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Posted to dev@avalon.apache.org by Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org> on 2002/11/20 22:24:48 UTC
Pete ousted?
Hi,
I got up this morning and lo and behold I find out the announcement that my
account has been suspended. So thats irritates me. It seems the board has
decided on a mechanism to resolve Avalons problems.
A little bit depresessing given what I have put into this project and Apache
in general. For about 3 years now I have been putting in between 10 and 20
hours a week supporting and developing Avalon. When I got here it was a bit
of a mess but I managed to help clean things up or poke other people into
doing so.
I have also spent a considerable effort to get more people involved in Avalon.
Even given how unsexy work on a framework is I always tried to encourage
people to contribute in various ways. I also tried to get people involved by
nominating them and making sure they had the opportunity to get involved.
This probably includes most of the currently active committers (all except
Berin?). This also includes supporting a lot of people who are not Avalon
devs but do use parts of our work.
Even when I disagreed with something I helped make it happen. All the ugly
hacks re marker interfaces was added and then left in for cocoon support, as
was ComponentSelector, and the release() method was also left in due to
cocoon wants. I have also expended considerable effort updating ECM when I
don't use it and cleaning Fortress even though I don't much like the design
choices. Never once have I tried to "fix" these problems for other people.
They happen to like them so I let them develope their own solutions.
Even with Merlin you will be hard pressed to find a case where I was not
supportive of Stephens changes as long as it did not harm others. Merlin1 was
a fork of Phoenix but far from discouraging it I actually encouraged and
prodded until it finally got extracted. Even with early Merlin2 work I was
encouraging it despite it largely being yet another fork. I even recall
suggesting that it replace Fortress as low end container.
Not once have I consciously gone out to harm Avalon and yet here we are. I
have been judged unworth from those on high. It seems unlikely that I will
change and thus unlikely that I will be allowed back. Can't say thats a nice
prospect but I am not sure there are any alternatives.
Haven't read all (any) of the mail back log yet and not sure I will for a bit.
As to where I will go next? Not sure. I still am working on the same stuff I
have been working on for about 5 years (3 here at Avalon) so I will continue
that - not sure where or not sure how
--
Cheers,
Peter Donald
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
-- Voltaire
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Re: [User Community Action Required] Re: Pete ousted?
Posted by Vincent Tence <vt...@sympatico.ca>.
My system clock is causing me trouble. I am re-posting with the correct
time. Sorry about that.
Cheers,
Vincent
On Wed, 2002-11-20 at 13:11, Vincent Tence wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Following is the humble opinion of an Avalon fan who has been
> using the framework, ECM, logkit and many components in commercial
> applications for 1+ year.
>
> It seems rather strange - and for sure it worries me as a user - to see
> somebody who has contributed so much to the Avalon project as a whole being
> suspended this way.
>
> I am not a statistics expert, but I guess Pete's name is on more than 50% of
> the code I use. I do know that all committers - and users who are supplying
> patches - are putting great efforts into this project, but I feel like
> without Pete's contribution, it not quite the same. So what should I expect
> as a user? Is the priority still to get Avalon to the higher levels? I don't
> want to believe that this codebase I have been relying on (and hopefully
> will continue to) will loose its greatest contributors and with them, its
> momemtum. Some explanations to the user base would be welcome.
>
> I have always been very impressed by the quality of the individuals working
> on Avalon and the quality of the work they produced. This is definitely a
> great asset for the project. I also do believe that exploring different paths and
> confronting ideas is the way to go. I hope people are participating to
> this project to have fun and because they believe Avalon is great. But what I have
> seen on the list for several weeks is rather scary and don't encourage people to get involved,
> which is a shame. Even worse if it goes to the point where people get kicked out ...
>
> I can also imagine the effect it has on potential new users. As somebody pointed out recently,
> the web site still indicates that some refactoring is taking place, so you end up looking at
> the mailing list and find out that it's not code but team refactoring happening :-(
> This is not the kind of statibility users will look for.
>
> So please let Peter be in again and all keep up with the good work.
>
> Cheers,
> Vincent
>
> On Wed, 2002-11-20 at 19:54, Paul Hammant wrote:
> > Following on from Peter's posting and Sam Ruby's fair reply, I thought
> > I'd go public too...
