You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to dev@cocoon.apache.org by Matthew Langham <ml...@s-und-n.de> on 2005/11/30 08:43:35 UTC
Resource comparison between Cocoon and Struts/JSP??
Hi,
We have a customer looking to build an architecture around Open Source
frameworks. He has asked us about the differences in needed resources (CPU,
Memory) when writing an application using Cocoon as compared to a Struts/JSP
solution. While I realize the answer is probably "that depends", there are
certain customers who just aren't interested in that type of answer :-(. And
this customer actually has to pay internal charges depending on the amount
of memory and CPU needed.
So maybe someone out there has actually done this type of comparison or can
point me to something?
Thanks
Matthew Langham
--
S&N AG
Competence Center Open Source
Klingenderstr. 5
D 33100 Paderborn
voice +49 5251/1581-30
fax +49 5251/1581-71
eMail mlangham@s-und-n.de
Web http://www.s-und-n.de
RE: Resource comparison between Cocoon and Struts/JSP??
Posted by Matthew Langham <ml...@s-und-n.de>.
Thanks Irv!
Freundliche Grüße / With kind regards
Matthew Langham
--
S&N AG
Competence Center Open Source
Klingenderstr. 5
D 33100 Paderborn
voice +49 5251/1581-30
fax +49 5251/1581-71
eMail mlangham@s-und-n.de
Web http://www.s-und-n.de <http://www.s-und-n.de/>
_____
From: Irv Salisbury [mailto:irv.salisbury@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 5:06 AM
To: dev@cocoon.apache.org
Subject: Re: Resource comparison between Cocoon and Struts/JSP??
It is really difficult to compare a JSP/Struts solution with a cocoon
solution without knowing how many users, what types of things are taking
place (like Hibernate, SQLTransformer, etc) How much is Java, how much is
XML, etc. Do you have a lots of Javaflow? As we have seen on this list the
past few days, there are MANY ways to do the same thing in cocoon.
So, the best I can offer is our application we built and the resources we
need.
It is primarily an app made up of CForms that use JavaFlow with the XML
binding and our own modified SQLTransformer. (To add transactions and paging
all in one component) (We started with flowscript and found it didn't work
in the latest versions of Weblogic and Websphere, so beware!) We have about
175 CForms, a custom reporting engine built on cocoon, and about 250 total
pages. Lots of shared pipelines, aggregators, etc. It is a product, and
the whole thing is based on cocoon. http://www.dotech.com/realnet/
To have about 10 simultaneous users hitting the app, we have found server
settings of 256 (min) and 512 (max) seem to work just fine. The app does
perform better if we use 512 (min) 1GB (max).
Having been involved in apps using other technologies, I would imagine a
more "pure Java" solution like JSP/Struts probably would require less
memory.
However, the speed does rock in the app. We have gotten comments on how
well things perform. As another comparison, our custom reporting engine is
mostly XSL code and does perform better than the eclipse reports and similar
to jasper reports on our report needs.
I don't know how to quantify the CPU usage for you. When the app is busy,
the cpu is usually pretty pegged. (At least it is using the CPU)
Sorry, that is the best I can offer. I have not seen any major performance
problems with cocoon, but have seen the memory usage a little higher. Also,
keep in mind that if you are doing a lot of XML, I have seen major
differences in performance based on how well you write XSL. Often, keeping
performance in mind when writing XSL can make a 10x difference on large XML
sets. (And if you write a lot of cocoon apps you WILL have large XML sets
:-) The profiler can be your friend here when trying to track down where
your app is taking the time.
Irv
On 12/4/05, David Crossley <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
Peter Hunsberger wrote:
> Matthew Langham wrote:
> >
> > We have a customer looking to build an architecture around Open Source
> > frameworks. He has asked us about the differences in needed resources
(CPU,
> > Memory) when writing an application using Cocoon as compared to a
Struts/JSP
> > solution. While I realize the answer is probably "that depends", there
are
> > certain customers who just aren't interested in that type of answer :-(.
And
> > this customer actually has to pay internal charges depending on the
amount
> > of memory and CPU needed.
> >
> > So maybe someone out there has actually done this type of comparison or
can
> > point me to something?
>
> Can't help directly, but be sure to point out that they should also
> factor in development and maintenance costs to get the total picture.
>
> Note that if you end up doing the testing yourself Cocoon will could
> loose unless you exploit caching.
We (cocoon-dev) should already know some of these
answers, at least at a basic level.
