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Posted to dev@avalon.apache.org by dv...@phpapp.org on 2003/02/18 15:28:54 UTC
Assembly and meta stuff released ??
Hello,
I'm an Avalon new-commer. I do want my app container-independant. Sor i'm
designing some lightweight lifecycle/lifestyle helper components for my
container components. In order to implement them well, here are some few questions:
* I would like to know the current status of the assembly and meta stuff that is
in the avalon sandbox ?? I can see this is refactoring from work comming from
the various home container. When do you plan to release it in the framework ?
Does Phoenix, Fortress and Merlin plan to rebase their source code on it and when ?
* I can't find a clear recent road map for the whole Avalon project on the web
site. I know you are in the process to move to avalon.apache.org but maybe i did
not search enough. Do you have one ? What are the priorities ?
* When will the Component stuff be depracated ??? This seems to be a long while
this code is deprecated... The first time i looked for documentation, i began to
implement a Composable component. Is there a documentation update process
started ? Who can i join on this if i want to help ? What needs first to be
updated ???
Just a note in comment to an exchange on the list about Avalon on servlet or
servlets on Avalon. I do agree the best way would be servlets on Avalon but the
fact is there a need in the first solution. The reason : we can rarely change a
hoster's software choices.
Thanks for your help. A+. Didier.
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Re: Assembly and meta stuff released ??
Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
Berin Loritsch wrote:
>> * I can't find a clear recent road map for the whole Avalon project on
>> the web
>> site. I know you are in the process to move to avalon.apache.org but
>> maybe i did
>> not search enough. Do you have one ? What are the priorities ?
>
>
> We have one, but we have not put up the document yet.
http://avalon.apache.org/project/roadmap.html
cheers,
- Leo
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Re: Assembly and meta stuff released ??
Posted by Peter Donald <pe...@realityforge.org>.
On Wed, 19 Feb 2003 02:49, dvillevalois@phpapp.org wrote:
> > Short answer: when it is done.
> > Longer answer: We have other things in the queue that we have to take
> > care of first--and then we can focus as a community on those libraries.
>
> As i understood, assembly and meta will come as the basis of Phoenix,
> Fortress and Merlin assemblies ???
seems unlikely to me.
--
Cheers,
Peter Donald
*-------------------------------------------------*
| An eye for eye only ends up making the whole |
| world blind. - Gandhi |
*-------------------------------------------------*
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Re: Assembly and meta stuff released ??
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
dvillevalois@phpapp.org wrote:
> (Berin, i just want to help !!! I like the Avalon stuff and am not here to fight!)
Neither am I, I'm sorry if you took it that way.
>
>
>>Short answer: when it is done.
>>Longer answer: We have other things in the queue that we have to take
>>care of first--and then we can focus as a community on those libraries.
>
>
> As i understood, assembly and meta will come as the basis of Phoenix, Fortress
> and Merlin assemblies ??? In something like a six month time frame. Am i wrong ?
> So, what is still to be done ?
Assembly and Meta are still largely contributed by one "super
developer", who is also working on Merlin. Before the community
can get behind a release, they have to get behind his code. That
hasn't happened yet, but we do have a plan to get there.
We want to get everything necessary for Fortress and Cocoon released
so that any users can upgrade. From there we will look at the Merlin
stuff and see how close it is to a release. We really can't say until
we look at it as a whole community how long it will take.
>
> I think i will base my devs on this as i don't want to be container-dependant.
> So i would like to know what parts have stable design and stable implementations
> ?? Which are to be leveraged and validated ??
A5 will have a better level of container independence. If you follow
the container release path, you can gradually gain container
independence while getting real functionality now.
RIght now, we are focusing on #1 ECM, #2 Fortress, #3 Phoenix (it is
already a released product we are still supporting it for the forseeable
future), #4 Merlin, #5 A5 container.
We can get Fortress and ECM out in short order--we just need to get
the supporting components ready as well. It is time consuming, but
worthwhile.
