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Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by Jean Weber <je...@gmail.com> on 2011/08/24 01:05:58 UTC
User support: beyond forums or lists
I've started a new thread, because I think Rob Weir's very important point has got lost in the discussions about forums and lists. Rob wrote:
> Support is important. The question is
> how best to do it. If all we're doing is considering the merits of
> different access methods to support, without looking at the
> implications of fragmenting the repositories and the resulting
> knowledge base, then we are doing a poor job at thinking this through.
> Remember the best support site is the one that allows the user to
> answer their own question, without signing up for a mailing list or
> posting to a forum. We should be looking at how we can prevent user
> support questions.
This ties in closely with end-user documentation and how it is delivered, so I am very interested in this topic. Later today I'll go through the archives of this list to find the earlier discussions, which I believe occurred while I was traveling and thus weren't given enough of my attention at the time. Or, have ideas and suggestions, perhaps examples of good practice, been posted to the wiki? Apple is IMO a brilliant example, but they have a lot of resources
It's clear to me that we need to do better than we have in the user support area, if we can do so. Not only will that benefit users and improve our reputation, it will allow us to work smarter, not harder. I will pursue this, along with other interested people. It's something valuable that I can do while the techies are moving websites and working with code etc.
Setting up a suitable system and populating it with suitable information will be a big task and take quite awhile, especially if we don't have enough skilled people to do it. (I'm referring to content, not infrastructure.) All the more reason to get started now with planning what we want to do, so we can start doing it ASAP.
BTW, the Docs mailing list at OOo gets quite a few enquiries from people wanting to contribute, and a few of them sound like they have relevant experience and skills. I don't want to lose them. Yes, we point them to this list as well as ODFAuthors, but I don't know how many have actually joined. If we're actively discussing topics of interest to documenters, perhaps more people can be persuaded to get involved.
--Jean
Re: User support: beyond forums or lists
Posted by Simon Phipps <si...@webmink.com>.
On 24 Aug 2011, at 00:49, Rob Weir wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 7:34 PM, Simon Phipps <si...@webmink.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 24 Aug 2011, at 00:20, Rob Weir wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 7:05 PM, Jean Weber <je...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It's clear to me that we need to do better than we have in the user support area, if we can do so. Not only will that benefit users and improve our reputation, it will allow us to work smarter, not harder. I will pursue this, along with other interested people. It's something valuable that I can do while the techies are moving websites and working with code etc.
>>>>
>>>> Setting up a suitable system and populating it with suitable information will be a big task and take quite awhile, especially if we don't have enough skilled people to do it. (I'm referring to content, not infrastructure.) All the more reason to get started now with planning what we want to do, so we can start doing it ASAP.
>>>>
>>>
>>> A system like this is a big investment. It is not easy. In fact, it
>>> probably would not be doable unless we collaborated with LibreOffice
>>> and related products on this. But I think it is worth the investment.
>>> Glad to help in any way I can.
>>
>> That would be an interesting proposal. We seem to have skipped the discussion about whether AOOo actually wants to aspire to having a full-scale consumer binary product and all the support requirements that go with it. So far the LibreOffice project has avoided creating support forums that "compete" with the openoffice.org lists; would it be smart to explore a way to have this broader, collaborative support in place?
>>
>
> My understanding is that there is already cooperation with LibreOffice
> on the existing support forums. Is that true?
Yes, I believe it is.
> If so, I'd hope that
> this would continue in any next-gen approach as well. It makes sense.
It would need to be designed-in :-) Which is why I'm raising the design-point now.
> But let's see where this thread goes, whether there is any
> enthusiasm here for a collaborative Q&A site. If there is then we
> will need help from all quarters.
>
>> S.
>>
>>
Re: User support: beyond forums or lists
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 7:34 PM, Simon Phipps <si...@webmink.com> wrote:
>
> On 24 Aug 2011, at 00:20, Rob Weir wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 7:05 PM, Jean Weber <je...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It's clear to me that we need to do better than we have in the user support area, if we can do so. Not only will that benefit users and improve our reputation, it will allow us to work smarter, not harder. I will pursue this, along with other interested people. It's something valuable that I can do while the techies are moving websites and working with code etc.
>>>
>>> Setting up a suitable system and populating it with suitable information will be a big task and take quite awhile, especially if we don't have enough skilled people to do it. (I'm referring to content, not infrastructure.) All the more reason to get started now with planning what we want to do, so we can start doing it ASAP.
>>>
>>
>> A system like this is a big investment. It is not easy. In fact, it
>> probably would not be doable unless we collaborated with LibreOffice
>> and related products on this. But I think it is worth the investment.
>> Glad to help in any way I can.
>
> That would be an interesting proposal. We seem to have skipped the discussion about whether AOOo actually wants to aspire to having a full-scale consumer binary product and all the support requirements that go with it. So far the LibreOffice project has avoided creating support forums that "compete" with the openoffice.org lists; would it be smart to explore a way to have this broader, collaborative support in place?
>
My understanding is that there is already cooperation with LibreOffice
on the existing support forums. Is that true? If so, I'd hope that
this would continue in any next-gen approach as well. It makes sense.
But let's see where this thread goes, whether there is any
enthusiasm here for a collaborative Q&A site. If there is then we
will need help from all quarters.
> S.
>
>
Re: User support: beyond forums or lists
Posted by Terry Ellison <Te...@ellisons.org.uk>.
On 24/08/11 01:28, drew wrote:
> <snip<
>> So far the LibreOffice project has avoided creating support forums
>> that "compete" with the openoffice.org lists; would it be smart to
>> explore a way to have this broader, collaborative support in place?
>
> I would not characterize it quite that way - LibreOffice has taken the
> same path that OO.o took, which is to say they have eschewed web based
> support, and that TTBOMK had nothing to do with not wanting to compete
> with OO.o forums.
>
Drew we rarely disagree, but the reality is that LibO can afford to take
this view because the vast majority of the Lib user queries come to our
forums anyway. Most LibO users are like me: LibO was the OOo distro
that was bundled with my OS (Ubuntu). At the moment there is so little
difference from a user-perspective that its not worth removing LibO and
downloading OOo.
Though this situation might regrettably diverge rather than converge.
Regards
Terry
Re: User support: beyond forums or lists
Posted by Simon Phipps <si...@webmink.com>.
On 24 Aug 2011, at 02:29, Rob Weir wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 8:58 PM, Simon Phipps <si...@webmink.com> wrote:
>>
>> I think we still need to have a serious discussion about the scope of the
>> ambitions of AOOo - it's been raised before but deferred pending actually
>> having a repo to work on. If the project chooses to maintain core code
>> rather than attempt a full-scale clone of the former OOo project, it's
>> entirely possible that commonality will remain.
>>
>>
>
> We had that discussion. The proposal was made [1]. The scope of the
> effort was defined in that proposal. You argued against that scope..
> You did not prevail. The proposal was approved. If anything has been
> deferred, it has been your acceptance of these basic facts. Just
> because you disagree with the approved scope does not mean that the
> discussion did not take place, nor does it mean that the discussion
> was not serious.
That's just not so, Rob. The time to have a scope discussion is once we are in a position to start development, and that's not happened yet. The incubator proposal merely set the stage. Meanwhile I am trying hard to positively work on the clause that says "We will make [the relationship with LibreOffice] a priority early in the life of the podlet", which does not seem to be happening. I invite you to build rather than inhibit that relationship.
>
> But regardless, I'd recommend a new thread, if you want to divert this
> discussion to questions unrelated to next-gen user support.
This is already a new thread, this is not a diversion since it relates to what is reasonable to plan regarding user support and collaboration with others. I look forward to your positive contribution and development of the ideas I'm suggesting in support of AOOo's realistic future.
