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Posted to modperl@perl.apache.org by "Randal L. Schwartz" <me...@stonehenge.com> on 2000/12/08 08:06:02 UTC
mod_perl training (was Re: Certification)
>>>>> "Gunther" == Gunther Birznieks <gu...@extropia.com> writes:
Gunther> A lecture format is great for spreading the word at the
Gunther> conferences, but hands-on training would be even better. Or
Gunther> perhaps there isn't a demand for mod_perl training in which
Gunther> case I guess that's a business decision.
Hmm. I guess I can speak to that. :)
I have seen that hands-on gets the stuff to stick longer, and also has
people ask more intelligent questions later in the course. So I agree
with you there... I think people would get more out of a hands-on
course than a lecture seminar.
But here's the reality of trainings. You need to get 10 to 20 people
in a room at the same time that are all starting roughly at the same
skill level and also want to end up in the same place. And then you
need to do that about 8 to 20 times with the same slide set before you
break even, because the cost of producing the materials is pretty
high: figure one to three DAYS of research for every HOUR of face time
in the classroom.
I can't figure out where the "start" and "finish" are with mod_perl
that would make sense for 80 to 400 people. It's not core techology,
like the llama. We target the llama as how you would want ANY perl
hacker to spend their first 30 hours. But what 20-30 hours are
*common* for any mod_perl hacker? And what do you do for pre-reqs?
Training is a tough business. I've been damn lucky, and moderately
skilled to have had the privilege to train thousands of satisfied
customers, and sell hundreds of thousands of book. And I'd love to
see more mod_perl hackers out there. But it's gotta make sense to me
financially before I commit resources to it. I'm a small business. I
can't absorb training at a loss for very long.
Hope that helps you see what you need to tell me to get me to do this.
(nudge nudge)
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<me...@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
Re: mod_perl training (was Re: Certification)
Posted by "J. J. Horner" <jh...@2jnetworks.com>.
On Thu, Dec 07, 2000 at 11:06:02PM -0800, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
> I can't figure out where the "start" and "finish" are with mod_perl
> that would make sense for 80 to 400 people. It's not core techology,
> like the llama. We target the llama as how you would want ANY perl
> hacker to spend their first 30 hours. But what 20-30 hours are
> *common* for any mod_perl hacker? And what do you do for pre-reqs?
In my opinion, two essential prereqs are:
1. Strong knowledge of perl.
2. Strong knowledge of Apache webserver configuration and administration.
I say this because I didn't know that so many people though mod_perl was
just Apache::Registry or HTML::Mason, or Axkit, or whatever. I always
though of mod_perl as the PERL API TO APACHE! That, in my opinion, should
be the center of attention in a training program. Teaching about the
API hooks to the different response phases, showing examples of different
interactions with the phases, and working through exercises where a student
learns most of the nooks-n-crannies of the API. One can't learn all of this
unless one knows Apache configuration, administration, and operation well, and
one will be completely lost unless one knows perl.
I don't want to be hired as an HTML::Mason programmer, no matter how cool the
module is. I want to be a mod_perl programmer so I can write custom stuff
for a company that has specific guidelines and needs. If a company can take
something already written and use it, they won't hire a mod_perl programmer.
Am I right?
>
> Training is a tough business. I've been damn lucky, and moderately
> skilled to have had the privilege to train thousands of satisfied
> customers, and sell hundreds of thousands of book. And I'd love to
> see more mod_perl hackers out there. But it's gotta make sense to me
> financially before I commit resources to it. I'm a small business. I
> can't absorb training at a loss for very long.
>
> Hope that helps you see what you need to tell me to get me to do this.
> (nudge nudge)
I'd start off with an intro course available for pay over the web. I'm
not qualified for this, but you are about as qualified as anyone. I'd be
more than happy to provide feedback and give my oh-so-insignificant opinions.
I'd wait to see what the response is on the intro.
I'll be honest with you. I can NOT travel to do training. I can't afford it, nor
can I take the time to do it. I'm not likely to find a company who will send me
somewhere so I can do it. That is why online training is so important and appealing to me.
I'd pay to take an online course (read this, and do exercises, and then get feedback, and
then get a neat little certificate from merlyn).
