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Posted to dev@geronimo.apache.org by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org> on 2005/10/06 16:34:05 UTC
Fwd: Generic Logo Contest Guidelines
From the PRC for our logo contest.
Begin forwarded message:
> From: susan wu <su...@arctic.org>
> Date: October 3, 2005 3:42:40 PM EDT
> To: "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>
> Cc: prc@apache.org
> Subject: Generic Logo Contest Guidelines
>
>
>
> Can someone please publish this to the most appropriate place? Thanks.
>
> Apache Project Logo Contest Guidelines
>
> Look and Feel Guidelines:
> - Submissions must include a usable web version (PNG
> preferred) and
> a scalable vector, print quality version of the logo
> - The logo will be used to promote the specific Apache
> project for
> which it is created and should evoke the overall Apache Software
> Foundation
> brand [community-centric open source development, delivering the
> highest
> quality, standards compliant software]
> - The logo must incorporate the full project name, such as
> Apache
> Tomcat or Apache Geronimo
> - The logo should not incorporate images that are exclusively
> specific to Native American culture. However, symbols that have
> broad or
> multiple meanings are acceptable in evoking a Native American
> theme. Thus, a
> feather, which has many possible applications, would be
> appropriate, but a
> headdress would not be. - The logo should not incorporate
> any overt cultural or religious
> symbolism
> - The logo may incorporate other imagery, abstract symbols
> or a
> catchphrase, so long as the full project name is included somewhere
> in the
> logo. To this extent, the full project name can be displayed in a
> smaller
> font size than the main image, if there exists a main image
> - The logo must reflect the values of the community
> - The logo must adapt well to electronic and print media, to
> reproduction on small surfaces, and to use in color or in grayscale.
> - For tips on creating logos suitable for print media,
> please review this or any other web guides you might find helpful:
> http://www.sorrentomesa.com/education/techtips.html
> - If the logo incorporates non-standards fonts, you must
> be able to
> provide us with the font should your logo be selected
>
> Process & Legal Guidelines:
> - Acknowledgement to the winning entry will be provided on
> the
> appropriate project web site at http://
> [insertprojectname].apache.org - The Apache Software
> Foundation reserves the right to select no
> winning entry, if it deems that the submissions do not meet the
> needs of the
> organization
> - If the Logo is selected, the contributor must assign all
> rights to
> the selected images to the Apache Software Foundation
> - Logo must be free of any copyright or any other
> intellectual
> property claims
> - Logo must not incorporate or extend existing trademarks
> of other
> companies
>
>
> We recommend that every project post information relating to the
> submission,
> selection, and approval process:
> - Submissions will accepted by [wiki, email, upload to
> XYZ] until
> October 31, 2005
> - The final decision will be made by the Apache Geronimo
> PMC [and
> the Apache Public Relations Committee]. Input from the community
> will be
> welcomed in the form of wiki discussions.
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
Re: New Logo Contest Entries Posted
Posted by Matt Hogstrom <ma...@hogstrom.org>.
Excellent artwork. Thanks for your hard work and best wishes in the contest :)
I like Entry 21 a lot.
- Matt
Epiq Geronimo Team wrote:
> Hello,
>
> We have uploaded 5 new logo contest submissions that we hope will not be
> disqualified. We have removed any Native American images. We are
> excited to participate in the contest and welcome your feedback as part
> of collaborative process on the new entries:
>
> Entry 18
> http://www.epiqtech.com/corp/products/technology/opensource/apachegeronimo5.htm
>
>
> Entry 19
> http://www.epiqtech.com/corp/products/technology/opensource/apachegeronimo4.htm
>
>
> Entry 20
> http://www.epiqtech.com/corp/products/technology/opensource/apachegeronimo2.htm
>
>
> Entry 21
> http://www.epiqtech.com/corp/products/technology/opensource/apachegeronimo.htm
>
>
> Entry 22
> http://www.epiqtech.com/corp/products/technology/opensource/apachegeronimo3.htm
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
>
> The Epiq Team
>
>
>
New Logo Contest Entries Posted
Posted by Epiq Geronimo Team <ge...@epiqtech.com>.
Hello,
We have uploaded 5 new logo contest submissions that we hope will not be
disqualified. We have removed any Native American images. We are
excited to participate in the contest and welcome your feedback as part
of collaborative process on the new entries:
Entry 18
http://www.epiqtech.com/corp/products/technology/opensource/apachegeronimo5.htm
Entry 19
http://www.epiqtech.com/corp/products/technology/opensource/apachegeronimo4.htm
Entry 20
http://www.epiqtech.com/corp/products/technology/opensource/apachegeronimo2.htm
Entry 21
http://www.epiqtech.com/corp/products/technology/opensource/apachegeronimo.htm
Entry 22
http://www.epiqtech.com/corp/products/technology/opensource/apachegeronimo3.htm
Best Regards,
The Epiq Team
Re: Generic Logo Contest Guidelines
Posted by anita kulshreshtha <a_...@yahoo.com>.
--- J <ne...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think one needs to understand the principle of
> design. To look at the
> issue subjectively and not emotionally. Once
> emotions are attached then is
> no longer a design and more a personal issue.
>
> All I was trying to do here is to educate this
> community to look at the
> logo's subjectively and not with emotions.
>
> My intentions are not to offend rather to educate.
>
> I am sorry if educating is seen as offensive.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 10/9/05, Jeff Genender <jg...@savoirtech.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > J wrote:
> > > Now whether I have or have not created a logo
> for this particular
> > > contest is irrevelant. I am just concerned about
> reading about this push
> > > if you all will for 2-3 logo's that quite
> honestly are not good and well
> > > just seem like they had no thought behind them.
> >
> > This seems awfully opinionated and is a bit
> condescending to the
> > community. Are you saying the community has rotten
> taste and doesn't
> > pick logos that have "thought" behind them? I
> personally find this
> > statement offensive.
> >
> > >
> > > A logo is a statement. A logo is an item with
> thought. And a handful of
> > > these logo's look more like an in the box
> concept that just steroetypes
> > > Native American's then actually helps the apache
> project out.
> >
> > What do you call the Apache feather then? I am
> sorry, but that feather
> > is obviously attached to a form of native american
> image. Do you feel
> > this way about the current Apache logo?
> >
> > >
> > > So the main question is this will there be a
> real vote with real time
> > > opporutnity to see results for all the logo's or
> just wait until #11
> > > gets picked because well it sucks, not well
> thought out and a good
> > > number of you like it for some unknown, ungodly
> reason?
I see a lot of emotions here!
Thanks
Anita
> >
> > Is there a reason this type of verbage needs to be
> used? Can we engage
> > without showing disrespect? IMHO, I think we don't
> need to rate
> > people's taste factor. Again, I find this
> particularly offensive.
> >
>
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Re: Generic Logo Contest Guidelines
Posted by J <ne...@gmail.com>.
I think one needs to understand the principle of design. To look at the
issue subjectively and not emotionally. Once emotions are attached then is
no longer a design and more a personal issue.
All I was trying to do here is to educate this community to look at the
logo's subjectively and not with emotions.
My intentions are not to offend rather to educate.
I am sorry if educating is seen as offensive.
On 10/9/05, Jeff Genender <jg...@savoirtech.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> J wrote:
> > Now whether I have or have not created a logo for this particular
> > contest is irrevelant. I am just concerned about reading about this push
> > if you all will for 2-3 logo's that quite honestly are not good and well
> > just seem like they had no thought behind them.
>
> This seems awfully opinionated and is a bit condescending to the
> community. Are you saying the community has rotten taste and doesn't
> pick logos that have "thought" behind them? I personally find this
> statement offensive.
>
> >
> > A logo is a statement. A logo is an item with thought. And a handful of
> > these logo's look more like an in the box concept that just steroetypes
> > Native American's then actually helps the apache project out.
>
> What do you call the Apache feather then? I am sorry, but that feather
> is obviously attached to a form of native american image. Do you feel
> this way about the current Apache logo?
>
> >
> > So the main question is this will there be a real vote with real time
> > opporutnity to see results for all the logo's or just wait until #11
> > gets picked because well it sucks, not well thought out and a good
> > number of you like it for some unknown, ungodly reason?
>
> Is there a reason this type of verbage needs to be used? Can we engage
> without showing disrespect? IMHO, I think we don't need to rate
> people's taste factor. Again, I find this particularly offensive.
>
Re: Generic Logo Contest Guidelines
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
The PRC has made guidelines. The guidelines seem to be reasonable.
You haven't objected to any specific aspect, but just the fact that
there are guidelines. If you don't think they are reasonable, lets
be constructive and offer feedback. I'm happy to help there.
If there are questions about specific logos, lets ask the PRC. Logo
#11 may or may not be fine. Lets ask. I'm happy to help there.
The point of me asking the PRC for guidelines was to enable us to
make a decision about something that many people in the ASF community
are sensitive about using an objective set of rules established by
the ASF, rather than risk bad feelings based the spectrum of opinions
that individuals have on naming and branding. In many people's
opinion, we have one strike against us because of the name we chose.
Lets not get another.
geir
On Oct 9, 2005, at 11:55 AM, Dain Sundstrom wrote:
> On Oct 9, 2005, at 7:11 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
>
>> On Oct 8, 2005, at 1:59 PM, Dain Sundstrom wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 8, 2005, at 8:47 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Lets cut to the root of it - Is your problem with having to work
>>>> within the guidelines from the PRC, or is there some particular
>>>> problem with the guidelines themselves? I'm sure that if it's
>>>> the latter, any reasonable suggestion, change or addition will
>>>> be welcomed.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Well cutting to the chase, I do have a problem with the
>>> guidelines. Everyone has an opinion on the logo, but the opinion
>>> of the folks involved in the PRC seem to cary veto power. It is
>>> clear that the PRC is simply trying to avoid potential future
>>> problems, and I believe that it is important for the members of
>>> the Geronimo community to hear the concerns of the PRC. I expect
>>> the Geronimo community should take this into account when
>>> selecting a logo, but I don't think that anyone other then the
>>> Geronimo community should be choosing the logo.
