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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Jacopo Cappellato <ja...@gmail.com> on 2015/05/21 15:23:44 UTC
[DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Hi all,
my name is Jacopo Cappellato, I am an ASF member and the PMC chair of Apache OFBiz.
As the proposal's champion, I would like to open up a discussion thread on the proposal for Freemarker to join ASF as an incubating project.
The proposal is available here:
https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal
I would like to thank the co-authors Dániel Dékány, David Jones and Jean-Frederic Clere.
Thanks in advance for your time!
Jacopo Cappellato
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Fwd: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Sergio Fernández <wi...@apache.org>.
FYI, relevant for us because ldpath-template
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Jacopo Cappellato <ja...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, May 21, 2015 at 3:23 PM
Subject: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Hi all,
my name is Jacopo Cappellato, I am an ASF member and the PMC chair of
Apache OFBiz.
As the proposal's champion, I would like to open up a discussion thread on
the proposal for Freemarker to join ASF as an incubating project.
The proposal is available here:
https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal
I would like to thank the co-authors Dániel Dékány, David Jones and
Jean-Frederic Clere.
Thanks in advance for your time!
Jacopo Cappellato
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--
Sergio Fernández
Partner Technology Manager
Redlink GmbH
m: +43 6602747925
e: sergio.fernandez@redlink.co
w: http://redlink.co
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 8:30 PM, Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
> Thursday, June 4, 2015, 3:30:56 PM, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
>> ...(at least from before 2005 up to 2008 and according to
>> Geir at least from 2000/2001). The 2 names constantly popping up in
>> these threads are Jonathan Revusky and Daniel Dekany...
> ...I'm much older, means, I can just ignore things that I don't
> agree with and go on....
I have absolutely no context to lean one way or the other, but if
something actually happened back in 2005-2008 it's safe to assume that
people might have changed in the meantime. And incubation is a good
way to figure out how people behave, before graduating a project.
IOW, based on Daniel's answers the things that Martin mentions don't
look to me as obstacles for entering incubation.
-Bertrand
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu>.
Thursday, June 4, 2015, 3:30:56 PM, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
> As we are community over code and I haven't read anything about the
> history we have with Freemarker, it is probably now the time to
> mention it.
> The first response on this proposal was "Huh? They want to come to Apache ?"
Which was also the reacting of Jonathan... but as he is inactive for
very long time, he agreed to not stand in the way. Especially if FM
will be an Apache project, it's very very unlikely that he will want
to be active again, if that's what you are worried about.
> The Freemarker community was a fan of trolling the Apache Velocity
> mailinglists
Most of the "Freemarker community" doesn't even know about this
matter...
> (at least from before 2005 up to 2008 and according to
> Geir at least from 2000/2001). The 2 names constantly popping up in
> these threads are Jonathan Revusky and Daniel Dekany. Even though
> Daniel uses a lot friendlier words, had some useful discussions on the
> Velocity lists and disapproved of the strong wording Jonathan uses, he
> was agreeing with the general message expressed in those mails and
> *active* in these useless threads and even replying to mails Jonathan
> send.
I don't know, I guess he was right. Apart from fan trolling. Or, I
don't remember if I have agreed on something dangerous.
Anyway, I'm much older, means, I can just ignore things that I don't
agree with and go on. A vital skill at working places.
> So :
> - Since Jonathan is the main author of the code, does he agree to the
> move to Apache ? (as we like to have voluntary code donations)
Yes, he will sign.
> - I would be -1 on him becoming a committer at Apache at this time, if
> he would turn up. It would need some kind of "proof" to show that
> behaviour has improved.
> His message were exactly the kind of
> communication that make people run away from projects and we need of
> code of conduct for.
> - Daniel - what has changed ? [1] Since you are listed as a committer,
> it would be nice to know you will not become a toxic member of the
> Apache community, but a constructive.
>
> Mvgr,
> Martin
>
> [1] http://markmail.org/message/mx7bpfd4sflm6yee (the whole thread is
> typical for the trolling) , more examples simply by searching Jonathan
> and Daniel's name on the velocity lists.
>
> 2015-05-21 15:23 GMT+02:00 Jacopo Cappellato <ja...@gmail.com>:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> my name is Jacopo Cappellato, I am an ASF member and the PMC chair of Apache OFBiz.
>>
>> As the proposal's champion, I would like to open up a discussion thread on the proposal for Freemarker to join ASF as an incubating project.
>>
>> The proposal is available here:
>>
>> https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal
>>
>> I would like to thank the co-authors Dániel Dékány, David Jones and Jean-Frederic Clere.
>>
>> Thanks in advance for your time!
>>
>> Jacopo Cappellato
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
--
Thanks,
Daniel Dekany
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>.
As we are community over code and I haven't read anything about the
history we have with Freemarker, it is probably now the time to
mention it.
The first response on this proposal was "Huh? They want to come to Apache ?"
The Freemarker community was a fan of trolling the Apache Velocity
mailinglists (at least from before 2005 up to 2008 and according to
Geir at least from 2000/2001). The 2 names constantly popping up in
these threads are Jonathan Revusky and Daniel Dekany. Even though
Daniel uses a lot friendlier words, had some useful discussions on the
Velocity lists and disapproved of the strong wording Jonathan uses, he
was agreeing with the general message expressed in those mails and
*active* in these useless threads and even replying to mails Jonathan
send.
So :
- Since Jonathan is the main author of the code, does he agree to the
move to Apache ? (as we like to have voluntary code donations)
- I would be -1 on him becoming a committer at Apache at this time, if
he would turn up. It would need some kind of "proof" to show that
behaviour has improved. His message were exactly the kind of
communication that make people run away from projects and we need of
code of conduct for.
- Daniel - what has changed ? [1] Since you are listed as a committer,
it would be nice to know you will not become a toxic member of the
Apache community, but a constructive.
Mvgr,
Martin
[1] http://markmail.org/message/mx7bpfd4sflm6yee (the whole thread is
typical for the trolling) , more examples simply by searching Jonathan
and Daniel's name on the velocity lists.
2015-05-21 15:23 GMT+02:00 Jacopo Cappellato <ja...@gmail.com>:
> Hi all,
>
> my name is Jacopo Cappellato, I am an ASF member and the PMC chair of Apache OFBiz.
>
> As the proposal's champion, I would like to open up a discussion thread on the proposal for Freemarker to join ASF as an incubating project.
>
> The proposal is available here:
>
> https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal
>
> I would like to thank the co-authors Dániel Dékány, David Jones and Jean-Frederic Clere.
>
> Thanks in advance for your time!
>
> Jacopo Cappellato
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com>.
Le 21/05/2015 16:29, John D. Ament a écrit :
> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 10:11 AM Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Sergio Fernández <wi...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>> ...If you'd need any other mentor, I'm happy to help there (I'm
>> Incubator PMC
>>> and ASF Member)...
>> Currently I see three mentors and two committers at
>> https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal, I'm not involved
>> in that podling but it looks to me that additional committers might be
>> more useful than more mentors.
>>
> >From looking at their graphs, on github, they have 5 total contributors.
>
> https://github.com/freemarker/freemarker/graphs/contributors
>
> I'm wondering - would the others who aren't on the proposal be interested
> in joining the proposal?
Actually the project is currently at SourceForge https://sourceforge.net/p/freemarker/wiki/Home/ as you see following http://freemarker.org/
Jacques
>
>
>> -Bertrand
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
>>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu>.
That's great, and of course you are in as far as I'm concerned! (In
Freemarker, I mean... as we aren't in the Incubator yet.)
I plan to assemble a list of TODO-s, and especially, trying to
identify pieces that contributors could pick up easily. Also, more
eyes who just try to spot problems in the commits is highly welcome.
(Regarding what concretely you (or other Hippo developers) wish to
contribute, let's continue on freemarker-devel, as these are OT
there.)
--
Thanks,
Daniel Dekany
Monday, June 1, 2015, 5:15:35 PM, Woonsan Ko wrote:
> On 5/21/15 10:29 AM, John D. Ament wrote:
>>> Currently I see three mentors and two committers at
>>> > https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal, I'm not involved
>>> > in that podling but it looks to me that additional committers might be
>>> > more useful than more mentors.
>>> >
>>>From looking at their graphs, on github, they have 5 total contributors.
>>
>> https://github.com/freemarker/freemarker/graphs/contributors
>>
>> I'm wondering - would the others who aren't on the proposal be interested
>> in joining the proposal?
>
> Hi Folks,
>
> My name is Woonsan Ko. I recently contributed a small feature (JSTL
> function support in freemarker) to the project, so my name was there.
> I'm really happy with this move to Apache incubation, and I'd like to
> help this as a committer if possible.
>
> I'm working at Hippo (http://www.onehippo.com), an open source Web CMS
> company, and we Hippo have been integrating with Freemarker as our
> default delivery tier templating engine. [1]
> So our customers have been using Freemarker as the default templating
> option on top of our product for long time as well. You can take a look
> at our forum [2] to see how heavily they're using it with our product.
> So we Hippo have supported the users with this great template engine!
>
> I personally have experiences with integrating Spring MVC Framework for
> our delivery-tier product (and portlet bridges long time ago). I can
> also help with CodeMirror template support for Freemarker.
