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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com> on 2012/01/29 02:15:29 UTC

[DISCUSSION] Regular rotation PMC chair

There's always the perennial chat here and there about rotating the PMC chair on a regular basis. It's my understanding that other PMCs have adopted this policy and are quite happy with it.  It's also my understanding that some in this community think it would be a good idea to do it here.

Good idea?  What should be the term length?  Should the current chair be forced to resign or can the person re-run for the next term?  If forced to resign can the person re-run for a term sometime in the future?  If not forced to resign is there a limit to the number of terms that can be held?


Regards,
Alan
 
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Re: [DISCUSSION] Regular rotation PMC chair

Posted by Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>.
On Jan 28, 2012, at 5:15 PM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:

> There's always the perennial chat here and there about rotating the PMC chair on a regular basis. It's my understanding that other PMCs have adopted this policy and are quite happy with it.  It's also my understanding that some in this community think it would be a good idea to do it here.
> 
> Good idea?  What should be the term length?  Should the current chair be forced to resign or can the person re-run for the next term?  If forced to resign can the person re-run for a term sometime in the future?  If not forced to resign is there a limit to the number of terms that can be held?

I like the idea of an annual election so that there aren't any hard feelings.  I personally have no problem with the same person being re-elected every year.  This is pretty much what the members do with the board elections - some members have served for a long time while others rotate more frequently.  Personally, I would prefer it if this was an across the board policy that applied to all PMCs.

Ralph
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Re: [DISCUSSION] Regular rotation PMC chair

Posted by Ate Douma <at...@douma.nu>.
On 01/29/2012 09:37 PM, Ralph Goers wrote:
>
> On Jan 29, 2012, at 12:16 PM, Benson Margulies wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 2:23 PM, Alan D. Cabrera<li...@toolazydogs.com>  wrote:
>>>
>>> On Jan 29, 2012, at 6:18 AM, Ate Douma wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> FTR: as should be clear from my above response, I disagree with the topic of this discussion thread. This should be about Regular (re)election of the PMC Chair. Regular rotation IMO would be unwise and undesirable.
>>>
>>> Good point.  I share the same opinion.
>>
>> Let me try to state some alternatives:
>>
>> 1) No particular policy: The PMC has no special policy about
>> recommending a new chair to the board. It will happen if the chair
>> resigns, or if the PMC as a whole reaches a consensus on a change.
>>
>> 2) Fixed election schedule: On some schedule (e.g. annually),
>> nominations are opened, including potentially the current chair, and a
>> vote takes place. (I'd hate to have to fire up the full secret ballot
>> mechanism used for board members.) Whomever wins is recommended to the
>> board.
>>
>> 3) Rotation policy: On some schedule, the PMC chooses a new chair to
>> recommend to the board 'whether it needs one or not.' This could be
>> viewed as 'term limits'.
>>
>> If we don't reach a consensus on something else, we stick with the
>> current state of affairs, which is, I claim, (1).
>>
>> We could adopt both (2) and (3): purely for example, we could have an
>> annual election, but a 5-year maximum on continuous service.
>
> My preference is option 2 alone. I don't see the point of "term limits" as I believe that will take care of itself.  I'm not in favor of 1 because it always seems to end up feeling like it is personal when people bring up rotating the chair - i.e. isn't the current chair doing a good enough job, the current chair should say they want to resign first, etc., rather than it just being time to allow the PMC to reevaluate itself


+1 for option 2 (alone) as well, and fully agree with Ralph's arguments.

Concerning having to 'fire up the full secret ballot mechanism used for board', 
I would think that not necessarily nor often needed. As I said earlier, if there 
are no other candidates and the current Chair is willing to serve another term, 
which could be determined by a simple and lazy consensus heads-up email on 
private@, there need not be held any format vote as long as everybody is aware 
of the fact.