>>>
>>> The big problem here is the most popular logo is #11, and there
>>> are a few outsiders that don't like this. Instead of them coming
>>> to the community and trying to convince the community that this
>>> is a bad choice, the PRC simply issues a mandate, and that grates
>>> on me. I say, if you want to be involved in the Geronimo logo
>>> process come here and discuss it, otherwise keep your opinions to
>>> your self.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> First, don't forget that this is an Apache project, and therefore
>> we have to abide by Apache Foundation guidelines for things.
>>
>
> In every email I have sent I have made this point. If this is an
> official "Apache Foundation guideline" then we must follow it, or
> appeal it to the board. I am questioning if this is an official
> "Apache Foundation guideline".
>
>
>> Second, I think you are leaping to conclusions. If there is a
>> logo that we feel may not satisfy the guidelines but feel is ok,
>> we should probably just ask the PRC.
>>
>
> That statement implies that the PRC has jurisdiction over logo
> selection, and I am questioning that.
>
>
>>> If this is an official mandate of the board then we must accept
>>> it, but I'm not happy about it, which is why I feel it is
>>> critical to determine if this is a mandate of the board. Did the
>>> board give the PRC rule making authority over all imagery at Apache?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>
> Cool. That was all I was asking. Now for a bit of Regan "trust
> but verify". Where can I find the Board resolution stating this?
>
>
>>> Did the board specifically direct the PRC to create logo
>>> guidelines?
>>>
>>
>> No, but that's utterly irrelevant. I asked the PRC to create
>> guidelines, because our name selection was and is controversial,
>> and there's absolutely no reason to further antagonize members of
>> the Apache community with a logo decision along the same lines.
>> Further, our name and imagery will be used far and wide in the
>> industry, and very prominently, and I thought that was another
>> excellent reason.
>>
>
> Assuming the above is true, I agree the question was irrelevant.
> If you did have concerns, why didn't you come to the community first?
>
>
>>> Has the Board officially accepted these guidelines or is this
>>> still a rough draft?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Again, utterly irrelevant, as the board has officially delegated
>> responsibility for branding and imaging to the PRC, and doesn't
>> need to review every decision. If there are issues with the
>> guidelines, the PRC will welcome our feedback. If we're not
>> satisfied, we can appeal to the board, but I'm not sure what we'd
>> be trying to achieve at that point.
>>
>
> I think it is completely relevant. Given that this policy effects
> the entire ASF and changes the way logos has been done up to this
> point, if this is just a draft, I would propose that we wait for
> the final form, because my guess is it will tick off some powerful
> Apache members, and be changed.
>
>
>>> I personally will be more comfortable if we knew exactly where
>>> these guidelines stand within Apache.
>>>
>>
>> I hope it's clear now.
>>
>
> It is now. I was my understanding that Apache tended favor putting
> decisions into "Project Rights" and not "Foundation Rights", but I
> guess as any organization ages there is a tendency to centralize
> more and more.
>
>
>>> BTW, I personally think #11 is tacky, but not offensive, and am
>>> fine to have it in the contest, but personally #9 to win.
>>>
>>
>> If we think that we should go to the PRC about #11 and ask, lets
>> do that. Otherwise, lets move on.
>>
>
> Good idea. Why don't we have the logo contest will all logos? I
> think everyone in the community gets the seriousness of this issue,
> and will take it into account when voting. If the winner is not
> approved by the PRC, then we can take it to the board.
>
> -dain
>
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
Re: Generic Logo Contest Guidelines
Posted by Jeff Genender <jg...@savoirtech.com>.
J wrote:
> Now whether I have or have not created a logo for this particular
> contest is irrevelant. I am just concerned about reading about this push
> if you all will for 2-3 logo's that quite honestly are not good and well
> just seem like they had no thought behind them.
This seems awfully opinionated and is a bit condescending to the
community. Are you saying the community has rotten taste and doesn't
pick logos that have "thought" behind them? I personally find this
statement offensive.
>
> A logo is a statement. A logo is an item with thought. And a handful of
> these logo's look more like an in the box concept that just steroetypes
> Native American's then actually helps the apache project out.
What do you call the Apache feather then? I am sorry, but that feather
is obviously attached to a form of native american image. Do you feel
this way about the current Apache logo?
>
> So the main question is this will there be a real vote with real time
> opporutnity to see results for all the logo's or just wait until #11
> gets picked because well it sucks, not well thought out and a good
> number of you like it for some unknown, ungodly reason?
Is there a reason this type of verbage needs to be used? Can we engage
without showing disrespect? IMHO, I think we don't need to rate
people's taste factor. Again, I find this particularly offensive.
Re: Generic Logo Contest Guidelines
Posted by J <ne...@gmail.com>.
Just a question based on all the comments on the logo contest to date. Is
voting set-up to be done where as all the logo's have a fighting chance or
just an opportunity where the contest comes down to the 2 or 3 logo's that
have had the controversy over the past couple of weeks.
In spending the past year learning about what all of you have been doing,
the project and time well spent on working toward a greater common goal I am
concerned about reading petty arguments over common branding procedures in
every major company in this world. And these discussions on some of these
specific logo's are maddenng to someone like myself actually spending their
working day, getting paid to develop memorable and unique solutions to
logo's and other various design issues.
Now whether I have or have not created a logo for this particular contest is
irrevelant. I am just concerned about reading about this push if you all
will for 2-3 logo's that quite honestly are not good and well just seem like
they had no thought behind them.
A logo is a statement. A logo is an item with thought. And a handful of
these logo's look more like an in the box concept that just steroetypes
Native American's then actually helps the apache project out.
So the main question is this will there be a real vote with real time
opporutnity to see results for all the logo's or just wait until #11 gets
picked because well it sucks, not well thought out and a good number of you
like it for some unknown, ungodly reason?
On 10/9/05, Geir Magnusson Jr. <ge...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>
> On Oct 9, 2005, at 1:34 PM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
>
> > On 10/9/2005 10:03 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> >
> >
> >>
> >> On Oct 9, 2005, at 12:54 PM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> I see Dain's point and I think that we do need to clarify if the
> >>> PRC's guidelines are suggestions or hard rules that they have
> >>> been empowered by the corporation to enforce. We need to
> >>> clarify this because it seems that the community really likes
> >>> the contentious logo; they are aware of other's opinions and
> >>> still they cling to their choice.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> that's fine. Then we run it by the PRC and if they like it, it's
> >> fine.
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> If these guidelines are suggestions then let's move on and
> >>> install our new, butt ugly, logo. ;) The community mandate is
> >>> clear. If these guidelines are hard rules that the PRC has been
> >>> empowered by the corporation to enforce, then more discussion
> >>> needs to be take place.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> This is why I suggested we get the guidelines from the PRC,
> >> winnow down the set, and let the community freely decide then.
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> We are at a fork in the road and we, the community, need to
> >>> clearly understand what the situation is.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> Where is the question? Are we debating :
> >>
> >> a) if the PRC has the right to make such guidelines?
> >>
> >> b) if they are guidelines or rules?
> >>
> >> c) if we are choosing to ignore the guidelines for the logo that
> >> people are voting for?
> >>
> >> d) if it's smart for us to ignore the spirit of the idea behind
> >> the guidelines?
> >>
> >> I think that we are behind the count here, so to speak, and would
> >> be well served by being extra careful.
> >>
> >
> >
> > We are not debating. I and others would like to know the answers
> > to A and B.
>
> A: What exactly constitutes proof here?
>
> As a director last year, I voted for the resolution here :
>
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/records/minutes/2004/
> board_minutes_2004_06_23.txt
>
> which, in part, says :
>
> RESOLVED, that the Public Relations Committee be and hereby is
> responsible for organization and oversight of efforts to handle
> public relations on behalf of The Apache Software Foundation,
> including trademark licensing and other issues regarding
> management of the Apache brand and raising of funds
>
> Now, we can argue about the finer points of if "management of the
> apache brand" implies the whole suite, such as project branding, or
> just the ASF brand in isolation, but I voted for it at the time with
> the understanding that projects like Apache Geronimo are part of the
> ASF, and therefore the PRC has an oversight role.
>
>
> > IMHO, it is not smart for us to ignore the spirit of the idea
> > behind the guidelines but, it is always best for the community to
> > make an informed decision.
> >
> > Are you saying, "let's run the logo that the community picks by the
> > PRC and if they like it as well, then why dig up A and B which is a
> > contentious thing to do"? Sounds good to me. I would prefer to
> > have a non-procedural consensus then to add/analyze more process
> > and hierarchy.
> >
>
> I would too, but I did this to avoid us getting kicked around again
> for making choice that the foundation, or parts of it, found not in
> the ASFs better interest. Now we are aware of the (rules |
> guidelines | heavy hand of the man), we're all professional adults
> with a self-interest in finding a logo that is memorable, unique and
> non-controversial, and I'm sure that we'll do the right thing. And
> if we don't, we can't claim ignorance. And if someone doesn't like
> it, it's a larger discussion with the PRC.
>
> > My two cents: I think that we should follow the PRC's guidelines as
> > if they were hard rules for two reasons. First, is that they seem
> > to me to be good and reasonable guidelines. Second, is that it is
> > their role to come up with corporate/community wide guidelines; I
> > think that we should respect that.
> >
>
> Great.
>
> Thanks
>
> geir
>
> >
> > Regards,
> > Alan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
> geirm@apache.org
>
>
>
Re: Generic Logo Contest Guidelines
Posted by Dain Sundstrom <da...@iq80.com>.
The problem was that you didn't sound confident that it was fact, so
I questioned it. In the past, I have found that fact quickly becomes
opinion when someone is pressed for proof, and considering the
gravity of this fact, I felt it was worth pushing for proof.
-dain
On Oct 9, 2005, at 1:28 PM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> Next time, maybe consider trusting me.