> I'd like to contribute these areas as well as documentation, testing, etc.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Woonsan
>
> [1]
> http://www.onehippo.org/library/concepts/web-application/hst-freemarker-support.html
> [2]
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/hippo-community/freemarker
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Woonsan Ko <wo...@apache.org>.
On 5/21/15 10:29 AM, John D. Ament wrote:
>> Currently I see three mentors and two committers at
>> > https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal, I'm not involved
>> > in that podling but it looks to me that additional committers might be
>> > more useful than more mentors.
>> >
>>From looking at their graphs, on github, they have 5 total contributors.
>
> https://github.com/freemarker/freemarker/graphs/contributors
>
> I'm wondering - would the others who aren't on the proposal be interested
> in joining the proposal?
Hi Folks,
My name is Woonsan Ko. I recently contributed a small feature (JSTL
function support in freemarker) to the project, so my name was there.
I'm really happy with this move to Apache incubation, and I'd like to
help this as a committer if possible.
I'm working at Hippo (http://www.onehippo.com), an open source Web CMS
company, and we Hippo have been integrating with Freemarker as our
default delivery tier templating engine. [1]
So our customers have been using Freemarker as the default templating
option on top of our product for long time as well. You can take a look
at our forum [2] to see how heavily they're using it with our product.
So we Hippo have supported the users with this great template engine!
I personally have experiences with integrating Spring MVC Framework for
our delivery-tier product (and portlet bridges long time ago). I can
also help with CodeMirror template support for Freemarker.
I'd like to contribute these areas as well as documentation, testing, etc.
Kind regards,
Woonsan
[1]
http://www.onehippo.org/library/concepts/web-application/hst-freemarker-support.html
[2] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/hippo-community/freemarker
>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org>.
I am another happy user of Freemarker. Calcite, Drill and Phoenix all use
it as a pre-processor, to stitch together SQL grammar files.
It’s worth reading http://freemarker.org/whoWeAre.html. It gives a sense of
how the Freemarker community has self-governed and evolved over its long
history, and also their diligence in addressing IP issues. I think it
indicates their suitability as an Apache project.
I think the "Relationships with Other Apache Products” section should note
that Freemarker has a similar purpose to Velocity. Not that similarity with
an existing project would prevent acceptance into Apache.
Julian
On May 21, 2015, at 11:44 AM, Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
The guys who you see on sf.net or GitHub with commit rights has moved
on to do different things, except me and one other guy who is mostly a
Web designer professionally. That's one of the reasons why I though
that I give it a shot, and see if being an ASF project makes the
project more visible/appealing for contributors. I don't know what the
experience with that is. Sometimes we get a patch from someone BTW,
but that doesn't make the sender a committer of course. Finding people
who will work on Freemarker for a longer time seems to be a tricky
business, despite that the user base is big. Well, MVC template
engines is not the hot topic nowadays, but they are still heavily
used.
Anyway, I will ping some earlier contributors then.
Regarding the other question, yes, there are ASF projects who build on
FreeMarker, like OFBiz for example. (And then of course Struts
supports it next to JSP and Velocity.)
--
Thanks,
Daniel Dekany
Thursday, May 21, 2015, 8:03:03 PM, Chris Nauroth wrote:
As a very satisfied Freemarker user, I'm excited to see this proposal!
I agree with the feedback that it would be helpful to have more
committers. Marmotta mentioned that they use it, so I wonder if you could
draw some interest from members of that community to join as initial
committers. Are there other Apache projects that already use Freemarker?
--Chris Nauroth
On 5/21/15, 9:44 AM, "jleroux@apache.org" <jl...@apache.org> wrote:
Le 21/05/2015 16:29, John D. Ament a écrit :
On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 10:11 AM Bertrand Delacretaz
<bd...@apache.org>
wrote:
Hi,
On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Sergio Fernández <wi...@apache.org>
wrote:
...If you'd need any other mentor, I'm happy to help there (I'm
Incubator PMC
and ASF Member)...
Currently I see three mentors and two committers at
https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal, I'm not involved
in that podling but it looks to me that additional committers might be
more useful than more mentors.
>From looking at their graphs, on github, they have 5 total
contributors.
https://github.com/freemarker/freemarker/graphs/contributors
I'm wondering - would the others who aren't on the proposal be
interested
in joining the proposal?
Actually the project is currently at SourceForge as you can see at
http://freemarker.org/ and the team is there
https://sourceforge.net/p/freemarker/wiki/Home/
I guess some members at least will be interested...
Jacques
PS: maybe a duplicate, I used my non a.o address on another email, sorry
for the noise in case
-Bertrand
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu>.
The guys who you see on sf.net or GitHub with commit rights has moved
on to do different things, except me and one other guy who is mostly a
Web designer professionally. That's one of the reasons why I though
that I give it a shot, and see if being an ASF project makes the
project more visible/appealing for contributors. I don't know what the
experience with that is. Sometimes we get a patch from someone BTW,
but that doesn't make the sender a committer of course. Finding people
who will work on Freemarker for a longer time seems to be a tricky
business, despite that the user base is big. Well, MVC template
engines is not the hot topic nowadays, but they are still heavily
used.
Anyway, I will ping some earlier contributors then.
Regarding the other question, yes, there are ASF projects who build on
FreeMarker, like OFBiz for example. (And then of course Struts
supports it next to JSP and Velocity.)
--
Thanks,
Daniel Dekany
Thursday, May 21, 2015, 8:03:03 PM, Chris Nauroth wrote:
> As a very satisfied Freemarker user, I'm excited to see this proposal!
>
> I agree with the feedback that it would be helpful to have more
> committers. Marmotta mentioned that they use it, so I wonder if you could
> draw some interest from members of that community to join as initial
> committers. Are there other Apache projects that already use Freemarker?
>
> --Chris Nauroth
>
>
>
>
> On 5/21/15, 9:44 AM, "jleroux@apache.org" <jl...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>>Le 21/05/2015 16:29, John D. Ament a écrit :
>>> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 10:11 AM Bertrand Delacretaz
>>><bd...@apache.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Sergio Fernández <wi...@apache.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> ...If you'd need any other mentor, I'm happy to help there (I'm
>>>> Incubator PMC
>>>>> and ASF Member)...
>>>> Currently I see three mentors and two committers at
>>>> https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal, I'm not involved
>>>> in that podling but it looks to me that additional committers might be
>>>> more useful than more mentors.
>>>>
>>> >From looking at their graphs, on github, they have 5 total
>>>contributors.
>>>
>>> https://github.com/freemarker/freemarker/graphs/contributors
>>>
>>> I'm wondering - would the others who aren't on the proposal be
>>>interested
>>> in joining the proposal?
>>
>>Actually the project is currently at SourceForge as you can see at
>>http://freemarker.org/ and the team is there
>>https://sourceforge.net/p/freemarker/wiki/Home/
>>I guess some members at least will be interested...
>>
>>Jacques
>>PS: maybe a duplicate, I used my non a.o address on another email, sorry
>>for the noise in case
>>
>>>
>>>> -Bertrand
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Chris Nauroth <cn...@hortonworks.com>.
As a very satisfied Freemarker user, I'm excited to see this proposal!
I agree with the feedback that it would be helpful to have more
committers. Marmotta mentioned that they use it, so I wonder if you could
draw some interest from members of that community to join as initial
committers. Are there other Apache projects that already use Freemarker?
--Chris Nauroth
On 5/21/15, 9:44 AM, "jleroux@apache.org" <jl...@apache.org> wrote:
>Le 21/05/2015 16:29, John D. Ament a écrit :
>> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 10:11 AM Bertrand Delacretaz
>><bd...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Sergio Fernández <wi...@apache.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>> ...If you'd need any other mentor, I'm happy to help there (I'm
>>> Incubator PMC
>>>> and ASF Member)...
>>> Currently I see three mentors and two committers at
>>> https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal, I'm not involved
>>> in that podling but it looks to me that additional committers might be
>>> more useful than more mentors.
>>>
>> >From looking at their graphs, on github, they have 5 total
>>contributors.
>>
>> https://github.com/freemarker/freemarker/graphs/contributors
>>
>> I'm wondering - would the others who aren't on the proposal be
>>interested
>> in joining the proposal?
>
>Actually the project is currently at SourceForge as you can see at
>http://freemarker.org/ and the team is there
>https://sourceforge.net/p/freemarker/wiki/Home/
>I guess some members at least will be interested...
>
>Jacques
>PS: maybe a duplicate, I used my non a.o address on another email, sorry
>for the noise in case
>
>>
>>> -Bertrand
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by "jleroux@apache.org" <jl...@apache.org>.
Le 21/05/2015 16:29, John D. Ament a écrit :
> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 10:11 AM Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Sergio Fernández <wi...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>> ...If you'd need any other mentor, I'm happy to help there (I'm
>> Incubator PMC
>>> and ASF Member)...
>> Currently I see three mentors and two committers at
>> https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal, I'm not involved
>> in that podling but it looks to me that additional committers might be
>> more useful than more mentors.
>>
> >From looking at their graphs, on github, they have 5 total contributors.
>
> https://github.com/freemarker/freemarker/graphs/contributors
>
> I'm wondering - would the others who aren't on the proposal be interested
> in joining the proposal?
Actually the project is currently at SourceForge as you can see at http://freemarker.org/ and the team is there
https://sourceforge.net/p/freemarker/wiki/Home/
I guess some members at least will be interested...
