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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> on 2003/01/06 00:33:00 UTC
[VOTE] Mother may I (was: Re: [Tapestry-contrib] Re: Tapestry?)
>
>
> Somebody has to speak for the rest of the incubator. Part of the problem
> that has happened is that everybody is waiting for everybody else to state
> that consensus is reached. As a result, it never appears that consensus is
> present, so nobody attempts to do anything.
>
> IMO, the first step in the Incubator process should be "name a shepherd".
> That person can then drive the acquisition of votes when needed, start
> following the necessary legal checklists, perform/request the infrastructure
> bits, and then the group can get down to the actual Apache Way Brainwashing.
>
The tapestry community is certfied by my to have been brainwashed as to
meritocracy, consenus, voting rules. Evidence is apparent in their
mailing list archive for the last few months. You'll see a consistant
pattern of voting and community based decion making.
<joke requestedaction="laugh,smirk,ignore">
I didn't teach them how to have a wicked flame war and fillibuster but
I'm sure they'll figure that out on their own.
</joke>
May I:
1. Get the snapshot from howard,
2. import it,
3. ask the infrastructure to make the entries,
4. request the appropriate mailing lists
5. ask the developers to all send me requested account names which I
will munge if already taken
6. create the website (under jakarta.apache.org/proposals/incubator with
a redirected link from jakarta.apache.org/incubator to save poor
confused users like me from having to think real hard)
7. work with Sam (whom I'm assuming will help me) to get tapestry
building under Gump and the site updating from Gump
8. Work with howard to import the wiki (if they want) via some means
(whatever requires the least effort and produces the maximum outcome)
9. Graciously Accept help from anyone else who wants to help.
Please signify
[ ] +1
[ ] +0
[ ] -0 [why?]
[ ] -1 [why?]
Thanks,
Andy
> Cheers,
> -g
>
Re: mailing list organizatoin
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Sun, Jan 05, 2003 at 09:32:18PM -0800, Aaron Bannert wrote:
> No, this does not belong on the community mailing list. If you
> are interested in helping foster new projects, and have opinions
> on how things like mailing lists should be formed, then join
> the incubator list.
You bet! +1 to that.
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
Re: mailing list organizatoin
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Sun, Jan 05, 2003 at 09:32:18PM -0800, Aaron Bannert wrote:
> No, this does not belong on the community mailing list. If you
> are interested in helping foster new projects, and have opinions
> on how things like mailing lists should be formed, then join
> the incubator list.
You bet! +1 to that.
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
Re: mailing list organizatoin (was: [VOTE] Mother may I)
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
No, this does not belong on the community mailing list. If you
are interested in helping foster new projects, and have opinions
on how things like mailing lists should be formed, then join
the incubator list.
-aaron
On Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 08:52 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>
>> +1
>> (There is a lot of this kind of experience and knowledge hanging
>> around in the backs of many of your heads -- we should write it down!)
>
> ccing community as I think we're moving sufficiently off course that
> its
> best discussed there.
Re: mailing list organizatoin (was: [VOTE] Mother may I)
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
No, this does not belong on the community mailing list. If you
are interested in helping foster new projects, and have opinions
on how things like mailing lists should be formed, then join
the incubator list.
-aaron
On Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 08:52 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>
>> +1
>> (There is a lot of this kind of experience and knowledge hanging
>> around in the backs of many of your heads -- we should write it down!)
>
> ccing community as I think we're moving sufficiently off course that
> its
> best discussed there.
Re: mailing list organizatoin (was: [VOTE] Mother may I)
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>
>
> +1
>
> (There is a lot of this kind of experience and knowledge hanging
> around in the backs of many of your heads -- we should write it down!)
>
ccing community as I think we're moving sufficiently off course that its
best discussed there.
Started it:
http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?MailListBestPractices
Anyone who wishes to participate please feel free to edit this page.
Once it becomes useful I'll create a more formal page.
