OpenOffice.org Product Roadmap: made by whom ? was: Re: [discuss] remove of binfilter module

[Martin Hollmichel <ma...@googlemail.com>]

Hi Sam,
> Do you have a concrete proposal?
yes, I have.

First, I do not have any problems with the Apache style of decision
making, lazy consensus sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I like that
style. This fits perfectly to the "meritocracy" principle.

My understanding is, that this principle is based on
* contributing individuals
* organizations/institutions contributing developers and/or money for
the infrastructure/governance, these organizations contribute because
they have derived products or other business around the regarding software.
So users are represented in this model by own work power or indirectly
by companies.
This principle has been proven to work quite well for many open source
projects.

I think this principle may get enhanced by enabling a non profit
organization to have their own resources on a project (This might fit
into the Apache philosophy considering this organization as an
contributing institution). I think this is necessary because there is
already a lot of business happening around OpenOffice, but most of these
businesses are just to small or have not the right expertise to execute
on the "meritocracy" principle.
So what the OOo project missed most was to have a path to get product
feature or tasks done (or just 4th level support) with the help of money
offered.

So my proposal is continue project decisions the Apache Style but also
to find a framework to make product decisions in a manner that also the
concerns of Users, local communities, QA, business partners, etc. get
honored. This framework also should enable to collect money so that
development (committer) resources can be found to get the issues
addressed in an equitable process.

We already have thousands of feature requests and enhancements in the
queue, we are putting a new bunch of requirements on top of it through
the current transition to Apache, I think we should seek the power of
_all_ OOo communities, users and businesses to achieve significant
growth to make OOo a better and successful product. And I did not even
included wishes like ODF Viewers, mobile and Cloud services around OOo.

My offer is to develop (with all concerned parties) a new charter for
all the groups mentioned above (as a successor of the Community Council
Charter) and enable the project to have own development resources. The
non profit organization Team OpenOffice.org e.V. played in the past just
the role of being the cash box of the CC in a quite defensive way
(http://download.openoffice.org/contribute.html, will you find the path
to donate ??), now Team OOo is preparing to offer a link between
business, communities, users and developers to enable growth on the new
futile ground we are now moving on.

Martin

Re: OpenOffice.org Product Roadmap: made by whom ? was: Re: [discuss] remove of binfilter module

[Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>]

On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 1:24 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:59 AM, Donald Whytock wrote:
>
>> My two centimes...
>>
>> It sounds like what Martin is asking for is a mechanism whereby a
>> sponsoring corporation or collection of corporations can take the
>> corporate view and "throw money at the problem" to get things done.
>>
>> It occurs to me that this doesn't have to exist within the framework
>> of the ASF.  Since anyone can be a contributor, said anyone could be
>> in the employ of an external nonprof, so a nonprof could accept money
>> for the purposes of hiring people to subscribe to ooo-dev and have at
>> it.
>>
>> This seems like something that the ASF and PMC not only don't need to
>> do anything about, but in fact can't do anything about.
>
> It happens. Companies do get contracted to work on projects. Individuals also may be paid. If doing so then business interests need to be separated, you really shouldn't make your payment contingent on the project doing anything. That can become a community problem.
>
> Companies who are sponsoring such work for hire need to submit a CCLA. http://www.apache.org/licenses/

Largely agree with everything you said, with one subtle point in that
a CCLA may not be necessary depending on a number of factors including
whether that company claims to have a right to the intellectual
property.  Here's the actual text from the ICLA:

   If your employer(s) has rights to intellectual property
   that you create that includes your Contributions, you represent
   that you have received permission to make Contributions on behalf
   of that employer, that your employer has waived such rights for
   your Contributions to the Foundation, or that your employer has
   executed a separate Corporate CLA with the Foundation.