>
>
>>>* I can't find a clear recent road map for the whole Avalon project on
>>
>>the web
>>
>>>site. I know you are in the process to move to avalon.apache.org but
>>
>>maybe i did
>>
>>>not search enough. Do you have one ? What are the priorities ?
>>
>>We have one, but we have not put up the document yet.
>
>
> Could you send it to me please ??
Step one: Release everything that is already released.
Step two: Release Fortress as Avalon Container (embedded level)
Step three: focus on Merlin as the next Avalon Container (embedded
level).
Step three will take some time as it the rest of us will undoubtedly
have some input and change some of the internal structure of it.
Nothing too drastic, but just make it a little easier to digest.
>>
>>It already is deprecated. All the rest of our documentation needs to
>>be
>>updated. Hopefully, this is done and we can get Avalon 4.1.4 released.
>
>
> Great! The version i got by CVS don't show this ? Is there a place in the CVS
> where the framework is complete (apart assembly and meta) ? I could help a lot
> on documentation as a start...
It's in there (the Prego commercials).
The Component package is "soft" deprecated, so its use is still
discouraged while trying to move our users off of the legacy code.
It isn't as easy as it looks as several projects have many many
users and several books that describe how to use it for their
own projects (thinking of Cocoon specifically here).
>
> Question by the way: org.apache.avalon.excalibur.* is old design and
> org.apache.excalibur.* is the new, right ??
Not really a design, just a new package name idiom.
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Re: Assembly and meta stuff released ??
Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
dvillevalois@phpapp.org wrote:
>>>I could help a lot on documentation as a start...
>
> Last question : Do you know a diff for windows that has the same output as diff ??
hope it's not the last one...questions are good! :D
You can make diffs using cvs. Try the command 'cvs -H diff' for more
information. I always recommend installing cygwin
(http://www.cygwin.com/); it gets you a full suite of tools like diff
and bash.
cheers,
- Leo
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Re: Assembly and meta stuff released ??
Posted by dv...@phpapp.org.
> It has not been determined at all how much of
> this code will come from the current merlin and assembly dirs in
> sandbox. I'm kinda wondering here how all you guys got this idea...?
Digging in all the containers, you can quickly see common concepts and
mechanisms... This makes obvious to me that the goal there was to converge.
> your question is unclear...what do you mean by framework? We always
> distinguish avalon-framework (the stuff in the "avalon" cvs module) from
> everything else. Avalon-framework is complete, and its component package
> has been deprecated for a year or so (ever since 4.1 I think).
Okay, i'll dig it better.
> > I could help a lot on documentation as a start...
Last question : Do you know a diff for windows that has the same output as diff ??
Thanks. A+. Didier Villevalois.
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Re: Assembly and meta stuff released ??
Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
dvillevalois@phpapp.org wrote:
> As i understood, assembly and meta will come as the basis of Phoenix, Fortress
> and Merlin assemblies ???
all that is undecided. We have decided that we would like a common
container which satisfies the use case of all of the above (and ECM), in
a single unified codebase. It has not been determined at all how much of
this code will come from the current merlin and assembly dirs in
sandbox. I'm kinda wondering here how all you guys got this idea...?
> In something like a six month time frame.
timeframes are always icky. Depends on who does the work :D
> Am i wrong ?
yep ;)
> So, what is still to be done ?
basically the stuff on the roadmap. Try the avalon-users archive for a
list of things you could pick up :D
> I think i will base my devs on this as i don't want to be container-dependant.
> So i would like to know what parts have stable design and stable implementations
> ?? Which are to be leveraged and validated ??
phoenix and ECM are stable. Fortress is mostly, codewise, and will see a
release soon.
> Could you send it to me please ??
http://avalon.apache.org/project/roadmap.html
> Great! The version i got by CVS don't show this ? Is there a place in the CVS
> where the framework is complete (apart assembly and meta) ?
your question is unclear...what do you mean by framework? We always
distinguish avalon-framework (the stuff in the "avalon" cvs module) from
everything else. Avalon-framework is complete, and its component package
has been deprecated for a year or so (ever since 4.1 I think).
