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Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de> on 2021/11/06 09:16:28 UTC
Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Hello,
following Dave's advice {1], I contacted one moderator of the list users-de@openoffice.apache.org I know and was promised that spam emails would be rejected in future - unfortunately, however, no action was taken, because there is spam again from the sender on the list that I had specifically pointed out.
Can someone please tell me who moderates this list? I would then try to write to another moderator and ask for help.
greetings,
Jörg
[1]
see the thread "How to delete a wrong email list subscription?"
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RE: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
Hello Michael,
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dr. Michael Stehmann [mailto:anwalt@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de]
> Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2021 12:36 PM
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
>
> hello,
>
> I'm one of the moderators of users-de. IMO I'm not the only one.
>
> I have gotten some of the spam postings in the past and rejected them.
>
> But it seems so, I got not all.
>
> There should be a ban for some email addresses, but I'm busy at the
> moment. Because it's not trivial it would take some time.
> There was no
> need for a ban in past. So it would be the first time for me
> to do such
> a job.
I wrote to you very clearly by PM (and in German) that it is about a presumed list account (i.e. a regularly registered participant in the list) who is spamming.
Such emails from registered users are not submitted to the moderators at all. Or am I mistaken?
Why don't you simply check whether "info@dkb.de" is registered on the list and if so, delete this registration?
It is also NOT( about a ban on which you should decide alone, but about an email address of the "Deutsche Kreditbank Aktiengesellschaft" which is obviously being misused and where the "Deutsche Kreditbank Aktiengesellschaft" would be happy if this were stopped.
I have written all this, in essence, by PM, but you only make completely general statements that presumably ignore the concrete situation.
(I write "presumably" because you keep secret from me whether my presumption is correct. Why I don't understand).
greetings,
Jörg
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Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by "Dr. Michael Stehmann" <an...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de>.
Hi Dave,
thank you for the hints.
Kind regards
Michael
Am 06.11.21 um 20:16 schrieb Dave Fisher:
> Hi Michael,
>
> To be clear this not a moderator allowing SPAM situation. This looks like a subscriber setting an auto-reply.
>
> There is a helper for moderators that should help. There are a number of options.
>
> https://whimsy.apache.org/committers/moderationhelper
>
> Let me know if this works for you. If you have forgotten your apache password then reset at https://id.apache.org
>
> Regards,
> Dave
>
>> On Nov 6, 2021, at 11:28 AM, Dr. Michael Stehmann <an...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de> wrote:
>>
>> Hello Jörg,
>>
>> you are so right.
>>
>> As I remember, you were also a (co-)moderator in the past. But you resigned.
>>
>> Do you want to do this job another time?
>>
>> Kind regards
>> Michael
>>
>>
>> Am 06.11.21 um 15:35 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
>>> Hello Marcus,
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Marcus [mailto:marcus.mail@wtnet.de]
>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2021 1:25 PM
>>>> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
>>>> Subject: Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
>>>>
>>>> Am 06.11.21 um 12:36 schrieb Dr. Michael Stehmann:
>>>>> I'm one of the moderators of users-de. IMO I'm not the only one.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have gotten some of the spam postings in the past and
>>>> rejected them.
>>>>>
>>>>> But it seems so, I got not all.
>>>>>
>>>>> There should be a ban for some email addresses, but I'm busy at the
>>>>> moment. Because it's not trivial it would take some time.
>>>> There was no
>>>>> need for a ban in past. So it would be the first time for
>>>> me to do such
>>>>> a job.
>>>>
>>>> I've tried to unsubscribe the mail address. But maybe it was not
>>>> successful as I'm not a moderator for that list.
>>>>
>>>> BTW:
>>>> It's the default contact address from a German bank. IMHO it
>>>> is obvious
>>>> that this is not really used for sending / getting mails
>>>> about OpenOffice.
>>> Thank you for recognising the situation. I wrote all this to Michael by PM and got only general words in reply and no solution.
>>> Yes, I understand if Michael doesn't have time, but the problems of the lack of moderation of "users-de@openoffice.apache.org" have existed for years, and for years I have been pointing it out again and again, because I don't understand why something that concerns us all is not also something where everyone's opinion should count.
>>> What is the issue?
>>> I think it's normal to run a mailing list the way mailing lists are normally run, which is that participants have to register. Where this is not respected, the mailing list is ineffective for all concerned (both questioners and helpers).
>>> I'm not saying that there shouldn't be exceptions sometimes, but that should be limited to individual cases and not become the norm.
>>> Jörg
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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>
RE: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
Hello,
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Fisher [mailto:wave@apache.org]
> Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2021 8:17 PM
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
>
> Hi Michael,
>
> To be clear this not a moderator allowing SPAM situation.
right, that's exactly how it is (which is why it's not useful for Michael to describe his approach to spam submitted to him several times)
> This looks like a subscriber setting an auto-reply.
Not really. In concrete terms, it is probably the case that a spammer has registered regularly on the list, misusing the address of a third party.
Note: Sorry, but I am writing again that this is a very reasonable assumption, but that only someone who has access to the backend of the mailing list can verify it.
Jörg
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Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Dave Fisher <wa...@apache.org>.
Hi Michael,
To be clear this not a moderator allowing SPAM situation. This looks like a subscriber setting an auto-reply.
There is a helper for moderators that should help. There are a number of options.
https://whimsy.apache.org/committers/moderationhelper
Let me know if this works for you. If you have forgotten your apache password then reset at https://id.apache.org
Regards,
Dave
> On Nov 6, 2021, at 11:28 AM, Dr. Michael Stehmann <an...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de> wrote:
>
> Hello Jörg,
>
> you are so right.
>
> As I remember, you were also a (co-)moderator in the past. But you resigned.
>
> Do you want to do this job another time?
>
> Kind regards
> Michael
>
>
> Am 06.11.21 um 15:35 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
>> Hello Marcus,
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Marcus [mailto:marcus.mail@wtnet.de]
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2021 1:25 PM
>>> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
>>> Subject: Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
>>>
>>> Am 06.11.21 um 12:36 schrieb Dr. Michael Stehmann:
>>>> I'm one of the moderators of users-de. IMO I'm not the only one.
>>>>
>>>> I have gotten some of the spam postings in the past and
>>> rejected them.
>>>>
>>>> But it seems so, I got not all.
>>>>
>>>> There should be a ban for some email addresses, but I'm busy at the
>>>> moment. Because it's not trivial it would take some time.
>>> There was no
>>>> need for a ban in past. So it would be the first time for
>>> me to do such
>>>> a job.
>>>
>>> I've tried to unsubscribe the mail address. But maybe it was not
>>> successful as I'm not a moderator for that list.
>>>
>>> BTW:
>>> It's the default contact address from a German bank. IMHO it
>>> is obvious
>>> that this is not really used for sending / getting mails
>>> about OpenOffice.
>> Thank you for recognising the situation. I wrote all this to Michael by PM and got only general words in reply and no solution.
>> Yes, I understand if Michael doesn't have time, but the problems of the lack of moderation of "users-de@openoffice.apache.org" have existed for years, and for years I have been pointing it out again and again, because I don't understand why something that concerns us all is not also something where everyone's opinion should count.
>> What is the issue?
>> I think it's normal to run a mailing list the way mailing lists are normally run, which is that participants have to register. Where this is not respected, the mailing list is ineffective for all concerned (both questioners and helpers).
>> I'm not saying that there shouldn't be exceptions sometimes, but that should be limited to individual cases and not become the norm.