> Corporations / individuals can sponsor the ASF, but cannot direct those donations.
>
> Ross/Sam, do I have this stated correctly?
>
> Regards,
> Dave

- Sam Ruby

Re: OpenOffice.org Product Roadmap: made by whom ? was: Re: [discuss] remove of binfilter module

[Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>]

On 16 June 2011 18:24, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:59 AM, Donald Whytock wrote:
>
>> My two centimes...
>>
>> It sounds like what Martin is asking for is a mechanism whereby a
>> sponsoring corporation or collection of corporations can take the
>> corporate view and "throw money at the problem" to get things done.
>>
>> It occurs to me that this doesn't have to exist within the framework
>> of the ASF.  Since anyone can be a contributor, said anyone could be
>> in the employ of an external nonprof, so a nonprof could accept money
>> for the purposes of hiring people to subscribe to ooo-dev and have at
>> it.
>>
>> This seems like something that the ASF and PMC not only don't need to
>> do anything about, but in fact can't do anything about.
>
> It happens. Companies do get contracted to work on projects. Individuals also may be paid. If doing so then business interests need to be separated, you really shouldn't make your payment contingent on the project doing anything. That can become a community problem.
>
> Companies who are sponsoring such work for hire need to submit a CCLA. http://www.apache.org/licenses/
>
> Corporations / individuals can sponsor the ASF, but cannot direct those donations.
>
> Ross/Sam, do I have this stated correctly?

Sam has already commented elsewhere but since you ask for my opinion
too I'll just add that you arepretty much correct (with the slight
moification Sam made with respect to CCLAs which I only learned about
myself on a podling last month).

In summary: the ASF does not (and as far as I'm aware) will never pay
for development on any of its projects. Doing so confuses the role of
the ASF, it is not a development house it is a legal framework and
supporting infrastructure to enable developers to work
collaboratively. Anyone, within the community or outside of it, can
set up any legal entity they like to collect money and pay for it.
However, they will not be recognised as a contributor - the people it
pays will be the contributors.

As Eric pointed out educOOo is an example of this.

Ross

Re: OpenOffice.org Product Roadmap: made by whom ? was: Re: [discuss] remove of binfilter module

[Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>]

On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:59 AM, Donald Whytock wrote:

> My two centimes...
> 
> It sounds like what Martin is asking for is a mechanism whereby a
> sponsoring corporation or collection of corporations can take the
> corporate view and "throw money at the problem" to get things done.
> 
> It occurs to me that this doesn't have to exist within the framework
> of the ASF.  Since anyone can be a contributor, said anyone could be
> in the employ of an external nonprof, so a nonprof could accept money
> for the purposes of hiring people to subscribe to ooo-dev and have at
> it.
> 
> This seems like something that the ASF and PMC not only don't need to
> do anything about, but in fact can't do anything about.

It happens. Companies do get contracted to work on projects. Individuals also may be paid. If doing so then business interests need to be separated, you really shouldn't make your payment contingent on the project doing anything. That can become a community problem.

Companies who are sponsoring such work for hire need to submit a CCLA. http://www.apache.org/licenses/

Corporations / individuals can sponsor the ASF, but cannot direct those donations.

Ross/Sam, do I have this stated correctly?

Regards,
Dave

> 
> Don
> 
> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 12:51 PM, eric b <er...@free.fr> wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> 
>> Le 16 juin 11 à 18:39, Martin Hollmichel a écrit :
>> 
>>> Hi Sam,
>>>> 
>>>> Do you have a concrete proposal?
>>> 
>>> yes, I have.
>>> 
>>> First, I do not have any problems with the Apache style of decision
>>> making, lazy consensus sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I like that
>>> style. This fits perfectly to the "meritocracy" principle.
>>> 
>> 
>> [...cut...]
>> 
>> 
>>> I think this principle may get enhanced by enabling a non profit
>>> organization to have their own resources on a project (This might fit
>>> into the Apache philosophy considering this organization as an
>>> contributing institution).
>> 
>> 
>> For the record, EducOOo ( http://www.educoo.org) is a non profit
>> organization, OpenOffice.org dedicated : only based on donations, and
>> partnerships. We can accept donations from a lot of countries, since based
>> in Europa and so on. Currently, we only try to sale goodies, and to help
>> people attending events, but sure, better can be expected.
>> 
>> There is some missing english and other locale translation on our site, but
>> you can count EducOOo in the list.
>> 
>> Last but not least, we already created educoo.it ( http://www.educoo.it ),
>> educoo.es (http://educoo.es ), educoo.no (http://educoo.no ) + some others.
>> 
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Eric
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> qɔᴉɹə
>> Education Project:
>> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project
>> Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page
>> L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org
>> Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 

