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Posted to general@jakarta.apache.org by Oliver Zeigermann <ol...@gmail.com> on 2006/07/29 18:20:10 UTC
State of Slide project
Hi, folks!
Recently, worries about the state of the Slide project came up in
private lists. It seems to be more or less unsupported and no
community seems to exist any more. Most posts to the lists remain
unanswered.
Additionally, I have heard voices who consider Slide redundant now
that Jackrabbit is a TLP.
While this is not the thread to find out what has happened to the
Slide project, we should think about what to do about it.
If there is no one who feels responsible for the project or is willing
to take responsibility we might put it into a dormant/unmaintained
mode. This might give possible new users a warning.
If new people came up who are ready to take the responsibility we
might revive it.
Additions? Opinions? Other voices? Am I completely wrong?
Cheers
Oliver
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Re: State of Slide project
Posted by Will Glass-Husain <wg...@forio.com>.
I like Henri's way of framing this.
Velocity is a good example of a mature project, for example. Has an
active user list and committers who are present, if little actual
day-to-day developer activity.
WILL
On 7/31/06, Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com> wrote:
>
> When no one argues with it being called dormant? :) (go circular logic).
>
> We've a bunch of meanings to cram into place. Obsolete is one term,
> sometimes due to JDK advances (ORO, Regexp, Commons-Logging) and sometimes
> because no one is really interested in the idea (ECS). The current status
> within Commons is that we've put things under Dormant if they hadn't had
> full releases. Inactive, yet released things have not been dealt with yet.
>
> Mature is very different - a mature project should still have an active
> user list and bugfixes being slowly made; at least someone should be
> listening. They don't however have any new development happening or likely
> to happen. For a mature project, I don't think we have to worry about
> labelling, we just need to make sure that people are still listening.
>
> Once the user mailing list is dead, that's when it's no longer mature and
> has become dead/dormant. You can argue about the dead/dormant labelling,
> but I think the easiest is to just go with Dormant for anything which is
> dead both in terms of user and dev lists. As time goes by we can refine
> that further.
>
> So....
>
> * Mature projects - no change. Just something to look out for; a dead dev
> list and active user list with no one listening to bug reports being the
> bad state of a mature project.
>
> * Dormant projects - dead user list, dead dev list. Something becomes
> dormant by calling a vote on general@ suggesting it be moved to dormant.
> Forward the vote thread to the dev/user lists as a notification.
>
> Hen
>
> On Sat, 29 Jul 2006, Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:
>
> > Hm,
> >
> > how do you consider a project "dormant"? Is Velocity "dormant"?
> >
> > What I want to avoid is, that mature projects which are exactly where
> > the committers want them to have and the "one release a year, just bug
> > fixes" are put in the same bucket as projects that might be dormant or
> > dead. Once a project is in that state, FUD is inevitable.
> >
> > We should make the effort to distinguish between stable projects/code
> > and dormant/dead code.
> >
> > Best regards
> > Henning
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 2006-07-29 at 13:25 -0400, Henri Yandell wrote:
> >>
> >> On Sat, 29 Jul 2006, Oliver Zeigermann wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi, folks!
> >>>
> >>> Recently, worries about the state of the Slide project came up in
> >>> private lists. It seems to be more or less unsupported and no
> >>> community seems to exist any more. Most posts to the lists remain
> >>> unanswered.
> >>>
> >>> Additionally, I have heard voices who consider Slide redundant now
> >>> that Jackrabbit is a TLP.
> >>>
> >>> While this is not the thread to find out what has happened to the
> >>> Slide project, we should think about what to do about it.
> >>>
> >>> If there is no one who feels responsible for the project or is willing
> >>> to take responsibility we might put it into a dormant/unmaintained
> >>> mode. This might give possible new users a warning.
> >>> If new people came up who are ready to take the responsibility we
> >>> might revive it.
> >>>
> >>> Additions? Opinions? Other voices? Am I completely wrong?
> >>
> >> Looking at mail-archives;
> >>
> >> Emails on the user list are 10% of what they were at the lists peak about
> >> 20 months ago. 40 odd so far this month, a dozen threads.
> >>
> >> Emails on the dev list are down to around 5% of what they were at its peak
> >> (20 months ago too). 30 emails this month. 4 threads from contributors,
> >> not committers and a bunch of automated wiki/issues/commit ones.