I just now feel somewhat comfortable putting mod_perl in my signature. I don't use
Apache::Registry very much. But I do write phase specific stuff.
--
J. J. Horner
jjhorner@bellsouth.net
Apache, Perl, mod_perl, Web security, Linux
mod_perl class
Posted by Nathan Torkington <gn...@frii.com>.
J. J. Horner writes:
>> I would be willing to donate my time to write and initially test
>> the exercises to the slides that are taught for the days. If a
>> couple people were to donate their time to writing the slides
>> based on an outline produced by Stas and Randal.
>
> So would I. I'm more than willing to proof read, test, and be a
> guinea pig.
http://prometheus.frii.com/~gnat/mod_perl/ holds the PowerPoint slide
source and the PDF produced from it, of the course I taught at
O'Reilly's University of Perl earlier this year. I'm happy to have
this become the basis for an open source mod_perl class. The "course
book" for this is the Eagle book, "Writing Apache Modules in Perl and
C" published by O'Reilly.
There are bugs in some of the code in the class, I know. I have
revised versions of some of the programs but haven't had time to add
them. A volunteer who already knows mod_perl and has ability to edit
PowerPoint files would be useful here to do this work.
A full class will need not just slides but:
* text for the teacher on what should be said for this slide
(doesn't have to be a transcription, just an idea of how deep to
go into each bullet point)
* labs with sample answers
And finally, please note that I'm not Randal.
Nat
Re: mod_perl training (was Re: Certification)
Posted by "J. J. Horner" <jh...@2jnetworks.com>.
On Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 06:13:13PM +0800, Gunther Birznieks wrote:
> It sounds to me like you have hit the nail on the head. Perhaps what is
> needed in terms of recouping costs for a mod_perl hands-on development
> course and/or online course is the open source/collaborative approach.
>
This seems to be a good solution to this problem. Instead of
one person sucking up the costs of developing these courses, we could
get a group together to do this. Sounds good to me.
> I would be willing to donate my time to write and initially test the
> exercises to the slides that are taught for the days. If a couple people
> were to donate their time to writing the slides based on an outline
> produced by Stas and Randal.
>
So would I. I'm more than willing to proof read, test, and be a guinea pig.
> We could host it on sourceforge as the modperltraining project. Sourceforge
> could also host the mailing list.
>
> Then regardless of if Randal would then be willing to take the course
> material and beta test it as a class he offers (eg maybe giving the course
> itself would not be profitable for him), we ourselves could be giving this
> course all over the world in beta-test Perl Monger groups.
>
Yet another good idea. We all love open-source, and collaborative efforts, so
let's create a good set of training materials, and then let people teach this
material in their own neighborhoods.
> I know there are still issues such as getting people of the same level of
> expertise in the same room and mod_perl not being a "core" technology, but
> I think mod_perl can be taught assuming similar requirements as the PROM
> class you offer as an initial thought? mod_perl doesn't require all of
> PROM, but probably about a day of it would be integrated to bring people up
> to speed on the basics?
You lost me here. I'm not sure what "core" technology means. I always thought
it would be relatively easy for an experienced teacher to develop a coherent,
reliable course for mod_perl, as long as some requirements are met (able to program
perl and able to configure and administer an apache server). Once those guidelines
are met, discussing the Apache API, going into detail on each of the response phases,
and going through examples and exercises, would flow somewhat unfettered.
1. the Apache server life cycle
2. the request loop
3. Discussion of the API for each phase of the loop with examples
4. Exercises
This would take about 3 (maybe 4) days with someone who meets the pre-reqs. 1 for the intro and terminology
1 long day to discuss the APIs for each phase (maybe two), and 1 day to go over
exercises and have some "lab" work.
This is just a rough estimate, and if someone thinks I've lost my coconuts let me know.
Getting someone up to speed on mod_perl (not Apache::* modules, but the perl API to Apache),
shouldn't take too long. I'd say about 1-1.5 hours for each stop in the request loop. 4-5
hours to teach someone the guts of Apache, including terminology and the real base knowledge
stuff, and 8-10 hours to go over exercises, and develop skeleton handlers.
We are looking at about 30 hours of hard, hard work. They don't call some training sessions
"boot camps" for nothing.
