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Posted to docs-dev@perl.apache.org by Thomas Klausner <do...@zsi.at> on 2002/03/02 22:49:55 UTC
some patches
Hi!
here are some things I just did:
http://domm.zsi.at/modperl-site-domm/
* removed some already solved things out of TODO
* removed the nbsp hack in tail, it seems to work without it in all browsers
I have access to (Mozilla, Opera, IE5, NS4)
* I moved some stuff in style.css around a little bit to remove a anoying
effect in Opera with hover: in the original version, the size of the text
would change when hovering. I now moved font-size and font-family into the
base style def (i.e. td.download, div.nonselectedmenuitem,
div.selectedmenuitem) and let the a:* styles inherit from it. also saves
some bytes ...
* As I don't really like any of the download-pictures, I re-did the old text
only design, what do you think?
I tested before and after the patch with all browsers (see above), looks
great on all of them!
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Re: some patches
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
Thomas Klausner wrote:
> Hi!
>
> here are some things I just did:
> http://domm.zsi.at/modperl-site-domm/
>
> * removed some already solved things out of TODO
> * removed the nbsp hack in tail, it seems to work without it in all browsers
> I have access to (Mozilla, Opera, IE5, NS4)
> * I moved some stuff in style.css around a little bit to remove a anoying
> effect in Opera with hover: in the original version, the size of the text
> would change when hovering. I now moved font-size and font-family into the
> base style def (i.e. td.download, div.nonselectedmenuitem,
> div.selectedmenuitem) and let the a:* styles inherit from it. also saves
> some bytes ...
committed, thanks!
> * As I don't really like any of the download-pictures, I re-did the old text
> only design, what do you think?
well, if we won't come up with some nicer solution, we will eventually
go with the text. so I'm just holding onto this patch for awhile.
What I don't like about using text here, is that we end up having three
elements in the nav bar which are so different. On the other hand we
have the download widgets followed by text anyway (the size), so may be
it's OK.
So what others think? or have ideas for new images which will play
nicely with the existing elements?
> I tested before and after the patch with all browsers (see above), looks
> great on all of them!
fantastic!
for some reason, your site thomas on NS-4.79/linux won't display images.
It does display them separately if I go to 'view image'.
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RE: search box
Posted by "Jonathan M. Hollin" <ne...@digital-word.com>.
:: > Huh??? Can you back up that statement?
::
:: heh :) I'm talking about winFU users mainly, I saw quite a few at
:: "work". Unfortunately a majority of them are clueless and don't even
:: know they can resize windows.
::
:: So i guess it was blatant to name it a fact, so please
:: s/fact/personal observation/ multiplied by the "fact" that there are
:: many clueless winFU users out there. ;) Correct me if I'm wrong here.
Stas, please don't misunderstand me, I wasn't challenging you. I was
hoping that you COULD have pointed me to evidence of this behaviour. I
could have used that to back up a potential argument here.
:: I guess I'm very wrong if we are talking about mod_perl
:: users. It's hard
:: to be clueless and mod_perl user at the same time. ;)
+1 :-)
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Re: search box
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
Jonathan M. Hollin wrote:
> :: Also consider the fact that most people
> :: don't resize their browsers. Usually they minimize/maximize
> :: them only.
>
> Huh??? Can you back up that statement?
heh :) I'm talking about winFU users mainly, I saw quite a few at
"work". Unfortunately a majority of them are clueless and don't even
know they can resize windows.
So i guess it was blatant to name it a fact, so please
s/fact/personal observation/ multiplied by the "fact" that there are
many clueless winFU users out there. ;) Correct me if I'm wrong here.
I guess I'm very wrong if we are talking about mod_perl users. It's hard
to be clueless and mod_perl user at the same time. ;)
Then I'm simply wrong ;)
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RE: search box
Posted by "Jonathan M. Hollin" <ne...@digital-word.com>.
:: Also consider the fact that most people
:: don't resize their browsers. Usually they minimize/maximize
:: them only.
Huh??? Can you back up that statement?
:: I'm -1 on using @import trick because I don't like the idea
:: of maintaining two versions of a big file like style.css is.
:: It also requires JS to figure out the useragent. If many
:: people complain we will reconsider I guess.
-1 on @import here too.
