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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Coach Wei <co...@nexaweb.com> on 2006/06/23 05:55:50 UTC
Extensible Ajax Platform (XAP) Project Update
XAP project infrastructure has been set up, code has been committed and
the project is up and running:
1. The initial website is set up at: http://incubator.apache.org/xap
2. The source code is at: http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/xap
3. You are welcome to subscribe to XAP dev list via
xap-dev-subscribe@incubator.apache.org.
4. XAP developers hold bi-weekly IRC chat on irc.freenode.net - channel
#xap. This is held on Thursday of the 2nd and 4th week every month at
17:00PM GMT (1PM ET, 10AM PT) for one hour. The next one is on June
29th.
Please send comments/questions/issues etc to
xap-dev@incubator.apache.org. Thanks.
--Coach Wei
-----Original Message-----
From: Cliff Schmidt [mailto:cliffschmidt@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 2:58 PM
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Subject: [VOTE][RESULT] XAP Proposal PASSED
Based on the following votes (five of which were cast by PMC
members), the XAP proposal has been accepted for incubation under the
sponsorship of the Incubator PMC.
+1 Davanum Srinivas
+1 Noel J. Bergman
+1 Craeg Strong
+1 Henri Yandell
+1 Susan Wu
+1 Craig L Russell
+1 Sanjiva Weerawarana
+1 Jim Jagielski
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Re: Extensible Ajax Platform (XAP) Project Update
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com>.
On 7/11/06, Jean T. Anderson <jt...@bristowhill.com> wrote:
> Given this paragraph in the committers guide [1]:
>
> > Everything -- but everything-- inside the Apache world occurs or is reflected in email. As some people say, 'If it isn't in my email, it didn't happen.'
>
> Would adding this sentence to the end help?
>
> Decisions only get made on Apache mail lists -- not anywhere
> off list, such as IRC, IM, or private emails.
+1. Can't hurt to be more explicit. Would rephrase it to be "on
public Apache mail lists". (Unless it's personal or security-related,
it doesn't belong on the (P)PMC list either...but that caveat doesn't
apply here in this context.)
Thanks! -- justin
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Re: Extensible Ajax Platform (XAP) Project Update
Posted by "Jean T. Anderson" <jt...@bristowhill.com>.
Matthias Wessendorf wrote:
> Jean-
>
>
>> Given this paragraph in the committers guide [1]:
>>
>> > Everything -- but everything-- inside the Apache world occurs or is
>> reflected in email. As some people say, 'If it isn't in my email, it
>> didn't happen.'
>>
>> Would adding this sentence to the end help?
>>
>> Decisions only get made on Apache mail lists -- not anywhere
>> off list, such as IRC, IM, or private emails.
>
> yes! I like it! I'd like to provide a patch, or go ahead if you have
> "write" rights.
I'll go ahead and update it -- and fix those broken links at the same time.
-jean
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Re: Extensible Ajax Platform (XAP) Project Update
Posted by Matthias Wessendorf <ma...@apache.org>.
Jean-
> Given this paragraph in the committers guide [1]:
>
> > Everything -- but everything-- inside the Apache world occurs or is reflected in email. As some people say, 'If it isn't in my email, it didn't happen.'
>
> Would adding this sentence to the end help?
>
> Decisions only get made on Apache mail lists -- not anywhere
> off list, such as IRC, IM, or private emails.
yes! I like it! I'd like to provide a patch, or go ahead if you have
"write" rights.
-Matthias
> > btw. 404 for:
> > http://incubator.apache.org/howtoparticipate.html
>
> oof! some post-docathon moldly links need to be cleaned up. thanks for
> pointing it out.
>
> -jean
>
> [1] http://incubator.apache.org/guides/committer.html
>
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--
Matthias Wessendorf
futher stuff:
blog: http://jroller.com/page/mwessendorf
mail: mwessendorf-at-gmail-dot-com
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Re: Extensible Ajax Platform (XAP) Project Update
Posted by "Jean T. Anderson" <jt...@bristowhill.com>.
Matthias Wessendorf wrote:
>> Any off-list communication is a potential problem, not just IRC.
>
> sure. but IRC is much more a "problem" than IM.
