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Posted to dev@avalon.apache.org by Peter Donald <pe...@realityforge.org> on 2002/12/04 13:06:45 UTC
[Proposal] Remove all/most one-man codebases
Hi,
One of the problems that has plagued Avalon is the result of one-man
codebases. I propose we remove almost all of these withing the next month.
They can be moved to jakarta-commons, the incubator or to sourceforge as the
developer wishes.
However I would exclude a few things from this for practical reasons. These
things being
* tweety as it is a nice learning tool and could form part of our
documentation rather than as a codebase.
* xfc as it will hopefully be integrated into fortress soon and in many ways
is an extension of that.
* extension should stay until Assembly decouples from it or until a better
migration path can be developed for it
The stuff can come back later if it ever gets multiple people consistently
maintining it but until then we can move it out.
Thoughts/Votes?
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Cheers,
Peter Donald
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Re: [Proposal] Remove all/most one-man codebases
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Peter Donald wrote:
>Hi,
>
>One of the problems that has plagued Avalon is the result of one-man
>codebases. I propose we remove almost all of these withing the next month.
>They can be moved to jakarta-commons, the incubator or to sourceforge as the
>developer wishes.
>
>However I would exclude a few things from this for practical reasons. These
>things being
>* tweety as it is a nice learning tool and could form part of our
>documentation rather than as a codebase.
>* xfc as it will hopefully be integrated into fortress soon and in many ways
>is an extension of that.
>
XFC is about adapting different models - it should become part of
Fortress - it should remain a seperate project that is used by different
containers.
>* extension should stay until Assembly decouples from it or until a better
>migration path can be developed for it
>
>The stuff can come back later if it ever gets multiple people consistently
>maintining it but until then we can move it out.
>
>Thoughts/Votes?
>
>
So which packages did you have in mind specifically?
Steve.
>
>
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Re: [Proposal] Remove all/most one-man codebases
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Peter Donald wrote:
>Hi,
>
>One of the problems that has plagued Avalon is the result of one-man
>codebases. I propose we remove almost all of these withing the next month.
>They can be moved to jakarta-commons, the incubator or to sourceforge as the
>developer wishes.
>
>However I would exclude a few things from this for practical reasons. These
>things being
>* tweety as it is a nice learning tool and could form part of our
>documentation rather than as a codebase.
>* xfc as it will hopefully be integrated into fortress soon and in many ways
>is an extension of that.
>
XFC is about adapting different models - it should become part of
Fortress - it should remain a seperate project that is used by different
containers.
>* extension should stay until Assembly decouples from it or until a better
>migration path can be developed for it
>
>The stuff can come back later if it ever gets multiple people consistently
>maintining it but until then we can move it out.
>
>Thoughts/Votes?
>
>
So which packages did you have in mind specifically?
Steve.
>
>
--
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Re: [Proposal] Remove all/most one-man codebases
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Peter Donald wrote:
>Hi,
>
>One of the problems that has plagued Avalon is the result of one-man
>codebases. I propose we remove almost all of these withing the next month.
>They can be moved to jakarta-commons, the incubator or to sourceforge as the
>developer wishes.
>
>However I would exclude a few things from this for practical reasons. These
>things being
>* tweety as it is a nice learning tool and could form part of our
>documentation rather than as a codebase.
>* xfc as it will hopefully be integrated into fortress soon and in many ways
>is an extension of that.
>
XFC is about adapting different models - it should become part of
Fortress - it should remain a seperate project that is used by different
containers.
>* extension should stay until Assembly decouples from it or until a better
>migration path can be developed for it
>
>The stuff can come back later if it ever gets multiple people consistently
>maintining it but until then we can move it out.
>
>Thoughts/Votes?
>
>
So which packages did you have in mind specifically?
Steve.
>
>
--
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OSM SARL
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mailto:mcconnell@osm.net
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Re: [Proposal] Remove all/most one-man codebases
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Peter Donald wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Dec 2002 23:43, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
>>I will vote on these only when I see a clear indication of where they
>>will go, who will do it, etc.
>
> I will move stuff to sourceforge project(s) for all the codebases that I am
> the only developer for. Hopefully this should reduce the perception that I am
> "dominating" avalon due to quantity of code that I have written that is here.
You can do as you wish as long as you follow the Apache license.
IMO it won't help though, since the problem doesn't lie in the code, but
in the people.
>>I'm talking mostly about Jakarta Commons, that has already accepted much
>>of our code, and can still accept many of the packages we have in
>>Excalibur.
>
> moving code around is just that - moving code around.
No, this is about putting the code where there are people who will
maintain and enhance it, care for it. That's why I want concrete
solutions to where the codebases go: not where phisically but to which
projects-communities.
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Re: [Proposal] Remove all/most one-man codebases
Posted by Peter Donald <pe...@realityforge.org>.
On Thu, 5 Dec 2002 23:43, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> I will vote on these only when I see a clear indication of where they
> will go, who will do it, etc.
I will move stuff to sourceforge project(s) for all the codebases that I am
the only developer for. Hopefully this should reduce the perception that I am
"dominating" avalon due to quantity of code that I have written that is here.
> I'm talking mostly about Jakarta Commons, that has already accepted much
> of our code, and can still accept many of the packages we have in
> Excalibur.
moving code around is just that - moving code around.
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Cheers,
Peter Donald
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Re: [Proposal] Remove all/most one-man codebases
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Peter Donald wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Dec 2002 23:43, Leo Sutic wrote:
>
>>>From: Peter Donald [mailto:peter@realityforge.org]
>>>
>>>Hi,
>>>
>>>One of the problems that has plagued Avalon is the result of one-man
>>>codebases. I propose we remove almost all of these withing
>>>the next month.