> >
> > Peter,
> >
> > My heart bleeds for you dude. I have been with this project for years,
> > I know what you have put in. You have always been direct/assertive with
> > what you felt to be true, and many people understood that to be
> > aggression, which is wrong. Many of us including me are very keen for
> > your return. Even when the worst things were said about you, you
> > maintained a level tone. You held all in high-esteem, and never (well
> > 99.99% of the time) resorted to low blows or insults. Your character
> > and dedication is fantastic, we all miss you here at Avalon. That's all
> > of us...
> >
> > With the wisdom of the power's that be, a favourable wind, and some
> > positive advocacy from us & those you have helped over the years when
> > there was no need for you to get involved (and the rest of us were too
> > tired), you will hopefully be back /inside/ of the period allotted.
> > Avalon and Apache is simply not complete without you.
> >
> > Can all those that use Peter's works in open source and want his swift
> > return to the projects he loves please reply to this email with the
> > following section modified as appropriate:
> >
> > *---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > 1) Power's that be: Please let me appeal on Peter's behalf
> > and ask if you may see fit to look past this current episode.
> > 2) I use Peter's projects in my open source / proprietary /
> > commercial applications.
> > 3) I have been helped by Peter in the past. I found his help very useful.
> > 4) Please let Peter return to his projects at Apache, he's not so bad.
> > *----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Please also spread the word, and get as many people as possible to reply
> > to this - Committers, Users, Visitors, Luminaries...
> >
> > We'll also work on a http://jakarta.apache.org/site/peter.html page
> > right? A guide to what makes the man tick. This suggestion may be
> > cryptic to many ;-)
> >
> > - Paul
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
--
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Re: [User Community Action Required] Re: Pete ousted?
Posted by Vincent Tence <vt...@sympatico.ca>.
Hi all,
Following is the humble opinion of an Avalon fan who has been
using the framework, ECM, logkit and many components in commercial
applications for 1+ year.
It seems rather strange - and for sure it worries me as a user - to see
somebody who has contributed so much to the Avalon project as a whole being
suspended this way.
I am not a statistics expert, but I guess Pete's name is on more than 50% of
the code I use. I do know that all committers - and users who are supplying
patches - are putting great efforts into this project, but I feel like
without Pete's contribution, it not quite the same. So what should I expect
as a user? Is the priority still to get Avalon to the higher levels? I don't
want to believe that this codebase I have been relying on (and hopefully
will continue to) will loose its greatest contributors and with them, its
momemtum. Some explanations to the user base would be welcome.
I have always been very impressed by the quality of the individuals working
on Avalon and the quality of the work they produced. This is definitely a
great asset for the project. I also do believe that exploring different paths and
confronting ideas is the way to go. I hope people are participating to
this project to have fun and because they believe Avalon is great. But what I have
seen on the list for several weeks is rather scary and don't encourage people to get involved,
which is a shame. Even worse if it goes to the point where people get kicked out ...
I can also imagine the effect it has on potential new users. As somebody pointed out recently,
the web site still indicates that some refactoring is taking place, so you end up looking at
the mailing list and find out that it's not code but team refactoring happening :-(
This is not the kind of statibility users will look for.
So please let Peter be in again and all keep up with the good work.
Cheers,
Vincent
On Wed, 2002-11-20 at 19:54, Paul Hammant wrote:
> Following on from Peter's posting and Sam Ruby's fair reply, I thought
> I'd go public too...
>
> Peter,
>
> My heart bleeds for you dude. I have been with this project for years,
> I know what you have put in. You have always been direct/assertive with
> what you felt to be true, and many people understood that to be
> aggression, which is wrong. Many of us including me are very keen for
> your return. Even when the worst things were said about you, you
> maintained a level tone. You held all in high-esteem, and never (well
> 99.99% of the time) resorted to low blows or insults. Your character
> and dedication is fantastic, we all miss you here at Avalon. That's all
> of us...
>
> With the wisdom of the power's that be, a favourable wind, and some
> positive advocacy from us & those you have helped over the years when
> there was no need for you to get involved (and the rest of us were too
> tired), you will hopefully be back /inside/ of the period allotted.
> Avalon and Apache is simply not complete without you.