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Re: search box
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
Bill Moseley wrote:
> At 03:34 PM 03/05/02 +0100, Thomas Klausner wrote:
>
>>On Tue, Mar 05, 2002 at 06:25:56AM -0800, Bill Moseley wrote:
>>
>>>Oh, I just resized in NS4 and see that the site still falls apart -- that
>>>is all the text in the content section ends up in a single narrow long
>>>column. Was that decided that is also a fact of life? Maybe a solution
>>>there it so use javascript -- reload on resize?
>>>
>>Thats a bug in NS4. I don't think it's a good idea to add the reload on
>>resize, thats going to affect all users (some pages are quite long and could
>>take a while to reload, and it's causing unneeded traffic), just to solve
>>a problem that's caused by someone else (i.e. NS4).
>>
>
> Sorry, I was joking about the reload on resize. I forgot to add ;).
>
> So it's acceptable behavior?
>
> That bug is from using CSS to format. Are there CSS tweaks that could
> solve that in NS4? That is, could we use the @import trick to load a
> different CSS for NS4 that would avoid or reduce the problem?
Sorry, I don't know of any. Also consider the fact that most people
don't resize their browsers. Usually they minimize/maximize them only.
Of course I'm not against a better solution :)
> Or have we decided that the number of people using NS4 *and* resizing will
> be so small that we don't need to worry about it?
I'm -1 on using @import trick because I don't like the idea of
maintaining two versions of a big file like style.css is. It also requires
JS to figure out the useragent.
If many people complain we will reconsider I guess.
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Re: search box
Posted by Bill Moseley <mo...@hank.org>.
At 03:34 PM 03/05/02 +0100, Thomas Klausner wrote:
>On Tue, Mar 05, 2002 at 06:25:56AM -0800, Bill Moseley wrote:
>> Oh, I just resized in NS4 and see that the site still falls apart -- that
>> is all the text in the content section ends up in a single narrow long
>> column. Was that decided that is also a fact of life? Maybe a solution
>> there it so use javascript -- reload on resize?
>
>Thats a bug in NS4. I don't think it's a good idea to add the reload on
>resize, thats going to affect all users (some pages are quite long and could
>take a while to reload, and it's causing unneeded traffic), just to solve
>a problem that's caused by someone else (i.e. NS4).
Sorry, I was joking about the reload on resize. I forgot to add ;).
So it's acceptable behavior?
That bug is from using CSS to format. Are there CSS tweaks that could
solve that in NS4? That is, could we use the @import trick to load a
different CSS for NS4 that would avoid or reduce the problem?
Or have we decided that the number of people using NS4 *and* resizing will
be so small that we don't need to worry about it?
Thanks,
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Re: search box
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
Jonathan M. Hollin wrote:
> :: Also please check that the look and feel hasn't changed on
> :: your favorite
> :: browsers.
>
> Checked with:
>
> IE 6 on Win2K --- +1
> NS 6 on Win2K --- +1
> IE5 on Mac (OS9) --- +1
> NS 4.73 on Mac (OS9) --- +1
> Mozilla 0.9.2.1 on Linux (7.2) --- (ok but the "Welcome to the mod_perl
> world" title bar is condensed into a small box whereas, in all my other
> tests, it spans the available width)
Should be OK with the latest mozilla. I've
Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.8) Gecko/20020204 and
it's fine.
> Galeon 0.11.3 on Linux (7.2) --- same as Mozilla
> NS 4.78 on Linux (7.2) --- +1
>
> I'd say we'd got a good, graceful site here...
;)
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RE: search box
Posted by "Jonathan M. Hollin" <ne...@digital-word.com>.
:: Also please check that the look and feel hasn't changed on
:: your favorite
:: browsers.
Checked with:
IE 6 on Win2K --- +1
NS 6 on Win2K --- +1
IE5 on Mac (OS9) --- +1
NS 4.73 on Mac (OS9) --- +1
Mozilla 0.9.2.1 on Linux (7.2) --- (ok but the "Welcome to the mod_perl
world" title bar is condensed into a small box whereas, in all my other
tests, it spans the available width)
Galeon 0.11.3 on Linux (7.2) --- same as Mozilla
NS 4.78 on Linux (7.2) --- +1
I'd say we'd got a good, graceful site here...
