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Posted to legal-discuss@apache.org by Grant Ingersoll <gs...@apache.org> on 2008/02/22 13:07:55 UTC
When to Incubate and when to directly donate
Hi,
I am looking for some guidance on a couple of issues that aren't clear
to me when starting up a new project (and it probably applies to
existing ones too). Also, I am not sure whether this discussion is
best here or in Incubator, but I chose here b/c it seems it is more
about what constitutes a Software Grant, which goes beyond the
Incubator.
Currently, http://www.apache.org/licenses/ lays out making Software
Grants. From what I can tell, it seems like there are several
options people have when it comes to donating code:
1. Click the little JIRA box that says you license this code to the
ASF. This is how patches are handled
2. File an iCLA
3. Get your company to file a CCLA
2 & 3 may involve going through incubation.
What's not clear to me, is what is the threshold for donating code. A
few lines of code clearly falls in #1 above and that seems
reasonable. What about a working algorithm? For instance, we
recently started the Mahout project over at Lucene (there was no code
existing prior to the start of the project) and individuals are now
contributing code that implements various algorithms for machine
learning. They do this through process #1 just like any other project
that takes in new code, which seems fine to me.
However, a couple of other scenarios have come up. A company has
contacted me about donating some of their internal code. It has not
been released outside of the company. What is the process for that?
Finally, what is the process for code that has been licensed elsewhere
under a different license? The case for this one is a single file
containing an ANTLR grammar that describes a commonly used file format
in machine learning. The author has said he is willing to donate it
to the ASF/Mahout. Does this individual file have to go through
incubation since it was out in the wild under a different license? I
guess I am being a bit paranoid about it, but it seems like it is a
bit hard to establish, through the JIRA process that the person
donating some piece of "wild" code is really who they say they are and
thus they may not have the rights to donate it. But, then again, that
is completely true for anyone who has not filed a CLA and goes through
process #1.
Not sure if I am making myself clear, as the whole issue is fairly
muddy for me, so please ask me questions that might help me clarify
the issue. I also hope I am not opening a huge can o' worms!
Thanks,
Grant
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Re: When to Incubate and when to directly donate
Posted by Grant Ingersoll <gs...@apache.org>.
On Feb 22, 2008, at 11:58 AM, Henri Yandell wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 5:28 AM, Grant Ingersoll
> <gs...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Feb 22, 2008, at 7:49 AM, Sam Ruby wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 7:07 AM, Grant Ingersoll
>>> <gs...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I am looking for some guidance on a couple of issues that aren't
>>>> clear
>>>> to me when starting up a new project (and it probably applies to
>>>> existing ones too). Also, I am not sure whether this discussion is
>>>> best here or in Incubator, but I chose here b/c it seems it is more
>>>> about what constitutes a Software Grant, which goes beyond the
>>>> Incubator.
>>>
>>> New project? That's definitely incubator. But I think most of your
>>> questions have to do with IP clearance, which is covered here:
>>>
>>> http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/index.html
>>
>> Thanks, Sam, that definitely helps. Is there a legal definition of
>> "substantial contribution"? I'm guessing, in my former email, that
>> the donation from the company constitutes substantial, but I am not
>> sure when it is applied to the ANTLR grammar. Or is it a "know it
>> when you see it" definition?
>
> It's a:
>
> * "substantial"
> # "what's substantial?"
> * "If you're concerned that it might be substantial, then it's
> substantial"
>
I figured as much. That is fine with me. And I agree with being
conservative about it!
> ie) We should take a conservative view when people think they're
> approaching the grey area.
>
> As long as the author is the original and only author of the ANTLR
> code, then the fact it's released under a different license doesn't
> seem relevant.
Sounds good.
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only. Statements made on this list are not privileged, do not
constitute legal advice, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions
and policies of the ASF. See <http://www.apache.org/licenses/> for
official ASF policies and documents.
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Re: When to Incubate and when to directly donate
Posted by Santiago Gala <sa...@gmail.com>.
El vie, 22-02-2008 a las 08:58 -0800, Henri Yandell escribió:
>
> It's a:
>
> * "substantial"
> # "what's substantial?"
> * "If you're concerned that it might be substantial, then it's
> substantial"
>
I'd say that it is somehow a circular (and moving) definition: a
substantial contribution is the kind of contribution that, under common
"safe" interpretation of current law, *requires* a software grant.
"safe" meaning that the ASF tends to try to err on the safe side in case
of doubt.
So the definition is circular, and what breaks the circle is the current
legal framework. The definition is also a moving target, as the legal
framework and its interpretations drifts in time.
Obvious disclaimer: IANAL, from the peanuts gallery, etc.
Regards
--
Santiago Gala
http://memojo.com/~sgala/blog/
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only. Statements made on this list are not privileged, do not
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Re: When to Incubate and when to directly donate
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 5:28 AM, Grant Ingersoll <gs...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On Feb 22, 2008, at 7:49 AM, Sam Ruby wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 7:07 AM, Grant Ingersoll
> > <gs...@apache.org> wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I am looking for some guidance on a couple of issues that aren't
> >> clear
> >> to me when starting up a new project (and it probably applies to
> >> existing ones too). Also, I am not sure whether this discussion is
> >> best here or in Incubator, but I chose here b/c it seems it is more
> >> about what constitutes a Software Grant, which goes beyond the
> >> Incubator.