-Andy
> -aaron
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: mailing list organizatoin (was: [VOTE] Mother may I)
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>
>
> +1
>
> (There is a lot of this kind of experience and knowledge hanging
> around in the backs of many of your heads -- we should write it down!)
>
ccing community as I think we're moving sufficiently off course that its
best discussed there.
Started it:
http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?MailListBestPractices
Anyone who wishes to participate please feel free to edit this page.
Once it becomes useful I'll create a more formal page.
-Andy
> -aaron
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: mailing list organizatoin (was: [VOTE] Mother may I)
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
On Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 07:56 PM, Greg Stein wrote:
> Personally, I prefer the separation, and for keeping the users on the
> developer's list. Separating the user/dev lists makes it too easy for
> the
> developers to become detached from their actual users. Thus, placing
> the
> commits elsewhere is good for the casual mailing list subscriber (since
> "everybody" is on the single user/dev list).
>
> The single user/dev mailing list is *especially* important when a
> project
> first starts up. During that time period, it is very important to be
> close
> to the early adopters -- they'll have great feedback and will want to
> know
> what is going on with the project. It is only when a project is very
> mature
> that it becomes at all interesting to separate the two.
+1
(There is a lot of this kind of experience and knowledge hanging
around in the backs of many of your heads -- we should write it down!)
-aaron
Re: mailing list organization
Posted by Ben Hyde <bh...@pobox.com>.
On Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 10:56 PM, Greg Stein wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 05, 2003 at 08:36:21PM -0500, Ben Hyde wrote:
>> Sam Ruby wrote:
>>> The proposal suggests a separate cvs mailing list. My recommendation
>>> is that cvs mail be directed to the -dev list. This accomplishes ...
>>
>> +1
>>
>> The separation of cvs@ and dev@ in httpd is before my time, I'd be
>> fascinated to hear stories about it. - ben
In my experience it's surprising how many committers aren't on any
given CVS mailing list. Pushing them together forces developers to
behave like I think they should - what could possibly be wrong with
that :-).
> Personally, I prefer the separation, and for keeping the users on the
> developer's list.
The CVS mailing list in the face of the developers is good because they
get to observe the code in pain. The user mailing list in the face of
the developers is good because they get to observe the users in pain.
:-)
I like to cling to the fantasy that developers are primarily users and
they have come to the project to coordinate with other developer-users
to solve a common problem. As that fantasy become more and more bogus
some scheme to increase the chance developers get a taste of the user's
pain is a good thing.
I like to cling to the fantasy that developers feel it's part of the
job to know enough about all the code in their project that they can
and in fact would be frightened not to keep an eye on every commit.
Sadly I know from experience that a surprisingly low percentage of
developers actually are on the cvs lists. That maybe just the lack of
clear instructions and reminders - something the incubator can help
with.
> I've been using and liking this model for a long while now.
I doubt there is a 'best practice' (what a pompus term that is!) here;
or if there is then it maybe complex to state... maybe something like:
- The vast majority of people involved with editing (or even
understanding)
the code should be on the relevant CVS lists. Many points of view
are
a big help in guarding code quality and capturing easy enhancements.
- You have to be on the dev list if you want to have a voice in how the
code evolves; users may find it useful to lurk on that list.
- ... I don't know exactly what to say about the user list that is
likely to get follow thru for a large user base.
mailing list organizatoin (was: [VOTE] Mother may I)
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Sun, Jan 05, 2003 at 08:36:21PM -0500, Ben Hyde wrote:
> Sam Ruby wrote:
> > The proposal suggests a separate cvs mailing list. My recommendation
> > is that cvs mail be directed to the -dev list. This accomplishes ...
>
> +1
>
> The separation of cvs@ and dev@ in httpd is before my time, I'd be
> fascinated to hear stories about it. - ben
Personally, I prefer the separation, and for keeping the users on the
developer's list. Separating the user/dev lists makes it too easy for the
developers to become detached from their actual users. Thus, placing the
commits elsewhere is good for the casual mailing list subscriber (since
"everybody" is on the single user/dev list).