Jacques
PS: maybe a duplicate, I used my non a.o address on another email, sorry for the noise in case
>
>> -Bertrand
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by "John D. Ament" <jo...@apache.org>.
On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 10:11 AM Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Sergio Fernández <wi...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> > ...If you'd need any other mentor, I'm happy to help there (I'm
> Incubator PMC
> > and ASF Member)...
>
> Currently I see three mentors and two committers at
> https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal, I'm not involved
> in that podling but it looks to me that additional committers might be
> more useful than more mentors.
>
>From looking at their graphs, on github, they have 5 total contributors.
https://github.com/freemarker/freemarker/graphs/contributors
I'm wondering - would the others who aren't on the proposal be interested
in joining the proposal?
>
> -Bertrand
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu>.
It's kind of OT, but Freemarker *is* a single jar with no
dependencies. (All the dependencies are optional. Like if you don't
use it with Servlets, it wont look for Serlvet classes.)
Saturday, May 23, 2015, 1:17:47 AM, Julian Hyde wrote:
> Yes, I recently needed a lightweight templating engine (a single jar with
> no dependencies). I considered Freemarker, but rejected it. A
> freemarker-lite module would have hit the spot.
>
> Templating may not be sexy anymore, but it is useful for a wide variety of
> tasks, and it's not going away.
>
> Julian
>
>
> On May 22, 2015, at 4:04 PM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> As an interesting aside, increasing the scope of Freemarker might improve
> sexiness.
>
> Consider extending to be a Scala templating engine. Or some similar small
> effort that ropes in a new community.
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 12:43 PM, Jacopo Cappellato <
> jacopo.cappellato@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Some misc comments on the great feedback we have received so far (thanks
> to all for your help and interest):
>
> * Sergio, Ralph, we are happy to have you as mentors of Freemarker. I have
> edited the proposal document to include you in the mentors group; five
> mentors is plenty, so we should be good under this aspect. Jacques, you
> offered to mentor in another thread; thanks but for mentoring it's required
> to be a member of the IPMC or of the ASF
>
> * I agree with Bertrand and Ted that it will be mandatory for this project
> to build a larger community: in fact we are aware about this and are
> determined to work hard to grow an healthy (even if small) community, if we
> will be accepted in the Incubator; some good ideas have been proposed in
> this thread by John and Chris about how to do this and we will discuss
> other ideas as well
>
> * Julian and Ralph mentioned Velocity as a somewhat similar project; it is
> definitely true that there are similarities in scope (they are both Java
> template engines) but we don't think that merging them would be a good fit
> because there are big differences in the architecture, codebase, philosophy
> and history; as you have suggested we are going to include a sentence that
> explains the relationship with Velocity in our proposal
>
> Regards,
>
> Jacopo
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org>.
Yes, I recently needed a lightweight templating engine (a single jar with
no dependencies). I considered Freemarker, but rejected it. A
freemarker-lite module would have hit the spot.
Templating may not be sexy anymore, but it is useful for a wide variety of
tasks, and it's not going away.
Julian
On May 22, 2015, at 4:04 PM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
As an interesting aside, increasing the scope of Freemarker might improve
sexiness.
Consider extending to be a Scala templating engine. Or some similar small
effort that ropes in a new community.
On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 12:43 PM, Jacopo Cappellato <
jacopo.cappellato@gmail.com> wrote:
Some misc comments on the great feedback we have received so far (thanks
to all for your help and interest):
* Sergio, Ralph, we are happy to have you as mentors of Freemarker. I have
edited the proposal document to include you in the mentors group; five
mentors is plenty, so we should be good under this aspect. Jacques, you
offered to mentor in another thread; thanks but for mentoring it's required
to be a member of the IPMC or of the ASF
* I agree with Bertrand and Ted that it will be mandatory for this project
to build a larger community: in fact we are aware about this and are
determined to work hard to grow an healthy (even if small) community, if we
will be accepted in the Incubator; some good ideas have been proposed in
this thread by John and Chris about how to do this and we will discuss
other ideas as well
* Julian and Ralph mentioned Velocity as a somewhat similar project; it is
definitely true that there are similarities in scope (they are both Java
template engines) but we don't think that merging them would be a good fit
because there are big differences in the architecture, codebase, philosophy
and history; as you have suggested we are going to include a sentence that
explains the relationship with Velocity in our proposal
Regards,
Jacopo
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Guillaume Laforge <gl...@gmail.com>.
Or rather Apache Groovy :-)
2015-05-23 1:04 GMT+02:00 Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>:
> As an interesting aside, increasing the scope of Freemarker might improve
> sexiness.
>
> Consider extending to be a Scala templating engine. Or some similar small
> effort that ropes in a new community.
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 12:43 PM, Jacopo Cappellato <
> jacopo.cappellato@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Some misc comments on the great feedback we have received so far (thanks
> > to all for your help and interest):
> >
> > * Sergio, Ralph, we are happy to have you as mentors of Freemarker. I
> have
> > edited the proposal document to include you in the mentors group; five
> > mentors is plenty, so we should be good under this aspect. Jacques, you
> > offered to mentor in another thread; thanks but for mentoring it's
> required
> > to be a member of the IPMC or of the ASF
> >
> > * I agree with Bertrand and Ted that it will be mandatory for this
> project
> > to build a larger community: in fact we are aware about this and are
> > determined to work hard to grow an healthy (even if small) community, if
> we
> > will be accepted in the Incubator; some good ideas have been proposed in
> > this thread by John and Chris about how to do this and we will discuss
> > other ideas as well
> >
> > * Julian and Ralph mentioned Velocity as a somewhat similar project; it
> is
> > definitely true that there are similarities in scope (they are both Java
> > template engines) but we don't think that merging them would be a good
> fit
> > because there are big differences in the architecture, codebase,
> philosophy
> > and history; as you have suggested we are going to include a sentence
> that
> > explains the relationship with Velocity in our proposal
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Jacopo
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
> >
>
--
Guillaume Laforge
Groovy Project Manager
Product Ninja & Advocate at Restlet <http://restlet.com>
Blog: http://glaforge.appspot.com/
Social: @glaforge <http://twitter.com/glaforge> / Google+
<https://plus.google.com/u/0/114130972232398734985/posts>
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu>.
That's a good point. And these are also the things that are good fits
for new committers (as opposed to evolving the core). With similar
logic I'm looking for people who want to focus on improving Spring MVC
integration for example. Or even Sturts integration (last time I saw
it, it made no justice for FM). Now it might sounds like a chicken-egg
problem (if *I* don't do it, there will be no committers, etc.), but
of course I try to stick to core development in the little time I find
for Freemarker. So finding contributors for these kind of "extension"
and tooling stuff is one thing I hope for in this process.
Saturday, May 23, 2015, 1:04:57 AM, Ted Dunning wrote:
> As an interesting aside, increasing the scope of Freemarker might improve
> sexiness.
>
> Consider extending to be a Scala templating engine. Or some similar small
> effort that ropes in a new community.
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 12:43 PM, Jacopo Cappellato <
> jacopo.cappellato@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Some misc comments on the great feedback we have received so far (thanks
>> to all for your help and interest):
>>
>> * Sergio, Ralph, we are happy to have you as mentors of Freemarker. I have
>> edited the proposal document to include you in the mentors group; five
>> mentors is plenty, so we should be good under this aspect. Jacques, you
>> offered to mentor in another thread; thanks but for mentoring it's required
>> to be a member of the IPMC or of the ASF
>>
>> * I agree with Bertrand and Ted that it will be mandatory for this project
>> to build a larger community: in fact we are aware about this and are
>> determined to work hard to grow an healthy (even if small) community, if we
>> will be accepted in the Incubator; some good ideas have been proposed in
>> this thread by John and Chris about how to do this and we will discuss
>> other ideas as well
>>
>> * Julian and Ralph mentioned Velocity as a somewhat similar project; it is
>> definitely true that there are similarities in scope (they are both Java
>> template engines) but we don't think that merging them would be a good fit
>> because there are big differences in the architecture, codebase, philosophy
>> and history; as you have suggested we are going to include a sentence that
>> explains the relationship with Velocity in our proposal
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jacopo
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
--
Thanks,
Daniel Dekany
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>.
As an interesting aside, increasing the scope of Freemarker might improve
sexiness.
Consider extending to be a Scala templating engine. Or some similar small
effort that ropes in a new community.
On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 12:43 PM, Jacopo Cappellato <
jacopo.cappellato@gmail.com> wrote:
> Some misc comments on the great feedback we have received so far (thanks
> to all for your help and interest):
>
> * Sergio, Ralph, we are happy to have you as mentors of Freemarker. I have
> edited the proposal document to include you in the mentors group; five
> mentors is plenty, so we should be good under this aspect. Jacques, you
> offered to mentor in another thread; thanks but for mentoring it's required
> to be a member of the IPMC or of the ASF
>
> * I agree with Bertrand and Ted that it will be mandatory for this project
> to build a larger community: in fact we are aware about this and are
> determined to work hard to grow an healthy (even if small) community, if we
> will be accepted in the Incubator; some good ideas have been proposed in
> this thread by John and Chris about how to do this and we will discuss
> other ideas as well
>
> * Julian and Ralph mentioned Velocity as a somewhat similar project; it is
> definitely true that there are similarities in scope (they are both Java
> template engines) but we don't think that merging them would be a good fit
> because there are big differences in the architecture, codebase, philosophy
> and history; as you have suggested we are going to include a sentence that
> explains the relationship with Velocity in our proposal
>
> Regards,
>
> Jacopo
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Jacopo Cappellato <ja...@gmail.com>.