S.
Re: User support: beyond forums or lists
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 8:58 PM, Simon Phipps <si...@webmink.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 1:44 AM, drew <dr...@baseanswers.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 2011-08-24 at 01:36 +0100, Simon Phipps wrote:
>>
>> > Apologies if this ought to be clear to me, but are you proposing:
>>
>> No apologies needed - I'm touchy on the subject...so just slap the back
>> of my head now and then when I need it :)
>>
>
> No worries :-)
>
>
>>
>> >
>> > 1. AOOo sets up support forums (or lists) exclusively related to its own
>> activities
>>
>> Yes - as long as it is two projects and right now that is true. With the
>> current circumstances I do not see the projects merging again, unless
>> one just capitulates to the other. (see M.M. closing slide from his
>> latest talk)
>>
>> The applications are already starting to diverge and if the plans I'm
>> hearing about come true this will accelerate.
>>
>
> Given the level of many of the questions I've seen over the years, I believe
> there will still be enough in common to permit a top-level support forum
> somewhere like "support.openoffice.org" for "family" projects that then
> links to project-specific venues for detailed issues.
>
>
>>
>> > 2. AOOo collaborates with other OpenOffice community projects such as
>> LibreOffice over this
>>
>> Right now that is possible, as long as it is possible than I am for it,
>> but for how long that will continue I can't say.
>>
>
> I think we still need to have a serious discussion about the scope of the
> ambitions of AOOo - it's been raised before but deferred pending actually
> having a repo to work on. If the project chooses to maintain core code
> rather than attempt a full-scale clone of the former OOo project, it's
> entirely possible that commonality will remain.
>
>
We had that discussion. The proposal was made [1]. The scope of the
effort was defined in that proposal. You argued against that scope..
You did not prevail. The proposal was approved. If anything has been
deferred, it has been your acceptance of these basic facts. Just
because you disagree with the approved scope does not mean that the
discussion did not take place, nor does it mean that the discussion
was not serious.
But regardless, I'd recommend a new thread, if you want to divert this
discussion to questions unrelated to next-gen user support.
[1] http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenOfficeProposal
>> > 3. We do neither of these and allow spontaneous self-support to develop
>> elsewhere?
>>
>> Well, that is what happened in the past. I would rather it be a bit more
>> coordinated this time.
>>
>
> +1
>
>
> S.
>
Re: User support: beyond forums or lists
Posted by Simon Phipps <si...@webmink.com>.
On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 1:44 AM, drew <dr...@baseanswers.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 2011-08-24 at 01:36 +0100, Simon Phipps wrote:
>
> > Apologies if this ought to be clear to me, but are you proposing:
>
> No apologies needed - I'm touchy on the subject...so just slap the back
> of my head now and then when I need it :)
>
No worries :-)
>
> >
> > 1. AOOo sets up support forums (or lists) exclusively related to its own
> activities
>
> Yes - as long as it is two projects and right now that is true. With the
> current circumstances I do not see the projects merging again, unless
> one just capitulates to the other. (see M.M. closing slide from his
> latest talk)
>
> The applications are already starting to diverge and if the plans I'm
> hearing about come true this will accelerate.
>
Given the level of many of the questions I've seen over the years, I believe
there will still be enough in common to permit a top-level support forum
somewhere like "support.openoffice.org" for "family" projects that then
links to project-specific venues for detailed issues.
>
> > 2. AOOo collaborates with other OpenOffice community projects such as
> LibreOffice over this
>
> Right now that is possible, as long as it is possible than I am for it,
> but for how long that will continue I can't say.
>
I think we still need to have a serious discussion about the scope of the
ambitions of AOOo - it's been raised before but deferred pending actually
having a repo to work on. If the project chooses to maintain core code
rather than attempt a full-scale clone of the former OOo project, it's
entirely possible that commonality will remain.
> > 3. We do neither of these and allow spontaneous self-support to develop
> elsewhere?
>
> Well, that is what happened in the past. I would rather it be a bit more
> coordinated this time.
>
+1
S.
Re: User support: beyond forums or lists
Posted by drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>.
On Wed, 2011-08-24 at 01:36 +0100, Simon Phipps wrote:
> On 24 Aug 2011, at 01:28, drew wrote:
>
> >> <snip>
> >
> >> So far the LibreOffice project has avoided creating support forums that "compete" with the openoffice.org lists; would it be smart to explore a way to have this broader, collaborative support in place?
> >
> > I would not characterize it quite that way - LibreOffice has taken the
> > same path that OO.o took, which is to say they have eschewed web based
> > support, and that TTBOMK had nothing to do with not wanting to compete
> > with OO.o forums.
> >
> > This leads to un-official forums opening (likely would anyway, IMO),
> > indeed there are already multiple LibreOffice web forums up and running
> > (with one already showing signs of failing) - TDF leaders refuses to
> > acknowledge these as being part of the 'community' just as the OO.o
> > leadership did in the past.
> >
> > Finally and I'm sorry to say this but much of this conversation IMO ends
> > up coming down to money - folks want support contracts and too much good
> > quality free support cuts into that business, just my opinion.
> >
> > Until people are willing to just deal with that head on and honestly
> > then this subject tends to deteriorate quickly.
>
> Apologies if this ought to be clear to me, but are you proposing:
No apologies needed - I'm touchy on the subject...so just slap the back
of my head now and then when I need it :)
>
> 1. AOOo sets up support forums (or lists) exclusively related to its own activities
Yes - as long as it is two projects and right now that is true. With the
current circumstances I do not see the projects merging again, unless
one just capitulates to the other. (see M.M. closing slide from his
latest talk)
The applications are already starting to diverge and if the plans I'm
hearing about come true this will accelerate.
> 2. AOOo collaborates with other OpenOffice community projects such as LibreOffice over this
Right now that is possible, as long as it is possible than I am for it,
but for how long that will continue I can't say.
> 3. We do neither of these and allow spontaneous self-support to develop elsewhere?
Well, that is what happened in the past. I would rather it be a bit more
coordinated this time.
Re: User support: beyond forums or lists
Posted by Simon Phipps <si...@webmink.com>.
On 24 Aug 2011, at 01:28, drew wrote:
>> <snip>
>
>> So far the LibreOffice project has avoided creating support forums that "compete" with the openoffice.org lists; would it be smart to explore a way to have this broader, collaborative support in place?
>
> I would not characterize it quite that way - LibreOffice has taken the
> same path that OO.o took, which is to say they have eschewed web based
> support, and that TTBOMK had nothing to do with not wanting to compete
> with OO.o forums.
>
> This leads to un-official forums opening (likely would anyway, IMO),
> indeed there are already multiple LibreOffice web forums up and running
> (with one already showing signs of failing) - TDF leaders refuses to
> acknowledge these as being part of the 'community' just as the OO.o
> leadership did in the past.
>
> Finally and I'm sorry to say this but much of this conversation IMO ends
> up coming down to money - folks want support contracts and too much good
> quality free support cuts into that business, just my opinion.
>
> Until people are willing to just deal with that head on and honestly
> then this subject tends to deteriorate quickly.
Apologies if this ought to be clear to me, but are you proposing:
1. AOOo sets up support forums (or lists) exclusively related to its own activities
2. AOOo collaborates with other OpenOffice community projects such as LibreOffice over this
3. We do neither of these and allow spontaneous self-support to develop elsewhere?
Thanks
S.
Re: User support: beyond forums or lists
Posted by drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>.
> <snip>
> So far the LibreOffice project has avoided creating support forums that "compete" with the openoffice.org lists; would it be smart to explore a way to have this broader, collaborative support in place?
