Woody or JXForms? + hibernate or * ?

[Antonio Gallardo <ag...@agsoftware.dnsalias.com>]

Hi:

I want to try some of the new spectacular technologies sported in Cocoon :)
I also will play with persistent data. The idea is to create a simple
database application using postgres as storage of persistent data.

After checking all the docs. For forms: I cannot decide between JXForms
and Woody? Please I need an advise from the gurus in forms.

For the object-database mapping is suggested Hibernate.

I am still trying to find other ways similars to Hibernate since it looks
like Hibernate is not a favorite player because of his LGPL license. :(

I know there is a jakarta project related to database stuff. DBCP is just
a Database connection pool. but,

please note I dont want to start another war.

Best Regards,

Antonio Gallardo

RE: Woody or JXForms? + hibernate or * ?

[Reinhard Pötz <re...@gmx.net>]

From: Marc Portier

> 
> Reinhard Pötz wrote:
> > JXForms is very close to the XForms standard by the W3C. 
> The problem 
> > with this standard is that is was written for clients and not for 
> > servers.
> > 
> 
> I share this view...
> 
> > On the other hand Woody is IMO a server-side form framework 
> with the 
> > possiblity to reuse parts. The key is that Woody uses widgets and 
> > widgets needn't be fields. So you could write a calendar widget and 
> > reuse it everywhere.
> 
> that is the idea, but some way to go yet
> 
> > Currently Woody is missing a connection to your data models. Marc 
> > already wrote RT on this topic but I have to admit that I 
> haven't had 
> > the time to answer on them and IMO Woody needs the 
> *possiblity* (not a 
> > must)
> > 
> 
> yep, that is my believe to
> 
> woody is already used by (some courageous) people that just 
> programmatically interact with the widgets (set/getValue on them) 
> directly, this is a use case that should be sustained at all 
> times IMHO
> 
> the idea I had, and wanted to discuss about is making sure that 
> we can off-load (and make declarative) this programmatic 
> interaction to what I dubbed a 'Binding Manager'
> 
> what it boils down to is (like the form-manager in woody) a 
> factory for 'Binding' objects... these objects:
> - are instantiated by the factory based on a declarative XML file
> - have two public methods loadFormFromModel(form, model) and 
> saveFormToModel(form, model)
> 
> given the limited interaction in the list 

Expect more after 2.1 is released! Then we should find a path from

  JXForms -------\
                  \             Cocoon
                  /         Form Framework
  Woody   -------/

> about this I have just 
> been playing some more with the idea and have a JXPath based 
> implementation on my HD: I'm cleaning it up as we speak to be in 
> a postable format on bugzilla... (which will include a sample for 
> editing an XML file, given the JXPath implementation though it 
> should be fairly easy to use it for hibernate produced javabeans 
> as well)

Yes, IMO JXPath support for the data model is a must

> 
> I promised this before, but it looks like I should be able to get 
> it out today (sorry for the implied suspense :-))
> (in fact: bruno just looks to this over my shoulder and starts 
> laughing: "Marc is making guestimates again"   DUH!)
> 
> 
> > to plug-in a global data dictionary (greetings from SAP ;-)
> > 
> 
> don't know SAP, however your remark makes me think about all sort 
> of things (not uncommon for me)
> 
> however in this case I'ld rather have you explain more closely 
> what you envision...

Expect more in August (after my holidays)

> 
> > As you can see the frameworks are different and designed with 
> > different goals. I'm not sure how those can be combined but I'm 
> > expecting Sylvains RTs 
> > (http://www.anyware-tech.com/blogs/sylvain/archives/000060.html)
> me too, it is not the first time Sylvain mentioned this


As Antonio pointed out sometime in the future there may exist clients
that support XForms natively and we shouldn't forget this ..
 
> wishing him the rest of mind the Alps could give him to pull this 
> off :-)

me too ;-)

Reinhard
 

Re: Woody or JXForms? + hibernate or * ?

[Marc Portier <mp...@outerthought.org>]

Reinhard Pötz wrote:
> JXForms is very close to the XForms standard by the W3C. The problem
> with this standard is that is was written for clients and not for
> servers.
> 

I share this view...