Some misc comments on the great feedback we have received so far (thanks to all for your help and interest):
* Sergio, Ralph, we are happy to have you as mentors of Freemarker. I have edited the proposal document to include you in the mentors group; five mentors is plenty, so we should be good under this aspect. Jacques, you offered to mentor in another thread; thanks but for mentoring it's required to be a member of the IPMC or of the ASF
* I agree with Bertrand and Ted that it will be mandatory for this project to build a larger community: in fact we are aware about this and are determined to work hard to grow an healthy (even if small) community, if we will be accepted in the Incubator; some good ideas have been proposed in this thread by John and Chris about how to do this and we will discuss other ideas as well
* Julian and Ralph mentioned Velocity as a somewhat similar project; it is definitely true that there are similarities in scope (they are both Java template engines) but we don't think that merging them would be a good fit because there are big differences in the architecture, codebase, philosophy and history; as you have suggested we are going to include a sentence that explains the relationship with Velocity in our proposal
Regards,
Jacopo
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>.
Incubation is a fine idea here. I think that the project is at high risk
of not making it to top-level because of the voting requirements, but if
the committer and PMC can be built, it should be a fine (quiet) project.
And it should never be viewed as a failure or even a problem for a project
to leave incubation in some other direction than as a top-level project.
Apache is right for some and not for others.
On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 6:44 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
wrote:
> I used to use Apache Velocity. However, it hasn’t had a release since 2010
> and the overall project activity has been minimal for years. As a
> consequence of that, and a feature that was missing, I recently switched to
> using Freemarker for some templating work I needed to do. The only reason I
> mention Velocity is I am wondering what relationship these two projects
> should have, if any. I am also concerned that if interest in development
> of Freemarker is decreasing is it going to suffer the same fate? I guess
> what I am wondering is if there is some way these two communities and/or
> technologies could combine?
>
> FWIW, I’d be happy to mentor this project. If I had the time I know I’d
> want to commit, but that has been in extremely short supply of late.
>
> Ralph
>
>
> > On May 21, 2015, at 4:38 PM, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 7:11 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
> > <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Sergio Fernández <wi...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >>> ...If you'd need any other mentor, I'm happy to help there (I'm
> Incubator PMC
> >>> and ASF Member)...
> >>
> >> Currently I see three mentors and two committers at
> >> https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal, I'm not involved
> >> in that podling but it looks to me that additional committers might be
> >> more useful than more mentors.
> >
> > 4 Mentors is a good number, though!
> >
> > It's true that there aren't many initial committers, but the proposal
> > addresses this issue at length.
> >
> > https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal#Known_Risks
> >
> > While it continues to have a large user base, the active developer
> > community has become rather small at this point, and we think that the
> > "Apache Way" governance model and being part of the ASF (together with
> > other projects that are already using Freemarker) would help to bring
> new
> > life and energy to the project to better support the maintenance and
> > improvements of the Freemarker codebase.
> >
> > I think this is a reasonable plan and definitely worth a shot at
> incubating.
> > The Incubator has a mixed history with podlings that start small, but
> > Freemarker has an advantage over many of those because it begins with a
> large
> > user base and wide adoption.
> >
> > Marvin Humphrey
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Jacopo Cappellato <ja...@gmail.com>.
On May 22, 2015, at 7:31 PM, Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
> Can the requirements for getting out from incubation successfully be
> quantified? For the kind of project like this?
I think that what Ted was referring to, when he mentioned "the voting requirements", is that a top level project, in order to operate properly and being able to publish releases, needs at least 3 positive votes from its PMC members.
Freemarker will definitely need to build a group of committers and PMC membesr and in my opinion the Incubator is the right place to be to build an healthy, even if small, community. And this is probably the only real challenge, and an exciting one, that this project will have to face in order to successfully graduate out of incubation.
Regards,
Jacopo
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu>.
Sorry, forgot to answer this... Of course, PR and social things are
important, so yes, if you can help in those, you are welcome!
Monday, June 8, 2015, 10:15:38 AM, Pierre Smits wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Building a community requires more than just contributors who focus on code.
> But also committers regarding project and product promotions (website, wiki,
> social media, etc).. As as contributor of the other kind I have experience
> in promoting both the project itself and its works I am willing to help out
> to get to a healthy and diverse and growing community.
>
> I am a PMC member of the Apache Directory project and a year long
> contributor of the Apache OFBiz project.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://apache-incubator-general.996316.n3.nabble.com/DISCUSS-Freemarker-Incubation-proposal-tp43872p44062.html
> Sent from the Apache Incubator - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
Hi All,
Building a community requires more than just contributors who focus on code.
But also committers regarding project and product promotions (website, wiki,
social media, etc).. As as contributor of the other kind I have experience
in promoting both the project itself and its works I am willing to help out
to get to a healthy and diverse and growing community.
I am a PMC member of the Apache Directory project and a year long
contributor of the Apache OFBiz project.
Best regards,
Pierre
--
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org>.
On 6/2/15 8:02 PM, Ralph Goers wrote:
> I would proceed with the plan that the project will succeed in
> graduating.
+1. Focus on the positive, and finding new community contributors.
Trying to incubate while regularly talking about "well, if we don't make
it, we're going to leave and do X" is not a welcoming feeling.
> Usually project names stay with the ASF. I am not sure what the
> policy would be for a project that failed to graduate. I would
> suspect the project could keep it after leaving. However, if the
> project fails to graduate the likelihood of it succeeding anywhere
> would be minimal.
The ASF owns all trademarks on behalf of our project communities. For
top level projects (TLPs), the intent is to keep all trademarks: as a
non-profit public charity, we have a duty to try to keep the reputation
of top level projects for the public good.
For Incubating projects, we explicitly note that they are *not* top
level projects, so the policy is different than for TLPs. If a podling
community fails to graduate, but is acting in good faith, the ASF would
be happy to arrange any trademark transfers back to the original owners.
We have had case(s) in the past where project donors with notable
trademarks asked for an explicit clause confirming the return of the
trademarks if Incubation fails, which we accepted, so that's OK.
In terms of the code, given that any code under SGA or developed during
incubation will be under the Apache license, of course the previous team
(or anyone else) is welcome to fork at any point.
- Shane
>
Ralph
>
>> On Jun 2, 2015, at 4:42 PM, Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
>>
>> That's certainly won't be a problem in reality, as Jacopo said.
>>
>> What I'm curious about is if what happens if Freemarker gets into the
>> Incubator but then sadly later fails to graduate, so then it has to
>> continue outside ASF, probably with the earlier owners. I guess then
>> we will have to fork the work done during incubation (or can that be
>> given back with some kind of SLG?), which is messy (complicates the
>> license permanently, right?), but doable. But we will need to get the
>> product name back too! Is that "promised" formally somewhere, or how
>> does that go? Well, let's hope no such thing will happen, but still, I
>> should know this.
>>
>> --
>> Thanks,
>> Daniel Dekany
>>
>>
>> Thursday, May 28, 2015, 11:39:17 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On Thursday, May 28, 2015, Jacopo Cappellato <ja...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> ...Should we move to the next step (that I think is starting a vote)?...
>>>
>>>
>>> I think so, with two comments:
>>>
>>> Having just two committers is very small but that can hopefully be solved
>>> during incubation.
>>>
>>> The proposal does not mention how the Freemarker name/trademark donation
>>> will be handled, if the copyright owners also own the name that won't be a
>>> problem. And anyway that can be solved during incubation, but if you can
>>> make sure before entering incubation that the name can be donated that's
>>> easier.
>>>
>>> -Bertrand
>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>.
I would proceed with the plan that the project will succeed in graduating.
Usually project names stay with the ASF. I am not sure what the policy would be for a project that failed to graduate. I would suspect the project could keep it after leaving. However, if the project fails to graduate the likelihood of it succeeding anywhere would be minimal.
Ralph
> On Jun 2, 2015, at 4:42 PM, Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
>
> That's certainly won't be a problem in reality, as Jacopo said.
>
> What I'm curious about is if what happens if Freemarker gets into the
> Incubator but then sadly later fails to graduate, so then it has to
> continue outside ASF, probably with the earlier owners. I guess then
> we will have to fork the work done during incubation (or can that be
> given back with some kind of SLG?), which is messy (complicates the
> license permanently, right?), but doable. But we will need to get the
> product name back too! Is that "promised" formally somewhere, or how
> does that go? Well, let's hope no such thing will happen, but still, I
> should know this.
>
> --
> Thanks,
> Daniel Dekany
>
>
> Thursday, May 28, 2015, 11:39:17 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Thursday, May 28, 2015, Jacopo Cappellato <ja...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> ...Should we move to the next step (that I think is starting a vote)?...
>>
>>
>> I think so, with two comments:
>>
>> Having just two committers is very small but that can hopefully be solved
>> during incubation.
>>
>> The proposal does not mention how the Freemarker name/trademark donation
>> will be handled, if the copyright owners also own the name that won't be a
>> problem. And anyway that can be solved during incubation, but if you can
>> make sure before entering incubation that the name can be donated that's
>> easier.