>
> Can all those that use Peter's works in open source and want his swift
> return to the projects he loves please reply to this email with the
> following section modified as appropriate:
>
> *---------------------------------------------------------------------
> 1) Power's that be: Please let me appeal on Peter's behalf
> and ask if you may see fit to look past this current episode.
> 2) I use Peter's projects in my open source / proprietary /
> commercial applications.
> 3) I have been helped by Peter in the past. I found his help very useful.
> 4) Please let Peter return to his projects at Apache, he's not so bad.
> *----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Please also spread the word, and get as many people as possible to reply
> to this - Committers, Users, Visitors, Luminaries...
>
> We'll also work on a http://jakarta.apache.org/site/peter.html page
> right? A guide to what makes the man tick. This suggestion may be
> cryptic to many ;-)
>
> - Paul
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
--
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Re: [User Community Action Required] Re: Pete ousted?
Posted by Eung-ju Park <co...@apache.org>.
All +1.
> 1) Power's that be: Please let me appeal on Peter's behalf
> and ask if you may see fit to look past this current episode.
+1
> 2) I use Peter's projects in my open source / proprietary /
> commercial applications.
+1
> 3) I have been helped by Peter in the past. I found his help very useful.
+1
> 4) Please let Peter return to his projects at Apache, he's not so bad.
+1
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Re: [User Community Action Required] Re: Pete ousted?
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Charles Benett wrote:
>
>> Paul Hammant wrote:
>>
>>> <snip>
>>> *---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> 1) Power's that be: Please let me appeal on Peter's behalf
>>> and ask if you may see fit to look past this current episode.
>>> 2) I use Peter's projects in my open source / proprietary /
>>> commercial applications.
>>> 3) I have been helped by Peter in the past. I found his help very
>>> useful.
>>> 4) Please let Peter return to his projects at Apache, he's not so bad.
>>> *----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>> +1
>>
>> I really don't see how suspending Peter Donald is helpful to Apache.
>> ASF - please reconsider.
>
>
> I would like to remind you that the action taken by the ASF Board is not
> a punishment but a 'wake-up call' and the action of removing voting
> rights and commit access is temporary.
>
> It is not up to Peter to:
^^^
Damn, is should be *NOW*.
I repeat, the above should read:
it is *NOW* up to Peter
Sorry for the typo, but there is a serious potential misunderstanding
there. Kudos to Noel for spotting this.
--
Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>
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Re: [User Community Action Required] Re: Pete ousted?
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Charles Benett wrote:
> Paul Hammant wrote:
>
>> <snip>
>> *---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 1) Power's that be: Please let me appeal on Peter's behalf
>> and ask if you may see fit to look past this current episode.
>> 2) I use Peter's projects in my open source / proprietary /
>> commercial applications.
>> 3) I have been helped by Peter in the past. I found his help very useful.
>> 4) Please let Peter return to his projects at Apache, he's not so bad.
>> *----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
> +1
>
> I really don't see how suspending Peter Donald is helpful to Apache. ASF
> - please reconsider.
I would like to remind you that the action taken by the ASF Board is not
a punishment but a 'wake-up call' and the action of removing voting
rights and commit access is temporary.
It is not up to Peter to:
1) talk about it pubblicly (a thing that many of us would greatly
appreciate)
2) decide to continue working inside the ASF with the ASF legal
protection and playing by the ASF social rules.
And I think it's highly respectful from the ASF board to decide *not* to
say anything about this. And highly respectful from Sam to allow Peter
to make public his private wording.
Now it's Peter's move.
--
Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>
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Re: [User Community Action Required] Re: Pete ousted?
Posted by Charles Benett <ch...@apache.org>.
Paul Hammant wrote:
> <snip>
> *---------------------------------------------------------------------
> 1) Power's that be: Please let me appeal on Peter's behalf
> and ask if you may see fit to look past this current episode.
> 2) I use Peter's projects in my open source / proprietary /
> commercial applications.
> 3) I have been helped by Peter in the past. I found his help very useful.
> 4) Please let Peter return to his projects at Apache, he's not so bad.
> *----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
+1
I really don't see how suspending Peter Donald is helpful to Apache. ASF
- please reconsider.
