Wiki -> ASF?

[Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>]

Any thoughts on making migrating the wiki to the ASF a priority for
the next few months?

Jira has problems, and being able to run Roller for the website is
still something to convince people of - eating dogfood vs infra being
able to bring the site up easily.  In the recent minotaur problems,
the perl and tcl sites were down for a lot longer than the rest
because they run on their own servers.

Can't see any reason not to do the wiki though. The ASF one is
MoinMoin rather than JSPWiki.

Hen

Re: Wiki -> ASF?

[Sean Gilligan <se...@msgilligan.com>]

I hope we can keep JSPWiki, if at all possible.

-- Sean

Dave Johnson wrote:
> I don't understand why we can't just replicate the setup at
> rollerweblogger.org: Roller + JSPWiki. I'm definitely not looking
> forward to converting the wiki from one wiki syntax to another or
> using a competing and non-free wiki/blog server like Confluence.
> 
> I'm willing to support the Roller/JSPWiki combo just as I have been
> doing at rollerweblogger.org, but I'm not sure I'm willing to spend
> time converting content.
> 
> Are you suggesting converting the entire wiki, or just doing all new
> work on the new wiki?
> 
> - Dave
> 
> 
> On 6/5/06, Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 6/5/06, Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Can't see any reason not to do the wiki though. The ASF one is
>> > MoinMoin rather than JSPWiki.
>>
>> Personally, I find MoinMoin painful to use.  I use it when I
>> absolutely must, otherwise, I flee to Confluence.
>>
>> There's an ongoing effort to get a Confluence server setup at the ASF.
>> In the meantime, there's a server sponsored by Atlassian that we could
>> use, if that's what folks wanted to do.
>>
>> * http://opensource.atlassian.com/confluence/oss/dashboard.action
>>
>> -Ted.
>>
> 
> 

Re: Wiki -> ASF?

[Janne Jalkanen <ja...@gmail.com>]

Yup, OSCache scales really nicely to even high-traffic sites.  I have no
complaints on that...  JSPWiki is  known to be used on sites which have
grown from zero to 20,000 pages in two months, so I think it scales okay to
these mid-sized tiers.

Note that JSPWiki caches things such as page content and the DOM tree (since
2.4).  We don't cache the resulting HTML of all pages, because there are
dynamic plugins which might change on every invocation of the page (such as
the current time).  However, the step from DOM to HTML is in general rather
fast.

/Janne

On 6/6/06, Dave Johnson <sn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 6/6/06, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> > can someone comment on the ability for the Roller + JSPWiki pages
> > to be cached, which is a key performance and resource utilization
> > consideration?
>
> The integration between Roller and JSPWiki is lightweight and so you
> really have to consider them as separate applications.
>
> Roller has a highly configurable caching system and you can even
> plugin external caches like memcached if you want to, but I bet the
> out-of-the-box caching would work just fine. Roller is proven at
> high-traffic sites like blogs.sun.com, JRoller and IBM devWorks so I
> don't think it's performance is going to be an issue on the little
> Roller project site.
>
> JSPWiki uses OSCache for caching. I'm not sure it's been proven at
> high-traffic sites. Maybe Janne can comment on that?
>
> - Dave
>

RE: Wiki -> ASF?

["Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>]

Dave Johnson wrote:

> I'm definitely going to continue blogging at rollerweblogger.org and
> maintaining some sort of blog-technology related wiki there, even if
> all Apache Roller content is moved to apache.org.

Considering that the ASF does not and will not host personal blogs, that is
entirely appropriate.  :-)

> until we can duplicate the existing setup (Roller + JSPWiki)
> somewhere on apache.org, we should have 1) a static site at
> roller.apache.org and 2) continue to host the project
> blog/wiki at rollerweblogger.org.

Seems alright.

	--- Noel

Re: Wiki -> ASF?

[Dave Johnson <sn...@gmail.com>]

I'm definitely going to continue blogging at rollerweblogger.org and
maintaining some sort of blog-technology related wiki there, even if
all Apache Roller content is moved to apache.org.

