Re: You guys are so funny.

[Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>]

Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> on 5/2/02 8:44 AM, "costinm@covalent.net" <co...@covalent.net> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Same here, I'll -1 a switch to either maven or centipede on the projects I
>>have a vote on until they find a way to work togheter.
>>
>>DVSL may be a nice language, but XSLT is the standard - regardless of how
>>you play with the word. I'm fine with a tool that supports both.
>>
>>Costin
> 
> 
> You guys are so funny.
> 
> Bike Sheds
> ----------
> 
> At first, people -1'd the use of Anakia to generate the Jakarta website. But
> then when I took the effort to make it simple and easy to use and took away
> the bike shed argument, people adopted it and used it all over the world.
> 
> On top of it, in *years*, no one has gone and replaced Jakarta-site2 with
> anything better. Sure, Craig did a XSLT stylesheet, but no one changed the
> main Jakarta site to use it and I still see new Anakia sites on
> Sourceforget.net all the time.
> 
> The next thing to replace jakarta-site2 will be Maven. Just like with
> Anakia, I honestly don't care if you -1 it. You aren't doing the work and
> therefore your argument against it is simply a bike shed and is thus not
> valid in my opinion.
> 
> Costin, just like with Tomcat 3 vs. Tomcat 4. We all learned that you can't
> force projects to work together. Nor can you vote -1 on it. Given our
> history, I'm really surprised to hear you trying to argue for something like
> that. You hypocrite.


Finally.  Jon, I knew you could do it.  You wrote your first intelligent
post in this whole thread!

;P

There are things to like with both projects.  However you do ignore some
things that are important.  GUMP integration is important--I like the
fact that Centipede works out of the box with it.  I honestly don't like
the Maven look--but the feel is ok.  The problem is that Maven does not
make it easy to change either the look or the feel.  It takes more
effort than should be required for a _build_ tool.  The types of docs
that it generates are fantastic.  They are very useful.

I personally lean toward Centipede because it uses more of *my* pet
projects :)  And there lies the rub.  I personally would like to see
where some projects use Maven and some use Centipede.  Either way,
I want them to be compatible with GUMP.

> 
> Learning Technology
> -------------------
> 
> The argument about learning minor technologies to make money is so silly it
> is funny. I have owned/started several companies now and have been
> responsible for hiring or directly approving the hiring of about 50-60
> people over the last 10 years. Not a huge amount, but not small either.
> 
> Never once did I think to myself, hmmm...that person knows minor technology
> X better than minor technology Y. What I cared the most about was that the
> person had a general good skill set and the aptitude to learn something new.
> So, if learning DVSL vs. XSLT is beyond your aptitude, I probably would not
> have hired you anyway.
> 

And who said it was beyond our aptitude.  All anybody said is that it
was beyond our desire.  If we have a tool that works for us, and it
garners more and more _tool_ support--we will use it.  It's what makes
for the project.  Yes money is not the key motivator, and anyone who
thinks it is should be shot, but if we need to find a new employer--
we will have a better time if we know XSLT as opposed to DVSL.

So sometimes decisions to use a product or project is completely out
of your control.  Nevertheless, I maintain that I can wrap my head
around anything in under two weeks (two weeks being for very complex
projects).  That's if I need to.  I personally balance involvement
in four projects (2 on XML.apache and 2 on Jakarta), a personal
life, a professional life, and hobbies.  The less I have to learn
for a build the better.  If I need to update the look and feel of
a site to brand a project for my own purposes--I don't want to waste
two weeks figuring it out.  I want to use what I already know so
I can just do it.

Its as simple and pragmatic as that.

> On top of it, the mentality of having to fit into the box because everyone
> else is doing it would make me instantly not like your personality. I like
> people who are free thinkers and who can think outside of the box. Software
> is an art form, not something that you can just cookie cutter produce (and
> have it come out being any good). IMHO, it is the free thinkers that have
> the most creative and bug free code. Thinking outside of the box shows that
> you care about the code and systems you are creating.
> 

And yet, you insist that all free thinkers think like you.  Not all free
thinkers fit in your box (sometimes it is a little confining ;P ).

