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Posted to users@tapestry.apache.org by Alex Kotchnev <ak...@gmail.com> on 2008/09/03 05:16:47 UTC
T5 : [ANN] The book - next steps
I've created a new project for the proposed book at
http://code.google.com/p/tapestry5-book , and posted the proposed table of
contents at
http://code.google.com/p/tapestry5-book/wiki/ProposedTableOfContents . Now
that I'm looking at it, it's a little disappointing as the TOC doesn't
really have anything new in it (e.g. some of it is covered in tutorials,
other is in the project docs, etc). However, I guess that the content really
can't be all that different - it's all about building web apps, covering the
same materials as the other documentation. In the end, I think that the book
will be different from the other existing documents based on its style and
breadth of content, and not so much in the topics it covers.
Anyway, I would like to create a mailing list and add everyone who has
expressed an interest in contributing to the book. Unfortunately, Google
Code doesn't have mailng lists, so I'll probably have to look around for
that (Nabble, maybe?). Any suggestions would be welcome here.
In terms of moving the proposed TOC forward, here are some of my next steps
:
1. Attribute the main sections of the project documentation into possible
chapters in the book.
2. Discuss feedback from this list on the content of the proposed TOC : e.g.
any alternative ideas on how to organize the book, changes to the proposed
chapter titles, order, etc.
It would be great if there are any volunteers to investigate some of the
issues that were discussed previously in the thread below, I'll probably
post the needed tasks somewhere on the wiki as well.
When we get our mailing list set up, I think that individuals or groups of
individuals can claim ownership of each chapter (and thus get "voting
rights" on the TOC, chapter layout, further modifications, etc.
Cheers,
Alex Kotchnev
On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 4:59 AM, Hugo Palma <hu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> inline
>
> Alex Kotchnev wrote:
>
>> Would there be any value to having a top-level domain for the book (e.g.
>> tapestry-book.org or something like that), or can we find it a home for
>> the
>> book somewhere under the Tapestry namespace ?
>>
>>
> A top-level domain should brink more visibility to the effort. Also, in the
> future we could probably spend some of the monetary payback to pay for the
> domain and some hosting solution so that we could include the live version
> of the book application and other cool stuff.
> Still, for now i think we can live with a project on some project hosting
> site where we can host the book files and wiki.
>
>> A note on the potential mode for governing decisions : I was thinking that
>> in the next couple of days, I'll post a list of possible chapters to
>> include
>> in the book. Then, we can collect a first set of volunteers for people
>> take
>> ownership of each chapter. After the initial set of volunteers, the
>> chapter
>> owners will vote on addition of new chapters and giving ownership of
>> chapters to new contributors (if needed).
>>
>>
> Shouldn't the outline be already created in a tapestry-book wiki ?
> We could decide on where to host it and then move the discussion to the
> dedicated list and use its wiki for the outline.
>
> On whether the book would cover additional libraries (e.g. chennilekit,
>> t5components): I think that after we get to a good place where we have
>> enough content on the core we can probably spend some time on those as
>> well,
>> possibly with contributions from the project owners. Conceptually, it
>> would
>> be impossible to include all 3rd party / contrib libraries in the book (or
>> it will always be incomplete) . I guess my point is that I think we'd want
>> to describe Tapestry and most essential additions (e.g. t5-hibernate,
>> t5-spring, etc).
>>
>>
> While it's true that if we go down the line of including third party
> libraries it will always be incomplete and maybe unfair to some i think it
> would be important to cover the ones that we consider the most used. We
> could go with a voting process where each one would say the top 2 or 3 third
> party libraries in his opinion. The top 2 or 3 would get included in the
> book.
>
> Cheers,
>>
>> Alex Kotchnev
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 11:13 PM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo <
>> thiagohp@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Em Tue, 26 Aug 2008 23:30:41 -0300, Alex Kotchnev <ak...@gmail.com>
>>> escreveu:
>>>
>>> Here are a couple of the next steps that I think would be useful in
>>> moving
>>>
>>>
>>>> the effort forward:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Nice! I was thinking of posting a similar set of questions here . . . :)
>>>
>>> 1. Post a rough outline of the table of contents in the book (initially,
>>>
>>>
>>>> probably on the wiki).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> +1 I can't thing of another way of kicking off this project.
>>> I just suggest another step: just start writing real content after
>>> refining
>>> the table of contents, thus avoiding some Frankensteinian results.
>>>
>>> 2. Experiment somewhat w/ the publishing / collaboration methodology.
>>> +1
>>>
>>> 3. One of my areas of concern is how the merging of xml/docbook would
>>> work
>>>
>>>
>>>> in the long term. I know it's just text, but I'd imagine the doc-book
>>>> project will probably have it's own way of editing content and
>>>> converting
>>>> it into docbook
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I always tend to prefer handwriting documents and code over tools (so
>>> Howard's Tapestry 5, I guess :) and we could define some policies related
>>> to
>>> use of tags, whitespace and maximum line length. I think the merging
>>> problems would be reduced this way.
>>>
>>> 5. I think it would be best if we use either an existing "examples"
>>>
>>>
>>>> project (e.g. like jumpstart) or take one and modify it to fit under a
>>>> particular
>>>> theme that gets developed throughout the book
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> +1 to find one single application that will be developed throughout the
>>> book. It should be hosted in some repository (SourceForge, java.net,
>>> etc).
>>> Maybe it could even be integrated as a Tapestry subproject.
>>>
>>> Here are a couple more outstanding and pesky issues that are still very
>>>
>>>
>>>> murky in my head :
>>>> 1. Would a book like this be published under some open source license
>>>> (e.g.I know that there are a couple of 'open source' books, e.g. the CVS
>>>> book the SVN book, etc) , maybe Creative commons ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> It would be really hard to define each contributor share in the profits,
>>> so
>>> I think some open license and proper credits would be a better fit. This
>>> would also attract more people to Tapestry 5, as there would be more free
>>> documentation in the internet about it.
>>>
>>> The open source book does not prevent a printed version of the book.
>>> 37signals, for example, sells the PDF and printed versions of ther
>>> Getting
>>> Real book, but it can be read for free in their website (
>>> http://gettingreal.37signals.com/). By the way, very interesting read.
>>> :)
>>>
>>> 2. How to make the decisions regarding a book's content ? Would it be
>>> some
>>>
>>>
>>>> voting involved ? E.g. if someone thinks a particular chapter should be
>>>> in
>>>> the book, and others don't agree, how to decide if the chapter is in the
>>>> book or no (here comes the concept of "committers" again)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Looking at several different projects , there are two main ways to
>>> organize
>>> a team:
>>> 1) Benevolent dictatorship. The team has a leader that listens to
>>> everybody, but he/she decides.
>>> 2) Straight democracy. We could (re)use the Apache model (my choice).
>>>
>>> 3. Can we continue using this T5 users list or discussions regarding the
>>>
>>>
>>>> book are a distraction ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> IMHO, the Tapestry users list is already used for two very different
>>> Tapestry versions, so we should open some other communication channel
>>> (forum, another mailing list, maybe a tapestry-book one).
>>>
>>> Another questions:
>>>
>>> 4) Would it only cover 1st party packages or 3rd party ones
>>> (t5components,
>>> chinellikit, etc) too?
>>>
>>> My first thoughts: yes, and the 3rd party packages would happily write
>>> about their creations. I would. :)
>>>
>>> 5) Would it also have a cookbook section or chapter?
>>>
>>> My answer: yes, and we could reuse the Tapestry wiki pages here. The book
>>> would then be something like a central place to find additional
>>> information,
>>> something similar to what the Hibernate document is.
>>>
>>> I'm really very positively surprised by the amount of feedback so far,
>>> and
>>>
>>>
>>>> I'm very curious to see how far we can take this. Please comment on any
>>>> of
>>>> the ideas above, rip me to shreds if you think this is the wrong way of
>>>> doing it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I second your words, Alex. This is going to be a really interesting
>>> project, involving people from many places around the world, having
>>> different first languages, different visions, but sharing the same goal:
>>> promoting our favorite Java web framework by writing a good book about
>>> it.
>>> :)
>>>
>>> Thiago
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Re: T5 : [ANN] The book - next steps
Posted by Alex Kotchnev <ak...@gmail.com>.
Tim,
regarding the application accompanying the book, I think that the first
chapter of the book doesn't necessarily have to have a full blown
application, fully completed with all bells and whistles. It only needs to
be good enough working application, that could have a "black blox" part that
would easily illustrate the points in the chapter. The idea is that each
chapter could possibly have a standalone application, each chapter at a
different stage of completion. The chapter's don't necessarily have to even
build on each other in terms of the application : e.g. the book could have a
"base" application (e.g. fully working T5/S/H app) and each chapter can
expand on a particular topic (e.g. components, pages, navigation, whatever),
not necessariy including the improvements from previous chapters (if the
previous chapter's improvements don't contribute anything to the discussion
in the current chapter).
I think the two ideas floated here (e.g. scope and topic organization I
very much like the idea of having a full app, de-emphasizing the
non-essential parts (e.g. like Spring / Hibernate) or just mentioning just
enough to make it understandable but referencing the respective reference
manuals for more details.
Regarding the possibility of making the book with such a structure that
it would be easy to jump around different chapters without following any
particular order , I don't think it would be very feasible. The point is
that accomplishing that would require quite a bit of discipline and
structure, which would be very difficult to achieve with a diverse group of
contributors. I'd think that a user who is advanced enough could still jump
around the book that was originally written to be read sequentially.
Cheers,
Alex Kotchnev
P.S. This is *really* the last post on the subject on this list, I'll
continue w/ the Google group.
On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 3:41 PM, Timothy Sweetser <transitauthority@gmail.com
> wrote:
> Ah, should clarify a point: I wasn't arguing for a completely
> unstructured environment, just one organized by scope and topic. Break
> it down, for example, into IoC Container, App-level Configuration and
> Processing, Pages, Components, Forms, Built-in Components, Integration
> with Hibernate/Spring/etc, Third-Party Components, and then have the
> users that are interested in contributing to a topic discuss and
> organize it into its various subtopics (via mailing list). Once a
> fairly clear picture of a section has been developed, that section and
> its subsections are opened up to the community, for existing content
> to be copied over and new content to be written.
>
> Timothy S.
>
> On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 1:04 PM, Don Ryan <do...@dit.ie> wrote:
> >
> > On 4 Sep 2008, at 17:05, Timothy Sweetser wrote:
> >
> >> When people only have an hour a day, and may only write a paragraph or
> >> two, I think that works against us. You decrease the contribution pool
> and
> >> increase the amount of effort required to get somewhere.
> >
> > That's a fair point. The sort of thing I was talking about may require
> more
> > central steering than is possible with piecemeal contributions from a
> large
> > group.
> >
> > That said, a mechanism already exists to collect isolated contributions
> on a
> > variety of topics from a wide range of people, namely the existing wiki.
> And
> > good luck to anyone trying to wrap a narrative structure around the
> > disparate collection of HOWTO-like snippets in your typical open-source
> > project wiki. The only kind of book that could result from such an
> exercise
> > would be one of those "cookbook"-style books, the ones that catalog a
> large
> > number of free-standing techniques. Perhaps pragmatism should dictate
> that
> > that is what is aimed for here.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Don.
> >
> > This message has been scanned for content and viruses by the DIT
> Information
> > Services E-Mail Scanning Service, and is believed to be clean.
> > http://www.dit.ie
> >
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> >
> >
>
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Re: T5 : [ANN] The book - next steps
Posted by Richard Clark <rd...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 4:29 PM, Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I would say that step 1 would be to collaborative design and implement
> the sample application. From that, the outline and division of tasks
> should be more attainable.
Let me second that :) When I was building programming courses (e.g.
for Apple), I always started by coming up with an example application.
The trick is to come up with something straightforward that also
reflects the key issues developers will face.
Off the top of my head, I'd look for something that is:
- Stateful (both in the session and between sessions)
- Content-oriented (possibly with a media database)
- Potentially multi-user
- Amenable to a AJAX-style UI
- Amenable to talking to an external system
- Interesting to the "Web 2.0" crowd
Some possible ideas are a RSS aggregator, a Tinderbox-like webapp (see
http://www.eastgate.com/Tinderbox/ ), a Digg clone, etc.
...Richard
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Re: T5 : [ANN] The book - next steps
Posted by Angelo Turetta <at...@bestunion.it>.
Howard Lewis Ship wrote:
> I would say that step 1 would be to collaborative design and implement
> the sample application. From that, the outline and division of tasks
> should be more attainable.
Oh, yes!
That would also make an excellent living tutorial (someone mentioned
PetStore; yes, something like that).
Angelo.
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Re: T5 : [ANN] The book - next steps
Posted by Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com>.
I would say that step 1 would be to collaborative design and implement
the sample application. From that, the outline and division of tasks
should be more attainable.
On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 10:04 AM, Don Ryan <do...@dit.ie> wrote:
>
> On 4 Sep 2008, at 17:05, Timothy Sweetser wrote:
>
>> When people only have an hour a day, and may only write a paragraph or
>> two, I think that works against us. You decrease the contribution pool and
>> increase the amount of effort required to get somewhere.
>
> That's a fair point. The sort of thing I was talking about may require more
> central steering than is possible with piecemeal contributions from a large
> group.
>
> That said, a mechanism already exists to collect isolated contributions on a
> variety of topics from a wide range of people, namely the existing wiki. And
> good luck to anyone trying to wrap a narrative structure around the
> disparate collection of HOWTO-like snippets in your typical open-source
> project wiki. The only kind of book that could result from such an exercise
> would be one of those "cookbook"-style books, the ones that catalog a large
> number of free-standing techniques. Perhaps pragmatism should dictate that
> that is what is aimed for here.
>
> Regards,
>
> Don.
>
> This message has been scanned for content and viruses by the DIT Information
> Services E-Mail Scanning Service, and is believed to be clean.
> http://www.dit.ie
>
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>
>
--
Howard M. Lewis Ship
Creator Apache Tapestry and Apache HiveMind
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Re: T5 : [ANN] The book - next steps
Posted by Timothy Sweetser <tr...@gmail.com>.