My feeling is that, until we can duplicate the existing setup (Roller
+ JSPWiki) somewhere on apache.org, we should have 1) a static site at
roller.apache.org and 2) continue to host the project blog/wiki at
rollerweblogger.org. Is that (hopefully temporary) scenerio going to
be problematic?

- Dave


On 6/7/06, Allen Gilliland <al...@sun.com> wrote:
>
>
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > Allen Gilliland wrote:
> >
> >> I think it's worthwhile to wonder what exactly we need/expect
> >> to publish on an official ASF site
> >
> > For $TLP.apache.org, we expect static text that can be maintained (for now)
> > in source control, and can be mirrored to multiple servers.
> >
> >> http://tomcat.apache.org/
> >
> >> it appears to me that they probably accomplish everything on that site
> >> using plain old static html.
> >
> > Exactly.  But see http://cocoon.zones.apache.org/.  Were there similar zones
> > for Tomcat, Jetspeed, Roller, et al, I might expect to find their services
> > being displayed.
> >
> >> i don't see any reason why the Roller project page shouldn't follow
> >> that same basic convention and stick with static content to server
> >> up the official ASF project page for Roller.
> >
> > +1
> >
> >> it seems better to me if we just leave rollerweblogger.org alone
> >
> > Or move it to roller.zones.apache.org.  At some point, we might even like to
> > use Roller to publish official ASF blogs, e.g., project announcements, press
> > releases, etc. --- I do want to differentiate that from personal blogs,
> > since we have established that such won't be happening on ASF
> > infrastructure.
>
> It definitely makes sense to setup something like
> roller.zones.apache.org if we really are going to get other people using
> it, but EOLing a domain is so hard that I don't see the benefit to try
> and move everything off of rollerweblogger.org.  At the very least I
> assume dave will still want to keep the blogs currently there in tact.
>
> Is there a reason we couldn't use blogs.apache.org if we were actually
> going to user Roller as the ASF blogging site?
>
> -- Allen
>
>
> >
> >       --- Noel
> >
>

Re: Wiki -> ASF?

[Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>]

On 6/8/06, Dave Johnson <sn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As a side note: I think it's interesting that big Fortune 500
> corporations like Sun and Microsoft are more open, more transparent
> and more trusting of their own people than Apache when it comes to
> blogging, wikis, etc.

Well, first, the members *are* the corporation here. There is not us
and them, it's all us.

And it's only blogging. I'm not aware of any et ceteras. No one is
policing the mailing lists, web sites, or wiki's.

I missed the blogging discussions, but I expect that the core problem
is that we are all moonlighters, wearing many hats. People reading
individual blogs don't know whether we are wearing our ASF hat or our
Sun hat or our Google hat. If we were all actual employees of the ASF,
then I expect it would be different. There is a lot of peer pressure
to stay on topic on the lists and web sites, but with blogs, things
are more likely to drift.

As a compromise, some ASFers setup PlanetApache. It's a separate
entity, but we maintain a close relationship.

* http://www.PlanetApache.org/

Perhaps one day, PlanetApache could be powered by Roller!

-Ted.

Re: Wiki -> ASF?

[Dave Johnson <sn...@gmail.com>]

On 6/8/06, Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6/7/06, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> > That'd be a discussion point.  The only blogs that we would host would be
> > project related.
>
> Ahh, but where does personal end and project begin? I've seen some
> very opinionated posts made to blogs that are ostensibly set up for a
> project (not ASF projects).
> At ApacheCon, we mentioned using blogs as a reporting tool for
> announcements and perhaps board reports. I would expect that we might
> want the project blogs to be read-only, so as to funnel discussion
> back to the lists.

As a side note: I think it's interesting that big Fortune 500
corporations like Sun and Microsoft are more open, more transparent
and more trusting of their own people than Apache when it comes to
blogging, wikis, etc.

- Dave

RE: Wiki -> ASF?

[Tribley William-cwt010 <W....@motorola.com>]

 Priceless. When you find out, please let me know!!!!!!!!