I would not characterize it quite that way - LibreOffice has taken the
same path that OO.o took, which is to say they have eschewed web based
support, and that TTBOMK had nothing to do with not wanting to compete
with OO.o forums.
This leads to un-official forums opening (likely would anyway, IMO),
indeed there are already multiple LibreOffice web forums up and running
(with one already showing signs of failing) - TDF leaders refuses to
acknowledge these as being part of the 'community' just as the OO.o
leadership did in the past.
Finally and I'm sorry to say this but much of this conversation IMO ends
up coming down to money - folks want support contracts and too much good
quality free support cuts into that business, just my opinion.
Until people are willing to just deal with that head on and honestly
then this subject tends to deteriorate quickly.
//drew
Re: User support: beyond forums or lists
Posted by Simon Phipps <si...@webmink.com>.
On 24 Aug 2011, at 00:20, Rob Weir wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 7:05 PM, Jean Weber <je...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It's clear to me that we need to do better than we have in the user support area, if we can do so. Not only will that benefit users and improve our reputation, it will allow us to work smarter, not harder. I will pursue this, along with other interested people. It's something valuable that I can do while the techies are moving websites and working with code etc.
>>
>> Setting up a suitable system and populating it with suitable information will be a big task and take quite awhile, especially if we don't have enough skilled people to do it. (I'm referring to content, not infrastructure.) All the more reason to get started now with planning what we want to do, so we can start doing it ASAP.
>>
>
> A system like this is a big investment. It is not easy. In fact, it
> probably would not be doable unless we collaborated with LibreOffice
> and related products on this. But I think it is worth the investment.
> Glad to help in any way I can.
That would be an interesting proposal. We seem to have skipped the discussion about whether AOOo actually wants to aspire to having a full-scale consumer binary product and all the support requirements that go with it. So far the LibreOffice project has avoided creating support forums that "compete" with the openoffice.org lists; would it be smart to explore a way to have this broader, collaborative support in place?
S.
Re: User support: beyond forums or lists
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 7:05 PM, Jean Weber <je...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've started a new thread, because I think Rob Weir's very important point has got lost in the discussions about forums and lists. Rob wrote:
>
>> Support is important. The question is
>> how best to do it. If all we're doing is considering the merits of
>> different access methods to support, without looking at the
>> implications of fragmenting the repositories and the resulting
>> knowledge base, then we are doing a poor job at thinking this through.
>> Remember the best support site is the one that allows the user to
>> answer their own question, without signing up for a mailing list or
>> posting to a forum. We should be looking at how we can prevent user
>> support questions.
>
> This ties in closely with end-user documentation and how it is delivered, so I am very interested in this topic. Later today I'll go through the archives of this list to find the earlier discussions, which I believe occurred while I was traveling and thus weren't given enough of my attention at the time. Or, have ideas and suggestions, perhaps examples of good practice, been posted to the wiki? Apple is IMO a brilliant example, but they have a lot of resources
>
Thanks for that. In some sense we're currently debating whether we do
user support like it was 1990 (mailing lists) or 2000 (forums). But
we should probably look at what the state-of-the-art is today.
The earlier thread you had in mind might have been this one:
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.apache.incubator.ooo.devel/461
The proposal was to look at collaborative Q&A sites, such as those
built on the Stack Exchange platform. These scale particularly well,
since everyone, via their votes and tagging, helps rate and organize
the questions and answers. So the information improves with
contributions from questioners, from answers but also by the ratings
and tagging of later readers. That is something that neither mailing
lists nor forums can do.
Those with additional rights, the moderators, have additional
abilities to move and redirect questions. These kinds of sites also
has a point-based social reward system that encourages participation.
This can be key for attracting and retaining power users, by allowing
them to gain peer recognition for their contributions.
> It's clear to me that we need to do better than we have in the user support area, if we can do so. Not only will that benefit users and improve our reputation, it will allow us to work smarter, not harder. I will pursue this, along with other interested people. It's something valuable that I can do while the techies are moving websites and working with code etc.
>
> Setting up a suitable system and populating it with suitable information will be a big task and take quite awhile, especially if we don't have enough skilled people to do it. (I'm referring to content, not infrastructure.) All the more reason to get started now with planning what we want to do, so we can start doing it ASAP.
>
A system like this is a big investment. It is not easy. In fact, it
probably would not be doable unless we collaborated with LibreOffice
and related products on this. But I think it is worth the investment.
Glad to help in any way I can.
-Rob
> BTW, the Docs mailing list at OOo gets quite a few enquiries from people wanting to contribute, and a few of them sound like they have relevant experience and skills. I don't want to lose them. Yes, we point them to this list as well as ODFAuthors, but I don't know how many have actually joined. If we're actively discussing topics of interest to documenters, perhaps more people can be persuaded to get involved.
>
> --Jean
Re: User support: beyond forums or lists
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 7:18 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
> It can be hard to find the Tuna with all the Herrings tossed around :-D
>
Hey, even a broken clock is right twice a day. I was overdue ;-)
-Rob
> On Aug 23, 2011, at 4:05 PM, Jean Weber wrote:
>
>> I've started a new thread, because I think Rob Weir's very important point has got lost in the discussions about forums and lists. Rob wrote:
>>
>>> Support is important. The question is
>>> how best to do it. If all we're doing is considering the merits of
>>> different access methods to support, without looking at the
>>> implications of fragmenting the repositories and the resulting
>>> knowledge base, then we are doing a poor job at thinking this through.
>>> Remember the best support site is the one that allows the user to
>>> answer their own question, without signing up for a mailing list or
>>> posting to a forum. We should be looking at how we can prevent user
>>> support questions.
>>
>> This ties in closely with end-user documentation and how it is delivered, so I am very interested in this topic. Later today I'll go through the archives of this list to find the earlier discussions, which I believe occurred while I was traveling and thus weren't given enough of my attention at the time. Or, have ideas and suggestions, perhaps examples of good practice, been posted to the wiki? Apple is IMO a brilliant example, but they have a lot of resources
>>
>> It's clear to me that we need to do better than we have in the user support area, if we can do so. Not only will that benefit users and improve our reputation, it will allow us to work smarter, not harder. I will pursue this, along with other interested people. It's something valuable that I can do while the techies are moving websites and working with code etc.
>>
>> Setting up a suitable system and populating it with suitable information will be a big task and take quite awhile, especially if we don't have enough skilled people to do it. (I'm referring to content, not infrastructure.) All the more reason to get started now with planning what we want to do, so we can start doing it ASAP.
>>
>> BTW, the Docs mailing list at OOo gets quite a few enquiries from people wanting to contribute, and a few of them sound like they have relevant experience and skills. I don't want to lose them. Yes, we point them to this list as well as ODFAuthors, but I don't know how many have actually joined. If we're actively discussing topics of interest to documenters, perhaps more people can be persuaded to get involved.
>>
>> --Jean
>
>
Re: User support: beyond forums or lists
Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
It can be hard to find the Tuna with all the Herrings tossed around :-D
On Aug 23, 2011, at 4:05 PM, Jean Weber wrote:
> I've started a new thread, because I think Rob Weir's very important point has got lost in the discussions about forums and lists. Rob wrote:
>
>> Support is important. The question is
>> how best to do it. If all we're doing is considering the merits of
>> different access methods to support, without looking at the
>> implications of fragmenting the repositories and the resulting
>> knowledge base, then we are doing a poor job at thinking this through.
>> Remember the best support site is the one that allows the user to
>> answer their own question, without signing up for a mailing list or
>> posting to a forum. We should be looking at how we can prevent user
>> support questions.