Ah, should clarify a point: I wasn't arguing for a completely
unstructured environment, just one organized by scope and topic. Break
it down, for example, into IoC Container, App-level Configuration and
Processing, Pages, Components, Forms, Built-in Components, Integration
with Hibernate/Spring/etc, Third-Party Components, and then have the
users that are interested in contributing to a topic discuss and
organize it into its various subtopics (via mailing list). Once a
fairly clear picture of a section has been developed, that section and
its subsections are opened up to the community, for existing content
to be copied over and new content to be written.
Timothy S.
On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 1:04 PM, Don Ryan <do...@dit.ie> wrote:
>
> On 4 Sep 2008, at 17:05, Timothy Sweetser wrote:
>
>> When people only have an hour a day, and may only write a paragraph or
>> two, I think that works against us. You decrease the contribution pool and
>> increase the amount of effort required to get somewhere.
>
> That's a fair point. The sort of thing I was talking about may require more
> central steering than is possible with piecemeal contributions from a large
> group.
>
> That said, a mechanism already exists to collect isolated contributions on a
> variety of topics from a wide range of people, namely the existing wiki. And
> good luck to anyone trying to wrap a narrative structure around the
> disparate collection of HOWTO-like snippets in your typical open-source
> project wiki. The only kind of book that could result from such an exercise
> would be one of those "cookbook"-style books, the ones that catalog a large
> number of free-standing techniques. Perhaps pragmatism should dictate that
> that is what is aimed for here.
>
> Regards,
>
> Don.
>
> This message has been scanned for content and viruses by the DIT Information
> Services E-Mail Scanning Service, and is believed to be clean.
> http://www.dit.ie
>
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>
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Re: T5 : [ANN] The book - next steps
Posted by Don Ryan <do...@dit.ie>.
On 4 Sep 2008, at 17:05, Timothy Sweetser wrote:
> When people only have an hour a day, and may only write a paragraph
> or two, I think that works against us. You decrease the
> contribution pool and increase the amount of effort required to get
> somewhere.
That's a fair point. The sort of thing I was talking about may
require more central steering than is possible with piecemeal
contributions from a large group.
That said, a mechanism already exists to collect isolated
contributions on a variety of topics from a wide range of people,
namely the existing wiki. And good luck to anyone trying to wrap a
narrative structure around the disparate collection of HOWTO-like
snippets in your typical open-source project wiki. The only kind of
book that could result from such an exercise would be one of those
"cookbook"-style books, the ones that catalog a large number of free-
standing techniques. Perhaps pragmatism should dictate that that is
what is aimed for here.
Regards,
Don.
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Re: T5 : [ANN] The book - next steps
Posted by Timothy Sweetser <tr...@gmail.com>.
The problem with building the book, from the start, around a working
application (or, vise versa, building an application during the course
of the book), in my mind, is that it requires far more cooperation and
coordination between the contributors. I don't think it really works
to the strengths of a collaborative, wiki-esque environment. It makes
it more difficult for new contributors to join in, since contributions
have to fit within a pre-defined narrative flow. You won't have people
specializing in one area or another, since bits and pieces of the
topic might be scattered throughout the book. And it increases the
overhead for existing contributors, because of the potential for
endless discussion on what should fit in where and how to improve the
book's flow or the application's scope. When people only have an hour
a day, and may only write a paragraph or two, I think that works
against us. You decrease the contribution pool and increase the amount
of effort required to get somewhere.
If, instead, we take on the role of researchers at this stage, just
breaking things down by scope and topic, then we're laying a strong
foundation for the best contributors to create the final product. You
minimize the amount of digging and fact-checking the "authors" will
have to make, while making it easy for anyone to contribute and
specialize. In the process, we identify the people best suited to the
task of forming that cohesive whole. It gets us off and running
quickly, while accounting for the need to eventually establish a
narrative, whatever form it might take. It's a less messy, albeit
probably longer, method for reaching the same goal, a method with, in
my opinion, a greater chance for success.
Timothy S.
On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 10:38 AM, Don Ryan <do...@dit.ie> wrote:
> The discussion here (knowingly or otherwise) mirrors something that comes up
> a lot when people are debating the pedagogical approaches in academia. A
> framework like Tapestry, which comes into its own on larger projects, is not
> served well by using toy examples to illustrate framework features. If the
> toy example is not something that anyone would ever do in the real world,
> it's essentially not a very good example.
>
> Many introductory approaches to software development feature examples with
> two or three classes and no persistence. In other words, an over-engineered
> solution that essentially achieves next-to-nothing, and is consequently
> unsatisfying to implement. A far better approach (along the lines of what
> Howard and Thiago have suggested) involves giving the students a working
> system to begin with, large parts of which are intended to be black boxes to
> them, and will remain black boxes even at the end of the course. Students
> deal very well with this.
>
> A variation on this approach (which might work well here), is that some
> parts of the system could be black boxes at the outset but the intent is to
> peer inside them at some later stage. So, for example, you could provide
> some custom components at the outset that would make the first cut
> implementation more satisying to the student. (Using custom components is
> identical to using built-in components from their perspective.) You could
> subsequently examine how some of the custom components are implemented and
> then move on to creating custom components from scratch.
>
> It is worth pointing out that the structure of such an approach is
> fundamentally different to the structure of a more traditional approach. The
> "chapters" would essentially be phases in a development project and the
> topics would be covered as a side-effect of being taken through each phase.
> Trying to label each "chapter" in terms of what topics are covered may not
> be entirely possible. So Timothy's suggestion of going ahead with "compiling
> and organizing information, and then later on creating the narrative
> structure" wouldn't really work here. Neither would such a book serve
> Patrick's objective of something you could easily peruse bits of. So it's
> swings and roundabouts so some extent. You do lose some things. But, in my
> humble opinion, you gain a vastly superior pedagogical approach. Added to
> that, you get a non-trivial demo application thrown in for free. (Whereas
> you can typically achieve much less in your standard last-chapter-of-book
> "case study", due to space constraints.)
>
> Regards,
>
> Don.
>
> P.S. Incidentally, these ideas have been around a long time. Some authors
> refer to is as an "inverted curriculum" in that you start with a working
> system rather than end up with one and that you interact with relatively
> complex objects first rather than start by building the nuts and bolts.
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Re: T5 : [ANN] The book - next steps
Posted by Don Ryan <do...@dit.ie>.
The discussion here (knowingly or otherwise) mirrors something that
comes up a lot when people are debating the pedagogical approaches in
academia. A framework like Tapestry, which comes into its own on
larger projects, is not served well by using toy examples to
illustrate framework features. If the toy example is not something
that anyone would ever do in the real world, it's essentially not a
very good example.
Many introductory approaches to software development feature examples
with two or three classes and no persistence. In other words, an over-
engineered solution that essentially achieves next-to-nothing, and is
consequently unsatisfying to implement. A far better approach (along
the lines of what Howard and Thiago have suggested) involves giving
the students a working system to begin with, large parts of which are
intended to be black boxes to them, and will remain black boxes even
at the end of the course. Students deal very well with this.
A variation on this approach (which might work well here), is that
some parts of the system could be black boxes at the outset but the
intent is to peer inside them at some later stage. So, for example,
you could provide some custom components at the outset that would
make the first cut implementation more satisying to the student.
(Using custom components is identical to using built-in components
from their perspective.) You could subsequently examine how some of
the custom components are implemented and then move on to creating
custom components from scratch.
It is worth pointing out that the structure of such an approach is
fundamentally different to the structure of a more traditional
approach. The "chapters" would essentially be phases in a development
project and the topics would be covered as a side-effect of being
taken through each phase. Trying to label each "chapter" in terms of
what topics are covered may not be entirely possible. So Timothy's
suggestion of going ahead with "compiling and organizing information,
and then later on creating the narrative structure" wouldn't really
work here. Neither would such a book serve Patrick's objective of
something you could easily peruse bits of. So it's swings and
roundabouts so some extent. You do lose some things. But, in my
humble opinion, you gain a vastly superior pedagogical approach.
Added to that, you get a non-trivial demo application thrown in for
free. (Whereas you can typically achieve much less in your standard
last-chapter-of-book "case study", due to space constraints.)
Regards,
Don.
P.S. Incidentally, these ideas have been around a long time. Some
authors refer to is as an "inverted curriculum" in that you start
with a working system rather than end up with one and that you
interact with relatively complex objects first rather than start by
building the nuts and bolts.
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Re: T5 : [ANN] The book - next steps
Posted by "Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo" <th...@gmail.com>.
Em Wed, 03 Sep 2008 18:44:06 -0300, Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com>
escreveu:
> So far, my experience has been to say "We're using Hibernate. It
> looks like this. Just play along for now." and that seems to work.
>
> I'm not teaching Hibernate, just explaining enough to satisfy the
> demands of the lab. And I think there's great value in the fact that
> the applications are "real". In the past, I wasted a lot of energy
> with "fake" in-memory databases. It's nice to know that data sticks
> from execution to execution, and that any related problems with
> integrating the database are present from day 1. I think this builds
> confidence in the students that the work their doing is useful.
In this cases, my approach is giving them a working persistence layer
already implemented in Hibernate and HSQLDB. So, they have a functional
database without worrying about that, just about Tapestry or Spring or
whatever is being taught.
Thiago
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Re: T5 : [ANN] The book - next steps
Posted by Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com>.
So far, my experience has been to say "We're using Hibernate. It
looks like this. Just play along for now." and that seems to work.
I'm not teaching Hibernate, just explaining enough to satisfy the
demands of the lab. And I think there's great value in the fact that
the applications are "real". In the past, I wasted a lot of energy
with "fake" in-memory databases. It's nice to know that data sticks
from execution to execution, and that any related problems with
integrating the database are present from day 1. I think this builds
confidence in the students that the work their doing is useful.
On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 11:55 AM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
<th...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Em Wed, 03 Sep 2008 15:31:05 -0300, ProAdmin Dariusz Dwornikowski
> <da...@proadmin.com.pl> escreveu:
>
>> Tapestry alone is no use if you do not have DB.
>
> As a instructor of Java, Hibernate, Spring and other frameworks, my
> experience says that people learn way better when they're learning just one
> thing, one concept, one feature at a time. Therefore, I think the book must
> focus in Tapestry and abstract away the persistence layer. In a later
> chapter, the book would show how to integrate Tapestry and Hibernate. In
> another chapter, the book would show a complete example of Tapestry +
> Hibernate + Spring.
>
> Thiago
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
--
Howard M. Lewis Ship
Creator Apache Tapestry and Apache HiveMind
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Re: T5 : [ANN] The book - next steps
Posted by Timothy Sweetser <tr...@gmail.com>.
Instead of debating the book's structure first, why don't we start out
by just breaking it down into the various topics and subtopics
(excluding introductions, tutorials, and "prolonged examples") and
working on them? From my perspective, the priority should be first on
compiling and organizing information, and then later on creating the
narrative structure that ties those individual topics together.
I'd think that, towards the end of the process, we'd have a select few
editors polishing the book. At some point we have to give someone that
responsibility or else it'll remain a wiki (essentially) forever, with
lots of people and lots of opinions on what direction the book should
go. The way I see it, we're responsible for providing the raw
materials, and once that snowball of information reaches critical
mass, we elect the best contributors to the job of creating the final
product. We're the researchers, providing the detailed information and
fact-checking, while the role of editor is reserved for the people who
shine the most during that researching process.
Very much an "IMO", but I believe it offers the best chance for
creating a cohesive and coherent end product.
Timothy
On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 3:01 PM, Patrick Moore <pa...@amplafi.com> wrote:
> I would suggest that you get a way from the linear, single path flow of
> writing book.
>
> I have stopped reading most technical books because they assume that I am a
> beginner and am going to read the book in a strictly serial manner.
>
> I would suggest that rather than be chapter focused that you be concept
> focused (1-2 pages) and provide different paths through the text. So someone
> who is on the "beginner" path will be lead through the book differently than
> someone who is an intermediate.
>
> -pat
>
> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 11:55 AM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo <
> thiagohp@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Em Wed, 03 Sep 2008 15:31:05 -0300, ProAdmin Dariusz Dwornikowski <
>> dariusz.dwornikowski@proadmin.com.pl> escreveu:
>>
>> Tapestry alone is no use if you do not have DB.
>>>
>>
>> As a instructor of Java, Hibernate, Spring and other frameworks, my
>> experience says that people learn way better when they're learning just one
>> thing, one concept, one feature at a time. Therefore, I think the book must
>> focus in Tapestry and abstract away the persistence layer. In a later
>> chapter, the book would show how to integrate Tapestry and Hibernate. In
>> another chapter, the book would show a complete example of Tapestry +
>> Hibernate + Spring.
>>
>>
>> Thiago
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>>
>>
>
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Re: T5 : [ANN] The book - next steps
Posted by Patrick Moore <pa...@amplafi.com>.
I would suggest that you get a way from the linear, single path flow of
writing book.
I have stopped reading most technical books because they assume that I am a
beginner and am going to read the book in a strictly serial manner.
I would suggest that rather than be chapter focused that you be concept
focused (1-2 pages) and provide different paths through the text. So someone
who is on the "beginner" path will be lead through the book differently than
someone who is an intermediate.
-pat
On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 11:55 AM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo <
thiagohp@gmail.com> wrote:
> Em Wed, 03 Sep 2008 15:31:05 -0300, ProAdmin Dariusz Dwornikowski <
> dariusz.dwornikowski@proadmin.com.pl> escreveu:
>
> Tapestry alone is no use if you do not have DB.
>>
>
> As a instructor of Java, Hibernate, Spring and other frameworks, my
> experience says that people learn way better when they're learning just one
> thing, one concept, one feature at a time. Therefore, I think the book must
> focus in Tapestry and abstract away the persistence layer. In a later
> chapter, the book would show how to integrate Tapestry and Hibernate. In
> another chapter, the book would show a complete example of Tapestry +
> Hibernate + Spring.
>
>
> Thiago
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
Re: T5 : [ANN] The book - next steps
Posted by "Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo" <th...@gmail.com>.
Em Wed, 03 Sep 2008 15:31:05 -0300, ProAdmin Dariusz Dwornikowski
<da...@proadmin.com.pl> escreveu:
> Tapestry alone is no use if you do not have DB.
As a instructor of Java, Hibernate, Spring and other frameworks, my
experience says that people learn way better when they're learning just
one thing, one concept, one feature at a time. Therefore, I think the book
must focus in Tapestry and abstract away the persistence layer. In a later
chapter, the book would show how to integrate Tapestry and Hibernate. In
another chapter, the book would show a complete example of Tapestry +
Hibernate + Spring.