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Re: search box
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
> :: Let's simply try to use autofocus and if people complain we
> :: will remove
> :: it. Though I agree with Allan that we need to use named
> :: property, rather
> :: than numerical order
> ::
> :: onLoad="document.search_form.query.focus()"
>
> +1
Done. http://www.apache.org/~stas/modperl-site/
Also please check that the look and feel hasn't changed on your favorite
browsers. I've moved the start of the form to the search template. It
seems that it doesn't break anything. I've placed the <form ...> just
before the table formatting the search widget. Now we don't have a
duplication of the same thing in the templates 'page' and 'index'.
Bill, I'll take care of the actual search soonish. Luckily the design
issues are orthogonal to the search's functionality.
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RE: search box
Posted by "Jonathan M. Hollin" <ne...@digital-word.com>.
:: ok, let's not argue about this and concentrate on more
:: important thing.
Well said.
:: Let's simply try to use autofocus and if people complain we
:: will remove
:: it. Though I agree with Allan that we need to use named
:: property, rather
:: than numerical order
::
:: onLoad="document.search_form.query.focus()"
+1
:: Because there are browser where using the image as a submit button,
:: breaks the 'Enter to Submit' feature. Again if you think we
:: want to give
:: it a try, let's do it.
-1
:: I suggest to always use the current context for searching
:: and to have no
:: checkboxes on every page. And display all the options on the
:: dedicated
:: search page.
+1
:: It may confuse a few people in first place, but if we
:: clearly state on
:: the results page that 'You have searched FOO section', followed by a
:: search form with all the options in it, users will learn
:: fast that if
:: they want to have a global search they can do it from / or
:: by going to
:: the search page.
+1 I think this is logical and intuitive enough (and I'm quite picky
:-) ).
:: To me now it's a fact of life. Our goal is to make the site
:: look great in modern and/or properly implemented browsers
:: and be usable in old and/or broken browsers. Currently NS4
:: is quite usable. It's definitely not pretty.
+1 How much longer will NS4 survive anyhow?
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Re: search box
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
Bill Moseley wrote:
> I don't care about the javascript. I go to google 20 or 30 times a day and
> it's nice that I can just type and hit enter. If I really cared, I'd just
> add a google search box to my browser, I suppose, and save the trip to
> google in the first place. And I doubt having to click on the search box
> will cause anyone any grief at the mod_perl site.
>
> I do think it's a bit much to argue that because some javascript is bad all
> javascript is bad - people that think that way can just turn off javascript
> in their client. I think we will find that the CSS stuff is probably less
> supported than a simple focus() javascript bit. But I would support a
> pop-up window saying we are a pop-up window free site.
ok, let's not argue about this and concentrate on more important thing.
Let's simply try to use autofocus and if people complain we will remove
it. Though I agree with Allan that we need to use named property, rather
than numerical order
onLoad="document.search_form.query.focus()"
> I do think standard form buttons are a bit big and ugly. If that search
> box is going to be on the same line as the other widgets I agree it would
> be nice to make it look the same.
>
> Sorry if I missed something, but why not use <input type="image" ...>
> submit button? Wouldn't that make it possible to make the search form look
> more like the other links on that same line?
Because there are browser where using the image as a submit button,
breaks the 'Enter to Submit' feature. Again if you think we want to give
it a try, let's do it.
in that case we need a button which looks the same as the prev|next
buttons. let's say that the query is white bg, so the search button
should use the dark bg. Anybody?
> There was also talk of having an option to limit the search to just that
> area of the document tree, which I've implemented on the search page, but
> we would need a way to pick the type of search on each page, too. That
> either means a checkbox, or a second submit button. Might be able to use
> two submit buttons as graphic images in a more attractive (less obtrusive)
> way than a real check box and a real submit form button.
I suggest to always use the current context for searching and to have no
checkboxes on every page. And display all the options on the dedicated
search page.
It may confuse a few people in first place, but if we clearly state on
the results page that 'You have searched FOO section', followed by a
search form with all the options in it, users will learn fast that if
they want to have a global search they can do it from / or by going to
the search page.
I'm +1 on this logic.
> BTW -- is the larger fonts (and thus the wider search input field) on NS4
> just a fact of life?
looks like it. you could try to reduce the fonts in the preference.
> Oh, I just resized in NS4 and see that the site still falls apart -- that
> is all the text in the content section ends up in a single narrow long
> column. Was that decided that is also a fact of life? Maybe a solution
> there it so use javascript -- reload on resize?