> IM *mostly* is peer-peer "chat". IRC a *group* is involved.
Given this paragraph in the committers guide [1]:
> Everything -- but everything-- inside the Apache world occurs or is reflected in email. As some people say, 'If it isn't in my email, it didn't happen.'
Would adding this sentence to the end help?
Decisions only get made on Apache mail lists -- not anywhere
off list, such as IRC, IM, or private emails.
> btw. 404 for:
> http://incubator.apache.org/howtoparticipate.html
oof! some post-docathon moldly links need to be cleaned up. thanks for
pointing it out.
-jean
[1] http://incubator.apache.org/guides/committer.html
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Re: Extensible Ajax Platform (XAP) Project Update
Posted by Matthias Wessendorf <ma...@apache.org>.
> Any off-list communication is a potential problem, not just IRC.
sure. but IRC is much more a "problem" than IM.
IM *mostly* is peer-peer "chat". IRC a *group* is involved.
btw. 404 for:
http://incubator.apache.org/howtoparticipate.html
> -jean
>
>
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>
--
Matthias Wessendorf
futher stuff:
blog: http://jroller.com/page/mwessendorf
mail: mwessendorf-at-gmail-dot-com
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Re: Extensible Ajax Platform (XAP) Project Update
Posted by "Jean T. Anderson" <jt...@bristowhill.com>.
Matthias Wessendorf wrote:
>> > Someone did point out that dev traffic is falling off while commit
>> > traffic is same or increasing.
>>
>> Yep -- and since asking about the Synapse perspective, I haven't seen
>> a persuasive argument that IRC has been a particularly positive thing
>> for them. The key issue could be whether IRC is used as "a learning
>> tool to rapidly bring new people up to speed" (as Noel asked, and I
>> echoed, curiosity about) , or whether it is more for development
>> discussions (which I think is a dangerous move, particularly for a new
>> project).
>
> I think we (or more correct; the Incubator PMC) should put it as an
> extra information to the guide lines, that IRC is *not* the "channel"
> to make dev. related decisions.
After the recent docathon
http://incubator.apache.org/guides/committer.html now has this:
> Everything -- but everything-- inside the Apache world occurs or is reflected in email. As some people say, 'If it isn't in my email, it didn't happen.'
Any off-list communication is a potential problem, not just IRC.
-jean
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Re: Extensible Ajax Platform (XAP) Project Update
Posted by Matthias Wessendorf <ma...@apache.org>.
> > Someone did point out that dev traffic is falling off while commit
> > traffic is same or increasing.
>
> Yep -- and since asking about the Synapse perspective, I haven't seen
> a persuasive argument that IRC has been a particularly positive thing
> for them. The key issue could be whether IRC is used as "a learning
> tool to rapidly bring new people up to speed" (as Noel asked, and I
> echoed, curiosity about) , or whether it is more for development
> discussions (which I think is a dangerous move, particularly for a new
> project).
I think we (or more correct; the Incubator PMC) should put it as an
extra information to the guide lines, that IRC is *not* the "channel"
to make dev. related decisions.
-Matthias
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Re: Extensible Ajax Platform (XAP) Project Update
Posted by Cliff Schmidt <cl...@gmail.com>.
On 7/11/06, Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com> wrote:
> This thread may be dead/resolved, in which case just ignore me.
It was only "mostly-dead"...but you've raised some good points that I
agree with.
> Cliff Schmidt wrote:
> > On 6/23/06, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> >> The use of e-mail as the primary means for communication is part of ASF
> >> policy and philosophy, and we can certainly learn lessons from
> >> projects that
> >> have gone against it. IRC tends to breed a more closed, albeit arguably
> >> more integrated, community.
> >>
> >> That said, if IRC can be used as a learning tool to rapidly bring new
> >> people
> >> up to speed, and if the information gathered from those sessions is
> >> preserved for others to follow up via web-site and e-mail, how do people
> >> perceive that?
> >
> > I've never done that on a project, but I think it could be a
> > reasonable thing for a project to try. I believe the Synapse folks
> > have been doing regular IRC meetings from early on. I'd be interested
> > in their perspective on the pros and cons, particularly as an
> > incubating project.