Charles R Benett
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RE: [User Community Action Required] Re: Pete ousted?
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@citi-us.com>.
> From: Peter Blakeley [mailto:dev@coolcat.com.au]
>
> Avalon was dead until Peter Donald took up the baton
Not necessarily true. It started breathing again when I got involved.
Peter just accelerated the process. That does not mean that I
agree with all that has happened. It is unfortunate that things went
as far as they did, and that the board even had to be involved in
the Avalon procedings in the first place.
It is important that we keep moving forward, and make Avalon fun
again. Let's draw fewer lines in the sand, and keep our conversations
constructive and technical. Don't commit anything controvercial
before discussing it on the list first. Who knows, someone else
may have been down that path before and learned some lessons the
hard way. I do not want to see COMMIT/REVERT/COMMIT/REVERT in
CVS, it is not constructive and it messes up the logs and bloats
CVS.
Peter's *countless* contributions, wisdom, and zeal will be
missed on many levels. Let's not descend into discord because you
disagree with the board. We don't have all the facts, and we have
to trust for the time being that the board made the right decision,
and that the decision was not easy to make. Hopefully, his account
will be reactivated and he can resume involvement in Avalon as
quickly as possible.
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Re: [User Community Action Required] Re: Pete ousted?
Posted by Peter Blakeley <de...@coolcat.com.au>.
Avalon was dead until Peter Donald took up the baton
>
>
> 1) Power's that be: Please let me appeal on Peter's behalf
> and ask if you may see fit to look past this current episode.
+1
>
> 2) I use Peter's projects in my open source / proprietary /
> commercial applications.
+1
>
> 3) I have been helped by Peter in the past. I found his help very useful.
+1
>
> 4) Please let Peter return to his projects at Apache, he's not so bad.
+1
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[User Community Action Required] Re: Pete ousted?
Posted by Greg Steuck <gr...@nest.cx>.
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Hash: SHA1
>>>>>"Paul" == Paul Hammant <Pa...@yahoo.com> writes:
Paul> Can all those that use Peter's works in open source and want
Paul> his swift return to the projects he loves please reply to this
Paul> email with the following section modified as appropriate:
1) Power's that be: Please let me appeal on Peter's behalf and
ask if you may see fit to look past this current episode.
2) I use Peter's projects in my proprietary/commercial applications.
3) I have been helped by Peter in the past. I found his help very useful.
4) Please let Peter return to his projects at Apache, he's brilliant!
I sign under each of the items above.
Thanks
Greg
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Re: [User Community Action Required] Re: Pete ousted?
Posted by Harmeet Bedi <ha...@kodemuse.com>.
Power's that be, please see past the current episode and reinstate Peter. He
has the energy and wisdom that makes Apache a good place.
I have use Peter's projects in my open source and commercial applications.
I have been helped by Peter in the past. I found his help very useful.
Please let Peter return to his projects at Apache.
Harmeet
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Re: [User Community Action Required] Re: Pete ousted?
Posted by Adam Murdoch <ad...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 21 Nov 2002 10:54 am, Paul Hammant wrote:
> 1) Power's that be: Please let me appeal on Peter's behalf
> and ask if you may see fit to look past this current episode.
+1
> 2) I use Peter's projects in my open source / proprietary /
> commercial applications.
+1
> 3) I have been helped by Peter in the past. I found his help very useful.
+1
> 4) Please let Peter return to his projects at Apache, he's not so bad.
+1
--
Adam
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Re: [User Community Action Required] Re: Pete ousted?
Posted by Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org>.
errr ... thanks all!
It was great to see support from everyone both on and off list :) I am glad to
see that the people I actually work with don't think I am a problem :)
I am not entirely sure at this stage what the boards problem with me is but I
will find out and if it is something that can be done about it then I should
be back.
Thanks everyone!
--
Cheers,
Peter Donald
------------------------------------------------------------
militant agnostic: i don't know, and you don't know either.
------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [User Community Action Required] Re: Pete ousted?
Posted by Darrell DeBoer <da...@apache.org>.
> 1) Power's that be: Please let me appeal on Peter's behalf
> and ask if you may see fit to look past this current episode.
+1
> 2) I use Peter's projects in my open source / proprietary /
> commercial applications.