>>>They can be moved to jakarta-commons, the incubator or to
>>>sourceforge as the
>>>developer wishes.
>>>
>>>Thoughts/Votes?
I think that this vote has a very negative connotation.
I will vote on these only when I see a clear indication of where they
will go, who will do it, etc.
I'm talking mostly about Jakarta Commons, that has already accepted much
of our code, and can still accept many of the packages we have in Excalibur.
Stephen C. , would you ming giving us a hand and proposing packages to
be moved over? It has already been listed some time back also on JC
list, so you can find some info in the archives.
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Re: [Proposal] Remove all/most one-man codebases
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
Peter Royal wrote:
> On Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 09:21 AM, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
>> Clarification: your privileges have been suspended for 90 days by the
>> Apache board. You are warmly invited to influence the community with
>> concrete proposals, suggestions, discussions, and patches. Your
>> patches have been committed in this period very quickly BTW.
>
>
> Who makes the decision to reinstate his privileges? Is that something
> that each community that Peter is a member of needs to decide for
> themselves?
>
> ie is it possible to propose a vote here to reinstate Peter's (at least)
> voting privileges and (at most) cvs commit access?
> -pete
My understanding is that Peter needs to finish his talks with the Board,
and asure him that he will abide by their resolutions.
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Re: [Proposal] Remove all/most one-man codebases
Posted by Peter Royal <pr...@apache.org>.
On Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 09:21 AM, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> Clarification: your privileges have been suspended for 90 days by the
> Apache board. You are warmly invited to influence the community with
> concrete proposals, suggestions, discussions, and patches. Your
> patches have been committed in this period very quickly BTW.
Who makes the decision to reinstate his privileges? Is that something
that each community that Peter is a member of needs to decide for
themselves?
ie is it possible to propose a vote here to reinstate Peter's (at
least) voting privileges and (at most) cvs commit access?
-pete
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Re: [Proposal] Remove all/most one-man codebases
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Peter Donald wrote:
[...]
> There some like me who can no longer contribute. I am still not really clear
> on why my cvs access was removed - however it was and is unlikely to be
> returned. It seems like Nicola has decided that I no longer have other rights
> such as voting rights. So there is little chance of influence there. All in
> all my ability to contribute has been mostly removed.
Clarification: your privileges have been suspended for 90 days by the
Apache board. You are warmly invited to influence the community with
concrete proposals, suggestions, discussions, and patches. Your patches
have been committed in this period very quickly BTW.
[...]
> Removing all one man code bases would effectively fix the problem in many
> ways. If you have a better idea then please share.
avalon-sandbox is a first step in clearing the codebase.
Moving non-Avalon components from Excalibur is another.
Let's remain constructive and indicate concrete and viable proposals.
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Re: [Proposal] Remove all/most one-man codebases
Posted by Ulrich Mayring <ul...@denic.de>.
Peter Donald wrote:
>
> There some like me who can no longer contribute. I am still not really clear
> on why my cvs access was removed - however it was and is unlikely to be
> returned. It seems like Nicola has decided that I no longer have other rights
> such as voting rights. So there is little chance of influence there. All in
> all my ability to contribute has been mostly removed.
I am speaking as a complete outsider to this problem, because I'm not a
contributor (except the odd bug report or so) but also as someone, who
is interested in the proliferation of Avalon.
In OpenSource projects there is usually a "order of merit". He, who
contributes much of the code in one area, is fairly automatically a
committer and an important decision-maker. If that person doesn't agree
with the rest of the community and the differences are unbridgeable (as
it seems here), then a split of the community results. No amount of
discussion is going to change that.
Should that happen to Avalon or Phoenix, then the users will decide the
whole issue and no amount of voting (whether unanimous or majority) can
change that. The users will either stay or they will go with the
important contributor, depending on where they feel "their" investment
is maintained best.
So, dear developers, if you can't agree, then we users will decide ;-)
On a small level this "forking of communities" happens every day. People
leave a project and join another one, that's fairly normal. If the idea
as such is viable, then the project will live. Look at fop and how their
roster of major developers has changed over the years. Other projects,
which do not have enough appeal, die, when the major contributors leave
- and perhaps it should be that way :)
Ulrich
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Re: [Proposal] Remove all/most one-man codebases
Posted by Paul Hammant <Pa...@yahoo.com>.
Peter
>- look to how Stefano acts like a tool everytime someone mentions anakia or
>says Cocoon is not the brightest star in the sky.
>
>
Don't start using phrases like the above dude. You've held back on
comments like this to date. Don't start now. It is one of your talents -
holding others in high esteem.
-ph
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Re: [Proposal] Remove all/most one-man codebases
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@apache.org>.
In article <20...@realityforge.org>, "Peter Donald"
<pe...@realityforge.org> wrote:
>...
> There some like me who can no longer contribute. I am still not really
> clear on why my cvs access was removed - however it was and is unlikely
> to be returned.
You have exchanged numerous (private) emails on the subject with Sam. If
he has not been able to explain, then I would recommend that you talk to
board@apache.org rather than an individual. As a group, it may be easier
to find the right explanations. board@ is readable by all ASF members,
however; if that makes you uncomfortable, then please email me and I'll
let tell you the private list for just the Board members and we can
discuss on that list.
All that said, as others on this list have noted: the proper forum is with
the Board rather than here.
> It seems like Nicola has decided that I no longer have other rights such
> as voting rights.
Nicola didn't decide that. The Board did when it suspended your commit
privileges. Nicola *did* ask for clarification on whether that also meant
a suspension of *binding* votes, and we responded "yes." Nicola is just
the messenger.
Hell, Nicola is just another Avalon guy. He should not presume any
distinction, and others should not impose any distinction on him. The
Board sees him differently, but that shouldn't "bleed through" to the
community.