We now have cocoon.zones.apache.org <http://cocoon.zones.apache.org> where
we run
our own Cocoon. We should have some "benchmark"
applications there, with a well-configured cache.
That should enable us to have actual values.
Of course it does depend on the actual application.
Another resource that we could develop would be
a set of documents which describe some different
application scenarios. Then ask the Cocoon community
to indicate the resources that they think these
applications would require. Document the average.
I wonder if some company should engage a few Cocoon
developers to initiate this framework, doing it as
part of the Apache Cocoon project.
-David
Re: Resource comparison between Cocoon and Struts/JSP??
Posted by Irv Salisbury <ir...@gmail.com>.
It is really difficult to compare a JSP/Struts solution with a cocoon
solution without knowing how many users, what types of things are taking
place (like Hibernate, SQLTransformer, etc) How much is Java, how much is
XML, etc. Do you have a lots of Javaflow? As we have seen on this list the
past few days, there are MANY ways to do the same thing in cocoon.
So, the best I can offer is our application we built and the resources we
need.
It is primarily an app made up of CForms that use JavaFlow with the XML
binding and our own modified SQLTransformer. (To add transactions and paging
all in one component) (We started with flowscript and found it didn't work
in the latest versions of Weblogic and Websphere, so beware!) We have about
175 CForms, a custom reporting engine built on cocoon, and about 250 total
pages. Lots of shared pipelines, aggregators, etc. It is a product, and
the whole thing is based on cocoon. http://www.dotech.com/realnet/
To have about 10 simultaneous users hitting the app, we have found server
settings of 256 (min) and 512 (max) seem to work just fine. The app does
perform better if we use 512 (min) 1GB (max).
Having been involved in apps using other technologies, I would imagine a
more "pure Java" solution like JSP/Struts probably would require less
memory.
However, the speed does rock in the app. We have gotten comments on how
well things perform. As another comparison, our custom reporting engine is
mostly XSL code and does perform better than the eclipse reports and similar
to jasper reports on our report needs.
I don't know how to quantify the CPU usage for you. When the app is busy,
the cpu is usually pretty pegged. (At least it is using the CPU)
Sorry, that is the best I can offer. I have not seen any major performance
problems with cocoon, but have seen the memory usage a little higher. Also,
keep in mind that if you are doing a lot of XML, I have seen major
differences in performance based on how well you write XSL. Often, keeping
performance in mind when writing XSL can make a 10x difference on large XML
sets. (And if you write a lot of cocoon apps you WILL have large XML sets
:-) The profiler can be your friend here when trying to track down where
your app is taking the time.
Irv
On 12/4/05, David Crossley <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Peter Hunsberger wrote:
> > Matthew Langham wrote:
> > >
> > > We have a customer looking to build an architecture around Open Source
> > > frameworks. He has asked us about the differences in needed resources
> (CPU,
> > > Memory) when writing an application using Cocoon as compared to a
> Struts/JSP
> > > solution. While I realize the answer is probably "that depends", there
> are
> > > certain customers who just aren't interested in that type of answer
> :-(. And
> > > this customer actually has to pay internal charges depending on the
> amount
> > > of memory and CPU needed.
> > >
> > > So maybe someone out there has actually done this type of comparison
> or can
> > > point me to something?
> >
> > Can't help directly, but be sure to point out that they should also
> > factor in development and maintenance costs to get the total picture.
> >
> > Note that if you end up doing the testing yourself Cocoon will could
> > loose unless you exploit caching.
>
> We (cocoon-dev) should already know some of these
> answers, at least at a basic level.
>
> We now have cocoon.zones.apache.org where we run
> our own Cocoon. We should have some "benchmark"
> applications there, with a well-configured cache.
> That should enable us to have actual values.
>
> Of course it does depend on the actual application.
>
> Another resource that we could develop would be
> a set of documents which describe some different
> application scenarios. Then ask the Cocoon community
> to indicate the resources that they think these
> applications would require. Document the average.
>
> I wonder if some company should engage a few Cocoon
> developers to initiate this framework, doing it as
> part of the Apache Cocoon project.
>
> -David
>
Re: Resource comparison between Cocoon and Struts/JSP??
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Peter Hunsberger wrote:
> Matthew Langham wrote:
> >
> > We have a customer looking to build an architecture around Open Source
> > frameworks. He has asked us about the differences in needed resources (CPU,
> > Memory) when writing an application using Cocoon as compared to a Struts/JSP
> > solution. While I realize the answer is probably "that depends", there are
> > certain customers who just aren't interested in that type of answer :-(. And
> > this customer actually has to pay internal charges depending on the amount
> > of memory and CPU needed.
