Trademark Kill Searches...

[Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>]

The trademark task[1] seemed a little dated to me - especially since
the brand team started focusing on trademarks[2] - and poorly
documented. So, I started looking into improvements...

(Apologies in advance for presenting my views here on some initial
discussions on the private trademark lists. Members are encouraged to
subscribe.)

Just passing everything onto the brand team is likely to stretch the
resources they have available. So, I think the Incubator needs to
remain involved in the process. Reporting facts in public is fine but
interpretation is tricky and best discussed in private[3] with experts
available. So, the brand team also needs to be involved. My proposed
starting point is that an improved process should separate the public
(Incubator community) from the private (Brand community).

Rat needs to perform it's kill search[4]. So I thought we might be
able to use that as a worked example to grow an improved process.

Opinions? Objections? Improvements? Comments?

Robert

[1] "Make sure that the requested project name does not already exist
and check www.nameprotect.com to be sure that the name is not already
trademarked for an existing software product."
[2] http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/
[3] Public speculation may be relevant in court
[4] AIUI this is the usual name for our task

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org

Re: Trademark Kill Searches...

[Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 12:55 AM, David Crossley <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
> Kalle Korhonen wrote:
>> Robert Burrell Donkin
>> <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> But yes, I agree that using "kill search" is probably a bad idea.

<snip>

>> Not sure this action item needs to have a single, well-defined name,
>> but I think you are approaching it from the wrong angle. Instead of
>> eliminating, the projects need to do something like "name availability
>> search", or even "confirming availability of a trademark", although
>> it's difficult to get a 100% confirmation. It should be enough just to
>> verify the availability "to the best of your ability" using common,
>> best-practice guidance.

+1

> I was wondering along these lines too.
> Make up our own term from a positive angle.
>
> "Suitable Names Search"

Works for me (if anyone has anything better, please jump in)

> In the last few days i have also been investigating
> our Guidelines documentation. There does not seem to
> be much assistance for this task. I have commenced
> some additions.

Great :-)

IMHO the task documentation needs relocating from the status template.
I've been wondering about the best approach for a while...

The legal side makes writing assistance tricky. (Publishing anything
which a court might later take to be advice would not be wise.) One
motivation in moving this task to JIRA is that then podlings could
learn inductively without the need for high quality general
documentation on trademark searches. (IMHO if the Incubator needs this
then we should approach the board to engage legal resources to produce
it for us.)

But I'd be very happy to hear alternative ideas :-)

Robert

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org

Re: Trademark Kill Searches...

[David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>]

Kalle Korhonen wrote:
> Robert Burrell Donkin
> <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> But yes, I agree that using "kill search" is probably a bad idea.
> >> What podlings needs to do is essentially "fact finding" (not
> >> interpretation). Perhaps someone could come up with something along
> >> this line of thinking...
> > "Podling Name Filter"...?
> > "Podling Name Hunt"...?
> > "Podling Name Elimination"...?
> > "That Trademark Stuff Podlings Need To Do"...?
> >> (Or someone could just suggest a cool name)
> > Ideas?
> 
> Not sure this action item needs to have a single, well-defined name,
> but I think you are approaching it from the wrong angle. Instead of
> eliminating, the projects need to do something like "name availability
> search", or even "confirming availability of a trademark", although
> it's difficult to get a 100% confirmation. It should be enough just to
> verify the availability "to the best of your ability" using common,
> best-practice guidance.

I was wondering along these lines too.
Make up our own term from a positive angle.

"Suitable Names Search"

In the last few days i have also been investigating
our Guidelines documentation. There does not seem to
be much assistance for this task. I have commenced
some additions.

-David

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org

Re: Trademark Kill Searches...

[Kalle Korhonen <ka...@gmail.com>]

On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 1:19 PM, Robert Burrell Donkin
<ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> But yes, I agree that using "kill search" is probably a bad idea.
>> What podlings needs to do is essentially "fact finding" (not
>> interpretation). Perhaps someone could come up with something along
>> this line of thinking...
> "Podling Name Filter"...?
> "Podling Name Hunt"...?
> "Podling Name Elimination"...?
> "That Trademark Stuff Podlings Need To Do"...?
>> (Or someone could just suggest a cool name)
> Ideas?

Not sure this action item needs to have a single, well-defined name,
but I think you are approaching it from the wrong angle. Instead of
eliminating, the projects need to do something like "name availability
search", or even "confirming availability of a trademark", although
it's difficult to get a 100% confirmation. It should be enough just to
verify the availability "to the best of your ability" using common,
best-practice guidance.

Kalle

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org

Re: Trademark Kill Searches...

[Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>]

On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin
<ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 11:27 AM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 12:18 PM, Robert Burrell Donkin
>> <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 9:33 PM, Robert Burrell Donkin
>>> <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Opinions? Objections? Improvements? Comments?
>>>
>>> <silence/>
>>
>> Just one comment: the "kill search" term sounds odd to me. Where did
>> it come from? To me it suggests something a crazy hunter would do when
>> looking for prey to kill.
>
> (I suspect this might be an example of lawyer humour)
>
> The idea is to kill bad names early (fail fast) before expensive legal
> advice is sort
>
>> Wouldn't something like "trademark search" be more to the point?
>
> AIUI "trademark search" is an overloaded technical legal term. In some
> cases, the board may need to actually pay for an actual "trademark
> search". This would get confusing for everyone.
>
> But yes, I agree that using "kill search" is probably a bad idea.
> What podlings needs to do is essentially "fact finding" (not
> interpretation). Perhaps someone could come up with something along
> this line of thinking...

"Podling Name Filter"...?
"Podling Name Hunt"...?
"Podling Name Elimination"...?
"That Trademark Stuff Podlings Need To Do"...?

> (Or someone could just suggest a cool name)

Ideas?

Robert

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org

Re: Trademark Kill Searches...

[Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>]

On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 11:27 AM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 12:18 PM, Robert Burrell Donkin
> <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 9:33 PM, Robert Burrell Donkin
>> <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Opinions? Objections? Improvements? Comments?
>>
>> <silence/>
>
> Just one comment: the "kill search" term sounds odd to me. Where did
> it come from? To me it suggests something a crazy hunter would do when
> looking for prey to kill.

(I suspect this might be an example of lawyer humour)

The idea is to kill bad names early (fail fast) before expensive legal
advice is sort

> Wouldn't something like "trademark search" be more to the point?

AIUI "trademark search" is an overloaded technical legal term. In some
cases, the board may need to actually pay for an actual "trademark
search". This would get confusing for everyone.

But yes, I agree that using "kill search" is probably a bad idea.
What podlings needs to do is essentially "fact finding" (not
interpretation). Perhaps someone could come up with something along
this line of thinking...

(Or someone could just suggest a cool name)

Robert

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org

Re: Trademark Kill Searches...

[Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com>]

Hi,

On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 12:18 PM, Robert Burrell Donkin
<ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 9:33 PM, Robert Burrell Donkin
> <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Opinions? Objections? Improvements? Comments?
>
> <silence/>

Just one comment: the "kill search" term sounds odd to me. Where did
it come from? To me it suggests something a crazy hunter would do when
looking for prey to kill.

Wouldn't something like "trademark search" be more to the point?

BR,

Jukka Zitting

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org

Re: Trademark Kill Searches...

[Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>]

On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 9:33 PM, Robert Burrell Donkin
<ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The trademark task[1] seemed a little dated to me - especially since
> the brand team started focusing on trademarks[2] - and poorly
> documented. So, I started looking into improvements...
>
> (Apologies in advance for presenting my views here on some initial
> discussions on the private trademark lists. Members are encouraged to
> subscribe.)
>
> Just passing everything onto the brand team is likely to stretch the
> resources they have available. So, I think the Incubator needs to
> remain involved in the process. Reporting facts in public is fine but
> interpretation is tricky and best discussed in private[3] with experts
> available. So, the brand team also needs to be involved. My proposed
> starting point is that an improved process should separate the public
> (Incubator community) from the private (Brand community).
>
> Rat needs to perform it's kill search[4]. So I thought we might be
> able to use that as a worked example to grow an improved process.
>
> Opinions? Objections? Improvements? Comments?

<silence/>

(sounds like lazy consensus so I'll push on)

More eyes make all bugs shallow :-)

ATM each podling conducts a kill search guided by just [1]. I know of
no public record of what was done (if anyone knows where fact finding
is recorded, please jump in :-)

Incubator-wide public records would improve oversight[5] and reduce
the bar to learning by example.  Using a JIRA project[6] (unless
anyone jumps in with a good candidate, a new one) to record and
coordinate fact finding seems like an easy way to do this.

Opinions? Objections? Improvements? Alternatives?

Robert

> [1] "Make sure that the requested project name does not already exist
> and check www.nameprotect.com to be sure that the name is not already
> trademarked for an existing software product."
> [2] http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/
> [3] Public speculation may be relevant in court
> [4] AIUI this is the usual name for our task
[5] by Incubator, brand and legal communities
[6] Within the Incubator
https://issues.apache.org/jira/secure/BrowseProjects.jspa#10024

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org