Thiago
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RE: T5 : [ANN] The book - next steps
Posted by "Newham, Cameron" <ca...@bl.uk>.
Hear hear.
I too would love to see a complete application made from start to finish using T/S/H.
Something along the lines of what Howard suggested (but please - no "pet store"!)
I'm looking forward to seeing how this new book progresses.
C
-----Original Message-----
From: ProAdmin Dariusz Dwornikowski [mailto:dariusz.dwornikowski@proadmin.com.pl]
Sent: 03 September 2008 19:31
To: Tapestry users
Subject: Re: T5 : [ANN] The book - next steps
I really would love to see a walkthrough on making blog application in
tapestry5+spring+hibernate. Not only the integration, but how to implement
simple blog with it, design DAOs, where to put them etc. Tapestry alone is
no use if you do not have DB. In advanced topics I would like to see ex.
acegi integration, more ajax complex examples, own components etc. I find
examples very useful and most of people learn by examples very well.
That is my suggestion.
2008/9/3 Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com>
> Looked at the TOC.
>
> My thoughts on writing the book line up closely with how I've written
> the Tapestry Workshop. I can tell you that, in the Workshop, we are
> using Hibernate in the first session (the Workshop consists of themed
> sessions, with labs inside the session).
>
> In other words, focus on how people *use* Tapestry. Yes, not everyone
> will be using Hibernate, but people understand the gist of it, and
> regardless of solution (Cayanne, iBatis, craptaculous) people will be
> moving data between the DB and the app and probably representing that
> data as beans.
>
> The Workshop largely follows the evolution of a Tapestry app, a simple
> (limited) clone of Blogger. With each successive lab, we implement
> more and more of the application. There's very little hand waving,
> because people understand blogs and comments and such.
>
> The Workshop has the advantage that it's a complete working
> environment, with database up and running and pre-populated.
>
> The mistake I made in "Tapestry in Action" was thinking too much in
> terms of explaining what the framework does. I've learned a lot
> since then in terms of how to explain complex things, and part of it
> is to explore different solutions to a problem before coming to a
> conclusion.
>
> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 10:25 AM, Hugo Palma <hu...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Just an idea, maybe hosting the book on assembla (
> http://www.assembla.com)
> > would fit this project needs better.
> > I've used assembla with great success in the past, it has all the things
> we
> > need, an SVN repo, a forum, a chat room, an issue tracker, and more...
> >
> >
> > Alex Kotchnev wrote:
> >>
> >> I've created a new project for the proposed book at
> >> http://code.google.com/p/tapestry5-book , and posted the proposed table
> of
> >> contents at
> >> http://code.google.com/p/tapestry5-book/wiki/ProposedTableOfContents .
> Now
> >> that I'm looking at it, it's a little disappointing as the TOC doesn't
> >> really have anything new in it (e.g. some of it is covered in tutorials,
> >> other is in the project docs, etc). However, I guess that the content
> >> really
> >> can't be all that different - it's all about building web apps, covering
> >> the
> >> same materials as the other documentation. In the end, I think that the
> >> book
> >> will be different from the other existing documents based on its style
> and
> >> breadth of content, and not so much in the topics it covers.
> >>
> >> Anyway, I would like to create a mailing list and add everyone who has
> >> expressed an interest in contributing to the book. Unfortunately, Google
> >> Code doesn't have mailng lists, so I'll probably have to look around for
> >> that (Nabble, maybe?). Any suggestions would be welcome here.
> >>
> >> In terms of moving the proposed TOC forward, here are some of my next
> >> steps
> >> :
> >> 1. Attribute the main sections of the project documentation into
> possible
> >> chapters in the book.
> >> 2. Discuss feedback from this list on the content of the proposed TOC :
> >> e.g.
> >> any alternative ideas on how to organize the book, changes to the
> proposed
> >> chapter titles, order, etc.
> >>
> >> It would be great if there are any volunteers to investigate some of the
> >> issues that were discussed previously in the thread below, I'll probably
> >> post the needed tasks somewhere on the wiki as well.
> >>
> >> When we get our mailing list set up, I think that individuals or groups
> of
> >> individuals can claim ownership of each chapter (and thus get "voting
> >> rights" on the TOC, chapter layout, further modifications, etc.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Alex Kotchnev
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 4:59 AM, Hugo Palma <hu...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> inline
> >>>
> >>> Alex Kotchnev wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Would there be any value to having a top-level domain for the book
> (e.g.
> >>>> tapestry-book.org or something like that), or can we find it a home
> for
> >>>> the
> >>>> book somewhere under the Tapestry namespace ?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> A top-level domain should brink more visibility to the effort. Also, in
> >>> the
> >>> future we could probably spend some of the monetary payback to pay for
> >>> the
> >>> domain and some hosting solution so that we could include the live
> >>> version
> >>> of the book application and other cool stuff.
> >>> Still, for now i think we can live with a project on some project
> hosting
> >>> site where we can host the book files and wiki.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> A note on the potential mode for governing decisions : I was thinking
> >>>> that
> >>>> in the next couple of days, I'll post a list of possible chapters to
> >>>> include
> >>>> in the book. Then, we can collect a first set of volunteers for people
> >>>> take
> >>>> ownership of each chapter. After the initial set of volunteers, the
> >>>> chapter
> >>>> owners will vote on addition of new chapters and giving ownership of
> >>>> chapters to new contributors (if needed).
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Shouldn't the outline be already created in a tapestry-book wiki ?
> >>> We could decide on where to host it and then move the discussion to the
> >>> dedicated list and use its wiki for the outline.
> >>>
> >>> On whether the book would cover additional libraries (e.g.
> chennilekit,
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> t5components): I think that after we get to a good place where we have
> >>>> enough content on the core we can probably spend some time on those as
> >>>> well,
> >>>> possibly with contributions from the project owners. Conceptually, it
> >>>> would
> >>>> be impossible to include all 3rd party / contrib libraries in the book
> >>>> (or
> >>>> it will always be incomplete) . I guess my point is that I think we'd
> >>>> want
> >>>> to describe Tapestry and most essential additions (e.g. t5-hibernate,
> >>>> t5-spring, etc).
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> While it's true that if we go down the line of including third party
> >>> libraries it will always be incomplete and maybe unfair to some i think
> >>> it
> >>> would be important to cover the ones that we consider the most used. We
> >>> could go with a voting process where each one would say the top 2 or 3
> >>> third
> >>> party libraries in his opinion. The top 2 or 3 would get included in
> the
> >>> book.
> >>>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Alex Kotchnev
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 11:13 PM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo <
> >>>> thiagohp@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Em Tue, 26 Aug 2008 23:30:41 -0300, Alex Kotchnev <
> akochnev@gmail.com>
> >>>>> escreveu:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Here are a couple of the next steps that I think would be useful in
> >>>>> moving
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> the effort forward:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Nice! I was thinking of posting a similar set of questions here . . .
> >>>>> :)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1. Post a rough outline of the table of contents in the book
> >>>>> (initially,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> probably on the wiki).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> +1 I can't thing of another way of kicking off this project.
> >>>>> I just suggest another step: just start writing real content after
> >>>>> refining
> >>>>> the table of contents, thus avoiding some Frankensteinian results.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 2. Experiment somewhat w/ the publishing / collaboration
> methodology.
> >>>>> +1
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 3. One of my areas of concern is how the merging of xml/docbook
> would
> >>>>> work
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> in the long term. I know it's just text, but I'd imagine the
> doc-book
> >>>>>> project will probably have it's own way of editing content and
> >>>>>> converting
> >>>>>> it into docbook
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I always tend to prefer handwriting documents and code over tools (so
> >>>>> Howard's Tapestry 5, I guess :) and we could define some policies
> >>>>> related
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> use of tags, whitespace and maximum line length. I think the merging
> >>>>> problems would be reduced this way.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 5. I think it would be best if we use either an existing "examples"
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> project (e.g. like jumpstart) or take one and modify it to fit
> under
> >>>>>> a
> >>>>>> particular
> >>>>>> theme that gets developed throughout the book
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> +1 to find one single application that will be developed throughout
> the
> >>>>> book. It should be hosted in some repository (SourceForge, java.net,
> >>>>> etc).
> >>>>> Maybe it could even be integrated as a Tapestry subproject.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Here are a couple more outstanding and pesky issues that are still
> >>>>> very
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> murky in my head :
> >>>>>> 1. Would a book like this be published under some open source
> license
> >>>>>> (e.g.I know that there are a couple of 'open source' books, e.g. the
> >>>>>> CVS
> >>>>>> book the SVN book, etc) , maybe Creative commons ?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It would be really hard to define each contributor share in the
> >>>>> profits,
> >>>>> so
> >>>>> I think some open license and proper credits would be a better fit.
> >>>>> This
> >>>>> would also attract more people to Tapestry 5, as there would be more
> >>>>> free
> >>>>> documentation in the internet about it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The open source book does not prevent a printed version of the book.
> >>>>> 37signals, for example, sells the PDF and printed versions of ther
> >>>>> Getting
> >>>>> Real book, but it can be read for free in their website (
> >>>>> http://gettingreal.37signals.com/). By the way, very interesting
> read.
> >>>>> :)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 2. How to make the decisions regarding a book's content ? Would it
> be
> >>>>> some
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> voting involved ? E.g. if someone thinks a particular chapter should
> >>>>>> be
> >>>>>> in
> >>>>>> the book, and others don't agree, how to decide if the chapter is in
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> book or no (here comes the concept of "committers" again)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Looking at several different projects , there are two main ways to
> >>>>> organize
> >>>>> a team:
> >>>>> 1) Benevolent dictatorship. The team has a leader that listens to
> >>>>> everybody, but he/she decides.
> >>>>> 2) Straight democracy. We could (re)use the Apache model (my choice).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 3. Can we continue using this T5 users list or discussions regarding
> >>>>> the
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> book are a distraction ?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> IMHO, the Tapestry users list is already used for two very different
> >>>>> Tapestry versions, so we should open some other communication channel
> >>>>> (forum, another mailing list, maybe a tapestry-book one).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Another questions:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 4) Would it only cover 1st party packages or 3rd party ones
> >>>>> (t5components,
> >>>>> chinellikit, etc) too?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> My first thoughts: yes, and the 3rd party packages would happily
> write
> >>>>> about their creations. I would. :)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 5) Would it also have a cookbook section or chapter?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> My answer: yes, and we could reuse the Tapestry wiki pages here. The
> >>>>> book
> >>>>> would then be something like a central place to find additional
> >>>>> information,
> >>>>> something similar to what the Hibernate document is.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm really very positively surprised by the amount of feedback so
> far,
> >>>>> and
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I'm very curious to see how far we can take this. Please comment on
> >>>>>> any
> >>>>>> of
> >>>>>> the ideas above, rip me to shreds if you think this is the wrong way
> >>>>>> of
> >>>>>> doing it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I second your words, Alex. This is going to be a really interesting
> >>>>> project, involving people from many places around the world, having
> >>>>> different first languages, different visions, but sharing the same
> >>>>> goal:
> >>>>> promoting our favorite Java web framework by writing a good book
> about
> >>>>> it.
> >>>>> :)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thiago
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> >>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Howard M. Lewis Ship
>
> Creator Apache Tapestry and Apache HiveMind
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
--
Pozdrawiam,
Dariusz Dwornikowski
------------------------------------
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Re: T5 : [ANN] The book - next steps
Posted by ProAdmin Dariusz Dwornikowski <da...@proadmin.com.pl>.
I really would love to see a walkthrough on making blog application in
tapestry5+spring+hibernate. Not only the integration, but how to implement
simple blog with it, design DAOs, where to put them etc. Tapestry alone is
no use if you do not have DB. In advanced topics I would like to see ex.
acegi integration, more ajax complex examples, own components etc. I find
examples very useful and most of people learn by examples very well.
That is my suggestion.
2008/9/3 Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com>
> Looked at the TOC.
>
> My thoughts on writing the book line up closely with how I've written
> the Tapestry Workshop. I can tell you that, in the Workshop, we are
> using Hibernate in the first session (the Workshop consists of themed
> sessions, with labs inside the session).
>
> In other words, focus on how people *use* Tapestry. Yes, not everyone
> will be using Hibernate, but people understand the gist of it, and
> regardless of solution (Cayanne, iBatis, craptaculous) people will be
> moving data between the DB and the app and probably representing that
> data as beans.
>
> The Workshop largely follows the evolution of a Tapestry app, a simple
> (limited) clone of Blogger. With each successive lab, we implement
> more and more of the application. There's very little hand waving,
> because people understand blogs and comments and such.
>
> The Workshop has the advantage that it's a complete working
> environment, with database up and running and pre-populated.
>
> The mistake I made in "Tapestry in Action" was thinking too much in
> terms of explaining what the framework does. I've learned a lot
> since then in terms of how to explain complex things, and part of it
> is to explore different solutions to a problem before coming to a
> conclusion.
>
> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 10:25 AM, Hugo Palma <hu...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Just an idea, maybe hosting the book on assembla (
> http://www.assembla.com)
> > would fit this project needs better.
> > I've used assembla with great success in the past, it has all the things
> we
> > need, an SVN repo, a forum, a chat room, an issue tracker, and more...
> >
> >
> > Alex Kotchnev wrote:
> >>
> >> I've created a new project for the proposed book at
> >> http://code.google.com/p/tapestry5-book , and posted the proposed table
> of
> >> contents at
> >> http://code.google.com/p/tapestry5-book/wiki/ProposedTableOfContents .
> Now
> >> that I'm looking at it, it's a little disappointing as the TOC doesn't
> >> really have anything new in it (e.g. some of it is covered in tutorials,
> >> other is in the project docs, etc). However, I guess that the content
> >> really
> >> can't be all that different - it's all about building web apps, covering
> >> the
> >> same materials as the other documentation. In the end, I think that the
> >> book
> >> will be different from the other existing documents based on its style
> and
> >> breadth of content, and not so much in the topics it covers.
> >>
> >> Anyway, I would like to create a mailing list and add everyone who has
> >> expressed an interest in contributing to the book. Unfortunately, Google
> >> Code doesn't have mailng lists, so I'll probably have to look around for
> >> that (Nabble, maybe?). Any suggestions would be welcome here.
> >>
> >> In terms of moving the proposed TOC forward, here are some of my next
> >> steps
> >> :
> >> 1. Attribute the main sections of the project documentation into
> possible
> >> chapters in the book.