>> Jörg
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
>
>
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RE: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dr. Michael Stehmann [mailto:anwalt@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de]
> Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2021 7:27 PM
> To: Jörg Schmidt
> Subject: Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
>
> Hello Jörg,
>
> you are so right.
>
> As I remember, you were also a (co-)moderator in the past.
> But you resigned.
>
> Do you want to do this job another time?
@all:
I am interested in principle, but there are personal obstacles on my part at the moment.
I have also answered Michael in more detail by PM.
Jörg
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Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by "Dr. Michael Stehmann" <an...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de>.
Hello Jörg,
you are so right.
As I remember, you were also a (co-)moderator in the past. But you resigned.
Do you want to do this job another time?
Kind regards
Michael
Am 06.11.21 um 15:35 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
> Hello Marcus,
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Marcus [mailto:marcus.mail@wtnet.de]
>> Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2021 1:25 PM
>> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
>>
>> Am 06.11.21 um 12:36 schrieb Dr. Michael Stehmann:
>>> I'm one of the moderators of users-de. IMO I'm not the only one.
>>>
>>> I have gotten some of the spam postings in the past and
>> rejected them.
>>>
>>> But it seems so, I got not all.
>>>
>>> There should be a ban for some email addresses, but I'm busy at the
>>> moment. Because it's not trivial it would take some time.
>> There was no
>>> need for a ban in past. So it would be the first time for
>> me to do such
>>> a job.
>>
>> I've tried to unsubscribe the mail address. But maybe it was not
>> successful as I'm not a moderator for that list.
>>
>> BTW:
>> It's the default contact address from a German bank. IMHO it
>> is obvious
>> that this is not really used for sending / getting mails
>> about OpenOffice.
>
> Thank you for recognising the situation. I wrote all this to Michael by PM and got only general words in reply and no solution.
>
> Yes, I understand if Michael doesn't have time, but the problems of the lack of moderation of "users-de@openoffice.apache.org" have existed for years, and for years I have been pointing it out again and again, because I don't understand why something that concerns us all is not also something where everyone's opinion should count.
>
> What is the issue?
> I think it's normal to run a mailing list the way mailing lists are normally run, which is that participants have to register. Where this is not respected, the mailing list is ineffective for all concerned (both questioners and helpers).
> I'm not saying that there shouldn't be exceptions sometimes, but that should be limited to individual cases and not become the norm.
>
>
>
> Jörg
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
RE: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
Hello Marcus,
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marcus [mailto:marcus.mail@wtnet.de]
> Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2021 1:25 PM
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
>
> Am 06.11.21 um 12:36 schrieb Dr. Michael Stehmann:
> > I'm one of the moderators of users-de. IMO I'm not the only one.
> >
> > I have gotten some of the spam postings in the past and
> rejected them.
> >
> > But it seems so, I got not all.
> >
> > There should be a ban for some email addresses, but I'm busy at the
> > moment. Because it's not trivial it would take some time.
> There was no
> > need for a ban in past. So it would be the first time for
> me to do such
> > a job.
>
> I've tried to unsubscribe the mail address. But maybe it was not
> successful as I'm not a moderator for that list.
>
> BTW:
> It's the default contact address from a German bank. IMHO it
> is obvious
> that this is not really used for sending / getting mails
> about OpenOffice.
Thank you for recognising the situation. I wrote all this to Michael by PM and got only general words in reply and no solution.
Yes, I understand if Michael doesn't have time, but the problems of the lack of moderation of "users-de@openoffice.apache.org" have existed for years, and for years I have been pointing it out again and again, because I don't understand why something that concerns us all is not also something where everyone's opinion should count.
What is the issue?
I think it's normal to run a mailing list the way mailing lists are normally run, which is that participants have to register. Where this is not respected, the mailing list is ineffective for all concerned (both questioners and helpers).
I'm not saying that there shouldn't be exceptions sometimes, but that should be limited to individual cases and not become the norm.
Jörg
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Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Marcus <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Am 06.11.21 um 12:36 schrieb Dr. Michael Stehmann:
> I'm one of the moderators of users-de. IMO I'm not the only one.
>
> I have gotten some of the spam postings in the past and rejected them.
>
> But it seems so, I got not all.
>
> There should be a ban for some email addresses, but I'm busy at the
> moment. Because it's not trivial it would take some time. There was no
> need for a ban in past. So it would be the first time for me to do such
> a job.
I've tried to unsubscribe the mail address. But maybe it was not
successful as I'm not a moderator for that list.
BTW:
It's the default contact address from a German bank. IMHO it is obvious
that this is not really used for sending / getting mails about OpenOffice.
Marcus
> Am 06.11.21 um 10:16 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
>> following Dave's advice {1], I contacted one moderator of the list
>> users-de@openoffice.apache.org I know and was promised that spam
>> emails would be rejected in future - unfortunately, however, no action
>> was taken, because there is spam again from the sender on the list
>> that I had specifically pointed out.
>>
>> Can someone please tell me who moderates this list? I would then try
>> to write to another moderator and ask for help.
>>
>> [1]
>> see the thread "How to delete a wrong email list subscription?
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Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by "Dr. Michael Stehmann" <an...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de>.
hello,
I'm one of the moderators of users-de. IMO I'm not the only one.
I have gotten some of the spam postings in the past and rejected them.
But it seems so, I got not all.
There should be a ban for some email addresses, but I'm busy at the
moment. Because it's not trivial it would take some time. There was no
need for a ban in past. So it would be the first time for me to do such
a job.
Kind regards
Michael
Am 06.11.21 um 10:16 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
> Hello,
>
> following Dave's advice {1], I contacted one moderator of the list users-de@openoffice.apache.org I know and was promised that spam emails would be rejected in future - unfortunately, however, no action was taken, because there is spam again from the sender on the list that I had specifically pointed out.
>
> Can someone please tell me who moderates this list? I would then try to write to another moderator and ask for help.
>
>
>
> greetings,
> Jörg
>
> [1]
> see the thread "How to delete a wrong email list subscription?"
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
RE: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Fisher [mailto:wave@apache.org]
> Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2021 8:26 PM
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
>
>
>
> > On Nov 6, 2021, at 3:45 AM, Dave <bm...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > On 06/11/2021 10:30, Marcus wrote:
> >> Am 06.11.21 um 10:16 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
> >>> following Dave's advice {1], I contacted one moderator of the list
> >>> users-de@openoffice.apache.org I know and was promised that spam
> >>> emails would be rejected in future - unfortunately,
> however, no action
> >>> was taken, because there is spam again from the sender on the list
> >>> that I had specifically pointed out.
> >>>
> >>> Can someone please tell me who moderates this list? I
> would then try
> >>> to write to another moderator and ask for help.
> >>>
> >>> [1]
> >>> see the thread "How to delete a wrong email list subscription?"
> >>
> >> I can see that Michael and Dave could be moderators of the
> list. But
> >> maybe it's a bit outdated.
> >>
> >> Marcus
> >
> > I have been a moderator for some of our English lists since the
> > project's poddling days. Unfortunately, my knowledge of
> German is not
> > very good, so I would not be of much help for the German users list.
> >
> > I have asked before why the PMC does not wish moderators to be
> > identified, but never received any rational answer.
>
> Providing a clear identification of moderators would be a
> privacy challenge.
Possible.
however:
I just think things are a little different, because I have been observing for years that secrecy is becoming increasingly Secrecy (in German i mean: "Geheimniskrämerei") here in the project, when we should actually be cultivating openness and developing it further.