But honestly: whether your votes are binding or non-binding has *very*
little relevance at this point in time. "Why?" you might ask... the simple
answer is that +1/+0/-0/-1 voting should only be a quick way to express an
opinion. If you have to count them, then you don't have consensus.
Further, I think the issues that need voting on right now are unrelated to
the code itself, but mostly procedural type things. The code is the only
thing that requires binding votes because in this sense, "binding" means
the PMC members who are responsible for that code. If you're not voting on
*code* then binding votes have less importance. To get really technical,
what it means is the PMC is getting a feeling of the community and
(presumably) agreeing with and carrying out those actions. Yes, the PMC
could theoretically ignore the community and the non-binding votes that
occurred, but that would be rather ludicrous.
Cheers,
-g
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Re: [Proposal] Remove all/most one-man codebases
Posted by Ulrich Mayring <ul...@mayring.de>.
Leo Simons wrote:
>
> whatever. Stefano's reaction I've seen, when someone mentions cocoon is
> not the brightest star in the sky, he responds along the lines of
> "perhaps not, but the community is real healthy and there's lots of
> potential". Good reaction.
Stefano can indeed get a little snappy, when he has a bad day. I can,
too. We're all just humans. Let's worry about more important things :)
Ulrich
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Re: [Proposal] Remove all/most one-man codebases
Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 2002-12-05 at 14:34, Peter Donald wrote:
> There some like me who can no longer contribute. I am still not really clear
> on why my cvs access was removed - however it was and is unlikely to be
> returned. It seems like Nicola has decided that I no longer have other rights
> such as voting rights. So there is little chance of influence there. All in
> all my ability to contribute has been mostly removed.
I count and respect your votes. I'm not sure what the idea is wrt how
they should be counted "officially" and I hope it won't need to be an
issue. I don't know what the best way is to clarify this issue; probably
you contacting the board?
I value your input (as I've said before) and I am happy to apply patches
you send.
Nicola hasn't decided anything wrt to your voting rights. He hasn't made
any opinion on this matter public. Regardless, he won't be acting on
such an opinion unless it's shared by the community. (or else..... ;))
> However by far the biggest problem is that many people are not here purely for
> the benefit of Avalon as a whole.
as long as those people are either here for the benefit of apache as a
whole, or their actions are not detrimental to apache as a whole and/or
avalon as a whole, I don't think that's a problem. I'm also here for my
own benefit, definitely. I learn lots of stuff everyday here.
I don't think this is a problem.
> - how long have we needed to move to maven for our builds.
we do?
> I know of at least
> three different committers who have expressed a desire to move towards it but
> are reluctent to propose it because they will be jumped on by Nicola.
if this is true, let someone contact me privately and I will propose it
once I understand the need. I think it is very bad (and also unfounded)
that anyone should be afraid of being "jumped on by Nicola" and we need
to remedy that. Probably the best way is by example.
> - look to how Stefano acts like a tool everytime someone mentions anakia or
> says Cocoon is not the brightest star in the sky.
whatever. Stefano's reaction I've seen, when someone mentions cocoon is
not the brightest star in the sky, he responds along the lines of
"perhaps not, but the community is real healthy and there's lots of
potential". Good reaction.
> - look at conflict between info/meta. Info is technically a far better choice
I think there's disagreement in that area. Let's hold that discussion
as part of the next-gen development and make a community decision.
> but there is little chance of going wit it without massive conflict/FUD.
> There are two people who have said to me that they will block it regardless
> of technical merit (and neither was Stephen).
I sincerely doubt that would or will happen.
> Personally I think that *all* decisions should require the consensus of *all*
> committers.
...to the maximum extend possible. Totally agreed. And non-committing
interested parties too if possible, btw.
> We have always gone out of our way to allow and encourage experimentation and
> except for more recent times there has never been code ownership for these
> experiments because it was always assumed that the group "owned" the code.
> And the experiments always assumed that if successful they would be
> reintegrated or built upon or whatever. When new people start to associate
> these experiments with so heavily negative concepts (aka forks and code
> ownership) does that not indicate to you that there is problems.
yes.
> Removing all one man code bases would effectively fix the problem in many
> ways. If you have a better idea then please share.
here's one: remove the code ownership perception. Go out of our way a
little extra to make sure future development does not suffer from "code
ownership" issues. Start with a fresh base developed together so all
past notions of code ownership perception are completely removed.
cheers,
- Leo
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Re: [Proposal] Remove all/most one-man codebases
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
Peter Donald wrote:
> Ok - then tell me. How are things ever going to get better in Avalon then? We
> have codebases in Avalon that are divisve - all of them one-man codebases.
>
> Sure we can propose a new framework/container...
>
> Technically that is high risk, with a long incubation period and it is likely
> that a year from now it will still suck.
I like your optimism ;P
> Socially it is unlikely to go much better and will likely only cause more
> division/polarization. We already have seen oodles of FUD and insults at even
> the mention of these things.
So far, the greatest amount of divisiveness has come from two people.
We must learn to axe our egos, open our ears, and shut our mouths.
> So whatever way you cut it you are setting Avalon up for a fall because code
> means nothing without community and in this environment there is little
> chance of community.
We can get there, we just need some humility.
> - how long have we needed to move to maven for our builds. I know of at least
> three different committers who have expressed a desire to move towards it but
> are reluctent to propose it because they will be jumped on by Nicola. Sure it
> would be in Avalons best interests to upgrade (at least excalibur/scratchpad)
> to maven but it wouldn't be in centipedes best interest and thus ...
That's not the biggest issue.
> - look to how Stefano acts like a tool everytime someone mentions anakia or
> says Cocoon is not the brightest star in the sky.
Again, this doesn't really affect the comunity.