> On the other hand Woody is IMO a server-side form framework
> with the possiblity to reuse parts. The key is that Woody uses
> widgets and widgets needn't be fields. So you could write a calendar
> widget and reuse it everywhere.

that is the idea, but some way to go yet

> Currently Woody is missing a connection to your data models. Marc
> already
> wrote RT on this topic but I have to admit that I haven't had the 
> time to answer on them and IMO Woody needs the *possiblity* (not a must)
> 

yep, that is my believe to

woody is already used by (some courageous) people that just 
programmatically interact with the widgets (set/getValue on them) 
directly, this is a use case that should be sustained at all 
times IMHO

the idea I had, and wanted to discuss about is making sure that 
we can off-load (and make declarative) this programmatic 
interaction to what I dubbed a 'Binding Manager'

what it boils down to is (like the form-manager in woody) a 
factory for 'Binding' objects... these objects:
- are instantiated by the factory based on a declarative XML file
- have two public methods loadFormFromModel(form, model) and 
saveFormToModel(form, model)

given the limited interaction in the list about this I have just 
been playing some more with the idea and have a JXPath based 
implementation on my HD: I'm cleaning it up as we speak to be in 
a postable format on bugzilla... (which will include a sample for 
editing an XML file, given the JXPath implementation though it 
should be fairly easy to use it for hibernate produced javabeans 
as well)

I promised this before, but it looks like I should be able to get 
it out today (sorry for the implied suspense :-))
(in fact: bruno just looks to this over my shoulder and starts 
laughing: "Marc is making guestimates again"   DUH!)


> to plug-in a global data dictionary (greetings from SAP ;-)
> 

don't know SAP, however your remark makes me think about all sort 
of things (not uncommon for me)

however in this case I'ld rather have you explain more closely 
what you envision...

> As you can see the frameworks are different and designed with different
> goals. I'm not sure how those can be combined but I'm expecting Sylvains
> RTs (http://www.anyware-tech.com/blogs/sylvain/archives/000060.html) 

me too, it is not the first time Sylvain mentioned this

wishing him the rest of mind the Alps could give him to pull this 
off :-)

> on it.
> 
> Cheers,
> Reinhard 
> 

regards,
-marc=
-- 
Marc Portier                            http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at              http://radio.weblogs.com/0116284/
mpo@outerthought.org                              mpo@apache.org

RE: Woody or JXForms? + hibernate or * ?

[Reinhard Pötz <re...@gmx.net>]

From: Antonio Gallardo

> Hi:
> 
> I want to try some of the new spectacular technologies 
> sported in Cocoon :) I also will play with persistent data. 
> The idea is to create a simple database application using 
> postgres as storage of persistent data.
> 
> After checking all the docs. For forms: I cannot decide 
> between JXForms and Woody? Please I need an advise from the 
> gurus in forms.
> 
> For the object-database mapping is suggested Hibernate.
> 
> I am still trying to find other ways similars to Hibernate 
> since it looks like Hibernate is not a favorite player 
> because of his LGPL license. :(
> 
> I know there is a jakarta project related to database stuff. 
> DBCP is just a Database connection pool. but,

If you want to set up a Cocoon example you may have a look at
http://db.apache.org/ojb/

> please note I dont want to start another war.


I didn't want to start the discussion about the Cocoon Form framework
until Cocoon 2.1 is released but I couldn't resist to answer on you
mail ;-)

JXForms is very close to the XForms standard by the W3C. The problem
with this standard is that is was written for clients and not for
servers.

On the other hand Woody is IMO a server-side form framework
with the possiblity to reuse parts. The key is that Woody uses
widgets and widgets needn't be fields. So you could write a calendar
widget and reuse it everywhere.
Currently Woody is missing a connection to your data models. Marc
already
wrote RT on this topic but I have to admit that I haven't had the 
time to answer on them and IMO Woody needs the *possiblity* (not a must)

to plug-in a global data dictionary (greetings from SAP ;-)

As you can see the frameworks are different and designed with different
goals. I'm not sure how those can be combined but I'm expecting Sylvains
RTs (http://www.anyware-tech.com/blogs/sylvain/archives/000060.html) 
on it.