Regards, Ate

>
> Ralph
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Re: [DISCUSSION] Regular rotation PMC chair

Posted by Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>.
On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 9:39 PM, Christian Grobmeier
<gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 9:37 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>> On Jan 29, 2012, at 12:16 PM, Benson Margulies wrote:
>>> On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 2:23 PM, Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com> wrote:
>>>> On Jan 29, 2012, at 6:18 AM, Ate Douma wrote:
>>>>> FTR: as should be clear from my above response, I disagree with the topic of this discussion thread. This should be about Regular (re)election of the PMC Chair. Regular rotation IMO would be unwise and undesirable.
>>>>
>>>> Good point.  I share the same opinion.
>>>
>>> Let me try to state some alternatives:
>>>
>>> 1) No particular policy: The PMC has no special policy about
>>> recommending a new chair to the board. It will happen if the chair
>>> resigns, or if the PMC as a whole reaches a consensus on a change.
>>>
>>> 2) Fixed election schedule: On some schedule (e.g. annually),
>>> nominations are opened, including potentially the current chair, and a
>>> vote takes place. (I'd hate to have to fire up the full secret ballot
>>> mechanism used for board members.) Whomever wins is recommended to the
>>> board.
...
>>> If we don't reach a consensus on something else, we stick with the
>>> current state of affairs, which is, I claim, (1).

+1. I would like it changed.

>> My preference is option 2 alone. I don't see the point of
>> "term limits" as I believe that will take care of itself.  I'm
>> not in favor of 1 because it always seems to end up
>> feeling like it is personal when people bring up rotating
>> the chair - i.e. isn't the current chair doing a good enough
>> job, the current chair should say they want to resign first,
>> etc., rather than it just being time to allow the PMC to
>> reevaluate itself
>
> +1 for option 2 and what Ralph said

+1


cheers,


Leo

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Re: [DISCUSSION] Regular rotation PMC chair

Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 9:37 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>
> On Jan 29, 2012, at 12:16 PM, Benson Margulies wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 2:23 PM, Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Jan 29, 2012, at 6:18 AM, Ate Douma wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> FTR: as should be clear from my above response, I disagree with the topic of this discussion thread. This should be about Regular (re)election of the PMC Chair. Regular rotation IMO would be unwise and undesirable.
>>>
>>> Good point.  I share the same opinion.
>>
>> Let me try to state some alternatives:
>>
>> 1) No particular policy: The PMC has no special policy about
>> recommending a new chair to the board. It will happen if the chair
>> resigns, or if the PMC as a whole reaches a consensus on a change.
>>
>> 2) Fixed election schedule: On some schedule (e.g. annually),
>> nominations are opened, including potentially the current chair, and a
>> vote takes place. (I'd hate to have to fire up the full secret ballot
>> mechanism used for board members.) Whomever wins is recommended to the
>> board.
>>
>> 3) Rotation policy: On some schedule, the PMC chooses a new chair to
>> recommend to the board 'whether it needs one or not.' This could be
>> viewed as 'term limits'.
>>
>> If we don't reach a consensus on something else, we stick with the
>> current state of affairs, which is, I claim, (1).
>>
>> We could adopt both (2) and (3): purely for example, we could have an
>> annual election, but a 5-year maximum on continuous service.
>
> My preference is option 2 alone. I don't see the point of "term limits" as I believe that will take care of itself.  I'm not in favor of 1 because it always seems to end up feeling like it is personal when people bring up rotating the chair - i.e. isn't the current chair doing a good enough job, the current chair should say they want to resign first, etc., rather than it just being time to allow the PMC to reevaluate itself


+1 for option 2 and what Ralph said



>
> Ralph
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-- 
http://www.grobmeier.de
https://www.timeandbill.de

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Re: [DISCUSSION] Regular rotation PMC chair

Posted by Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>.
On Jan 29, 2012, at 12:16 PM, Benson Margulies wrote:

> On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 2:23 PM, Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com> wrote:
>> 
>> On Jan 29, 2012, at 6:18 AM, Ate Douma wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> FTR: as should be clear from my above response, I disagree with the topic of this discussion thread. This should be about Regular (re)election of the PMC Chair. Regular rotation IMO would be unwise and undesirable.
>> 
>> Good point.  I share the same opinion.
> 
> Let me try to state some alternatives:
> 
> 1) No particular policy: The PMC has no special policy about
> recommending a new chair to the board. It will happen if the chair
> resigns, or if the PMC as a whole reaches a consensus on a change.
> 
> 2) Fixed election schedule: On some schedule (e.g. annually),
> nominations are opened, including potentially the current chair, and a
> vote takes place. (I'd hate to have to fire up the full secret ballot
> mechanism used for board members.) Whomever wins is recommended to the
> board.
> 
> 3) Rotation policy: On some schedule, the PMC chooses a new chair to
> recommend to the board 'whether it needs one or not.' This could be
> viewed as 'term limits'.
> 
> If we don't reach a consensus on something else, we stick with the
> current state of affairs, which is, I claim, (1).
> 
> We could adopt both (2) and (3): purely for example, we could have an
> annual election, but a 5-year maximum on continuous service.

