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Posted to dev@cocoon.apache.org by Sylvain Wallez <sy...@apache.org> on 2005/01/27 10:35:00 UTC
[FYI] Howard's safety first
http://howardlewisship.com/blog/2005/01/safety-first.html
Would be cool to have something similar for Cocoon ;-)
Sylvain
--
Sylvain Wallez Anyware Technologies
http://www.apache.org/~sylvain http://www.anyware-tech.com
{ XML, Java, Cocoon, OpenSource }*{ Training, Consulting, Projects }
Re: [FYI] Howard's safety first
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> On Thursday 27 January 2005 20:09, Steven Noels wrote:
>
>>On 27 Jan 2005, at 10:35, Sylvain Wallez wrote:
>>
>>>http://howardlewisship.com/blog/2005/01/safety-first.html
>>>
>>>Would be cool to have something similar for Cocoon ;-)
>>
>>Although, with all due respect, it shows how Howard is craving badly
>>for success, and is willing to go anywhere to find it. Regardless of
>>the merits of his framework itself, his new "marketing campaign"
>>deserves a Hani. Bah.
>
>
> I thought it was quite funny myself, but then I realized your 'point' (if any)
> that Struts is a TLP at Apache. hmmmm.... Can Apache project's compete?
Sure they can.
> And if so, what are the ethical borders?
The ones of mutual respect but this border has been crossed by many
people many times, so I'm not sure it's really a rule.
--
Stefano.
Re: [FYI] Howard's safety first
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Friday 28 January 2005 03:48, Steven Noels wrote:
> On 27 Jan 2005, at 17:02, Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> > I thought it was quite funny myself, but then I realized your 'point'
> > (if any)
> > that Struts is a TLP at Apache. hmmmm.... Can Apache project's
> > compete? And
> > if so, what are the ethical borders?
>
> What are you trying to infer?
Not so much infer at all... But there are a great deal of overlap between some
Apache projects, and I was just wondering if there are (or even if there
should be at all) any guidelines in cross-project market-share competition.
After all the cake is limited, and a project that attracts a larger mass will
typically fare better than those who don't. So to the conclusion is then,
what marketing means are you allowed to engage, and at what cost of other ASF
projects?
> I'd say the same if Howard starts bashing WebWork or any other
> framework out there. Rule #1 in marketing: never compete by talking
> (bad) about your competition - make sure you can stand on your own feet
> when trying to make your point.
That is a good advice, but rhymes pretty bad with the "Hani", as much as I
love the Bile, it is the same twist as Howards one.
Cheers
Niclas
Re: [FYI] Howard's safety first
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 27 Jan 2005, at 17:02, Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> I thought it was quite funny myself, but then I realized your 'point'
> (if any)
> that Struts is a TLP at Apache. hmmmm.... Can Apache project's
> compete? And
> if so, what are the ethical borders?
What are you trying to infer?
I'd say the same if Howard starts bashing WebWork or any other
framework out there. Rule #1 in marketing: never compete by talking
(bad) about your competition - make sure you can stand on your own feet
when trying to make your point.
That's all.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
Re: [FYI] Howard's safety first
Posted by Antonio Gallardo <ag...@agssa.net>.
On Jue, 27 de Enero de 2005, 12:33, Mark Lundquist dijo:
>
> On Jan 27, 2005, at 8:02 AM, Niclas Hedhman wrote:
>
>> I thought it was quite funny myself, but then I realized your 'point'
>> (if any)
>> that Struts is a TLP at Apache.
>
> What's a 'TLP'?
TLP = Top Level Project. An Apache project as cocoon that has an http
address like: cocoon.apache.org. Also, they have own PMC, etc.
Best Regards,
Antonio Gallardo
Re: [FYI] Howard's safety first
Posted by Mark Lundquist <ml...@wrinkledog.com>.
On Jan 27, 2005, at 8:02 AM, Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> I thought it was quite funny myself, but then I realized your 'point'
> (if any)
> that Struts is a TLP at Apache.
What's a 'TLP'?
—ml—
Re: [FYI] Howard's safety first
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Thursday 27 January 2005 20:09, Steven Noels wrote:
> On 27 Jan 2005, at 10:35, Sylvain Wallez wrote:
> > http://howardlewisship.com/blog/2005/01/safety-first.html
> >
> > Would be cool to have something similar for Cocoon ;-)
>
> Although, with all due respect, it shows how Howard is craving badly
> for success, and is willing to go anywhere to find it. Regardless of
> the merits of his framework itself, his new "marketing campaign"
> deserves a Hani. Bah.
I thought it was quite funny myself, but then I realized your 'point' (if any)
that Struts is a TLP at Apache. hmmmm.... Can Apache project's compete? And
if so, what are the ethical borders?
Cheers
Niclas
Re: [FYI] Howard's safety first
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 27 Jan 2005, at 10:35, Sylvain Wallez wrote:
> http://howardlewisship.com/blog/2005/01/safety-first.html
>
> Would be cool to have something similar for Cocoon ;-)
Although, with all due respect, it shows how Howard is craving badly
for success, and is willing to go anywhere to find it. Regardless of
the merits of his framework itself, his new "marketing campaign"
deserves a Hani. Bah.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
Re: [FYI] Howard's safety first
Posted by Sylvain Wallez <sy...@apache.org>.
Vadim Gritsenko wrote:
> Sylvain Wallez wrote:
>
>> http://howardlewisship.com/blog/2005/01/safety-first.html
>>
>> Would be cool to have something similar for Cocoon ;-)
>
>
> You mean this part:
> "by <name here>, the creator of <list here> frameworks."
>
> Or that part:
> "Friends don't let friends code struts"
>
> First one is too much of a shrine, second one is funny :)
Of course I mean the second one!
For the first one, there are only two possibilities for <name here> if
<list here> is "cocoon": either "stefano" or "the cocoon dev team".
Now I agree with Steven (and Niclas for the ethical point): bashing
other frameworks isn't a good way to prove that our own is better. We'd
better have a logo that shows the intrinsic qualities of our solution
than simply say that others are bad.
Sylvain
--
Sylvain Wallez Anyware Technologies
http://www.apache.org/~sylvain http://www.anyware-tech.com
{ XML, Java, Cocoon, OpenSource }*{ Training, Consulting, Projects }
Re: [FYI] Howard's safety first
Posted by Vadim Gritsenko <va...@reverycodes.com>.
Sylvain Wallez wrote:
> http://howardlewisship.com/blog/2005/01/safety-first.html
>
> Would be cool to have something similar for Cocoon ;-)
You mean this part:
"by <name here>, the creator of <list here> frameworks."
Or that part:
"Friends don't let friends code struts"
First one is too much of a shrine, second one is funny :)
Vadim