> >> 2. Discuss feedback from this list on the content of the proposed TOC :
> >> e.g.
> >> any alternative ideas on how to organize the book, changes to the
> proposed
> >> chapter titles, order, etc.
> >>
> >> It would be great if there are any volunteers to investigate some of the
> >> issues that were discussed previously in the thread below, I'll probably
> >> post the needed tasks somewhere on the wiki as well.
> >>
> >> When we get our mailing list set up, I think that individuals or groups
> of
> >> individuals can claim ownership of each chapter (and thus get "voting
> >> rights" on the TOC, chapter layout, further modifications, etc.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Alex Kotchnev
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 4:59 AM, Hugo Palma <hu...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> inline
> >>>
> >>> Alex Kotchnev wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Would there be any value to having a top-level domain for the book
> (e.g.
> >>>> tapestry-book.org or something like that), or can we find it a home
> for
> >>>> the
> >>>> book somewhere under the Tapestry namespace ?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> A top-level domain should brink more visibility to the effort. Also, in
> >>> the
> >>> future we could probably spend some of the monetary payback to pay for
> >>> the
> >>> domain and some hosting solution so that we could include the live
> >>> version
> >>> of the book application and other cool stuff.
> >>> Still, for now i think we can live with a project on some project
> hosting
> >>> site where we can host the book files and wiki.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> A note on the potential mode for governing decisions : I was thinking
> >>>> that
> >>>> in the next couple of days, I'll post a list of possible chapters to
> >>>> include
> >>>> in the book. Then, we can collect a first set of volunteers for people
> >>>> take
> >>>> ownership of each chapter. After the initial set of volunteers, the
> >>>> chapter
> >>>> owners will vote on addition of new chapters and giving ownership of
> >>>> chapters to new contributors (if needed).
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Shouldn't the outline be already created in a tapestry-book wiki ?
> >>> We could decide on where to host it and then move the discussion to the
> >>> dedicated list and use its wiki for the outline.
> >>>
> >>> On whether the book would cover additional libraries (e.g.
> chennilekit,
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> t5components): I think that after we get to a good place where we have
> >>>> enough content on the core we can probably spend some time on those as
> >>>> well,
> >>>> possibly with contributions from the project owners. Conceptually, it
> >>>> would
> >>>> be impossible to include all 3rd party / contrib libraries in the book
> >>>> (or
> >>>> it will always be incomplete) . I guess my point is that I think we'd
> >>>> want
> >>>> to describe Tapestry and most essential additions (e.g. t5-hibernate,
> >>>> t5-spring, etc).
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> While it's true that if we go down the line of including third party
> >>> libraries it will always be incomplete and maybe unfair to some i think
> >>> it
> >>> would be important to cover the ones that we consider the most used. We
> >>> could go with a voting process where each one would say the top 2 or 3
> >>> third
> >>> party libraries in his opinion. The top 2 or 3 would get included in
> the
> >>> book.
> >>>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Alex Kotchnev
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 11:13 PM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo <
> >>>> thiagohp@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Em Tue, 26 Aug 2008 23:30:41 -0300, Alex Kotchnev <
> akochnev@gmail.com>
> >>>>> escreveu:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Here are a couple of the next steps that I think would be useful in
> >>>>> moving
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> the effort forward:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Nice! I was thinking of posting a similar set of questions here . . .
> >>>>> :)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1. Post a rough outline of the table of contents in the book
> >>>>> (initially,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> probably on the wiki).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> +1 I can't thing of another way of kicking off this project.
> >>>>> I just suggest another step: just start writing real content after
> >>>>> refining
> >>>>> the table of contents, thus avoiding some Frankensteinian results.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 2. Experiment somewhat w/ the publishing / collaboration
> methodology.
> >>>>> +1
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 3. One of my areas of concern is how the merging of xml/docbook
> would
> >>>>> work
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> in the long term. I know it's just text, but I'd imagine the
> doc-book
> >>>>>> project will probably have it's own way of editing content and
> >>>>>> converting
> >>>>>> it into docbook
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I always tend to prefer handwriting documents and code over tools (so
> >>>>> Howard's Tapestry 5, I guess :) and we could define some policies
> >>>>> related
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> use of tags, whitespace and maximum line length. I think the merging
> >>>>> problems would be reduced this way.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 5. I think it would be best if we use either an existing "examples"
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> project (e.g. like jumpstart) or take one and modify it to fit
> under
> >>>>>> a
> >>>>>> particular
> >>>>>> theme that gets developed throughout the book
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> +1 to find one single application that will be developed throughout
> the
> >>>>> book. It should be hosted in some repository (SourceForge, java.net,
> >>>>> etc).
> >>>>> Maybe it could even be integrated as a Tapestry subproject.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Here are a couple more outstanding and pesky issues that are still
> >>>>> very
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> murky in my head :
> >>>>>> 1. Would a book like this be published under some open source
> license
> >>>>>> (e.g.I know that there are a couple of 'open source' books, e.g. the
> >>>>>> CVS
> >>>>>> book the SVN book, etc) , maybe Creative commons ?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It would be really hard to define each contributor share in the
> >>>>> profits,
> >>>>> so
> >>>>> I think some open license and proper credits would be a better fit.
> >>>>> This
> >>>>> would also attract more people to Tapestry 5, as there would be more
> >>>>> free
> >>>>> documentation in the internet about it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The open source book does not prevent a printed version of the book.
> >>>>> 37signals, for example, sells the PDF and printed versions of ther
> >>>>> Getting
> >>>>> Real book, but it can be read for free in their website (
> >>>>> http://gettingreal.37signals.com/). By the way, very interesting
> read.
> >>>>> :)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 2. How to make the decisions regarding a book's content ? Would it
> be
> >>>>> some
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> voting involved ? E.g. if someone thinks a particular chapter should
> >>>>>> be
> >>>>>> in
> >>>>>> the book, and others don't agree, how to decide if the chapter is in
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> book or no (here comes the concept of "committers" again)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Looking at several different projects , there are two main ways to
> >>>>> organize
> >>>>> a team:
> >>>>> 1) Benevolent dictatorship. The team has a leader that listens to
> >>>>> everybody, but he/she decides.
> >>>>> 2) Straight democracy. We could (re)use the Apache model (my choice).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 3. Can we continue using this T5 users list or discussions regarding
> >>>>> the
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> book are a distraction ?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> IMHO, the Tapestry users list is already used for two very different
> >>>>> Tapestry versions, so we should open some other communication channel
> >>>>> (forum, another mailing list, maybe a tapestry-book one).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Another questions:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 4) Would it only cover 1st party packages or 3rd party ones
> >>>>> (t5components,
> >>>>> chinellikit, etc) too?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> My first thoughts: yes, and the 3rd party packages would happily
> write
> >>>>> about their creations. I would. :)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 5) Would it also have a cookbook section or chapter?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> My answer: yes, and we could reuse the Tapestry wiki pages here. The
> >>>>> book
> >>>>> would then be something like a central place to find additional
> >>>>> information,
> >>>>> something similar to what the Hibernate document is.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm really very positively surprised by the amount of feedback so
> far,
> >>>>> and
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I'm very curious to see how far we can take this. Please comment on
> >>>>>> any
> >>>>>> of
> >>>>>> the ideas above, rip me to shreds if you think this is the wrong way
> >>>>>> of
> >>>>>> doing it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I second your words, Alex. This is going to be a really interesting
> >>>>> project, involving people from many places around the world, having
> >>>>> different first languages, different visions, but sharing the same
> >>>>> goal:
> >>>>> promoting our favorite Java web framework by writing a good book
> about
> >>>>> it.
> >>>>> :)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thiago
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> >>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Howard M. Lewis Ship
>
> Creator Apache Tapestry and Apache HiveMind
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
--
Pozdrawiam,
Dariusz Dwornikowski
------------------------------------
ProAdmin
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tel: 061 623-20-92
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www.proadmin.com.pl
dariusz.dwornikowski@proadmin.com.pl
Re: T5 : [ANN] The book - next steps
Posted by Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com>.
Looked at the TOC.
My thoughts on writing the book line up closely with how I've written
the Tapestry Workshop. I can tell you that, in the Workshop, we are
using Hibernate in the first session (the Workshop consists of themed
sessions, with labs inside the session).
In other words, focus on how people *use* Tapestry. Yes, not everyone
will be using Hibernate, but people understand the gist of it, and
regardless of solution (Cayanne, iBatis, craptaculous) people will be
moving data between the DB and the app and probably representing that
data as beans.
The Workshop largely follows the evolution of a Tapestry app, a simple
(limited) clone of Blogger. With each successive lab, we implement
more and more of the application. There's very little hand waving,
because people understand blogs and comments and such.
The Workshop has the advantage that it's a complete working
environment, with database up and running and pre-populated.
The mistake I made in "Tapestry in Action" was thinking too much in
terms of explaining what the framework does. I've learned a lot
since then in terms of how to explain complex things, and part of it
is to explore different solutions to a problem before coming to a
conclusion.
On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 10:25 AM, Hugo Palma <hu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just an idea, maybe hosting the book on assembla (http://www.assembla.com)
> would fit this project needs better.
> I've used assembla with great success in the past, it has all the things we
> need, an SVN repo, a forum, a chat room, an issue tracker, and more...
>
>
> Alex Kotchnev wrote:
>>
>> I've created a new project for the proposed book at
>> http://code.google.com/p/tapestry5-book , and posted the proposed table of
>> contents at
>> http://code.google.com/p/tapestry5-book/wiki/ProposedTableOfContents . Now
>> that I'm looking at it, it's a little disappointing as the TOC doesn't
>> really have anything new in it (e.g. some of it is covered in tutorials,
>> other is in the project docs, etc). However, I guess that the content
>> really
>> can't be all that different - it's all about building web apps, covering
>> the
>> same materials as the other documentation. In the end, I think that the
>> book
>> will be different from the other existing documents based on its style and
>> breadth of content, and not so much in the topics it covers.
>>
>> Anyway, I would like to create a mailing list and add everyone who has
>> expressed an interest in contributing to the book. Unfortunately, Google
>> Code doesn't have mailng lists, so I'll probably have to look around for
>> that (Nabble, maybe?). Any suggestions would be welcome here.
>>
>> In terms of moving the proposed TOC forward, here are some of my next
>> steps
>> :
>> 1. Attribute the main sections of the project documentation into possible
>> chapters in the book.
>> 2. Discuss feedback from this list on the content of the proposed TOC :
>> e.g.
>> any alternative ideas on how to organize the book, changes to the proposed
>> chapter titles, order, etc.
>>
>> It would be great if there are any volunteers to investigate some of the
>> issues that were discussed previously in the thread below, I'll probably
>> post the needed tasks somewhere on the wiki as well.
>>
>> When we get our mailing list set up, I think that individuals or groups of
>> individuals can claim ownership of each chapter (and thus get "voting
>> rights" on the TOC, chapter layout, further modifications, etc.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Alex Kotchnev
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 4:59 AM, Hugo Palma <hu...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> inline
>>>
>>> Alex Kotchnev wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Would there be any value to having a top-level domain for the book (e.g.
>>>> tapestry-book.org or something like that), or can we find it a home for
>>>> the
>>>> book somewhere under the Tapestry namespace ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> A top-level domain should brink more visibility to the effort. Also, in
>>> the
>>> future we could probably spend some of the monetary payback to pay for
>>> the
>>> domain and some hosting solution so that we could include the live
>>> version
>>> of the book application and other cool stuff.
>>> Still, for now i think we can live with a project on some project hosting
>>> site where we can host the book files and wiki.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> A note on the potential mode for governing decisions : I was thinking
>>>> that
>>>> in the next couple of days, I'll post a list of possible chapters to
>>>> include
>>>> in the book. Then, we can collect a first set of volunteers for people
>>>> take
>>>> ownership of each chapter. After the initial set of volunteers, the
>>>> chapter
>>>> owners will vote on addition of new chapters and giving ownership of
>>>> chapters to new contributors (if needed).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Shouldn't the outline be already created in a tapestry-book wiki ?
>>> We could decide on where to host it and then move the discussion to the
>>> dedicated list and use its wiki for the outline.
>>>
>>> On whether the book would cover additional libraries (e.g. chennilekit,
>>>
>>>>
>>>> t5components): I think that after we get to a good place where we have
>>>> enough content on the core we can probably spend some time on those as
>>>> well,
>>>> possibly with contributions from the project owners. Conceptually, it
>>>> would
>>>> be impossible to include all 3rd party / contrib libraries in the book
>>>> (or
>>>> it will always be incomplete) . I guess my point is that I think we'd
>>>> want
>>>> to describe Tapestry and most essential additions (e.g. t5-hibernate,
>>>> t5-spring, etc).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> While it's true that if we go down the line of including third party
>>> libraries it will always be incomplete and maybe unfair to some i think
>>> it
>>> would be important to cover the ones that we consider the most used. We
>>> could go with a voting process where each one would say the top 2 or 3
>>> third
>>> party libraries in his opinion. The top 2 or 3 would get included in the
>>> book.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Alex Kotchnev
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 11:13 PM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo <
>>>> thiagohp@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Em Tue, 26 Aug 2008 23:30:41 -0300, Alex Kotchnev <ak...@gmail.com>
>>>>> escreveu:
>>>>>
>>>>> Here are a couple of the next steps that I think would be useful in
>>>>> moving
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the effort forward:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Nice! I was thinking of posting a similar set of questions here . . .
>>>>> :)
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Post a rough outline of the table of contents in the book
>>>>> (initially,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> probably on the wiki).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> +1 I can't thing of another way of kicking off this project.
>>>>> I just suggest another step: just start writing real content after
>>>>> refining
>>>>> the table of contents, thus avoiding some Frankensteinian results.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. Experiment somewhat w/ the publishing / collaboration methodology.
>>>>> +1
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. One of my areas of concern is how the merging of xml/docbook would
>>>>> work
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> in the long term. I know it's just text, but I'd imagine the doc-book
>>>>>> project will probably have it's own way of editing content and
>>>>>> converting
>>>>>> it into docbook
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I always tend to prefer handwriting documents and code over tools (so
>>>>> Howard's Tapestry 5, I guess :) and we could define some policies
>>>>> related
>>>>> to
>>>>> use of tags, whitespace and maximum line length. I think the merging
>>>>> problems would be reduced this way.