>
> geir
>
> On Oct 9, 2005, at 4:13 PM, Dain Sundstrom wrote:
>
>
>> On Oct 9, 2005, at 12:30 PM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> As a director last year, I voted for the resolution here :
>>>
>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/records/minutes/2004/
>>> board_minutes_2004_06_23.txt
>>>
>>> which, in part, says :
>>>
>>> RESOLVED, that the Public Relations Committee be and
>>> hereby is
>>> responsible for organization and oversight of efforts to
>>> handle
>>> public relations on behalf of The Apache Software Foundation,
>>> including trademark licensing and other issues regarding
>>> management of the Apache brand and raising of funds
>>>
>>>
>>
>> This is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks.
>>
>> -dain
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
> geirm@apache.org
>
>
Re: Generic Logo Contest Guidelines
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
Next time, maybe consider trusting me.
geir
On Oct 9, 2005, at 4:13 PM, Dain Sundstrom wrote:
> On Oct 9, 2005, at 12:30 PM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
>
>> As a director last year, I voted for the resolution here :
>>
>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/records/minutes/2004/
>> board_minutes_2004_06_23.txt
>>
>> which, in part, says :
>>
>> RESOLVED, that the Public Relations Committee be and hereby is
>> responsible for organization and oversight of efforts to
>> handle
>> public relations on behalf of The Apache Software Foundation,
>> including trademark licensing and other issues regarding
>> management of the Apache brand and raising of funds
>>
>
> This is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks.
>
> -dain
>
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
Re: Generic Logo Contest Guidelines
Posted by Dain Sundstrom <da...@iq80.com>.
On Oct 9, 2005, at 12:30 PM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> As a director last year, I voted for the resolution here :
>
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/records/minutes/2004/
> board_minutes_2004_06_23.txt
>
> which, in part, says :
>
> RESOLVED, that the Public Relations Committee be and hereby is
> responsible for organization and oversight of efforts to handle
> public relations on behalf of The Apache Software Foundation,
> including trademark licensing and other issues regarding
> management of the Apache brand and raising of funds
This is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks.
-dain
Re: Generic Logo Contest Guidelines
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
On Oct 9, 2005, at 1:34 PM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
> On 10/9/2005 10:03 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
>
>>
>> On Oct 9, 2005, at 12:54 PM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I see Dain's point and I think that we do need to clarify if the
>>> PRC's guidelines are suggestions or hard rules that they have
>>> been empowered by the corporation to enforce. We need to
>>> clarify this because it seems that the community really likes
>>> the contentious logo; they are aware of other's opinions and
>>> still they cling to their choice.
>>>
>>
>>
>> that's fine. Then we run it by the PRC and if they like it, it's
>> fine.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> If these guidelines are suggestions then let's move on and
>>> install our new, butt ugly, logo. ;) The community mandate is
>>> clear. If these guidelines are hard rules that the PRC has been
>>> empowered by the corporation to enforce, then more discussion
>>> needs to be take place.
>>>
>>
>>
>> This is why I suggested we get the guidelines from the PRC,
>> winnow down the set, and let the community freely decide then.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> We are at a fork in the road and we, the community, need to
>>> clearly understand what the situation is.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Where is the question? Are we debating :
>>
>> a) if the PRC has the right to make such guidelines?
>>
>> b) if they are guidelines or rules?
>>
>> c) if we are choosing to ignore the guidelines for the logo that
>> people are voting for?
>>
>> d) if it's smart for us to ignore the spirit of the idea behind
>> the guidelines?
>>
>> I think that we are behind the count here, so to speak, and would
>> be well served by being extra careful.
>>
>
>
> We are not debating. I and others would like to know the answers
> to A and B.
A: What exactly constitutes proof here?
As a director last year, I voted for the resolution here :
http://www.apache.org/foundation/records/minutes/2004/
board_minutes_2004_06_23.txt
which, in part, says :
RESOLVED, that the Public Relations Committee be and hereby is
responsible for organization and oversight of efforts to handle
public relations on behalf of The Apache Software Foundation,
including trademark licensing and other issues regarding
management of the Apache brand and raising of funds
Now, we can argue about the finer points of if "management of the
apache brand" implies the whole suite, such as project branding, or
just the ASF brand in isolation, but I voted for it at the time with
the understanding that projects like Apache Geronimo are part of the
ASF, and therefore the PRC has an oversight role.
> IMHO, it is not smart for us to ignore the spirit of the idea
> behind the guidelines but, it is always best for the community to
> make an informed decision.
>
> Are you saying, "let's run the logo that the community picks by the
> PRC and if they like it as well, then why dig up A and B which is a
> contentious thing to do"? Sounds good to me. I would prefer to
> have a non-procedural consensus then to add/analyze more process
> and hierarchy.
>
I would too, but I did this to avoid us getting kicked around again
for making choice that the foundation, or parts of it, found not in
the ASFs better interest. Now we are aware of the (rules |
guidelines | heavy hand of the man), we're all professional adults
with a self-interest in finding a logo that is memorable, unique and
non-controversial, and I'm sure that we'll do the right thing. And
if we don't, we can't claim ignorance. And if someone doesn't like
it, it's a larger discussion with the PRC.
> My two cents: I think that we should follow the PRC's guidelines as
> if they were hard rules for two reasons. First, is that they seem
> to me to be good and reasonable guidelines. Second, is that it is
> their role to come up with corporate/community wide guidelines; I
> think that we should respect that.
>
Great.
Thanks
geir
>
> Regards,
> Alan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
Re: Generic Logo Contest Guidelines
Posted by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com>.
On 10/9/2005 10:03 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
> On Oct 9, 2005, at 12:54 PM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
>
>> I see Dain's point and I think that we do need to clarify if the
>> PRC's guidelines are suggestions or hard rules that they have been
>> empowered by the corporation to enforce. We need to clarify this
>> because it seems that the community really likes the contentious
>> logo; they are aware of other's opinions and still they cling to
>> their choice.
>
>
> that's fine. Then we run it by the PRC and if they like it, it's fine.
>
>>
>> If these guidelines are suggestions then let's move on and install
>> our new, butt ugly, logo. ;) The community mandate is clear. If
>> these guidelines are hard rules that the PRC has been empowered by
>> the corporation to enforce, then more discussion needs to be take
>> place.
>
>
> This is why I suggested we get the guidelines from the PRC, winnow
> down the set, and let the community freely decide then.
>
>>
>> We are at a fork in the road and we, the community, need to clearly
>> understand what the situation is.
>
>
> Where is the question? Are we debating :
>
> a) if the PRC has the right to make such guidelines?
>
> b) if they are guidelines or rules?
>
> c) if we are choosing to ignore the guidelines for the logo that
> people are voting for?
>
> d) if it's smart for us to ignore the spirit of the idea behind the
> guidelines?
>
> I think that we are behind the count here, so to speak, and would be
> well served by being extra careful.
We are not debating. I and others would like to know the answers to A
and B. IMHO, it is not smart for us to ignore the spirit of the idea
behind the guidelines but, it is always best for the community to make
an informed decision.
Are you saying, "let's run the logo that the community picks by the PRC
and if they like it as well, then why dig up A and B which is a
contentious thing to do"? Sounds good to me. I would prefer to have a
non-procedural consensus then to add/analyze more process and hierarchy.
My two cents: I think that we should follow the PRC's guidelines as if
they were hard rules for two reasons. First, is that they seem to me to
be good and reasonable guidelines. Second, is that it is their role to
come up with corporate/community wide guidelines; I think that we should
respect that.
Regards,
Alan
Re: Generic Logo Contest Guidelines
Posted by Dain Sundstrom <da...@iq80.com>.
On Oct 9, 2005, at 10:03 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> On Oct 9, 2005, at 12:54 PM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
>
>> I see Dain's point and I think that we do need to clarify if the
>> PRC's guidelines are suggestions or hard rules that they have been
>> empowered by the corporation to enforce. We need to clarify this
>> because it seems that the community really likes the contentious
>> logo; they are aware of other's opinions and still they cling to
>> their choice.
>
> that's fine. Then we run it by the PRC and if they like it, it's
> fine.
Geir, I think you have missed the point. Asking the PRC for
approval, sets a precedent that they have approval power (i.e., it is
a self fulfilling prophecy). I think we should establish that fact
first.
-dain
Re: Generic Logo Contest Guidelines
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
On Oct 9, 2005, at 12:54 PM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
> I see Dain's point and I think that we do need to clarify if the
> PRC's guidelines are suggestions or hard rules that they have been
> empowered by the corporation to enforce. We need to clarify this
> because it seems that the community really likes the contentious
> logo; they are aware of other's opinions and still they cling to
> their choice.
that's fine. Then we run it by the PRC and if they like it, it's fine.
>
> If these guidelines are suggestions then let's move on and install
> our new, butt ugly, logo. ;) The community mandate is clear. If
> these guidelines are hard rules that the PRC has been empowered by
> the corporation to enforce, then more discussion needs to be take
> place.
This is why I suggested we get the guidelines from the PRC, winnow
down the set, and let the community freely decide then.
>
> We are at a fork in the road and we, the community, need to clearly
> understand what the situation is.
Where is the question? Are we debating :
a) if the PRC has the right to make such guidelines?
b) if they are guidelines or rules?
c) if we are choosing to ignore the guidelines for the logo that
people are voting for?
d) if it's smart for us to ignore the spirit of the idea behind the
guidelines?
I think that we are behind the count here, so to speak, and would be
well served by being extra careful.
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
Re: Generic Logo Contest Guidelines
Posted by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com>.
I see Dain's point and I think that we do need to clarify if the PRC's
guidelines are suggestions or hard rules that they have been empowered
by the corporation to enforce. We need to clarify this because it seems
that the community really likes the contentious logo; they are aware of
other's opinions and still they cling to their choice.
If these guidelines are suggestions then let's move on and install our
new, butt ugly, logo. ;) The community mandate is clear. If these
guidelines are hard rules that the PRC has been empowered by the
corporation to enforce, then more discussion needs to be take place.
We are at a fork in the road and we, the community, need to clearly
understand what the situation is.