>
> This ties in closely with end-user documentation and how it is delivered, so I am very interested in this topic. Later today I'll go through the archives of this list to find the earlier discussions, which I believe occurred while I was traveling and thus weren't given enough of my attention at the time. Or, have ideas and suggestions, perhaps examples of good practice, been posted to the wiki? Apple is IMO a brilliant example, but they have a lot of resources
>
> It's clear to me that we need to do better than we have in the user support area, if we can do so. Not only will that benefit users and improve our reputation, it will allow us to work smarter, not harder. I will pursue this, along with other interested people. It's something valuable that I can do while the techies are moving websites and working with code etc.
>
> Setting up a suitable system and populating it with suitable information will be a big task and take quite awhile, especially if we don't have enough skilled people to do it. (I'm referring to content, not infrastructure.) All the more reason to get started now with planning what we want to do, so we can start doing it ASAP.
>
> BTW, the Docs mailing list at OOo gets quite a few enquiries from people wanting to contribute, and a few of them sound like they have relevant experience and skills. I don't want to lose them. Yes, we point them to this list as well as ODFAuthors, but I don't know how many have actually joined. If we're actively discussing topics of interest to documenters, perhaps more people can be persuaded to get involved.
>
> --Jean
Re: User support: beyond forums or lists
Posted by drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>.
On Wed, 2011-08-24 at 12:40 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 9:30 PM, drew <dr...@baseanswers.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, 2011-08-24 at 09:05 +1000, Jean Weber wrote:
> >> I've started a new thread, because I think Rob Weir's very important point has got lost in the discussions about forums and lists. Rob wrote:
> >>
> >> > Support is important. The question is
> >> > how best to do it. If all we're doing is considering the merits of
> >> > different access methods to support, without looking at the
> >> > implications of fragmenting the repositories and the resulting
> >> > knowledge base, then we are doing a poor job at thinking this through.
> >> > Remember the best support site is the one that allows the user to
> >> > answer their own question, without signing up for a mailing list or
> >> > posting to a forum. We should be looking at how we can prevent user
> >> > support questions.
> >>
> >> This ties in closely with end-user documentation and how it is delivered, so I am very interested in this topic. Later today I'll go through the archives of this list to find the earlier discussions, which I believe occurred while I was traveling and thus weren't given enough of my attention at the time. Or, have ideas and suggestions, perhaps examples of good practice, been posted to the wiki? Apple is IMO a brilliant example, but they have a lot of resources
> >>
> >> It's clear to me that we need to do better than we have in the user support area, if we can do so. Not only will that benefit users and improve our reputation, it will allow us to work smarter, not harder. I will pursue this, along with other interested people. It's something valuable that I can do while the techies are moving websites and working with code etc.
> >>
> >> Setting up a suitable system and populating it with suitable information will be a big task and take quite awhile, especially if we don't have enough skilled people to do it. (I'm referring to content, not infrastructure.) All the more reason to get started now with planning what we want to do, so we can start doing it ASAP.
> >>
> >> BTW, the Docs mailing list at OOo gets quite a few enquiries from people wanting to contribute, and a few of them sound like they have relevant experience and skills. I don't want to lose them. Yes, we point them to this list as well as ODFAuthors, but I don't know how many have actually joined. If we're actively discussing topics of interest to documenters, perhaps more people can be persuaded to get involved.
> >
> >
> > Hi Jean,
> >
> > Before I let another thread slide away from view - I agree completely
> > with approaching this with a unified view of user support, not just
> > stove pipes for different delivery vehicles.
> >
>
> Does anyone have a sense for how far we can take this by extending
> phpBB? It looks like we've already enhanced it quite a bit.
>
> In other words, is phpBB the best way forward? Is it easy to hack?
> For example, do we think it would be possible to eventually add
> collaborative features like question/answer ranking, etc.?
hmm - one of 'those' questions.
There are a good number of such mod's available for this from the pbpBB
team site.
There is the KDE brainstorming site
http://forum.kde.org/brainstorm.php#cat83
This is custom coded pbpBB - a few years back I spoke with the admin's
there and they made it clear they would be happy to share the code.
//drew
Re: User support: beyond forums or lists
Posted by drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>.
On Wed, 2011-08-24 at 18:19 +0100, Rory O'Farrell wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Aug 2011 12:40:56 -0400
> Rob Weir <ro...@robweir.com> wrote:
>
> > Does anyone have a sense for how far we can take this by extending
> > phpBB? It looks like we've already enhanced it quite a bit.
> >
> > In other words, is phpBB the best way forward? Is it easy to hack?
> > For example, do we think it would be possible to eventually add
> > collaborative features like question/answer ranking, etc.?
>
> Posters to this thread might find it useful to view two forums dealing with OpenOffice
>
> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/
> and
> http://www.oooforum.org/
>
> both using phpBB and staffed by an active range of volunteers, some with moderator and/or admin rights.
>
> >From these you will get an idea of the capabilities of forums.
There are many forums actually.
oooforum has been up and running going on 11 years now, UnitedLayer in
San Francisco, CA has hosted the site the entire time. English only. I
wasn't there so don't know what the problem was but when OO.o started
the owner wanted to work in the community but was not able to get the
OO.o side to agree so went independent.
Actually, the folks that started the user.services forum all came from
ooofourm.org, being either moderators or heavy posters there. A few of
the moderators still fill the role at both sites.
oooforum runs a highly modified version of phpBB 2.0, which is no longer
supported by the pbpBB team, so they are on there own for things like
security updates.
user.services runs a (comparatively) lightly modified version of pbpBB
3.x, and stays very much in the release cycles, both version updates and
security updates from the pbpBB team. With the update that Terry did on
the migration to the Apache servers this should be the last of the 3.x
releases. 4.0 is in the works (one major update will be the search
engine used with 4.0 offering use of a sphinx engine vs the custom php
search code, IIRC).
Additional fori:
http://www.openoffice.cz/forum (Drupal with a forum module)
http://www.oooforum.dk/ (phpBB 2.x)
http://de.openoffice.info/ (pbpBB 3.x)
http://www.openofficeorg.no/Forumsider/ (Simple machines)
http://ooo-portal.de/index.php?module=pnForum&func=main (pbp2.0.1)
[the owner of that site is then opened, I thini I have that right]
http://lo-portal.de/forum/index.html (Joomla forum module)
http://www.openoffice-forum.de/ again phbBB 3.x. and again the owners
have opened a LibreOffice specific forum also.
There is http://www.staroffice.org/ which links for forums to
user.services.oo.o.
The French and Polish language forums at user.services where once
independent forums, in the case of the Fr it moved to the user.services
site the first year it was open, the independent Polish forum has since
closed.
There was, may still be, a Chinese forum (using a modified moins moins
wiki for the forum) but I can't find it anymore, a Brazilian Portuguese
forum I forget what that was running and I don't know that it is still
active but might be.
A French-Canadian forum opened and died, well morphed into a blog IIRC.
There was a few others that have come and gone also.
Of course there are distribution forums for OO.o (Launchpad Answers for
Ubuntu, etc) but this makes sense of course.
Then we could look at tutorials - it's fewer sites but pretty much the
same picture.
i think I hit most of them.
//drew
Re: User support: beyond forums or lists
Posted by Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>.
On Wed, 24 Aug 2011 12:40:56 -0400
Rob Weir <ro...@robweir.com> wrote:
> Does anyone have a sense for how far we can take this by extending
> phpBB? It looks like we've already enhanced it quite a bit.
>
> In other words, is phpBB the best way forward? Is it easy to hack?
> For example, do we think it would be possible to eventually add
> collaborative features like question/answer ranking, etc.?
Posters to this thread might find it useful to view two forums dealing with OpenOffice
http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/
and
http://www.oooforum.org/
both using phpBB and staffed by an active range of volunteers, some with moderator and/or admin rights.