>>>>>
>>>>> 5. I think it would be best if we use either an existing "examples"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> project (e.g. like jumpstart) or take one and modify it to fit under
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> particular
>>>>>> theme that gets developed throughout the book
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> +1 to find one single application that will be developed throughout the
>>>>> book. It should be hosted in some repository (SourceForge, java.net,
>>>>> etc).
>>>>> Maybe it could even be integrated as a Tapestry subproject.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here are a couple more outstanding and pesky issues that are still
>>>>> very
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> murky in my head :
>>>>>> 1. Would a book like this be published under some open source license
>>>>>> (e.g.I know that there are a couple of 'open source' books, e.g. the
>>>>>> CVS
>>>>>> book the SVN book, etc) , maybe Creative commons ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It would be really hard to define each contributor share in the
>>>>> profits,
>>>>> so
>>>>> I think some open license and proper credits would be a better fit.
>>>>> This
>>>>> would also attract more people to Tapestry 5, as there would be more
>>>>> free
>>>>> documentation in the internet about it.
>>>>>
>>>>> The open source book does not prevent a printed version of the book.
>>>>> 37signals, for example, sells the PDF and printed versions of ther
>>>>> Getting
>>>>> Real book, but it can be read for free in their website (
>>>>> http://gettingreal.37signals.com/). By the way, very interesting read.
>>>>> :)
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. How to make the decisions regarding a book's content ? Would it be
>>>>> some
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> voting involved ? E.g. if someone thinks a particular chapter should
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> the book, and others don't agree, how to decide if the chapter is in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> book or no (here comes the concept of "committers" again)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Looking at several different projects , there are two main ways to
>>>>> organize
>>>>> a team:
>>>>> 1) Benevolent dictatorship. The team has a leader that listens to
>>>>> everybody, but he/she decides.
>>>>> 2) Straight democracy. We could (re)use the Apache model (my choice).
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. Can we continue using this T5 users list or discussions regarding
>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> book are a distraction ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> IMHO, the Tapestry users list is already used for two very different
>>>>> Tapestry versions, so we should open some other communication channel
>>>>> (forum, another mailing list, maybe a tapestry-book one).
>>>>>
>>>>> Another questions:
>>>>>
>>>>> 4) Would it only cover 1st party packages or 3rd party ones
>>>>> (t5components,
>>>>> chinellikit, etc) too?
>>>>>
>>>>> My first thoughts: yes, and the 3rd party packages would happily write
>>>>> about their creations. I would. :)
>>>>>
>>>>> 5) Would it also have a cookbook section or chapter?
>>>>>
>>>>> My answer: yes, and we could reuse the Tapestry wiki pages here. The
>>>>> book
>>>>> would then be something like a central place to find additional
>>>>> information,
>>>>> something similar to what the Hibernate document is.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm really very positively surprised by the amount of feedback so far,
>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm very curious to see how far we can take this. Please comment on
>>>>>> any
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the ideas above, rip me to shreds if you think this is the wrong way
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> doing it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I second your words, Alex. This is going to be a really interesting
>>>>> project, involving people from many places around the world, having
>>>>> different first languages, different visions, but sharing the same
>>>>> goal:
>>>>> promoting our favorite Java web framework by writing a good book about
>>>>> it.
>>>>> :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Thiago
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>
--
Howard M. Lewis Ship
Creator Apache Tapestry and Apache HiveMind
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
Re: T5 : [ANN] The book - next steps
Posted by Alex Kotchnev <ak...@gmail.com>.
Just to wrap up the initial discussion on this thread, I'll respond here.
Any future discussion should probably occur on the Google Groups.
I've taken a liking to BitBucket (http://www.bitbucket.org/), which is quite
similar to what assemla seems to offer, but also has Mercurial repository,
which I think would be very useful in this project. Since the Google Code
project only seems to support Subversion, although it wouldn't be the
primary repo for the code, we can set up some regular code drops.
Cheers,
Alex K
On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 1:25 PM, Hugo Palma <hu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just an idea, maybe hosting the book on assembla (http://www.assembla.com)
> would fit this project needs better.
> I've used assembla with great success in the past, it has all the things we
> need, an SVN repo, a forum, a chat room, an issue tracker, and more...
>
>
>
> Alex Kotchnev wrote:
>
>> I've created a new project for the proposed book at
>> http://code.google.com/p/tapestry5-book , and posted the proposed table
>> of
>> contents at
>> http://code.google.com/p/tapestry5-book/wiki/ProposedTableOfContents .
>> Now
>> that I'm looking at it, it's a little disappointing as the TOC doesn't
>> really have anything new in it (e.g. some of it is covered in tutorials,
>> other is in the project docs, etc). However, I guess that the content
>> really
>> can't be all that different - it's all about building web apps, covering
>> the
>> same materials as the other documentation. In the end, I think that the
>> book
>> will be different from the other existing documents based on its style and
>> breadth of content, and not so much in the topics it covers.
>>
>> Anyway, I would like to create a mailing list and add everyone who has
>> expressed an interest in contributing to the book. Unfortunately, Google
>> Code doesn't have mailng lists, so I'll probably have to look around for
>> that (Nabble, maybe?). Any suggestions would be welcome here.
>>
>> In terms of moving the proposed TOC forward, here are some of my next
>> steps
>> :
>> 1. Attribute the main sections of the project documentation into possible
>> chapters in the book.
>> 2. Discuss feedback from this list on the content of the proposed TOC :
>> e.g.
>> any alternative ideas on how to organize the book, changes to the proposed
>> chapter titles, order, etc.
>>
>> It would be great if there are any volunteers to investigate some of the
>> issues that were discussed previously in the thread below, I'll probably
>> post the needed tasks somewhere on the wiki as well.
>>
>> When we get our mailing list set up, I think that individuals or groups of
>> individuals can claim ownership of each chapter (and thus get "voting
>> rights" on the TOC, chapter layout, further modifications, etc.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Alex Kotchnev
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 4:59 AM, Hugo Palma <hu...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> inline
>>>
>>> Alex Kotchnev wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Would there be any value to having a top-level domain for the book (e.g.
>>>> tapestry-book.org or something like that), or can we find it a home for
>>>> the
>>>> book somewhere under the Tapestry namespace ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> A top-level domain should brink more visibility to the effort. Also, in
>>> the
>>> future we could probably spend some of the monetary payback to pay for
>>> the
>>> domain and some hosting solution so that we could include the live
>>> version
>>> of the book application and other cool stuff.
>>> Still, for now i think we can live with a project on some project hosting
>>> site where we can host the book files and wiki.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> A note on the potential mode for governing decisions : I was thinking
>>>> that
>>>> in the next couple of days, I'll post a list of possible chapters to
>>>> include
>>>> in the book. Then, we can collect a first set of volunteers for people
>>>> take
>>>> ownership of each chapter. After the initial set of volunteers, the
>>>> chapter
>>>> owners will vote on addition of new chapters and giving ownership of
>>>> chapters to new contributors (if needed).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Shouldn't the outline be already created in a tapestry-book wiki ?
>>> We could decide on where to host it and then move the discussion to the
>>> dedicated list and use its wiki for the outline.
>>>
>>> On whether the book would cover additional libraries (e.g. chennilekit,
>>>
>>>
>>>> t5components): I think that after we get to a good place where we have
>>>> enough content on the core we can probably spend some time on those as
>>>> well,
>>>> possibly with contributions from the project owners. Conceptually, it
>>>> would
>>>> be impossible to include all 3rd party / contrib libraries in the book
>>>> (or
>>>> it will always be incomplete) . I guess my point is that I think we'd
>>>> want
>>>> to describe Tapestry and most essential additions (e.g. t5-hibernate,
>>>> t5-spring, etc).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> While it's true that if we go down the line of including third party
>>> libraries it will always be incomplete and maybe unfair to some i think
>>> it
>>> would be important to cover the ones that we consider the most used. We
>>> could go with a voting process where each one would say the top 2 or 3
>>> third
>>> party libraries in his opinion. The top 2 or 3 would get included in the
>>> book.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>>
>>>> Alex Kotchnev
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 11:13 PM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo <
>>>> thiagohp@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Em Tue, 26 Aug 2008 23:30:41 -0300, Alex Kotchnev <ak...@gmail.com>
>>>>> escreveu:
>>>>>
>>>>> Here are a couple of the next steps that I think would be useful in
>>>>> moving
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> the effort forward:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Nice! I was thinking of posting a similar set of questions here . . .
>>>>> :)
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Post a rough outline of the table of contents in the book
>>>>> (initially,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> probably on the wiki).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> +1 I can't thing of another way of kicking off this project.
>>>>> I just suggest another step: just start writing real content after
>>>>> refining
>>>>> the table of contents, thus avoiding some Frankensteinian results.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. Experiment somewhat w/ the publishing / collaboration methodology.
>>>>> +1
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. One of my areas of concern is how the merging of xml/docbook would
>>>>> work
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> in the long term. I know it's just text, but I'd imagine the doc-book
>>>>>> project will probably have it's own way of editing content and
>>>>>> converting
>>>>>> it into docbook
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I always tend to prefer handwriting documents and code over tools (so
>>>>> Howard's Tapestry 5, I guess :) and we could define some policies
>>>>> related
>>>>> to
>>>>> use of tags, whitespace and maximum line length. I think the merging
>>>>> problems would be reduced this way.
>>>>>
>>>>> 5. I think it would be best if we use either an existing "examples"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> project (e.g. like jumpstart) or take one and modify it to fit under
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> particular
>>>>>> theme that gets developed throughout the book
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> +1 to find one single application that will be developed throughout the
>>>>> book. It should be hosted in some repository (SourceForge, java.net,
>>>>> etc).
>>>>> Maybe it could even be integrated as a Tapestry subproject.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here are a couple more outstanding and pesky issues that are still
>>>>> very
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> murky in my head :
>>>>>> 1. Would a book like this be published under some open source license
>>>>>> (e.g.I know that there are a couple of 'open source' books, e.g. the
>>>>>> CVS
>>>>>> book the SVN book, etc) , maybe Creative commons ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> It would be really hard to define each contributor share in the
>>>>> profits,
>>>>> so
>>>>> I think some open license and proper credits would be a better fit.
>>>>> This
>>>>> would also attract more people to Tapestry 5, as there would be more
>>>>> free
>>>>> documentation in the internet about it.
>>>>>
>>>>> The open source book does not prevent a printed version of the book.
>>>>> 37signals, for example, sells the PDF and printed versions of ther
>>>>> Getting
>>>>> Real book, but it can be read for free in their website (
>>>>> http://gettingreal.37signals.com/). By the way, very interesting read.
>>>>> :)
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. How to make the decisions regarding a book's content ? Would it be
>>>>> some
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> voting involved ? E.g. if someone thinks a particular chapter should
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> the book, and others don't agree, how to decide if the chapter is in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> book or no (here comes the concept of "committers" again)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Looking at several different projects , there are two main ways to
>>>>> organize
>>>>> a team:
>>>>> 1) Benevolent dictatorship. The team has a leader that listens to
>>>>> everybody, but he/she decides.
>>>>> 2) Straight democracy. We could (re)use the Apache model (my choice).
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. Can we continue using this T5 users list or discussions regarding
>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> book are a distraction ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> IMHO, the Tapestry users list is already used for two very different
>>>>> Tapestry versions, so we should open some other communication channel
>>>>> (forum, another mailing list, maybe a tapestry-book one).
>>>>>
>>>>> Another questions:
>>>>>
>>>>> 4) Would it only cover 1st party packages or 3rd party ones
>>>>> (t5components,
>>>>> chinellikit, etc) too?
>>>>>
>>>>> My first thoughts: yes, and the 3rd party packages would happily write
>>>>> about their creations. I would. :)
>>>>>
>>>>> 5) Would it also have a cookbook section or chapter?
>>>>>
>>>>> My answer: yes, and we could reuse the Tapestry wiki pages here. The
>>>>> book
>>>>> would then be something like a central place to find additional
>>>>> information,
>>>>> something similar to what the Hibernate document is.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm really very positively surprised by the amount of feedback so far,
>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm very curious to see how far we can take this. Please comment on
>>>>>> any
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the ideas above, rip me to shreds if you think this is the wrong way
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> doing it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I second your words, Alex. This is going to be a really interesting
>>>>> project, involving people from many places around the world, having
>>>>> different first languages, different visions, but sharing the same
>>>>> goal:
>>>>> promoting our favorite Java web framework by writing a good book about
>>>>> it.
>>>>> :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Thiago
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
Re: T5 : [ANN] The book - next steps
Posted by Hugo Palma <hu...@gmail.com>.
Just an idea, maybe hosting the book on assembla
(http://www.assembla.com) would fit this project needs better.
I've used assembla with great success in the past, it has all the things
we need, an SVN repo, a forum, a chat room, an issue tracker, and more...
Alex Kotchnev wrote:
> I've created a new project for the proposed book at
> http://code.google.com/p/tapestry5-book , and posted the proposed table of
> contents at
> http://code.google.com/p/tapestry5-book/wiki/ProposedTableOfContents . Now
> that I'm looking at it, it's a little disappointing as the TOC doesn't
> really have anything new in it (e.g. some of it is covered in tutorials,
> other is in the project docs, etc). However, I guess that the content really
> can't be all that different - it's all about building web apps, covering the
> same materials as the other documentation. In the end, I think that the book
> will be different from the other existing documents based on its style and
> breadth of content, and not so much in the topics it covers.
>
> Anyway, I would like to create a mailing list and add everyone who has
> expressed an interest in contributing to the book. Unfortunately, Google
> Code doesn't have mailng lists, so I'll probably have to look around for
> that (Nabble, maybe?). Any suggestions would be welcome here.
>
> In terms of moving the proposed TOC forward, here are some of my next steps
> :
> 1. Attribute the main sections of the project documentation into possible
> chapters in the book.
> 2. Discuss feedback from this list on the content of the proposed TOC : e.g.
> any alternative ideas on how to organize the book, changes to the proposed
> chapter titles, order, etc.
>
> It would be great if there are any volunteers to investigate some of the
> issues that were discussed previously in the thread below, I'll probably
> post the needed tasks somewhere on the wiki as well.
>
> When we get our mailing list set up, I think that individuals or groups of
> individuals can claim ownership of each chapter (and thus get "voting
> rights" on the TOC, chapter layout, further modifications, etc.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Alex Kotchnev
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 4:59 AM, Hugo Palma <hu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> inline
>>
>> Alex Kotchnev wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Would there be any value to having a top-level domain for the book (e.g.