-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Husted [mailto:ted.husted@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 6:42 AM
To: roller-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Wiki -> ASF?

<-- snip -->

Ahh, but where does personal end and project begin? I've seen some very
opinionated posts made to blogs that are ostensibly set up for a project
(not ASF projects).

Re: Wiki -> ASF?

[Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>]

On 6/7/06, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> That'd be a discussion point.  The only blogs that we would host would be
> project related.

Ahh, but where does personal end and project begin? I've seen some
very opinionated posts made to blogs that are ostensibly set up for a
project (not ASF projects).

At ApacheCon, we mentioned using blogs as a reporting tool for
announcements and perhaps board reports. I would expect that we might
want the project blogs to be read-only, so as to funnel discussion
back to the lists.

Right now, I'm using Roller to host a PlanetStruts site, that is announce-only.

* http://www.planetstruts.org/

(Which I *really* need to update to the latest release candidate.)

-Ted.

RE: Wiki -> ASF?

["Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>]

Allen Gilliland wrote:

> It definitely makes sense to setup something like
> roller.zones.apache.org if we really are going to
> get other people using it

Keep in mind that the ASF has consistently said no to personal blogs in an
apache.org domain, which is why we setup planetapache.org.  Looking at the
rollerweblogger.org site, if the content related to the Roller project moved
to the ASF, the About, News and Dashboard pages would be OK, but the Planet
tab would not.

> EOLing a domain is so hard

It could be pointed at roller.apache.org, or the zone.  Or kept separate,
since Dave's and Lance's personal blogs are there.

> Is there a reason we couldn't use blogs.apache.org if we were actually
> going to user Roller as the ASF blogging site?

That'd be a discussion point.  The only blogs that we would host would be
project related.

	--- Noel

Re: Wiki -> ASF?

[Allen Gilliland <al...@sun.com>]

Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Allen Gilliland wrote:
> 
>> I think it's worthwhile to wonder what exactly we need/expect
>> to publish on an official ASF site
> 
> For $TLP.apache.org, we expect static text that can be maintained (for now)
> in source control, and can be mirrored to multiple servers.
> 
>> http://tomcat.apache.org/
> 
>> it appears to me that they probably accomplish everything on that site
>> using plain old static html.
> 
> Exactly.  But see http://cocoon.zones.apache.org/.  Were there similar zones
> for Tomcat, Jetspeed, Roller, et al, I might expect to find their services
> being displayed.
> 
>> i don't see any reason why the Roller project page shouldn't follow
>> that same basic convention and stick with static content to server
>> up the official ASF project page for Roller.
> 
> +1
> 
>> it seems better to me if we just leave rollerweblogger.org alone
> 
> Or move it to roller.zones.apache.org.  At some point, we might even like to
> use Roller to publish official ASF blogs, e.g., project announcements, press
> releases, etc. --- I do want to differentiate that from personal blogs,
> since we have established that such won't be happening on ASF
> infrastructure.

It definitely makes sense to setup something like 
roller.zones.apache.org if we really are going to get other people using 
it, but EOLing a domain is so hard that I don't see the benefit to try 
and move everything off of rollerweblogger.org.  At the very least I 
assume dave will still want to keep the blogs currently there in tact.

Is there a reason we couldn't use blogs.apache.org if we were actually 
going to user Roller as the ASF blogging site?

-- Allen


> 
> 	--- Noel
> 

RE: Wiki -> ASF?

["Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>]

Allen Gilliland wrote:

> I think it's worthwhile to wonder what exactly we need/expect
> to publish on an official ASF site

For $TLP.apache.org, we expect static text that can be maintained (for now)
in source control, and can be mirrored to multiple servers.

> http://tomcat.apache.org/

> it appears to me that they probably accomplish everything on that site
> using plain old static html.

Exactly.  But see http://cocoon.zones.apache.org/.  Were there similar zones
for Tomcat, Jetspeed, Roller, et al, I might expect to find their services
being displayed.