> >>
> >> How about creating a Dormant section on the LHS under Subprojects and
> >> kicking off a vote to put ORO, Regexp, Slide, Alexandria (I know, it's
> >> dead but simpler to put under Dormant for the moment), and ECS into it?
> >>
> >> The Incubator are going to be putting Agila into dormancy I think - so we
> >> can simply delete that link.
> >>
> >> Hen
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >>
> > --
> > Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen INTERMETA GmbH
> > hps@intermeta.de +49 9131 50 654 0 http://www.intermeta.de/
> >
> > RedHat Certified Engineer -- Jakarta Turbine Development
> > Linux, Java, perl, Solaris -- Consulting, Training, Engineering
> >
> > Social behaviour: Bavarians can be extremely egalitarian and folksy.
> > -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavaria
> > Most Franconians do not like to be called Bavarians.
> > -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franconia
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
--
Forio Business Simulations
Will Glass-Husain
wglass@forio.com
www.forio.com
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Re: State of Slide project
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
When no one argues with it being called dormant? :) (go circular logic).
We've a bunch of meanings to cram into place. Obsolete is one term,
sometimes due to JDK advances (ORO, Regexp, Commons-Logging) and sometimes
because no one is really interested in the idea (ECS). The current status
within Commons is that we've put things under Dormant if they hadn't had
full releases. Inactive, yet released things have not been dealt with yet.
Mature is very different - a mature project should still have an active
user list and bugfixes being slowly made; at least someone should be
listening. They don't however have any new development happening or likely
to happen. For a mature project, I don't think we have to worry about
labelling, we just need to make sure that people are still listening.
Once the user mailing list is dead, that's when it's no longer mature and
has become dead/dormant. You can argue about the dead/dormant labelling,
but I think the easiest is to just go with Dormant for anything which is
dead both in terms of user and dev lists. As time goes by we can refine
that further.
So....
* Mature projects - no change. Just something to look out for; a dead dev
list and active user list with no one listening to bug reports being the
bad state of a mature project.
* Dormant projects - dead user list, dead dev list. Something becomes
dormant by calling a vote on general@ suggesting it be moved to dormant.
Forward the vote thread to the dev/user lists as a notification.
Hen
On Sat, 29 Jul 2006, Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:
> Hm,
>
> how do you consider a project "dormant"? Is Velocity "dormant"?
>
> What I want to avoid is, that mature projects which are exactly where
> the committers want them to have and the "one release a year, just bug
> fixes" are put in the same bucket as projects that might be dormant or
> dead. Once a project is in that state, FUD is inevitable.
>
> We should make the effort to distinguish between stable projects/code
> and dormant/dead code.
>
> Best regards
> Henning
>
>
>
> On Sat, 2006-07-29 at 13:25 -0400, Henri Yandell wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 29 Jul 2006, Oliver Zeigermann wrote:
>>
>>> Hi, folks!
>>>
>>> Recently, worries about the state of the Slide project came up in
>>> private lists. It seems to be more or less unsupported and no
>>> community seems to exist any more. Most posts to the lists remain
>>> unanswered.
>>>
>>> Additionally, I have heard voices who consider Slide redundant now
>>> that Jackrabbit is a TLP.
>>>
>>> While this is not the thread to find out what has happened to the
>>> Slide project, we should think about what to do about it.
>>>
>>> If there is no one who feels responsible for the project or is willing
>>> to take responsibility we might put it into a dormant/unmaintained
>>> mode. This might give possible new users a warning.
>>> If new people came up who are ready to take the responsibility we
>>> might revive it.
>>>
>>> Additions? Opinions? Other voices? Am I completely wrong?
>>
>> Looking at mail-archives;
>>
>> Emails on the user list are 10% of what they were at the lists peak about
>> 20 months ago. 40 odd so far this month, a dozen threads.
>>
>> Emails on the dev list are down to around 5% of what they were at its peak
>> (20 months ago too). 30 emails this month. 4 threads from contributors,
>> not committers and a bunch of automated wiki/issues/commit ones.
>>
>> How about creating a Dormant section on the LHS under Subprojects and
>> kicking off a vote to put ORO, Regexp, Slide, Alexandria (I know, it's
>> dead but simpler to put under Dormant for the moment), and ECS into it?
>>
>> The Incubator are going to be putting Agila into dormancy I think - so we
>> can simply delete that link.