>>
>> -Bertrand
>>
>>>
>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu>.
That's certainly won't be a problem in reality, as Jacopo said.
What I'm curious about is if what happens if Freemarker gets into the
Incubator but then sadly later fails to graduate, so then it has to
continue outside ASF, probably with the earlier owners. I guess then
we will have to fork the work done during incubation (or can that be
given back with some kind of SLG?), which is messy (complicates the
license permanently, right?), but doable. But we will need to get the
product name back too! Is that "promised" formally somewhere, or how
does that go? Well, let's hope no such thing will happen, but still, I
should know this.
--
Thanks,
Daniel Dekany
Thursday, May 28, 2015, 11:39:17 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Thursday, May 28, 2015, Jacopo Cappellato <ja...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> ...Should we move to the next step (that I think is starting a vote)?...
>
>
> I think so, with two comments:
>
> Having just two committers is very small but that can hopefully be solved
> during incubation.
>
> The proposal does not mention how the Freemarker name/trademark donation
> will be handled, if the copyright owners also own the name that won't be a
> problem. And anyway that can be solved during incubation, but if you can
> make sure before entering incubation that the name can be donated that's
> easier.
>
> -Bertrand
>
>>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Jacopo Cappellato <ja...@gmail.com>.
Wow, thank you so much to all of you for the great feedback you have provided about this proposal and specifically about the community concerns (thank you Martin for raising this topic, it was good to address this here after it was briefly discussed at Apache Barcamp@Austin), license, releases: we have received super valuable information that will help a lot the Freemarker community.
I will prepare the email to start the vote by tomorrow.
Jacopo
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi,
On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 9:11 PM, Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
> A simple question regarding the SGA... at the bottom there's "List of
> software and other intellectual property covered by this agreement:".
> I wonder if we should have "Freemarker" under that,...
The best by far is to prepare archives of the code that's being
donated, at a public URL, and include the sha1 or other digests of
those archives in that software grant list. This makes it absolutely
clear what is being donated.
-Bertrand
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu>.
A simple question regarding the SGA... at the bottom there's "List of
software and other intellectual property covered by this agreement:".
I wonder if we should have "Freemarker" under that, or something like:
Freemarker (including the engine itself, also the Docgen and Site modules)
Because, the Freemarker project contains multiple projects
technically: Docgen (generates HTML from XDocBook), Site (generates
Web site from some XML-s), and the engine itself (freemarker.jar).
Only the last is released to the Maven Central Repo.
When people say Freemarker, they usually just mean the last artifact
(the engine). So I thought the SGA is ambiguous if we just say
"Freemarker".
--
Thanks,
Daniel Dekany
Wednesday, June 3, 2015, 2:11:29 AM, John D. Ament wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 8:07 PM Ralph Goers
> <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
> IMO, once the source code is migrated to the ASF you should not do
> any more releases outside the ASF. I would attempt to clear up as
> many IP issues as you can before entering but I believe several
> projects have resolved their IP issues while in the incubator. In
> the worst case some code may need to be rewritten.
>
>
> Agreed, considering the contributor list on the code base is small
> (5 contributors) with the bulk of it from you, it shouldn't be an
> issue. You'll want to check w/ your eventual mentors
>
> - Contributors/committers have ICLAs.
> - SGA passing ownership to the ASF
> - A thorough review of the code base validating things like
> headers, proper ownership are all transferred.
>
> It's one of the easier things to do, but typically neglected.
>
> John
>
> Ralph
>
>> On Jun 2, 2015, at 4:54 PM, Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
>>
>> But before that... a question. Let's say the voting has a positive
>> result. Can we still do Freemarker releases outside ASF (with the
>> current owners and source code repository) after that? For how long?
>> My concern is that when we are already in the incubator, we can't
>> release from it as far as ASF finds that there are unsettled IP
>> issues. Like if someone finds out that an SGL is needed from X who we
>> haven't seen in the last 15 years, that can take a while, which is OK,
>> but until that I can't do releases (and in general I can't be sure
>> what will happen with the work committed). Is it possible to only
>> enter incubation when there are no known blockers that would make
>> releases impossible? Or how does it work?
>>
>> --
>> Thanks,
>> Daniel Dekany
>>
>>
>> Thursday, May 28, 2015, 4:11:49 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 4:07 PM, Jacopo Cappellato
>>> <ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> ...PS: who should start the vote?..
>>>
>>> In general that's the role of the podling's champion.
>>>
>>> -Bertrand
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by "John D. Ament" <jo...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 8:07 PM Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
wrote:
> IMO, once the source code is migrated to the ASF you should not do any
> more releases outside the ASF. I would attempt to clear up as many IP
> issues as you can before entering but I believe several projects have
> resolved their IP issues while in the incubator. In the worst case some
> code may need to be rewritten.
>
>
Agreed, considering the contributor list on the code base is small (5
contributors) with the bulk of it from you, it shouldn't be an issue.
You'll want to check w/ your eventual mentors
- Contributors/committers have ICLAs.
- SGA passing ownership to the ASF
- A thorough review of the code base validating things like headers, proper
ownership are all transferred.
It's one of the easier things to do, but typically neglected.
John
> Ralph
>
> > On Jun 2, 2015, at 4:54 PM, Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
> >
> > But before that... a question. Let's say the voting has a positive
> > result. Can we still do Freemarker releases outside ASF (with the
> > current owners and source code repository) after that? For how long?
> > My concern is that when we are already in the incubator, we can't
> > release from it as far as ASF finds that there are unsettled IP
> > issues. Like if someone finds out that an SGL is needed from X who we
> > haven't seen in the last 15 years, that can take a while, which is OK,
> > but until that I can't do releases (and in general I can't be sure
> > what will happen with the work committed). Is it possible to only
> > enter incubation when there are no known blockers that would make
> > releases impossible? Or how does it work?
> >
> > --
> > Thanks,
> > Daniel Dekany
> >
> >
> > Thursday, May 28, 2015, 4:11:49 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 4:07 PM, Jacopo Cappellato
> >> <ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> ...PS: who should start the vote?..
> >>
> >> In general that's the role of the podling's champion.
> >>
> >> -Bertrand
> >>
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> >>
> >>
> >
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu>.
Thanks for the clarification! So this also means that if the mentors
can't find a problem now, then it's unlikely that we can't do a
releases from the incubator because of some new IP issues cropping up.
Good news.
Thursday, June 4, 2015, 9:16:45 AM, David Nalley wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 6:24 PM, Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
>> Wednesday, June 3, 2015, 5:29:40 PM, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>
>>> As soon as it can be done. The question is, why would you want to
>>> wait?
>>
>> I thought, maybe, after being voted in, but before actual incubation
>> starts, the legal guys at ASF start looking at the project. Or
>> something like that. Anyway, then I guess we just try to pile up as
>> many SGA-s as possible, and only then try voting, as it was suggested.
>>
>
> Generally speaking here's the order:
> Incubation vote concludes successfully
> 1. Migration of 'infrastructure' (source code repo, mailing lists,
> perhaps bug trackers)
> 2. Focus begins on resolving IP issues (this work is done by the
> project, and overseen by the mentors) in order to prepare for a
> release.
> 3. First release occurs
> ..... incubation continues.
>
> The legal affairs committee is generally not going to interact with a
> project unless a mentor or the project makes a request that requires
> them to. There is a relatively straightforward process for getting
> software grants dealt with.
>
> Going back to your earlier question - occasionally a project will make
> a release or perhaps even two under the old 'home' - but all of that
> energy is divergent from building up your new community and figuring
> out your way around the ASF.
>
> --David
>
--
Thanks,
Daniel Dekany
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 9:16 AM, David Nalley <da...@gnsa.us> wrote:
> ...occasionally a project will make
> a release or perhaps even two under the old 'home' ..
I was going to say that - Wicket is a good example of a project that
joined with a well-established community and processes, where it made
sense to make a few more releases outside of the ASF during
incubation.
As long as those releases are not confused with Apache releases that's
fine, but as David says the podling should be focused on actually
moving to Apache.
-Bertrand
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by David Nalley <da...@gnsa.us>.
On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 6:24 PM, Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
> Wednesday, June 3, 2015, 5:29:40 PM, Ralph Goers wrote:
>
>> As soon as it can be done. The question is, why would you want to
>> wait?
>
> I thought, maybe, after being voted in, but before actual incubation
> starts, the legal guys at ASF start looking at the project. Or
> something like that. Anyway, then I guess we just try to pile up as
> many SGA-s as possible, and only then try voting, as it was suggested.
>
Generally speaking here's the order:
Incubation vote concludes successfully
1. Migration of 'infrastructure' (source code repo, mailing lists,
perhaps bug trackers)
2. Focus begins on resolving IP issues (this work is done by the
project, and overseen by the mentors) in order to prepare for a
release.
3. First release occurs
..... incubation continues.
The legal affairs committee is generally not going to interact with a
project unless a mentor or the project makes a request that requires
them to. There is a relatively straightforward process for getting
software grants dealt with.
Going back to your earlier question - occasionally a project will make
a release or perhaps even two under the old 'home' - but all of that
energy is divergent from building up your new community and figuring
out your way around the ASF.
--David
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu>.