+1
> 3) I have been helped by Peter in the past. I found his help very useful.
+1
> 4) Please let Peter return to his projects at Apache, he's not so bad.
+1
--
cheers,
Darrell DeBoer
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Re: [User Community Action Required] Re: Pete ousted?
Posted by Leif Mortenson <le...@tanukisoftware.com>.
> 1) Power's that be: Please let me appeal on Peter's behalf
> and ask if you may see fit to look past this current episode.
+1
> 2) I use Peter's projects in my open source / proprietary /
> commercial applications.
+1
> 3) I have been helped by Peter in the past. I found his help very useful.
+1
> 4) Please let Peter return to his projects at Apache, he's not so bad.
+1
Cheers,
Leif
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Re: [User Community Action Required] Re: Pete ousted?
Posted by Federico Barbieri <fe...@apache.org>.
Paul Hammant wrote:
> Huw,
>
>
> As for transpacency, I'd say not. This mail is public and eternal. What goes on here can directly
> affects people's lives. Imagine I'd said "Huw you are a complete idiot, nobody on earth should
> hire you for a coding position" (not true by the way), you'd be fairly unhappy that any
> prospective employer might find that.
Disagree. If you accept to work in open source then your code, your
action, everything there *is* public. If you screw up it's not up to us
to cover your errors the same way that if you work hard and well none
will hide your skills.
That is a general rule, which should, IMHO, apply here as well.
Peter is IMO a great guy and a great coder. That being said I don't
think he showed a positive and constructive attitude in the last weeks.
Threatening a fork is no good. It generate tension and tends to divide
the community. I thrust his reasons are honest and positive but his
reasons are know to him only, I can only judge the events.
I really hope this issue will be promptly solved, by both sides, and to
see Peter back on the code asap.
fede
Ps. I'll be offline for the next few days.
It's up to Pete how he handles the facts as stated by the
> board to him (the entity I formerly referred to as "the powers that be", until objections). The
> board has handled things correctly as fact as news dissemination goes. Incorrectly, in my
> opinion, on the action itself. I'll say again, I'll defend the benign dictatorship concept.
>
> Citizens of a benign dictator are occasionally going to feel hurt. We have to get over that and
> appeal to their benevolent side.
>
> Regards,
>
> - Paul
>
>
>
>
> --- Huw Roberts <hu...@apache.org> wrote: > I think it is detrimental to the community as a whole
> to have a user
>
>>suspended, removed or otherwise punished without some indication, made
>>to the community at large, of the reason. It is not strictly a private
>>matter between a governance board and a member, it affects us all. To
>>put it another way, some degree of transparency is required for the
>>functioning of the community, and I feel this missing right now.
>>
>>- Huw Roberts
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: [User Community Action Required] Re: Pete ousted?
Posted by Paul Hammant <pa...@yahoo.com>.
Huw,
This is a meritocracy that uses democracy as a way of deciding on issues where merit is not clear.
Sitting behind that is 'benign dictatorship'. In that design we'll occasionally be surprised and
we might object (I do here). Overall I defend the model.
As for transpacency, I'd say not. This mail is public and eternal. What goes on here can directly
affects people's lives. Imagine I'd said "Huw you are a complete idiot, nobody on earth should
hire you for a coding position" (not true by the way), you'd be fairly unhappy that any
prospective employer might find that. It's up to Pete how he handles the facts as stated by the
board to him (the entity I formerly referred to as "the powers that be", until objections). The
board has handled things correctly as fact as news dissemination goes. Incorrectly, in my
opinion, on the action itself. I'll say again, I'll defend the benign dictatorship concept.
Citizens of a benign dictator are occasionally going to feel hurt. We have to get over that and
appeal to their benevolent side.
Regards,
- Paul
--- Huw Roberts <hu...@apache.org> wrote: > I think it is detrimental to the community as a whole
to have a user
> suspended, removed or otherwise punished without some indication, made
> to the community at large, of the reason. It is not strictly a private
> matter between a governance board and a member, it affects us all. To
> put it another way, some degree of transparency is required for the
> functioning of the community, and I feel this missing right now.
>
> - Huw Roberts
>
>
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Re: [User Community Action Required] Re: Pete ousted?