Re: OpenOffice.org Product Roadmap: made by whom ? was: Re: [discuss] remove of binfilter module

[Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>]

On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 12:59 PM, Donald Whytock <dw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My two centimes...
>
> It sounds like what Martin is asking for is a mechanism whereby a
> sponsoring corporation or collection of corporations can take the
> corporate view and "throw money at the problem" to get things done.
>
> It occurs to me that this doesn't have to exist within the framework
> of the ASF.  Since anyone can be a contributor, said anyone could be
> in the employ of an external nonprof, so a nonprof could accept money
> for the purposes of hiring people to subscribe to ooo-dev and have at
> it.
>
> This seems like something that the ASF and PMC not only don't need to
> do anything about, but in fact can't do anything about.

Largely agree, with one potential caveat, and that has to do with trademarks:

http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/

Beyond the general terms expressed in the above page, any issues
should be worked on a case-by-case basis.

One further comment below...

> Don
>
> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 12:51 PM, eric b <er...@free.fr> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>> Le 16 juin 11 à 18:39, Martin Hollmichel a écrit :
>>
>>> Hi Sam,
>>>>
>>>> Do you have a concrete proposal?
>>>
>>> yes, I have.
>>>
>>> First, I do not have any problems with the Apache style of decision
>>> making, lazy consensus sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I like that
>>> style. This fits perfectly to the "meritocracy" principle.
>>>
>>
>> [...cut...]
>>
>>
>>> I think this principle may get enhanced by enabling a non profit
>>> organization to have their own resources on a project (This might fit
>>> into the Apache philosophy considering this organization as an
>>> contributing institution).

The ASF does not have a concept of a contributing institution.  We
recognize individuals only, and those individuals retain their status
independent of their association with other institutions.

>> For the record, EducOOo ( http://www.educoo.org) is a non profit
>> organization, OpenOffice.org dedicated : only based on donations, and
>> partnerships. We can accept donations from a lot of countries, since based
>> in Europa and so on. Currently, we only try to sale goodies, and to help
>> people attending events, but sure, better can be expected.
>>
>> There is some missing english and other locale translation on our site, but
>> you can count EducOOo in the list.
>>
>> Last but not least, we already created educoo.it ( http://www.educoo.it ),
>> educoo.es (http://educoo.es ), educoo.no (http://educoo.no ) + some others.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Eric
>>
>> --
>> qɔᴉɹə
>> Education Project:
>> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project
>> Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page
>> L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org
>> Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news

- Sam Ruby

Re: OpenOffice.org Product Roadmap: made by whom ? was: Re: [discuss] remove of binfilter module

[Donald Whytock <dw...@gmail.com>]

My two centimes...

It sounds like what Martin is asking for is a mechanism whereby a
sponsoring corporation or collection of corporations can take the
corporate view and "throw money at the problem" to get things done.

It occurs to me that this doesn't have to exist within the framework
of the ASF.  Since anyone can be a contributor, said anyone could be
in the employ of an external nonprof, so a nonprof could accept money
for the purposes of hiring people to subscribe to ooo-dev and have at
it.

This seems like something that the ASF and PMC not only don't need to
do anything about, but in fact can't do anything about.

