My response to Matt Raible's presentation at Devoxx 2010

[Igor Drobiazko <ig...@gmail.com>]

Hi all,

some of us were kind of shocked by Tapestry grades in Matt Raible's
presentation at Devoxx 2010. I feel like a public answer is needed. Here is
my response to Matt:

http://blog.tapestry5.de/index.php/2010/11/21/response-to-matt-raibles-presentation-at-devoxx-2010/

-- 
Best regards,

Igor Drobiazko
http://tapestry5.de

Re: My response to Matt Raible's presentation at Devoxx 2010

[Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>]

Katia,

I'm neither obsessed with ATG or Oracle, nor with SpringSource and their
products (as some may feel a little bit about Matt's ranking [?]) just
putting some of the more "Vertical" or Business capable examples into a much
smaller list, than he did there with a whole lot of different frameworks
both in- and outside the browser.

If you'd claim anything I was especially interested in, that "Domain Driven"
or "Vertical" aspect of some frameworks is clearly among them. I help shape
some framworks or base libraries even the "darlings" like Grails or Spring
like to use sometimes, and some of them are likely to get a slightly wider
use from Java 7 onwards...

Werner

On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 10:57 PM, Katia Aresti <ka...@gmail.com>wrote:

> @Werner :
>
> It might be a matter of my low English level, but I can't even understand
> the half of your thoughts. Moreover, I still don't get your obsession with
> ATG, which is a commercial product not a framework and which has a very very
> very expensive license.
> But It doesn't matter, I quit this pointless discussion with this last
> sentence:
> maybe you are right and I will come back to ATG product one day, with
> glassfish or maybe *Wickestry IoC*.
> However, what I really hope is to come back to real world Tapestry 5 actual
> work :)
>
> Katia
>
> 2010/11/22 Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>
>
> Back to the DevoXX discussion, it has clearly lost some momentum now, that
>> JavaOne was moved to the Sep/Oct timeslot, and DevoXX itself was even
>> shifted almost a month itself. While even the announcements and great news
>> of last year (Java getting Closures[?]) were not as close to becoming
>> reality as it then may have sounded, everything discussed or presented this
>> year on Java was only the aftermath of JavaOne. The JSRs being out just this
>> week probably being the only "gossip" for the bloggers and "Parvez Hiltons"
>> of the Java Community who have gathered there much more than on JavaOne or
>> other conferences by the vendors itself.
>>
>> Guess Matt has moved himself a step closer to such "Parvenism" with that
>> presentation ?[?]
>>
>
>

Re: My response to Matt Raible's presentation at Devoxx 2010

[Katia Aresti <ka...@gmail.com>]

@Werner :

It might be a matter of my low English level, but I can't even understand
the half of your thoughts. Moreover, I still don't get your obsession with
ATG, which is a commercial product not a framework and which has a very very
very expensive license.
But It doesn't matter, I quit this pointless discussion with this last
sentence:
maybe you are right and I will come back to ATG product one day, with
glassfish or maybe *Wickestry IoC*.
However, what I really hope is to come back to real world Tapestry 5 actual
work :)

Katia

2010/11/22 Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>

> Back to the DevoXX discussion, it has clearly lost some momentum now, that
> JavaOne was moved to the Sep/Oct timeslot, and DevoXX itself was even
> shifted almost a month itself. While even the announcements and great news
> of last year (Java getting Closures[?]) were not as close to becoming
> reality as it then may have sounded, everything discussed or presented this
> year on Java was only the aftermath of JavaOne. The JSRs being out just this
> week probably being the only "gossip" for the bloggers and "Parvez Hiltons"
> of the Java Community who have gathered there much more than on JavaOne or
> other conferences by the vendors itself.
>
> Guess Matt has moved himself a step closer to such "Parvenism" with that
> presentation ?[?]
>

Re: My response to Matt Raible's presentation at Devoxx 2010

[Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>]

Back to the DevoXX discussion, it has clearly lost some momentum now, that
JavaOne was moved to the Sep/Oct timeslot, and DevoXX itself was even
shifted almost a month itself. While even the announcements and great news
of last year (Java getting Closures[?]) were not as close to becoming reality
as it then may have sounded, everything discussed or presented this year on
Java was only the aftermath of JavaOne. The JSRs being out just this week
probably being the only "gossip" for the bloggers and "Parvez Hiltons" of
the Java Community who have gathered there much more than on JavaOne or
other conferences by the vendors itself.

Guess Matt has moved himself a step closer to such "Parvenism" with that
presentation ?[?]

Re: My response to Matt Raible's presentation at Devoxx 2010

[Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>]

Thanks for sharing those.