The, so to speak, radical [1] publicity/openness in ASF projects was once very surprising for me, in the meantime this publicity/openness, at least in AOO, is eroding more and more and this is damaging us (imho). In a free project, no one should be afraid to stand up for their opinion in public and everyone should also be prepared to face public criticism of their work (and possibly their person).
Jörg
[1]
e.g. the fact that many ASF project members react with, consciously, annoyance when you write things to them by PM that you can also write on a mailing list, is for me an expression of this, because the tenor of this kind of reaction is also (to my mind): write as much as possible publicly and only in really exceptional cases by PM.
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Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Dave <bm...@apache.org>.
On 10/11/2021 21:28, Kay Schenk wrote:
> my thoughts....
>
> Once upon a time, mailing list moderators were listed on the project
> page -- openoffice.apache.org -- along with the mailing lists. I see
> that this is no longer the case. It might be a good idea to list the
> moderators...but as Dave sez, make it clear they are not to be directly
> contacted and (maybe?) to contact the PMC about issues with mailing list
> behavior instead(???)
Hi Kay,
Thanks for your input. Yes, I also remember those pre-Apache days.
Since 2001 moderators have been contactable via owner-<list> address.
Unless things get really out of hand, I do not think it is necessary to
involve the PMC group of members, just allow moderators to do their job
and manage mailing list issues.
I have been sorely tempted to put on my "Moderator Hat" and step in on
some aspects of this thread, but since I personally contributed to part
of the commentary I felt it more appropriate for me to step back and
allow another moderator to handle things, if they chose to do so.
However, I would ask that now everyone here has vented their thoughts
and grievances to the list, can we please put our differences aside and
move on. Remembering that we are all posting here in the common interest
of taking the AOO project forward, even if we have different ways of
expressing that interest.
Thanks and kindest regards to you all.
Dave
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Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com>.
On 11/9/21 20:25, Dave Fisher wrote:
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Nov 9, 2021, at 3:48 PM, Marcus <ma...@wtnet.de> wrote:
>>
>> Am 07.11.21 um 21:18 schrieb Dave:
>>> On 07/11/2021 19:42, Dave Fisher wrote:
>>>>> Sorry to put it this way Dave, but this is the same answer that I have
>>>>> had received from you and other PMC members previously.
>>>>>
>>>>> If your statement is true, then we and the ASF have a very serious and
>>>>> extreme privacy challenge here:
>>>>> https://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html#openoffice
>>>>>
>>>>> In my view anyone who "steps up to he plate" for ANY role in an OPEN
>>>>> source project should not have any concerns about being identified a
>>>>> contributor and their role that project. I am not ashamed of being
>>>>> identified as a (very small, relatively unimportant) contributor to the
>>>>> AOO project and I suggest that ANYONE who is wishes to adopt this
>>>>> underhanded, secretive approach, should step away from the project.
>>>> I agree about every role except moderation. I moderate 27 different Apache Mailing Lists only one of which is an AOO list.
>>>>
>>>> If the community wishes to disclose all of the moderators that would be an acceptable outcome.
>>> I read your words, which are the same as you and other PMC members have
>>> previously stated, but I still do not read any explanation as to the
>>> rational of why moderators should hold any more of an exclusive or
>>> covert role within the ASF.
>>> Let's just put this down to my natural stupidity and end this thread,
>>> because there is nothing to be gained by perusing the subject.
>> normally I would agree. However, I'm curious to know what you mean with "... why moderators should hold any more of an exclusive or covert role within the ASF ..." and why you think there is something secret?
>>
>> A moderator is just a committer as you and me. Some are also a PMC member or maybe also supporter/committer/member of other ASF projects. But thats it.
>>
>> I volunteer to create a Wiki page to show who is moderating which mailing list(s) - if the community think it has a value.
my thoughts....
Once upon a time, mailing list moderators were listed on the project
page -- openoffice.apache.org -- along with the mailing lists. I see
that this is no longer the case. It might be a good idea to list the
moderators...but as Dave sez, make it clear they are not to be directly
contacted and (maybe?) to contact the PMC about issues with mailing list
behavior instead(???)
> That’s ok as long as it is made clear NOT to ever contact moderators directly about the mailing list.
>
> I hope you see the conundrum being presented.
>
> Regards,
> Dave
>> Marcus
>>
>>
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>>
>
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--
---------------------------------------
"Do what you can, with what you've got,
where you are."
-- Theodore Roosevelt
Kay Schenk
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Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Marcus <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Am 10.11.21 um 05:25 schrieb Dave Fisher:
>> On Nov 9, 2021, at 3:48 PM, Marcus <ma...@wtnet.de> wrote:
>> Am 07.11.21 um 21:18 schrieb Dave:
>>> On 07/11/2021 19:42, Dave Fisher wrote:
>>>>> Sorry to put it this way Dave, but this is the same answer that I have
>>>>> had received from you and other PMC members previously.
>>>>>
>>>>> If your statement is true, then we and the ASF have a very serious and
>>>>> extreme privacy challenge here:
>>>>> https://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html#openoffice
>>>>>
>>>>> In my view anyone who "steps up to he plate" for ANY role in an OPEN
>>>>> source project should not have any concerns about being identified a
>>>>> contributor and their role that project. I am not ashamed of being
>>>>> identified as a (very small, relatively unimportant) contributor to the
>>>>> AOO project and I suggest that ANYONE who is wishes to adopt this
>>>>> underhanded, secretive approach, should step away from the project.
>>>> I agree about every role except moderation. I moderate 27 different Apache Mailing Lists only one of which is an AOO list.
>>>>
>>>> If the community wishes to disclose all of the moderators that would be an acceptable outcome.
>>> I read your words, which are the same as you and other PMC members have
>>> previously stated, but I still do not read any explanation as to the
>>> rational of why moderators should hold any more of an exclusive or
>>> covert role within the ASF.
>>> Let's just put this down to my natural stupidity and end this thread,
>>> because there is nothing to be gained by perusing the subject.
>>
>> normally I would agree. However, I'm curious to know what you mean with "... why moderators should hold any more of an exclusive or covert role within the ASF ..." and why you think there is something secret?
>>
>> A moderator is just a committer as you and me. Some are also a PMC member or maybe also supporter/committer/member of other ASF projects. But thats it.
>>
>> I volunteer to create a Wiki page to show who is moderating which mailing list(s) - if the community think it has a value.
>
> That’s ok as long as it is made clear NOT to ever contact moderators directly about the mailing list.
sure, that and ...
>
> I hope you see the conundrum being presented.
... I won't add any mail address. Names only.
Marcus
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Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Dave Fisher <wa...@comcast.net>.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Nov 9, 2021, at 3:48 PM, Marcus <ma...@wtnet.de> wrote:
>
> Am 07.11.21 um 21:18 schrieb Dave:
>> On 07/11/2021 19:42, Dave Fisher wrote:
>>>> Sorry to put it this way Dave, but this is the same answer that I have
>>>> had received from you and other PMC members previously.
>>>>
>>>> If your statement is true, then we and the ASF have a very serious and
>>>> extreme privacy challenge here:
>>>> https://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html#openoffice
>>>>
>>>> In my view anyone who "steps up to he plate" for ANY role in an OPEN
>>>> source project should not have any concerns about being identified a
>>>> contributor and their role that project. I am not ashamed of being
>>>> identified as a (very small, relatively unimportant) contributor to the
>>>> AOO project and I suggest that ANYONE who is wishes to adopt this
>>>> underhanded, secretive approach, should step away from the project.