> - look at conflict between info/meta. Info is technically a far better choice
> but there is little chance of going wit it without massive conflict/FUD.
> There are two people who have said to me that they will block it regardless
> of technical merit (and neither was Stephen).
Again, a fresh start will sidestep the issue completely.
The bottom line is this: there is too much self interest. To me, the
chief interest right now is Avalon. I am not spending any time on any
other project at the moment. I am trying to help us come to some
agreements. I have some more to say in another email, but for the
moment let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
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Re: [Proposal] Remove all/most one-man codebases
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Peter Donald wrote:
> - look to how Stefano acts like a tool everytime someone mentions anakia or
> says Cocoon is not the brightest star in the sky.
Please, point us to the messages you are talking about.
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RE: [Proposal] Remove all/most one-man codebases
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> We have codebases in Avalon that are divisve - all of them one-man
> codebases.
Start with a new avalon module. The Community has to decide what to accept
into it. Mantra: decide as a Community, support as a Community, fix as a
Community.
> Sure we can propose a new framework/container...
> Technically that is high risk, with a long incubation period and
> it is likely that a year from now it will still suck.
(1) Avalon 4 is good now, and will receive on-going development as-is within
its existing CVS modules. (2) Avalon 5 may take time, but that isn't a bad
thing, given #1. (3) I don't agree with your a priori assumption of
quality. You've already pointed out how much has been learned, and that
there are things that you'd do differently (as well as parts you'd throw out
wholesale).
> Socially it is unlikely to go much better and will likely
> only cause more division/polarization.
I disagree. One thing that will help the project socially is for everyone
to start accepting communal responsibility for the entire project, with the
possible exception of projects in avalon-sandbox. Again, another reason for
having one avalon CVS module.
> We already have seen oodles of FUD and insults at even
> the mention of these things.
There is a lot of energy going into the status quo.
> So whatever way you cut it you are setting Avalon up for a fall
> because code means nothing without community and in this
> environment there is little chance of community.
The latter MUST change, and then the former is no longer true.
> I am still not really clear on why my cvs access was removed
Sorry to hear that. Can't help you there. But you know whom CAN tell you
what you don't know, and they are whom you should contact.
> It seems like Nicola has decided that I no longer have other rights
> such as voting rights.
I hadn't noticed. In my mind, I count your vote, even when I disagree with
you. But then again, I mentally count votes from any party with an
intelligent outlook.
> So there is little chance of influence there. All in all
> my ability to contribute has been mostly removed.
Are you joking? Hello! Peter, take a look at the world. You express
yourself and people respond. You HAVE influenced events, and will continue
to do so in-so-far as you choose to participate.
> However by far the biggest problem is that many people are
> not here purely for the benefit of Avalon as a whole.
Anyone who isn't here for the benefit of Avalon, ought to remove themselves
or change their mindset. Mind you, those of us who are Avalon consumers
have our reasons for wanting Avalon to succeeed.
> how long have we needed to move to maven for our builds.
> I know of at least three different committers who have
> expressed a desire to move towards it but are reluctent
> to propose it because they will be jumped on by Nicola.
<<shrug>> Nicola didn't say "boo" when we talked about possibly moving to
Maven for James. We are considering using Maven with Forrest, and have both
a Maven guy and a Forrest guy (Nicola) lined up to help.
> would be in Avalons best interests to upgrade [to maven]
> but it wouldn't be in centipedes best interest
As I said, Nicola didn't say anything on the James list, other than to take
the time and do a Forrest prototype for us after we asked.
> look to how Stefano acts like a tool everytime someone ...
Is this really necessary? The Maven comment was at least related to Avalon.
This was gratuituous.
> look at conflict between info/meta. Info is technically a far
> better choice but there is little chance of going wit it
> without massive conflict/FUD.
Let's discuss this in the context of Avalon 5. I'm already convinced that
Avalon 4 will stay as chaotic as it is, and that the only way to move
forward is with a single, new, community project.
> There are two people who have said to me that they will
> block it regardless of technical merit (and neither was
> Stephen).
Do you really think that the Community would permit something important to
be blocked for no technical merit? You've already seen and agreed to my
comments on -1 vetoes. Does that sound like an approach doesn't deal with
technical merit?
> I could continue to list the problems. Many committers seem
> to think that consensus == majority vote
Adopt the ASF policies by reference, and they tell you exactly how the
process works. If there is a problem in process, it will be worked out by
the larger Community.
> until recently all management decisions required 100%
> of us onboard but now we have seen a number of votes
> pushed through with a simple majority
Majority vote is the ASF policy with respect to procedural issues, not
technical matters. If the application of majority rule on procedural issues
wasn't clear before (it was not to me, by the way), it is clear now from the
revised documents. And now I know where to go if I have an issue
interpreting the policy documents.
My philosophy is simple: an ASF project is governed by ASF rules. Those are
the rules. 'nuf said. If they are to be changed, change them at the ASF
level. In the meantime, adopted them.
> in short enough time frame to stop any possibility
> of people thinking things through.
That was wrong, people have said as much, and people are on guard against it
again.
> Someone recently said something along the lines of "avalon bad as
> forks are seen as path forward" or similar which characterises
> how bad a situation it has got.
I think that is a paraphrase of my comment in "How NOT to Move Forward", and
I agree that the situation has gotten bad.
> When new people start to associate these experiments with
> so heavily negative concepts (aka forks and code ownership)
> does that not indicate to you that there is problems.
Since I'm the one who said it, the answer is YES.
> Removing all one man code bases would effectively fix
> the problem in many ways. If you have a better idea
> then please share.
Leave Avalon 4 alone, create the new avalon CVS module. Start as you intend
to go on, and adopt into it as a Community, supported by a Community, fixed
as a Community.