Again, feedback is good. Just make it constructive. Calling me a "moronic putz" isn't helpful,
but saying "Hey, Moronic Putz, you underestimate ...." is good.
> helping with this project, please email me privately. If I get enough
> people willing to contribute (at least 5), I'll set up the sourceforge
> project to start the ball rolling Oh yeah, did I say I didn't mind donating
> my admin time as well to this experiment. :)
Count me in. I'll be willing to guinea pig stuff and give feedback, as well
as do research and help out more experienced teachers.
>
> Later,
> Gunther
>
>
JJ
--
J. J. Horner
jjhorner@bellsouth.net
Apache, Perl, mod_perl, Web security, Linux
Re: mod_perl training (was Re: Certification)
Posted by Gunther Birznieks <gu...@extropia.com>.
At 10:45 AM 12/8/2000 -0500, Richard Dice wrote:
>"Randal L. Schwartz" wrote:
> >
> > But here's the reality of trainings. You need to get 10 to 20 people
> > in a room at the same time that are all starting roughly at the same
> > skill level and also want to end up in the same place. And then you
> > need to do that about 8 to 20 times with the same slide set before you
> > break even, because the cost of producing the materials is pretty
> > high: figure one to three DAYS of research for every HOUR of face time
> > in the classroom.
>
>I've been lucky enough to "inherit" (as a subcontractor) sets of Perl
>training materials put together by a really decent guy named James.
>I shudder to think of the time investment he made in creating that stuff.
>He and I have talked from time to time about revising/updating the
>existing materials, and maybe even creating some new courses, but how to
>find the time...
>
>Mod_perl is a topic I'd really like to work on -- both in terms of
>teaching and also in putting together the training materials to begin
>with. I've yet to figure out the "magic formula" to make this work,
>though.
>
> > I can't figure out where the "start" and "finish" are with mod_perl
> > that would make sense for 80 to 400 people. It's not core techology,
> > like the llama. We target the llama as how you would want ANY perl
> > hacker to spend their first 30 hours. But what 20-30 hours are
> > *common* for any mod_perl hacker? And what do you do for pre-reqs?
>
>These are all really good points.
>
>One other slightly-more-minor consideration when it comes to teaching
>a Perl course is system set-up. If you control the training environment,
>(ie. you have your own classroom and students come out to it) then this
>isn't a problem. But if you teach at the client's location, then it can
>be an issue trying to get their machines configured to the point where you
>can actually have workshops on what you teach. Mod_perl is a biggie in
>terms of the kind of setup you have to do: you need a lot of Perl modules
>installed on the machine, a recent version of Perl, source-code level
>acceses to building Apache, and not just the time needed to do this to a
>classroom full of computers, but also _permission_.
>
>That all said, I'm sure there will be mod_perl courses available somehow,
>someday. 5000(0(0?)?) mod_perl hackers can't be wrong. :-)
>
>Cheers,
>Richard
At first I read Randal's message I didn't know what to say. It's absolutely
true, but it's also very demoralizing to me (to say that it's not
profitable to teach mod_perl in the best possible way -- hands on).
It sounds to me like you have hit the nail on the head. Perhaps what is
needed in terms of recouping costs for a mod_perl hands-on development
course and/or online course is the open source/collaborative approach.
I would be willing to donate my time to write and initially test the
exercises to the slides that are taught for the days. If a couple people
were to donate their time to writing the slides based on an outline
produced by Stas and Randal.
I believe this layered approach would produce some reasonable training
material versus someone working on 1 day of training and another person
working on another day of training. If we did it that way, the days would
not have cohesion. But instead, you get 2 people doing the outline
collaboratively. You then get 2 people fleshing out the outline with some
comments from the first and then you get 1 person writing the exercises
because you want the exercises to build off of each other.
The the slides could be slowly improved in a larger open source community
after that.
I believe Randal's years of Perl training expertise would make him well
qualified to at least contribute an outline of what he believes a course in
mod_perl should entail and in what general order (kind of like a leader in
this aspect if he were willing to take it on).
Stas would also be ideal in both contributing a day of training and the
outline. Although he hasn't done hands-on training (I presume) and I have
never done so (although I've given 1-2 day lectures plenty of times), which
is a different matter.