Regards,
Alan
Re: Generic Logo Contest Guidelines
Posted by Dain Sundstrom <da...@iq80.com>.
On Oct 9, 2005, at 7:11 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> On Oct 8, 2005, at 1:59 PM, Dain Sundstrom wrote:
>
>> On Oct 8, 2005, at 8:47 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>>
>>> Lets cut to the root of it - Is your problem with having to work
>>> within the guidelines from the PRC, or is there some particular
>>> problem with the guidelines themselves? I'm sure that if it's
>>> the latter, any reasonable suggestion, change or addition will be
>>> welcomed.
>>
>> Well cutting to the chase, I do have a problem with the
>> guidelines. Everyone has an opinion on the logo, but the opinion
>> of the folks involved in the PRC seem to cary veto power. It is
>> clear that the PRC is simply trying to avoid potential future
>> problems, and I believe that it is important for the members of
>> the Geronimo community to hear the concerns of the PRC. I expect
>> the Geronimo community should take this into account when
>> selecting a logo, but I don't think that anyone other then the
>> Geronimo community should be choosing the logo.
>>
>> The big problem here is the most popular logo is #11, and there
>> are a few outsiders that don't like this. Instead of them coming
>> to the community and trying to convince the community that this is
>> a bad choice, the PRC simply issues a mandate, and that grates on
>> me. I say, if you want to be involved in the Geronimo logo
>> process come here and discuss it, otherwise keep your opinions to
>> your self.
>>
>
> First, don't forget that this is an Apache project, and therefore
> we have to abide by Apache Foundation guidelines for things.
In every email I have sent I have made this point. If this is an
official "Apache Foundation guideline" then we must follow it, or
appeal it to the board. I am questioning if this is an official
"Apache Foundation guideline".
> Second, I think you are leaping to conclusions. If there is a logo
> that we feel may not satisfy the guidelines but feel is ok, we
> should probably just ask the PRC.
That statement implies that the PRC has jurisdiction over logo
selection, and I am questioning that.
>> If this is an official mandate of the board then we must accept
>> it, but I'm not happy about it, which is why I feel it is critical
>> to determine if this is a mandate of the board. Did the board
>> give the PRC rule making authority over all imagery at Apache?
>>
>
> Yes.
Cool. That was all I was asking. Now for a bit of Regan "trust but
verify". Where can I find the Board resolution stating this?
>> Did the board specifically direct the PRC to create logo
>> guidelines?
>
> No, but that's utterly irrelevant. I asked the PRC to create
> guidelines, because our name selection was and is controversial,
> and there's absolutely no reason to further antagonize members of
> the Apache community with a logo decision along the same lines.
> Further, our name and imagery will be used far and wide in the
> industry, and very prominently, and I thought that was another
> excellent reason.
Assuming the above is true, I agree the question was irrelevant. If
you did have concerns, why didn't you come to the community first?
>> Has the Board officially accepted these guidelines or is this
>> still a rough draft?
>>
>
> Again, utterly irrelevant, as the board has officially delegated
> responsibility for branding and imaging to the PRC, and doesn't
> need to review every decision. If there are issues with the
> guidelines, the PRC will welcome our feedback. If we're not
> satisfied, we can appeal to the board, but I'm not sure what we'd
> be trying to achieve at that point.
I think it is completely relevant. Given that this policy effects
the entire ASF and changes the way logos has been done up to this
point, if this is just a draft, I would propose that we wait for the
final form, because my guess is it will tick off some powerful Apache
members, and be changed.
>> I personally will be more comfortable if we knew exactly where
>> these guidelines stand within Apache.
>
> I hope it's clear now.
It is now. I was my understanding that Apache tended favor putting
decisions into "Project Rights" and not "Foundation Rights", but I
guess as any organization ages there is a tendency to centralize more
and more.
>> BTW, I personally think #11 is tacky, but not offensive, and am
>> fine to have it in the contest, but personally #9 to win.
>
> If we think that we should go to the PRC about #11 and ask, lets do
> that. Otherwise, lets move on.
Good idea. Why don't we have the logo contest will all logos? I
think everyone in the community gets the seriousness of this issue,
and will take it into account when voting. If the winner is not
approved by the PRC, then we can take it to the board.
-dain
Re: Generic Logo Contest Guidelines
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
On Oct 8, 2005, at 1:59 PM, Dain Sundstrom wrote:
> On Oct 8, 2005, at 8:47 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
>
>> Lets cut to the root of it - Is your problem with having to work
>> within the guidelines from the PRC, or is there some particular
>> problem with the guidelines themselves? I'm sure that if it's the
>> latter, any reasonable suggestion, change or addition will be
>> welcomed.
>>
>
> Well cutting to the chase, I do have a problem with the
> guidelines. Everyone has an opinion on the logo, but the opinion
> of the folks involved in the PRC seem to cary veto power. It is
> clear that the PRC is simply trying to avoid potential future
> problems, and I believe that it is important for the members of the
> Geronimo community to hear the concerns of the PRC. I expect the
> Geronimo community should take this into account when selecting a
> logo, but I don't think that anyone other then the Geronimo
> community should be choosing the logo.
>
> The big problem here is the most popular logo is #11, and there are
> a few outsiders that don't like this. Instead of them coming to
> the community and trying to convince the community that this is a
> bad choice, the PRC simply issues a mandate, and that grates on
> me. I say, if you want to be involved in the Geronimo logo process
> come here and discuss it, otherwise keep your opinions to your self.
First, don't forget that this is an Apache project, and therefore we
have to abide by Apache Foundation guidelines for things.
Second, I think you are leaping to conclusions. If there is a logo
that we feel may not satisfy the guidelines but feel is ok, we should
probably just ask the PRC.
>
> If this is an official mandate of the board then we must accept it,
> but I'm not happy about it, which is why I feel it is critical to
> determine if this is a mandate of the board. Did the board give
> the PRC rule making authority over all imagery at Apache?
Yes.
> Did the board specifically direct the PRC to create logo guidelines?
No, but that's utterly irrelevant. I asked the PRC to create
guidelines, because our name selection was and is controversial, and
there's absolutely no reason to further antagonize members of the
Apache community with a logo decision along the same lines. Further,
our name and imagery will be used far and wide in the industry, and
very prominently, and I thought that was another excellent reason.
> Has the Board officially accepted these guidelines or is this still
> a rough draft?
Again, utterly irrelevant, as the board has officially delegated
responsibility for branding and imaging to the PRC, and doesn't need
to review every decision. If there are issues with the guidelines,
the PRC will welcome our feedback. If we're not satisfied, we can
appeal to the board, but I'm not sure what we'd be trying to achieve
at that point.
> I personally will be more comfortable if we knew exactly where
> these guidelines stand within Apache.
I hope it's clear now.
>
> BTW, I personally think #11 is tacky, but not offensive, and am
> fine to have it in the contest, but personally #9 to win.
>
If we think that we should go to the PRC about #11 and ask, lets do
that. Otherwise, lets move on.
geir
>
>>> Out of curiosity, if the guidelines are actually requirements,
>>> are existing logos subject to the requirements or are they
>>> grandfathered in?
>>>
>>
>> I'm assuming that they are grandfathered in, but I'm not really
>> worried about it.
>>
>
> I am interested because if they intend to force other projects to
> change their logos, then we should just sit back and wait for the
> guidelines to change :)
>
> -dain
>
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
Re: Generic Logo Contest Guidelines
Posted by Dain Sundstrom <da...@iq80.com>.
On Oct 8, 2005, at 8:47 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> Lets cut to the root of it - Is your problem with having to work
> within the guidelines from the PRC, or is there some particular
> problem with the guidelines themselves? I'm sure that if it's the
> latter, any reasonable suggestion, change or addition will be
> welcomed.
Well cutting to the chase, I do have a problem with the guidelines.
Everyone has an opinion on the logo, but the opinion of the folks
involved in the PRC seem to cary veto power. It is clear that the
PRC is simply trying to avoid potential future problems, and I
believe that it is important for the members of the Geronimo
community to hear the concerns of the PRC. I expect the Geronimo
community should take this into account when selecting a logo, but I
don't think that anyone other then the Geronimo community should be
choosing the logo.
The big problem here is the most popular logo is #11, and there are a
few outsiders that don't like this. Instead of them coming to the
community and trying to convince the community that this is a bad
choice, the PRC simply issues a mandate, and that grates on me. I
say, if you want to be involved in the Geronimo logo process come
here and discuss it, otherwise keep your opinions to your self.
If this is an official mandate of the board then we must accept it,
but I'm not happy about it, which is why I feel it is critical to
determine if this is a mandate of the board. Did the board give the
PRC rule making authority over all imagery at Apache? Did the board
specifically direct the PRC to create logo guidelines? Has the Board
officially accepted these guidelines or is this still a rough draft?
I personally will be more comfortable if we knew exactly where these
guidelines stand within Apache.
BTW, I personally think #11 is tacky, but not offensive, and am fine
to have it in the contest, but personally #9 to win.
>> Out of curiosity, if the guidelines are actually requirements, are
>> existing logos subject to the requirements or are they
>> grandfathered in?
>
> I'm assuming that they are grandfathered in, but I'm not really
> worried about it.
I am interested because if they intend to force other projects to
change their logos, then we should just sit back and wait for the
guidelines to change :)
-dain
Re: Generic Logo Contest Guidelines
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
thinking about this a bit more - I may have misunderstood - yes, we
are able to create our own guidelines for the contest, as long as
they include what the PRC has asked.
The PRC isn't being draconian IMO - they just want to ensure a
certain standard for projects, as what we projects do reflects on the
larger ASF...
geir
On Oct 8, 2005, at 11:47 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
> On Oct 8, 2005, at 1:33 AM, Dain Sundstrom wrote:
>
>
>> On Oct 7, 2005, at 8:55 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Rather than co-located next to Stepford, we are located *in* the
>>> Apache Software Foundation, and this is an *Apache* project.
>>> Therefore, we shall continue to work within the guidelines set by
>>> the ASF.