--- Noel
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RE: [Proposal] Remove all/most one-man codebases
Posted by Leo Sutic <le...@inspireinfrastructure.com>.
> From: Peter Donald [mailto:peter@realityforge.org]
>
> We have codebases in Avalon that are divisve - all of them
> one-man codebases.
> Removing all one man code bases would effectively fix the
> problem in many ways.
> If you have a better idea then please share.
I don't have a better idea, but I know that the removal is a
non-solution.
It's not the codebases themselves that are divisive. Suppose
we had moved meta and info out to sourceforge, with, as you say,
the intent that they will be let onboard again when they have
"proven themselves" in October.
Would that have stopped you and Stephen from arguing over
whether meta or info was the most worthy one to be let back?
It's not the code, it's the people.
It's not the fact that only one person works on the code,
it's the fact that the person working on that code has
some problems with parts of the rest of the group.
And moving the code away will not help, because the person
is still here. And even if the person is removed the problem
still remains.
/LS
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Re: [Proposal] Remove all/most one-man codebases
Posted by Peter Donald <pe...@realityforge.org>.
On Fri, 6 Dec 2002 03:35, Peter Royal wrote:
> > - how long have we needed to move to maven for our builds. I know of
> > at least
> > three different committers who have expressed a desire to move towards
> > it but
> > are reluctent to propose it because they will be jumped on by Nicola.
> > Sure it
> > would be in Avalons best interests to upgrade (at least
> > excalibur/scratchpad)
> > to maven but it wouldn't be in centipedes best interest and thus ...
>
> I'd love to. Maven's (alleged) speed problems worry me a bit but I know
> that is under active scrutinization by the Maven team. I thought jason
> van zyl volunteered at some point to set us up with a sample Maven
> build? did that not happen for political reasons, or is jason just
> (understandably) busy?
Last I heard Jason was still willing. Though I just started playing with Maven
a day or two ago and I don't think it would be hard for the rest of us to set
it up. The only thing I haven't looked at is the reactor thingie (ie like
depchecker but better). No idea how hard or easy that is to use.
--
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Peter Donald
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Re: [Proposal] Remove all/most one-man codebases
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Peter Royal wrote:
> it all comes down to intent. am i forking because i want to show the
> community something new without disturbing the mainline, or am i forking
> because joe schmoe is an ass and i think he sucks.
>
> big difference.
Yep.
And I'm getting sick of people on this list acting like crying babies
everytime they get a -1 on something they propose.
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Re: [Proposal] Remove all/most one-man codebases
Posted by Peter Royal <pr...@apache.org>.
On Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 08:34 AM, Peter Donald wrote:
> So whatever way you cut it you are setting Avalon up for a fall
> because code
> means nothing without community and in this environment there is little
> chance of community.
i see chance, but i am an optimist. its not going to be easy though.
> - how long have we needed to move to maven for our builds. I know of
> at least
> three different committers who have expressed a desire to move towards
> it but
> are reluctent to propose it because they will be jumped on by Nicola.
> Sure it
> would be in Avalons best interests to upgrade (at least
> excalibur/scratchpad)
> to maven but it wouldn't be in centipedes best interest and thus ...
I'd love to. Maven's (alleged) speed problems worry me a bit but I know
that is under active scrutinization by the Maven team. I thought jason
van zyl volunteered at some point to set us up with a sample Maven
build? did that not happen for political reasons, or is jason just
(understandably) busy?
> - look to how Stefano acts like a tool everytime someone mentions
> anakia or
> says Cocoon is not the brightest star in the sky.
mudslinging. unless you can provide references. but even then, it may
be perception of his words in email, and a reading into the tone and
such which is not conveyed well at all with straight ascii.
> - look at conflict between info/meta. Info is technically a far better
> choice
> but there is little chance of going wit it without massive
> conflict/FUD.
> There are two people who have said to me that they will block it
> regardless
> of technical merit (and neither was Stephen).
Such a block would be unsustainable since it would not have technical
merit. i have not looked at both in depth to say "info is technically a
far better choice", but that phrase could be deemed FUD by someone that
disagreed.
i think we will need a feature matrix comparing info/meta in order to
resolve that conflict at the technical level.
> Many committers seem to think that consensus == majority vote which is
> not a view I hold.
i agree with you consensus != majority. not by a long shot.
> Personally I think that *all* decisions should require the consensus
> of *all*
> committers.
I disagree there. not *all*. *most* though.
some things such as the "separate cvs repo for avalon5".. its basically
a "why vs why not" argument. in the end, its just another CVS repo that
holds code. i'm sure we all have many CVS trees on our drive. its just
a directory in a filesystem. big whoop.
technical and political decisions should require consensus. silly admin
things, most would probably be fine with a majority vote.
> We have always gone out of our way to allow and encourage
> experimentation and
> except for more recent times there has never been code ownership for
> these
> experiments because it was always assumed that the group "owned" the
> code.
> And the experiments always assumed that if successful they would be
> reintegrated or built upon or whatever. When new people start to
> associate
> these experiments with so heavily negative concepts (aka forks and code
> ownership) does that not indicate to you that there is problems.
>
> Removing all one man code bases would effectively fix the problem in
> many
> ways. If you have a better idea then please share.
+1
it all comes down to intent. am i forking because i want to show the
community something new without disturbing the mainline, or am i
forking because joe schmoe is an ass and i think he sucks.
big difference.
-pete
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Re: [Proposal] Remove all/most one-man codebases
Posted by Peter Donald <pe...@realityforge.org>.
Ok - then tell me. How are things ever going to get better in Avalon then? We
have codebases in Avalon that are divisve - all of them one-man codebases.
Sure we can propose a new framework/container...