>>> I agree about every role except moderation. I moderate 27 different Apache Mailing Lists only one of which is an AOO list.
>>>
>>> If the community wishes to disclose all of the moderators that would be an acceptable outcome.
>> I read your words, which are the same as you and other PMC members have
>> previously stated, but I still do not read any explanation as to the
>> rational of why moderators should hold any more of an exclusive or
>> covert role within the ASF.
>> Let's just put this down to my natural stupidity and end this thread,
>> because there is nothing to be gained by perusing the subject.
>
> normally I would agree. However, I'm curious to know what you mean with "... why moderators should hold any more of an exclusive or covert role within the ASF ..." and why you think there is something secret?
>
> A moderator is just a committer as you and me. Some are also a PMC member or maybe also supporter/committer/member of other ASF projects. But thats it.
>
> I volunteer to create a Wiki page to show who is moderating which mailing list(s) - if the community think it has a value.
That’s ok as long as it is made clear NOT to ever contact moderators directly about the mailing list.
I hope you see the conundrum being presented.
Regards,
Dave
>
> Marcus
>
>
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Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Marcus <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Am 10.11.21 um 11:36 schrieb Dave Barton:
> On 09/11/2021 23:48, Marcus wrote:
>> However, I'm curious to know what you mean with "... why moderators
>> should hold any more of an exclusive or covert role within the ASF ..."
>> and why you think there is something secret?
>
> The answer to that "baited" question is: Everybody with any kind of role
> within the ASF can be identified, EXCEPT MODERATORS,
> Unidentified = Hidden = Secret.
a last attempt:
https://whimsy.apache.org/roster/committee/openoffice#mail
After login you can see all mailing lists with their moderators.
Marcus
>> On 10/11/2021 04:25, Dave Fisher wrote
>>>> That’s ok as long as it is made clear NOT to ever contact moderator
>>>> directly about the mailing list>>>
>>>> I hope you see the conundrum being presented.
>
> The inbox of all moderators receive posts to owner-<list>, which
> effectively is direct contact, but if it is a matter of concern, let's
> leave the status quo.
>
> I really would like to end my involvement in this thread now.
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Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Dave Barton <db...@posteo.net>.
Hi Marcus
On 09/11/2021 23:48, Marcus wrote:
> However, I'm curious to know what you mean with "... why moderators
> should hold any more of an exclusive or covert role within the ASF ..."
> and why you think there is something secret?
The answer to that "baited" question is: Everybody with any kind of role
within the ASF can be identified, EXCEPT MODERATORS,
Unidentified = Hidden = Secret.
> A moderator is just a committer as you and me. Some are also a PMC
> member or maybe also supporter/committer/member of other ASF projects.
> But thats it.
Since moderators are unidentified, I cannot say with any certainty if it
is still the case, but I have reason to believe that in years past there
have been one or more moderators who were not also committers. It's not
clear to me how that is/was possible, but Rob Weir advised me of this
when I first became a moderator.
I would very much appreciate that you stop publicly lecturing me about
how the ASF is structured. I joined this project at the same time as you
and possibly a little before you. So I understand how things work, even
if I do not always agree with "The Apache Way".
> I volunteer to create a Wiki page to show who is moderating which
> mailing list(s) - if the community think it has a value.
Since your offer is buried within a thread that most subscribers have
long since tired of, I doubt that you will get much, if any, feedback.
> Marcus
> On 10/11/2021 04:25, Dave Fisher wrote
>>> That’s ok as long as it is made clear NOT to ever contact moderator
>>> directly about the mailing list>>>
>>> I hope you see the conundrum being presented.
The inbox of all moderators receive posts to owner-<list>, which
effectively is direct contact, but if it is a matter of concern, let's
leave the status quo.
I really would like to end my involvement in this thread now.
Dave
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Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Marcus <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Am 07.11.21 um 21:18 schrieb Dave:
> On 07/11/2021 19:42, Dave Fisher wrote:
>>> Sorry to put it this way Dave, but this is the same answer that I have
>>> had received from you and other PMC members previously.
>>>
>>> If your statement is true, then we and the ASF have a very serious and
>>> extreme privacy challenge here:
>>> https://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html#openoffice
>>>
>>> In my view anyone who "steps up to he plate" for ANY role in an OPEN
>>> source project should not have any concerns about being identified a
>>> contributor and their role that project. I am not ashamed of being
>>> identified as a (very small, relatively unimportant) contributor to the
>>> AOO project and I suggest that ANYONE who is wishes to adopt this
>>> underhanded, secretive approach, should step away from the project.
>> I agree about every role except moderation. I moderate 27 different Apache Mailing Lists only one of which is an AOO list.
>>
>> If the community wishes to disclose all of the moderators that would be an acceptable outcome.
>
> I read your words, which are the same as you and other PMC members have
> previously stated, but I still do not read any explanation as to the
> rational of why moderators should hold any more of an exclusive or
> covert role within the ASF.
>
> Let's just put this down to my natural stupidity and end this thread,
> because there is nothing to be gained by perusing the subject.
normally I would agree. However, I'm curious to know what you mean with
"... why moderators should hold any more of an exclusive or covert role
within the ASF ..." and why you think there is something secret?
A moderator is just a committer as you and me. Some are also a PMC
member or maybe also supporter/committer/member of other ASF projects.
But thats it.
I volunteer to create a Wiki page to show who is moderating which
mailing list(s) - if the community think it has a value.
Marcus
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Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Dave <bm...@apache.org>.
On 07/11/2021 19:42, Dave Fisher wrote:
>> Sorry to put it this way Dave, but this is the same answer that I have
>> had received from you and other PMC members previously.
>>
>> If your statement is true, then we and the ASF have a very serious and
>> extreme privacy challenge here:
>> https://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html#openoffice
>>
>> In my view anyone who "steps up to he plate" for ANY role in an OPEN
>> source project should not have any concerns about being identified a
>> contributor and their role that project. I am not ashamed of being
>> identified as a (very small, relatively unimportant) contributor to the
>> AOO project and I suggest that ANYONE who is wishes to adopt this
>> underhanded, secretive approach, should step away from the project.
> I agree about every role except moderation. I moderate 27 different Apache Mailing Lists only one of which is an AOO list.
>
> If the community wishes to disclose all of the moderators that would be an acceptable outcome.
I read your words, which are the same as you and other PMC members have
previously stated, but I still do not read any explanation as to the
rational of why moderators should hold any more of an exclusive or
covert role within the ASF.
Let's just put this down to my natural stupidity and end this thread,
because there is nothing to be gained by perusing the subject.
Regards
Dave
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Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Dave Fisher <wa...@apache.org>.
> On Nov 6, 2021, at 2:34 PM, Dave <bm...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On 06/11/2021 19:26, Dave Fisher wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On Nov 6, 2021, at 3:45 AM, Dave <bm...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 06/11/2021 10:30, Marcus wrote:
>>>> Am 06.11.21 um 10:16 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
>>>>> following Dave's advice {1], I contacted one moderator of the list
>>>>> users-de@openoffice.apache.org I know and was promised that spam
>>>>> emails would be rejected in future - unfortunately, however, no action
>>>>> was taken, because there is spam again from the sender on the list
>>>>> that I had specifically pointed out.
>>>>>
>>>>> Can someone please tell me who moderates this list? I would then try
>>>>> to write to another moderator and ask for help.
>>>>>
>>>>> [1]
>>>>> see the thread "How to delete a wrong email list subscription?"