>>>
>>> If there are questions and concerns about the guidelines or
>>> specific logos, that is fair room for discussion. Rejecting the
>>> PRCs guidelines out of hand? Not so much...
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I don't want to diminish the work of the PRC in any way, but I
>> would like to clarify exactly what the "guidelines" are. Are
>> these official requirements from the Apache Board of Directors or
>> just the opinion of the PRC?
>>
>
> I believe the PRC is a board committee, authorized to make
> decisions on behalf of the foundation regarding PR issues.
>
>
>> From my understanding of the bylaws, the Geronimo PMC has the
>> right to choose a logo "subject to the direction of the Board of
>> Directors", so if the guidelines are simply a suggested "best
>> practices" from the PRC and not a requirement from the Board, the
>> Geronimo PMC would have the right to create it's own guidelines
>> possibly based on the PRC guidelines.
>>
>>
>
> Lets cut to the root of it - Is your problem with having to work
> within the guidelines from the PRC, or is there some particular
> problem with the guidelines themselves? I'm sure that if it's the
> latter, any reasonable suggestion, change or addition will be
> welcomed.
>
>
>> Out of curiosity, if the guidelines are actually requirements, are
>> existing logos subject to the requirements or are they
>> grandfathered in?
>>
>>
>
> I'm assuming that they are grandfathered in, but I'm not really
> worried about it.
>
> --
> Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
> geirm@apache.org
>
>
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
Re: Generic Logo Contest Guidelines
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
On Oct 8, 2005, at 1:33 AM, Dain Sundstrom wrote:
> On Oct 7, 2005, at 8:55 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
>
>> Rather than co-located next to Stepford, we are located *in* the
>> Apache Software Foundation, and this is an *Apache* project.
>> Therefore, we shall continue to work within the guidelines set by
>> the ASF.
>>
>> If there are questions and concerns about the guidelines or
>> specific logos, that is fair room for discussion. Rejecting the
>> PRCs guidelines out of hand? Not so much...
>>
>
> I don't want to diminish the work of the PRC in any way, but I
> would like to clarify exactly what the "guidelines" are. Are these
> official requirements from the Apache Board of Directors or just
> the opinion of the PRC?
I believe the PRC is a board committee, authorized to make decisions
on behalf of the foundation regarding PR issues.
> From my understanding of the bylaws, the Geronimo PMC has the
> right to choose a logo "subject to the direction of the Board of
> Directors", so if the guidelines are simply a suggested "best
> practices" from the PRC and not a requirement from the Board, the
> Geronimo PMC would have the right to create it's own guidelines
> possibly based on the PRC guidelines.
>
Lets cut to the root of it - Is your problem with having to work
within the guidelines from the PRC, or is there some particular
problem with the guidelines themselves? I'm sure that if it's the
latter, any reasonable suggestion, change or addition will be welcomed.
> Out of curiosity, if the guidelines are actually requirements, are
> existing logos subject to the requirements or are they
> grandfathered in?
>
I'm assuming that they are grandfathered in, but I'm not really
worried about it.
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
Re: Generic Logo Contest Guidelines
Posted by Dain Sundstrom <da...@iq80.com>.
On Oct 7, 2005, at 8:55 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> Rather than co-located next to Stepford, we are located *in* the
> Apache Software Foundation, and this is an *Apache* project.
> Therefore, we shall continue to work within the guidelines set by
> the ASF.
>
> If there are questions and concerns about the guidelines or
> specific logos, that is fair room for discussion. Rejecting the
> PRCs guidelines out of hand? Not so much...
I don't want to diminish the work of the PRC in any way, but I would
like to clarify exactly what the "guidelines" are. Are these
official requirements from the Apache Board of Directors or just the
opinion of the PRC? From my understanding of the bylaws, the
Geronimo PMC has the right to choose a logo "subject to the direction
of the Board of Directors", so if the guidelines are simply a
suggested "best practices" from the PRC and not a requirement from
the Board, the Geronimo PMC would have the right to create it's own
guidelines possibly based on the PRC guidelines.
Out of curiosity, if the guidelines are actually requirements, are
existing logos subject to the requirements or are they grandfathered in?
-dain
Re: Generic Logo Contest Guidelines
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
Rather than co-located next to Stepford, we are located *in* the
Apache Software Foundation, and this is an *Apache* project.
Therefore, we shall continue to work within the guidelines set by the
ASF.
If there are questions and concerns about the guidelines or specific
logos, that is fair room for discussion. Rejecting the PRCs
guidelines out of hand? Not so much...
geir
On Oct 7, 2005, at 10:49 AM, Matt Hogstrom wrote:
> J,
>
> Based on the quote from the PRC I agree with your logic.
> Unfortunately, these "requirements" are coming in at the end of the
> contest. I think this is a disservice to those whose contributions
> you site.
>
> I'm not sure what is offensive (can anyone answer that question?)
> I guess I refuse to drink the PC koolaid that others are so willing
> to chug. I didn't realize that Open Source is co-located next to
> Stepford.
>
> If it is Apache's position that no logo's that represent Native
> American lore are appropriate and that position is enforced across
> the projects then I'm willing to accept and live within that.
> Unfortunately, that is not the case. The Commons project has a
> peace pipe as their logo.
>
> The headdress symbolizes authority, honor and respect. Where is
> the offense in that ?
>
> Matt
>
> J wrote:
>
>> Based on the above email, and I quote
>> "Thus, a feather, which has many possible applications, would be
>> appropriate, but a headdress would not be."
>> Based on this I think entries numbers 7, 10, 11, should all not be
>> allowed for voting since from a professional standpoint they are
>> either a headress or symbolize a headress and the above statement
>> clearly states that a headress isn't appropriate.
>> Thanks.
>> Jason.
>> On 10/6/05, Geir Magnusson Jr. <ge...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> From the PRC for our logo contest.
>>>
>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: susan wu <su...@arctic.org>
>>>> Date: October 3, 2005 3:42:40 PM EDT
>>>> To: "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>
>>>> Cc: prc@apache.org
>>>> Subject: Generic Logo Contest Guidelines
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Can someone please publish this to the most appropriate place?
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Apache Project Logo Contest Guidelines
>>>>
>>>> Look and Feel Guidelines:
>>>> - Submissions must include a usable web version (PNG
>>>> preferred) and
>>>> a scalable vector, print quality version of the logo
>>>> - The logo will be used to promote the specific Apache
>>>> project for
>>>> which it is created and should evoke the overall Apache Software
>>>> Foundation
>>>> brand [community-centric open source development, delivering the
>>>> highest
>>>> quality, standards compliant software]
>>>> - The logo must incorporate the full project name, such as
>>>> Apache
>>>> Tomcat or Apache Geronimo
>>>> - The logo should not incorporate images that are
>>>> exclusively
>>>> specific to Native American culture. However, symbols that have
>>>> broad or
>>>> multiple meanings are acceptable in evoking a Native American
>>>> theme. Thus, a
>>>> feather, which has many possible applications, would be
>>>> appropriate, but a
>>>> headdress would not be. - The logo should not incorporate
>>>> any overt cultural or religious
>>>> symbolism
>>>> - The logo may incorporate other imagery, abstract symbols
>>>> or a
>>>> catchphrase, so long as the full project name is included somewhere
>>>> in the
>>>> logo. To this extent, the full project name can be displayed in a
>>>> smaller
>>>> font size than the main image, if there exists a main image
>>>> - The logo must reflect the values of the community
>>>> - The logo must adapt well to electronic and print
>>>> media, to
>>>> reproduction on small surfaces, and to use in color or in
>>>> grayscale.
>>>> - For tips on creating logos suitable for print media,
>>>> please review this or any other web guides you might find helpful:
>>>> http://www.sorrentomesa.com/education/techtips.html
>>>> - If the logo incorporates non-standards fonts, you must
>>>> be able to
>>>> provide us with the font should your logo be selected
>>>>
>>>> Process & Legal Guidelines:
>>>> - Acknowledgement to the winning entry will be provided on
>>>> the
>>>> appropriate project web site at http://
>>>> [insertprojectname].apache.org - The Apache Software
>>>> Foundation reserves the right to select no
>>>> winning entry, if it deems that the submissions do not meet the
>>>> needs of the
>>>> organization
>>>> - If the Logo is selected, the contributor must assign all
>>>> rights to
>>>> the selected images to the Apache Software Foundation
>>>> - Logo must be free of any copyright or any other
>>>> intellectual
>>>> property claims
>>>> - Logo must not incorporate or extend existing trademarks
>>>> of other
>>>> companies
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We recommend that every project post information relating to the
>>>> submission,
>>>> selection, and approval process:
>>>> - Submissions will accepted by [wiki, email, upload to
>>>> XYZ] until
>>>> October 31, 2005
>>>> - The final decision will be made by the Apache Geronimo
>>>> PMC [and
>>>> the Apache Public Relations Committee]. Input from the community
>>>> will be
>>>> welcomed in the form of wiki discussions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
>>> geirm@apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
Re: Generic Logo Contest Guidelines
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
On Oct 9, 2005, at 12:49 PM, Matt Hogstrom wrote:
> he.org> <58...@iq80.com>
> <9A...@apache.org>
> <6B...@iq80.com> <1A8508BB-
> DCFA-4D0D-8631-48280D5379ED@apache.org> <9D711FD5-
> A134-47BF-8976-91C5ADCE2BEE@iq80.com>
> In-Reply-To: <9D...@iq80.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
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> X-MMS-Smtp-Auth: Authenticated As matt@hogstrom.org
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>
> Working off your comment below I cam to the same conclusion last
> night. I
> suggest that we vote all images with 2 to 3 votes for primary,
> seconda and third
> alternate. The PMC can then take on the burden of scrubbing the
> votes. The
> best case is we have a clear, non-controversial winner, and worst
> case, the PMC
> needs to discriminate the images based on the PRC and the PMC can
> work with the
> PRC to resolve the issues with the community feedback as their
> rationale /
> justification.