My preference is option 2 alone. I don't see the point of "term limits" as I believe that will take care of itself.  I'm not in favor of 1 because it always seems to end up feeling like it is personal when people bring up rotating the chair - i.e. isn't the current chair doing a good enough job, the current chair should say they want to resign first, etc., rather than it just being time to allow the PMC to reevaluate itself

Ralph
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Re: [DISCUSSION] Regular rotation PMC chair

Posted by Ralph Goers <rg...@apache.org>.
On Jan 30, 2012, at 4:29 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Ate Douma <at...@douma.nu> wrote:
>> ...I just realize something not clear from this proposal: are we *only* talking
>> about the Incubator PMC Chair here, or is this a proposal for every PMC
>> Chair?
>> I presumed (and propose) the latter, but maybe that wasn't the intend (yet)...
> 
> We're talking only about the Incubator PMC chair, no need to
> generalize this IMO and this list wouldn't be the right place anyway.

Actually, I wish this was a policy that every PMC followed, but this is definitely the wrong list for that. However, simply having the incubator do it might be enough of an example to encourage other projects to do the same.
> 

Ralph
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RE: [DISCUSSION] Regular rotation PMC chair

Posted by "Franklin, Matthew B." <mf...@mitre.org>.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ross Gardler [mailto:rgardler@opendirective.com]
>Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 8:21 AM
>To: general@incubator.apache.org
>Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Regular rotation PMC chair
>
>On 30 January 2012 13:00, Franklin, Matthew B. <mf...@mitre.org> wrote:
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Bertrand Delacretaz [mailto:bdelacretaz@apache.org]
>>>Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 7:30 AM
>>>To: general@incubator.apache.org
>>>Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Regular rotation PMC chair
>>>
>>>On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Ate Douma <at...@douma.nu> wrote:
>>>> ...I just realize something not clear from this proposal: are we *only*
>talking
>>>> about the Incubator PMC Chair here, or is this a proposal for every PMC
>>>> Chair?
>>>> I presumed (and propose) the latter, but maybe that wasn't the intend
>>>(yet)...
>>>
>>>We're talking only about the Incubator PMC chair, no need to
>>>generalize this IMO and this list wouldn't be the right place anyway.
>>
>> I can understand why you wouldn't want to generalize this to existing
>> PMCs; but, IMO there is value in graduating podlings following this example.
>> If the IPMC institutes this policy & I think it should recommend the model
>> to the podlings undergoing the transition to TLP PMC.
>
>We try to avoid "one-size-fits-all" policies in the ASF, usually for
>good reason. The IPMC is a special case and, speaking personally, I
>don't want to set precedents for podlings based on that special case.
>It really needs to be up to individual communities, with the guidance
>of their mentors, to decide on their chair appointment policy.

I agree that it shouldn't be a requirement, which is why I was thinking recommendation; but, I see your point that the new PMCs need to be self-determining.  I was looking more for exposure to the concept for the new PMCs; which, as you noted, is something that the mentors can work to provide.

>
>Ross
>
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Re: [DISCUSSION] Regular rotation PMC chair

Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
On 30 January 2012 13:00, Franklin, Matthew B. <mf...@mitre.org> wrote:
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Bertrand Delacretaz [mailto:bdelacretaz@apache.org]
>>Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 7:30 AM
>>To: general@incubator.apache.org
>>Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Regular rotation PMC chair
>>
>>On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Ate Douma <at...@douma.nu> wrote:
>>> ...I just realize something not clear from this proposal: are we *only* talking
>>> about the Incubator PMC Chair here, or is this a proposal for every PMC
>>> Chair?
>>> I presumed (and propose) the latter, but maybe that wasn't the intend
>>(yet)...
>>
>>We're talking only about the Incubator PMC chair, no need to
>>generalize this IMO and this list wouldn't be the right place anyway.
>
> I can understand why you wouldn't want to generalize this to existing
> PMCs; but, IMO there is value in graduating podlings following this example.
> If the IPMC institutes this policy & I think it should recommend the model
> to the podlings undergoing the transition to TLP PMC.