> I could help a lot
> on documentation as a start...
that'd be great! The thing that needs most work is the Developing with
Avalon paper, which is in the avalon-site module. Some pointers:
http://avalon.apache.org/project/patches.html
> Question by the way: org.apache.avalon.excalibur.* is old design and
> org.apache.excalibur.* is the new, right ??
yep.
cheers,
- Leo
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Re: Assembly and meta stuff released ??
Posted by dv...@phpapp.org.
(Berin, i just want to help !!! I like the Avalon stuff and am not here to fight!)
> Short answer: when it is done.
> Longer answer: We have other things in the queue that we have to take
> care of first--and then we can focus as a community on those libraries.
As i understood, assembly and meta will come as the basis of Phoenix, Fortress
and Merlin assemblies ??? In something like a six month time frame. Am i wrong ?
So, what is still to be done ?
I think i will base my devs on this as i don't want to be container-dependant.
So i would like to know what parts have stable design and stable implementations
?? Which are to be leveraged and validated ??
> > * I can't find a clear recent road map for the whole Avalon project on
> the web
> > site. I know you are in the process to move to avalon.apache.org but
> maybe i did
> > not search enough. Do you have one ? What are the priorities ?
>
> We have one, but we have not put up the document yet.
Could you send it to me please ??
> > * When will the Component stuff be depracated ??? This seems to be a
> long while
> > this code is deprecated... The first time i looked for documentation,
> i began to
> > implement a Composable component. Is there a documentation update
> process
> > started ? Who can i join on this if i want to help ? What needs first
> to be
> > updated ???
>
> It already is deprecated. All the rest of our documentation needs to
> be
> updated. Hopefully, this is done and we can get Avalon 4.1.4 released.
Great! The version i got by CVS don't show this ? Is there a place in the CVS
where the framework is complete (apart assembly and meta) ? I could help a lot
on documentation as a start...
Question by the way: org.apache.avalon.excalibur.* is old design and
org.apache.excalibur.* is the new, right ??
> Avalon is used within servlet environments all the time. In fact one
> of
> our more famous users is the Apache Cocoon project--which lives
> completely in the servlet space.
I did know for Cocoon :). But forget it, i will make my Context impl and it
won't be a great deal to run it on top of my servlet.
Thanks. Didier Villevalois.
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Re: Assembly and meta stuff released ??
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
dvillevalois@phpapp.org wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I'm an Avalon new-commer. I do want my app container-independant. Sor i'm
> designing some lightweight lifecycle/lifestyle helper components for my
> container components. In order to implement them well, here are some few questions:
>
> * I would like to know the current status of the assembly and meta stuff that is
> in the avalon sandbox ?? I can see this is refactoring from work comming from
> the various home container. When do you plan to release it in the framework ?
> Does Phoenix, Fortress and Merlin plan to rebase their source code on it and when ?
Short answer: when it is done.
Longer answer: We have other things in the queue that we have to take
care of first--and then we can focus as a community on those libraries.
> * I can't find a clear recent road map for the whole Avalon project on the web
> site. I know you are in the process to move to avalon.apache.org but maybe i did
> not search enough. Do you have one ? What are the priorities ?
We have one, but we have not put up the document yet.
> * When will the Component stuff be depracated ??? This seems to be a long while
> this code is deprecated... The first time i looked for documentation, i began to
> implement a Composable component. Is there a documentation update process
> started ? Who can i join on this if i want to help ? What needs first to be
> updated ???
It already is deprecated. All the rest of our documentation needs to be
updated. Hopefully, this is done and we can get Avalon 4.1.4 released.
>
> Just a note in comment to an exchange on the list about Avalon on servlet or
> servlets on Avalon. I do agree the best way would be servlets on Avalon but the
> fact is there a need in the first solution. The reason : we can rarely change a
> hoster's software choices.
>
> Thanks for your help. A+. Didier.
Avalon is used within servlet environments all the time. In fact one of
our more famous users is the Apache Cocoon project--which lives
completely in the servlet space.
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Re: Assembly and meta stuff released ??