>
> I will update the logo page this afternoon with this idea
> (actually, its mostly
> done now) and start the voting on Monday. I'd rather get back to
> analyzing
> Geronimo code than political undertones :)
>
> Comments? Barring sharp disagreement I'm proceeding on this tack.
I don't quite get it.
I assuming -
1) voting happens via email
2) each person can vote for 1st, 2nd and third
3) the PMC computes the result
4) The PMC makes the final decision, incorporating the PRC guidelines?
That works for me.
geir
>
> Matt
>
> Dain Sundstrom wrote:
>
>> On Oct 9, 2005, at 7:11 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 8, 2005, at 1:59 PM, Dain Sundstrom wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Oct 8, 2005, at 8:47 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Lets cut to the root of it - Is your problem with having to work
>>>>> within the guidelines from the PRC, or is there some particular
>>>>> problem with the guidelines themselves? I'm sure that if it's
>>>>> the
>>>>> latter, any reasonable suggestion, change or addition will be
>>>>> welcomed.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well cutting to the chase, I do have a problem with the
>>>> guidelines.
>>>> Everyone has an opinion on the logo, but the opinion of the folks
>>>> involved in the PRC seem to cary veto power. It is clear that the
>>>> PRC is simply trying to avoid potential future problems, and I
>>>> believe that it is important for the members of the Geronimo
>>>> community to hear the concerns of the PRC. I expect the Geronimo
>>>> community should take this into account when selecting a logo,
>>>> but I
>>>> don't think that anyone other then the Geronimo community
>>>> should be
>>>> choosing the logo.
>>>>
>>>> The big problem here is the most popular logo is #11, and there
>>>> are
>>>> a few outsiders that don't like this. Instead of them coming
>>>> to the
>>>> community and trying to convince the community that this is a bad
>>>> choice, the PRC simply issues a mandate, and that grates on me. I
>>>> say, if you want to be involved in the Geronimo logo process come
>>>> here and discuss it, otherwise keep your opinions to your self.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> First, don't forget that this is an Apache project, and
>>> therefore we
>>> have to abide by Apache Foundation guidelines for things.
>>>
>>
>>
>> In every email I have sent I have made this point. If this is an
>> official "Apache Foundation guideline" then we must follow it, or
>> appeal it to the board. I am questioning if this is an official
>> "Apache Foundation guideline".
>>
>>
>>> Second, I think you are leaping to conclusions. If there is a logo
>>> that we feel may not satisfy the guidelines but feel is ok, we
>>> should
>>> probably just ask the PRC.
>>>
>>
>>
>> That statement implies that the PRC has jurisdiction over logo
>> selection, and I am questioning that.
>>
>>
>>>> If this is an official mandate of the board then we must accept
>>>> it,
>>>> but I'm not happy about it, which is why I feel it is critical to
>>>> determine if this is a mandate of the board. Did the board
>>>> give the
>>>> PRC rule making authority over all imagery at Apache?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Cool. That was all I was asking. Now for a bit of Regan "trust but
>> verify". Where can I find the Board resolution stating this?
>>
>>
>>>> Did the board specifically direct the PRC to create logo
>>>> guidelines?
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No, but that's utterly irrelevant. I asked the PRC to create
>>> guidelines, because our name selection was and is controversial,
>>> and
>>> there's absolutely no reason to further antagonize members of the
>>> Apache community with a logo decision along the same lines.
>>> Further,
>>> our name and imagery will be used far and wide in the industry, and
>>> very prominently, and I thought that was another excellent reason.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Assuming the above is true, I agree the question was irrelevant. If
>> you did have concerns, why didn't you come to the community first?
>>
>>
>>>> Has the Board officially accepted these guidelines or is this
>>>> still
>>>> a rough draft?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Again, utterly irrelevant, as the board has officially delegated
>>> responsibility for branding and imaging to the PRC, and doesn't
>>> need
>>> to review every decision. If there are issues with the
>>> guidelines,
>>> the PRC will welcome our feedback. If we're not satisfied, we can
>>> appeal to the board, but I'm not sure what we'd be trying to
>>> achieve
>>> at that point.
>>>
>>
>>
>> I think it is completely relevant. Given that this policy
>> effects the
>> entire ASF and changes the way logos has been done up to this
>> point, if
>> this is just a draft, I would propose that we wait for the final
>> form,
>> because my guess is it will tick off some powerful Apache
>> members, and
>> be changed.
>>
>>
>>>> I personally will be more comfortable if we knew exactly where
>>>> these guidelines stand within Apache.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I hope it's clear now.
>>>
>>
>>
>> It is now. I was my understanding that Apache tended favor putting
>> decisions into "Project Rights" and not "Foundation Rights", but I
>> guess as any organization ages there is a tendency to centralize more
>> and more.
>>
>>
>>>> BTW, I personally think #11 is tacky, but not offensive, and am
>>>> fine
>>>> to have it in the contest, but personally #9 to win.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If we think that we should go to the PRC about #11 and ask, lets do
>>> that. Otherwise, lets move on.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Good idea. Why don't we have the logo contest will all logos? I
>> think
>> everyone in the community gets the seriousness of this issue, and
>> will
>> take it into account when voting. If the winner is not approved
>> by the
>> PRC, then we can take it to the board.
>>
>> -dain
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
Re: Generic Logo Contest Guidelines
Posted by J <ne...@gmail.com>.
Matt
These "requirements" that you are stating were mentioned in the wiki,
in the contest rules under the imagery section from the start. And I
quote again, "As such, we wish to avoid any imagery that is
stereotypical or caricatural in nature or that would impart a new
identity to the Geronimo name."
Now, the headress is in fact stereotypical in nature to Native
Americans. In my professional opinion think since this is a logo that
will inevitalby inherit a trademark of a company, then as such it must
be registered with the United States Patent and Trademark Office. To
register a logo it must fall under certain requirements. The headdress
might in fact be an official insignia of any one of the many Native
American tribes, it might already be listed in the Database of Native
American Tribal Insignia and therefore might not be allowed to be
usable.
Furthermore, the United States Patent and Trademark's goal is to
protect Native American tribes and thier intellectual property.
Look for yourself!
-J
On 10/7/05, Matt Hogstrom <ma...@hogstrom.org> wrote:
> J,
>
> Based on the quote from the PRC I agree with your logic. Unfortunately, these
> "requirements" are coming in at the end of the contest. I think this is a
> disservice to those whose contributions you site.
>
> I'm not sure what is offensive (can anyone answer that question?) I guess I
> refuse to drink the PC koolaid that others are so willing to chug. I didn't
> realize that Open Source is co-located next to Stepford.
>
> If it is Apache's position that no logo's that represent Native American lore
> are appropriate and that position is enforced across the projects then I'm
> willing to accept and live within that. Unfortunately, that is not the case.
> The Commons project has a peace pipe as their logo.
>
> The headdress symbolizes authority, honor and respect. Where is the offense in
> that ?
>
> Matt
>
> J wrote:
> > Based on the above email, and I quote
> >
> > "Thus, a feather, which has many possible applications, would be
> > appropriate, but a headdress would not be."
> >
> > Based on this I think entries numbers 7, 10, 11, should all not be
> > allowed for voting since from a professional standpoint they are
> > either a headress or symbolize a headress and the above statement
> > clearly states that a headress isn't appropriate.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Jason.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 10/6/05, Geir Magnusson Jr. <ge...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >> From the PRC for our logo contest.
> >>
> >>Begin forwarded message:
> >>
> >>
> >>>From: susan wu <su...@arctic.org>
> >>>Date: October 3, 2005 3:42:40 PM EDT
> >>>To: "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>
> >>>Cc: prc@apache.org
> >>>Subject: Generic Logo Contest Guidelines
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Can someone please publish this to the most appropriate place? Thanks.
> >>>
> >>>Apache Project Logo Contest Guidelines
> >>>
> >>>Look and Feel Guidelines:
> >>>- Submissions must include a usable web version (PNG
> >>>preferred) and
> >>>a scalable vector, print quality version of the logo
> >>>- The logo will be used to promote the specific Apache
> >>>project for
> >>>which it is created and should evoke the overall Apache Software
> >>>Foundation
> >>>brand [community-centric open source development, delivering the
> >>>highest
> >>>quality, standards compliant software]
> >>>- The logo must incorporate the full project name, such as
> >>>Apache
> >>>Tomcat or Apache Geronimo
> >>>- The logo should not incorporate images that are exclusively
> >>>specific to Native American culture. However, symbols that have
> >>>broad or
> >>>multiple meanings are acceptable in evoking a Native American
> >>>theme. Thus, a
> >>>feather, which has many possible applications, would be
> >>>appropriate, but a
> >>>headdress would not be. - The logo should not incorporate
> >>>any overt cultural or religious
> >>>symbolism
> >>>- The logo may incorporate other imagery, abstract symbols
> >>>or a
> >>>catchphrase, so long as the full project name is included somewhere
> >>>in the
> >>>logo. To this extent, the full project name can be displayed in a
> >>>smaller
> >>>font size than the main image, if there exists a main image
> >>>- The logo must reflect the values of the community
> >>>- The logo must adapt well to electronic and print media, to
> >>>reproduction on small surfaces, and to use in color or in grayscale.
> >>>- For tips on creating logos suitable for print media,
> >>>please review this or any other web guides you might find helpful:
> >>> http://www.sorrentomesa.com/education/techtips.html
> >>>- If the logo incorporates non-standards fonts, you must
> >>>be able to
> >>>provide us with the font should your logo be selected
> >>>
> >>>Process & Legal Guidelines:
> >>>- Acknowledgement to the winning entry will be provided on
> >>>the
> >>>appropriate project web site at http://
> >>>[insertprojectname].apache.org - The Apache Software
> >>>Foundation reserves the right to select no
> >>>winning entry, if it deems that the submissions do not meet the
> >>>needs of the
> >>>organization
> >>>- If the Logo is selected, the contributor must assign all
> >>>rights to
> >>>the selected images to the Apache Software Foundation
> >>>- Logo must be free of any copyright or any other
> >>>intellectual
> >>>property claims
> >>>- Logo must not incorporate or extend existing trademarks
> >>>of other
> >>>companies
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>We recommend that every project post information relating to the
> >>>submission,
> >>>selection, and approval process:
> >>>- Submissions will accepted by [wiki, email, upload to
> >>>XYZ] until
> >>>October 31, 2005
> >>>- The final decision will be made by the Apache Geronimo
> >>>PMC [and
> >>>the Apache Public Relations Committee]. Input from the community
> >>>will be
> >>>welcomed in the form of wiki discussions.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>--
> >>Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
> >>geirm@apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Re: Generic Logo Contest Guidelines
Posted by Matt Hogstrom <ma...@hogstrom.org>.
b96d9c@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <b5...@mail.gmail.com>
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J,
First off, I apologize. I vented my frustration at the situation at you and
that was in appropriate. I'm sorry.