We try to avoid "one-size-fits-all" policies in the ASF, usually for
good reason. The IPMC is a special case and, speaking personally, I
don't want to set precedents for podlings based on that special case.
It really needs to be up to individual communities, with the guidance
of their mentors, to decide on their chair appointment policy.

Ross

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RE: [DISCUSSION] Regular rotation PMC chair

Posted by "Franklin, Matthew B." <mf...@mitre.org>.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bertrand Delacretaz [mailto:bdelacretaz@apache.org]
>Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 7:30 AM
>To: general@incubator.apache.org
>Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Regular rotation PMC chair
>
>On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Ate Douma <at...@douma.nu> wrote:
>> ...I just realize something not clear from this proposal: are we *only* talking
>> about the Incubator PMC Chair here, or is this a proposal for every PMC
>> Chair?
>> I presumed (and propose) the latter, but maybe that wasn't the intend
>(yet)...
>
>We're talking only about the Incubator PMC chair, no need to
>generalize this IMO and this list wouldn't be the right place anyway.

I can understand why you wouldn't want to generalize this to existing PMCs; but, IMO there is value in graduating podlings following this example.  If the IPMC institutes this policy & I think it should recommend the model to the podlings undergoing the transition to TLP PMC.  
>
>-Bertrand
>
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Re: [DISCUSSION] Regular rotation PMC chair

Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Ate Douma <at...@douma.nu> wrote:
> ...I just realize something not clear from this proposal: are we *only* talking
> about the Incubator PMC Chair here, or is this a proposal for every PMC
> Chair?
> I presumed (and propose) the latter, but maybe that wasn't the intend (yet)...

We're talking only about the Incubator PMC chair, no need to
generalize this IMO and this list wouldn't be the right place anyway.

-Bertrand

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Re: [DISCUSSION] Regular rotation PMC chair

Posted by Ate Douma <at...@douma.nu>.
On 01/30/2012 10:17 AM, Ross Gardler wrote:
> On 30 January 2012 09:11, Bertrand Delacretaz<bd...@apache.org>  wrote:
>> On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 9:16 PM, Benson Margulies<bi...@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>> ...2) Fixed election schedule: On some schedule (e.g. annually),
>>> nominations are opened, including potentially the current chair, and a
>>> vote takes place...
>>
>> +1 to this option.
>
>
> +1
>
> I suggest the date be 30 days after the board elections. The calibre
> of people we need here is the same calibre as those on the board. By
> making these elections shortly after the board elections we allow
> people to manage their commitments better.
>
I just realize something not clear from this proposal: are we *only* talking 
about the Incubator PMC Chair here, or is this a proposal for every PMC Chair?
I presumed (and propose) the latter, but maybe that wasn't the intend (yet).

Ate

> Ross
>
>>
>> -Bertrand
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
>
>
>


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Re: [DISCUSSION] Regular rotation PMC chair

Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
On 30 January 2012 09:11, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 9:16 PM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> ...2) Fixed election schedule: On some schedule (e.g. annually),
>> nominations are opened, including potentially the current chair, and a
>> vote takes place...
>
> +1 to this option.


+1

I suggest the date be 30 days after the board elections. The calibre
of people we need here is the same calibre as those on the board. By
making these elections shortly after the board elections we allow
people to manage their commitments better.

Ross

>
> -Bertrand
>
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-- 
Ross Gardler (@rgardler)
Programme Leader (Open Development)
OpenDirective http://opendirective.com

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Re: [DISCUSSION] Regular rotation PMC chair

Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 9:16 PM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...2) Fixed election schedule: On some schedule (e.g. annually),
> nominations are opened, including potentially the current chair, and a
> vote takes place...

+1 to this option.

-Bertrand

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Re: [DISCUSSION] Regular rotation PMC chair

Posted by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 2:23 PM, Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com> wrote:
>
> On Jan 29, 2012, at 6:18 AM, Ate Douma wrote:
>
>>
>> FTR: as should be clear from my above response, I disagree with the topic of this discussion thread. This should be about Regular (re)election of the PMC Chair. Regular rotation IMO would be unwise and undesirable.
>
> Good point.  I share the same opinion.

Let me try to state some alternatives:

1) No particular policy: The PMC has no special policy about
recommending a new chair to the board. It will happen if the chair
resigns, or if the PMC as a whole reaches a consensus on a change.