>
> Someone did point out that dev traffic is falling off while commit
> traffic is same or increasing.
Yep -- and since asking about the Synapse perspective, I haven't seen
a persuasive argument that IRC has been a particularly positive thing
for them. The key issue could be whether IRC is used as "a learning
tool to rapidly bring new people up to speed" (as Noel asked, and I
echoed, curiosity about) , or whether it is more for development
discussions (which I think is a dangerous move, particularly for a new
project).
> > As a XAP mentor, I know that the committers already understand that no
> > decisions will be made over IRC, that logs of each IRC will be
> > immediately made available to the entire community, and that they need
> > to be sensitive to any concerns from people wishing but unable to
> > participate. But, are there other thoughts from the Synapse folks or
> > anyone else who has used regular IRC meetings?
>
> I think that people can have that understanding, but I think that it
> doesn't matter - it's been my experience that while people are able to
> quote the letter of the law as well as the explain the reason behind it,
> people unintentionally make "informal decisions" on IRC and execute on
> them, all with the best of intentions. I know i've seen it with
> Geronimo, and it can be very disruptive, even though it may be accidental.
>
> I think lots of decisions made on dev lists are the same - informal -
> without the trappings of a vote or such, because many decisions are made
> by "lazy consensus" - people discuss things or search for help, and then
> continue down whatever modified path the group explicitly or implicitly
> agreed to.
+1
> In the case of XAP, I'm guessing that many of the committers are
> employees or contractors/consultants of Nexaweb. Were I a mentor, I'd
> want to be sure that pre-existing development process is being
> sufficiently broken up to make it an Apache community development
> project, and would worry that regular IRC meetings might be confused
> with periodic development meetings...
I'm not as concerned about this point. Having a semi-monthly IRC
session to help bring new people up to speed is unlikely to be the
thing that holds back a closed development process from becoming an
open and collaborative one.
The short, sound-bite version of the advice I give companies that are
trying to transition their development process to one like Apache's
is, "commits should make sense with the context of the public dev-list
archive alone, and the dev-list should make sense with the context of
the code base alone." (there are exceptions such as bug/issue history,
etc, but that doesn't fit in the sound-bite ;-) The idea being to
prevent potential hallway conversations or other communication from
being part of the context of the work.
The kind of IRC session that Noel was asking about is less likely to
be the problem. However, I agree with your concerns people
unintentionally making informal decisions on development-oriented IRC
meetings.
Cliff
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Re: Extensible Ajax Platform (XAP) Project Update
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>.
This thread may be dead/resolved, in which case just ignore me.
Cliff Schmidt wrote:
> On 6/23/06, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
>> The use of e-mail as the primary means for communication is part of ASF
>> policy and philosophy, and we can certainly learn lessons from
>> projects that
>> have gone against it. IRC tends to breed a more closed, albeit arguably
>> more integrated, community.
>>
>> That said, if IRC can be used as a learning tool to rapidly bring new
>> people
>> up to speed, and if the information gathered from those sessions is
>> preserved for others to follow up via web-site and e-mail, how do people
>> perceive that?
>
> I've never done that on a project, but I think it could be a
> reasonable thing for a project to try. I believe the Synapse folks
> have been doing regular IRC meetings from early on. I'd be interested
> in their perspective on the pros and cons, particularly as an
> incubating project.
Someone did point out that dev traffic is falling off while commit
traffic is same or increasing.
>
> As a XAP mentor, I know that the committers already understand that no
> decisions will be made over IRC, that logs of each IRC will be
> immediately made available to the entire community, and that they need
> to be sensitive to any concerns from people wishing but unable to
> participate. But, are there other thoughts from the Synapse folks or
> anyone else who has used regular IRC meetings?
I think that people can have that understanding, but I think that it
doesn't matter - it's been my experience that while people are able to
quote the letter of the law as well as the explain the reason behind it,
people unintentionally make "informal decisions" on IRC and execute on
them, all with the best of intentions. I know i've seen it with
Geronimo, and it can be very disruptive, even though it may be accidental.
I think lots of decisions made on dev lists are the same - informal -
without the trappings of a vote or such, because many decisions are made
by "lazy consensus" - people discuss things or search for help, and then
continue down whatever modified path the group explicitly or implicitly
agreed to.
