbook (a la
>> Sonatype's thing) where we can just respond with a single link and
>> that will end the thread. In addition, linking to existing solutions
>> will result in (minimal) search engine optimization for those sites
>> via cross linking, etc, thereby promoting those FAQ/Recipes higher in
>> searches.
>
> That's why I have this canned response:
> Please have a look at the freely available books at
> http://maven.apache.org/articles.html
>
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Re: Snark on the users list
Posted by Barrie Treloar <ba...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 11:52 AM, Jesse Farinacci <ji...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Greetings,
[del]
> I guess I don't think anyone that we'd like to tell STFU and RTFM will
> read any manual anyway. The people that will read the manual will be a
> bit put off, I suspect, by the harsh way we treat the unseasoned.
Yes, exactly.
> So we don't get any benefit from having such language around. It would
> be far better to just get a really good FAQ and Cookbook (a la
> Sonatype's thing) where we can just respond with a single link and
> that will end the thread. In addition, linking to existing solutions
> will result in (minimal) search engine optimization for those sites
> via cross linking, etc, thereby promoting those FAQ/Recipes higher in
> searches.
That's why I have this canned response:
Please have a look at the freely available books at
http://maven.apache.org/articles.html
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Re: Snark on the users list
Posted by Jesse Farinacci <ji...@gmail.com>.
Greetings,
On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 10:16 PM, Barrie Treloar <ba...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 10:37 AM, Benson Margulies
> <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 8:58 PM, Jesse Farinacci <ji...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 8:40 PM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> If you aren't comfortable with tools like this, but you need to use
>>>> Maven for some reason, you will need to find assistance, and the Maven
>>>> user community is not a great place to get it, since that community
>>>> expects that users have this level of skill and experience.
>>>
>>> -1 ... this really is off putting.
>>
>> Oh, well, so much for that idea.
>
> Hence, my reluctance to add the little bit I did.
> Is there feedback on that?
>
> Personally, I don't mind spelling out the fact that if you are
> clueless about Java and software development then attempting to use
> Maven may not be the best idea for you.
> At least I can then say RTFM :)
I guess I don't think anyone that we'd like to tell STFU and RTFM will
read any manual anyway. The people that will read the manual will be a
bit put off, I suspect, by the harsh way we treat the unseasoned.
So we don't get any benefit from having such language around. It would
be far better to just get a really good FAQ and Cookbook (a la
Sonatype's thing) where we can just respond with a single link and
that will end the thread. In addition, linking to existing solutions
will result in (minimal) search engine optimization for those sites
via cross linking, etc, thereby promoting those FAQ/Recipes higher in
searches.
-Jesse
--
There are 10 types of people in this world, those
that can read binary and those that can not.
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Re: Snark on the users list
Posted by Barrie Treloar <ba...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 10:37 AM, Benson Margulies
<bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 8:58 PM, Jesse Farinacci <ji...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 8:40 PM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> If you aren't comfortable with tools like this, but you need to use
>>> Maven for some reason, you will need to find assistance, and the Maven
>>> user community is not a great place to get it, since that community
>>> expects that users have this level of skill and experience.
>>
>> -1 ... this really is off putting.
>
> Oh, well, so much for that idea.
Hence, my reluctance to add the little bit I did.
Is there feedback on that?
Personally, I don't mind spelling out the fact that if you are
clueless about Java and software development then attempting to use
Maven may not be the best idea for you.
At least I can then say RTFM :)
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Re: Snark on the users list
Posted by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 8:58 PM, Jesse Farinacci <ji...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 8:40 PM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> If you aren't comfortable with tools like this, but you need to use
>> Maven for some reason, you will need to find assistance, and the Maven
>> user community is not a great place to get it, since that community
>> expects that users have this level of skill and experience.
>
> -1 ... this really is off putting.
Oh, well, so much for that idea.
>
> -Jesse
>
> --
> There are 10 types of people in this world, those
> that can read binary and those that can not.
>
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Re: Snark on the users list
Posted by Jesse Farinacci <ji...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 8:40 PM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If you aren't comfortable with tools like this, but you need to use
> Maven for some reason, you will need to find assistance, and the Maven
> user community is not a great place to get it, since that community
> expects that users have this level of skill and experience.
-1 ... this really is off putting.
-Jesse
--
There are 10 types of people in this world, those
that can read binary and those that can not.
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Re: Snark on the users list
Posted by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 6:54 PM, Barrie Treloar <ba...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 7:49 AM, Wayne Fay <wa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Rev 1364633 is a small contribution to more stuff to link to.
