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Posted to dev@harmony.apache.org by Mark Hindess <ma...@googlemail.com> on 2006/06/08 19:47:57 UTC
Re: [classlib] logging from within our implementation
My non-virtual machine of choice is a linux system. It's DNS provider
(in the system libraries) doesn't log failures directly.
I can't understand why it should be different for my virtual machine.
Certainly no other JVM's do this and we should be striving to maintain
behaviour that isn't going to surprise/confuse users[0].
My operating system provides a number of specialist tools for
diagnosing/resolving (pardon the pun) DNS problems, I'd rather use them
for this task than burden the jvm with this task. They will undoubtedly
do a better job because that is their only job.
I realise that this is an argument for not having logging on by
default. It is not an argument for not having logging at all.
Just my 0.02 GBP.
Regards,
Mark.
[0] There may be times when the greater good is served by breaking this
rule - surprising users not confusing them ;-) - but I don't think
this is one of them.
On 8 June 2006 at 20:03, "Alexei Zakharov" <al...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Once again. DNS provider does not look like another math lib. Yes, it
> is a part of JVM. But it is a network application nevetheless like ftp
> client, icq or whatever. It needs to warn people about some network
> conditions and events without self-termination. It has maximum one
> user-level log message (nano- or microseconds) per several network
> transactions (can last many seconds). I don't see any reasonable
> motivation to remove such messages. We won't get any performance
> impact. Only reduce the usability of the system by doing this.
>
> 2006/6/8, Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>:
> > I can't recall my jvms ever logging that way for critical stuff - they
> > usually just throw errors, right?
> >
> > Alexei Zakharov wrote:
> > > People, have compassion on critical error/info messages at least (>=
> > > Level.WARNING) . This is not a DEBUG logging, this is useful stuff for
> > > end user!
> > >
> > > 2006/6/8, Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Tim Ellison wrote:
> > >> > Resurrecting this thread, with some trepidation...
> > >> >
> > >> > We went round the houses a bit, but did we reach a conclusion to the
> > >> > questions you posed?
> > >>
> > >> Sadly, no, it doesn't seem so.
> > >>
> > >> I was hoping that Aspect-Master-George might give us some hints...
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> > I'm eager to fix-up the DNS provider code.
> > >>
> > >> Is there something driving that other than the desire to "put it to
> > >> bed"? (Just curious)
> > >>
> > >> Can you just comment the stuff out? (or I can - I'll be happy to)
> > >>
> > >> geir
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> > Regards,
> > >> > Tim
> > >> >
> > >> > Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
> > >> >> Seems like there is an important issue here, but the discussion can't
> > >> >> seem to escape out of the thicket of the example.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> 1) Should we allow any logging from within the classlibrary?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> 2) How should we do it?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> There are a bunch of ways for the second question... using j.u.l,
> > >> using
> > >> >> IOC and injecting our own logging target to reduce dependencies and
> > >> >> make people think before logging, using aspects?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Comments? We probably should try to get to a conclusion in general..
> .
> > >> >>
> > >> >> geir
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Terms of use : http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/mailing.html
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: harmony-dev-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
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> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Alexei Zakharov,
> Intel Middleware Product Division
>
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Re: [classlib] logging from within our implementation
Posted by Alexei Zakharov <al...@gmail.com>.
Mark,
> My non-virtual machine of choice is a linux system. It's DNS provider
> (in the system libraries) doesn't log failures directly.
> I can't understand why it should be different for my virtual machine.
Your choice is linux, other person's choice is windows, I'm ok with
both. Unix systems are known with their silent command line tools and
this is not the only possible way we necessarily should go. I don't
see why this Linux <-> JVM corellation should be so strong.
> My operating system provides a number of specialist tools for
> diagnosing/resolving (pardon the pun) DNS problems, I'd rather use them
> for this task than burden the jvm with this task. They will undoubtedly
> do a better job because that is their only job.
Sorry, I didn't catch it. You are arguing against java DNS tools? Sun
has it, it is better for us to have it. And if we have it, it is
better to have a good tool rather than bad one. And a good tool does
the job as good as it can. Including providing meaningful user-level
log messages (let it be disabled by default if you prefer). ;-)
2006/6/8, Mark Hindess <ma...@googlemail.com>:
>
> My non-virtual machine of choice is a linux system. It's DNS provider
> (in the system libraries) doesn't log failures directly.
>
> I can't understand why it should be different for my virtual machine.
> Certainly no other JVM's do this and we should be striving to maintain
> behaviour that isn't going to surprise/confuse users[0].
>
> My operating system provides a number of specialist tools for
> diagnosing/resolving (pardon the pun) DNS problems, I'd rather use them
> for this task than burden the jvm with this task. They will undoubtedly
> do a better job because that is their only job.
>
> I realise that this is an argument for not having logging on by
> default. It is not an argument for not having logging at all.
>
> Just my 0.02 GBP.
>
> Regards,
> Mark.
>
> [0] There may be times when the greater good is served by breaking this
> rule - surprising users not confusing them ;-) - but I don't think
> this is one of them.
>
> On 8 June 2006 at 20:03, "Alexei Zakharov" <al...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Once again. DNS provider does not look like another math lib. Yes, it
> > is a part of JVM. But it is a network application nevetheless like ftp
> > client, icq or whatever. It needs to warn people about some network
> > conditions and events without self-termination. It has maximum one
> > user-level log message (nano- or microseconds) per several network
> > transactions (can last many seconds). I don't see any reasonable
> > motivation to remove such messages. We won't get any performance
> > impact. Only reduce the usability of the system by doing this.
> >
> > 2006/6/8, Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>:
> > > I can't recall my jvms ever logging that way for critical stuff - they
> > > usually just throw errors, right?
> > >
> > > Alexei Zakharov wrote:
> > > > People, have compassion on critical error/info messages at least (>=
> > > > Level.WARNING) . This is not a DEBUG logging, this is useful stuff for
> > > > end user!
> > > >
> > > > 2006/6/8, Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>:
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Tim Ellison wrote:
> > > >> > Resurrecting this thread, with some trepidation...
> > > >> >
> > > >> > We went round the houses a bit, but did we reach a conclusion to the
> > > >> > questions you posed?
> > > >>
> > > >> Sadly, no, it doesn't seem so.
> > > >>
> > > >> I was hoping that Aspect-Master-George might give us some hints...
> > > >>
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I'm eager to fix-up the DNS provider code.
> > > >>
> > > >> Is there something driving that other than the desire to "put it to
> > > >> bed"? (Just curious)
> > > >>
> > > >> Can you just comment the stuff out? (or I can - I'll be happy to)
> > > >>
> > > >> geir
> > > >>
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Regards,
> > > >> > Tim
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
> > > >> >> Seems like there is an important issue here, but the discussion can't
> > > >> >> seem to escape out of the thicket of the example.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> 1) Should we allow any logging from within the classlibrary?
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> 2) How should we do it?
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> There are a bunch of ways for the second question... using j.u.l,
> > > >> using
> > > >> >> IOC and injecting our own logging target to reduce dependencies and
> > > >> >> make people think before logging, using aspects?
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Comments? We probably should try to get to a conclusion in general..
> > .
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> geir
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Terms of use : http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/mailing.html
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: harmony-dev-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: harmony-dev-help@incubator.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Alexei Zakharov,
> > Intel Middleware Product Division
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Terms of use : http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/mailing.html
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: harmony-dev-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: harmony-dev-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Terms of use : http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/mailing.html
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: harmony-dev-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: harmony-dev-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
--
Alexei Zakharov,
Intel Middleware Product Division
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