>>>>
>>>> I can see that Michael and Dave could be moderators of the list. But
>>>> maybe it's a bit outdated.
>>>>
>>>> Marcus
>>>
>>> I have been a moderator for some of our English lists since the
>>> project's poddling days. Unfortunately, my knowledge of German is not
>>> very good, so I would not be of much help for the German users list.
>>>
>>> I have asked before why the PMC does not wish moderators to be
>>> identified, but never received any rational answer.
>>
>> Providing a clear identification of moderators would be a privacy challenge.
>>
>> The mechanism to contact moderators is to send an email to users-de-owners@openoffice.apache.org
>>
>> Regards,
>> Dave
>>
>>>
>>> Dave
>
> Sorry to put it this way Dave, but this is the same answer that I have
> had received from you and other PMC members previously.
>
> If your statement is true, then we and the ASF have a very serious and
> extreme privacy challenge here:
> https://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html#openoffice
>
> In my view anyone who "steps up to he plate" for ANY role in an OPEN
> source project should not have any concerns about being identified a
> contributor and their role that project. I am not ashamed of being
> identified as a (very small, relatively unimportant) contributor to the
> AOO project and I suggest that ANYONE who is wishes to adopt this
> underhanded, secretive approach, should step away from the project.
I agree about every role except moderation. I moderate 27 different Apache Mailing Lists only one of which is an AOO list.
If the community wishes to disclose all of the moderators that would be an acceptable outcome.
>
> Yes, my commentary will be misinterpreted by some as inflammatory, but
> like Jörg I am both a supporter and critic of the AOO project.
Fair enough.
>
> As a separate issue, the above mentioned link is seriously in need of
> review and update, because many of the people mentioned are no longer
> active in, or have resigned from the positions listed. Also one person
> listed regrettably passed away last month.
This is the flip side of tracking people in various positions. Thanks for letting us know.
There are many places that list people no longer involved in the project. PRs and edits are possible and any committer or contributor (depending on the resource) is welcome to submit or make corrections.
Regards,
Dave
>
> Regards
> Dave
>
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RE: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
Hello Michael,
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dr. Michael Stehmann [mailto:anwalt@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de]
> Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2021 10:00 AM
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
>
> Hello Jörg,
>
> please read what Matthias really wrote.
>
> There is _no_ sentence "Jörg is a liar." written by hin. So
> it is your
> own and very special allegation he might called you a liar.
Michael, why are you accusing me of a "special allegation" here, when I have clearly asked(!):
"Are you calling me a liar in public?"
and by the way:
Mathias has no right to talk about "old times" in relation to OpenOffice, because he was never part of those "old times".
> You should also try to differ between censorship and repression and a
> friendly minded "si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses".
Mathias is not friendly to my person because he succumbed to a misunderstanding a long time ago and I am too angry to clear up this misunderstanding.
> EOD
+1
Jörg
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Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by "Dr. Michael Stehmann" <an...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de>.
Hello Jörg,
please read what Matthias really wrote.
There is _no_ sentence "Jörg is a liar." written by hin. So it is your
own and very special allegation he might called you a liar.
I wrote:
"we know that you have another point of view regarding facts than some
other participants of this list."
And I think recently that's true.
Matthias gave an interpretation of the term "another point of view
regarding facts" to such an extent I would have called you a liar (if I
would use the wording of "the old times"). He only interpreted my
expression in the sentence above.
But this interpretation is very one-sided and narrowing because I
respect " Hanlon’s Razor". I would never presume a lie, if there are
many other explanations for a behavior.
To finish the discussion on my side:
You should also try to differ between censorship and repression and a
friendly minded "si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses".
EOD
Regards
Michael
RE: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dr. Michael Stehmann [mailto:anwalt@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2021 9:08 PM
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
>
>
>
> Am 10.11.21 um 18:38 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
> A mailing list is not a lawless space!
>
> But free speech is free speech - on mailing lists as anywhere else.
>
> Who claims freedom of opinion has to bear contradiction.
>
> Free speech has implications; sometimes it causes a lack of
> friends and
> understanding.
In constitutional states, there are also certain limits to freedom of expression that are set by the legislature.
Perhaps you should think about how you would feel about being called a "liar", as you know that some of your clients are reading along here.
greetings,
Jörg
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Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by "Dr. Michael Stehmann" <an...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de>.
Am 10.11.21 um 18:38 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
A mailing list is not a lawless space!
But free speech is free speech - on mailing lists as anywhere else.
Who claims freedom of opinion has to bear contradiction.
Free speech has implications; sometimes it causes a lack of friends and
understanding.
Kind regards
Michael
RE: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matthias Seidel [mailto:matthias.seidel@hamburg.de]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2021 6:33 PM
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
>
> Hi Michael,
>
> "another point of view regarding facts"
>
> In the old times a liar was just called a liar... J
Are you calling me a liar in public? A mailing list is not a lawless space!
Jörg
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Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Matthias Seidel <ma...@hamburg.de>.
Hi Michael,
"another point of view regarding facts"
In the old times a liar was just called a liar... ;-)
Regards,
Matthias
Am 10.11.21 um 14:00 schrieb Dr. Michael Stehmann:
> Hi Jörg,
>
> we know that you have another point of view regarding facts than some
> other participants of this list.
>
> You should accept that nearly noone wants to discuss that in extenso
> because iz is totally useless.
>
> We don't need more quarrels, so please stopp your blaming.
>
> Kind regards
> Michael, who respects your skills, knowledge and your commitment in
> the past
>
> Am 10.11.21 um 08:03 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
>> Hallo Mathias,
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Matthias Seidel [mailto:matthias.seidel@hamburg.de]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2021 1:14 PM
>>> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
>>> Subject: Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I am SO sick of these toxic threads of a certain person...
>>>
>>> I don't want to read his conspiracy theories anymore,
>>
>> I am not talking about conspiracy theories here. Stop making such
>> insinuations.
>>
>>> "D." has become committer and did stop his contributions
>>> shortly after.
>>
>> You know the other contexts very well.
>>
>>> How should "D." become part of the PMC?!
>>
>> Not at all, because I did not claim anything like that (=D. should
>> become part of the PMC). Please stop putting untrue statements in my
>> mouth.
>>
>>
>> Jörg
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
>
RE: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
Hello Michael,
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dr. Michael Stehmann [mailto:anwalt@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2021 2:00 PM
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
>
> Hi Jörg,
>
> we know that you have another point of view regarding facts than some
> other participants of this list.
>
> You should accept that nearly noone wants to discuss that in extenso
> because iz is totally useless.
>
> We don't need more quarrels, so please stopp your blaming.
I will certainly not stop expressing my opinion freely, even if the current PMC obviously wants me to.
At least as a committer, I have binding rights and duties, and that includes the right to express my opinion, but not the duty to remain fearfully silent to the PMC.
And it's very simple: whoever doesn't like my opinion doesn't have to read it.
> Kind regards
> Michael, who respects your skills, knowledge and your
> commitment in the past
Thank you.
Then this could be a reason for you to work for these things to be appreciated in the same way as they have been appreciated by others who have done similar things.
To exclude me only because some influential people do not like me personally is simply unfair and I therefore oppose it.
greetings,
Jörg
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Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by "Dr. Michael Stehmann" <an...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de>.
Hi Jörg,
we know that you have another point of view regarding facts than some
other participants of this list.
You should accept that nearly noone wants to discuss that in extenso
because iz is totally useless.
We don't need more quarrels, so please stopp your blaming.