To me now it's a fact of life. Our goal is to make the site look great
in modern and/or properly implemented browsers and
be usable in old and/or broken browsers. Currently NS4
is quite usable. It's definitely not pretty.
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Re: search box
Posted by Thomas Klausner <do...@zsi.at>.
Hi!
On Tue, Mar 05, 2002 at 06:25:56AM -0800, Bill Moseley wrote:
> Oh, I just resized in NS4 and see that the site still falls apart -- that
> is all the text in the content section ends up in a single narrow long
> column. Was that decided that is also a fact of life? Maybe a solution
> there it so use javascript -- reload on resize?
Thats a bug in NS4. I don't think it's a good idea to add the reload on
resize, thats going to affect all users (some pages are quite long and could
take a while to reload, and it's causing unneeded traffic), just to solve
a problem that's caused by someone else (i.e. NS4).
--
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O_xyderkes | neu: Arbeitsplatz |
M_echanen | http://domm.zsi.at/d/d162.html |
M_asteuei +--------------------------------+
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search box
Posted by Bill Moseley <mo...@hank.org>.
I don't care about the javascript. I go to google 20 or 30 times a day and
it's nice that I can just type and hit enter. If I really cared, I'd just
add a google search box to my browser, I suppose, and save the trip to
google in the first place. And I doubt having to click on the search box
will cause anyone any grief at the mod_perl site.
I do think it's a bit much to argue that because some javascript is bad all
javascript is bad - people that think that way can just turn off javascript
in their client. I think we will find that the CSS stuff is probably less
supported than a simple focus() javascript bit. But I would support a
pop-up window saying we are a pop-up window free site.
I do think standard form buttons are a bit big and ugly. If that search
box is going to be on the same line as the other widgets I agree it would
be nice to make it look the same.
Sorry if I missed something, but why not use <input type="image" ...>
submit button? Wouldn't that make it possible to make the search form look
more like the other links on that same line?
There was also talk of having an option to limit the search to just that
area of the document tree, which I've implemented on the search page, but
we would need a way to pick the type of search on each page, too. That
either means a checkbox, or a second submit button. Might be able to use
two submit buttons as graphic images in a more attractive (less obtrusive)
way than a real check box and a real submit form button.
BTW -- is the larger fonts (and thus the wider search input field) on NS4
just a fact of life?
Oh, I just resized in NS4 and see that the site still falls apart -- that
is all the text in the content section ends up in a single narrow long
column. Was that decided that is also a fact of life? Maybe a solution
there it so use javascript -- reload on resize?
--
Bill Moseley
mailto:moseley@hank.org
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RE: some patches
Posted by "Jonathan M. Hollin" <ne...@digital-word.com>.
:: As far as I know, a form-tag automatically adds some
:: whitespace (like a <p>
:: tag) around it's content.
Yes it does. I've noticed this behaviour too.
:: Another posibillity would be to define a style for form,
:: specifing top-margin:0px But IMO that's to hackish and might
:: brake some other stuff.
It shouldn't break anything if implemented properly. But, does it
matter? Remember: whitespace is GOOD. :-)
:: > > so i am +1 for skipping all this js
:: > +1 on js-clean.
:: +1 (me too)
+1 I suppose. But I don't think there's anything wrong with a little
JS here and there and errors can be suppressed with an "OnError"
handler. I think it's wrong when your site *depends* on JS (for
navigation, etc).
:: > we need a new button: 'JS-free site' ;)
:: I once made a button "image free website" (I think it's
:: displayed on my page), which I thought was rather funny,
:: because the button itself /is/ an image, causing a paradoxon...
ROTFLMAO
:: Maybe we should do a JS-Popup-Window containing the text
:: "JS-free site" :-)
No m8. Pop-under windows are the new THING. Pop-ups are old hat. ;-)
I'm awaiting the "pop-out and slap you around the face with a wet fish
ads" - these should be around in the next few weeks.
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Re: some patches
Posted by Thomas Klausner <do...@zsi.at>.
Hi!
On Tue, Mar 05, 2002 at 02:40:31PM +0800, Stas Bekman wrote:
> > that happened because of the "width" or rather "height" that
> > the form tag and hidden tags consume, so we ended up we a
> > "lot" of un-necesary whitespace.