Posted by Huw Roberts <hu...@apache.org>.
I think it is detrimental to the community as a whole to have a user
suspended, removed or otherwise punished without some indication, made
to the community at large, of the reason. It is not strictly a private
matter between a governance board and a member, it affects us all. To
put it another way, some degree of transparency is required for the
functioning of the community, and I feel this missing right now.
- Huw Roberts
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Re: [User Community Action Required] Re: Pete ousted?
Posted by Peter Royal <pr...@apache.org>.
On Wednesday, November 20, 2002, at 04:54 PM, Paul Hammant wrote:
> 1) Power's that be: Please let me appeal on Peter's behalf
> and ask if you may see fit to look past this current episode.
I think the "powers that be" don't want to have to be known by that
hierarchy-sounding word (after the long discussion the other night at
the apache town mtg @ apachecon). From offline discussions, I believe
it is more than "this current episode"
> 2) I use Peter's projects in my open source / proprietary /
> commercial applications.
I do to. Many people do. But as I've come to have a much greater
realization of in the past few days, Apache is about /FAR/ more than
just code. The community surrounding the code is priority 1.
> 3) I have been helped by Peter in the past. I found his help very
> useful.
All of my interactions with Peter have been very positive. I don't have
anything derogatory to say about the man.
> 4) Please let Peter return to his projects at Apache, he's not so bad.
My impression is that *THE ONLY THING* that Peter didn't do well enough
was "playing well (enough) with others". Peter is /such/ a fountain of
code, that it could be very difficult at times to be on equal footings.
Peter would appear to dominate projects that he's involved in, to the
detriment of building a community (at times). I *KNOW* that if any of
us were to sit down with him and have a face-to-face discussion, things
could be easily resolved. Email is just a very difficult medium at
times since you miss so much that is conveyed non-verbally when
discussing in person.
Peter, please remain. There are many of us that are able to work with
you. That _want_ to work with you.
-pete
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peter royal -> proyal@apache.org
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Re: [User Community Action Required] Re: Pete ousted?
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
In article <20...@expresso.localdomain>, "Jeff Turner"
<je...@apache.org> wrote:
>...
> In most societies, a "perception" (to quote Sam) of wrong-doing is not
> sufficient to convict someone of a crime,
The Board's action would have been great to avoid, but we (the Board) did
not feel that would have been healthy for the ASF. Our Monday meeting was
definitely the longest meeting that I've ever attended (1.5 yrs since I've
been a director), and that length was partly due to our discussions about
Mr Donald. It was not done on a whim, and it was not done on "perception".
> and justice does not take
> place behind closed doors. Apache has rules: if rules were broken, why
> not make the evidence public?
Out of respect for Peter.
In my opinion, this is a *very* personal issue, and I *don't* think the
public has the right to participate. People's support for Peter is
definitely noted and welcome, but "dirty laundry", if you will, is
absolutely something to keep out of the public discourse.
The best thing to do is to encourage Peter to continue his participation
and to work with him in that. The Board has not suspended his right to
participate, so that requires our helping hand to encourage him to do so.
Cheers,
-g
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gstein@apache.org ... ASF Chairman ... http://www.apache.org/
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Re: [User Community Action Required] Re: Pete ousted?
Posted by Jeff Turner <je...@apache.org>.
On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 01:09:05AM -0500, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Peter,
>
> We have been clearly informed by the ASF Chairman that we do not know the
> reason for their decision and, as reinforced by Sam Ruby's note, the only
> person morally entitled to provide that information would be Peter at his
> discretion, because the ASF Board is quite properly not going to do so.
In most societies, a "perception" (to quote Sam) of wrong-doing is not
sufficient to convict someone of a crime, and justice does not take place
behind closed doors. Apache has rules: if rules were broken, why not
make the evidence public?
If the charge is "antisocial behaviour", then let the committers and PMC
of the relevant projects do the ejecting. It is a project-level issue,
and certainly nothing that a bunch of relative strangers (Sam excepted)
have any moral right to make proclamations on.
If the board has any role here, it is to facilitate the process whereby
PMCs can eject troublesome committers. I would suggest instituting a PMC
voting system. Someone puts forward a vote, "should committer X be
ejected", each PMC member votes (votes remain private), and the PMC and
board go by that decision.