The single user/dev mailing list is *especially* important when a project
first starts up. During that time period, it is very important to be close
to the early adopters -- they'll have great feedback and will want to know
what is going on with the project. It is only when a project is very mature
that it becomes at all interesting to separate the two.
I've been using and liking this model for a long while now.
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
Re: [VOTE] Mother may I (was: Re: [Tapestry-contrib] Re: Tapestry?)
Posted by Ben Hyde <bh...@pobox.com>.
Sam Ruby wrote:
> The proposal suggests a separate cvs mailing list. My recommendation
> is that cvs mail be directed to the -dev list. This accomplishes ...
+1
The separation of cvs@ and dev@ in httpd is before my time, I'd be
fascinated to hear stories about it. - ben
Re: please signify Mail list preference WAS: Re: [VOTE] Mother may I (was: Re: [Tapestry-contrib] Re: Tapestry?)
Posted by "Howard M. Lewis Ship" <hl...@attbi.com>.
My preference is to keep the cvs messages separate but, since I monitor both
lists anyway, its no difference to me either way.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>
To: <ge...@incubator.apache.org>; <ta...@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 8:58 PM
Subject: please signify Mail list preference WAS: Re: [VOTE] Mother may I
(was: Re: [Tapestry-contrib] Re: Tapestry?)
> >
> > The proposal suggests a separate cvs mailing list. My recommendation is
> > that cvs mail be directed to the -dev list. This accomplishes two
things:
> >
> > 1) causes more -dev's to actually be exposed to each change. Or, at a
> > minimum, it eliminates an excuse. ;-)
> >
>
> I agree. This is how POI-dev opperates and it works quite well for us.
>
> > 2) keep -user's on the -user mailing list. Many users are smart, and
> > realize that the devs hang out on the dev list. I've actually had
> > requests from users to stop sending cvs email as they weren't devs. The
> > response was simple. ;-)
> >
>
> I agree, I quickly ask power users who start falling down the developer
> Cool I'll ask which they prefertrail to join the dev list....might as
> well push em ;-)
>
> > Both are personal recommendations, and by no means a requirement. How
> > the lists are to be configured is up to the direct participants.
> >
>
> Cool I'll ask which they prefer. Guys... What do you prefer?
>
> >> 7. work with Sam (whom I'm assuming will help me) to get tapestry
> >> building under Gump and the site updating from Gump
> >
> >
> > You can safely assume this.
> >
>
> :-) Why thank you Mr. Ruby.
>
> -Andy
>
> > - Sam Ruby
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
please signify Mail list preference WAS: Re: [VOTE] Mother may I
(was: Re: [Tapestry-contrib] Re: Tapestry?)
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>
> The proposal suggests a separate cvs mailing list. My recommendation is
> that cvs mail be directed to the -dev list. This accomplishes two things:
>
> 1) causes more -dev's to actually be exposed to each change. Or, at a
> minimum, it eliminates an excuse. ;-)
>
I agree. This is how POI-dev opperates and it works quite well for us.
> 2) keep -user's on the -user mailing list. Many users are smart, and
> realize that the devs hang out on the dev list. I've actually had
> requests from users to stop sending cvs email as they weren't devs. The
> response was simple. ;-)
>
I agree, I quickly ask power users who start falling down the developer
Cool I'll ask which they prefertrail to join the dev list....might as
well push em ;-)
> Both are personal recommendations, and by no means a requirement. How
> the lists are to be configured is up to the direct participants.
>
Cool I'll ask which they prefer. Guys... What do you prefer?
>> 7. work with Sam (whom I'm assuming will help me) to get tapestry
>> building under Gump and the site updating from Gump
>
>
> You can safely assume this.
>
:-) Why thank you Mr. Ruby.