> > for the above js-code to work we need to put the <form> tag
> > just next to the body start and end tags i think (ns4+) plus
> > replace some other stuff or position divs relative blah blah
> > endless blah ...:)
>
> so you say that there is no way to use a <form> inside some element
> without adding to its width? even if you have no spaces between form
As far as I know, a form-tag automatically adds some whitespace (like a <p>
tag) around it's content. The only way to ged rid of this is to put the
starting form tag somewhere it can cause no harm, as it is done here.
Another posibillity would be to define a style for form, specifing
top-margin:0px
But IMO that's to hackish and might brake some other stuff.
> > so i am +1 for skipping all this js
> +1 on js-clean.
+1 (me too)
> we need a new button: 'JS-free site' ;)
I once made a button "image free website" (I think it's displayed on my
page), which I thought was rather funny, because the button itself /is/ an
image, causing a paradoxon...
Maybe we should do a JS-Popup-Window containing the text "JS-free site" :-)
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Re: some patches
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
allan wrote:
>>Also, I was wondering why the <form> tag is in the "page" template instead
>>of just wrapped around the form in the "search" template? And then </form>
>>is in navbar_local_top. Why the separation of tags in different templates?
>>
>
> that happened because of the "width" or rather "height" that
> the form tag and hidden tags consume, so we ended up we a
> "lot" of un-necesary whitespace.
> for the above js-code to work we need to put the <form> tag
> just next to the body start and end tags i think (ns4+) plus
> replace some other stuff or position divs relative blah blah
> endless blah ...:)
so you say that there is no way to use a <form> inside some element
without adding to its width? even if you have no spaces between form
elements?
> so i am +1 for skipping all this js
>
> ./allan who think a "js-clean" site is simply too cool.
+1 on js-clean.
we need a new button: 'JS-free site' ;)
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Re: some patches
Posted by allan <la...@inet.uni2.dk>.
Bill Moseley wrote:
>
> At 10:47 AM 03/05/02 +0800, Stas Bekman wrote:
> >> Ok, I'll grab it from google later tonight when I get some time.
> >
> >Thanks
>
> Well, this seems to work in tmpl/custom/html/head
>
> <body background="[% doc.dir.abs_doc_root %]/images/bgline.gif"
> bgcolor="#ffffff" onLoad="document.forms[0].elements[0].focus()">
>
> I poked around a bit at Javascript sites and found out the real danger with
> Javascript -- all the Javascript sites have those damn pop-up ads.
first of all i dont think we should use js _at all_.
a) with all the absolute positioned divs we are going to
spend a lot of time to satisfy ns4 (others?)
b) why bother? yes we gain slightly on userbility, but what
if i hit enter and i am focused?
_if_ we want this functionality we should use a syntax like this:
onLoad="document.form_name.query.focus()"
if we add other forms or elemnts later we dont know
beforehand the index [0,1,2 etc].
besides that is more readable for humans maintaing the code :-)
> Also, I was wondering why the <form> tag is in the "page" template instead
> of just wrapped around the form in the "search" template? And then </form>
> is in navbar_local_top. Why the separation of tags in different templates?
that happened because of the "width" or rather "height" that
the form tag and hidden tags consume, so we ended up we a
"lot" of un-necesary whitespace.
for the above js-code to work we need to put the <form> tag
just next to the body start and end tags i think (ns4+) plus
replace some other stuff or position divs relative blah blah
endless blah ...:)
so i am +1 for skipping all this js
./allan who think a "js-clean" site is simply too cool.
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Re: some patches
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
Bill Moseley wrote:
> At 10:47 AM 03/05/02 +0800, Stas Bekman wrote:
>
>>>Ok, I'll grab it from google later tonight when I get some time.
> Well, this seems to work in tmpl/custom/html/head
>
> <body background="[% doc.dir.abs_doc_root %]/images/bgline.gif"
> bgcolor="#ffffff" onLoad="document.forms[0].elements[0].focus()">
>
> I poked around a bit at Javascript sites and found out the real danger with
> Javascript -- all the Javascript sites have those damn pop-up ads.
>
> Some recommend using a <script> section to define a function, and pointing
> onLoad to that function, but I don't know if that's really needed. I
> thought it worked on NS4 but doesn't seem like that on my version. But I
> don't know (or care to know) javascript.
I've placed this on TODO, will see if we put it in.
