Re: [discuss] How we support our users on Slack / Mailing list / StackOverflow

[Pablo Estrada <pa...@google.com>]

Hi all,
I've a pull request[1] to try to improve how the Beam site guides people to
these channels. Would someone take a look?

The PR encourages users to use SO and user@. Depending on others' opinion,
we can also mention slack.
The PR also attempts to improve the bottom links on the website for users
looking for Events and/or Support.

[1] - https://github.com/apache/beam/pull/9875

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 8:28 AM Ismaël Mejía <ie...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Sorry for late answer. The issue here is that once we have a
> communication channel, users expect
> answers on it. Python SDK is getting momentum and we need to serve users
> where
> they are (as mentioned by others above).
>
> One strong advantage of 'real-time' communication (Slack/IRC) is that it is
> better suited for collaboration, and to create community bonds, think for
> example of how many people who answered a question you were looking for at
> stackoverflow you can remember by their 'name', versus the people with
> whom you
> have interacted in a short conversation in an IRC-like channel. I mention
> this
> because this is a way to make users welcomed and many times a first step
> towards
> contribution (for example the 'would you be willing to add this to the docs
> case').
>
> StackOverflow is probably the most 'scalable' system because of many
> aspects
> like being indexed in a better way by search engines helping future users
> to
> find answers quickly, but it is also not perfect, the reputation system is
> basically elitist against casual people answering questions. In any case
> there
> is value in encouraging moving some answers from Slack to SO, but there is
> also
> value in improving our own website docs so this should probably be done
> case by
> case.
>
> A first approach is probably to document (and recommend) to users that if
> they
> don't get their questions answered in slack to better ask in SO or the user
> mailing list.
>
> I personally think there is value in getting more people involved in
> 'real-time'
> communications. Of course this is probably not for everyone, I understand
> that
> people may not want to do this to avoid being interrupted or for other
> reasons,
> but this is a trade-off to pay not only to help people but eventually to
> grow the community as in the go-lang case Robert mentioned so it is
> probably
> worth considering.
>
> On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 3:27 AM Robert Burke <ro...@frantil.com> wrote:
> >
> > For the Go SDK, emailing the dev list or asking on Slack are probably
> the best ways to get an answer from me. I'm not in the habit to search for
> open Go SDK questions on stack overflow right now, but will chip in if
> they're pointed out to me
> >
> > As Alexey mentions, Slack largely works for quick back and forths with
> community members, especially if both folks are awake at the same time. Eg.
> I've been handling a few questions there, and helping the user in question
> even get a few quick fix PRs in, making the SDK better for everyone.
> > On the other hand, I can be more responsive on beam-go because it's low
> enough traffic I can be notified of every question/response. I look forward
> to when there's enough traffic there I can turn that off. :D
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 10, 2019, 4:45 PM Alexey Romanenko <ar...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Pablo, thank you for raising this question.
> >>
> >> I can’t say for Python, but as a someone, who tries to keep an eye on
> Java SDK related questions on ML/Slack/SO for a while, I’d say that Slack
> is not very effective for this.
> >> There are several reasons for that:
> >> - People tend to expect a quick feedback on Slack which is not
> happening all the time, especially, for not evident questions where you
> need some time to provide an answer. Also, timezones difference play its
> role in terms of reaction time.
> >> - Discussions are not always happened inside Slack threads, so it could
> be messed up with the messages of other questions/topics and it becomes
> difficult to follow.
> >> - It’s not so easy to search for similar issues and provide quick link
> with already answered question.
> >>
> >> So, I’d say that Slack is perfect to discuss quick and urgent questions
> but not sure it should be placed on the first place as a users support
> thing. IMHO, we need to redirect users to user@ or SO for that (up to
> them to choose). Though, the more important thing is to regulalrly keep
> track of non answered questions there and do our best to minimise this
> number.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 9 Sep 2019, at 11:38, Kyle Weaver <kc...@google.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I pinned a message to #beam reminding people of the user@, but pinned
> messages aren't immediately visible. We might be better off editing the
> topic, which always appears at the top of the channel, to include
> https://beam.apache.org/community/contact-us/ or links to user@ and SO.
> We should also add the same topic to the #beam-java and #beam-python
> channels, which currently don't have any topic.
> >>
> >> Kyle Weaver | Software Engineer | github.com/ibzib |
> kcweaver@google.com
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 9:06 AM Pablo Estrada <pa...@google.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> +Ismaël Mejía can you share your impressions from Slack? Do you think
> Java/Python/other users get appropriate support there?
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 7:16 PM Ahmet Altay <al...@google.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I agree Slack can be used by Beam users and it would be good to meet
> users where they are. If I understand correctly, the issue Pablo is raising