> i don't see any reason why the Roller project page shouldn't follow
> that same basic convention and stick with static content to server
> up the official ASF project page for Roller.

+1

> it seems better to me if we just leave rollerweblogger.org alone

Or move it to roller.zones.apache.org.  At some point, we might even like to
use Roller to publish official ASF blogs, e.g., project announcements, press
releases, etc. --- I do want to differentiate that from personal blogs,
since we have established that such won't be happening on ASF
infrastructure.

	--- Noel

Re: Wiki -> ASF?

[Allen Gilliland <al...@sun.com>]

I can't say I care too much where the wiki lives, but I think it's 
worthwhile to wonder what exactly we need/expect to publish on an 
official ASF site and what can continue to be done on rollerweblogger.org.

When I take other ASF projects as an example, like the tomcat project 
page ...

http://tomcat.apache.org/

it appears to me that they probably accomplish everything on that site 
using plain old static html.  i don't see any reason why the Roller 
project page shouldn't follow that same basic convention and stick with 
static content to server up the official ASF project page for Roller. 
We don't need an installation of Roller to server up downloads, docs, 
FAQ, and other info about how to contribute.  it seems like it would be 
more of a PITA to try and move stuff from rollerweblogger.org over to 
the ASF and we probably wouldn't see any benefits.

it seems better to me if we just leave rollerweblogger.org alone and use 
it as the Roller project blog site as it has been for a long time now. 
the ASF Roller project page will be standard and can link off to 
rollerweblogger.org for the couple things that need to be hosted 
elsewhere, like the Roller installation and possibly the wiki.

if it turns out we really, really want the wiki to be on the ASF servers 
then i suggest we just pick one of the already supported ASF wikis and 
use that.  i don't think we should mess with trying to put up a new 
Roller installation on ASF hardware, i don't see the benefit.  we are 
already eating our own dog food on a lot of sites, they just aren't 
under apache.org, so what.

-- Allen


Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Dave Johnson wrote:
> 
>> Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
>>> can someone comment on the ability for the Roller + JSPWiki pages
>>> to be cached, which is a key performance and resource utilization
>>> consideration?
> 
>> The integration between Roller and JSPWiki is lightweight and so you
>> really have to consider them as separate applications.
> 
>> Roller has a highly configurable caching system and you can even
>> plugin external caches like memcached if you want to, but I bet
>> the out-of-the-box caching would work just fine.  Roller is proven
>> at high-traffic sites like blogs.sun.com, JRoller and IBM devWorks
> 
> I suspect that the answer is yes, but is Roller compatible with mod_cache
> and other front-end caches?
> 
>> so I don't think it's performance is going to be an issue on the
>> little Roller project site.
> 
> Wasn't overly worried about it.  As you may recall, I suggested at ApacheCon
> US 2005 that Roller look into a zone within which to host the code.
> 
>> JSPWiki uses OSCache for caching. I'm not sure it's been proven at
>> high-traffic sites. Maybe Janne can comment on that?
> 
> Same question as above.  Is JSPWiki compatible with having mod_cache sitting
> in front of it?   MoinMoin was not --- it did things that are termed
> cache-busting --- but we fixed it.
> 
> 	--- Noel
> 

RE: Wiki -> ASF?

["Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>]

Dave Johnson wrote:

> Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> > can someone comment on the ability for the Roller + JSPWiki pages
> > to be cached, which is a key performance and resource utilization
> > consideration?

> The integration between Roller and JSPWiki is lightweight and so you
> really have to consider them as separate applications.

> Roller has a highly configurable caching system and you can even
> plugin external caches like memcached if you want to, but I bet
> the out-of-the-box caching would work just fine.  Roller is proven
> at high-traffic sites like blogs.sun.com, JRoller and IBM devWorks

I suspect that the answer is yes, but is Roller compatible with mod_cache
and other front-end caches?

> so I don't think it's performance is going to be an issue on the
> little Roller project site.

Wasn't overly worried about it.  As you may recall, I suggested at ApacheCon
US 2005 that Roller look into a zone within which to host the code.