> Also, I was wondering why the <form> tag is in the "page" template instead
> of just wrapped around the form in the "search" template? And then </form>
> is in navbar_local_top. Why the separation of tags in different templates?
Allan said that it was screwing layout on some browsers. Allan? I'd
definitely prefer to have the search widget self-contained.
> Have a good day.
you mean good night ;) (to you)
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Re: some patches
Posted by Bill Moseley <mo...@hank.org>.
At 10:47 AM 03/05/02 +0800, Stas Bekman wrote:
>> Ok, I'll grab it from google later tonight when I get some time.
>
>Thanks
Well, this seems to work in tmpl/custom/html/head
<body background="[% doc.dir.abs_doc_root %]/images/bgline.gif"
bgcolor="#ffffff" onLoad="document.forms[0].elements[0].focus()">
I poked around a bit at Javascript sites and found out the real danger with
Javascript -- all the Javascript sites have those damn pop-up ads.
Some recommend using a <script> section to define a function, and pointing
onLoad to that function, but I don't know if that's really needed. I
thought it worked on NS4 but doesn't seem like that on my version. But I
don't know (or care to know) javascript.
Also, I was wondering why the <form> tag is in the "page" template instead
of just wrapped around the form in the "search" template? And then </form>
is in navbar_local_top. Why the separation of tags in different templates?
Have a good day.
--
Bill Moseley
mailto:moseley@hank.org
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Re: some patches
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
Bill Moseley wrote:
> At 09:54 AM 03/05/02 +0800, Stas Bekman wrote:
>
>>>Seems far more likely that CSS will mess up someone's browser ;). As Wim
>>>says, google uses it, and we all like google.
>>>
>>CSS may render pages in a weird way, but the site will be still usable.
>>I saw enough js that won't let me use the page and pop up js errors all
>>the time.
>>
>
> I think the focus javascript is reasonably safe -- it's not doing much.
>
>
>
>>thanks Bill, what others think?
>>in any case please send me the snippet I should add. depending on what
>>others think we decide whether we add it or not. sounds good?
>>
>
> Ok, I'll grab it from google later tonight when I get some time.
Thanks
> Also, what will it take to get the search working on the test site, Stas?
> Is there anything I need to do or help with?
Thanks Bill, I just didn't have a chance to work on making everything
work automatically yet (e.g. finding swish-e, etc.) I've merged your
patch, but need to tune it. Hopefully tonight I'll have some time.
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Re: some patches
Posted by Bill Moseley <mo...@hank.org>.
At 09:54 AM 03/05/02 +0800, Stas Bekman wrote:
>> Seems far more likely that CSS will mess up someone's browser ;). As Wim
>> says, google uses it, and we all like google.
>
>CSS may render pages in a weird way, but the site will be still usable.
>I saw enough js that won't let me use the page and pop up js errors all
>the time.
I think the focus javascript is reasonably safe -- it's not doing much.
>thanks Bill, what others think?
>in any case please send me the snippet I should add. depending on what
>others think we decide whether we add it or not. sounds good?
Ok, I'll grab it from google later tonight when I get some time.
Also, what will it take to get the search working on the test site, Stas?
Is there anything I need to do or help with?
Thanks,
--
Bill Moseley
mailto:moseley@hank.org
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Re: some patches
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
Bill Moseley wrote:
> At 11:59 PM 03/04/02 +0800, Stas Bekman wrote:
>
>>OK, I've brought the submit button back. Though I've called it 'go' and
>>left the search title in front. The best of all worlds? Or is it still
>>bad. Looks horrible in NS4, but I gave up on this one.
>>
>
> How about just a button that says "search"? I think whatever we do it
> people will figure it out. I think search and a go button is overkill.
ok
>>Tried that. but then it's not obvious that we have a button. I think if
>>we use a shorter submit button, like I've added it will not look too
>>outstanding/prominent.
>>
>
> At least it is a button, unlike the word "search".
>
>
>
>>>I have used javascript to place the cursor in the field before, and feel
>>>like that is a reasonable thing to do, as it doesn't really change what
>>>happens on the page if they don't have javascript enabled, and it means you
>>>can just type and hit enter.
>>>
>>do you really think it worth the risk of having js messing up someones
>>browser?
>>
>
> Seems far more likely that CSS will mess up someone's browser ;). As Wim
> says, google uses it, and we all like google.
CSS may render pages in a weird way, but the site will be still usable.