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
dvillevalois@phpapp.org wrote:
>Hello,
>
>I'm an Avalon new-commer. I do want my app container-independant. Sor i'm
>designing some lightweight lifecycle/lifestyle helper components for my
>container components. In order to implement them well, here are some few questions:
>
>* I would like to know the current status of the assembly and meta stuff that is
>in the avalon sandbox ?? I can see this is refactoring from work comming from
>the various home container. When do you plan to release it in the framework ?
>Does Phoenix, Fortress and Merlin plan to rebase their source code on it and when ?
>
Meta - has been stable for a few months. Is used within the Assembly system
and the Merlin container. Is also used in the enterprise project
(avalon apps).
Documentation is not bad - still room for improvement (some changes from
about
three months ago are not reflected in the docs yet (mainly XML external
format
stuff). There are no supporting tools however I've started on a maven
POM that
will handle things like meta data generation, block packaging, verification,
etc. Some of the content needs to be tightened up - in particular the
object
model for introduction of specialized meta types is supported, but its
not as
clean as I would like. Secondly, I would like to see this package grow to
include the ability for one meta type to extend another (but that's somewhat
in the future).
When is largely a factor of participation. The more people get
involved, the
better the product will be, an the more community support, the faster the
integration process into the framework layer. If your interested in going
over documentation on Meta that would be really helpful - stuff like
validation
of what is written, checking consistency of XML descriptions, addition of
code examples into the javadoc, etc. (plus checking some of my English for
some of the those very occasional slightly overly complex descriptions).
Phoenix <--> Merlin is initially about achieving a common substrate - namely
a common meta model. That will take a process of lots of discussions and I
think we will see a lot of focus on enabling differences without breaking
component portability. The Merlin <--> Fortress relationship is much more
about isolation and integration of a ECM style component semantics into the
assembly framework. This could be achieved without too much difficulty
once people get engaged in the process and thare is a broader understanding
of the assembly package. Keep in mind that Assembly is still moving around
(not as much as Merlin) mainly in getting concepts and abstractions better
seperated and more consistent. My guess is that we will be looking at a
stable assembly package in couple of months following which it will be a
lot easier for people to get in deep.
>
>* I can't find a clear recent road map for the whole Avalon project on the web
>site. I know you are in the process to move to avalon.apache.org but maybe i did
>not search enough. Do you have one ? What are the priorities ?
>
What is reasonably safe to say is that there is convergence process
ahead of us.
The most promising (IMHO) is the notion of profiled containers. What I
envisage
is a core set of APIs that make up Avalon Facilities, Avalon Component
Model, and and
Avalon Application Framework. The facilities correspond loosely to
the utilities in Excalibur. The Component Model would cover the framework,
meta and containment API (something like assembly after all of the guys
have ripped
it apart and put it back together again). A variety of deployment
models (this is
where I believe we will see convergence/synergy with Fortress and
Merlin), and
other important container side abstractions such as packaging models
(e.g. like the
Phoenix sar model), better security tools - again leveraging the Phoenix
work, and
possibly the notion of blocks as proposed by Merlin at some time in the
future.
Given all of the above you have everything you need to literally
assembly your
container of choice without sacrificing portability. Its not really an
application - but instead I like to think of this as "an application
management
scenario". The solution is as light or as heavy as you want it to be.
>
>* When will the Component stuff be depricated ??? This seems to be a long while
>this code is deprecated... The first time i looked for documentation, i began to
>implement a Composable component. Is there a documentation update process
>started ? Who can i join on this if i want to help ? What needs first to be
>updated ???
>
>Just a note in comment to an exchange on the list about Avalon on servlet or
>servlets on Avalon. I do agree the best way would be servlets on Avalon but the
>fact is there a need in the first solution. The reason : we can rarely change a
>hoster's software choices.
>
I agree with all of the comments on this topic - being in control is
great but its
not always feasible or practical. We need good solutions for both.
Cheers, Steve.
>
>
>Thanks for your help. A+. Didier.
>
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>
>
>
>
>
--
Stephen J. McConnell
mailto:mcconnell@apache.org
http://www.osm.net
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