>>
>> Also on the Windows pre-reqs page, it might be nice to say something
>> about antivirus software sometimes preventing Java from running
>> properly, or Windows Firewall (and various other Firewalls) actively
>> preventing Java.exe from reaching out to the Internet to "download
>> stuff" which is a key part of Maven -- so that users will know to add
>> exceptions to grant such actions.
How about this:
Maven is a command-line development tool intended for use by
experienced software developers. As such, it does not come in a
package with an installer, and all of the available documentation
assumes that you are familiar with command-line tools. You have to be
prepared to install and work with tools like this to use Maven.
If you aren't comfortable with tools like this, but you need to use
Maven for some reason, you will need to find assistance, and the Maven
user community is not a great place to get it, since that community
expects that users have this level of skill and experience.
>
> Done.
>
> Also added to the 5 min guide:
>
> Prerequisites
>
> You must have an understanding of how to install software on your computer.
> If you do not know how to do this, please ask someone at your
> office, school, etc
> or pay someone to explain this to you. The Maven mailing lists are
> not the best place to ask for this advice.
>
>
> I have only committed this and not redeployed the web site so that
> others can "adjust the tone" of the paragraph. I was reluctant to
> have a negative paragraph as the first thing to do in the 5 minutes
> guide, especially one that says don't contact the mailing list with
> these questions.
>
> Improvements welcome.
>
> p.s. I wonder if the people who are the audience for these changes
> actually read these pages?
>
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Re: Snark on the users list
Posted by Barrie Treloar <ba...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 7:49 AM, Wayne Fay <wa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Rev 1364633 is a small contribution to more stuff to link to.
>
> Also on the Windows pre-reqs page, it might be nice to say something
> about antivirus software sometimes preventing Java from running
> properly, or Windows Firewall (and various other Firewalls) actively
> preventing Java.exe from reaching out to the Internet to "download
> stuff" which is a key part of Maven -- so that users will know to add
> exceptions to grant such actions.
Done.
Also added to the 5 min guide:
Prerequisites
You must have an understanding of how to install software on your computer.
If you do not know how to do this, please ask someone at your
office, school, etc
or pay someone to explain this to you. The Maven mailing lists are
not the best place to ask for this advice.
I have only committed this and not redeployed the web site so that
others can "adjust the tone" of the paragraph. I was reluctant to
have a negative paragraph as the first thing to do in the 5 minutes
guide, especially one that says don't contact the mailing list with
these questions.
Improvements welcome.
p.s. I wonder if the people who are the audience for these changes
actually read these pages?
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Re: Snark on the users list
Posted by Wayne Fay <wa...@gmail.com>.
> Rev 1364633 is a small contribution to more stuff to link to.
Also on the Windows pre-reqs page, it might be nice to say something
about antivirus software sometimes preventing Java from running
properly, or Windows Firewall (and various other Firewalls) actively
preventing Java.exe from reaching out to the Internet to "download
stuff" which is a key part of Maven -- so that users will know to add
exceptions to grant such actions.
Wayne
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Re: Snark on the users list
Posted by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>.
Rev 1364633 is a small contribution to more stuff to link to.
On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 8:41 AM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Look, I know that we get lots of very provocatively clueless queries
> on the user list.
>
> However, I don't think that it's a good idea to be as acerbic as some
> of us have been lately.
>
> My advice is this: if you are out of patience with clueless email,
> just don't answer it. If you have a little patience, post a
> boilerplate email pointing to online resources.
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Re: Snark on the users list
Posted by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>.
A number of people have contacted me off-list about this.
I really didn't want to call anyone out on this topic. This is a mixed
bag. Citing specific threads would make it concrete what I'm point at,
but it would call people out. I'll respond to the off-list threads.
I'll go this far; we've had (I think) two pretty help-vampirish people
turn up recently with an awe-inspiring lack of the necessary minimal
background in using Windows and Java to have any business trying to
use Maven.
Another aspect of the situation is that a few people are carrying a
disproportionate amount of the load of dealing with the user list, and
if some of the rest of us would step up more, that would be better.
On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 10:06 AM, Martin Gainty <mg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> correct ..these posts are broadcast worldwide (and then stored as google links).. I am 3500 miles from Bensons location but i am fully capable of reading his emails! I agree the older and wiser maven committee members *should* set a good example so that other maven committers adhere to "the higher Maven standard"BUT this rule *should* apply for all apache committee members! if this rule is broken a corrective email such as this one should be sent to the committee member to adhere to the "properly formatted response"
> This would be a "shot across the bow" from the "Maven Hague" +1
> Martin
> ______________________________________________
> Jogi és Bizalmassági kinyilatkoztatás/Verzicht und Vertraulichkeitanmerkung/Note de déni et de confidentialité
> Ez az
> üzenet bizalmas. Ha nem ön az akinek szánva volt, akkor kérjük, hogy
> jelentse azt nekünk vissza. Semmiféle továbbítása vagy másolatának
> készítése nem megengedett. Ez az üzenet csak ismeret cserét szolgál és
> semmiféle jogi alkalmazhatósága sincs. Mivel az electronikus üzenetek
> könnyen megváltoztathatóak, ezért minket semmi felelöség nem terhelhet
> ezen üzenet tartalma miatt.