I saw enough js that won't let me use the page and pop up js errors all
the time.
>>Personally I'm used that most sites don't focus automatically, so I'm
>>always
>>clicking to focus anyway. Are you habits different?
>>
>
> On a page that has all hytertext and a single box, the focus is nice. A
> tiny problem is that if you hit enter it tries to search, when maybe you
> didn't intend to search.
>
> Depends on the site, and how you are using it. For me, I would often times
> go to perl.apache.org, and do a search first thing, since I typically know
> (or think I know) what I'm looking for. So in that case it's nice not to
> have to click in the box first.
thanks Bill, what others think?
in any case please send me the snippet I should add. depending on what
others think we decide whether we add it or not. sounds good?
_____________________________________________________________________
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http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide
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Re: some patches
Posted by Bill Moseley <mo...@hank.org>.
At 11:59 PM 03/04/02 +0800, Stas Bekman wrote:
>OK, I've brought the submit button back. Though I've called it 'go' and
>left the search title in front. The best of all worlds? Or is it still
>bad. Looks horrible in NS4, but I gave up on this one.
How about just a button that says "search"? I think whatever we do it
people will figure it out. I think search and a go button is overkill.
>Tried that. but then it's not obvious that we have a button. I think if
>we use a shorter submit button, like I've added it will not look too
>outstanding/prominent.
At least it is a button, unlike the word "search".
>> I have used javascript to place the cursor in the field before, and feel
>> like that is a reasonable thing to do, as it doesn't really change what
>> happens on the page if they don't have javascript enabled, and it means you
>> can just type and hit enter.
>
>do you really think it worth the risk of having js messing up someones
>browser?
Seems far more likely that CSS will mess up someone's browser ;). As Wim
says, google uses it, and we all like google.
>Personally I'm used that most sites don't focus automatically, so I'm
>always
>clicking to focus anyway. Are you habits different?
On a page that has all hytertext and a single box, the focus is nice. A
tiny problem is that if you hit enter it tries to search, when maybe you
didn't intend to search.
Depends on the site, and how you are using it. For me, I would often times
go to perl.apache.org, and do a search first thing, since I typically know
(or think I know) what I'm looking for. So in that case it's nice not to
have to click in the box first.
--
Bill Moseley
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Re: some patches
Posted by Wim Kerkhoff <wi...@merilus.com>.
Stas Bekman wrote:
>
> OK, I've brought the submit button back. Though I've called it 'go' and
> left the search title in front. The best of all worlds? Or is it still
> bad. Looks horrible in NS4, but I gave up on this one.
>
> Try it here:
> http://www.apache.org/~stas/modperl-site/
IMO, it doesn't look that bad in NS4... see the attached cropped shot.
> > I have used javascript to place the cursor in the field before, and feel
> > like that is a reasonable thing to do, as it doesn't really change what
> > happens on the page if they don't have javascript enabled, and it means you
> > can just type and hit enter.
>
> do you really think it worth the risk of having js messing up someones
> browser?
> Personally I'm used that most sites don't focus automatically, so I'm
> always
> clicking to focus anyway. Are you habits different?
Google uses this method, and nobody complains about it ;-)
Wim
Re: some patches
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
Bill Moseley wrote:
> At 10:07 PM 3/2/2002 -0000, Jonathan M. Hollin wrote:
>
>
>>1) I don't think it's intuitive. The "Press enter" text in the search
>>field is not 100% explanatory - I think it could be misinterpreted (e.g:
>>"So I press "enter" and that will let me search"); but when I press
>>"enter" nothing happens at all, only after I have moved focus to the
>>text field is "enter" activated. Now, we are all familiar with this
>>behaviour, but some might not be.
>>
>>2) Where's the button? On web forms, we are all used to seeing a
>>"submit" button in one guise or another. It's not here!!! Suddenly I
>>have to unlearn what I know and learn a new methodology. That's not
>>good.
>>
>
> I brought this up too. I think the use of images for buttons is common
> enough on other sites that we could go that way.
OK, I've brought the submit button back. Though I've called it 'go' and
left the search title in front. The best of all worlds? Or is it still
bad. Looks horrible in NS4, but I gave up on this one.
Try it here:
http://www.apache.org/~stas/modperl-site/
> Or, if you want a real form button you can add something like
>
> style="font-size: 8px; border: 1px black solid"
>
> to both the button and the text field to make them look a little less
> form-like (or less prominent).