>From the "complete stack" point of view, it clearly exceeds Tapestry, Spring
MVC, Seam and most others, but given the aggressive product policy
SpringSource/vmware follows with almost everything wrapped in Spring now
(yesterday Social Networking, today Android) they have alternatives (most of
them Open Source) to many of these components.

Which is most likely, why Oracle bolstered up its "arsenal". Although they
have other alternatives and who knows, some day we might even see ATG
running on Glassfish [?]

On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 5:10 AM, Katia Aresti <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I know ATG, I worked with the product for a couple of years, I didn't know
> oracle purchased ATG.
>
> You can not compare ATG with any other fw described by Matt Raidle, neither
> Tapestry at all. ATG is a full stack e-commerce solution, portal,
> publishing. And not opensource at all, but J2EE standard. There is no point
> comparing with Spring fw either.
>
> ATG is not a webframework, it is built in in his own webframework, own IoC,
> own ORM etc ... They even had their own application server, but they moved
> to weblogic. All that in order to provide the real functionality you pay
> for
> : the way to develop really big e-commerce sites.
>
> well, this is another discussion, it does not really belong to this thread.
>
> Katia
>
>
> 2010/11/21 Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>
>
> > ATG Web Framework, a commercial solution from a company just purchased by
> > Oracle.
> >
> > Some of its features were described as superior to Spring Framework,
> which
> > its stakeholders clearly deny.
> >
> > It is not Open Source, but others, especially Seam are.
> >
>

Re: My response to Matt Raible's presentation at Devoxx 2010

[Katia Aresti <ka...@gmail.com>]

I know ATG, I worked with the product for a couple of years, I didn't know
oracle purchased ATG.

You can not compare ATG with any other fw described by Matt Raidle, neither
Tapestry at all. ATG is a full stack e-commerce solution, portal,
publishing. And not opensource at all, but J2EE standard. There is no point
comparing with Spring fw either.

ATG is not a webframework, it is built in in his own webframework, own IoC,
own ORM etc ... They even had their own application server, but they moved
to weblogic. All that in order to provide the real functionality you pay for
: the way to develop really big e-commerce sites.

well, this is another discussion, it does not really belong to this thread.

Katia


2010/11/21 Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>

> ATG Web Framework, a commercial solution from a company just purchased by
> Oracle.
>
> Some of its features were described as superior to Spring Framework, which
> its stakeholders clearly deny.
>
> It is not Open Source, but others, especially Seam are.
>

Re: My response to Matt Raible's presentation at Devoxx 2010

[Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>]

ATG Web Framework, a commercial solution from a company just purchased by
Oracle.

Some of its features were described as superior to Spring Framework, which
its stakeholders clearly deny.

It is not Open Source, but others, especially Seam are.

Re: My response to Matt Raible's presentation at Devoxx 2010

[Katia Aresti <ka...@gmail.com>]

2010/11/21 Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>

> It got more than JSF [?]
>
> Although Oracle was to some extent present, since it was forced to change
> its name from JavaPolis, DevoXX hasn't been quite the same any more. While
> still called JavaPolis I noticed, the rather aggressive style of a Rails
> speaker, and it may not bee too surprising, All the (G)Rails & Co. style
> frameworks beside GWT and Spring were ranked higher here, too. Indeed, I
> only was asked to help one really large Tapestry project so far, but at
> least that one's for one of the largest *telcos *in the world [?] Competing
> only with *ATG*, the framework now taken over by Oracle. That is a move,
> Matt and others may not have considered at all, but the message behind it is
> clearly to compete with most of those listed here and vendors like vmware or
> Red Hat.
>

what do you mean with ATG here ? I don't understand.

>
> Btw, *Seam *was also not there, and putting a client-side solution like
> Flex together with more server-side ones including Tapestry is also a bit of
> Apples mixed with Pares.
>

Re: My response to Matt Raible's presentation at Devoxx 2010

[Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>]

It got more than JSF [?]

Although Oracle was to some extent present, since it was forced to change
its name from JavaPolis, DevoXX hasn't been quite the same any more. While
still called JavaPolis I noticed, the rather aggressive style of a Rails
speaker, and it may not bee too surprising, All the (G)Rails & Co. style
frameworks beside GWT and Spring were ranked higher here, too. Indeed, I
only was asked to help one really large Tapestry project so far, but at
least that one's for one of the largest *telcos *in the world [?] Competing
only with *ATG*, the framework now taken over by Oracle. That is a move,
Matt and others may not have considered at all, but the message behind it is
clearly to compete with most of those listed here and vendors like vmware or
Red Hat.

Btw, *Seam *was also not there, and putting a client-side solution like Flex
together with more server-side ones including Tapestry is also a bit of
Apples mixed with Pares.