Re: Publishing stylebook...: need to have reproduceable builds!

[Shane Curcuru/CAM/Lotus <Sh...@lotus.com>]

I strongly agree with Andy here.  Stylebook is a tool that various
xml-apache projects use to build documentation in daily development use and
in various releases.  We definitely need to have easily accessible copies
of previous working versions of this tool so both committer teams and any
user can easily run builds.

Although I appreciate the work going into Cocoon and the newer versions,
and definitely want to use them when their ready, in the meantime we need
the older versions to get day-to-day work done.  While these are all
projects in 'development', we can't always afford to use the
'in-development' version of our own tools.

So I vote... um, I've forgotten which way the vote was called?  Voting +1
for keeping stable versions of Stylebook around for daily use.

---- Andy Clark <an...@apache.org> wrote: ----
> This is not a support issue -- it's a reproducability
> issue. We must be able to reproduce previous builds.

----    ----
- Shane         Automation, Test, & Build guy
mailto:shane_curcuru@lotus.com    AIM:xsltest
  http://alphaworks.ibm.com/tech/LotusXSL
  http://xml.apache.org/xalan

Re: Publishing stylebook...: need to have reproduceable builds!

[Pierpaolo Fumagalli <pi...@apache.org>]

Andy Clark wrote:
> 
> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> > I'm voting -1 on making Stylebook a full blown project under
> > xml.apache.org + creating a mail list + creating docs for users +
> > having questions on it and so on.
> 
> We're not talking about making StyleBook a project. We're
> just making it possible for users to build the documentation.
> Users should be able to reproduce our builds and they need
> StyleBook in order to do that -- it's nothing more than a
> build tool. And they should not be required to access CVS
> in order to do a build.

We talked about that a lot in private and (I believe) on the PMC list...
I'm switching to a +0 for the "let's reproduce the builds" issue, I
still keep a veto on making StyleBook a full big project :) :) :)
So, let me publish the tool... (BTW, after the latest changes I'd say we
can get a 1.0 release label on it!)...

	Pier

-- 
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-          P              I              E              R          -
stable structure erected over water to allow the docking of seacraft
<ma...@betaversion.org>    <http://www.betaversion.org/~pier/>
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Re: Publishing stylebook...: need to have reproduceable builds!

[Andy Clark <an...@apache.org>]

Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> I'm voting -1 on making Stylebook a full blown project under
> xml.apache.org + creating a mail list + creating docs for users + 
> having questions on it and so on.

We're not talking about making StyleBook a project. We're
just making it possible for users to build the documentation.
Users should be able to reproduce our builds and they need
StyleBook in order to do that -- it's nothing more than a
build tool. And they should not be required to access CVS
in order to do a build.
 
-- 
Andy Clark * IBM, JTC - Silicon Valley * andyc@apache.org

Re: Publishing stylebook...: need to have reproduceable builds!

[Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>]

Shane Curcuru/CAM/Lotus wrote:
> 
> I strongly agree with Andy here.  Stylebook is a tool that various
> xml-apache projects use to build documentation in daily development use and
> in various releases.  We definitely need to have easily accessible copies
> of previous working versions of this tool so both committer teams and any
> user can easily run builds.
> 
> Although I appreciate the work going into Cocoon and the newer versions,
> and definitely want to use them when their ready, in the meantime we need
> the older versions to get day-to-day work done.  While these are all
> projects in 'development', we can't always afford to use the
> 'in-development' version of our own tools.
> 
> So I vote... um, I've forgotten which way the vote was called?  Voting +1
> for keeping stable versions of Stylebook around for daily use.

Never said the opposite.

I'm voting -1 on making Stylebook a full blown project under
xml.apache.org + creating a mail list + creating docs for users + having
questions on it and so on.

Why?

1) stylebook is used internally and Pier and I were the only two people
in the world who wrote a stylebook skin. Why? it's a total nightmare!! I
don't want people to mess with that since it's totally and utterly
wrong!!!

2) stylebook is DOM based: a nightmare when you do big sites.

3) we will make it so easy for you to use Cocoon 2 instead that you'll
not even notice it.

So, I vote to stay as we are:

if you need Stylebook, grab it from xml-stylebook where you also find a
precompiled jar.

Open and easy enough.

Trust me, by hiding stylebook a little we are doing everybody a favor.
It's a powerful tool, but not something that we should support or make
it easier for the users to use.

No, I didn't vote to remove it or destroying it or anything like this: I
just say no to making it easier for users to get it. Why? because
otherwise, the amount of energy wasted to answer user questions will be
more than the energy required to come up with a better tool that doesn't
trigger those questions.

So, I'm remaining -1

-- 
Stefano Mazzocchi      One must still have chaos in oneself to be
                          able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org>                             Friedrich Nietzsche
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