Since Peter has been deemed "troublesome", how about implementing this
process in reverse: each PMC member votes (privately) whether to re-admit
him as committer. It seems the fairest way out of the current unresolved
mess, respecting both the board's decision and projects' whom the board
is supposed to represent.
--Jeff
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Re: [User Community Action Required] Re: Pete ousted?
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
>> Peter,
>>
>> We have been clearly informed by the ASF Chairman that we do not know
>> the
>> reason for their decision and, as reinforced by Sam Ruby's note, the
>> only
>> person morally entitled to provide that information would be Peter at
>> his
>> discretion, because the ASF Board is quite properly not going to do so.
>>
>> Clearly the real issues are things that no one here is privy to, and
>> the ASF
>> Board is not going to be (nor should it be) swayed by people (us) who
>> apparently really don't know the facts. Given that situation, it seems
>> rather foolish to do anything other than let Peter know that his
>> participation is valued.
>
>
> Peter, you know that we all value you, and I want to tell you again.
> Even in the most fierce discussions, I have told you and retold you
> how much I value you, and I've heard only really respectful comments
> on you from all Avalon committers, none barred.
>
> Please remember that you are always welcome here, and we want you back
> ASAP.
>
> The Avalon community is not the same without you.
+1
--
Stephen J. McConnell
OSM SARL
digital products for a global economy
mailto:mcconnell@osm.net
http://www.osm.net
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RE: [User Community Action Required] Re: Pete ousted?
Posted by Carsten Ziegeler <cz...@s-und-n.de>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
> Peter, you know that we all value you, and I want to tell you again.
> Even in the most fierce discussions, I have told you and retold you how
> much I value you, and I've heard only really respectful comments on you
> from all Avalon committers, none barred.
>
> Please remember that you are always welcome here, and we want you
> back ASAP.
>
> The Avalon community is not the same without you.
>
In lack of a good english, I can only add my total agreement with the above
or putting it in other means:
+10
Carsten
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Re: [User Community Action Required] Re: Pete ousted?
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Peter,
>
> We have been clearly informed by the ASF Chairman that we do not know the
> reason for their decision and, as reinforced by Sam Ruby's note, the only
> person morally entitled to provide that information would be Peter at his
> discretion, because the ASF Board is quite properly not going to do so.
>
> Clearly the real issues are things that no one here is privy to, and the ASF
> Board is not going to be (nor should it be) swayed by people (us) who
> apparently really don't know the facts. Given that situation, it seems
> rather foolish to do anything other than let Peter know that his
> participation is valued.
Peter, you know that we all value you, and I want to tell you again.
Even in the most fierce discussions, I have told you and retold you how
much I value you, and I've heard only really respectful comments on you
from all Avalon committers, none barred.
Please remember that you are always welcome here, and we want you back ASAP.
The Avalon community is not the same without you.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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RE: [User Community Action Required] Re: Pete ousted?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Peter,
We have been clearly informed by the ASF Chairman that we do not know the
reason for their decision and, as reinforced by Sam Ruby's note, the only
person morally entitled to provide that information would be Peter at his
discretion, because the ASF Board is quite properly not going to do so.
Clearly the real issues are things that no one here is privy to, and the ASF
Board is not going to be (nor should it be) swayed by people (us) who
apparently really don't know the facts. Given that situation, it seems
rather foolish to do anything other than let Peter know that his
participation is valued.
--- Noel
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RE: [User Community Action Required] Re: Pete ousted?
Posted by "Peter M. Goldstein" <pe...@yahoo.com>.
All,
> 1) Powers that be: Please let me appeal on Peter's behalf
> and ask if you may see fit to look past this current episode.
+1. See my comments below.
> 2) I use Peter's projects in my open source / proprietary /
> commercial applications.
+1. The James standard distribution runs on Phoenix.
> 3) I have been helped by Peter in the past. I found his help very
useful.
+1. Certainly true, he's very helpful to Avalon Phoenix newbies, myself
included.
> 4) Please let Peter return to his projects at Apache, he's not so bad.
+1.
I will concur with these more specifically. In my reading of the Avalon
dev list over the last six months I've seen a variety of behavior from a
number of parties that I think was inappropriate. Peter Donald was no
more and no less responsible than a number of the other parties. I'm
not sure why he's being singled out in this fashion.