In the case of XAP, I'm guessing that many of the committers are
employees or contractors/consultants of Nexaweb. Were I a mentor, I'd
want to be sure that pre-existing development process is being
sufficiently broken up to make it an Apache community development
project, and would worry that regular IRC meetings might be confused
with periodic development meetings...
geir
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Re: primary email, balanced use of IRC
Posted by Yoav Shapira <yo...@apache.org>.
Hola,
I also wanted to chime in on another aspect of this besides everything
Martin, Phil, et al have said. (and I completely agree with their
cautions / questions).
Having a regularly-scheduled meeting could easily feel like an
obligation, as in if you don't participate in the meetings you're not
part of the community. Besides feeling corporate, I think this would
be a negative effect on attracting new contributors, because the
consideration of scheduling time for this meeting would cross their
minds. In other words, even if it's fine for all existing committers
because they spend large chunks of their work time on XAP anyhow, it
would be a barrier to growing the community and diversifying it.
I'm not just being abstract, by the way: this is from my personal
feelings. I think XAP is a cool idea, it's a is a project I'm
interested in, and would want to contribute occasionally.
But I don't have the bandwidth to commit regular hours to it, and the
corporate feel of regularly scheduled meetings is a turn off for me.
It could be I'm unusual in this annoyance with regularly scheduled
meetings, I don't know. But I would urge the XAP PPMC to consider the
impact of these meetings on potential new contributors who have a lot
of other projects to which they could devote their limited bandwidth.
Yoav
On 6/24/06, Phil Steitz <ph...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6/23/06, David Crossley <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
> <snip/>
> >
> > Being there in real time is also difficult.
> >
>
> This effectively cuts out a lot of people. For partly selfish
> reasons, I would hate to see apache projects trend toward more
> synchronous communications requirements.
>
> > That is why the summary is so important.
> >
> <snip/>
> >
> Have any communities consistently turned summaries into discussions?
> Have people been able to "jump in" to archived IRC log discussions
> meaningfully? Take these as naive questions from someone with limited
> experience reading / interacting with IRC logs or participating in IRC
> discussions.
>
> Phil
>
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>
--
Yoav Shapira
Nimalex LLC
1 Mifflin Place, Suite 310
Cambridge, MA, USA
yoavs@computer.org / www.yoavshapira.com
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Re: primary email, balanced use of IRC
Posted by Phil Steitz <ph...@gmail.com>.
On 6/23/06, David Crossley <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
<snip/>
>
> Being there in real time is also difficult.
>
This effectively cuts out a lot of people. For partly selfish
reasons, I would hate to see apache projects trend toward more
synchronous communications requirements.
> That is why the summary is so important.
>
<snip/>
>
Have any communities consistently turned summaries into discussions?
Have people been able to "jump in" to archived IRC log discussions
meaningfully? Take these as naive questions from someone with limited
experience reading / interacting with IRC logs or participating in IRC
discussions.
Phil
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Re: primary email, balanced use of IRC
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Martin Cooper wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> >
> >The committer who is operator does a regular commit of
> >the logfile to our SVN. This keeps good track and allows
> >us to refer to the log during the meeting. It could
> >also enable people not on IRC to still be involved
> >because they could reply to the svn commit email.
>
> Wading through 24 hours of IRC logs is not something many people are going
> to do, though, especially if they weren't part of the original discussion,
> and so don't know what they're looking for.
I agree. Forrest is still a small project, so it is
manageable. Average log size is 1000 lines.
As we all know, reading IRC logs is very difficult.
Being there in real time is also difficult.
That is why the summary is so important.
> >We have said that we will also create a summary text
> >of the days events. This latter task has not been
> >carried out very well.
>
> This is one of my main concerns. More times than not, I've seen claims that
> a summary will be posted that are not followed up.
I agree. Forrest is on thin ice.
> >Personally i reckon that the events have been very
> >beneficial.
>
> Have you participated in them? I'm sure people who participate feel they go
> well, but I'd be more concerned about how the people who have
> _not_participated feel about them.
All but one. And i was keen to read the whole log.
Yes, i agree we need to see other points-of-view.
> >I am still wary of using IRC more often than that.