-Andy
> - Sam Ruby
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: [VOTE] Mother may I (was: Re: [Tapestry-contrib] Re: Tapestry?)
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> 2. import it,
> 3. ask the infrastructure to make the entries,
> 4. request the appropriate mailing lists
2,3, and 4 require cvsadmin privs on icarus, karma on CVSROOT, and
qmlist privs on nagoya. I can handle all of this.
One question in advance on #4, and I will choose to ask it publically here.
The proposal suggests a separate cvs mailing list. My recommendation is
that cvs mail be directed to the -dev list. This accomplishes two things:
1) causes more -dev's to actually be exposed to each change. Or, at a
minimum, it eliminates an excuse. ;-)
2) keep -user's on the -user mailing list. Many users are smart, and
realize that the devs hang out on the dev list. I've actually had
requests from users to stop sending cvs email as they weren't devs. The
response was simple. ;-)
Both are personal recommendations, and by no means a requirement. How
the lists are to be configured is up to the direct participants.
> 7. work with Sam (whom I'm assuming will help me) to get tapestry
> building under Gump and the site updating from Gump
You can safely assume this.
- Sam Ruby
Re: [VOTE] Mother may I (was: Re: [Tapestry-contrib] Re: Tapestry?)
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
[...]
> Please signify
> [+1] +1
> [ ] +0
> [ ] -0 [why?]
> [ ] -1 [why?]
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [VOTE] Mother may I (was: Re: [Tapestry-contrib] Re: Tapestry?)
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
> All the above can be wiped out in seconds upon request.
>
> Andy, dIon, please don't proceed futher until this vote is complete.
>
I'm going ahead and gathering the account names and email addresses for
the request to root and planning out things like wiki imports (how we
plan to do it without taking the action) with howard and the gang. No
harm no foul and it keeps me sane...
Action is cool.
-Andy
> - Sam Ruby
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: [VOTE] Mother may I (was: Re: [Tapestry-contrib] Re: Tapestry?)
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
Brian Behlendorf wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Jan 2003, Sam Ruby wrote:
>
>>To help facilitate this (as in, eliminating critical path items), I went
>>ahead and created an *EMPTY* cvs repository, granted karma to acoliver
>>and dion *ONLY*, and created the dev and user mailing list (a separate
>>cvs mailing list will be created if that is desired outcome) with
>>acoliver@apache.org as the initial moderator to both.
>
>
> Make sure you create a tapestry-cvs@jakarta.apache.org alias forwarding to
> the dev list, too.
>
> BTW, one of the concerns I had about the incubator project was that
> projects would be rooted at "incubator", e.g. the CVS repos would be
> "/home/cvs/incubator-$project", the dev list at
> $project-dev@incubator.apache.org, etc - and this would mean a lot of name
> changing when a project moved out of the project. However, you've set
> this up so it's essentially inside the Jakarta project already. That's a
> nice way of avoiding the rename problem since we know where Tapestry would
> go (discussion about making it a top-level project notwithstanding), but
> is this a good pattern to set for the future?
>
I think for *accepting* projects that have a clear path of promotion.
Yes. If someone was starting a project in the incubator... no. If the
incubator accepted something that didn't have a clear path to promotion,
probably not (then again, why wouldn't that go in commons?).
-Andy
> Brian
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: [VOTE] Mother may I (was: Re: [Tapestry-contrib] Re: Tapestry?)
Posted by Conor MacNeill <co...@cortexebusiness.com.au>.
Sam Ruby wrote:
> I can all be
> wiped out in seconds.
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
Only in the surf Sam :-)
Conor
Re: [VOTE] Mother may I (was: Re: [Tapestry-contrib] Re: Tapestry?)
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Brian Behlendorf wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Jan 2003, Sam Ruby wrote:
>
>>To help facilitate this (as in, eliminating critical path items), I went
>>ahead and created an *EMPTY* cvs repository, granted karma to acoliver
>>and dion *ONLY*, and created the dev and user mailing list (a separate
>>cvs mailing list will be created if that is desired outcome) with
>>acoliver@apache.org as the initial moderator to both.