Technically that is high risk, with a long incubation period and it is likely
that a year from now it will still suck.
Socially it is unlikely to go much better and will likely only cause more
division/polarization. We already have seen oodles of FUD and insults at even
the mention of these things.
So whatever way you cut it you are setting Avalon up for a fall because code
means nothing without community and in this environment there is little
chance of community.
There some like me who can no longer contribute. I am still not really clear
on why my cvs access was removed - however it was and is unlikely to be
returned. It seems like Nicola has decided that I no longer have other rights
such as voting rights. So there is little chance of influence there. All in
all my ability to contribute has been mostly removed.
However by far the biggest problem is that many people are not here purely for
the benefit of Avalon as a whole. For example;
- how long have we needed to move to maven for our builds. I know of at least
three different committers who have expressed a desire to move towards it but
are reluctent to propose it because they will be jumped on by Nicola. Sure it
would be in Avalons best interests to upgrade (at least excalibur/scratchpad)
to maven but it wouldn't be in centipedes best interest and thus ...
- look to how Stefano acts like a tool everytime someone mentions anakia or
says Cocoon is not the brightest star in the sky.
- look at conflict between info/meta. Info is technically a far better choice
but there is little chance of going wit it without massive conflict/FUD.
There are two people who have said to me that they will block it regardless
of technical merit (and neither was Stephen).
etc.
I could continue to list the problems. Many committers seem to think that
consensus == majority vote which is not a view I hold. Up until recently all
management decisions required 100% of us onboard but now we have seen a
number of votes pushed through with a simple majority and in short enough
time frame to stop any possibility of people thinking things through.
Personally I think that *all* decisions should require the consensus of *all*
committers. Someone recently said something along the lines of "avalon bad as
forks are seen as path forward" or similar which characterises how bad a
situation it has got.
We have always gone out of our way to allow and encourage experimentation and
except for more recent times there has never been code ownership for these
experiments because it was always assumed that the group "owned" the code.
And the experiments always assumed that if successful they would be
reintegrated or built upon or whatever. When new people start to associate
these experiments with so heavily negative concepts (aka forks and code
ownership) does that not indicate to you that there is problems.
Removing all one man code bases would effectively fix the problem in many
ways. If you have a better idea then please share.
--
Cheers,
Peter Donald
*--------------------------------*
| Every rule has an exception, |
| except the rule of exceptions. |
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RE: [Proposal] Remove all/most one-man codebases
Posted by Leo Sutic <le...@inspireinfrastructure.com>.
> From: Peter Donald [mailto:peter@realityforge.org]
>
> naming/ *
-1 for this one: It has been part of the old excalibur-all package,
and has not stirred any controversy. Let it be.
> policy/ *
No opinion.
> assembly/ *
-1: Given that we're working on a new container I think Merlin
will merge into that. No need to kick it out. (Not worth the
fighting.)
> extension/ * (though we need to provide migration path out)
> bzip2/ *
No opinion on those...
> info/ *
-1: The package seemed reasonable. Could be used to get a
framework-level metainfo set up.
> cache/
> interceptor/ *
> tar/ *
> threadcontext/ *
> jprocess/ *
No opinion.
> tweety/
See below.
> containerkit/ *
-0: Isn't this being used?
> converter/ *
> xfc/
> csframework/
> loader/ *
> zip/ *
No opinion.
> meta/ *
-1: Same reasons as info/
> I think tweety should be removed as a codebase and integrated into
> Avalon/Framework as a documentation artefact rather than as a
> codebase.
Sounds reasonable.
/LS
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RE: [Proposal] Remove all/most one-man codebases
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Why REMOVE anything?
If you leave Avalon 4 exactly has it is, in the current CVS modules, and you
create the new avalon module, then you place into the new module exactly
those things that the community wants for the new basis.
As for the notion of one-man codebases, that has to disappear as a mindset.
The COMMUNITY is responsible for ALL code. Period.
Which is why there should be one cvs module.
It is amazing how much energy is being expended to avoid doing the one thing
that needs to happen: acting like a Community.
--- Noel
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Re: [Proposal] Remove all/most one-man codebases
Posted by Peter Donald <pe...@realityforge.org>.
On Wed, 4 Dec 2002 23:43, Leo Sutic wrote:
> > From: Peter Donald [mailto:peter@realityforge.org]
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > One of the problems that has plagued Avalon is the result of one-man
> > codebases. I propose we remove almost all of these withing
> > the next month.
> > They can be moved to jakarta-commons, the incubator or to
> > sourceforge as the
> > developer wishes.
> >
> > Thoughts/Votes?
>
> What codebases do you refer to?
Well all the ones that cause conflict are one-man codebases so they are the
primary ones I want to see removed. That way Avalon can not be used as a
distribution point for pet projects and more importantly it is not seen to be
a personal playground.
Removing all these things would mean a reduction in problems IMHO - especially
if people are forced to develope them elsewhere and only when they have the
support of the whole Avalon community are they allowed to return.
Other non-controvertial codebases can end up in sandbox if needs be but that
needs to be something that is approved by all committers or not.
So the codebases that are essentially one man shoes include the following.
Note that I marked those with a * that I think should move out.
naming/ *
policy/ *
assembly/ *
extension/ * (though we need to provide migration path out)
bzip2/ *
info/ *
cache/
interceptor/ *
tar/ *
threadcontext/ *
jprocess/ *
tweety/
containerkit/ *
converter/ *
xfc/
csframework/
loader/ *
zip/ *
meta/ *
I think tweety should be removed as a codebase and integrated into
Avalon/Framework as a documentation artefact rather than as a codebase.
XFC is too important as it provides a migration path from ECM to fortress to
move out.
csframework causes no problems so let it stay IMHO.