I am very glad that this topic is happening in a wider
forum.
-David
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Re: primary email, balanced use of IRC
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.
On 6/23/06, David Crossley <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Cliff Schmidt wrote:
> > Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> >
> > >The use of e-mail as the primary means for communication is part of ASF
> > >policy and philosophy, and we can certainly learn lessons from projects
> > >that
> > >have gone against it. IRC tends to breed a more closed, albeit
> arguably
> > >more integrated, community.
> > >
> > >That said, if IRC can be used as a learning tool to rapidly bring new
> > >people
> > >up to speed, and if the information gathered from those sessions is
> > >preserved for others to follow up via web-site and e-mail, how do
> people
> > >perceive that?
> >
> > I've never done that on a project, but I think it could be a
> > reasonable thing for a project to try. I believe the Synapse folks
> > have been doing regular IRC meetings from early on. I'd be interested
> > in their perspective on the pros and cons, particularly as an
> > incubating project.
> >
> > As a XAP mentor, I know that the committers already understand that no
> > decisions will be made over IRC, that logs of each IRC will be
> > immediately made available to the entire community, and that they need
> > to be sensitive to any concerns from people wishing but unable to
> > participate. But, are there other thoughts from the Synapse folks or
> > anyone else who has used regular IRC meetings?
>
> At Apache Forrest we strive to have all communication
> via the mailing lists.
>
> We have a deliberate IRC session once per month.
> It goes for 24 hours so that everyone can be involved.
> It is the second Friday of the month starting at a
> specific time. We use a different channel name, chosen
> by the operator. That prevents the channel from being
> constantly available and turning into either a club
> or a support forum.
> http://forrest.apache.org/forrest-friday.html
>
> We simultaneously use the dev@ mailing list.
> Some issues are better dealt with there.
>
> The committer who is operator does a regular commit of
> the logfile to our SVN. This keeps good track and allows
> us to refer to the log during the meeting. It could
> also enable people not on IRC to still be involved
> because they could reply to the svn commit email.
Wading through 24 hours of IRC logs is not something many people are going
to do, though, especially if they weren't part of the original discussion,
and so don't know what they're looking for.
We have said that we will also create a summary text
> of the days events. This latter task has not been
> carried out very well.
This is one of my main concerns. More times than not, I've seen claims that
a summary will be posted that are not followed up.
Personally i reckon that the events have been very
> beneficial.
Have you participated in them? I'm sure people who participate feel they go
well, but I'd be more concerned about how the people who have
_not_participated feel about them.
--
Martin Cooper
I am still wary of using IRC more often
> than that.
>
> -David
>
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Re: primary email, balanced use of IRC
Posted by John Sisson <jr...@gmail.com>.
sorry for the late reply..
David Crossley wrote:
> Cliff Schmidt wrote:
>
>> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>
>>
>>> The use of e-mail as the primary means for communication is part of ASF
>>> policy and philosophy, and we can certainly learn lessons from projects
>>> that
>>> have gone against it. IRC tends to breed a more closed, albeit arguably
>>> more integrated, community.
>>>
>>> That said, if IRC can be used as a learning tool to rapidly bring new
>>> people
>>> up to speed, and if the information gathered from those sessions is
>>> preserved for others to follow up via web-site and e-mail, how do people
>>> perceive that?
>>>
IRC can be great as a learning tool, but the downside I have seen is
that often that information that is learned is not documented (e.g. in a
Wiki or mailing list) for the benefit of others and the same questions
may end up being asked by many people over time.
>> I've never done that on a project, but I think it could be a
>> reasonable thing for a project to try. I believe the Synapse folks
>> have been doing regular IRC meetings from early on. I'd be interested
>> in their perspective on the pros and cons, particularly as an
>> incubating project.
>>
>> As a XAP mentor, I know that the committers already understand that no
>> decisions will be made over IRC, that logs of each IRC will be
>> immediately made available to the entire community, and that they need
>> to be sensitive to any concerns from people wishing but unable to
>> participate. But, are there other thoughts from the Synapse folks or
>> anyone else who has used regular IRC meetings?
>>
>
> At Apache Forrest we strive to have all communication
> via the mailing lists.