> JSPWiki uses OSCache for caching. I'm not sure it's been proven at
> high-traffic sites. Maybe Janne can comment on that?

Same question as above.  Is JSPWiki compatible with having mod_cache sitting
in front of it?   MoinMoin was not --- it did things that are termed
cache-busting --- but we fixed it.

	--- Noel

Re: Wiki -> ASF?

[Dave Johnson <sn...@gmail.com>]

On 6/6/06, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> can someone comment on the ability for the Roller + JSPWiki pages
> to be cached, which is a key performance and resource utilization
> consideration?

The integration between Roller and JSPWiki is lightweight and so you
really have to consider them as separate applications.

Roller has a highly configurable caching system and you can even
plugin external caches like memcached if you want to, but I bet the
out-of-the-box caching would work just fine. Roller is proven at
high-traffic sites like blogs.sun.com, JRoller and IBM devWorks so I
don't think it's performance is going to be an issue on the little
Roller project site.

JSPWiki uses OSCache for caching. I'm not sure it's been proven at
high-traffic sites. Maybe Janne can comment on that?

- Dave

Re: Wiki -> ASF?

[Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>]

On 6/6/06, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> Huh?  Context please?  We've installed several "shiny new toys".  The
> problems are getting people to maintain those shiny new toys, and finding
> ones that are not, in fact, toys incapable of standing up under heavy load,
> and not putting undue load onto shared hardware resources.

This is getting off topic, but here's some context:

I'm not sure where we stand with the infrastructure changes, but after
participating in the search committee, and listening to others talk
about our infrastructure, I'd favor a divide-and-conquer strategy.

Why does everything have to be in a single JIRA or Confluence
instance? Why can't it be more like hosting a project at someplace
like Kattare? Why can't it be up to each project to manage more of
their own infrastructure? Right now, helping out at all implies that
you will help with it all, and that can be a daunting obligation for a
volunteer with only a few precious hours to spend each week.

-Ted.

RE: Wiki -> ASF?

["Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>]

Ted Husted wrote:

> The underlying problem is that the infrastructure is shared by thirty
> projects, many of them high-profile, and there is a disinclination to
> add any more hardware than necessary.

That said, we've added considerable hardware resources, and brought several
servers online recently.

> The ASF is also a high-profile target for hackers (black and white hat),
> so people are naturally cautious about new tools.

Another, and a major, issue is that we get tons of traffic.  It took
tweaking for MoinMoin to run acceptably with our load.  and Confluence has
issues, but was brought up in a mode where it publishes static sites, rather
than being accessed dynamically.  Several projects, AIUI, are using it.

> With one exception: Hermes supports zones and some projects get their
> own zone where they can run their own stuff.

We've talked about a Roller zone.  But see above regarding performance
issues for public facing services.

> We are in the midst of transfering the bulk of infrastructure support
> to a third-party, which could bring about more change, but, like
> everything else, that initiative seems to be proceeding at a glacial
> pace.

I'm not sure what we're ready to announce, but this feels misleading to me.
On our end, there are some things for which we are waiting.

> Those of us who do write a lot of documentation realize the value of
> products like JSPWiki or Confluence, but it's difficult to explain
> that to someone who codes with emacs and dimisses anything else as a
> "shiny new toy".

Huh?  Context please?  We've installed several "shiny new toys".  The
problems are getting people to maintain those shiny new toys, and finding
ones that are not, in fact, toys incapable of standing up under heavy load,
and not putting undue load onto shared hardware resources.

> there is no rule that says we can't link to third-party resources.

True.  It just tends to piss people off.

Getting back to Dave's question, and addressing the actual infrastructure
concern, can someone comment on the ability for the Roller + JSPWiki pages
to be cached, which is a key performance and resource utilization
consideration?

	--- Noel

Re: Wiki -> ASF?

[Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>]

The underlying problem is that the infrastructure is shared by thirty
projects, many of them high-profile, and there is a disinclination to
add any more hardware than necessary. The ASF is also a high-profile
target for hackers (black and white hat), so people are naturally
cautious about new tools.