In -apps CVS there is probably other codebases that can be migrated to sandbox
or out but the only one that I believe causes any heartburn is the enterprise
stuff so the rest can stay (in sandbox if necessary).
--
Cheers,
Peter Donald
"The ability to quote is a serviceable substitute for wit." -- Maugham
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RE: [Proposal] Remove all/most one-man codebases
Posted by Leo Sutic <le...@inspireinfrastructure.com>.
> From: Peter Donald [mailto:peter@realityforge.org]
>
> Hi,
>
> One of the problems that has plagued Avalon is the result of one-man
> codebases. I propose we remove almost all of these withing
> the next month.
> They can be moved to jakarta-commons, the incubator or to
> sourceforge as the
> developer wishes.
> Thoughts/Votes?
What codebases do you refer to?
Some of the codebases may go to sandbox instead of out of Avalon,
also.
/LS
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RE: [Proposal] Remove all/most one-man codebases
Posted by Leo Sutic <le...@inspireinfrastructure.com>.
> From: Peter Donald [mailto:peter@realityforge.org]
>
> Hi,
>
> One of the problems that has plagued Avalon is the result of one-man
> codebases. I propose we remove almost all of these withing
> the next month.
> They can be moved to jakarta-commons, the incubator or to
> sourceforge as the
> developer wishes.
> Thoughts/Votes?
What codebases do you refer to?
Some of the codebases may go to sandbox instead of out of Avalon,
also.
/LS
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Re: [Proposal] Remove all/most one-man codebases
Posted by Peter Royal <pr...@apache.org>.
On Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 07:06 AM, Peter Donald wrote:
> The stuff can come back later if it ever gets multiple people
> consistently
> maintining it but until then we can move it out.
>
> Thoughts/Votes?
I would also like the option of having codebases stay in our sandbox,
but that requiring a majority approval of the committers.
-pete
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RE: [Proposal] Remove all/most one-man codebases
Posted by Leo Sutic <le...@inspireinfrastructure.com>.
> From: Peter Donald [mailto:peter@realityforge.org]
>
> Hi,
>
> One of the problems that has plagued Avalon is the result of one-man
> codebases. I propose we remove almost all of these withing
> the next month.
> They can be moved to jakarta-commons, the incubator or to
> sourceforge as the
> developer wishes.
> Thoughts/Votes?
What codebases do you refer to?
Some of the codebases may go to sandbox instead of out of Avalon,
also.
/LS
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Re: [Proposal] Remove all/most one-man codebases
Posted by Rana Bhattacharyya <ra...@yahoo.com>.
Hi Bob,
I would really love to see this port. Unfortunately I
don't know C#. So I cannot comment on the complexity.
May be this time I should learn C#.
Thanks,
Rana
--- Bob Johnson <bo...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Rana,
>
> I am also interested in the Ftp Server. I just
> joined the list only a
> few days ago and i stumbled across the Ftp Server
> while looking around
> for an Open Source Ftp Server. I do have a question
> for you. Would you
> have any problem with a C# Port of your code for
> Mono/Linux &
> .Net/Windows? I have been experimenting with c# in
> both environments and
> would like to do a Java to C# Port.
>
> Paul Hammant wrote:
>
> > Rana,
> >
> > If it is any consolation, I am really interested
> in FtpServer dude.
> > Maybe it should move to incubator.apache.org, if
> it is not allowed to
> > stay here...
> >
> > Oh, and strictly speaking you are an Avalon
> Developer.
> >
> > - Paul H
> >
> >
> >> Hi,
> >> I am not an avalon developer. So this may not be
> the
> >> right mailing list. I apologies beforehand. If I
> >> understand the previous thousands mails
> correctly, I
> >> have no right to be a commiter. Besides that, it
> seems
> >> here all the developers are interested about
> avalon
> >> life-cycle, container etc. Nobody is really
> interested
> >> about the ftp server. So frankly speaking, I did
> not
> >> find any reason to take some CVS server
> disk-space.
> >>
> >> Another thing, here all the developers are
> talking
> >> about avalon philosophy (I don't know what is
> it), but
> >> not interested about testing it against an actual
> >> server. I can't understand how you guys test the
> >> container as a whole. May be you guys are really
> >> geniuses.
> >>
> >> If I remember correctly, at some point james
> >> developers were thinking about moving out from
> avalon.
> >>
> >>
> >> Anyway, most of the ftp server part is written
> by me
> >> with some exceptions. So may be we can remove it
> from
> >> the avalon project entirely. Unless somebody is
> really
> >> interested, it is difficult for me to find
> another
> >> developer. So in near future, it will remain one
> man
> >> code-base.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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> > <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >
> >
>
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Re: [Proposal] Remove all/most one-man codebases
Posted by Bob Johnson <bo...@comcast.net>.
Rana,
I am also interested in the Ftp Server. I just joined the list only a
few days ago and i stumbled across the Ftp Server while looking around
for an Open Source Ftp Server. I do have a question for you. Would you
have any problem with a C# Port of your code for Mono/Linux &
.Net/Windows? I have been experimenting with c# in both environments and
would like to do a Java to C# Port.
Paul Hammant wrote:
> Rana,
>
> If it is any consolation, I am really interested in FtpServer dude.
> Maybe it should move to incubator.apache.org, if it is not allowed to
> stay here...
>
> Oh, and strictly speaking you are an Avalon Developer.
>
> - Paul H
>
>
>> Hi,
>> I am not an avalon developer. So this may not be the
>> right mailing list. I apologies beforehand. If I
>> understand the previous thousands mails correctly, I
>> have no right to be a commiter. Besides that, it seems
>> here all the developers are interested about avalon
>> life-cycle, container etc. Nobody is really interested
>> about the ftp server. So frankly speaking, I did not
>> find any reason to take some CVS server disk-space.