>
> We have a deliberate IRC session once per month.
> It goes for 24 hours so that everyone can be involved.
> It is the second Friday of the month starting at a
> specific time. We use a different channel name, chosen
> by the operator. That prevents the channel from being
> constantly available and turning into either a club
> or a support forum.
> http://forrest.apache.org/forrest-friday.html
>
> We simultaneously use the dev@ mailing list.
> Some issues are better dealt with there.
>
> The committer who is operator does a regular commit of
> the logfile to our SVN. This keeps good track and allows
> us to refer to the log during the meeting. It could
> also enable people not on IRC to still be involved
> because they could reply to the svn commit email.
>
Currently in Geronimo we don't post IRC logs to the dev list but have
plans to do so in an automated fashion.
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=114912883000003&r=1&w=2
> We have said that we will also create a summary text
> of the days events. This latter task has not been
> carried out very well.
>
>
I don't think it is realistic on busy IRC forums for one person to have
the job of summarizing the IRC log for the day considering there may be
a large number of different issues discussed by different people and the
person summarizing may not understand what all the issues were.
Probably better if individuals summarized their discussions.
John
> Personally i reckon that the events have been very
> beneficial. I am still wary of using IRC more often
> than that.
>
> -David
>
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>
>
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primary email, balanced use of IRC
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Cliff Schmidt wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
> >The use of e-mail as the primary means for communication is part of ASF
> >policy and philosophy, and we can certainly learn lessons from projects
> >that
> >have gone against it. IRC tends to breed a more closed, albeit arguably
> >more integrated, community.
> >
> >That said, if IRC can be used as a learning tool to rapidly bring new
> >people
> >up to speed, and if the information gathered from those sessions is
> >preserved for others to follow up via web-site and e-mail, how do people
> >perceive that?
>
> I've never done that on a project, but I think it could be a
> reasonable thing for a project to try. I believe the Synapse folks
> have been doing regular IRC meetings from early on. I'd be interested
> in their perspective on the pros and cons, particularly as an
> incubating project.
>
> As a XAP mentor, I know that the committers already understand that no
> decisions will be made over IRC, that logs of each IRC will be
> immediately made available to the entire community, and that they need
> to be sensitive to any concerns from people wishing but unable to
> participate. But, are there other thoughts from the Synapse folks or
> anyone else who has used regular IRC meetings?
At Apache Forrest we strive to have all communication
via the mailing lists.
We have a deliberate IRC session once per month.
It goes for 24 hours so that everyone can be involved.
It is the second Friday of the month starting at a
specific time. We use a different channel name, chosen
by the operator. That prevents the channel from being
constantly available and turning into either a club
or a support forum.
http://forrest.apache.org/forrest-friday.html
We simultaneously use the dev@ mailing list.
Some issues are better dealt with there.
The committer who is operator does a regular commit of
the logfile to our SVN. This keeps good track and allows
us to refer to the log during the meeting. It could
also enable people not on IRC to still be involved
because they could reply to the svn commit email.
We have said that we will also create a summary text
of the days events. This latter task has not been
carried out very well.
Personally i reckon that the events have been very
beneficial. I am still wary of using IRC more often
than that.
-David
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Re: Extensible Ajax Platform (XAP) Project Update
Posted by Cliff Schmidt <cl...@gmail.com>.
On 6/23/06, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> The use of e-mail as the primary means for communication is part of ASF
> policy and philosophy, and we can certainly learn lessons from projects that
> have gone against it. IRC tends to breed a more closed, albeit arguably
> more integrated, community.
>
> That said, if IRC can be used as a learning tool to rapidly bring new people
> up to speed, and if the information gathered from those sessions is
> preserved for others to follow up via web-site and e-mail, how do people
> perceive that?
I've never done that on a project, but I think it could be a
reasonable thing for a project to try. I believe the Synapse folks
have been doing regular IRC meetings from early on. I'd be interested
in their perspective on the pros and cons, particularly as an
incubating project.
As a XAP mentor, I know that the committers already understand that no
decisions will be made over IRC, that logs of each IRC will be
immediately made available to the entire community, and that they need
to be sensitive to any concerns from people wishing but unable to
participate. But, are there other thoughts from the Synapse folks or
anyone else who has used regular IRC meetings?