>>> tapestry-book.org or something like that), or can we find it a home for
>>> the
>>> book somewhere under the Tapestry namespace ?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> A top-level domain should brink more visibility to the effort. Also, in the
>> future we could probably spend some of the monetary payback to pay for the
>> domain and some hosting solution so that we could include the live version
>> of the book application and other cool stuff.
>> Still, for now i think we can live with a project on some project hosting
>> site where we can host the book files and wiki.
>>
>>
>>> A note on the potential mode for governing decisions : I was thinking that
>>> in the next couple of days, I'll post a list of possible chapters to
>>> include
>>> in the book. Then, we can collect a first set of volunteers for people
>>> take
>>> ownership of each chapter. After the initial set of volunteers, the
>>> chapter
>>> owners will vote on addition of new chapters and giving ownership of
>>> chapters to new contributors (if needed).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Shouldn't the outline be already created in a tapestry-book wiki ?
>> We could decide on where to host it and then move the discussion to the
>> dedicated list and use its wiki for the outline.
>>
>> On whether the book would cover additional libraries (e.g. chennilekit,
>>
>>> t5components): I think that after we get to a good place where we have
>>> enough content on the core we can probably spend some time on those as
>>> well,
>>> possibly with contributions from the project owners. Conceptually, it
>>> would
>>> be impossible to include all 3rd party / contrib libraries in the book (or
>>> it will always be incomplete) . I guess my point is that I think we'd want
>>> to describe Tapestry and most essential additions (e.g. t5-hibernate,
>>> t5-spring, etc).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> While it's true that if we go down the line of including third party
>> libraries it will always be incomplete and maybe unfair to some i think it
>> would be important to cover the ones that we consider the most used. We
>> could go with a voting process where each one would say the top 2 or 3 third
>> party libraries in his opinion. The top 2 or 3 would get included in the
>> book.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>>> Alex Kotchnev
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 11:13 PM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo <
>>> thiagohp@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Em Tue, 26 Aug 2008 23:30:41 -0300, Alex Kotchnev <ak...@gmail.com>
>>>> escreveu:
>>>>
>>>> Here are a couple of the next steps that I think would be useful in
>>>> moving
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> the effort forward:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Nice! I was thinking of posting a similar set of questions here . . . :)
>>>>
>>>> 1. Post a rough outline of the table of contents in the book (initially,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> probably on the wiki).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> +1 I can't thing of another way of kicking off this project.
>>>> I just suggest another step: just start writing real content after
>>>> refining
>>>> the table of contents, thus avoiding some Frankensteinian results.
>>>>
>>>> 2. Experiment somewhat w/ the publishing / collaboration methodology.
>>>> +1
>>>>
>>>> 3. One of my areas of concern is how the merging of xml/docbook would
>>>> work
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> in the long term. I know it's just text, but I'd imagine the doc-book
>>>>> project will probably have it's own way of editing content and
>>>>> converting
>>>>> it into docbook
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I always tend to prefer handwriting documents and code over tools (so
>>>> Howard's Tapestry 5, I guess :) and we could define some policies related
>>>> to
>>>> use of tags, whitespace and maximum line length. I think the merging
>>>> problems would be reduced this way.
>>>>
>>>> 5. I think it would be best if we use either an existing "examples"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> project (e.g. like jumpstart) or take one and modify it to fit under a
>>>>> particular
>>>>> theme that gets developed throughout the book
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> +1 to find one single application that will be developed throughout the
>>>> book. It should be hosted in some repository (SourceForge, java.net,
>>>> etc).
>>>> Maybe it could even be integrated as a Tapestry subproject.
>>>>
>>>> Here are a couple more outstanding and pesky issues that are still very
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> murky in my head :
>>>>> 1. Would a book like this be published under some open source license
>>>>> (e.g.I know that there are a couple of 'open source' books, e.g. the CVS
>>>>> book the SVN book, etc) , maybe Creative commons ?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> It would be really hard to define each contributor share in the profits,
>>>> so
>>>> I think some open license and proper credits would be a better fit. This
>>>> would also attract more people to Tapestry 5, as there would be more free
>>>> documentation in the internet about it.
>>>>
>>>> The open source book does not prevent a printed version of the book.
>>>> 37signals, for example, sells the PDF and printed versions of ther
>>>> Getting
>>>> Real book, but it can be read for free in their website (
>>>> http://gettingreal.37signals.com/). By the way, very interesting read.
>>>> :)
>>>>
>>>> 2. How to make the decisions regarding a book's content ? Would it be
>>>> some
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> voting involved ? E.g. if someone thinks a particular chapter should be
>>>>> in
>>>>> the book, and others don't agree, how to decide if the chapter is in the
>>>>> book or no (here comes the concept of "committers" again)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Looking at several different projects , there are two main ways to
>>>> organize
>>>> a team:
>>>> 1) Benevolent dictatorship. The team has a leader that listens to
>>>> everybody, but he/she decides.
>>>> 2) Straight democracy. We could (re)use the Apache model (my choice).
>>>>
>>>> 3. Can we continue using this T5 users list or discussions regarding the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> book are a distraction ?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> IMHO, the Tapestry users list is already used for two very different
>>>> Tapestry versions, so we should open some other communication channel
>>>> (forum, another mailing list, maybe a tapestry-book one).
>>>>
>>>> Another questions:
>>>>
>>>> 4) Would it only cover 1st party packages or 3rd party ones
>>>> (t5components,
>>>> chinellikit, etc) too?
>>>>
>>>> My first thoughts: yes, and the 3rd party packages would happily write
>>>> about their creations. I would. :)
>>>>
>>>> 5) Would it also have a cookbook section or chapter?
>>>>
>>>> My answer: yes, and we could reuse the Tapestry wiki pages here. The book
>>>> would then be something like a central place to find additional
>>>> information,
>>>> something similar to what the Hibernate document is.
>>>>
>>>> I'm really very positively surprised by the amount of feedback so far,
>>>> and
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I'm very curious to see how far we can take this. Please comment on any
>>>>> of
>>>>> the ideas above, rip me to shreds if you think this is the wrong way of
>>>>> doing it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I second your words, Alex. This is going to be a really interesting
>>>> project, involving people from many places around the world, having
>>>> different first languages, different visions, but sharing the same goal:
>>>> promoting our favorite Java web framework by writing a good book about
>>>> it.
>>>> :)
>>>>
>>>> Thiago
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
Re: T5 : [ANN] The book - next steps
Posted by Chris Lewis <ch...@bellsouth.net>.
Awesome! I'll try to have a look in a couple of hours, and if I can make
the time, I'd like to contribute either in raw content and/or
collaborative editing. As for a discussion channel for the book, why not
use google-groups?
Alex Kotchnev wrote:
> I've created a new project for the proposed book at
> http://code.google.com/p/tapestry5-book , and posted the proposed table of
> contents at
> http://code.google.com/p/tapestry5-book/wiki/ProposedTableOfContents . Now
> that I'm looking at it, it's a little disappointing as the TOC doesn't
> really have anything new in it (e.g. some of it is covered in tutorials,
> other is in the project docs, etc). However, I guess that the content really
> can't be all that different - it's all about building web apps, covering the
> same materials as the other documentation. In the end, I think that the book
> will be different from the other existing documents based on its style and
> breadth of content, and not so much in the topics it covers.
>
> Anyway, I would like to create a mailing list and add everyone who has
> expressed an interest in contributing to the book. Unfortunately, Google
> Code doesn't have mailng lists, so I'll probably have to look around for
> that (Nabble, maybe?). Any suggestions would be welcome here.
>
> In terms of moving the proposed TOC forward, here are some of my next steps
> :
> 1. Attribute the main sections of the project documentation into possible
> chapters in the book.
> 2. Discuss feedback from this list on the content of the proposed TOC : e.g.
> any alternative ideas on how to organize the book, changes to the proposed
> chapter titles, order, etc.
>
> It would be great if there are any volunteers to investigate some of the
> issues that were discussed previously in the thread below, I'll probably
> post the needed tasks somewhere on the wiki as well.
>
> When we get our mailing list set up, I think that individuals or groups of
> individuals can claim ownership of each chapter (and thus get "voting
> rights" on the TOC, chapter layout, further modifications, etc.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Alex Kotchnev
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 4:59 AM, Hugo Palma <hu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> inline
>>
>> Alex Kotchnev wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Would there be any value to having a top-level domain for the book (e.g.
>>> tapestry-book.org or something like that), or can we find it a home for
>>> the
>>> book somewhere under the Tapestry namespace ?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> A top-level domain should brink more visibility to the effort. Also, in the
>> future we could probably spend some of the monetary payback to pay for the
>> domain and some hosting solution so that we could include the live version
>> of the book application and other cool stuff.
>> Still, for now i think we can live with a project on some project hosting
>> site where we can host the book files and wiki.
>>
>>
>>> A note on the potential mode for governing decisions : I was thinking that
>>> in the next couple of days, I'll post a list of possible chapters to
>>> include
>>> in the book. Then, we can collect a first set of volunteers for people
>>> take
>>> ownership of each chapter. After the initial set of volunteers, the
>>> chapter
>>> owners will vote on addition of new chapters and giving ownership of
>>> chapters to new contributors (if needed).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Shouldn't the outline be already created in a tapestry-book wiki ?
>> We could decide on where to host it and then move the discussion to the
>> dedicated list and use its wiki for the outline.
>>
>> On whether the book would cover additional libraries (e.g. chennilekit,
>>
>>> t5components): I think that after we get to a good place where we have
>>> enough content on the core we can probably spend some time on those as
>>> well,
>>> possibly with contributions from the project owners. Conceptually, it
>>> would
>>> be impossible to include all 3rd party / contrib libraries in the book (or
>>> it will always be incomplete) . I guess my point is that I think we'd want
>>> to describe Tapestry and most essential additions (e.g. t5-hibernate,
>>> t5-spring, etc).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> While it's true that if we go down the line of including third party
>> libraries it will always be incomplete and maybe unfair to some i think it
>> would be important to cover the ones that we consider the most used. We
>> could go with a voting process where each one would say the top 2 or 3 third
>> party libraries in his opinion. The top 2 or 3 would get included in the
>> book.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>>> Alex Kotchnev
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 11:13 PM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo <
>>> thiagohp@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Em Tue, 26 Aug 2008 23:30:41 -0300, Alex Kotchnev <ak...@gmail.com>
>>>> escreveu:
>>>>
>>>> Here are a couple of the next steps that I think would be useful in
>>>> moving
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> the effort forward:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Nice! I was thinking of posting a similar set of questions here . . . :)
>>>>
>>>> 1. Post a rough outline of the table of contents in the book (initially,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> probably on the wiki).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> +1 I can't thing of another way of kicking off this project.
>>>> I just suggest another step: just start writing real content after
>>>> refining
>>>> the table of contents, thus avoiding some Frankensteinian results.
>>>>
>>>> 2. Experiment somewhat w/ the publishing / collaboration methodology.
>>>> +1
>>>>
>>>> 3. One of my areas of concern is how the merging of xml/docbook would
>>>> work
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> in the long term. I know it's just text, but I'd imagine the doc-book
>>>>> project will probably have it's own way of editing content and
>>>>> converting
>>>>> it into docbook
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I always tend to prefer handwriting documents and code over tools (so
>>>> Howard's Tapestry 5, I guess :) and we could define some policies related
>>>> to
>>>> use of tags, whitespace and maximum line length. I think the merging
>>>> problems would be reduced this way.
>>>>
>>>> 5. I think it would be best if we use either an existing "examples"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> project (e.g. like jumpstart) or take one and modify it to fit under a
>>>>> particular
>>>>> theme that gets developed throughout the book
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> +1 to find one single application that will be developed throughout the
>>>> book. It should be hosted in some repository (SourceForge, java.net,
>>>> etc).
>>>> Maybe it could even be integrated as a Tapestry subproject.
>>>>
>>>> Here are a couple more outstanding and pesky issues that are still very
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> murky in my head :
>>>>> 1. Would a book like this be published under some open source license
>>>>> (e.g.I know that there are a couple of 'open source' books, e.g. the CVS
>>>>> book the SVN book, etc) , maybe Creative commons ?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> It would be really hard to define each contributor share in the profits,
>>>> so
>>>> I think some open license and proper credits would be a better fit. This
>>>> would also attract more people to Tapestry 5, as there would be more free
>>>> documentation in the internet about it.
>>>>
>>>> The open source book does not prevent a printed version of the book.
>>>> 37signals, for example, sells the PDF and printed versions of ther
>>>> Getting
>>>> Real book, but it can be read for free in their website (
>>>> http://gettingreal.37signals.com/). By the way, very interesting read.
>>>> :)
>>>>
>>>> 2. How to make the decisions regarding a book's content ? Would it be
>>>> some
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> voting involved ? E.g. if someone thinks a particular chapter should be
>>>>> in
>>>>> the book, and others don't agree, how to decide if the chapter is in the
>>>>> book or no (here comes the concept of "committers" again)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Looking at several different projects , there are two main ways to
>>>> organize
>>>> a team:
>>>> 1) Benevolent dictatorship. The team has a leader that listens to
>>>> everybody, but he/she decides.
>>>> 2) Straight democracy. We could (re)use the Apache model (my choice).
>>>>
>>>> 3. Can we continue using this T5 users list or discussions regarding the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> book are a distraction ?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> IMHO, the Tapestry users list is already used for two very different
>>>> Tapestry versions, so we should open some other communication channel
>>>> (forum, another mailing list, maybe a tapestry-book one).
>>>>
>>>> Another questions:
>>>>
>>>> 4) Would it only cover 1st party packages or 3rd party ones
>>>> (t5components,
>>>> chinellikit, etc) too?
>>>>
>>>> My first thoughts: yes, and the 3rd party packages would happily write
>>>> about their creations. I would. :)
>>>>
>>>> 5) Would it also have a cookbook section or chapter?
>>>>
>>>> My answer: yes, and we could reuse the Tapestry wiki pages here. The book
>>>> would then be something like a central place to find additional
>>>> information,
>>>> something similar to what the Hibernate document is.