>From these you will get an idea of the capabilities of forums.
--
Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
Re: User support: beyond forums or lists
Posted by drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>.
On Wed, 2011-08-24 at 13:26 -0400, TJ Frazier wrote:
> On 8/24/2011 12:40, Rob Weir wrote:
> > On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 9:30 PM, drew<dr...@baseanswers.com> wrote:
> >> On Wed, 2011-08-24 at 09:05 +1000, Jean Weber wrote:
> >>> I've started a new thread, because I think Rob Weir's very important point has got lost in the discussions about forums and lists. Rob wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Support is important. The question is
> >>>> how best to do it. If all we're doing is considering the merits of
> >>>> different access methods to support, without looking at the
> >>>> implications of fragmenting the repositories and the resulting
> >>>> knowledge base, then we are doing a poor job at thinking this through.
> >>>> Remember the best support site is the one that allows the user to
> >>>> answer their own question, without signing up for a mailing list or
> >>>> posting to a forum. We should be looking at how we can prevent user
> >>>> support questions.
> >>>
> >>> This ties in closely with end-user documentation and how it is delivered, so I am very interested in this topic. Later today I'll go through the archives of this list to find the earlier discussions, which I believe occurred while I was traveling and thus weren't given enough of my attention at the time. Or, have ideas and suggestions, perhaps examples of good practice, been posted to the wiki? Apple is IMO a brilliant example, but they have a lot of resources
> >>>
> >>> It's clear to me that we need to do better than we have in the user support area, if we can do so. Not only will that benefit users and improve our reputation, it will allow us to work smarter, not harder. I will pursue this, along with other interested people. It's something valuable that I can do while the techies are moving websites and working with code etc.
> >>>
> >>> Setting up a suitable system and populating it with suitable information will be a big task and take quite awhile, especially if we don't have enough skilled people to do it. (I'm referring to content, not infrastructure.) All the more reason to get started now with planning what we want to do, so we can start doing it ASAP.
> >>>
> >>> BTW, the Docs mailing list at OOo gets quite a few enquiries from people wanting to contribute, and a few of them sound like they have relevant experience and skills. I don't want to lose them. Yes, we point them to this list as well as ODFAuthors, but I don't know how many have actually joined. If we're actively discussing topics of interest to documenters, perhaps more people can be persuaded to get involved.
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi Jean,
> >>
> >> Before I let another thread slide away from view - I agree completely
> >> with approaching this with a unified view of user support, not just
> >> stove pipes for different delivery vehicles.
> >>
> >
> > Does anyone have a sense for how far we can take this by extending
> > phpBB? It looks like we've already enhanced it quite a bit.
> >
> > In other words, is phpBB the best way forward? Is it easy to hack?
> > For example, do we think it would be possible to eventually add
> > collaborative features like question/answer ranking, etc.?
> >
> >
> >> //drew
> >
> Not quite on topic, here, but re hacking forum code:
> We have a divide between support users (who prefer forums) and support
> providers (who prefer email).
Not at all - there are some who prefer email and they tend not to be on
the forum, so lets not mix apples and oranges.
> How well could forum code provide
> email-like interaction for the providers? E.g., Email for new topics /
> comments of interest; link for fast reply entry. Email /for/ entry? Some
> of this is probably available already. Design input from providers would
> be nice.
>
Re: User support: beyond forums or lists
Posted by Andreas Säger <vi...@t-online.de>.
Am 24.08.2011 21:50, TJ Frazier wrote:
> (1) With email, the questions come to you, according to your filters
> &c., and you can read them at your convenience. With fora, you have to
> log in and go looking, and may find nothing.
>
No login required.
Index page >> "View unanswered posts":
> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/search.php?search_id=unanswered
I use to use on the index page: "View active topics":
> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/search.php?search_id=active_topics
What you see is a list of all topics in all public subforums having the
most recent additions. Unanswered topics are the ones with 0 replies.
When you're logged-in, the topics with your contributions have a little
star in the icon.
Being logged-in, "View new posts(12)":
> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/search.php?search_id=newposts
shows the topics with new posts you did not read yet until the previous
log-in.
"View unread posts"
> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/search.php?search_id=unreadposts
shows topics you never touched.
> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ucp.php?i=attachments&mode=attachments&sk=f&sd=d
shows a listing with all my attachments, including hyperlinks to the
topics where they have been attached, how often they have been
viewed/downloaded
> (2) With email, you can reply with one click or so, quite independent of
> how long it takes you to come up with the answer. With fora, if you can
> answer off the top of your head, you are again only one click away from
> the reply. But, if you need to do some research, you must bookmark the
> question in some fashion, and then get back to it later (lots of clicks).
>
Being logged-in, you click a quote button in the posting you want to
quote. While writing you can also select some snippet in the history and
click the same button to insert the snippet as quote including a prefix
"user_name wrote:".
The HTML-like PHP formatting tags together with screenshots are
particularly useful.
- Code is really readable and scrollable in separate code blocks.
- Hyperlinks have an URL and an optional human readable text.
- There is room for off topic personal messages with attachments and
everything.
- Attached example documents allow us to develop really complex
solutions without wasting too much time with misunderstandings and
describing things. Quite often a new tutorial evolve from such intense
discussions about non-obvious use cases. All tutorials are easy to find
and easy to link in their separate sub-forums.
The overall technical level of forum discussions is much higher than on
any user mailing list.
All threads are lined up in a one-dimensional time line which becomes a
problem when a thread becomes really long while being still on topic.
Usually the moderators split all off-topic and spam to separate topics
or quarantine respectively. This way most users will not see most of the
rubbish and splitting up an existing topic is possible at any time
because all users see the same hierarchy rather than their individual
message copies.
Moderators can lock a topic for further replies.
The group of voluteers can read and write internal messages in subforums
that are hidden to guests and logged-in users. They also tag
inappropriate posts so they are found easily by the moderators.
An ego-search with keywords is possible at any time without log-in.
> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/search.php
For really complex searching I recommend a domain search with google.
This is a built-in chronological ego-search for a logged-in user:
> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/search.php?search_id=egosearch
You can specify for each single topic if you want to be notified by
email or not when the topic receives new messages and/or when you get a
personal message.
Hope this helps a little.
Re: User support: beyond forums or lists
Posted by TJ Frazier <tj...@cfl.rr.com>.
Hi, Andreas,
On 8/24/2011 14:03, Andreas Säger wrote:
> Am 24.08.2011 19:26, TJ Frazier wrote:
>
>> Not quite on topic, here, but re hacking forum code:
>> We have a divide between support users (who prefer forums) and support
>> providers (who prefer email). How well could forum code provide
>> email-like interaction for the providers? E.g., Email for new topics /
>> comments of interest; link for fast reply entry. Email /for/ entry? Some
>> of this is probably available already. Design input from providers would
>> be nice.
>>
>
>
> Please define "email-like interaction".
>
Let me try not to be too specific, because I don't want to specify a
design. It would be better if a good designer (which I am not), with
user input, did that, assuming that the idea gains any traction.
There seem to be two activities of answer-providers which are distinctly
different, according to whether we are talking "forum" or "mailing
list": (1) finding questions and (2) posting replies.
(1) With email, the questions come to you, according to your filters
&c., and you can read them at your convenience. With fora, you have to
log in and go looking, and may find nothing.
(2) With email, you can reply with one click or so, quite independent of
how long it takes you to come up with the answer. With fora, if you can
answer off the top of your head, you are again only one click away from
the reply. But, if you need to do some research, you must bookmark the
question in some fashion, and then get back to it later (lots of clicks).