As far as the registration with the US Patent and Trademark Office you are
probably better versed in the requirements because I would be lucky to draw
anything better than a stick man.
As far as the requirements go, my zeal for freedom of speech tainted my
interpretation of the clause. Although I think ASF is broken in their
consistent enforcement of this issue across all projects I think it is fair to
say that we can work with what we have.
So, in all that. I officially apologize and repent in dust and ashes.
Matt
J wrote:
> Matt
>
> These "requirements" that you are stating were mentioned in the wiki,
> in the contest rules under the imagery section from the start. And I
> quote again, "As such, we wish to avoid any imagery that is
> stereotypical or caricatural in nature or that would impart a new
> identity to the Geronimo name."
>
> Now, the headress is in fact stereotypical in nature to Native
> Americans. In my professional opinion think since this is a logo that
> will inevitalby inherit a trademark of a company, then as such it must
> be registered with the United States Patent and Trademark Office. To
> register a logo it must fall under certain requirements. The headdress
> might in fact be an official insignia of any one of the many Native
> American tribes, it might already be listed in the Database of Native
> American Tribal Insignia and therefore might not be allowed to be
> usable.
>
> Furthermore, the United States Patent and Trademark's goal is to
> protect Native American tribes and thier intellectual property.
>
> Look for yourself!
>
> -J
>
> On 10/7/05, Matt Hogstrom <ma...@hogstrom.org> wrote:
>
>>J,
>>
>>Based on the quote from the PRC I agree with your logic. Unfortunately, these
>>"requirements" are coming in at the end of the contest. I think this is a
>>disservice to those whose contributions you site.
>>
>>I'm not sure what is offensive (can anyone answer that question?) I guess I
>>refuse to drink the PC koolaid that others are so willing to chug. I didn't
>>realize that Open Source is co-located next to Stepford.
>>
>>If it is Apache's position that no logo's that represent Native American lore
>>are appropriate and that position is enforced across the projects then I'm
>>willing to accept and live within that. Unfortunately, that is not the case.
>>The Commons project has a peace pipe as their logo.
>>
>>The headdress symbolizes authority, honor and respect. Where is the offense in
>>that ?
>>
>>Matt
>>
>>J wrote:
>>
>>>Based on the above email, and I quote
>>>
>>>"Thus, a feather, which has many possible applications, would be
>>>appropriate, but a headdress would not be."
>>>
>>>Based on this I think entries numbers 7, 10, 11, should all not be
>>>allowed for voting since from a professional standpoint they are
>>>either a headress or symbolize a headress and the above statement
>>>clearly states that a headress isn't appropriate.
>>>
>>>Thanks.
>>>
>>>Jason.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On 10/6/05, Geir Magnusson Jr. <ge...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>From the PRC for our logo contest.
>>>>
>>>>Begin forwarded message:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>From: susan wu <su...@arctic.org>
>>>>>Date: October 3, 2005 3:42:40 PM EDT
>>>>>To: "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>
>>>>>Cc: prc@apache.org
>>>>>Subject: Generic Logo Contest Guidelines
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Can someone please publish this to the most appropriate place? Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>>Apache Project Logo Contest Guidelines
>>>>>
>>>>>Look and Feel Guidelines:
>>>>>- Submissions must include a usable web version (PNG
>>>>>preferred) and
>>>>>a scalable vector, print quality version of the logo
>>>>>- The logo will be used to promote the specific Apache
>>>>>project for
>>>>>which it is created and should evoke the overall Apache Software
>>>>>Foundation
>>>>>brand [community-centric open source development, delivering the
>>>>>highest
>>>>>quality, standards compliant software]
>>>>>- The logo must incorporate the full project name, such as
>>>>>Apache
>>>>>Tomcat or Apache Geronimo
>>>>>- The logo should not incorporate images that are exclusively
>>>>>specific to Native American culture. However, symbols that have
>>>>>broad or
>>>>>multiple meanings are acceptable in evoking a Native American
>>>>>theme. Thus, a
>>>>>feather, which has many possible applications, would be
>>>>>appropriate, but a
>>>>>headdress would not be. - The logo should not incorporate
>>>>>any overt cultural or religious
>>>>>symbolism
>>>>>- The logo may incorporate other imagery, abstract symbols
>>>>>or a
>>>>>catchphrase, so long as the full project name is included somewhere
>>>>>in the
>>>>>logo. To this extent, the full project name can be displayed in a
>>>>>smaller
>>>>>font size than the main image, if there exists a main image
>>>>>- The logo must reflect the values of the community
>>>>>- The logo must adapt well to electronic and print media, to
>>>>>reproduction on small surfaces, and to use in color or in grayscale.
>>>>>- For tips on creating logos suitable for print media,
>>>>>please review this or any other web guides you might find helpful:
>>>>> http://www.sorrentomesa.com/education/techtips.html
>>>>>- If the logo incorporates non-standards fonts, you must
>>>>>be able to
>>>>>provide us with the font should your logo be selected
>>>>>
>>>>>Process & Legal Guidelines:
>>>>>- Acknowledgement to the winning entry will be provided on
>>>>>the
>>>>>appropriate project web site at http://
>>>>>[insertprojectname].apache.org - The Apache Software
>>>>>Foundation reserves the right to select no
>>>>>winning entry, if it deems that the submissions do not meet the
>>>>>needs of the
>>>>>organization
>>>>>- If the Logo is selected, the contributor must assign all
>>>>>rights to
>>>>>the selected images to the Apache Software Foundation
>>>>>- Logo must be free of any copyright or any other
>>>>>intellectual
>>>>>property claims
>>>>>- Logo must not incorporate or extend existing trademarks
>>>>>of other
>>>>>companies
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>We recommend that every project post information relating to the
>>>>>submission,
>>>>>selection, and approval process:
>>>>>- Submissions will accepted by [wiki, email, upload to
>>>>>XYZ] until
>>>>>October 31, 2005
>>>>>- The final decision will be made by the Apache Geronimo
>>>>>PMC [and
>>>>>the Apache Public Relations Committee]. Input from the community
>>>>>will be
>>>>>welcomed in the form of wiki discussions.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
>>>>geirm@apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
Re: Generic Logo Contest Guidelines
Posted by Matt Hogstrom <ma...@hogstrom.org>.
he.org> <58...@iq80.com> <9A...@apache.org> <6B...@iq80.com> <1A...@apache.org> <9D...@iq80.com>
In-Reply-To: <9D...@iq80.com>
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Working off your comment below I cam to the same conclusion last night. I
suggest that we vote all images with 2 to 3 votes for primary, seconda and third
alternate. The PMC can then take on the burden of scrubbing the votes. The
best case is we have a clear, non-controversial winner, and worst case, the PMC
needs to discriminate the images based on the PRC and the PMC can work with the
PRC to resolve the issues with the community feedback as their rationale /
justification.
I will update the logo page this afternoon with this idea (actually, its mostly
done now) and start the voting on Monday. I'd rather get back to analyzing
Geronimo code than political undertones :)
Comments? Barring sharp disagreement I'm proceeding on this tack.
Matt
Dain Sundstrom wrote:
> On Oct 9, 2005, at 7:11 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
>> On Oct 8, 2005, at 1:59 PM, Dain Sundstrom wrote:
>>
>>> On Oct 8, 2005, at 8:47 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>>>
>>>> Lets cut to the root of it - Is your problem with having to work
>>>> within the guidelines from the PRC, or is there some particular
>>>> problem with the guidelines themselves? I'm sure that if it's the
>>>> latter, any reasonable suggestion, change or addition will be
>>>> welcomed.
>>>
>>>
>>> Well cutting to the chase, I do have a problem with the guidelines.
>>> Everyone has an opinion on the logo, but the opinion of the folks
>>> involved in the PRC seem to cary veto power. It is clear that the
>>> PRC is simply trying to avoid potential future problems, and I
>>> believe that it is important for the members of the Geronimo
>>> community to hear the concerns of the PRC. I expect the Geronimo
>>> community should take this into account when selecting a logo, but I
>>> don't think that anyone other then the Geronimo community should be
>>> choosing the logo.
>>>
>>> The big problem here is the most popular logo is #11, and there are
>>> a few outsiders that don't like this. Instead of them coming to the
>>> community and trying to convince the community that this is a bad
>>> choice, the PRC simply issues a mandate, and that grates on me. I
>>> say, if you want to be involved in the Geronimo logo process come
>>> here and discuss it, otherwise keep your opinions to your self.
>>>
>>
>> First, don't forget that this is an Apache project, and therefore we
>> have to abide by Apache Foundation guidelines for things.
>
>
> In every email I have sent I have made this point. If this is an
> official "Apache Foundation guideline" then we must follow it, or
> appeal it to the board. I am questioning if this is an official
> "Apache Foundation guideline".
>
>> Second, I think you are leaping to conclusions. If there is a logo
>> that we feel may not satisfy the guidelines but feel is ok, we should
>> probably just ask the PRC.
>
>
> That statement implies that the PRC has jurisdiction over logo
> selection, and I am questioning that.
>
>>> If this is an official mandate of the board then we must accept it,
>>> but I'm not happy about it, which is why I feel it is critical to
>>> determine if this is a mandate of the board. Did the board give the
>>> PRC rule making authority over all imagery at Apache?