I am willing to believe that this suspension took place because of
issues outside the domain of the Avalon-dev list. If so, I can't
comment in any detail as I don't know the motivating issues. But if
that is not the case, I would urge the Apache board to reconsider their
action. I do hate to see a talented and dedicated developer be
consigned to the wilderness, even if only temporarily. Peter D.'s
passion is a virtue, even if it has occasionally contributed to
interpersonal contention on the list. And I hope that, whatever the
board's decision, Peter D. understands that the community as a whole
values his contributions immensely.
--Peter
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[User Community Action Required] Re: Pete ousted?
Posted by Paul Hammant <Pa...@yahoo.com>.
Following on from Peter's posting and Sam Ruby's fair reply, I thought
I'd go public too...
Peter,
My heart bleeds for you dude. I have been with this project for years,
I know what you have put in. You have always been direct/assertive with
what you felt to be true, and many people understood that to be
aggression, which is wrong. Many of us including me are very keen for
your return. Even when the worst things were said about you, you
maintained a level tone. You held all in high-esteem, and never (well
99.99% of the time) resorted to low blows or insults. Your character
and dedication is fantastic, we all miss you here at Avalon. That's all
of us...
With the wisdom of the power's that be, a favourable wind, and some
positive advocacy from us & those you have helped over the years when
there was no need for you to get involved (and the rest of us were too
tired), you will hopefully be back /inside/ of the period allotted.
Avalon and Apache is simply not complete without you.
Can all those that use Peter's works in open source and want his swift
return to the projects he loves please reply to this email with the
following section modified as appropriate:
*---------------------------------------------------------------------
1) Power's that be: Please let me appeal on Peter's behalf
and ask if you may see fit to look past this current episode.
2) I use Peter's projects in my open source / proprietary /
commercial applications.
3) I have been helped by Peter in the past. I found his help very useful.
4) Please let Peter return to his projects at Apache, he's not so bad.
*----------------------------------------------------------------------
Please also spread the word, and get as many people as possible to reply
to this - Committers, Users, Visitors, Luminaries...
We'll also work on a http://jakarta.apache.org/site/peter.html page
right? A guide to what makes the man tick. This suggestion may be
cryptic to many ;-)
- Paul
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RE: Pete ousted?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Peter,
Please finish reading the rest of your mail.
No one wants you to leave. People value your contributions, and want them
to continue. What cannot continue is a rancorous climate that damages the
community. The board took other steps to help heal the community. My
immediate concern was that one of the actions might send a message that
didn't necessarily contribute to the health of the community. Greg Stein
indicated, in his reply that he suggested be made public, that "Peter was
not singled out for his problems within Avalon." He also stated that other
people in the Avalon community were likewise contacted about their own
behavior. What the decision regarding your account WAS based upon, I don't
know. Nor am I'm not going to pry further since it wouldn't be any of my
business, but if you really don't know and want to know, I am sure that you
can discuss it with the ASF Board.
With respect to the Avalon community, I don't think that you have been
"ousted", as you put it. Personally, I have already made comments that as
people refocus on the technical issues at hand, that your voice is missing
and needs to be represented.
> I have also spent a considerable effort to get more people involved in
Avalon.
If you want a measure of your success in getting people involved in Avalon,
one point to take home is that this project is important enough for the
board to take considerable steps to protect and rejuvenate its community.
Some people, such as myself, are here not because we work on this project,
but because we depend upon it. You have succeeded.
> Not once have I consciously gone out to harm Avalon and yet here we are. I
> have been judged unworth from those on high. It seems unlikely that I will
> change and thus unlikely that I will be allowed back.
Again, they say that it is not based upon Avalon, intended to be temporary,
and that they very much want to address the private matters that led to the
decision. You, yourself, say that you want to work on Avalon and that you
want to cooperate and continue to grow the platform. So it seems to me that
it is up to you to please continue your valued and desired contributions,
and to resolve whatever other issues with the ASF Board as a separate
matter.
Your cordial & productive presence & input is wanted and specifically
requested. Your loss would be deeply felt. The ball seems to be in your
court.
--- Noel
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