>>>>
>>>> I'm really very positively surprised by the amount of feedback so far,
>>>> and
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I'm very curious to see how far we can take this. Please comment on any
>>>>> of
>>>>> the ideas above, rip me to shreds if you think this is the wrong way of
>>>>> doing it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I second your words, Alex. This is going to be a really interesting
>>>> project, involving people from many places around the world, having
>>>> different first languages, different visions, but sharing the same goal:
>>>> promoting our favorite Java web framework by writing a good book about
>>>> it.
>>>> :)
>>>>
>>>> Thiago
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
--
http://thegodcode.net
RE: T5 : [ANN] The book - (Index & Appendices)
Posted by Russell Brown <Ru...@ioko.com>.
I think a character in Kurt Vonnegut Jr. Cat's Cradle has a fair bit of
advice on indexing your own book (she says "never").
-----Original Message-----
From: Alex Kotchnev [mailto:akochnev@gmail.com]
Sent: 05 September 2008 05:35
To: Tapestry users
Subject: Re: T5 : [ANN] The book - (Index & Appendices)
I know from experience that creating a good index is just a lot of
grueling
work . I really haven't given much thought to the topic, as it seems
that
it's quite far away in the future.
Also, not to diminish the importance of the index; however, at this
point,
it is not very clear exactly what the printing options for the book are
going to be (e.g. purchase on lulu, print a pdf on your own), and it's
not
even a "proper" technical book yet (e.g. no publisher or anything like
that). So, once again, the index is very much in the future.
Cheers,
Alex Kotchnev
On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 9:22 AM, <ph...@digiatlas.org> wrote:
> I know this is very early in the piece, but what do you intend to do
about
> indexing the book?
>
> The Kolesnikov Tapestry book has one of the worst indexes I've ever
come
> across and stands as a good example of how not to do it.
>
> Having a good index is a very important part of any successful
technical
> book. Indexing a book well is a non-trivial matter and shouldn't just
be a
> last minute thought.
>
> I'd also suggest a good set of Appendices - one, at least, should list
the
> components and what parameters they take.
>
> Anyway, something to think about.
>
> p.
>
>
> Quoting Alex Kotchnev <ak...@gmail.com>:
>
> I've created a new project for the proposed book at
>> http://code.google.com/p/tapestry5-book , and posted the proposed
table
>> of
>> contents at
>> http://code.google.com/p/tapestry5-book/wiki/ProposedTableOfContents
.
>> Now
>> that I'm looking at it, it's a little disappointing as the TOC
doesn't
>> really have anything new in it (e.g. some of it is covered in
tutorials,
>> other is in the project docs, etc). However, I guess that the content
>> really
>> can't be all that different - it's all about building web apps,
covering
>> the
>> same materials as the other documentation. In the end, I think that
the
>> book
>> will be different from the other existing documents based on its
style and
>> breadth of content, and not so much in the topics it covers.
>>
>> Anyway, I would like to create a mailing list and add everyone who
has
>> expressed an interest in contributing to the book. Unfortunately,
Google
>> Code doesn't have mailng lists, so I'll probably have to look around
for
>> that (Nabble, maybe?). Any suggestions would be welcome here.
>>
>> In terms of moving the proposed TOC forward, here are some of my next
>> steps
>> :
>> 1. Attribute the main sections of the project documentation into
possible
>> chapters in the book.
>> 2. Discuss feedback from this list on the content of the proposed TOC
:
>> e.g.
>> any alternative ideas on how to organize the book, changes to the
proposed
>> chapter titles, order, etc.
>>
>> It would be great if there are any volunteers to investigate some of
the
>> issues that were discussed previously in the thread below, I'll
probably
>> post the needed tasks somewhere on the wiki as well.
>>
>> When we get our mailing list set up, I think that individuals or
groups of
>> individuals can claim ownership of each chapter (and thus get "voting
>> rights" on the TOC, chapter layout, further modifications, etc.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Alex Kotchnev
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 4:59 AM, Hugo Palma <hu...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> inline
>>>
>>> Alex Kotchnev wrote:
>>>
>>> Would there be any value to having a top-level domain for the book
(e.g.
>>>> tapestry-book.org or something like that), or can we find it a home
for
>>>> the
>>>> book somewhere under the Tapestry namespace ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A top-level domain should brink more visibility to the effort.
Also, in
>>> the
>>> future we could probably spend some of the monetary payback to pay
for
>>> the
>>> domain and some hosting solution so that we could include the live
>>> version
>>> of the book application and other cool stuff.
>>> Still, for now i think we can live with a project on some project
hosting
>>> site where we can host the book files and wiki.
>>>
>>> A note on the potential mode for governing decisions : I was
thinking
>>>> that
>>>> in the next couple of days, I'll post a list of possible chapters
to
>>>> include
>>>> in the book. Then, we can collect a first set of volunteers for
people
>>>> take
>>>> ownership of each chapter. After the initial set of volunteers, the
>>>> chapter
>>>> owners will vote on addition of new chapters and giving ownership
of
>>>> chapters to new contributors (if needed).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Shouldn't the outline be already created in a tapestry-book wiki ?
>>> We could decide on where to host it and then move the discussion to
the
>>> dedicated list and use its wiki for the outline.
>>>
>>> On whether the book would cover additional libraries (e.g.
chennilekit,
>>>
>>>> t5components): I think that after we get to a good place where we
have
>>>> enough content on the core we can probably spend some time on those
as
>>>> well,
>>>> possibly with contributions from the project owners. Conceptually,
it
>>>> would
>>>> be impossible to include all 3rd party / contrib libraries in the
book
>>>> (or
>>>> it will always be incomplete) . I guess my point is that I think
we'd
>>>> want
>>>> to describe Tapestry and most essential additions (e.g.
t5-hibernate,
>>>> t5-spring, etc).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> While it's true that if we go down the line of including third
party
>>> libraries it will always be incomplete and maybe unfair to some i
think
>>> it
>>> would be important to cover the ones that we consider the most used.
We
>>> could go with a voting process where each one would say the top 2 or
3
>>> third
>>> party libraries in his opinion. The top 2 or 3 would get included in
the
>>> book.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Alex Kotchnev
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 11:13 PM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo <
>>>> thiagohp@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Em Tue, 26 Aug 2008 23:30:41 -0300, Alex Kotchnev
<ak...@gmail.com>
>>>>> escreveu:
>>>>>
>>>>> Here are a couple of the next steps that I think would be useful
in
>>>>> moving
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> the effort forward:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nice! I was thinking of posting a similar set of questions here
. . .
>>>>> :)
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Post a rough outline of the table of contents in the book
>>>>> (initially,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> probably on the wiki).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> +1 I can't thing of another way of kicking off this project.
>>>>> I just suggest another step: just start writing real content after
>>>>> refining
>>>>> the table of contents, thus avoiding some Frankensteinian results.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. Experiment somewhat w/ the publishing / collaboration
methodology.
>>>>> +1
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. One of my areas of concern is how the merging of xml/docbook
would
>>>>> work
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> in the long term. I know it's just text, but I'd imagine the
doc-book
>>>>>> project will probably have it's own way of editing content and
>>>>>> converting
>>>>>> it into docbook
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I always tend to prefer handwriting documents and code over
tools (so
>>>>> Howard's Tapestry 5, I guess :) and we could define some policies
>>>>> related
>>>>> to
>>>>> use of tags, whitespace and maximum line length. I think the
merging
>>>>> problems would be reduced this way.
>>>>>
>>>>> 5. I think it would be best if we use either an existing
"examples"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> project (e.g. like jumpstart) or take one and modify it to fit
under
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> particular
>>>>>> theme that gets developed throughout the book
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> +1 to find one single application that will be developed
throughout
>>>>> the
>>>>> book. It should be hosted in some repository (SourceForge,
java.net,
>>>>> etc).
>>>>> Maybe it could even be integrated as a Tapestry subproject.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here are a couple more outstanding and pesky issues that are
still
>>>>> very
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> murky in my head :
>>>>>> 1. Would a book like this be published under some open source
license
>>>>>> (e.g.I know that there are a couple of 'open source' books, e.g.
the
>>>>>> CVS
>>>>>> book the SVN book, etc) , maybe Creative commons ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It would be really hard to define each contributor share in the
>>>>> profits,
>>>>> so
>>>>> I think some open license and proper credits would be a better
fit.
>>>>> This
>>>>> would also attract more people to Tapestry 5, as there would be
more
>>>>> free
>>>>> documentation in the internet about it.
>>>>>
>>>>> The open source book does not prevent a printed version of the
book.
>>>>> 37signals, for example, sells the PDF and printed versions of ther
>>>>> Getting
>>>>> Real book, but it can be read for free in their website (
>>>>> http://gettingreal.37signals.com/). By the way, very interesting
read.
>>>>> :)
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. How to make the decisions regarding a book's content ? Would
it be
>>>>> some
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> voting involved ? E.g. if someone thinks a particular chapter
should
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> the book, and others don't agree, how to decide if the chapter is
in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> book or no (here comes the concept of "committers" again)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Looking at several different projects , there are two main ways
to
>>>>> organize
>>>>> a team:
>>>>> 1) Benevolent dictatorship. The team has a leader that listens to
>>>>> everybody, but he/she decides.
>>>>> 2) Straight democracy. We could (re)use the Apache model (my
choice).
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. Can we continue using this T5 users list or discussions
regarding
>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> book are a distraction ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IMHO, the Tapestry users list is already used for two very
different
>>>>> Tapestry versions, so we should open some other communication
channel
>>>>> (forum, another mailing list, maybe a tapestry-book one).
>>>>>
>>>>> Another questions:
>>>>>
>>>>> 4) Would it only cover 1st party packages or 3rd party ones
>>>>> (t5components,
>>>>> chinellikit, etc) too?
>>>>>
>>>>> My first thoughts: yes, and the 3rd party packages would happily
write
>>>>> about their creations. I would. :)
>>>>>
>>>>> 5) Would it also have a cookbook section or chapter?
>>>>>
>>>>> My answer: yes, and we could reuse the Tapestry wiki pages here.
The
>>>>> book
>>>>> would then be something like a central place to find additional
>>>>> information,
>>>>> something similar to what the Hibernate document is.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm really very positively surprised by the amount of feedback so
far,
>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm very curious to see how far we can take this. Please comment
on
>>>>>> any
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the ideas above, rip me to shreds if you think this is the wrong
way
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> doing it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I second your words, Alex. This is going to be a really
interesting
>>>>> project, involving people from many places around the world,
having
>>>>> different first languages, different visions, but sharing the same
>>>>> goal:
>>>>> promoting our favorite Java web framework by writing a good book
about
>>>>> it.
>>>>> :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Thiago
>>>>>
>>>>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
Re: T5 : [ANN] The book - (Index & Appendices)
Posted by Alex Kotchnev <ak...@gmail.com>.
I know from experience that creating a good index is just a lot of grueling
work . I really haven't given much thought to the topic, as it seems that
it's quite far away in the future.
Also, not to diminish the importance of the index; however, at this point,
it is not very clear exactly what the printing options for the book are
going to be (e.g. purchase on lulu, print a pdf on your own), and it's not
even a "proper" technical book yet (e.g. no publisher or anything like
that). So, once again, the index is very much in the future.
Cheers,
Alex Kotchnev
On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 9:22 AM, <ph...@digiatlas.org> wrote:
> I know this is very early in the piece, but what do you intend to do about
> indexing the book?
>
> The Kolesnikov Tapestry book has one of the worst indexes I've ever come
> across and stands as a good example of how not to do it.
>
> Having a good index is a very important part of any successful technical
> book. Indexing a book well is a non-trivial matter and shouldn't just be a
> last minute thought.
>
> I'd also suggest a good set of Appendices - one, at least, should list the
> components and what parameters they take.
>
> Anyway, something to think about.
>
> p.
>
>
> Quoting Alex Kotchnev <ak...@gmail.com>:
>
> I've created a new project for the proposed book at
>> http://code.google.com/p/tapestry5-book , and posted the proposed table
>> of
>> contents at
>> http://code.google.com/p/tapestry5-book/wiki/ProposedTableOfContents .
>> Now
>> that I'm looking at it, it's a little disappointing as the TOC doesn't
>> really have anything new in it (e.g. some of it is covered in tutorials,
>> other is in the project docs, etc). However, I guess that the content
>> really
>> can't be all that different - it's all about building web apps, covering
>> the
>> same materials as the other documentation. In the end, I think that the
>> book
>> will be different from the other existing documents based on its style and
>> breadth of content, and not so much in the topics it covers.
>>
>> Anyway, I would like to create a mailing list and add everyone who has
>> expressed an interest in contributing to the book. Unfortunately, Google
>> Code doesn't have mailng lists, so I'll probably have to look around for
>> that (Nabble, maybe?). Any suggestions would be welcome here.
>>
>> In terms of moving the proposed TOC forward, here are some of my next
>> steps
>> :
>> 1. Attribute the main sections of the project documentation into possible
>> chapters in the book.
>> 2. Discuss feedback from this list on the content of the proposed TOC :
>> e.g.
>> any alternative ideas on how to organize the book, changes to the proposed
>> chapter titles, order, etc.
>>
>> It would be great if there are any volunteers to investigate some of the
>> issues that were discussed previously in the thread below, I'll probably
>> post the needed tasks somewhere on the wiki as well.
>>
>> When we get our mailing list set up, I think that individuals or groups of
>> individuals can claim ownership of each chapter (and thus get "voting
>> rights" on the TOC, chapter layout, further modifications, etc.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Alex Kotchnev
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 4:59 AM, Hugo Palma <hu...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> inline
>>>
>>> Alex Kotchnev wrote:
>>>
>>> Would there be any value to having a top-level domain for the book (e.g.
>>>> tapestry-book.org or something like that), or can we find it a home for
>>>> the
>>>> book somewhere under the Tapestry namespace ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A top-level domain should brink more visibility to the effort. Also, in
>>> the
>>> future we could probably spend some of the monetary payback to pay for
>>> the
>>> domain and some hosting solution so that we could include the live
>>> version
>>> of the book application and other cool stuff.
>>> Still, for now i think we can live with a project on some project hosting
>>> site where we can host the book files and wiki.
>>>
>>> A note on the potential mode for governing decisions : I was thinking
>>>> that
>>>> in the next couple of days, I'll post a list of possible chapters to
>>>> include
>>>> in the book. Then, we can collect a first set of volunteers for people
>>>> take
>>>> ownership of each chapter. After the initial set of volunteers, the
>>>> chapter
>>>> owners will vote on addition of new chapters and giving ownership of
>>>> chapters to new contributors (if needed).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Shouldn't the outline be already created in a tapestry-book wiki ?