If another provider posts an answer while you're thinking, then with
email you should get a nicely-threaded missive with that answer. That
may save your doing the research at all, or just limit your response to
something like adding a useful link. With fora, you don't find that out
until you log in again, ready with your answer.
Getting down to small things, with email you are using your old friend,
the email-client editor. With fora, the editors are just one more piece
of software to remember: "How does it work on /this/ forum?"
The whole idea really needs input from some forum-adverse experts, who
could say whether these — or other — features would attract their support.
--
/tj/
P.S.: See Donald Whytock's suggestion on this thread, about a
"forumesque" interface for ML archives. Sounds brilliant to me. -/tj/
Re: User support: beyond forums or lists
Posted by Andreas Säger <vi...@t-online.de>.
Am 24.08.2011 19:26, TJ Frazier wrote:
> Not quite on topic, here, but re hacking forum code:
> We have a divide between support users (who prefer forums) and support
> providers (who prefer email). How well could forum code provide
> email-like interaction for the providers? E.g., Email for new topics /
> comments of interest; link for fast reply entry. Email /for/ entry? Some
> of this is probably available already. Design input from providers would
> be nice.
>
Please define "email-like interaction".
Re: User support: beyond forums or lists
Posted by Simon Phipps <si...@webmink.com>.
On 24 Aug 2011, at 19:59, Donald Whytock wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 1:26 PM, TJ Frazier <tj...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
>> How well could forum code provide email-like
>> interaction for the providers? E.g., Email for new topics / comments of
>> interest; link for fast reply entry. Email /for/ entry? Some of this is
>> probably available already. Design input from providers would be nice.
>
> I think someone already asked this, but what about the inverse of
> this? A forum-like interface for email? I personally think the
> current Apache email archive interface is atrocious...it doesn't even
> have a search function.
>
> If a sufficiently forumesque interface were added to Apache mailing
> lists, with form-based subscriptions, it might be acceptable to a lot
> of users.
We had this at OpenSolaris. Our experience was that, due to the difference in cultural outlooks of forum and e-mail users, this became very unpleasant for both groups who annoyed each other intensely with their differing approaches to communication.
S.
Re: User support: beyond forums or lists
Posted by Donald Whytock <dw...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 1:26 PM, TJ Frazier <tj...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
> How well could forum code provide email-like
> interaction for the providers? E.g., Email for new topics / comments of
> interest; link for fast reply entry. Email /for/ entry? Some of this is
> probably available already. Design input from providers would be nice.
I think someone already asked this, but what about the inverse of
this? A forum-like interface for email? I personally think the
current Apache email archive interface is atrocious...it doesn't even
have a search function.
If a sufficiently forumesque interface were added to Apache mailing
lists, with form-based subscriptions, it might be acceptable to a lot
of users.
Don
Re: User support: beyond forums or lists
Posted by TJ Frazier <tj...@cfl.rr.com>.
On 8/24/2011 12:40, Rob Weir wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 9:30 PM, drew<dr...@baseanswers.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 2011-08-24 at 09:05 +1000, Jean Weber wrote:
>>> I've started a new thread, because I think Rob Weir's very important point has got lost in the discussions about forums and lists. Rob wrote:
>>>
>>>> Support is important. The question is
>>>> how best to do it. If all we're doing is considering the merits of
>>>> different access methods to support, without looking at the
>>>> implications of fragmenting the repositories and the resulting
>>>> knowledge base, then we are doing a poor job at thinking this through.
>>>> Remember the best support site is the one that allows the user to
>>>> answer their own question, without signing up for a mailing list or
>>>> posting to a forum. We should be looking at how we can prevent user
>>>> support questions.
>>>
>>> This ties in closely with end-user documentation and how it is delivered, so I am very interested in this topic. Later today I'll go through the archives of this list to find the earlier discussions, which I believe occurred while I was traveling and thus weren't given enough of my attention at the time. Or, have ideas and suggestions, perhaps examples of good practice, been posted to the wiki? Apple is IMO a brilliant example, but they have a lot of resources
>>>
>>> It's clear to me that we need to do better than we have in the user support area, if we can do so. Not only will that benefit users and improve our reputation, it will allow us to work smarter, not harder. I will pursue this, along with other interested people. It's something valuable that I can do while the techies are moving websites and working with code etc.
>>>
>>> Setting up a suitable system and populating it with suitable information will be a big task and take quite awhile, especially if we don't have enough skilled people to do it. (I'm referring to content, not infrastructure.) All the more reason to get started now with planning what we want to do, so we can start doing it ASAP.
>>>
>>> BTW, the Docs mailing list at OOo gets quite a few enquiries from people wanting to contribute, and a few of them sound like they have relevant experience and skills. I don't want to lose them. Yes, we point them to this list as well as ODFAuthors, but I don't know how many have actually joined. If we're actively discussing topics of interest to documenters, perhaps more people can be persuaded to get involved.
>>
>>
>> Hi Jean,
>>
>> Before I let another thread slide away from view - I agree completely
>> with approaching this with a unified view of user support, not just
>> stove pipes for different delivery vehicles.
>>
>
> Does anyone have a sense for how far we can take this by extending
> phpBB? It looks like we've already enhanced it quite a bit.
>
> In other words, is phpBB the best way forward? Is it easy to hack?
> For example, do we think it would be possible to eventually add
> collaborative features like question/answer ranking, etc.?
>
>
>> //drew
>
Not quite on topic, here, but re hacking forum code:
We have a divide between support users (who prefer forums) and support
providers (who prefer email). How well could forum code provide
email-like interaction for the providers? E.g., Email for new topics /
comments of interest; link for fast reply entry. Email /for/ entry? Some
of this is probably available already. Design input from providers would
be nice.
--
/tj/
Re: User support: beyond forums or lists
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@robweir.com>.
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 9:30 PM, drew <dr...@baseanswers.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 2011-08-24 at 09:05 +1000, Jean Weber wrote:
>> I've started a new thread, because I think Rob Weir's very important point has got lost in the discussions about forums and lists. Rob wrote:
>>
>> > Support is important. The question is
>> > how best to do it. If all we're doing is considering the merits of
>> > different access methods to support, without looking at the
>> > implications of fragmenting the repositories and the resulting
>> > knowledge base, then we are doing a poor job at thinking this through.
>> > Remember the best support site is the one that allows the user to
>> > answer their own question, without signing up for a mailing list or
>> > posting to a forum. We should be looking at how we can prevent user
>> > support questions.
>>
>> This ties in closely with end-user documentation and how it is delivered, so I am very interested in this topic. Later today I'll go through the archives of this list to find the earlier discussions, which I believe occurred while I was traveling and thus weren't given enough of my attention at the time. Or, have ideas and suggestions, perhaps examples of good practice, been posted to the wiki? Apple is IMO a brilliant example, but they have a lot of resources
>>
>> It's clear to me that we need to do better than we have in the user support area, if we can do so. Not only will that benefit users and improve our reputation, it will allow us to work smarter, not harder. I will pursue this, along with other interested people. It's something valuable that I can do while the techies are moving websites and working with code etc.
>>
>> Setting up a suitable system and populating it with suitable information will be a big task and take quite awhile, especially if we don't have enough skilled people to do it. (I'm referring to content, not infrastructure.) All the more reason to get started now with planning what we want to do, so we can start doing it ASAP.
>>
>> BTW, the Docs mailing list at OOo gets quite a few enquiries from people wanting to contribute, and a few of them sound like they have relevant experience and skills. I don't want to lose them. Yes, we point them to this list as well as ODFAuthors, but I don't know how many have actually joined. If we're actively discussing topics of interest to documenters, perhaps more people can be persuaded to get involved.