Kind regards
Michael, who respects your skills, knowledge and your commitment in the past
Am 10.11.21 um 08:03 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
> Hallo Mathias,
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Matthias Seidel [mailto:matthias.seidel@hamburg.de]
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2021 1:14 PM
>> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I am SO sick of these toxic threads of a certain person...
>>
>> I don't want to read his conspiracy theories anymore,
>
> I am not talking about conspiracy theories here. Stop making such insinuations.
>
>> "D." has become committer and did stop his contributions
>> shortly after.
>
> You know the other contexts very well.
>
>> How should "D." become part of the PMC?!
>
> Not at all, because I did not claim anything like that (=D. should become part of the PMC). Please stop putting untrue statements in my mouth.
>
>
> Jörg
>
>
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RE: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
Hallo Mathias,
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matthias Seidel [mailto:matthias.seidel@hamburg.de]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2021 1:14 PM
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
>
> Hi all,
>
> I am SO sick of these toxic threads of a certain person...
>
> I don't want to read his conspiracy theories anymore,
I am not talking about conspiracy theories here. Stop making such insinuations.
> "D." has become committer and did stop his contributions
> shortly after.
You know the other contexts very well.
> How should "D." become part of the PMC?!
Not at all, because I did not claim anything like that (=D. should become part of the PMC). Please stop putting untrue statements in my mouth.
Jörg
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Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Pedro Lino <pe...@mailbox.org.INVALID>.
> On 11/09/2021 12:13 PM Matthias Seidel <ma...@hamburg.de> wrote:
> Let's stop this and go back to work and move on with the project
> instead of harming it.
+1
Pedro
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RE: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marcus [mailto:marcus.mail@wtnet.de]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2021 6:30 PM
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
>
> Am 09.11.21 um 13:13 schrieb Matthias Seidel:
> > I am SO sick of these toxic threads of a certain person...
> >
> > I don't want to read his conspiracy theories anymore
>
> I also think I can say what I want. It's always understood
> differently
> and not trying to think about any attempt to change it.
>
> > Let's stop this and go back to work and move on with the project
> > instead of harming it.
>
> Good point. :-)
And the fact that the voluntary work of others (=ProOO-Box) is being affected is of no interest?
I can still remember what it was like when OOo was in production, without PMC and without the know-it-all attitude of certain privileged project members.
Who was there at that time? And who was not, but today presumes to judge the performance of others?
Jörg
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Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Marcus <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Am 09.11.21 um 13:13 schrieb Matthias Seidel:
> I am SO sick of these toxic threads of a certain person...
>
> I don't want to read his conspiracy theories anymore
I also think I can say what I want. It's always understood differently
and not trying to think about any attempt to change it.
> Let's stop this and go back to work and move on with the project
> instead of harming it.
Good point. :-)
Marcus
> Am 09.11.21 um 10:58 schrieb Dr. Michael Stehmann:
>> Hello,
>>
>> Am 08.11.21 um 20:13 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
>>
>>> I'm afraid, Marcus, we have a problem of understanding what "all"
>>> means. For me, this is the community and not a few privileged people
>>> who are in PMC.
>>
>> Maybe some may see it as a privilege. I see it as a (little) burden I
>> bear voluntarily.
>>
>> The PMC is not any kind of peerage or order. It's a necessary working
>> group.
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Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Matthias Seidel <ma...@hamburg.de>.
Hi all,
I am SO sick of these toxic threads of a certain person...
I don't want to read his conspiracy theories anymore, but one thing:
"D." has become committer and did stop his contributions shortly after.
How should "D." become part of the PMC?!
Let's stop this and go back to work and move on with the project
instead of harming it.
Regards,
Matthias
Am 09.11.21 um 10:58 schrieb Dr. Michael Stehmann:
> Hello,
>
> Am 08.11.21 um 20:13 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
>
>> I'm afraid, Marcus, we have a problem of understanding what "all"
>> means. For me, this is the community and not a few privileged people
>> who are in PMC.
>
> Maybe some may see it as a privilege. I see it as a (little) burden I
> bear voluntarily.
>
> The PMC is not any kind of peerage or order. It's a necessary working
> group.
>
> Kind regards
> Michael
>
RE: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
Hello,
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dr. Michael Stehmann [mailto:anwalt@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2021 10:58 AM
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
>
> Hello,
>
> Am 08.11.21 um 20:13 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
>
> > I'm afraid, Marcus, we have a problem of understanding what
> "all" means. For me, this is the community and not a few
> privileged people who are in PMC.
>
> Maybe some may see it as a privilege. I see it as a (little) burden I
> bear voluntarily.
It is a pity that not everyone is allowed to shoulder this "extra" burden if they want to...
> The PMC is not any kind of peerage or order.
The self-image of the AOO-PMC is different, as I have often experienced.
my mistake, in the past, was to compare the PMC with a "leadership" in the conventional sense (which is why I was also irritated by PMCs with a large number of members in other ASF projects).
Jörg
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Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by "Dr. Michael Stehmann" <an...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de>.
Hello,
Am 08.11.21 um 20:13 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
> I'm afraid, Marcus, we have a problem of understanding what "all" means. For me, this is the community and not a few privileged people who are in PMC.
Maybe some may see it as a privilege. I see it as a (little) burden I
bear voluntarily.
The PMC is not any kind of peerage or order. It's a necessary working group.
Kind regards
Michael
RE: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marcus [mailto:marcus.mail@wtnet.de]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2021 11:44 AM
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
> > I'm afraid, Marcus, we have a problem of understanding what
> "all" means. For me, this is the community and not a few
> privileged people who are in PMC.
>
> I don't know in which circle you see a PMC. It's not a club
> of old men
> or a secret organization like Illuminati or any other voodoo.
I am only talking about the AOO PMC (not all ASF PMCs in general).
I had given my assessment of this by PM and I am happy to repeat it here:
"a PMC of a free project should be inspired by a spirit of freedom, openness and fairness to all, and not play tactical games like a business club where personal goodwill counts more than performance."
> Sorry I don't know what you mean with "inside knowledge". Some tasks
> have to be handled by the PMC only (e.g., people issues,
> binding release
> voting, trademark) . This is the rule that comes from the ASF itself.
It is certainly not a rule of the ASF that a PMC is the place to make appointments to harm parts of the (general) community by poaching volunteers from them.
Or do you think I am so simple-minded as to believe that poaching D. from the ProOO-Box was not discussed in advance?
And if you think such 'tactical games' are right, at least ask yourself what the balance is.
In any case, my conclusion is: the ProOO Box has lost an active contributor (and there was a bad atmosphere, which I very much regret), but the project still does not have a finished flyer. So both sides (de-AOO and ProOO-Box) have only suffered damage.
> Or what do you expect from me?
mayby your advice as a community and PMC member on how I should behave.
> When you have a topic to discuss that affects the PMC, then
> you have to
> talk with the PMC.
It is pointless to talk to the PMC because it refuses to even question its own inappropriate thinking and behaviour and understands every sufficiently noticeable criticism as an attack and emphasises things completely wrongly as a defence.
For example, when I turned to private@ a long time ago to suggest certain personnel changes, the reaction was not constructive but an attack on my person with the insinuation that I wanted to speak disparagingly about the performance of individuals.
The specific comparison made to me (which I do not wish to repeat publicly here) was in bad taste.