>>
>> Another thing, here all the developers are talking
>> about avalon philosophy (I don't know what is it), but
>> not interested about testing it against an actual
>> server. I can't understand how you guys test the
>> container as a whole. May be you guys are really
>> geniuses.
>>
>> If I remember correctly, at some point james
>> developers were thinking about moving out from avalon.
>>
>>
>> Anyway, most of the ftp server part is written by me
>> with some exceptions. So may be we can remove it from
>> the avalon project entirely. Unless somebody is really
>> interested, it is difficult for me to find another
>> developer. So in near future, it will remain one man
>> code-base.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>
>
>
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Re: [Proposal] Remove all/most one-man codebases
Posted by Paul Hammant <Pa...@yahoo.com>.
Rana,
If it is any consolation, I am really interested in FtpServer dude.
Maybe it should move to incubator.apache.org, if it is not allowed to
stay here...
Oh, and strictly speaking you are an Avalon Developer.
- Paul H
>Hi,
> I am not an avalon developer. So this may not be the
>right mailing list. I apologies beforehand. If I
>understand the previous thousands mails correctly, I
>have no right to be a commiter. Besides that, it seems
>here all the developers are interested about avalon
>life-cycle, container etc. Nobody is really interested
>about the ftp server. So frankly speaking, I did not
>find any reason to take some CVS server disk-space.
>
> Another thing, here all the developers are talking
>about avalon philosophy (I don't know what is it), but
>not interested about testing it against an actual
>server. I can't understand how you guys test the
>container as a whole. May be you guys are really
>geniuses.
>
> If I remember correctly, at some point james
>developers were thinking about moving out from avalon.
>
>
> Anyway, most of the ftp server part is written by me
>with some exceptions. So may be we can remove it from
>the avalon project entirely. Unless somebody is really
>interested, it is difficult for me to find another
>developer. So in near future, it will remain one man
>code-base.
>
>Thanks,
>
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Re: [Proposal] Remove all/most one-man codebases
Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 2002-12-05 at 05:49, Rana Bhattacharyya wrote:
> Hi,
> I am not an avalon developer. So this may not be the
> right mailing list. I apologies beforehand. If I
> understand the previous thousands mails correctly, I
> have no right to be a commiter. Besides that, it seems
> here all the developers are interested about avalon
> life-cycle, container etc. Nobody is really interested
> about the ftp server.
FWIW, I know a few people are interested in the code.
> Anyway, most of the ftp server part is written by me
> with some exceptions. So may be we can remove it from
> the avalon project entirely. Unless somebody is really
> interested, it is difficult for me to find another
> developer. So in near future, it will remain one man
> code-base.
note this thread wasn't really about FtpServer.
Nevertheless, FTPServer is cool and has potential, it just needs some
better exposure. Avalon might not be the best place at apache to gain
that exposure; some new projects are starting up atm specifically
directed at hosting stuff like FtpServer; when they are ready it might
be nice to move FtpServer there.
cheers!
- Leo
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Re: [Proposal] Remove all/most one-man codebases
Posted by Rana Bhattacharyya <ra...@yahoo.com>.
Hi,
I am not an avalon developer. So this may not be the
right mailing list. I apologies beforehand. If I
understand the previous thousands mails correctly, I
have no right to be a commiter. Besides that, it seems
here all the developers are interested about avalon
life-cycle, container etc. Nobody is really interested
about the ftp server. So frankly speaking, I did not
find any reason to take some CVS server disk-space.
Another thing, here all the developers are talking
about avalon philosophy (I don't know what is it), but
not interested about testing it against an actual
server. I can't understand how you guys test the
container as a whole. May be you guys are really
geniuses.
If I remember correctly, at some point james
developers were thinking about moving out from avalon.
Anyway, most of the ftp server part is written by me
with some exceptions. So may be we can remove it from
the avalon project entirely. Unless somebody is really
interested, it is difficult for me to find another
developer. So in near future, it will remain one man
code-base.
Thanks,
Rana
--- Peter Donald <pe...@realityforge.org> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> One of the problems that has plagued Avalon is the
> result of one-man
> codebases. I propose we remove almost all of these
> withing the next month.
> They can be moved to jakarta-commons, the incubator
> or to sourceforge as the
> developer wishes.
>
> However I would exclude a few things from this for
> practical reasons. These
> things being
> * tweety as it is a nice learning tool and could
> form part of our
> documentation rather than as a codebase.
> * xfc as it will hopefully be integrated into
> fortress soon and in many ways
> is an extension of that.
> * extension should stay until Assembly decouples
> from it or until a better
> migration path can be developed for it
>
> The stuff can come back later if it ever gets
> multiple people consistently
> maintining it but until then we can move it out.
>
> Thoughts/Votes?
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> Peter Donald
> ---------------------------------------------------
> "Wise men don't need advice. Fools don't take it."
> -Benjamin Franklin
> ---------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
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Re: [Proposal] Remove all/most one-man codebases
Posted by Peter Royal <pr...@apache.org>.
On Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 07:06 AM, Peter Donald wrote:
> The stuff can come back later if it ever gets multiple people
> consistently
> maintining it but until then we can move it out.
>
> Thoughts/Votes?
I would also like the option of having codebases stay in our sandbox,
but that requiring a majority approval of the committers.
-pete
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Re: [Proposal] Remove all/most one-man codebases
Posted by Peter Royal <pr...@apache.org>.
On Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 07:06 AM, Peter Donald wrote:
> The stuff can come back later if it ever gets multiple people
> consistently
> maintining it but until then we can move it out.
>
> Thoughts/Votes?
I would also like the option of having codebases stay in our sandbox,
but that requiring a majority approval of the committers.
-pete
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