> People
> ------
> 
> Needless to say, the attitudes here are becoming more and more familiar.
> Andrew reminds me of the early days of dealing with Peter Donald (credit to
> Peter for eventually coming to his senses...I think joining the PMC helped).
> Steven reminds me of Paulo. Deja vu!
> 

I personally like Peter, don't you?  You guys can be alike in some ways,
which is probably why you had a hard time with him.


-- 

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
  deserve neither liberty nor safety."
                 - Benjamin Franklin


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Re: You guys are so funny.

["Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>]

If you hate ME to messages scroll to the end where there is one minor 
point or just register a "me too" and move on... ;-)

>
>
> Finally.  Jon, I knew you could do it.  You wrote your first intelligent
> post in this whole thread! 


:-D

>
> ;P
>
> There are things to like with both projects.  However you do ignore some
> things that are important.  GUMP integration is important--I like the
> fact that Centipede works out of the box with it.  I honestly don't like
> the Maven look--but the feel is ok.  The problem is that Maven does not
> make it easy to change either the look or the feel.  It takes more
> effort than should be required for a _build_ tool.  The types of docs
> that it generates are fantastic.  They are very useful.

>
> I personally lean toward Centipede because it uses more of *my* pet
> projects :)  And there lies the rub.  I personally would like to see
> where some projects use Maven and some use Centipede.  Either way,
> I want them to be compatible with GUMP.

start singing "wouldn't it be nice to work together..."

>
> And who said it was beyond our aptitude.  All anybody said is that it
> was beyond our desire.  If we have a tool that works for us, and it
> garners more and more _tool_ support--we will use it.  It's what makes
> for the project.  Yes money is not the key motivator, and anyone who
> thinks it is should be shot, but if we need to find a new employer--
> we will have a better time if we know XSLT as opposed to DVSL.
>
> So sometimes decisions to use a product or project is completely out
> of your control.  Nevertheless, I maintain that I can wrap my head
> around anything in under two weeks (two weeks being for very complex
> projects).  That's if I need to.  I personally balance involvement
> in four projects (2 on XML.apache and 2 on Jakarta), a personal
> life, a professional life, and hobbies.  The less I have to learn
> for a build the better.  If I need to update the look and feel of
> a site to brand a project for my own purposes--I don't want to waste
> two weeks figuring it out.  I want to use what I already know so
> I can just do it.
>
> Its as simple and pragmatic as that.

+1 - complete agreement.

>
> And yet, you insist that all free thinkers think like you.  Not all free
> thinkers fit in your box (sometimes it is a little confining ;P ).

+1

>
>
> I personally like Peter, don't you?  You guys can be alike in some ways,
> which is probably why you had a hard time with him.
>
I like everyone...even jon.  I'm sure I'm not his favorite person...but 
I find him amusing most of the time.




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Re: You guys are so funny.

[lloyd <su...@twilight-systems.com>]

> > You guys are so funny.

My name is Hammer.  I like to rave!





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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Kurt Schrader <ks...@engin.umich.edu>]

On Thu, 2 May 2002, Berin Loritsch wrote:

> WIth certain limitations.  Where is the Nag entries, etc.?

The nag entries are there now, after it was pointed out yesterday that
they weren't being added.  I'm not sure what "etc" needs to be added to
the descriptor besides that, but I'm sure that we can work it out if it's
needed.

> It's getting better, but the fact remains that the gump descriptor is
> generated--not extended.

That fact does remain...

-Kurt


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>]

Kurt Schrader wrote:
> On Thu, 2 May 2002, Berin Loritsch wrote:
> 
> 
>>There are things to like with both projects.  However you do ignore some
>>things that are important.  GUMP integration is important--I like the
>>fact that Centipede works out of the box with it.
> 
> 
> Just to clear this up, "ant maven:gump-descriptor" will generate a Gump
> project descriptor for a Mavenized project.

WIth certain limitations.  Where is the Nag entries, etc.?

It's getting better, but the fact remains that the gump descriptor is
generated--not extended.


-- 

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
  deserve neither liberty nor safety."
                 - Benjamin Franklin


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Kurt Schrader <ks...@engin.umich.edu>]

On Thu, 2 May 2002, Berin Loritsch wrote:

> There are things to like with both projects.  However you do ignore some
> things that are important.  GUMP integration is important--I like the
> fact that Centipede works out of the box with it.

Just to clear this up, "ant maven:gump-descriptor" will generate a Gump
project descriptor for a Mavenized project.

-Kurt


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