You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org> on 2008/12/01 06:22:48 UTC
Re: Champion needed for Incubator proposal
On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 7:41 PM, Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com> wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> The Pivot development team would like to submit the Pivot Toolkit for consideration as an Apache Incubator project. Pivot is an open-source platform for building rich internet applications in Java. The project is currently hosted at http://pivot-toolkit.org/ with development hosted at http://code.google.com/p/pivot/. We have recently released version 1.0 and are actively working on version 1.1.
>
> According to the proposal creation guide, the first step in submitting a project is to recruit a champion. If you would be willing to act as a champion on Pivot's behalf, please let us know.
>
I volunteer to Champion this project proposal.
First of all we need to draft a formal proposal. We can do that
off-list and come back with it to this list when ready.
Cheers
Niclas
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Champion needed for Incubator proposal
Posted by melutovich <me...@gmail.com>.
What is the difference between Pivot and Spring Rich Client? Wouldn't it be
better to work together on a single framework?
--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Champion-needed-for-Incubator-proposal-tp20586438p21080642.html
Sent from the Apache Incubator - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Pivot Proposal
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 10:20 AM, Simone Gianni <si...@apache.org> wrote:
> Good examples are many Google apps that display the complete
> layout even if they are still loading in the background, giving the user
> the feeling that everything loaded quickly, while it is still loading in
> the background. I'm pretty sure this can be achieved with applets as well.
Having deployed "heavy" Java applications on clients via both Applet
and JNLP/WebStart (preferred!), I can vouch that it only takes a
little bit extra effort to have the Java app showing 'something'
within a second or so, and loading the rest of the app in your own
bootstrap controlled classloader.
Also, I have been involved in the preview and recommendations to how
to present this proposal to the Incubator, and it didn't strike me
that one should need to spend to compare with JSF, GWT and other
non-Java solutions, when JavaFX is the main 'competitor' and reading
up any paper on "Why JavaFX, instead of X?" would apply here. But
then, perhaps I just got carried away with my own enthusiasm.
Noel's points are otherwise accurate and precise, and I am sure Greg
and Todd will address this asap. Other feedback is of course welcome
early, otherwise there was supposed to be a [Proposal] thread later
on, perhaps after the holidays... Noel kind of short-circuited the
intentions :o)
Cheers
Niclas
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Pivot Proposal
Posted by Simone Gianni <si...@apache.org>.
Greg Brown wrote:
>> All in all, appears to be a very nice proposal. :-)
>>
>> So this looks quite
>> appealing so far, although startup time is slower than I would like, and I
>> am wondering about footprint.
>>
>
> From our experience, startup time when running in J6u10+ is vastly improved over earlier versions, though it is certainly still an issue for users running pre-J6u10 JVMs. Memory footprint is comparable to an AJAX application and can often be less - large-scale AJAX applications can become quite heavy.
>
I can confirm this, had a look at the test pages from my linux box
running an old J6 and then from a windows box updated to last J6 an it
does boost load time. Anyway applets still suffer from basic load time,
while a dhtml/ajax/javascript/whichnameyouprefer application can (but
not always do) display at least something while the .js files are still
loading. Good examples are many Google apps that display the complete
layout even if they are still loading in the background, giving the user
the feeling that everything loaded quickly, while it is still loading in
the background. I'm pretty sure this can be achieved with applets as well.
>
>> Given that the core of your client side appears to be a Java Applet, you
>> might wish to know that I have been to your site and been running the demos
>> under Firefox 3 with Sun's newly released 64-bit Java plugin for linux.
>>
>
> Hopefully the experience was positive? I'm not sure if we've tested that configuration yet.
>
>
I had a look at many demos from both linux and windows, firefox + J6,
and they worked out perfectly.
Simone
--
Simone Gianni CEO Semeru s.r.l. Apache Committer
http://www.simonegianni.it/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Pivot Proposal
Posted by Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com>.
>All in all, appears to be a very nice proposal. :-)
Thanks. :-)
>You might want to reorganize and elaborate a bit. In particular, you list
>Flex, Silverlight, and OpenLazlo up top, but you don't appear to compare
>against them, whereas JavaFX is mentioned and compared against in a sort of
>buried location, and are others in the Java RIA space, such as GWT, are not
>mentioned at all.