Jörg
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Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Marcus <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Am 08.11.21 um 20:13 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
> Hello Marcus,
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Marcus [mailto:marcus.mail@wtnet.de]
>> Sent: Monday, November 08, 2021 5:57 PM
>> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
>>
>> Am 08.11.21 um 07:33 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Marcus [mailto:marcus.mail@wtnet.de]
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2021 7:48 PM
>>>> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
>>>> Subject: Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
>>>
>>>> when you want to talk about this with names then I invite you
>>>> to discuss
>>>> this via private@.
>>>
>>> with pleasure, but not on private@, but by PM.
>>
>> sorry but please write to private@, so that we *all* can have
>> the same
>> information and can discuss it.
>
> I'm afraid, Marcus, we have a problem of understanding what "all" means. For me, this is the community and not a few privileged people who are in PMC.
I don't know in which circle you see a PMC. It's not a club of old men
or a secret organization like Illuminati or any other voodoo. Please see
the mail from Dave Fisher he posted on Nov, 07th.
> Why I no longer want to write to private@, namely because my experiences with requests to private@ are negative, I told you by PM.
>
> For me, the greatest possible openness has always been a 'trademark' of the ASF, but with AOO I experience that the PMC tries to build up more insider knowledge than is necessary. Knowledge that should actually be known and discussed within the entire community.
Sorry I don't know what you mean with "inside knowledge". Some tasks
have to be handled by the PMC only (e.g., people issues, binding release
voting, trademark) . This is the rule that comes from the ASF itself.
> So please excuse me, but I am not interested in secret talks with the PMC.
And I've no interest to talk to you in private about topic(s) that
affects actually more people.
Or what do you expect from me? We both talk and I take it further to
someone else, then further and further? I hope that this is not the
thing you have in mind.
Finally:
When you have a topic to discuss that affects the PMC, then you have to
talk with the PMC.
Marcus
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RE: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
Hello Marcus,
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marcus [mailto:marcus.mail@wtnet.de]
> Sent: Monday, November 08, 2021 5:57 PM
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
>
> Am 08.11.21 um 07:33 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Marcus [mailto:marcus.mail@wtnet.de]
> >> Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2021 7:48 PM
> >> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> >> Subject: Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
> >
> >> when you want to talk about this with names then I invite you
> >> to discuss
> >> this via private@.
> >
> > with pleasure, but not on private@, but by PM.
>
> sorry but please write to private@, so that we *all* can have
> the same
> information and can discuss it.
I'm afraid, Marcus, we have a problem of understanding what "all" means. For me, this is the community and not a few privileged people who are in PMC.
Why I no longer want to write to private@, namely because my experiences with requests to private@ are negative, I told you by PM.
For me, the greatest possible openness has always been a 'trademark' of the ASF, but with AOO I experience that the PMC tries to build up more insider knowledge than is necessary. Knowledge that should actually be known and discussed within the entire community.
So please excuse me, but I am not interested in secret talks with the PMC.
greetings,
Jörg
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Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Marcus <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Am 08.11.21 um 07:33 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Marcus [mailto:marcus.mail@wtnet.de]
>> Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2021 7:48 PM
>> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
>
>> when you want to talk about this with names then I invite you
>> to discuss
>> this via private@.
>
> with pleasure, but not on private@, but by PM.
sorry but please write to private@, so that we *all* can have the same
information and can discuss it.
PS:
I'm writing this here, so that you know why I don't answer your PM.
Thanks
Marcus
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RE: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marcus [mailto:marcus.mail@wtnet.de]
> Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2021 7:48 PM
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
> when you want to talk about this with names then I invite you
> to discuss
> this via private@.
with pleasure, but not on private@, but by PM.
Jörg
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RE: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marcus [mailto:marcus.mail@wtnet.de]
> Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2021 7:48 PM
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
>
> Am 07.11.21 um 13:38 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Marcus [mailto:marcus.mail@wtnet.de]
> >> Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2021 12:22 PM
> >> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> >> Subject: Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
> >
> >> I wonder who you want to delete from the list *).
> >>
> >> It is the normal way that over the time a person earns merit and
> >> therefor gets the committer - and maybe also PMC - status when the
> >> contributions are good and qualifies for it.
> >
> > Why do we not see this way, but have to realise that some
> people work actively for OpenOffice for many, many years and
> are denied membership in the PMC, while other new project
> members are promoted to the PMC within a few months?
>
> when you want to talk about this with names then I invite you
> to discuss
> this via private@.
>
> Marcus
>
>
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Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Marcus <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Am 07.11.21 um 13:38 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Marcus [mailto:marcus.mail@wtnet.de]
>> Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2021 12:22 PM
>> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
>
>> I wonder who you want to delete from the list *).
>>
>> It is the normal way that over the time a person earns merit and
>> therefor gets the committer - and maybe also PMC - status when the
>> contributions are good and qualifies for it.
>
> Why do we not see this way, but have to realise that some people work actively for OpenOffice for many, many years and are denied membership in the PMC, while other new project members are promoted to the PMC within a few months?
when you want to talk about this with names then I invite you to discuss
this via private@.
Marcus
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RE: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marcus [mailto:marcus.mail@wtnet.de]
> Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2021 12:22 PM
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
>
> I wonder who you want to delete from the list *).
>
> It is the normal way that over the time a person earns merit and
> therefor gets the committer - and maybe also PMC - status when the
> contributions are good and qualifies for it.
Why do we not see this way, but have to realise that some people work actively for OpenOffice for many, many years and are denied membership in the PMC, while other new project members are promoted to the PMC within a few months?
Jörg
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Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Marcus <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Am 06.11.21 um 22:34 schrieb Dave:
> On 06/11/2021 19:26, Dave Fisher wrote:
>>> On Nov 6, 2021, at 3:45 AM, Dave <bm...@apache.org> wrote:
>>> On 06/11/2021 10:30, Marcus wrote:
>>>> Am 06.11.21 um 10:16 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
>>>>> following Dave's advice {1], I contacted one moderator of the list
>>>>> users-de@openoffice.apache.org I know and was promised that spam
>>>>> emails would be rejected in future - unfortunately, however, no action
>>>>> was taken, because there is spam again from the sender on the list
>>>>> that I had specifically pointed out.
>>>>>
>>>>> Can someone please tell me who moderates this list? I would then try
>>>>> to write to another moderator and ask for help.
>>>>>
>>>>> [1]
>>>>> see the thread "How to delete a wrong email list subscription?"
>>>>
>>>> I can see that Michael and Dave could be moderators of the list. But
>>>> maybe it's a bit outdated.
>>>>
>>> I have been a moderator for some of our English lists since the
>>> project's poddling days. Unfortunately, my knowledge of German is not
>>> very good, so I would not be of much help for the German users list.
>>>
>>> I have asked before why the PMC does not wish moderators to be
>>> identified, but never received any rational answer.
>>
>> Providing a clear identification of moderators would be a privacy challenge.
>>
>> The mechanism to contact moderators is to send an email to users-de-owners@openoffice.apache.org
>
> As a separate issue, the above mentioned link is seriously in need of
> review and update, because many of the people mentioned are no longer
> active in, or have resigned from the positions listed.
I wonder who you want to delete from the list *).
It is the normal way that over the time a person earns merit and
therefor gets the committer - and maybe also PMC - status when the
contributions are good and qualifies for it.
However, merit lies with the individual and does not expire. It's not
normal to remove this status just because of inactivity [1].
> Also one person listed regrettably passed away last month.
OK, here you are right. However, this page is not under our control and
has to be updated by the ASF.
[1] https://infra.apache.org/committers.html
see "Is there a set term for acting as a Committer? Will I have to be
elected again?"