Don

On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 12:51 PM, eric b <er...@free.fr> wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
> Le 16 juin 11 à 18:39, Martin Hollmichel a écrit :
>
>> Hi Sam,
>>>
>>> Do you have a concrete proposal?
>>
>> yes, I have.
>>
>> First, I do not have any problems with the Apache style of decision
>> making, lazy consensus sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I like that
>> style. This fits perfectly to the "meritocracy" principle.
>>
>
> [...cut...]
>
>
>> I think this principle may get enhanced by enabling a non profit
>> organization to have their own resources on a project (This might fit
>> into the Apache philosophy considering this organization as an
>> contributing institution).
>
>
> For the record, EducOOo ( http://www.educoo.org) is a non profit
> organization, OpenOffice.org dedicated : only based on donations, and
> partnerships. We can accept donations from a lot of countries, since based
> in Europa and so on. Currently, we only try to sale goodies, and to help
> people attending events, but sure, better can be expected.
>
> There is some missing english and other locale translation on our site, but
> you can count EducOOo in the list.
>
> Last but not least, we already created educoo.it ( http://www.educoo.it ),
> educoo.es (http://educoo.es ), educoo.no (http://educoo.no ) + some others.
>
>
> Regards,
> Eric
>
>
> --
> qɔᴉɹə
> Education Project:
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project
> Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page
> L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org
> Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: OpenOffice.org Product Roadmap: made by whom ? was: Re: [discuss] remove of binfilter module

[eric b <er...@free.fr>]

Hi,


Le 16 juin 11 à 18:39, Martin Hollmichel a écrit :

> Hi Sam,
>> Do you have a concrete proposal?
> yes, I have.
>
> First, I do not have any problems with the Apache style of decision  
> making, lazy consensus sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I like that
> style. This fits perfectly to the "meritocracy" principle.
>

[...cut...]


> I think this principle may get enhanced by enabling a non profit  
> organization to have their own resources on a project (This might fit
> into the Apache philosophy considering this organization as an  
> contributing institution).


For the record, EducOOo ( http://www.educoo.org) is a non profit  
organization, OpenOffice.org dedicated : only based on donations, and  
partnerships. We can accept donations from a lot of countries, since  
based in Europa and so on. Currently, we only try to sale goodies,  
and to help people attending events, but sure, better can be expected.

There is some missing english and other locale translation on our  
site, but you can count EducOOo in the list.

Last but not least, we already created educoo.it ( http:// 
www.educoo.it ), educoo.es (http://educoo.es ), educoo.no (http:// 
educoo.no ) + some others.


Regards,
Eric


-- 
qɔᴉɹə
Education Project:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project
Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page
L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org
Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news

Re: [discuss] OpenOffice.org Product Roadmap: made by whom ? was: Re: remove of binfilter module

[Kazunari Hirano <kh...@gmail.com>]

Hi Martin and all,

Thank you, Martin, for posting this to dev@native-lang.openoffice.org
:)

As OpenOffice.org Japanese Language Project is planning to make an
announcement on announce@ja.open.office.org about the accepted
proposal <http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenOfficeProposal> which I
translated into Japanese
<http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenOfficeProposal/ja>, we would
like to include Team OpenOffice.org e.V.'s plan or preparation in our
announcement.

On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 1:39 AM, Martin Hollmichel
<ma...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> So my proposal is continue project decisions the Apache Style but also
> to find a framework to make product decisions in a manner that also the
> concerns of Users, local communities, QA, business partners, etc. get
> honored.

Right.  And we have to tell community members, users, companies, local
governments and organizations about our perspective.

> I think we should seek the power of
> _all_ OOo communities, users and businesses to achieve significant
> growth to make OOo a better and successful product. And I did not even
> included wishes like ODF Viewers, mobile and Cloud services around OOo.

I agree with you.  And we have to tell them and listen to them about
future of the product.

> My offer is to develop (with all concerned parties) a new charter for
> all the groups mentioned above (as a successor of the Community Council
> Charter) and enable the project to have own development resources. The
> non profit organization Team OpenOffice.org e.V. played in the past just
> the role of being the cash box of the CC in a quite defensive way
> (http://download.openoffice.org/contribute.html, will you find the path
> to donate ??), now Team OOo is preparing to offer a link between
> business, communities, users and developers to enable growth on the new
> futile ground we are now moving on.

What has Team OOo prepared so far?
What is the link Team OOo will offer?

Thanks,
khirano