Good points. I restructured that section to more clearly articulate how Pivot differs from those platforms, and I added a section comparing Pivot to GWT (currently just stubbed out - will provide more detail later).
>I'd also be interested to know how you feel it might relate to projects such
>as MyFaces (JSF) where one could imagine rich client components as plums in
>a JSP pudding. Given your own references to AJAX and the existence of AJAX
>components for JSF, the question seems begged.
I don't see any reason why Pivot couldn't be used in conjunction with something like MyFaces (or any other server-side framework). We actually tried to generate some interest in the Grails community along these lines earlier in the year, but we didn't have much luck.
>Have you done anything about allowing WS-* (WSDL) Web Services, in addition
>to REST style? Are there any issues? Or would we use REST to reach
>server-side, and go to WS-* type service from the server?
Pivot includes "out-of-the-box" support for REST-style web queries, but Pivot apps are not limited to REST for server communication.
Because it runs in a JRE (as you noted), a Pivot application can take advantage of any client/server protocol that has a Java API. You could use Axis to talk to SOAP-based services, and the source code includes a demo app that talks to a Flex RPC server; see http://java.dzone.com/news/calling-flex-data-services-piv.
>So this looks quite
>appealing so far, although startup time is slower than I would like, and I
>am wondering about footprint.
>From our experience, startup time when running in J6u10+ is vastly improved over earlier versions, though it is certainly still an issue for users running pre-J6u10 JVMs. Memory footprint is comparable to an AJAX application and can often be less - large-scale AJAX applications can become quite heavy.
>Given that the core of your client side appears to be a Java Applet, you
>might wish to know that I have been to your site and been running the demos
>under Firefox 3 with Sun's newly released 64-bit Java plugin for linux.
Hopefully the experience was positive? I'm not sure if we've tested that configuration yet.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Pivot Proposal
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Greg Brown wrote:
> We'll put together a draft proposal
Which is now at http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/PivotProposal.
All in all, appears to be a very nice proposal. :-)
You might want to reorganize and elaborate a bit. In particular, you list
Flex, Silverlight, and OpenLazlo up top, but you don't appear to compare
against them, whereas JavaFX is mentioned and compared against in a sort of
buried location, and are others in the Java RIA space, such as GWT, are not
mentioned at all.
I'd also be interested to know how you feel it might relate to projects such
as MyFaces (JSF) where one could imagine rich client components as plums in
a JSP pudding. Given your own references to AJAX and the existence of AJAX
components for JSF, the question seems begged.
Have you done anything about allowing WS-* (WSDL) Web Services, in addition
to REST style? Are there any issues? Or would we use REST to reach
server-side, and go to WS-* type service from the server?
Am I correct that you require a client-side JRE? I do not have an issue
with it, I just want to confirm what I'm seeing. To the contrary, I've
argued that JavaScript is what is wrong with AJAX, and that we need a
Java-based solution, thus providing a proper security model for the
application code being loaded into the browser. So this looks quite
appealing so far, although startup time is slower than I would like, and I
am wondering about footprint.
Given that the core of your client side appears to be a Java Applet, you
might wish to know that I have been to your site and been running the demos
under Firefox 3 with Sun's newly released 64-bit Java plugin for linux.
--- Noel
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Champion needed for Incubator proposal
Posted by Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com>.
Thanks Niclas! We'll put together a draft proposal and send it to you for review.
Greg
On Monday, December 01, 2008, at 12:22AM, "Niclas Hedhman" <ni...@hedhman.org> wrote:
>On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 7:41 PM, Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com> wrote:
>> Hello all,
>>
>> The Pivot development team would like to submit the Pivot Toolkit for consideration as an Apache Incubator project. Pivot is an open-source platform for building rich internet applications in Java. The project is currently hosted at http://pivot-toolkit.org/ with development hosted at http://code.google.com/p/pivot/. We have recently released version 1.0 and are actively working on version 1.1.
>>
>> According to the proposal creation guide, the first step in submitting a project is to recruit a champion. If you would be willing to act as a champion on Pivot's behalf, please let us know.
>>
>
>I volunteer to Champion this project proposal.
>
>First of all we need to draft a formal proposal. We can do that
>off-list and come back with it to this list when ready.
>
>Cheers
>Niclas
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org