Marcus
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Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Dave <bm...@apache.org>.
On 06/11/2021 19:26, Dave Fisher wrote:
>
>
>> On Nov 6, 2021, at 3:45 AM, Dave <bm...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> On 06/11/2021 10:30, Marcus wrote:
>>> Am 06.11.21 um 10:16 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
>>>> following Dave's advice {1], I contacted one moderator of the list
>>>> users-de@openoffice.apache.org I know and was promised that spam
>>>> emails would be rejected in future - unfortunately, however, no action
>>>> was taken, because there is spam again from the sender on the list
>>>> that I had specifically pointed out.
>>>>
>>>> Can someone please tell me who moderates this list? I would then try
>>>> to write to another moderator and ask for help.
>>>>
>>>> [1]
>>>> see the thread "How to delete a wrong email list subscription?"
>>>
>>> I can see that Michael and Dave could be moderators of the list. But
>>> maybe it's a bit outdated.
>>>
>>> Marcus
>>
>> I have been a moderator for some of our English lists since the
>> project's poddling days. Unfortunately, my knowledge of German is not
>> very good, so I would not be of much help for the German users list.
>>
>> I have asked before why the PMC does not wish moderators to be
>> identified, but never received any rational answer.
>
> Providing a clear identification of moderators would be a privacy challenge.
>
> The mechanism to contact moderators is to send an email to users-de-owners@openoffice.apache.org
>
> Regards,
> Dave
>
>>
>> Dave
Sorry to put it this way Dave, but this is the same answer that I have
had received from you and other PMC members previously.
If your statement is true, then we and the ASF have a very serious and
extreme privacy challenge here:
https://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html#openoffice
In my view anyone who "steps up to he plate" for ANY role in an OPEN
source project should not have any concerns about being identified a
contributor and their role that project. I am not ashamed of being
identified as a (very small, relatively unimportant) contributor to the
AOO project and I suggest that ANYONE who is wishes to adopt this
underhanded, secretive approach, should step away from the project.
Yes, my commentary will be misinterpreted by some as inflammatory, but
like Jörg I am both a supporter and critic of the AOO project.
As a separate issue, the above mentioned link is seriously in need of
review and update, because many of the people mentioned are no longer
active in, or have resigned from the positions listed. Also one person
listed regrettably passed away last month.
Regards
Dave
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Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Marcus <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Am 06.11.21 um 21:11 schrieb Dr. Michael Stehmann:
> Am 06.11.21 um 20:26 schrieb Dave Fisher:
>
>> The mechanism to contact moderators is to send an email to
>> users-de-owners@openoffice.apache.org
>
> I've gotten one from Marcus, but it was really empty.
I've just tried to find out who the moderators of the list are. It was
not working as I thought. ;-) Then I found the info via Whimsy.
Marcus
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Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by "Dr. Michael Stehmann" <an...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de>.
Hello,
Am 06.11.21 um 20:26 schrieb Dave Fisher:
> The mechanism to contact moderators is to send an email to users-de-owners@openoffice.apache.org
>
I've gotten one from Marcus, but it was really empty.
Kind regards
Michael
Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Dave Fisher <wa...@apache.org>.
> On Nov 6, 2021, at 3:45 AM, Dave <bm...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On 06/11/2021 10:30, Marcus wrote:
>> Am 06.11.21 um 10:16 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
>>> following Dave's advice {1], I contacted one moderator of the list
>>> users-de@openoffice.apache.org I know and was promised that spam
>>> emails would be rejected in future - unfortunately, however, no action
>>> was taken, because there is spam again from the sender on the list
>>> that I had specifically pointed out.
>>>
>>> Can someone please tell me who moderates this list? I would then try
>>> to write to another moderator and ask for help.
>>>
>>> [1]
>>> see the thread "How to delete a wrong email list subscription?"
>>
>> I can see that Michael and Dave could be moderators of the list. But
>> maybe it's a bit outdated.
>>
>> Marcus
>
> I have been a moderator for some of our English lists since the
> project's poddling days. Unfortunately, my knowledge of German is not
> very good, so I would not be of much help for the German users list.
>
> I have asked before why the PMC does not wish moderators to be
> identified, but never received any rational answer.
Providing a clear identification of moderators would be a privacy challenge.
The mechanism to contact moderators is to send an email to users-de-owners@openoffice.apache.org
Regards,
Dave
>
> Dave
>
>
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RE: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
Hello Dave,
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave [mailto:bmcs@apache.org]
> Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2021 11:45 AM
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
> I have been a moderator for some of our English lists since the
> project's poddling days. Unfortunately, my knowledge of German is not
> very good, so I would not be of much help for the German users list.
I can only describe my situation quite openly:
I wrote to Michael by PM because I know him as a moderator. Unfortunately, Michael's reaction was that he felt disturbed by my PM and stressed that there were other moderators.
I then wrote to dev@ again, because it needs a solution and not just nice words.
> I have asked before why the PMC does not wish moderators to be
> identified, but never received any rational answer.
That is a very intresting observation respectivly question.
greetings,
Jörg
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Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Dave <bm...@apache.org>.
On 06/11/2021 10:30, Marcus wrote:
> Am 06.11.21 um 10:16 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
>> following Dave's advice {1], I contacted one moderator of the list
>> users-de@openoffice.apache.org I know and was promised that spam
>> emails would be rejected in future - unfortunately, however, no action
>> was taken, because there is spam again from the sender on the list
>> that I had specifically pointed out.
>>
>> Can someone please tell me who moderates this list? I would then try
>> to write to another moderator and ask for help.
>>
>> [1]
>> see the thread "How to delete a wrong email list subscription?"
>
> I can see that Michael and Dave could be moderators of the list. But
> maybe it's a bit outdated.
>
> Marcus
I have been a moderator for some of our English lists since the
project's poddling days. Unfortunately, my knowledge of German is not
very good, so I would not be of much help for the German users list.
I have asked before why the PMC does not wish moderators to be
identified, but never received any rational answer.
Dave
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Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Gavin McDonald <gm...@apache.org>.
On Sat, Nov 6, 2021 at 11:30 AM Marcus <ma...@wtnet.de> wrote:
> Am 06.11.21 um 10:16 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
> > following Dave's advice {1], I contacted one moderator of the list
> users-de@openoffice.apache.org I know and was promised that spam emails
> would be rejected in future - unfortunately, however, no action was taken,
> because there is spam again from the sender on the list that I had
> specifically pointed out.
> >
> > Can someone please tell me who moderates this list? I would then try to
> write to another moderator and ask for help.
> >
> > [1]
> > see the thread "How to delete a wrong email list subscription?"
>
> I can see that Michael and Dave could be moderators of the list. But
> maybe it's a bit outdated.
>
That is the current correct list of moderators.
> Marcus
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
--
*Gavin McDonald*
Systems Administrator
ASF Infrastructure Team
Re: Who moderates users-de@openoffice.apache.org?
Posted by Marcus <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Am 06.11.21 um 10:16 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
> following Dave's advice {1], I contacted one moderator of the list users-de@openoffice.apache.org I know and was promised that spam emails would be rejected in future - unfortunately, however, no action was taken, because there is spam again from the sender on the list that I had specifically pointed out.
>
> Can someone please tell me who moderates this list? I would then try to write to another moderator and ask for help.
>
> [1]
> see the thread "How to delete a wrong email list subscription?"
I can see that Michael and Dave could be moderators of the list. But
maybe it's a bit outdated.
Marcus
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