Wednesday, June 3, 2015, 5:29:40 PM, Ralph Goers wrote:
> As soon as it can be done. The question is, why would you want to
> wait?
I thought, maybe, after being voted in, but before actual incubation
starts, the legal guys at ASF start looking at the project. Or
something like that. Anyway, then I guess we just try to pile up as
many SGA-s as possible, and only then try voting, as it was suggested.
> The point is, you don’t want to get approval for the project
> and then have everyone lose interest because there is no code to work on.
>
> Ralph
>
>> On Jun 3, 2015, at 12:01 AM, Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
>>
>> So then I suppose my question can be reduced to: After the voting has
>> concluded with positive result (for entering incubation), when must we
>> migrate the source code to ASF?
>>
>> --
>> Thanks,
>> Daniel Dekany
>>
>>
>> Wednesday, June 3, 2015, 2:05:57 AM, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>
>>> IMO, once the source code is migrated to the ASF you should not do
>>> any more releases outside the ASF. I would attempt to clear up as
>>> many IP issues as you can before entering but I believe several
>>> projects have resolved their IP issues while in the incubator. In
>>> the worst case some code may need to be rewritten.
>>>
>>> Ralph
>>>
>>>> On Jun 2, 2015, at 4:54 PM, Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> But before that... a question. Let's say the voting has a positive
>>>> result. Can we still do Freemarker releases outside ASF (with the
>>>> current owners and source code repository) after that? For how long?
>>>> My concern is that when we are already in the incubator, we can't
>>>> release from it as far as ASF finds that there are unsettled IP
>>>> issues. Like if someone finds out that an SGL is needed from X who we
>>>> haven't seen in the last 15 years, that can take a while, which is OK,
>>>> but until that I can't do releases (and in general I can't be sure
>>>> what will happen with the work committed). Is it possible to only
>>>> enter incubation when there are no known blockers that would make
>>>> releases impossible? Or how does it work?
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Daniel Dekany
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thursday, May 28, 2015, 4:11:49 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 4:07 PM, Jacopo Cappellato
>>>>> <ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> ...PS: who should start the vote?..
>>>>>
>>>>> In general that's the role of the podling's champion.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Bertrand
--
Thanks,
Daniel Dekany
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>.
As soon as it can be done. The question is, why would you want to wait? The point is, you don’t want to get approval for the project and then have everyone lose interest because there is no code to work on.
Ralph
> On Jun 3, 2015, at 12:01 AM, Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
>
> So then I suppose my question can be reduced to: After the voting has
> concluded with positive result (for entering incubation), when must we
> migrate the source code to ASF?
>
> --
> Thanks,
> Daniel Dekany
>
>
> Wednesday, June 3, 2015, 2:05:57 AM, Ralph Goers wrote:
>
>> IMO, once the source code is migrated to the ASF you should not do
>> any more releases outside the ASF. I would attempt to clear up as
>> many IP issues as you can before entering but I believe several
>> projects have resolved their IP issues while in the incubator. In
>> the worst case some code may need to be rewritten.
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>>> On Jun 2, 2015, at 4:54 PM, Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
>>>
>>> But before that... a question. Let's say the voting has a positive
>>> result. Can we still do Freemarker releases outside ASF (with the
>>> current owners and source code repository) after that? For how long?
>>> My concern is that when we are already in the incubator, we can't
>>> release from it as far as ASF finds that there are unsettled IP
>>> issues. Like if someone finds out that an SGL is needed from X who we
>>> haven't seen in the last 15 years, that can take a while, which is OK,
>>> but until that I can't do releases (and in general I can't be sure
>>> what will happen with the work committed). Is it possible to only
>>> enter incubation when there are no known blockers that would make
>>> releases impossible? Or how does it work?
>>>
>>> --
>>> Thanks,
>>> Daniel Dekany
>>>
>>>
>>> Thursday, May 28, 2015, 4:11:49 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 4:07 PM, Jacopo Cappellato
>>>> <ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> ...PS: who should start the vote?..
>>>>
>>>> In general that's the role of the podling's champion.
>>>>
>>>> -Bertrand
>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu>.
So then I suppose my question can be reduced to: After the voting has
concluded with positive result (for entering incubation), when must we
migrate the source code to ASF?
--
Thanks,
Daniel Dekany
Wednesday, June 3, 2015, 2:05:57 AM, Ralph Goers wrote:
> IMO, once the source code is migrated to the ASF you should not do
> any more releases outside the ASF. I would attempt to clear up as
> many IP issues as you can before entering but I believe several
> projects have resolved their IP issues while in the incubator. In
> the worst case some code may need to be rewritten.
>
> Ralph
>
>> On Jun 2, 2015, at 4:54 PM, Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
>>
>> But before that... a question. Let's say the voting has a positive
>> result. Can we still do Freemarker releases outside ASF (with the
>> current owners and source code repository) after that? For how long?
>> My concern is that when we are already in the incubator, we can't
>> release from it as far as ASF finds that there are unsettled IP
>> issues. Like if someone finds out that an SGL is needed from X who we
>> haven't seen in the last 15 years, that can take a while, which is OK,
>> but until that I can't do releases (and in general I can't be sure
>> what will happen with the work committed). Is it possible to only
>> enter incubation when there are no known blockers that would make
>> releases impossible? Or how does it work?
>>
>> --
>> Thanks,
>> Daniel Dekany
>>
>>
>> Thursday, May 28, 2015, 4:11:49 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 4:07 PM, Jacopo Cappellato
>>> <ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> ...PS: who should start the vote?..
>>>
>>> In general that's the role of the podling's champion.
>>>
>>> -Bertrand
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>.
IMO, once the source code is migrated to the ASF you should not do any more releases outside the ASF. I would attempt to clear up as many IP issues as you can before entering but I believe several projects have resolved their IP issues while in the incubator. In the worst case some code may need to be rewritten.
Ralph
> On Jun 2, 2015, at 4:54 PM, Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
>
> But before that... a question. Let's say the voting has a positive
> result. Can we still do Freemarker releases outside ASF (with the
> current owners and source code repository) after that? For how long?
> My concern is that when we are already in the incubator, we can't
> release from it as far as ASF finds that there are unsettled IP
> issues. Like if someone finds out that an SGL is needed from X who we
> haven't seen in the last 15 years, that can take a while, which is OK,
> but until that I can't do releases (and in general I can't be sure
> what will happen with the work committed). Is it possible to only
> enter incubation when there are no known blockers that would make
> releases impossible? Or how does it work?
>
> --
> Thanks,
> Daniel Dekany
>
>
> Thursday, May 28, 2015, 4:11:49 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 4:07 PM, Jacopo Cappellato
>> <ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> ...PS: who should start the vote?..
>>
>> In general that's the role of the podling's champion.
>>
>> -Bertrand
>>
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>>
>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu>.
But before that... a question. Let's say the voting has a positive
result. Can we still do Freemarker releases outside ASF (with the
current owners and source code repository) after that? For how long?
My concern is that when we are already in the incubator, we can't
release from it as far as ASF finds that there are unsettled IP
issues. Like if someone finds out that an SGL is needed from X who we
haven't seen in the last 15 years, that can take a while, which is OK,
but until that I can't do releases (and in general I can't be sure
what will happen with the work committed). Is it possible to only
enter incubation when there are no known blockers that would make
releases impossible? Or how does it work?
--
Thanks,
Daniel Dekany
Thursday, May 28, 2015, 4:11:49 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 4:07 PM, Jacopo Cappellato
> <ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> ...PS: who should start the vote?..
>
> In general that's the role of the podling's champion.
>
> -Bertrand
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi,
On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 4:07 PM, Jacopo Cappellato
<ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...PS: who should start the vote?..
In general that's the role of the podling's champion.
-Bertrand
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Jacopo Cappellato <ja...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
On May 28, 2015, at 11:39 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Thursday, May 28, 2015, Jacopo Cappellato <ja...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> ...Should we move to the next step (that I think is starting a vote)?...
>
>
> I think so, with two comments:
>
> Having just two committers is very small but that can hopefully be solved
> during incubation.
Indeed this will be the main challenge that this project will have to tackle during incubation!
>
> The proposal does not mention how the Freemarker name/trademark donation
> will be handled, if the copyright owners also own the name that won't be a
> problem. And anyway that can be solved during incubation, but if you can
> make sure before entering incubation that the name can be donated that's
> easier.
I think this is the case and the process of requesting/filing the SLG to the three owners has been already initiated.
Thank you, Bertrand.
PS: who should start the vote? I guess someone already in the IPMC (we have 3 mentors that are already in it).
>
> -Bertrand
>
>>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi,
On Thursday, May 28, 2015, Jacopo Cappellato <ja...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> ...Should we move to the next step (that I think is starting a vote)?...
I think so, with two comments:
Having just two committers is very small but that can hopefully be solved
during incubation.
The proposal does not mention how the Freemarker name/trademark donation
will be handled, if the copyright owners also own the name that won't be a
problem. And anyway that can be solved during incubation, but if you can
make sure before entering incubation that the name can be donated that's
easier.
-Bertrand
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Jacopo Cappellato <ja...@gmail.com>.
Ok, I have updated the proposal to include the feedback received (there is a new paragraph about the relationship with Velocity, Commons and I have added Ralph and Sergio as mentors). Thanks to all of you.