Cliff
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RE: Extensible Ajax Platform (XAP) Project Update
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Matthias Wessendorf wrote:
> > IMHO, all of the discussions, especially this early on, should be
happening
> > on the mailing lists, to encourage more people to participate, and thus
help
> > grow the community.
> +1 on that.
The use of e-mail as the primary means for communication is part of ASF
policy and philosophy, and we can certainly learn lessons from projects that
have gone against it. IRC tends to breed a more closed, albeit arguably
more integrated, community.
That said, if IRC can be used as a learning tool to rapidly bring new people
up to speed, and if the information gathered from those sessions is
preserved for others to follow up via web-site and e-mail, how do people
perceive that?
--- Noel
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Re: Extensible Ajax Platform (XAP) Project Update
Posted by Matthias Wessendorf <ma...@apache.org>.
> IMHO, all of the discussions, especially this early on, should be happening
> on the mailing lists, to encourage more people to participate, and thus help
> grow the community.
+1 on that.
-Matthias
> --
> Martin Cooper
>
>
> Please send comments/questions/issues etc to
> > xap-dev@incubator.apache.org. Thanks.
> >
> > --Coach Wei
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Cliff Schmidt [mailto:cliffschmidt@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 2:58 PM
> > To: general@incubator.apache.org
> > Subject: [VOTE][RESULT] XAP Proposal PASSED
> >
> > Based on the following votes (five of which were cast by PMC
> > members), the XAP proposal has been accepted for incubation under the
> > sponsorship of the Incubator PMC.
> >
> > +1 Davanum Srinivas
> > +1 Noel J. Bergman
> > +1 Craeg Strong
> > +1 Henri Yandell
> > +1 Susan Wu
> > +1 Craig L Russell
> > +1 Sanjiva Weerawarana
> > +1 Jim Jagielski
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
--
Matthias Wessendorf
Aechterhoek 18
48282 Emsdetten
blog: http://jroller.com/page/mwessendorf
mail: mwessendorf-at-gmail-dot-com
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Re: Extensible Ajax Platform (XAP) Project Update
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.
On 6/22/06, Coach Wei <co...@nexaweb.com> wrote:
>
> XAP project infrastructure has been set up, code has been committed and
> the project is up and running:
>
> 1. The initial website is set up at: http://incubator.apache.org/xap
> 2. The source code is at: http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/xap
> 3. You are welcome to subscribe to XAP dev list via
> xap-dev-subscribe@incubator.apache.org.
> 4. XAP developers hold bi-weekly IRC chat on irc.freenode.net - channel
> #xap. This is held on Thursday of the 2nd and 4th week every month at
> 17:00PM GMT (1PM ET, 10AM PT) for one hour. The next one is on June
> 29th.
I'm concerned that an incubating project is using an exclusionary
communication channel such as IRC right from the get-go. People who are in
the "wrong" time zone, or people who don't have access to IRC or are simply
unavailable at the "right" time, will be excluded from the discussion. While
I saw that the "minutes" of the last meeting were posted to the dev list, I
also saw, in those minutes, that the decision to have biweekly IRC chats was
itself made on IRC... And IRC transcripts such as the one that was posted
are very hard to read, making it much more difficult for those not
participating at the time to get the gist of what actually happened.
IMHO, all of the discussions, especially this early on, should be happening
on the mailing lists, to encourage more people to participate, and thus help
grow the community.
--
Martin Cooper
Please send comments/questions/issues etc to
> xap-dev@incubator.apache.org. Thanks.
>
> --Coach Wei
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cliff Schmidt [mailto:cliffschmidt@gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 2:58 PM
> To: general@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: [VOTE][RESULT] XAP Proposal PASSED
>
> Based on the following votes (five of which were cast by PMC
> members), the XAP proposal has been accepted for incubation under the
> sponsorship of the Incubator PMC.
>
> +1 Davanum Srinivas
> +1 Noel J. Bergman
> +1 Craeg Strong
> +1 Henri Yandell
> +1 Susan Wu
> +1 Craig L Russell
> +1 Sanjiva Weerawarana
> +1 Jim Jagielski
>
>
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>
>