>>
>> Hen
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
> --
> Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen INTERMETA GmbH
> hps@intermeta.de +49 9131 50 654 0 http://www.intermeta.de/
>
> RedHat Certified Engineer -- Jakarta Turbine Development
> Linux, Java, perl, Solaris -- Consulting, Training, Engineering
>
> Social behaviour: Bavarians can be extremely egalitarian and folksy.
> -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavaria
> Most Franconians do not like to be called Bavarians.
> -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franconia
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
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Re: Re: Re: State of Slide project
Posted by Torsten Curdt <tc...@apache.org>.
> More worrying, it sounds like while ecs/oro/regexp have someone holding a
> janitor role and looking after things, Slide might not.
However I do think that there are quite some projects relying on it.
Maybe worth checking who is using slide (gump?)
cheers
--
Torsten
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Re: Re: State of Slide project
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Fri, 4 Aug 2006, Danny Angus wrote:
> On 29/07/06, J Aaron Farr <fa...@apache.org> wrote:
>> My point is, I think we need to come up with a solution that can scale
>> across Apache so that we can send a consistent message to our users.
>
> I thought that we already had one for dormant projects:
> notice on the project web page that it is no longer active,
> close down the dev list
> and monitor the user list.
Yeah, I started writing an email a few days ago after looking into the
slide, ecs, oro and regexp mailing lists and there's still an order of
magnitude more activity in slide than the others (and they still show
activity). So Slide's definitely not dormant under the 'alexandria'
definition.
More worrying, it sounds like while ecs/oro/regexp have someone holding a
janitor role and looking after things, Slide might not.
Hen
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Re: Re: State of Slide project
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@gmail.com>.
On 29/07/06, J Aaron Farr <fa...@apache.org> wrote:
> My point is, I think we need to come up with a solution that can scale
> across Apache so that we can send a consistent message to our users.
I thought that we already had one for dormant projects:
notice on the project web page that it is no longer active,
close down the dev list
and monitor the user list.
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Re: Re: State of Slide project
Posted by J Aaron Farr <fa...@apache.org>.
On 7/29/06, Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net> wrote:
> Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:
> > Hm,
> >
> > We should make the effort to distinguish between stable projects/code
> > and dormant/dead code.
>
> Totally agree.. Though we have to figure out if slide is dormant or mature.
> I cannot judge if it is one or the other. Based on the stuff I read on it (eg jackrabbit-dev), it
> seems more like dormant then mature though.
>
The issue of "dormant" and "stable" code is something we need to
figure out throughout Apache. For example, I believe Excalibur counts
as stable (if not dormant). Similar comments have been made about
several other projects.
Here are some of the issues about dormant/stable code:
We want to avoid the SourceForge syndrome of a lot of inactive
projects. I don't like the idea that a new user browsing Apache
websites can't tell which ones are active and which ones are not.
We need a pathway both into dormancy and out of dormancy. If a new
group of developers want to pick up old code and run with it, what's
the policy? Fork it? Put it through the incubator?
While we have archive.apache.org, that's a little harsh for some of
these projects. There still are users and there may be (as henning
pointed out) occasional releases. At the same time, do these projects
need the overhead of a full PMC and quarterly reporting to the board?
My point is, I think we need to come up with a solution that can scale
across Apache so that we can send a consistent message to our users.
--
jaaron
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Re: State of Slide project
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>.
Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:
> Hm,
>
> We should make the effort to distinguish between stable projects/code
> and dormant/dead code.
Totally agree.. Though we have to figure out if slide is dormant or mature.
I cannot judge if it is one or the other. Based on the stuff I read on it (eg jackrabbit-dev), it
seems more like dormant then mature though.
Mvgr,
Martin
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Re: State of Slide project
Posted by Henning Schmiedehausen <hp...@intermeta.de>.
Hm,
how do you consider a project "dormant"? Is Velocity "dormant"?
What I want to avoid is, that mature projects which are exactly where
the committers want them to have and the "one release a year, just bug
fixes" are put in the same bucket as projects that might be dormant or
dead. Once a project is in that state, FUD is inevitable.
We should make the effort to distinguish between stable projects/code
and dormant/dead code.
Best regards
Henning
On Sat, 2006-07-29 at 13:25 -0400, Henri Yandell wrote:
>
> On Sat, 29 Jul 2006, Oliver Zeigermann wrote:
>
> > Hi, folks!