>>> We could decide on where to host it and then move the discussion to the
>>> dedicated list and use its wiki for the outline.
>>>
>>> On whether the book would cover additional libraries (e.g. chennilekit,
>>>
>>>> t5components): I think that after we get to a good place where we have
>>>> enough content on the core we can probably spend some time on those as
>>>> well,
>>>> possibly with contributions from the project owners. Conceptually, it
>>>> would
>>>> be impossible to include all 3rd party / contrib libraries in the book
>>>> (or
>>>> it will always be incomplete) . I guess my point is that I think we'd
>>>> want
>>>> to describe Tapestry and most essential additions (e.g. t5-hibernate,
>>>> t5-spring, etc).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> While it's true that if we go down the line of including third party
>>> libraries it will always be incomplete and maybe unfair to some i think
>>> it
>>> would be important to cover the ones that we consider the most used. We
>>> could go with a voting process where each one would say the top 2 or 3
>>> third
>>> party libraries in his opinion. The top 2 or 3 would get included in the
>>> book.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Alex Kotchnev
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 11:13 PM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo <
>>>> thiagohp@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Em Tue, 26 Aug 2008 23:30:41 -0300, Alex Kotchnev <ak...@gmail.com>
>>>>> escreveu:
>>>>>
>>>>> Here are a couple of the next steps that I think would be useful in
>>>>> moving
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> the effort forward:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nice! I was thinking of posting a similar set of questions here . . .
>>>>> :)
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Post a rough outline of the table of contents in the book
>>>>> (initially,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> probably on the wiki).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> +1 I can't thing of another way of kicking off this project.
>>>>> I just suggest another step: just start writing real content after
>>>>> refining
>>>>> the table of contents, thus avoiding some Frankensteinian results.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. Experiment somewhat w/ the publishing / collaboration methodology.
>>>>> +1
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. One of my areas of concern is how the merging of xml/docbook would
>>>>> work
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> in the long term. I know it's just text, but I'd imagine the doc-book
>>>>>> project will probably have it's own way of editing content and
>>>>>> converting
>>>>>> it into docbook
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I always tend to prefer handwriting documents and code over tools (so
>>>>> Howard's Tapestry 5, I guess :) and we could define some policies
>>>>> related
>>>>> to
>>>>> use of tags, whitespace and maximum line length. I think the merging
>>>>> problems would be reduced this way.
>>>>>
>>>>> 5. I think it would be best if we use either an existing "examples"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> project (e.g. like jumpstart) or take one and modify it to fit under
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> particular
>>>>>> theme that gets developed throughout the book
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> +1 to find one single application that will be developed throughout
>>>>> the
>>>>> book. It should be hosted in some repository (SourceForge, java.net,
>>>>> etc).
>>>>> Maybe it could even be integrated as a Tapestry subproject.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here are a couple more outstanding and pesky issues that are still
>>>>> very
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> murky in my head :
>>>>>> 1. Would a book like this be published under some open source license
>>>>>> (e.g.I know that there are a couple of 'open source' books, e.g. the
>>>>>> CVS
>>>>>> book the SVN book, etc) , maybe Creative commons ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It would be really hard to define each contributor share in the
>>>>> profits,
>>>>> so
>>>>> I think some open license and proper credits would be a better fit.
>>>>> This
>>>>> would also attract more people to Tapestry 5, as there would be more
>>>>> free
>>>>> documentation in the internet about it.
>>>>>
>>>>> The open source book does not prevent a printed version of the book.
>>>>> 37signals, for example, sells the PDF and printed versions of ther
>>>>> Getting
>>>>> Real book, but it can be read for free in their website (
>>>>> http://gettingreal.37signals.com/). By the way, very interesting read.
>>>>> :)
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. How to make the decisions regarding a book's content ? Would it be
>>>>> some
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> voting involved ? E.g. if someone thinks a particular chapter should
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> the book, and others don't agree, how to decide if the chapter is in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> book or no (here comes the concept of "committers" again)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Looking at several different projects , there are two main ways to
>>>>> organize
>>>>> a team:
>>>>> 1) Benevolent dictatorship. The team has a leader that listens to
>>>>> everybody, but he/she decides.
>>>>> 2) Straight democracy. We could (re)use the Apache model (my choice).
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. Can we continue using this T5 users list or discussions regarding
>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> book are a distraction ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IMHO, the Tapestry users list is already used for two very different
>>>>> Tapestry versions, so we should open some other communication channel
>>>>> (forum, another mailing list, maybe a tapestry-book one).
>>>>>
>>>>> Another questions:
>>>>>
>>>>> 4) Would it only cover 1st party packages or 3rd party ones
>>>>> (t5components,
>>>>> chinellikit, etc) too?
>>>>>
>>>>> My first thoughts: yes, and the 3rd party packages would happily write
>>>>> about their creations. I would. :)
>>>>>
>>>>> 5) Would it also have a cookbook section or chapter?
>>>>>
>>>>> My answer: yes, and we could reuse the Tapestry wiki pages here. The
>>>>> book
>>>>> would then be something like a central place to find additional
>>>>> information,
>>>>> something similar to what the Hibernate document is.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm really very positively surprised by the amount of feedback so far,
>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm very curious to see how far we can take this. Please comment on
>>>>>> any
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the ideas above, rip me to shreds if you think this is the wrong way
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> doing it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I second your words, Alex. This is going to be a really interesting
>>>>> project, involving people from many places around the world, having
>>>>> different first languages, different visions, but sharing the same
>>>>> goal:
>>>>> promoting our favorite Java web framework by writing a good book about
>>>>> it.
>>>>> :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Thiago
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
Re: T5 : [ANN] The book - (Index & Appendices)
Posted by ph...@digiatlas.org.
I know this is very early in the piece, but what do you intend to do
about indexing the book?
The Kolesnikov Tapestry book has one of the worst indexes I've ever
come across and stands as a good example of how not to do it.
Having a good index is a very important part of any successful
technical book. Indexing a book well is a non-trivial matter and
shouldn't just be a last minute thought.
I'd also suggest a good set of Appendices - one, at least, should list
the components and what parameters they take.
Anyway, something to think about.
p.
Quoting Alex Kotchnev <ak...@gmail.com>:
> I've created a new project for the proposed book at
> http://code.google.com/p/tapestry5-book , and posted the proposed table of
> contents at
> http://code.google.com/p/tapestry5-book/wiki/ProposedTableOfContents . Now
> that I'm looking at it, it's a little disappointing as the TOC doesn't
> really have anything new in it (e.g. some of it is covered in tutorials,
> other is in the project docs, etc). However, I guess that the content really
> can't be all that different - it's all about building web apps, covering the
> same materials as the other documentation. In the end, I think that the book
> will be different from the other existing documents based on its style and
> breadth of content, and not so much in the topics it covers.
>
> Anyway, I would like to create a mailing list and add everyone who has
> expressed an interest in contributing to the book. Unfortunately, Google
> Code doesn't have mailng lists, so I'll probably have to look around for
> that (Nabble, maybe?). Any suggestions would be welcome here.
>
> In terms of moving the proposed TOC forward, here are some of my next steps
> :
> 1. Attribute the main sections of the project documentation into possible
> chapters in the book.
> 2. Discuss feedback from this list on the content of the proposed TOC : e.g.
> any alternative ideas on how to organize the book, changes to the proposed
> chapter titles, order, etc.
>
> It would be great if there are any volunteers to investigate some of the
> issues that were discussed previously in the thread below, I'll probably
> post the needed tasks somewhere on the wiki as well.
>
> When we get our mailing list set up, I think that individuals or groups of
> individuals can claim ownership of each chapter (and thus get "voting
> rights" on the TOC, chapter layout, further modifications, etc.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Alex Kotchnev
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 4:59 AM, Hugo Palma <hu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> inline
>>
>> Alex Kotchnev wrote:
>>
>>> Would there be any value to having a top-level domain for the book (e.g.
>>> tapestry-book.org or something like that), or can we find it a home for
>>> the
>>> book somewhere under the Tapestry namespace ?
>>>
>>>
>> A top-level domain should brink more visibility to the effort. Also, in the
>> future we could probably spend some of the monetary payback to pay for the
>> domain and some hosting solution so that we could include the live version
>> of the book application and other cool stuff.
>> Still, for now i think we can live with a project on some project hosting
>> site where we can host the book files and wiki.
>>
>>> A note on the potential mode for governing decisions : I was thinking that
>>> in the next couple of days, I'll post a list of possible chapters to
>>> include
>>> in the book. Then, we can collect a first set of volunteers for people
>>> take
>>> ownership of each chapter. After the initial set of volunteers, the
>>> chapter
>>> owners will vote on addition of new chapters and giving ownership of
>>> chapters to new contributors (if needed).
>>>
>>>
>> Shouldn't the outline be already created in a tapestry-book wiki ?
>> We could decide on where to host it and then move the discussion to the
>> dedicated list and use its wiki for the outline.
>>
>> On whether the book would cover additional libraries (e.g. chennilekit,
>>> t5components): I think that after we get to a good place where we have
>>> enough content on the core we can probably spend some time on those as
>>> well,
>>> possibly with contributions from the project owners. Conceptually, it
>>> would
>>> be impossible to include all 3rd party / contrib libraries in the book (or
>>> it will always be incomplete) . I guess my point is that I think we'd want
>>> to describe Tapestry and most essential additions (e.g. t5-hibernate,
>>> t5-spring, etc).
>>>
>>>
>> While it's true that if we go down the line of including third party
>> libraries it will always be incomplete and maybe unfair to some i think it
>> would be important to cover the ones that we consider the most used. We
>> could go with a voting process where each one would say the top 2 or 3 third
>> party libraries in his opinion. The top 2 or 3 would get included in the
>> book.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Alex Kotchnev
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 11:13 PM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo <
>>> thiagohp@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Em Tue, 26 Aug 2008 23:30:41 -0300, Alex Kotchnev <ak...@gmail.com>
>>>> escreveu:
>>>>
>>>> Here are a couple of the next steps that I think would be useful in
>>>> moving
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> the effort forward:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Nice! I was thinking of posting a similar set of questions here . . . :)
>>>>
>>>> 1. Post a rough outline of the table of contents in the book (initially,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> probably on the wiki).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> +1 I can't thing of another way of kicking off this project.
>>>> I just suggest another step: just start writing real content after
>>>> refining
>>>> the table of contents, thus avoiding some Frankensteinian results.
>>>>
>>>> 2. Experiment somewhat w/ the publishing / collaboration methodology.
>>>> +1
>>>>
>>>> 3. One of my areas of concern is how the merging of xml/docbook would
>>>> work
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> in the long term. I know it's just text, but I'd imagine the doc-book
>>>>> project will probably have it's own way of editing content and
>>>>> converting
>>>>> it into docbook
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I always tend to prefer handwriting documents and code over tools (so
>>>> Howard's Tapestry 5, I guess :) and we could define some policies related
>>>> to
>>>> use of tags, whitespace and maximum line length. I think the merging
>>>> problems would be reduced this way.
>>>>
>>>> 5. I think it would be best if we use either an existing "examples"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> project (e.g. like jumpstart) or take one and modify it to fit under a
>>>>> particular
>>>>> theme that gets developed throughout the book
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> +1 to find one single application that will be developed throughout the
>>>> book. It should be hosted in some repository (SourceForge, java.net,
>>>> etc).
>>>> Maybe it could even be integrated as a Tapestry subproject.
>>>>
>>>> Here are a couple more outstanding and pesky issues that are still very
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> murky in my head :
>>>>> 1. Would a book like this be published under some open source license
>>>>> (e.g.I know that there are a couple of 'open source' books, e.g. the CVS
>>>>> book the SVN book, etc) , maybe Creative commons ?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> It would be really hard to define each contributor share in the profits,
>>>> so
>>>> I think some open license and proper credits would be a better fit. This
>>>> would also attract more people to Tapestry 5, as there would be more free
>>>> documentation in the internet about it.
>>>>
>>>> The open source book does not prevent a printed version of the book.
>>>> 37signals, for example, sells the PDF and printed versions of ther
>>>> Getting
>>>> Real book, but it can be read for free in their website (
>>>> http://gettingreal.37signals.com/). By the way, very interesting read.
>>>> :)
>>>>
>>>> 2. How to make the decisions regarding a book's content ? Would it be
>>>> some
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> voting involved ? E.g. if someone thinks a particular chapter should be
>>>>> in
>>>>> the book, and others don't agree, how to decide if the chapter is in the
>>>>> book or no (here comes the concept of "committers" again)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Looking at several different projects , there are two main ways to
>>>> organize
>>>> a team:
>>>> 1) Benevolent dictatorship. The team has a leader that listens to
>>>> everybody, but he/she decides.
>>>> 2) Straight democracy. We could (re)use the Apache model (my choice).
>>>>
>>>> 3. Can we continue using this T5 users list or discussions regarding the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> book are a distraction ?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> IMHO, the Tapestry users list is already used for two very different
>>>> Tapestry versions, so we should open some other communication channel
>>>> (forum, another mailing list, maybe a tapestry-book one).
>>>>
>>>> Another questions:
>>>>
>>>> 4) Would it only cover 1st party packages or 3rd party ones
>>>> (t5components,
>>>> chinellikit, etc) too?
>>>>
>>>> My first thoughts: yes, and the 3rd party packages would happily write
>>>> about their creations. I would. :)
>>>>
>>>> 5) Would it also have a cookbook section or chapter?
>>>>
>>>> My answer: yes, and we could reuse the Tapestry wiki pages here. The book
>>>> would then be something like a central place to find additional
>>>> information,
>>>> something similar to what the Hibernate document is.
>>>>
>>>> I'm really very positively surprised by the amount of feedback so far,
>>>> and
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I'm very curious to see how far we can take this. Please comment on any
>>>>> of
>>>>> the ideas above, rip me to shreds if you think this is the wrong way of
>>>>> doing it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I second your words, Alex. This is going to be a really interesting
>>>> project, involving people from many places around the world, having
>>>> different first languages, different visions, but sharing the same goal:
>>>> promoting our favorite Java web framework by writing a good book about
>>>> it.
>>>> :)
>>>>
>>>> Thiago
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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