>
>
> Hi Jean,
>
> Before I let another thread slide away from view - I agree completely
> with approaching this with a unified view of user support, not just
> stove pipes for different delivery vehicles.
>
Does anyone have a sense for how far we can take this by extending
phpBB? It looks like we've already enhanced it quite a bit.
In other words, is phpBB the best way forward? Is it easy to hack?
For example, do we think it would be possible to eventually add
collaborative features like question/answer ranking, etc.?
> //drew
>
>
Re: User support: beyond forums or lists
Posted by Simon Phipps <si...@webmink.com>.
On 24 Aug 2011, at 13:39, Ian Lynch wrote:
>>
>
> To add to this, we are currently engaged to train staff in a large training
> company in South America that wants OpenOffice certification for end users
> initially in schools. In practice this certification is equally applicable
> to LibreOffice and OpenOffice - I suspect the request for OpenOffice is
> simply a brand awareness thing. Since we are doing this in collaboration
> with the OpenOffice.org certification project why not make this a joint
> LibO/OOo issue? All we need do is put a LibO logo on the certificate if the
> candidate uses LibO to meet the assessment criteria and an OOo logo on the
> certificate if it is OpenOffice. We can keep track of the certificates
> issued and contribute back to either project on the basis of the number of
> certificates. We can modify the documentation to carry both names. To me
> this seems a way of promoting user support and awareness for both
> communities in a way that helps both. I'm applying lazy consensus here in
> that if there are no objections I'll start a new thread with a specific
> proposal but of course we will also need a +1 from the LibO people.
TDF has just revised the trademark rules for LibreOffice and I suspect what you're proposing would fit them well - worth mentioning over in their discuss@ list though.
S.
Re: User support: beyond forums or lists
Posted by Ian Lynch <ia...@gmail.com>.
On 24 August 2011 13:46, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 8:39 AM, Ian Lynch <ia...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 24 August 2011 02:30, drew <dr...@baseanswers.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, 2011-08-24 at 09:05 +1000, Jean Weber wrote:
> >> > I've started a new thread, because I think Rob Weir's very important
> >> point has got lost in the discussions about forums and lists. Rob wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Support is important. The question is
> >> > > how best to do it. If all we're doing is considering the merits of
> >> > > different access methods to support, without looking at the
> >> > > implications of fragmenting the repositories and the resulting
> >> > > knowledge base, then we are doing a poor job at thinking this
> through.
> >> > > Remember the best support site is the one that allows the user to
> >> > > answer their own question, without signing up for a mailing list or
> >> > > posting to a forum. We should be looking at how we can prevent user
> >> > > support questions.
> >> >
> >> > This ties in closely with end-user documentation and how it is
> delivered,
> >> so I am very interested in this topic. Later today I'll go through the
> >> archives of this list to find the earlier discussions, which I believe
> >> occurred while I was traveling and thus weren't given enough of my
> attention
> >> at the time. Or, have ideas and suggestions, perhaps examples of good
> >> practice, been posted to the wiki? Apple is IMO a brilliant example, but
> >> they have a lot of resources
> >> >
> >> > It's clear to me that we need to do better than we have in the user
> >> support area, if we can do so. Not only will that benefit users and
> improve
> >> our reputation, it will allow us to work smarter, not harder. I will
> pursue
> >> this, along with other interested people. It's something valuable that I
> can
> >> do while the techies are moving websites and working with code etc.
> >> >
> >> > Setting up a suitable system and populating it with suitable
> information
> >> will be a big task and take quite awhile, especially if we don't have
> enough
> >> skilled people to do it. (I'm referring to content, not infrastructure.)
> All
> >> the more reason to get started now with planning what we want to do, so
> we
> >> can start doing it ASAP.
> >> >
> >> > BTW, the Docs mailing list at OOo gets quite a few enquiries from
> people
> >> wanting to contribute, and a few of them sound like they have relevant
> >> experience and skills. I don't want to lose them. Yes, we point them to
> this
> >> list as well as ODFAuthors, but I don't know how many have actually
> joined.
> >> If we're actively discussing topics of interest to documenters, perhaps
> more
> >> people can be persuaded to get involved.
> >>
> >> Hi Jean,
> >>
> >> Before I let another thread slide away from view - I agree completely
> >> with approaching this with a unified view of user support, not just
> >> stove pipes for different delivery vehicles.
> >>
> >
> > To add to this, we are currently engaged to train staff in a large
> training
> > company in South America that wants OpenOffice certification for end
> users
> > initially in schools. In practice this certification is equally
> applicable
> > to LibreOffice and OpenOffice - I suspect the request for OpenOffice is
> > simply a brand awareness thing. Since we are doing this in collaboration
> > with the OpenOffice.org certification project why not make this a joint
> > LibO/OOo issue? All we need do is put a LibO logo on the certificate if
> the
> > candidate uses LibO to meet the assessment criteria and an OOo logo on
> the
> > certificate if it is OpenOffice. We can keep track of the certificates
> > issued and contribute back to either project on the basis of the number
> of
> > certificates. We can modify the documentation to carry both names. To me
> > this seems a way of promoting user support and awareness for both
> > communities in a way that helps both. I'm applying lazy consensus here in
> > that if there are no objections I'll start a new thread with a specific
> > proposal but of course we will also need a +1 from the LibO people.
> >
>
> If I understand correctly (and do stop me if I'm missing something)
> the only thing you needed from the AOOo project was permission to use
> the logo.
Yes, and even this is possible a nominative use issue, I'm not certain that
is all. I got that impression when Oracle gave permission to use the OOo
brand names etc on the certificate.
> The AOOo project was not awarding the certificates,
> designing the training materials, etc.
No, in fact it would not be allowed to award the certificates as they carry
the UK regulators logo and you have to be a regulated awarding organisation
to do that. This is why it is better in this field to have close cooperation
rather than try and set up such systems direct from Apache or LibO
> If so, I don't see any
> problems if your materials carry multiple logos, names. That should
> not require additional permission from us, beyond permission to use
> the AOOo logo.
>
It would be nice though to be fully transparent and a point where we can
(hopefully) get easy agreement publicly on something shared with the LibO
community. There is no risk or liability for either community as far as I
can see but there are benefits. So like with Jean and the documentation it
makes a starting point for building further bridges. I have talked about
certification with tdf members informally so I don't think there should be a
problem.
--
Ian
Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ)
www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940
The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth,
Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and
Wales.
Re: User support: beyond forums or lists
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 8:39 AM, Ian Lynch <ia...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 24 August 2011 02:30, drew <dr...@baseanswers.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 2011-08-24 at 09:05 +1000, Jean Weber wrote:
>> > I've started a new thread, because I think Rob Weir's very important
>> point has got lost in the discussions about forums and lists. Rob wrote:
>> >
>> > > Support is important. The question is
>> > > how best to do it. If all we're doing is considering the merits of
>> > > different access methods to support, without looking at the
>> > > implications of fragmenting the repositories and the resulting
>> > > knowledge base, then we are doing a poor job at thinking this through.
>> > > Remember the best support site is the one that allows the user to
>> > > answer their own question, without signing up for a mailing list or
>> > > posting to a forum. We should be looking at how we can prevent user
>> > > support questions.
>> >
>> > This ties in closely with end-user documentation and how it is delivered,
>> so I am very interested in this topic. Later today I'll go through the
>> archives of this list to find the earlier discussions, which I believe
>> occurred while I was traveling and thus weren't given enough of my attention
>> at the time. Or, have ideas and suggestions, perhaps examples of good
>> practice, been posted to the wiki? Apple is IMO a brilliant example, but
>> they have a lot of resources
>> >
>> > It's clear to me that we need to do better than we have in the user
>> support area, if we can do so. Not only will that benefit users and improve
>> our reputation, it will allow us to work smarter, not harder. I will pursue
>> this, along with other interested people. It's something valuable that I can
>> do while the techies are moving websites and working with code etc.