Once the rough drafts are produced, it's a matter of having an open source
tree where the notes/exercises and slides can be adjusted as time goes on.
I would suggest HTML as the format for slides because it would be the
easiest to manage as a group project in CVS.
We could host it on sourceforge as the modperltraining project. Sourceforge
could also host the mailing list.
Then regardless of if Randal would then be willing to take the course
material and beta test it as a class he offers (eg maybe giving the course
itself would not be profitable for him), we ourselves could be giving this
course all over the world in beta-test Perl Monger groups.
I am pretty sure that if we target 6 months for this project to reach beta,
that by then I could give a mod_perl course using an eLinux training room
in Singapore for the local Asia crowd.
How about it Randal? If we make this an open source project, would this
help make it profitable for you to offer hands on mod_perl training?
I know there are still issues such as getting people of the same level of
expertise in the same room and mod_perl not being a "core" technology, but
I think mod_perl can be taught assuming similar requirements as the PROM
class you offer as an initial thought? mod_perl doesn't require all of
PROM, but probably about a day of it would be integrated to bring people up
to speed on the basics?
I know we don't have quite your experience setting up hands-on training
material, but it would be an interesting experiment if you have the time to
help us.
The schedule I am thinking of is
1 month to develop outline.
2 months to flesh out the slides with rough draft (with a break after 1
month for intermediate comments by outline and exercise authors).
And 1 month to develop exercises to go with the slides (although input on
the slides would be given by the exercise writer too). Although mod_perl
2.0 might be out by then :), I think the basic principles of the slides
would still be there.
I also think that people who are experienced here could take the slides and
use them when they start companies or departments and hire new people who
know Perl but not Mod_perl. Right now, they have to train the junior folks
off the cuff. This would give them a guideline and training material to
help bring their own guys up to speed.
Also with eventual open source written slide notes, it could also be a
self-study course.
Anyway, even if Randal does not have the time. Anyone who is interested in
helping with this project, please email me privately. If I get enough
people willing to contribute (at least 5), I'll set up the sourceforge
project to start the ball rolling Oh yeah, did I say I didn't mind donating
my admin time as well to this experiment. :)
Later,
Gunther
Re: mod_perl training (was Re: Certification)
Posted by Richard Dice <rd...@pobox.com>.
"Randal L. Schwartz" wrote:
>
> But here's the reality of trainings. You need to get 10 to 20 people
> in a room at the same time that are all starting roughly at the same
> skill level and also want to end up in the same place. And then you
> need to do that about 8 to 20 times with the same slide set before you
> break even, because the cost of producing the materials is pretty
> high: figure one to three DAYS of research for every HOUR of face time
> in the classroom.
I've been lucky enough to "inherit" (as a subcontractor) sets of Perl
training materials put together by a really decent guy named James.
I shudder to think of the time investment he made in creating that stuff.
He and I have talked from time to time about revising/updating the
existing materials, and maybe even creating some new courses, but how to
find the time...
Mod_perl is a topic I'd really like to work on -- both in terms of
teaching and also in putting together the training materials to begin
with. I've yet to figure out the "magic formula" to make this work,
though.
> I can't figure out where the "start" and "finish" are with mod_perl
> that would make sense for 80 to 400 people. It's not core techology,
> like the llama. We target the llama as how you would want ANY perl
> hacker to spend their first 30 hours. But what 20-30 hours are
> *common* for any mod_perl hacker? And what do you do for pre-reqs?
These are all really good points.
One other slightly-more-minor consideration when it comes to teaching
a Perl course is system set-up. If you control the training environment,
(ie. you have your own classroom and students come out to it) then this
isn't a problem. But if you teach at the client's location, then it can
be an issue trying to get their machines configured to the point where you
can actually have workshops on what you teach. Mod_perl is a biggie in
terms of the kind of setup you have to do: you need a lot of Perl modules
installed on the machine, a recent version of Perl, source-code level
acceses to building Apache, and not just the time needed to do this to a
classroom full of computers, but also _permission_.
That all said, I'm sure there will be mod_perl courses available somehow,
someday. 5000(0(0?)?) mod_perl hackers can't be wrong. :-)
Cheers,
Richard
--
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