>
> Make sure you create a tapestry-cvs@jakarta.apache.org alias forwarding to
> the dev list, too.
Think I was born yesterday? ;-)
> -rw-rw-r-- 1 qmlist qmlist 33 Jan 5 18:36 .qmail-jakarta-tapestry-cvs
Note the timestamp (yes, I could easily forge that, but I didn't). I
didn't mention it because where the cvs messages go is still under
discussion, and didn't want to mention that I set it up the way I (and
perhaps apparently you?) think it ought to be done. ;-)
> BTW, one of the concerns I had about the incubator project was that
> projects would be rooted at "incubator", e.g. the CVS repos would be
> "/home/cvs/incubator-$project", the dev list at
> $project-dev@incubator.apache.org, etc - and this would mean a lot of name
> changing when a project moved out of the project. However, you've set
> this up so it's essentially inside the Jakarta project already. That's a
> nice way of avoiding the rename problem since we know where Tapestry would
> go (discussion about making it a top-level project notwithstanding), but
> is this a good pattern to set for the future?
Suggestions?
Sometimes the best way to focus discussion is to take concrete action.
I was merely cueing off of (1) Ken's note that the only obstacles that
remained were technical todos, (2) the tapestry proposal itself, and (3)
the string of +1 votes that came in yesterday, in particular the one
Sander Striker - his vote was clearly not an automatic +1, but an
indication that that his concerns either have been, or are well on their
way towards being, addressed.
Anyway, it took only a few minutes to set up what I did. I can all be
wiped out in seconds.
- Sam Ruby
Re: [VOTE] Mother may I (was: Re: [Tapestry-contrib] Re: Tapestry?)
Posted by Brian Behlendorf <br...@collab.net>.
On Sun, 5 Jan 2003, Sam Ruby wrote:
> To help facilitate this (as in, eliminating critical path items), I went
> ahead and created an *EMPTY* cvs repository, granted karma to acoliver
> and dion *ONLY*, and created the dev and user mailing list (a separate
> cvs mailing list will be created if that is desired outcome) with
> acoliver@apache.org as the initial moderator to both.
Make sure you create a tapestry-cvs@jakarta.apache.org alias forwarding to
the dev list, too.
BTW, one of the concerns I had about the incubator project was that
projects would be rooted at "incubator", e.g. the CVS repos would be
"/home/cvs/incubator-$project", the dev list at
$project-dev@incubator.apache.org, etc - and this would mean a lot of name
changing when a project moved out of the project. However, you've set
this up so it's essentially inside the Jakarta project already. That's a
nice way of avoiding the rename problem since we know where Tapestry would
go (discussion about making it a top-level project notwithstanding), but
is this a good pattern to set for the future?
Brian
Re: [VOTE] Mother may I (was: Re: [Tapestry-contrib] Re: Tapestry?)
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>
> May I:
>
> 1. Get the snapshot from howard,
> 2. import it,
> 3. ask the infrastructure to make the entries,
> 4. request the appropriate mailing lists
To help facilitate this (as in, eliminating critical path items), I went
ahead and created an *EMPTY* cvs repository, granted karma to acoliver
and dion *ONLY*, and created the dev and user mailing list (a separate
cvs mailing list will be created if that is desired outcome) with
acoliver@apache.org as the initial moderator to both.
All the above can be wiped out in seconds upon request.
Andy, dIon, please don't proceed futher until this vote is complete.
- Sam Ruby
RE: [VOTE] Mother may I (was: Re: [Tapestry-contrib] Re: Tapestry?)
Posted by Sander Striker <st...@apache.org>.
> [X] +1
> [ ] +0
> [ ] -0 [why?]
> [ ] -1 [why?]
Sander