2) Fixed election schedule: On some schedule (e.g. annually),
nominations are opened, including potentially the current chair, and a
vote takes place. (I'd hate to have to fire up the full secret ballot
mechanism used for board members.) Whomever wins is recommended to the
board.

3) Rotation policy: On some schedule, the PMC chooses a new chair to
recommend to the board 'whether it needs one or not.' This could be
viewed as 'term limits'.

If we don't reach a consensus on something else, we stick with the
current state of affairs, which is, I claim, (1).

We could adopt both (2) and (3): purely for example, we could have an
annual election, but a 5-year maximum on continuous service.

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Re: [DISCUSSION] Regular rotation PMC chair

Posted by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com>.
On Jan 29, 2012, at 6:18 AM, Ate Douma wrote:

> 
> FTR: as should be clear from my above response, I disagree with the topic of this discussion thread. This should be about Regular (re)election of the PMC Chair. Regular rotation IMO would be unwise and undesirable.

Good point.  I share the same opinion.


Regards,
Alan


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Re: [DISCUSSION] Regular rotation PMC chair

Posted by Ate Douma <at...@douma.nu>.
On 01/29/2012 03:15 PM, Ate Douma wrote:
> On 01/29/2012 02:15 AM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
> On 01/29/2012 02:15 AM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
>> There's always the perennial chat here and there about rotating the PMC chair
>> on a regular basis. It's my understanding that other PMCs have adopted this
>> policy and are quite happy with it. It's also my understanding that some in
>> this community think it would be a good idea to do it here.
>>
>> Good idea? What should be the term length? Should the current chair be forced
>> to resign or can the person re-run for the next term? If forced to resign can
>> the person re-run for a term sometime in the future? If not forced to resign
>> is there a limit to the number of terms that can be held?
>
> I think it is a good idea to have the position of the PMC Chair limited to a
> pre-defined term, so everybody knows and recognizes this is as an appointed
> position, not tied to a specific person.
> I think it is healthy both for the community *and* the appointed PMC Chair
> itself, to not get too much 'attached' or accustomed to the position, which
> could make it increasingly more difficult to 'detach' from it over time. Or that
> a community simply doesn't recognize it anymore as something questionable.
>
> IMO a PMC Chair which has and retains the support of the rest of the PMC need
> not resign and can maintain that position for as long the PMC supports it.
> But it would be good to 'touch base' after every term, making it easier and less
> awkward for others to step up proposing themselves, or others, as candidate for
> a next term.
> If nobody else is proposed as candidate (and the current Chair is willing to
> continue), everything stays the same. But it should be notified to the board in
> the next report the current PMC Chair was re-elected for the next term.
>
> What length such a term should be, probably can be discussed endlessly, and I
> expect it will be, if we make it an important topic. IMO it is not.
>
>  From a pragmatic POV I propose a one year term, same as with the Board's term
> and easy not to forget or ignore.
>
> One typical argument I'll expect against this at large is that a good PMC Chair
> needs time and experience to grow into the position. Which I agree with.
> A PMC Chair position which is *rotated* every year definitely sound undesirable
> to me because it doesn't allow the current Chair time to properly build up this
> experience.
> But that should be obvious to everyone involved. So common sense can expect a
> PMC to grant a chosen Chair more than a year's term to 'prove' himself and build
> up the needed experience. And re-electing (or not proposing other candidates)
> the current Chair then should be a trivial matter, even allowed by lazy
> consensus for all I care.
>
> And I'd prefer something like the above to be made formal 'policy' by the board,
> so there will be no need to discuss this over and over again.
>
> Effectively, I don't think any of this would or should have *any* consequences
> for PMCs and their Chairs doing a good job for years already. Actually more a
> confirmation and (internal) praise for the tremendous job they've been doing.
>
> To me personally, this includes Noel Bergman, fulfilling a tremendously
> difficult job on behalf of the Incubator PMC. If there is one PMC Chair position
> within the ASF which needs a *very* experienced person to fulfill it, this one
> surely is.
>
> Regards,
> Ate

FTR: as should be clear from my above response, I disagree with the topic of 
this discussion thread. This should be about Regular (re)election of the PMC 
Chair. Regular rotation IMO would be unwise and undesirable.