>> >
>> > Setting up a suitable system and populating it with suitable information
>> will be a big task and take quite awhile, especially if we don't have enough
>> skilled people to do it. (I'm referring to content, not infrastructure.) All
>> the more reason to get started now with planning what we want to do, so we
>> can start doing it ASAP.
>> >
>> > BTW, the Docs mailing list at OOo gets quite a few enquiries from people
>> wanting to contribute, and a few of them sound like they have relevant
>> experience and skills. I don't want to lose them. Yes, we point them to this
>> list as well as ODFAuthors, but I don't know how many have actually joined.
>> If we're actively discussing topics of interest to documenters, perhaps more
>> people can be persuaded to get involved.
>>
>> Hi Jean,
>>
>> Before I let another thread slide away from view - I agree completely
>> with approaching this with a unified view of user support, not just
>> stove pipes for different delivery vehicles.
>>
>
> To add to this, we are currently engaged to train staff in a large training
> company in South America that wants OpenOffice certification for end users
> initially in schools. In practice this certification is equally applicable
> to LibreOffice and OpenOffice - I suspect the request for OpenOffice is
> simply a brand awareness thing. Since we are doing this in collaboration
> with the OpenOffice.org certification project why not make this a joint
> LibO/OOo issue? All we need do is put a LibO logo on the certificate if the
> candidate uses LibO to meet the assessment criteria and an OOo logo on the
> certificate if it is OpenOffice. We can keep track of the certificates
> issued and contribute back to either project on the basis of the number of
> certificates. We can modify the documentation to carry both names. To me
> this seems a way of promoting user support and awareness for both
> communities in a way that helps both. I'm applying lazy consensus here in
> that if there are no objections I'll start a new thread with a specific
> proposal but of course we will also need a +1 from the LibO people.
>
If I understand correctly (and do stop me if I'm missing something)
the only thing you needed from the AOOo project was permission to use
the logo. The AOOo project was not awarding the certificates,
designing the training materials, etc. If so, I don't see any
problems if your materials carry multiple logos, names. That should
not require additional permission from us, beyond permission to use
the AOOo logo.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> //drew
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Ian
>
> Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ)
>
> www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940
>
> The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth,
> Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and
> Wales.
>
Re: User support: beyond forums or lists
Posted by Ian Lynch <ia...@gmail.com>.
On 24 August 2011 02:30, drew <dr...@baseanswers.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 2011-08-24 at 09:05 +1000, Jean Weber wrote:
> > I've started a new thread, because I think Rob Weir's very important
> point has got lost in the discussions about forums and lists. Rob wrote:
> >
> > > Support is important. The question is
> > > how best to do it. If all we're doing is considering the merits of
> > > different access methods to support, without looking at the
> > > implications of fragmenting the repositories and the resulting
> > > knowledge base, then we are doing a poor job at thinking this through.
> > > Remember the best support site is the one that allows the user to
> > > answer their own question, without signing up for a mailing list or
> > > posting to a forum. We should be looking at how we can prevent user
> > > support questions.
> >
> > This ties in closely with end-user documentation and how it is delivered,
> so I am very interested in this topic. Later today I'll go through the
> archives of this list to find the earlier discussions, which I believe
> occurred while I was traveling and thus weren't given enough of my attention
> at the time. Or, have ideas and suggestions, perhaps examples of good
> practice, been posted to the wiki? Apple is IMO a brilliant example, but
> they have a lot of resources
> >
> > It's clear to me that we need to do better than we have in the user
> support area, if we can do so. Not only will that benefit users and improve
> our reputation, it will allow us to work smarter, not harder. I will pursue
> this, along with other interested people. It's something valuable that I can
> do while the techies are moving websites and working with code etc.
> >
> > Setting up a suitable system and populating it with suitable information
> will be a big task and take quite awhile, especially if we don't have enough
> skilled people to do it. (I'm referring to content, not infrastructure.) All
> the more reason to get started now with planning what we want to do, so we
> can start doing it ASAP.
> >
> > BTW, the Docs mailing list at OOo gets quite a few enquiries from people
> wanting to contribute, and a few of them sound like they have relevant
> experience and skills. I don't want to lose them. Yes, we point them to this
> list as well as ODFAuthors, but I don't know how many have actually joined.
> If we're actively discussing topics of interest to documenters, perhaps more
> people can be persuaded to get involved.
>
> Hi Jean,
>
> Before I let another thread slide away from view - I agree completely
> with approaching this with a unified view of user support, not just
> stove pipes for different delivery vehicles.
>
To add to this, we are currently engaged to train staff in a large training
company in South America that wants OpenOffice certification for end users
initially in schools. In practice this certification is equally applicable
to LibreOffice and OpenOffice - I suspect the request for OpenOffice is
simply a brand awareness thing. Since we are doing this in collaboration
with the OpenOffice.org certification project why not make this a joint
LibO/OOo issue? All we need do is put a LibO logo on the certificate if the
candidate uses LibO to meet the assessment criteria and an OOo logo on the
certificate if it is OpenOffice. We can keep track of the certificates
issued and contribute back to either project on the basis of the number of
certificates. We can modify the documentation to carry both names. To me
this seems a way of promoting user support and awareness for both
communities in a way that helps both. I'm applying lazy consensus here in
that if there are no objections I'll start a new thread with a specific
proposal but of course we will also need a +1 from the LibO people.
>
> //drew
>
>
--
Ian
Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ)
www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940
The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth,
Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and
Wales.
Re: User support: beyond forums or lists
Posted by drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>.
On Wed, 2011-08-24 at 09:05 +1000, Jean Weber wrote:
> I've started a new thread, because I think Rob Weir's very important point has got lost in the discussions about forums and lists. Rob wrote:
>
> > Support is important. The question is
> > how best to do it. If all we're doing is considering the merits of
> > different access methods to support, without looking at the
> > implications of fragmenting the repositories and the resulting
> > knowledge base, then we are doing a poor job at thinking this through.
> > Remember the best support site is the one that allows the user to
> > answer their own question, without signing up for a mailing list or
> > posting to a forum. We should be looking at how we can prevent user
> > support questions.
>
> This ties in closely with end-user documentation and how it is delivered, so I am very interested in this topic. Later today I'll go through the archives of this list to find the earlier discussions, which I believe occurred while I was traveling and thus weren't given enough of my attention at the time. Or, have ideas and suggestions, perhaps examples of good practice, been posted to the wiki? Apple is IMO a brilliant example, but they have a lot of resources
>
> It's clear to me that we need to do better than we have in the user support area, if we can do so. Not only will that benefit users and improve our reputation, it will allow us to work smarter, not harder. I will pursue this, along with other interested people. It's something valuable that I can do while the techies are moving websites and working with code etc.
>
> Setting up a suitable system and populating it with suitable information will be a big task and take quite awhile, especially if we don't have enough skilled people to do it. (I'm referring to content, not infrastructure.) All the more reason to get started now with planning what we want to do, so we can start doing it ASAP.
>
> BTW, the Docs mailing list at OOo gets quite a few enquiries from people wanting to contribute, and a few of them sound like they have relevant experience and skills. I don't want to lose them. Yes, we point them to this list as well as ODFAuthors, but I don't know how many have actually joined. If we're actively discussing topics of interest to documenters, perhaps more people can be persuaded to get involved.
Hi Jean,
Before I let another thread slide away from view - I agree completely
with approaching this with a unified view of user support, not just
stove pipes for different delivery vehicles.
//drew