Cheers,
Reinhard 

Re: Woody or JXForms? + hibernate or * ?

[Stephan Michels <st...@apache.org>]

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003, Jeremy Quinn wrote:

>
> On Tuesday, July 15, 2003, at 09:53 PM, Antonio Gallardo wrote:
>
> > After checking all the docs. For forms: I cannot decide between JXForms
> > and Woody? Please I need an advise from the gurus in forms.
>
> I have not tried Woody (Sorry Bruno).
>
> I did however decide quite early on to use JXTemplate rather than
> JXForm as I found I was constantly having to work around stuff in
> JXForm that did not suit my approach.
>
> JXForm is particularly good at the multi-page wizard-type scenario, if
> your needs are different, you may find it too restrictive. This is not
> a criticism though!!!

I also prefer the more common way of JXTemplate.

> > I am still trying to find other ways similars to Hibernate since it
> > looks
> > like Hibernate is not a favorite player because of his LGPL license. :(
>
> Yea, I know, it is a shame, but we do have a workaround now, in terms
> of the independant project repository at cocoondev.org, which could
> legitimately be used for blocks that contain LGPL code.
>
> > I know there is a jakarta project related to database stuff. DBCP is
> > just
> > a Database connection pool. but,
>
> I went straight for Hibernate and did not even investigate the Apache
> stuff I am afraid. I just took the word of some peers who said,
> Hibernate is cool and easy.

I wondering why everyone prefer Hibernate. I use Castors JDO-like
implementation a lot, and I love it. You also have the benefit that
you can serialize the object to XML. And has a BSD-like license,
which is compatible with the Apache license, I think.

I wrote InputModules to make the access easier, and map them to
JXPath functions. Using a mixture of the JXTemplate- and
JPathTransformer, I can use Castor like this

cocoon.xconf:
    <component-instance class="modules.JDOInputModule" name="article"
       query="SELECT article FROM model.Article article WHERE article.id=$$"
       database="cocoon"/>
    <component-instance class="modules.JDOInputModule" name="articles"
       query="SELECT article FROM model.Article article"
       database="cocoon"/>

xxx.xml:
<jx:variable name="article" select="getArticle(request/id)"/>
<jx:value-of select="$article/title"/>

<jx:for-each select="getArticles()">
 <jx:value-of select="title"/>
</jx:for-each>

<jx:copy-of select="$article/descriptor"/> <!-- produces XML data -->

Stephan Michels.

Re: Woody or JXForms? + hibernate or * ?

[Jeremy Quinn <je...@media.demon.co.uk>]

On Tuesday, July 15, 2003, at 09:53 PM, Antonio Gallardo wrote:

> Hi:
>
> I want to try some of the new spectacular technologies sported in 
> Cocoon :)
> I also will play with persistent data. The idea is to create a simple
> database application using postgres as storage of persistent data.
>
> After checking all the docs. For forms: I cannot decide between JXForms
> and Woody? Please I need an advise from the gurus in forms.

I have not tried Woody (Sorry Bruno).

I did however decide quite early on to use JXTemplate rather than 
JXForm as I found I was constantly having to work around stuff in 
JXForm that did not suit my approach.

JXForm is particularly good at the multi-page wizard-type scenario, if 
your needs are different, you may find it too restrictive. This is not 
a criticism though!!!


> For the object-database mapping is suggested Hibernate.
>
> I am still trying to find other ways similars to Hibernate since it 
> looks
> like Hibernate is not a favorite player because of his LGPL license. :(

Yea, I know, it is a shame, but we do have a workaround now, in terms 
of the independant project repository at cocoondev.org, which could 
legitimately be used for blocks that contain LGPL code.

> I know there is a jakarta project related to database stuff. DBCP is 
> just
> a Database connection pool. but,

I went straight for Hibernate and did not even investigate the Apache 
stuff I am afraid. I just took the word of some peers who said, 
Hibernate is cool and easy.

regards Jeremy