> >
> > Recently, worries about the state of the Slide project came up in
> > private lists. It seems to be more or less unsupported and no
> > community seems to exist any more. Most posts to the lists remain
> > unanswered.
> >
> > Additionally, I have heard voices who consider Slide redundant now
> > that Jackrabbit is a TLP.
> >
> > While this is not the thread to find out what has happened to the
> > Slide project, we should think about what to do about it.
> >
> > If there is no one who feels responsible for the project or is willing
> > to take responsibility we might put it into a dormant/unmaintained
> > mode. This might give possible new users a warning.
> > If new people came up who are ready to take the responsibility we
> > might revive it.
> >
> > Additions? Opinions? Other voices? Am I completely wrong?
>
> Looking at mail-archives;
>
> Emails on the user list are 10% of what they were at the lists peak about
> 20 months ago. 40 odd so far this month, a dozen threads.
>
> Emails on the dev list are down to around 5% of what they were at its peak
> (20 months ago too). 30 emails this month. 4 threads from contributors,
> not committers and a bunch of automated wiki/issues/commit ones.
>
> How about creating a Dormant section on the LHS under Subprojects and
> kicking off a vote to put ORO, Regexp, Slide, Alexandria (I know, it's
> dead but simpler to put under Dormant for the moment), and ECS into it?
>
> The Incubator are going to be putting Agila into dormancy I think - so we
> can simply delete that link.
>
> Hen
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
--
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen INTERMETA GmbH
hps@intermeta.de +49 9131 50 654 0 http://www.intermeta.de/
RedHat Certified Engineer -- Jakarta Turbine Development
Linux, Java, perl, Solaris -- Consulting, Training, Engineering
Social behaviour: Bavarians can be extremely egalitarian and folksy.
-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavaria
Most Franconians do not like to be called Bavarians.
-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franconia
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Re: State of Slide project
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>.
Henri Yandell wrote:
>
> How about creating a Dormant section on the LHS under Subprojects and
> kicking off a vote to put ORO, Regexp, Slide, Alexandria (I know, it's
> dead but simpler to put under Dormant for the moment), and ECS into it?
We should just zap alexandria, or say just like other projects that it is ex jakarta and point it to
gump. Although maven saw it's first light there, the main development effort of maven happened in
the turbine project anyway. I would be really surprised if people are still doing something with the
"original" alexandria code. I tried to use it in 2000 and I think after that there wasn't much
improvement (aside from gump)
Another thing is we probably should close down some mailinglists of mature components and let
discussion move to general (as you already proposed in the past if I remember correctly and which is
already happening a bit).
>
> The Incubator are going to be putting Agila into dormancy I think - so
> we can simply delete that link.
Did we already request that to the incubator ? Since incubator is expecting us to request it, as we
are the sponsoring PMC.
Mvgr,
Martin
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Re: State of Slide project
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Sat, 29 Jul 2006, Oliver Zeigermann wrote:
> Hi, folks!
>
> Recently, worries about the state of the Slide project came up in
> private lists. It seems to be more or less unsupported and no
> community seems to exist any more. Most posts to the lists remain
> unanswered.
>
> Additionally, I have heard voices who consider Slide redundant now
> that Jackrabbit is a TLP.
>
> While this is not the thread to find out what has happened to the
> Slide project, we should think about what to do about it.
>
> If there is no one who feels responsible for the project or is willing
> to take responsibility we might put it into a dormant/unmaintained
> mode. This might give possible new users a warning.
> If new people came up who are ready to take the responsibility we
> might revive it.
>
> Additions? Opinions? Other voices? Am I completely wrong?
Looking at mail-archives;
Emails on the user list are 10% of what they were at the lists peak about
20 months ago. 40 odd so far this month, a dozen threads.
Emails on the dev list are down to around 5% of what they were at its peak
(20 months ago too). 30 emails this month. 4 threads from contributors,
not committers and a bunch of automated wiki/issues/commit ones.
How about creating a Dormant section on the LHS under Subprojects and
kicking off a vote to put ORO, Regexp, Slide, Alexandria (I know, it's
dead but simpler to put under Dormant for the moment), and ECS into it?
The Incubator are going to be putting Agila into dormancy I think - so we
can simply delete that link.
Hen
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