> is that there are not enough people online in Slack that can answer python
> questions. We also need to help people who ask questions and who can answer
> them find a common platform. Perhaps simply adding a subject in Slack chat
> rooms suggesting SO as an alternative question asking platform might
> improve the situation.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 5:45 PM Austin Bennett <
> whatwouldaustindo@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I see no reason slack can't be suitable for Beam users -- other open
> source projects do utilize Slack for user chatter, too.  Though what it
> could be is different from how currently used.  There are 173 accounts in
> #beam-python, and a decent portion of recent conversations (at quick
> glance) look like they are users asking for advice (which maybe should be
> pointed to the Google Cloud Slack account...)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I suggest meet users wherever they are (don't abandon slack), but
> that is from a community standpoint.  If people are metrics focused, that
> might be harder in slack and/or we can find ways to measure things for
> those that have benchmarks to hit.  I am willing to dig into Slack's API if
> desired, to surface/forward messages as useful.  Not sure how all that
> would look, open to figure it out.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:47 PM Ahmet Altay <al...@google.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Both StackOverflow and mailing lists have better answer rates for
> python questions. Suggesting either one of them makes sense. I also find
> StackOverflow easier to use but that is a personal preference.  The
> original problem is that lack of support within Slack. Both mailing list
> and stackoverflow are already listed in the support page above Slack. How
> are we going to redirect these folks from Slack to SO or ML?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Also, what is the profile of people on slack in general. I had the
> impression that it is more tuned for developer working on Beam to interact
> rather than for users to ask Beam questions. Is this accurate?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Ahmet
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:41 PM Kenneth Knowles <ke...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> +1 to StackOverflow first, though I'm not important for Beam
> Python users. Udi has a good point about discussions. If an SO question has
> a lot of back and forth, or no response, then it is good to point to other
> channels the user might try next.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Kenn
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 2:20 PM Robert Bradshaw <
> robertwb@google.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I would also suggest SO as the best alternative, especially due
> to its
> >>>>>>>> indexability and searchability. If discussion is needed, the users
> >>>>>>>> list (my preference) or slack can be good options, and ideally the
> >>>>>>>> resolution is brought back to SO.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 1:10 PM Udi Meiri <eh...@google.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>> > I don't go on Slack, but I will be notified of mentions. It has
> the advantage of being an informal space.
> >>>>>>>> > SO can feel just as intimidating as the mailing list IMO.
> Unlike the others, it doesn't lend itself very well to discussions (you can
> only post comments or answers).
> >>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>> > On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 10:55 AM Pablo Estrada <
> pabloem@google.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>> >> Hello all,
> >>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>> >> THE SITUATION:
> >>>>>>>> >> It was brought to my attention recently that Python users in
> Slack are not getting much support, because most of the Beam
> Python-knowledgeable people are not on Slack. Unfortunately, in the Beam
> site, we do refer people to Slack for assistance[1].
> >>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>> >> Java users do receive reasonable support, because there are
> enough Beam Java-knowledgeable people online, and willing to answer.
> >>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>> >> On the other hand, at Google we do have a number of people who
> are responsible to answer questions on StackOverflow[2], and we do our best
> to answer promptly. I think we do a reasonable job overall.
> >>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>> >> SO LET'S DISCUSS:
> >>>>>>>> >> How should we advise the community to ask questions about Beam?
> >>>>>>>> >> - Perhaps we should encourage people to try the mailing list
> first
> >>>>>>>> >> - Perhaps we should encourage people to try StackOverflow first
> >>>>>>>> >> - Perhaps we should write a bot that encourages Python users
> to go to StackOverflow
> >>>>>>>> >> - something else?
> >>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>> >> My personal opinion is that a mailing list is not great: It's
> intimidating, it does not provide great indexing or searchability.
> >>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>> >> WHAT I PROPOSE:
> >>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>> >> I think explicitly encouraging everyone to go to StackOverflow
> first will be the best alternative: It's indexed, searchable, less
> intimidating than the mailing list. We can add that they can try Slack as
> well - without any guarantees.
> >>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>> >> What do others think?
> >>>>>>>> >> -P.
> >>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>> >> [1] https://beam.apache.org/community/contact-us/
> >>>>>>>> >> [2]
> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/apache-beam?tab=Newest
> >>
> >>
>