> >
> > So maybe someone out there has actually done this type of comparison or can
> > point me to something?
>
> Can't help directly, but be sure to point out that they should also
> factor in development and maintenance costs to get the total picture.
>
> Note that if you end up doing the testing yourself Cocoon will could
> loose unless you exploit caching.
We (cocoon-dev) should already know some of these
answers, at least at a basic level.
We now have cocoon.zones.apache.org where we run
our own Cocoon. We should have some "benchmark"
applications there, with a well-configured cache.
That should enable us to have actual values.
Of course it does depend on the actual application.
Another resource that we could develop would be
a set of documents which describe some different
application scenarios. Then ask the Cocoon community
to indicate the resources that they think these
applications would require. Document the average.
I wonder if some company should engage a few Cocoon
developers to initiate this framework, doing it as
part of the Apache Cocoon project.
-David
Re: Resource comparison between Cocoon and Struts/JSP??
Posted by Peter Hunsberger <pe...@gmail.com>.
On 11/30/05, Matthew Langham <ml...@s-und-n.de> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> We have a customer looking to build an architecture around Open Source
> frameworks. He has asked us about the differences in needed resources (CPU,
> Memory) when writing an application using Cocoon as compared to a Struts/JSP
> solution. While I realize the answer is probably "that depends", there are
> certain customers who just aren't interested in that type of answer :-(. And
> this customer actually has to pay internal charges depending on the amount
> of memory and CPU needed.
>
> So maybe someone out there has actually done this type of comparison or can
> point me to something?
>
Can't help directly, but be sure to point out that they should also
factor in development and maintenance costs to get the total picture.
Note that if you end up doing the testing yourself Cocoon will could
loose unless you exploit caching.
--
Peter Hunsberger
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@cocoon.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@cocoon.apache.org
Re: Resource comparison between Cocoon and Struts/JSP??
Posted by Antonio Fiol Bonnín <an...@gmail.com>.
> We have a customer looking to build an architecture around Open Source
> frameworks. He has asked us about the differences in needed resources (CPU,
> Memory) when writing an application using Cocoon as compared to a Struts/JSP
> solution. While I realize the answer is probably "that depends", there are
> certain customers who just aren't interested in that type of answer :-(. And
> this customer actually has to pay internal charges depending on the amount
> of memory and CPU needed.
>
> So maybe someone out there has actually done this type of comparison or can
> point me to something?
We have NOT done this type of comparison, but I would expect the following:
A Full-Cocoon "Hello World" would have a much larger memory footprint
than a Struts one, because Cocoon has lots of blocks that you would
not use for that.
However, once you have developed the app code and reduced the cocoon
build to your strict needs, you would probably see them converge.
About CPU consumption, that usually depends heavily on your
application and your optimizations (on both sides).
HTH,
--
Antonio
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@cocoon.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@cocoon.apache.org
Re: Resource comparison between Cocoon and Struts/JSP??
Posted by Peter Hunsberger <pe...@gmail.com>.
On 11/30/05, Matthew Langham <ml...@s-und-n.de> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> We have a customer looking to build an architecture around Open Source
> frameworks. He has asked us about the differences in needed resources (CPU,
> Memory) when writing an application using Cocoon as compared to a Struts/JSP
> solution. While I realize the answer is probably "that depends", there are
> certain customers who just aren't interested in that type of answer :-(. And
> this customer actually has to pay internal charges depending on the amount
> of memory and CPU needed.
>
> So maybe someone out there has actually done this type of comparison or can
> point me to something?
>
Can't help directly, but be sure to point out that they should also
factor in development and maintenance costs to get the total picture.
Note that if you end up doing the testing yourself Cocoon will could
loose unless you exploit caching.
--
Peter Hunsberger
Re: Resource comparison between Cocoon and Struts/JSP??
Posted by hepabolu <he...@gmail.com>.
Matthew Langham wrote:
> Hi,
>
> We have a customer looking to build an architecture around Open Source
> frameworks. He has asked us about the differences in needed resources (CPU,
> Memory) when writing an application using Cocoon as compared to a Struts/JSP
> solution. While I realize the answer is probably "that depends", there are
> certain customers who just aren't interested in that type of answer :-(. And
> this customer actually has to pay internal charges depending on the amount
> of memory and CPU needed.
>
> So maybe someone out there has actually done this type of comparison or can
> point me to something?
Sorry, I can't be of help, but I would like very much see the result of
this in a review that is suitable for our website.
Bye, Helma