Any other feedback? Should we move to the next step (that I think is starting a vote)?
Cheers,
Jacopo
On May 26, 2015, at 8:17 AM, Ralph Goers <Ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
> While that is certainly a valid option, I would think that would be a topic for determine how to exit the incubator.
>
> Ralph
>
>> On May 22, 2015, at 11:13 AM, Siegfried Goeschl <si...@it20one.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Daniel,
>>
>> regarding “lower bar for project sexiness and buzzwordyness” - another options would be using an existing ASF umbrella project, e.g. Apache Commons. There you find a lot “unsexy but heavily used stuff” … ;-)
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Siegfried Goeschl
>>
>>> On 22 May 2015, at 19:31, Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
>>>
>>> Technically (i.e., in source code), I don't think Velocity and
>>> Freemarker can share much. It seems that they kind of share fate
>>> though. Apparently, everyone has something more important to
>>> contribute to. And that's fine, I say, because what put these template
>>> engines into the spotlight 15(?) years ago was Web MVC, and legacy
>>> JSP's deficiencies to server that paradigm. It was a hot topic back
>>> then. But nowadays, just like in the case of Velocity (apparently),
>>> finding guys who want to hack this project for free after coding all
>>> day at the workplace, and instead of being with their families and all
>>> that, is, well... challenging. And it seems companies don't care to
>>> invest either by putting paid developers on it. (Certainly the same
>>> companies wouldn't be too happy if Freemarker is suddenly EOL-ed,
>>> though.) I guess there's some kind lower bar in project sexiness and
>>> buzzwordyness under which life just stops when it comes to
>>> contributions. Those same properties aren't needed for the project
>>> being heavily used though.
>>>
>>> So that's where we stand. But does it mean these projects should die?
>>> I don't think so. Does it mean that these projects are not for Apache?
>>> I don't know that, you tell me! Surely I don't want FM to go into
>>> incubation if failure is the most probable outcome. Can the
>>> requirements for getting out from incubation successfully be
>>> quantified? For the kind of project like this?
>>>
>>> --
>>> Thanks,
>>> Daniel Dekany
>>>
>>>
>>> Friday, May 22, 2015, 2:44:03 AM, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>
>>>> I used to use Apache Velocity. However, it hasn’t had a release
>>>> since 2010 and the overall project activity has been minimal for
>>>> years. As a consequence of that, and a feature that was missing, I
>>>> recently switched to using Freemarker for some templating work I
>>>> needed to do. The only reason I mention Velocity is I am wondering
>>>> what relationship these two projects should have, if any. I am also
>>>> concerned that if interest in development of Freemarker is
>>>> decreasing is it going to suffer the same fate? I guess what I am
>>>> wondering is if there is some way these two communities and/or technologies could combine?
>>>>
>>>> FWIW, I’d be happy to mentor this project. If I had the time I know
>>>> I’d want to commit, but that has been in extremely short supply of late.
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On May 21, 2015, at 4:38 PM, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 7:11 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
>>>>> <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Sergio Fernández <wi...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> ...If you'd need any other mentor, I'm happy to help there (I'm Incubator PMC
>>>>>>> and ASF Member)...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Currently I see three mentors and two committers at
>>>>>> https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal, I'm not involved
>>>>>> in that podling but it looks to me that additional committers might be
>>>>>> more useful than more mentors.
>>>>>
>>>>> 4 Mentors is a good number, though!
>>>>>
>>>>> It's true that there aren't many initial committers, but the proposal
>>>>> addresses this issue at length.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal#Known_Risks
>>>>>
>>>>> While it continues to have a large user base, the active developer
>>>>> community has become rather small at this point, and we think that the
>>>>> "Apache Way" governance model and being part of the ASF (together with
>>>>> other projects that are already using Freemarker) would help to bring new
>>>>> life and energy to the project to better support the maintenance and
>>>>> improvements of the Freemarker codebase.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think this is a reasonable plan and definitely worth a shot at incubating.
>>>>> The Incubator has a mixed history with podlings that start small, but
>>>>> Freemarker has an advantage over many of those because it begins with a large
>>>>> user base and wide adoption.
>>>>>
>>>>> Marvin Humphrey
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>
>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>.
While that is certainly a valid option, I would think that would be a topic for determine how to exit the incubator.
Ralph
> On May 22, 2015, at 11:13 AM, Siegfried Goeschl <si...@it20one.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Daniel,
>
> regarding “lower bar for project sexiness and buzzwordyness” - another options would be using an existing ASF umbrella project, e.g. Apache Commons. There you find a lot “unsexy but heavily used stuff” … ;-)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Siegfried Goeschl
>
>> On 22 May 2015, at 19:31, Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
>>
>> Technically (i.e., in source code), I don't think Velocity and
>> Freemarker can share much. It seems that they kind of share fate
>> though. Apparently, everyone has something more important to
>> contribute to. And that's fine, I say, because what put these template
>> engines into the spotlight 15(?) years ago was Web MVC, and legacy
>> JSP's deficiencies to server that paradigm. It was a hot topic back
>> then. But nowadays, just like in the case of Velocity (apparently),
>> finding guys who want to hack this project for free after coding all
>> day at the workplace, and instead of being with their families and all
>> that, is, well... challenging. And it seems companies don't care to
>> invest either by putting paid developers on it. (Certainly the same
>> companies wouldn't be too happy if Freemarker is suddenly EOL-ed,
>> though.) I guess there's some kind lower bar in project sexiness and
>> buzzwordyness under which life just stops when it comes to
>> contributions. Those same properties aren't needed for the project
>> being heavily used though.
>>
>> So that's where we stand. But does it mean these projects should die?
>> I don't think so. Does it mean that these projects are not for Apache?
>> I don't know that, you tell me! Surely I don't want FM to go into
>> incubation if failure is the most probable outcome. Can the
>> requirements for getting out from incubation successfully be
>> quantified? For the kind of project like this?
>>
>> --
>> Thanks,
>> Daniel Dekany
>>
>>
>> Friday, May 22, 2015, 2:44:03 AM, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>
>>> I used to use Apache Velocity. However, it hasn’t had a release
>>> since 2010 and the overall project activity has been minimal for
>>> years. As a consequence of that, and a feature that was missing, I
>>> recently switched to using Freemarker for some templating work I
>>> needed to do. The only reason I mention Velocity is I am wondering
>>> what relationship these two projects should have, if any. I am also
>>> concerned that if interest in development of Freemarker is
>>> decreasing is it going to suffer the same fate? I guess what I am
>>> wondering is if there is some way these two communities and/or technologies could combine?
>>>
>>> FWIW, I’d be happy to mentor this project. If I had the time I know
>>> I’d want to commit, but that has been in extremely short supply of late.
>>>
>>> Ralph
>>>
>>>
>>>> On May 21, 2015, at 4:38 PM, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 7:11 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
>>>> <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Sergio Fernández <wi...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>> ...If you'd need any other mentor, I'm happy to help there (I'm Incubator PMC
>>>>>> and ASF Member)...
>>>>>
>>>>> Currently I see three mentors and two committers at
>>>>> https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal, I'm not involved
>>>>> in that podling but it looks to me that additional committers might be
>>>>> more useful than more mentors.
>>>>
>>>> 4 Mentors is a good number, though!
>>>>
>>>> It's true that there aren't many initial committers, but the proposal
>>>> addresses this issue at length.
>>>>
>>>> https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal#Known_Risks
>>>>
>>>> While it continues to have a large user base, the active developer
>>>> community has become rather small at this point, and we think that the
>>>> "Apache Way" governance model and being part of the ASF (together with
>>>> other projects that are already using Freemarker) would help to bring new
>>>> life and energy to the project to better support the maintenance and
>>>> improvements of the Freemarker codebase.
>>>>
>>>> I think this is a reasonable plan and definitely worth a shot at incubating.
>>>> The Incubator has a mixed history with podlings that start small, but
>>>> Freemarker has an advantage over many of those because it begins with a large
>>>> user base and wide adoption.
>>>>
>>>> Marvin Humphrey
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Siegfried Goeschl <si...@it20one.com>.
Hi Daniel,
regarding “lower bar for project sexiness and buzzwordyness” - another options would be using an existing ASF umbrella project, e.g. Apache Commons. There you find a lot “unsexy but heavily used stuff” … ;-)
Cheers,
Siegfried Goeschl
> On 22 May 2015, at 19:31, Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
>
> Technically (i.e., in source code), I don't think Velocity and
> Freemarker can share much. It seems that they kind of share fate
> though. Apparently, everyone has something more important to
> contribute to. And that's fine, I say, because what put these template
> engines into the spotlight 15(?) years ago was Web MVC, and legacy
> JSP's deficiencies to server that paradigm. It was a hot topic back
> then. But nowadays, just like in the case of Velocity (apparently),
> finding guys who want to hack this project for free after coding all
> day at the workplace, and instead of being with their families and all
> that, is, well... challenging. And it seems companies don't care to
> invest either by putting paid developers on it. (Certainly the same
> companies wouldn't be too happy if Freemarker is suddenly EOL-ed,
> though.) I guess there's some kind lower bar in project sexiness and
> buzzwordyness under which life just stops when it comes to
> contributions. Those same properties aren't needed for the project
> being heavily used though.
>
> So that's where we stand. But does it mean these projects should die?