> >
> > New project? That's definitely incubator. But I think most of your
> > questions have to do with IP clearance, which is covered here:
> >
> > http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/index.html
>
> Thanks, Sam, that definitely helps. Is there a legal definition of
> "substantial contribution"? I'm guessing, in my former email, that
> the donation from the company constitutes substantial, but I am not
> sure when it is applied to the ANTLR grammar. Or is it a "know it
> when you see it" definition?
It's a:
* "substantial"
# "what's substantial?"
* "If you're concerned that it might be substantial, then it's substantial"
ie) We should take a conservative view when people think they're
approaching the grey area.
As long as the author is the original and only author of the ANTLR
code, then the fact it's released under a different license doesn't
seem relevant.
Hen
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only. Statements made on this list are not privileged, do not
constitute legal advice, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions
and policies of the ASF. See <http://www.apache.org/licenses/> for
official ASF policies and documents.
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Re: When to Incubate and when to directly donate
Posted by Grant Ingersoll <gs...@apache.org>.
On Feb 22, 2008, at 7:49 AM, Sam Ruby wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 7:07 AM, Grant Ingersoll
> <gs...@apache.org> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I am looking for some guidance on a couple of issues that aren't
>> clear
>> to me when starting up a new project (and it probably applies to
>> existing ones too). Also, I am not sure whether this discussion is
>> best here or in Incubator, but I chose here b/c it seems it is more
>> about what constitutes a Software Grant, which goes beyond the
>> Incubator.
>
> New project? That's definitely incubator. But I think most of your
> questions have to do with IP clearance, which is covered here:
>
> http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/index.html
Thanks, Sam, that definitely helps. Is there a legal definition of
"substantial contribution"? I'm guessing, in my former email, that
the donation from the company constitutes substantial, but I am not
sure when it is applied to the ANTLR grammar. Or is it a "know it
when you see it" definition?
-Grant
---------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCLAIMER: Discussions on this list are informational and educational
only. Statements made on this list are not privileged, do not
constitute legal advice, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions
and policies of the ASF. See <http://www.apache.org/licenses/> for
official ASF policies and documents.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: When to Incubate and when to directly donate
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 7:07 AM, Grant Ingersoll <gs...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I am looking for some guidance on a couple of issues that aren't clear
> to me when starting up a new project (and it probably applies to
> existing ones too). Also, I am not sure whether this discussion is
> best here or in Incubator, but I chose here b/c it seems it is more
> about what constitutes a Software Grant, which goes beyond the
> Incubator.
New project? That's definitely incubator. But I think most of your
questions have to do with IP clearance, which is covered here:
http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/index.html
And, no, it is not just you: the split between incubator and legal
affairs *IS* confusing, but mostly works.
> Currently, http://www.apache.org/licenses/ lays out making Software
> Grants. From what I can tell, it seems like there are several
> options people have when it comes to donating code:
>
> 1. Click the little JIRA box that says you license this code to the
> ASF. This is how patches are handled
> 2. File an iCLA
> 3. Get your company to file a CCLA
>
> 2 & 3 may involve going through incubation.
>
> What's not clear to me, is what is the threshold for donating code. A
> few lines of code clearly falls in #1 above and that seems
> reasonable. What about a working algorithm? For instance, we
> recently started the Mahout project over at Lucene (there was no code
> existing prior to the start of the project) and individuals are now
> contributing code that implements various algorithms for machine
> learning. They do this through process #1 just like any other project
> that takes in new code, which seems fine to me.
>
> However, a couple of other scenarios have come up. A company has
> contacted me about donating some of their internal code. It has not
> been released outside of the company. What is the process for that?
>
> Finally, what is the process for code that has been licensed elsewhere
> under a different license? The case for this one is a single file
> containing an ANTLR grammar that describes a commonly used file format
> in machine learning. The author has said he is willing to donate it
> to the ASF/Mahout. Does this individual file have to go through
> incubation since it was out in the wild under a different license? I
> guess I am being a bit paranoid about it, but it seems like it is a
> bit hard to establish, through the JIRA process that the person
> donating some piece of "wild" code is really who they say they are and
> thus they may not have the rights to donate it. But, then again, that
> is completely true for anyone who has not filed a CLA and goes through
> process #1.
>
> Not sure if I am making myself clear, as the whole issue is fairly
> muddy for me, so please ask me questions that might help me clarify
> the issue. I also hope I am not opening a huge can o' worms!
>
> Thanks,
> Grant
- Sam Ruby
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DISCLAIMER: Discussions on this list are informational and educational
only. Statements made on this list are not privileged, do not
constitute legal advice, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions
and policies of the ASF. See <http://www.apache.org/licenses/> for
official ASF policies and documents.
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