>>>
>>
>> Yes.
>
>
> Cool. That was all I was asking. Now for a bit of Regan "trust but
> verify". Where can I find the Board resolution stating this?
>
>>> Did the board specifically direct the PRC to create logo guidelines?
>>
>>
>> No, but that's utterly irrelevant. I asked the PRC to create
>> guidelines, because our name selection was and is controversial, and
>> there's absolutely no reason to further antagonize members of the
>> Apache community with a logo decision along the same lines. Further,
>> our name and imagery will be used far and wide in the industry, and
>> very prominently, and I thought that was another excellent reason.
>
>
> Assuming the above is true, I agree the question was irrelevant. If
> you did have concerns, why didn't you come to the community first?
>
>>> Has the Board officially accepted these guidelines or is this still
>>> a rough draft?
>>>
>>
>> Again, utterly irrelevant, as the board has officially delegated
>> responsibility for branding and imaging to the PRC, and doesn't need
>> to review every decision. If there are issues with the guidelines,
>> the PRC will welcome our feedback. If we're not satisfied, we can
>> appeal to the board, but I'm not sure what we'd be trying to achieve
>> at that point.
>
>
> I think it is completely relevant. Given that this policy effects the
> entire ASF and changes the way logos has been done up to this point, if
> this is just a draft, I would propose that we wait for the final form,
> because my guess is it will tick off some powerful Apache members, and
> be changed.
>
>>> I personally will be more comfortable if we knew exactly where
>>> these guidelines stand within Apache.
>>
>>
>> I hope it's clear now.
>
>
> It is now. I was my understanding that Apache tended favor putting
> decisions into "Project Rights" and not "Foundation Rights", but I
> guess as any organization ages there is a tendency to centralize more
> and more.
>
>>> BTW, I personally think #11 is tacky, but not offensive, and am fine
>>> to have it in the contest, but personally #9 to win.
>>
>>
>> If we think that we should go to the PRC about #11 and ask, lets do
>> that. Otherwise, lets move on.
>
>
> Good idea. Why don't we have the logo contest will all logos? I think
> everyone in the community gets the seriousness of this issue, and will
> take it into account when voting. If the winner is not approved by the
> PRC, then we can take it to the board.
>
> -dain
>
>
>
Re: Generic Logo Contest Guidelines
Posted by Matt Hogstrom <ma...@hogstrom.org>.
J,
Based on the quote from the PRC I agree with your logic. Unfortunately, these
"requirements" are coming in at the end of the contest. I think this is a
disservice to those whose contributions you site.
I'm not sure what is offensive (can anyone answer that question?) I guess I
refuse to drink the PC koolaid that others are so willing to chug. I didn't
realize that Open Source is co-located next to Stepford.
If it is Apache's position that no logo's that represent Native American lore
are appropriate and that position is enforced across the projects then I'm
willing to accept and live within that. Unfortunately, that is not the case.
The Commons project has a peace pipe as their logo.
The headdress symbolizes authority, honor and respect. Where is the offense in
that ?
Matt
J wrote:
> Based on the above email, and I quote
>
> "Thus, a feather, which has many possible applications, would be
> appropriate, but a headdress would not be."
>
> Based on this I think entries numbers 7, 10, 11, should all not be
> allowed for voting since from a professional standpoint they are
> either a headress or symbolize a headress and the above statement
> clearly states that a headress isn't appropriate.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jason.
>
>
>
> On 10/6/05, Geir Magnusson Jr. <ge...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> From the PRC for our logo contest.
>>
>>Begin forwarded message:
>>
>>
>>>From: susan wu <su...@arctic.org>
>>>Date: October 3, 2005 3:42:40 PM EDT
>>>To: "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>
>>>Cc: prc@apache.org
>>>Subject: Generic Logo Contest Guidelines
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Can someone please publish this to the most appropriate place? Thanks.
>>>
>>>Apache Project Logo Contest Guidelines
>>>
>>>Look and Feel Guidelines:
>>>- Submissions must include a usable web version (PNG
>>>preferred) and
>>>a scalable vector, print quality version of the logo
>>>- The logo will be used to promote the specific Apache
>>>project for
>>>which it is created and should evoke the overall Apache Software
>>>Foundation
>>>brand [community-centric open source development, delivering the
>>>highest
>>>quality, standards compliant software]
>>>- The logo must incorporate the full project name, such as
>>>Apache
>>>Tomcat or Apache Geronimo
>>>- The logo should not incorporate images that are exclusively
>>>specific to Native American culture. However, symbols that have
>>>broad or
>>>multiple meanings are acceptable in evoking a Native American
>>>theme. Thus, a
>>>feather, which has many possible applications, would be
>>>appropriate, but a
>>>headdress would not be. - The logo should not incorporate
>>>any overt cultural or religious
>>>symbolism
>>>- The logo may incorporate other imagery, abstract symbols
>>>or a
>>>catchphrase, so long as the full project name is included somewhere
>>>in the
>>>logo. To this extent, the full project name can be displayed in a
>>>smaller
>>>font size than the main image, if there exists a main image
>>>- The logo must reflect the values of the community
>>>- The logo must adapt well to electronic and print media, to
>>>reproduction on small surfaces, and to use in color or in grayscale.
>>>- For tips on creating logos suitable for print media,
>>>please review this or any other web guides you might find helpful:
>>> http://www.sorrentomesa.com/education/techtips.html
>>>- If the logo incorporates non-standards fonts, you must
>>>be able to
>>>provide us with the font should your logo be selected
>>>
>>>Process & Legal Guidelines:
>>>- Acknowledgement to the winning entry will be provided on
>>>the
>>>appropriate project web site at http://
>>>[insertprojectname].apache.org - The Apache Software
>>>Foundation reserves the right to select no
>>>winning entry, if it deems that the submissions do not meet the
>>>needs of the
>>>organization
>>>- If the Logo is selected, the contributor must assign all
>>>rights to
>>>the selected images to the Apache Software Foundation
>>>- Logo must be free of any copyright or any other
>>>intellectual
>>>property claims
>>>- Logo must not incorporate or extend existing trademarks
>>>of other
>>>companies
>>>
>>>
>>>We recommend that every project post information relating to the
>>>submission,
>>>selection, and approval process:
>>>- Submissions will accepted by [wiki, email, upload to
>>>XYZ] until
>>>October 31, 2005
>>>- The final decision will be made by the Apache Geronimo
>>>PMC [and
>>>the Apache Public Relations Committee]. Input from the community
>>>will be
>>>welcomed in the form of wiki discussions.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>--
>>Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
>>geirm@apache.org
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Re: Generic Logo Contest Guidelines
Posted by J <ne...@gmail.com>.
Based on the above email, and I quote
"Thus, a feather, which has many possible applications, would be
appropriate, but a headdress would not be."
Based on this I think entries numbers 7, 10, 11, should all not be
allowed for voting since from a professional standpoint they are
either a headress or symbolize a headress and the above statement
clearly states that a headress isn't appropriate.
Thanks.
Jason.
On 10/6/05, Geir Magnusson Jr. <ge...@apache.org> wrote:
> From the PRC for our logo contest.
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> > From: susan wu <su...@arctic.org>
> > Date: October 3, 2005 3:42:40 PM EDT
> > To: "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>
> > Cc: prc@apache.org
> > Subject: Generic Logo Contest Guidelines
> >
> >
> >
> > Can someone please publish this to the most appropriate place? Thanks.
> >
> > Apache Project Logo Contest Guidelines
> >
> > Look and Feel Guidelines:
> > - Submissions must include a usable web version (PNG
> > preferred) and
> > a scalable vector, print quality version of the logo
> > - The logo will be used to promote the specific Apache
> > project for
> > which it is created and should evoke the overall Apache Software
> > Foundation
> > brand [community-centric open source development, delivering the
> > highest
> > quality, standards compliant software]
> > - The logo must incorporate the full project name, such as
> > Apache
> > Tomcat or Apache Geronimo
> > - The logo should not incorporate images that are exclusively
> > specific to Native American culture. However, symbols that have
> > broad or
> > multiple meanings are acceptable in evoking a Native American
> > theme. Thus, a
> > feather, which has many possible applications, would be
> > appropriate, but a
> > headdress would not be. - The logo should not incorporate
> > any overt cultural or religious
> > symbolism
> > - The logo may incorporate other imagery, abstract symbols
> > or a
> > catchphrase, so long as the full project name is included somewhere
> > in the
> > logo. To this extent, the full project name can be displayed in a
> > smaller
> > font size than the main image, if there exists a main image
> > - The logo must reflect the values of the community
> > - The logo must adapt well to electronic and print media, to
> > reproduction on small surfaces, and to use in color or in grayscale.
> > - For tips on creating logos suitable for print media,
> > please review this or any other web guides you might find helpful:
> > http://www.sorrentomesa.com/education/techtips.html
> > - If the logo incorporates non-standards fonts, you must
> > be able to
> > provide us with the font should your logo be selected
> >
> > Process & Legal Guidelines:
> > - Acknowledgement to the winning entry will be provided on
> > the
> > appropriate project web site at http://
> > [insertprojectname].apache.org - The Apache Software
> > Foundation reserves the right to select no
> > winning entry, if it deems that the submissions do not meet the
> > needs of the
> > organization
> > - If the Logo is selected, the contributor must assign all
> > rights to
> > the selected images to the Apache Software Foundation
> > - Logo must be free of any copyright or any other
> > intellectual
> > property claims
> > - Logo must not incorporate or extend existing trademarks
> > of other
> > companies
> >
> >
> > We recommend that every project post information relating to the
> > submission,
> > selection, and approval process:
> > - Submissions will accepted by [wiki, email, upload to
> > XYZ] until
> > October 31, 2005
> > - The final decision will be made by the Apache Geronimo
> > PMC [and
> > the Apache Public Relations Committee]. Input from the community
> > will be
> > welcomed in the form of wiki discussions.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
> geirm@apache.org
>
>
>