> I don't think so. Does it mean that these projects are not for Apache?
> I don't know that, you tell me! Surely I don't want FM to go into
> incubation if failure is the most probable outcome. Can the
> requirements for getting out from incubation successfully be
> quantified? For the kind of project like this?
>
> --
> Thanks,
> Daniel Dekany
>
>
> Friday, May 22, 2015, 2:44:03 AM, Ralph Goers wrote:
>
>> I used to use Apache Velocity. However, it hasn’t had a release
>> since 2010 and the overall project activity has been minimal for
>> years. As a consequence of that, and a feature that was missing, I
>> recently switched to using Freemarker for some templating work I
>> needed to do. The only reason I mention Velocity is I am wondering
>> what relationship these two projects should have, if any. I am also
>> concerned that if interest in development of Freemarker is
>> decreasing is it going to suffer the same fate? I guess what I am
>> wondering is if there is some way these two communities and/or technologies could combine?
>>
>> FWIW, I’d be happy to mentor this project. If I had the time I know
>> I’d want to commit, but that has been in extremely short supply of late.
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>>
>>> On May 21, 2015, at 4:38 PM, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 7:11 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
>>> <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Sergio Fernández <wi...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>> ...If you'd need any other mentor, I'm happy to help there (I'm Incubator PMC
>>>>> and ASF Member)...
>>>>
>>>> Currently I see three mentors and two committers at
>>>> https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal, I'm not involved
>>>> in that podling but it looks to me that additional committers might be
>>>> more useful than more mentors.
>>>
>>> 4 Mentors is a good number, though!
>>>
>>> It's true that there aren't many initial committers, but the proposal
>>> addresses this issue at length.
>>>
>>> https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal#Known_Risks
>>>
>>> While it continues to have a large user base, the active developer
>>> community has become rather small at this point, and we think that the
>>> "Apache Way" governance model and being part of the ASF (together with
>>> other projects that are already using Freemarker) would help to bring new
>>> life and energy to the project to better support the maintenance and
>>> improvements of the Freemarker codebase.
>>>
>>> I think this is a reasonable plan and definitely worth a shot at incubating.
>>> The Incubator has a mixed history with podlings that start small, but
>>> Freemarker has an advantage over many of those because it begins with a large
>>> user base and wide adoption.
>>>
>>> Marvin Humphrey
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
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>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu>.
Technically (i.e., in source code), I don't think Velocity and
Freemarker can share much. It seems that they kind of share fate
though. Apparently, everyone has something more important to
contribute to. And that's fine, I say, because what put these template
engines into the spotlight 15(?) years ago was Web MVC, and legacy
JSP's deficiencies to server that paradigm. It was a hot topic back
then. But nowadays, just like in the case of Velocity (apparently),
finding guys who want to hack this project for free after coding all
day at the workplace, and instead of being with their families and all
that, is, well... challenging. And it seems companies don't care to
invest either by putting paid developers on it. (Certainly the same
companies wouldn't be too happy if Freemarker is suddenly EOL-ed,
though.) I guess there's some kind lower bar in project sexiness and
buzzwordyness under which life just stops when it comes to
contributions. Those same properties aren't needed for the project
being heavily used though.
So that's where we stand. But does it mean these projects should die?
I don't think so. Does it mean that these projects are not for Apache?
I don't know that, you tell me! Surely I don't want FM to go into
incubation if failure is the most probable outcome. Can the
requirements for getting out from incubation successfully be
quantified? For the kind of project like this?
--
Thanks,
Daniel Dekany
Friday, May 22, 2015, 2:44:03 AM, Ralph Goers wrote:
> I used to use Apache Velocity. However, it hasn’t had a release
> since 2010 and the overall project activity has been minimal for
> years. As a consequence of that, and a feature that was missing, I
> recently switched to using Freemarker for some templating work I
> needed to do. The only reason I mention Velocity is I am wondering
> what relationship these two projects should have, if any. I am also
> concerned that if interest in development of Freemarker is
> decreasing is it going to suffer the same fate? I guess what I am
> wondering is if there is some way these two communities and/or technologies could combine?
>
> FWIW, I’d be happy to mentor this project. If I had the time I know
> I’d want to commit, but that has been in extremely short supply of late.
>
> Ralph
>
>
>> On May 21, 2015, at 4:38 PM, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 7:11 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
>> <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Sergio Fernández <wi...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>> ...If you'd need any other mentor, I'm happy to help there (I'm Incubator PMC
>>>> and ASF Member)...
>>>
>>> Currently I see three mentors and two committers at
>>> https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal, I'm not involved
>>> in that podling but it looks to me that additional committers might be
>>> more useful than more mentors.
>>
>> 4 Mentors is a good number, though!
>>
>> It's true that there aren't many initial committers, but the proposal
>> addresses this issue at length.
>>
>> https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal#Known_Risks
>>
>> While it continues to have a large user base, the active developer
>> community has become rather small at this point, and we think that the
>> "Apache Way" governance model and being part of the ASF (together with
>> other projects that are already using Freemarker) would help to bring new
>> life and energy to the project to better support the maintenance and
>> improvements of the Freemarker codebase.
>>
>> I think this is a reasonable plan and definitely worth a shot at incubating.
>> The Incubator has a mixed history with podlings that start small, but
>> Freemarker has an advantage over many of those because it begins with a large
>> user base and wide adoption.
>>
>> Marvin Humphrey
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>.
I used to use Apache Velocity. However, it hasn’t had a release since 2010 and the overall project activity has been minimal for years. As a consequence of that, and a feature that was missing, I recently switched to using Freemarker for some templating work I needed to do. The only reason I mention Velocity is I am wondering what relationship these two projects should have, if any. I am also concerned that if interest in development of Freemarker is decreasing is it going to suffer the same fate? I guess what I am wondering is if there is some way these two communities and/or technologies could combine?
FWIW, I’d be happy to mentor this project. If I had the time I know I’d want to commit, but that has been in extremely short supply of late.
Ralph
> On May 21, 2015, at 4:38 PM, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
>
> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 7:11 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
> <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Sergio Fernández <wi...@apache.org> wrote:
>>> ...If you'd need any other mentor, I'm happy to help there (I'm Incubator PMC
>>> and ASF Member)...
>>
>> Currently I see three mentors and two committers at
>> https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal, I'm not involved
>> in that podling but it looks to me that additional committers might be
>> more useful than more mentors.
>
> 4 Mentors is a good number, though!
>
> It's true that there aren't many initial committers, but the proposal
> addresses this issue at length.
>
> https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal#Known_Risks
>
> While it continues to have a large user base, the active developer
> community has become rather small at this point, and we think that the
> "Apache Way" governance model and being part of the ASF (together with
> other projects that are already using Freemarker) would help to bring new
> life and energy to the project to better support the maintenance and
> improvements of the Freemarker codebase.
>
> I think this is a reasonable plan and definitely worth a shot at incubating.
> The Incubator has a mixed history with podlings that start small, but
> Freemarker has an advantage over many of those because it begins with a large
> user base and wide adoption.
>
> Marvin Humphrey
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>.
On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 7:11 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
<bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Sergio Fernández <wi...@apache.org> wrote:
>> ...If you'd need any other mentor, I'm happy to help there (I'm Incubator PMC
>> and ASF Member)...
>
> Currently I see three mentors and two committers at
> https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal, I'm not involved
> in that podling but it looks to me that additional committers might be
> more useful than more mentors.
4 Mentors is a good number, though!
It's true that there aren't many initial committers, but the proposal
addresses this issue at length.
https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal#Known_Risks
While it continues to have a large user base, the active developer
community has become rather small at this point, and we think that the
"Apache Way" governance model and being part of the ASF (together with
other projects that are already using Freemarker) would help to bring new
life and energy to the project to better support the maintenance and
improvements of the Freemarker codebase.
I think this is a reasonable plan and definitely worth a shot at incubating.
The Incubator has a mixed history with podlings that start small, but
Freemarker has an advantage over many of those because it begins with a large
user base and wide adoption.
Marvin Humphrey
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi,
On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Sergio Fernández <wi...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...If you'd need any other mentor, I'm happy to help there (I'm Incubator PMC
> and ASF Member)...
Currently I see three mentors and two committers at
https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal, I'm not involved
in that podling but it looks to me that additional committers might be
more useful than more mentors.
-Bertrand
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Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Posted by Sergio Fernández <wi...@apache.org>.
In Marmotta we extended Freemarker to be able to use LDPath expressions
inside the template language. So good to see the project moving in ASF :-)
If you'd need any other mentor, I'm happy to help there (I'm Incubator PMC
and ASF Member).
Cheers,
On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 3:23 PM, Jacopo Cappellato <
jacopo.cappellato@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> my name is Jacopo Cappellato, I am an ASF member and the PMC chair of
> Apache OFBiz.
>
> As the proposal's champion, I would like to open up a discussion thread on
> the proposal for Freemarker to join ASF as an incubating project.
>
> The proposal is available here:
>
> https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal
>
> I would like to thank the co-authors Dániel Dékány, David Jones and
> Jean-Frederic Clere.
>
> Thanks in advance for your time!
>
> Jacopo Cappellato
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
--
Sergio Fernández
Partner Technology Manager
Redlink GmbH
m: +43 6602747925
e: sergio.fernandez@redlink.co
w: http://redlink.co