As a result, there is pressure from the infrastructure team for people
to use products that can be vettted and shared. As it stands, it's not
like SourceForge or Kattare, where everyone gets their own stomping
ground. There is a predilection for sharing infrastrucgtufre resources
in common and restricting access. I'm not saying that's a good thing,
but it is how it is.

With one exception: Hermes supports zones and some projects get their
own zone where they can run their own stuff. I just don't know if a
PPMC can get a zone, or if there are any available right now.

* http://www.apache.org/dev/solaris-zones.html

We are in the midst of transfering the bulk of infrastructure support
to a third-party, which could bring about more change, but, like
everything else, that initiative seems to be proceeding at a glacial
pace.

Another underlying problem is that most ASF committers and members are
grassroots engneers, who rarely write documentation. Those of us who
do write a lot of documentation realize the value of products like
JSPWiki or Confluence, but it's difficult to explain that to someone
who codes with emacs and dimisses anything else as a "shiny new toy".

Meanwhile, there is no rule that says we can't link to third-party
resources. We've had the iBATIS wiki offsite for over a year now.
There's no reason why we can't do the same with the Roller wiki, so
long as we make it plain that it is not an ASF asset.

-Ted


On 6/5/06, Dave Johnson <sn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't understand why we can't just replicate the setup at
> rollerweblogger.org: Roller + JSPWiki. I'm definitely not looking
> forward to converting the wiki from one wiki syntax to another or
> using a competing and non-free wiki/blog server like Confluence.
>
> I'm willing to support the Roller/JSPWiki combo just as I have been
> doing at rollerweblogger.org, but I'm not sure I'm willing to spend
> time converting content.
>
> Are you suggesting converting the entire wiki, or just doing all new
> work on the new wiki?
>
> - Dave
>
>
> On 6/5/06, Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 6/5/06, Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Can't see any reason not to do the wiki though. The ASF one is
> > > MoinMoin rather than JSPWiki.
> >
> > Personally, I find MoinMoin painful to use.  I use it when I
> > absolutely must, otherwise, I flee to Confluence.
> >
> > There's an ongoing effort to get a Confluence server setup at the ASF.
> > In the meantime, there's a server sponsored by Atlassian that we could
> > use, if that's what folks wanted to do.
> >
> > * http://opensource.atlassian.com/confluence/oss/dashboard.action
> >
> > -Ted.

Re: Wiki -> ASF?

[Dave Johnson <sn...@gmail.com>]

I don't understand why we can't just replicate the setup at
rollerweblogger.org: Roller + JSPWiki. I'm definitely not looking
forward to converting the wiki from one wiki syntax to another or
using a competing and non-free wiki/blog server like Confluence.

I'm willing to support the Roller/JSPWiki combo just as I have been
doing at rollerweblogger.org, but I'm not sure I'm willing to spend
time converting content.

Are you suggesting converting the entire wiki, or just doing all new
work on the new wiki?

- Dave


On 6/5/06, Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6/5/06, Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Can't see any reason not to do the wiki though. The ASF one is
> > MoinMoin rather than JSPWiki.
>
> Personally, I find MoinMoin painful to use.  I use it when I
> absolutely must, otherwise, I flee to Confluence.
>
> There's an ongoing effort to get a Confluence server setup at the ASF.
> In the meantime, there's a server sponsored by Atlassian that we could
> use, if that's what folks wanted to do.
>
> * http://opensource.atlassian.com/confluence/oss/dashboard.action
>
> -Ted.
>

Re: Wiki -> ASF?

[Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>]

On 6/5/06, Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Can't see any reason not to do the wiki though. The ASF one is
> MoinMoin rather than JSPWiki.

Personally, I find MoinMoin painful to use.  I use it when I
absolutely must, otherwise, I flee to Confluence.

There's an ongoing effort to get a Confluence server setup at the ASF.
In the meantime, there's a server sponsored by Atlassian that we could
use, if that's what folks wanted to do.

* http://opensource.atlassian.com/confluence/oss/dashboard.action

-Ted.