Tried that. but then it's not obvious that we have a button. I think if
we use a shorter submit button, like I've added it will not look too
outstanding/prominent.
> I have used javascript to place the cursor in the field before, and feel
> like that is a reasonable thing to do, as it doesn't really change what
> happens on the page if they don't have javascript enabled, and it means you
> can just type and hit enter.
do you really think it worth the risk of having js messing up someones
browser?
Personally I'm used that most sites don't focus automatically, so I'm
always
clicking to focus anyway. Are you habits different?
_____________________________________________________________________
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RE: some patches
Posted by Bill Moseley <mo...@hank.org>.
At 10:07 PM 3/2/2002 -0000, Jonathan M. Hollin wrote:
>1) I don't think it's intuitive. The "Press enter" text in the search
>field is not 100% explanatory - I think it could be misinterpreted (e.g:
>"So I press "enter" and that will let me search"); but when I press
>"enter" nothing happens at all, only after I have moved focus to the
>text field is "enter" activated. Now, we are all familiar with this
>behaviour, but some might not be.
>
>2) Where's the button? On web forms, we are all used to seeing a
>"submit" button in one guise or another. It's not here!!! Suddenly I
>have to unlearn what I know and learn a new methodology. That's not
>good.
I brought this up too. I think the use of images for buttons is common
enough on other sites that we could go that way.
Or, if you want a real form button you can add something like
style="font-size: 8px; border: 1px black solid"
to both the button and the text field to make them look a little less
form-like (or less prominent).
I have used javascript to place the cursor in the field before, and feel
like that is a reasonable thing to do, as it doesn't really change what
happens on the page if they don't have javascript enabled, and it means you
can just type and hit enter.
Bill Moseley
mailto:moseley@hank.org
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Re: some patches
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
Jonathan M. Hollin wrote:
> :: I tested before and after the patch with all browsers (see
> :: above), looks great on all of them!
>
> I hope it's not too late in the day to bring this up
nope, it's not too late. Ideally we should finish everything during this
week. So if you have any problems please let us know.
> , but the search
> element really bothers me...
>
> 1) I don't think it's intuitive. The "Press enter" text in the search
> field is not 100% explanatory - I think it could be misinterpreted (e.g:
> "So I press "enter" and that will let me search"); but when I press
> "enter" nothing happens at all, only after I have moved focus to the
> text field is "enter" activated. Now, we are all familiar with this
> behaviour, but some might not be.
>
> 2) Where's the button? On web forms, we are all used to seeing a
> "submit" button in one guise or another. It's not here!!! Suddenly I
> have to unlearn what I know and learn a new methodology. That's not
> good.
>
> BUT: I've missed a lot over the last few weeks (pressures of work), so
> if this issue is (or has been) addressed then please delete and ignore
> this rant (you may also fire a small thermonuclear warhead at my house
> if it pleases you).
Yup, we are aware of this problem. What you see is just a try.
We tried the submit button, but on certain platforms/browsers that was
ugly.
We tried to use submit image (to keep the button small and nice),
but then the 'ENTER to submit' feature won't work on all platforms
without clicking
on the button.
I guess we will go back to the submit HTML button in the end.
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RE: some patches
Posted by "Jonathan M. Hollin" <ne...@digital-word.com>.
:: I tested before and after the patch with all browsers (see
:: above), looks great on all of them!
I hope it's not too late in the day to bring this up, but the search
element really bothers me...
1) I don't think it's intuitive. The "Press enter" text in the search
field is not 100% explanatory - I think it could be misinterpreted (e.g:
"So I press "enter" and that will let me search"); but when I press
"enter" nothing happens at all, only after I have moved focus to the
text field is "enter" activated. Now, we are all familiar with this
behaviour, but some might not be.
2) Where's the button? On web forms, we are all used to seeing a
"submit" button in one guise or another. It's not here!!! Suddenly I
have to unlearn what I know and learn a new methodology. That's not
good.
BUT: I've missed a lot over the last few weeks (pressures of work), so
if this issue is (or has been) addressed then please delete and ignore
this rant (you may also fire a small thermonuclear warhead at my house
if it pleases you).
Jonathan M. Hollin - WYPUG Co-ordinator
West Yorkshire Perl User Group
http://wypug.pm.org/
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