>
> Diese Nachricht ist vertraulich. Sollten Sie nicht der vorgesehene Empfaenger sein, so bitten wir hoeflich um eine Mitteilung. Jede unbefugte Weiterleitung oder Fertigung einer Kopie ist unzulaessig. Diese Nachricht dient lediglich dem Austausch von Informationen und entfaltet keine rechtliche Bindungswirkung. Aufgrund der leichten Manipulierbarkeit von E-Mails koennen wir keine Haftung fuer den Inhalt uebernehmen.
> Ce message est confidentiel et peut être privilégié. Si vous n'êtes pas le destinataire prévu, nous te demandons avec bonté que pour satisfaire informez l'expéditeur. N'importe quelle diffusion non autorisée ou la copie de ceci est interdite. Ce message sert à l'information seulement et n'aura pas n'importe quel effet légalement obligatoire. Étant donné que les email peuvent facilement être sujets à la manipulation, nous ne pouvons accepter aucune responsabilité pour le contenu fourni.
>
> > Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 08:41:43 -0400
>> Subject: Snark on the users list
>> From: bimargulies@gmail.com
>> To: dev@maven.apache.org
>>
>> Look, I know that we get lots of very provocatively clueless queries
>> on the user list.
>>
>> However, I don't think that it's a good idea to be as acerbic as some
>> of us have been lately.
>>
>> My advice is this: if you are out of patience with clueless email,
>> just don't answer it. If you have a little patience, post a
>> boilerplate email pointing to online resources.
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@maven.apache.org
>>
>
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RE: Snark on the users list
Posted by Martin Gainty <mg...@hotmail.com>.
correct ..these posts are broadcast worldwide (and then stored as google links).. I am 3500 miles from Bensons location but i am fully capable of reading his emails! I agree the older and wiser maven committee members *should* set a good example so that other maven committers adhere to "the higher Maven standard"BUT this rule *should* apply for all apache committee members! if this rule is broken a corrective email such as this one should be sent to the committee member to adhere to the "properly formatted response"
This would be a "shot across the bow" from the "Maven Hague" +1
Martin
______________________________________________
Jogi és Bizalmassági kinyilatkoztatás/Verzicht und Vertraulichkeitanmerkung/Note de déni et de confidentialité
Ez az
üzenet bizalmas. Ha nem ön az akinek szánva volt, akkor kérjük, hogy
jelentse azt nekünk vissza. Semmiféle továbbítása vagy másolatának
készítése nem megengedett. Ez az üzenet csak ismeret cserét szolgál és
semmiféle jogi alkalmazhatósága sincs. Mivel az electronikus üzenetek
könnyen megváltoztathatóak, ezért minket semmi felelöség nem terhelhet
ezen üzenet tartalma miatt.
Diese Nachricht ist vertraulich. Sollten Sie nicht der vorgesehene Empfaenger sein, so bitten wir hoeflich um eine Mitteilung. Jede unbefugte Weiterleitung oder Fertigung einer Kopie ist unzulaessig. Diese Nachricht dient lediglich dem Austausch von Informationen und entfaltet keine rechtliche Bindungswirkung. Aufgrund der leichten Manipulierbarkeit von E-Mails koennen wir keine Haftung fuer den Inhalt uebernehmen.
Ce message est confidentiel et peut être privilégié. Si vous n'êtes pas le destinataire prévu, nous te demandons avec bonté que pour satisfaire informez l'expéditeur. N'importe quelle diffusion non autorisée ou la copie de ceci est interdite. Ce message sert à l'information seulement et n'aura pas n'importe quel effet légalement obligatoire. Étant donné que les email peuvent facilement être sujets à la manipulation, nous ne pouvons accepter aucune responsabilité pour le contenu fourni.
> Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 08:41:43 -0400
> Subject: Snark on the users list
> From: bimargulies@gmail.com
> To: dev@maven.apache.org
>
> Look, I know that we get lots of very provocatively clueless queries
> on the user list.
>
> However, I don't think that it's a good idea to be as acerbic as some
> of us have been lately.
>
> My advice is this: if you are out of patience with clueless email,
> just don't answer it. If you have a little patience, post a
> boilerplate email pointing to online resources.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@maven.apache.org
>