Ate

>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Alan
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>> There's always the perennial chat here and there about rotating the PMC chair
>> on a regular basis. It's my understanding that other PMCs have adopted this
>> policy and are quite happy with it. It's also my understanding that some in
>> this community think it would be a good idea to do it here.
>>
>> Good idea? What should be the term length? Should the current chair be forced
>> to resign or can the person re-run for the next term? If forced to resign can
>> the person re-run for a term sometime in the future? If not forced to resign
>> is there a limit to the number of terms that can be held?
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Alan
>>
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Re: [DISCUSSION] Regular rotation PMC chair

Posted by Ate Douma <at...@douma.nu>.
On 01/29/2012 02:15 AM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
On 01/29/2012 02:15 AM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
> There's always the perennial chat here and there about rotating the PMC chair on a regular basis. It's my understanding that other PMCs have adopted this policy and are quite happy with it.  It's also my understanding that some in this community think it would be a good idea to do it here.
>
> Good idea?  What should be the term length?  Should the current chair be forced to resign or can the person re-run for the next term?  If forced to resign can the person re-run for a term sometime in the future?  If not forced to resign is there a limit to the number of terms that can be held?

I think it is a good idea to have the position of the PMC Chair limited to a 
pre-defined term, so everybody knows and recognizes this is as an appointed 
position, not tied to a specific person.
I think it is healthy both for the community *and* the appointed PMC Chair 
itself, to not get too much 'attached' or accustomed to the position, which 
could make it increasingly more difficult to 'detach' from it over time. Or that 
a community simply doesn't recognize it anymore as something questionable.

IMO a PMC Chair which has and retains the support of the rest of the PMC need 
not resign and can maintain that position for as long the PMC supports it.
But it would be good to 'touch base' after every term, making it easier and less 
awkward for others to step up proposing themselves, or others, as candidate for 
a next term.
If nobody else is proposed as candidate (and the current Chair is willing to 
continue), everything stays the same. But it should be notified to the board in 
the next report the current PMC Chair was re-elected for the next term.

What length such a term should be, probably can be discussed endlessly, and I 
expect it will be, if we make it an important topic. IMO it is not.

 From a pragmatic POV I propose a one year term, same as with the Board's term 
and easy not to forget or ignore.

One typical argument I'll expect against this at large is that a good PMC Chair 
needs time and experience to grow into the position. Which I agree with.
A PMC Chair position which is *rotated* every year definitely sound undesirable 
to me because it doesn't allow the current Chair time to properly build up this 
experience.
But that should be obvious to everyone involved. So common sense can expect a 
PMC to grant a chosen Chair more than a year's term to 'prove' himself and build 
up the needed experience. And re-electing (or not proposing other candidates) 
the current Chair then should be a trivial matter, even allowed by lazy 
consensus for all I care.

And I'd prefer something like the above to be made formal 'policy' by the board, 
so there will be no need to discuss this over and over again.

Effectively, I don't think any of this would or should have *any* consequences 
for PMCs and their Chairs doing a good job for years already. Actually more a 
confirmation and (internal) praise for the tremendous job they've been doing.

To me personally, this includes Noel Bergman, fulfilling a tremendously 
difficult job on behalf of the Incubator PMC. If there is one PMC Chair position 
within the ASF which needs a *very* experienced person to fulfill it, this one 
surely is.

Regards,
Ate

>
>
> Regards,
> Alan
>
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> There's always the perennial chat here and there about rotating the PMC chair on a regular basis. It's my understanding that other PMCs have adopted this policy and are quite happy with it.  It's also my understanding that some in this community think it would be a good idea to do it here.
>
> Good idea?  What should be the term length?  Should the current chair be forced to resign or can the person re-run for the next term?  If forced to resign can the person re-run for a term sometime in the future?  If not forced to resign is there a limit to the number of terms that can be held?
>
>
> Regards,
> Alan
>
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> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
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Re: [DISCUSSION] Regular rotation PMC chair

Posted by Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>.
On Jan 28, 2012, at 6:20 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:

>> Should the current chair be forced to resign
> 
> I'm not going to make an issue of it.

I didn't interpret this as directed at you but at what a new policy on regular elections of a PMC should be.

Ralph
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RE: [DISCUSSION] Regular rotation PMC chair

Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> Should the current chair be forced to resign

I'm not going to make an issue of it.

	--- Noel


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